Nara Smith: Stop Calling Me a Tradwife

Speaker 1 What is up Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy Daddy Daddy. Nara Smith, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Speaker 2 I'm so excited. Speaker 1 I am so excited to talk with you today. You are one of the most talked about people on the Internet, whether you are making potentially Skittles from scratch. Speaker 2 We're getting there. Speaker 1 We're getting there. You're in full couture in the kitchen. You really are at the center of so many conversations when it comes to womanhood, motherhood, family. And so I just, I can't wait to get into all of it with you today. Speaker 2 Let's. Speaker 1 Do it Nara. Recently you shared online that your daughter Wimzie was diagnosed with cancer. And 1st, I just want to say like, I am so sorry for what you and your daughter and your family are going through. I truly cannot imagine. So just like all the condolences sent your way, something that I really was struck by is that when you shared it online, you kind of talked about how you were hoping that sharing would allow other families to maybe feel less alone and be able to feel like there are other people going through what you're going through. And I thought that was really beautiful. And I hope that maybe our conversation today can give a little bit of that to anyone watching too. Speaker 2 Yeah, I hope that too. I think there's something so beautiful and grounding and supportive about having a community and you feel like when something bad happens in your life that it's usually a very isolating experience to where you feel like no one else would get it or no one really understands or all these different things. But the more time I spend in the hospital and kind of seeking that community myself, the more I realized that there's actually a lot more parents going through the exact same thing, maybe in different ways, but essentially the same thing as me. And I think also by sharing it, it opened up that whole world to me to where my DMS were flooded with parents going through the same thing and being really consolidated almost by what I posted. So. Speaker 1 I can't even imagine and I think that's going to be a huge topic today is like so much of your life is online, obviously. And we'll get to that 'cause you didn't you, you chose to share it at a very specific time, obviously. But let's go back to the beginning, OK? Because I was thinking about it this morning and I'm like. Speaker 2 What were you? Speaker 1 Thinking about I was like, I feel like everyone remembers the first Nara Smith video they saw, so. Speaker 2 What was your one? Speaker 1 Mine was like you were in your old kitchen. Speaker 2 Oh yeah, the Dallas. Speaker 1 One, you did the classic like my husband said he was hungry for, and I literally just looked and I was like, Oh my God. But I feel like everyone has that core memory of like, I know I remember when she first popped on the scene for me. But to anyone who maybe lives under a rock that is watching this, can you explain what people can expect in one of your videos? Speaker 2 I think it's all it's, it was born out of this very, it was very coincidental. Like we OK, so let me go back. I had my second son, my first son, my second baby, and I was feeling really crappy and I didn't know what was going on. So I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and my eczema started flaring up really bad to the point where I genuinely felt crippled by it because I couldn't really go out. I couldn't use my hands. I couldn't brush my hair. It was this, the Bob also came from that because I was like, I can't do my curls anymore because of all these health issues. So then I also, not being from America, I didn't quite know what it meant eating processed food here because a lot of ingredients in our food are not good for us. So then I kind of did so much research to the point where I was like, OK, well, I guess I'll just have to make everything from scratch because that feels the safest to me. So I started doing that and then got on TikTok and started sharing that. And that's when the whole situation kind of happened. And then during COVID, I couldn't really wear any of my fun outfits anywhere, so I decided to wear them in the kitchen. My daughters loved it. And it was just this thing that kind of happened. And then the voice, I think there's like components to my content. It's the cooking from scratch. And then there's the fashion and then there's the voice. And all of these pieces were born individually. Like the voice came from me having put my baby down. And I was like, I've just spent so much time putting you down, there's no way I'm going to jeopardize waking you up. Speaker 1 But we got Mom's got to work. Speaker 2 But I, I got to get this video up. I take no days off, so we just got to make it happen. So I spoke really softly and quietly and I didn't wake my kid up. And then I posted it and then that's how the voice kind of came about. So everything was born out of this like really innocent place. It's. Speaker 1 Really crazy to know, because I feel like everyone knows that voice and even people have recreated it. Obviously, like now people do their Nara Smith voice. And it's wild to be like, you were just like, quickly, like, oh, I got to get this up and I'm just going to whisper. But then after that, you're like, OK, people clearly like it now I'm going to give it to them. Yeah. Because sometimes you don't always do the voice right. Speaker 2 When I do so, when I do my voice over, usually I do the voice. And then when I do talking directly to camera, it's usually my normal voice. Yeah. And then people always say you're yelling at us. I'm like, I'm so. Speaker 1 Sorry, like I'm just talking normal but you're used to. Okay, What post do you remember first going viral? Speaker 2 It was this one post where we had a bunch of Peaches at home and my kids actually wanted bread and jam right every. Like my kids love bread and jam. So I was like OK great, let me just make bread for the first time on camera, why not? So I did, and that was the first video that kind of popped off because I was like, my kids stumbled into my room asking me for bread and jam, and they actually did. Did it take hours to make? Yeah. Did they still enjoy it and ask for it? Yes. So that was the first video. And then after that, I didn't really tap into it for a while. I kind of just sprinkled it in because I didn't quite realize that people would want that. And then I kind of just continue doing it. Speaker 1 So it started a little bit as like a this just so happened and you're like kind of obviously recognizing, OK, people like a little bit of this, a little bit of this. But like you now have gone on to create and curate such specific branded world. When do you think this clear vision kind of came to fruition for you where you were like, this is a business for me and I actually can execute this on a level that's not just like a fun happen chance thing? Speaker 2 I think it kind of took a minute. I was, Everything kind of went insanely viral when I was pregnant with my third baby, Whimsy. And I didn't really see it as a business. I was like, oh, great, I'm earning, like I'm earning money. All of a sudden I can do this. But I never thought about it as anything bigger. But then obviously the more I did it and the more deals came in and the more conversations I kind of had with my agents at the time, the more I kind of realized, oh, I could actually do this as a job and have the flexibility of being at home with my kids and kind of figuring that part out. And then obviously now it's evolved into this full scale business that I'm still executing myself, which is crazy. Like I film, I pick the outfits, I pick the recipe, I film it myself on a tripod, I edit it myself. And then when the kids go to sleep, I do the voice over, get it up the next day. So it's basically a one man show, women show. And yeah, it's been, it's been really eye opening to now be able to basically do whatever I feel like. It's really fun. Speaker 1 Obviously, because again, it's starting as this like fun side thing. Do you remember the moment where you sat down with your husband and you were like, I think I really want to lean in and like fully put time and effort into this in a business capacity, not just like a, oh, I actually have some time on Sunday. Let's do this. Like, do you remember when you had that type of conversation together? Speaker 2 Yeah, we had that conversation in my first kitchen that you probably remember, but I think it was more so him. He was like, you know, you can just do this. And I'm like, yeah, I guess. And he's like, no, like you actually can. And that's, I think those conversations kind of happened, but I think they kind of happened naturally because I'm a very ambitious and driven and hard working woman to where there was no option but to film and get the video up. So it wasn't even a conversation where I was asking for permission or asking for anything really. I was just like, well, got to watch the kids, Hun, because I got a film and that happened more and more and he's like, well, can you maybe come up with a better schedule 'cause this seems a little hectic. I'm like, yeah, OK, but I think it just kind of organically happened, but there was no other option in my mind, 'cause if I do something, I do it. So. Speaker 1 I love that so much. I love that you're like lucky, sorry, but like, get on board. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Can we talk about making something from scratch is one thing. Miss Nara Smith. Speaker 2 What are you going to tell me? Speaker 1 But then you look at things that you've made from scratch, OK, And we've got we've got cough drops, we've got cereal, we've got chewing gum. I. Speaker 2 Love a good homemade gum, no? Speaker 1 No, the chewing gum. I was like, I can't believe this woman. No, I, I, I was like, there's there's no way. And I think that's how some people feel. They're like, is she actually being serious? Is this real? Does she actually make it homemade? Like I, I, I guess my question is like, how intentional are you about selecting recipes that you know people will have the reaction had where you're like, no. Speaker 2 Way. I think it really depends. It sometimes gets born out of me seeing something at the grocery store and being like, can I make this at home? Sometimes it's Lucky telling me, oh, I really want you to make me talkies. Like, do you think you can do that? Because he's obsessed, like obsessed with talkies. So I'm like, I'll make it for you. Or I think about these random things and challenge myself. So it kind of is. And sometimes I'm like, I think this would be really fun. So it really is this like it's a mix of different things. Speaker 1 OK, that's fair. Your fashion choices have evolved. I feel like when I was looking back at your earlier videos it was like a cute. Speaker 2 It was very cute. Speaker 1 Like dress sometimes a little apron on. More realistic, I guess you could say. Now, obviously, we're hitting full couture in the kitchen, baby. The gloves. The one with the gloves. Speaker 2 The scalp gloves, the ones with the nails, I was terrified of ruining them. I'm like, I'm so sorry Daniel. Just making some red pudding. Speaker 1 It is crazy, though, to see that evolution. Can you talk to me, though about those beginning days of yes, I know you said like I wasn't getting to wear any of my cute outfits out of COVID. You know, you're in your kitchen, but like, did you also have any understanding of the way that you were presenting and what you wanted to present as as a woman in these videos that you were making? Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that one's a tricky question because at the time when everything kind of started for me, I was pregnant. So I'm the type of person I will never buy maternity clothes. I refuse. I'm not going to do that. But that was just me. I didn't want to do that ever. So. And I was a very like jeans and like T-shirt type girl. Obviously I loved my fashion, but I was also St. style girl when I lived in Europe before. So I told Lucky when we dated, I was like, I'm never going to wear a dress, like good luck. And then when I was pregnant with my third, I was like, well, can't really wear my pants, I guess dresses. And then those were the dresses that I would naturally gravitate towards, like the very cute. I felt very feminine during that pregnancy. So that's kind of what I naturally gravitated towards. And that kind of expressed itself in the cute collars and the very feminine looking dresses that I guess people connected with different things. But that wasn't like intentional. It was more so I was pregnant, I needed to wear a dress and I felt very like whimsical and feminine during that. So that's kind of what my fashion choices reflected. And I didn't fit a lot of like, couture dresses because I had a bump. Speaker 1 You had a bump that that's where and I'm sure you can kind of. Speaker 2 Yeah, let's get into. Speaker 1 It I can feel, you can probably feel where I'm going with this girl because I'm like, there was an image that started to be created. And while people loved your content, I think a larger conversation really started to bud from Nara Smith and who she was and what she was standing for and what she was representing for women. What do you remember just about the early commentary around you and your brand and your videos? Speaker 2 I at that point I was very much online, so I would read the comments. I'd be like, well this is weird because I don't feel like that and my reality is so different to what people are assuming based off of the 1 1/2 minute videos they see. So I was very confused where that conversation came from. But then the more I like read about it, I'm like, you know what? Yeah, but I'm also correcting the narrative. But you're not listening, so. Speaker 1 Yeah, so let's call it what it is. So people started to compare you to trad wife and people were kind of abused. Speaker 2 Me as the poster child for the trad wife movement, which was very bizarre to me. Speaker 1 Why was that bizarre to you? Speaker 2 It was bizarre to me for a multitude of reasons, but let's you know what? Let's Google what the definition of a trad wife is. Speaker 1 Well, that's perfect. I'm actually going to ask you, what do you consider a trad wife? Speaker 2 Well, I had to look up the term because because I wasn't familiar with that, right? I didn't quite know what it means, but the fast answer is a trad wife is a woman who embraces or promotes a traditional model of marriage and family life, where she typically prioritizes being a homemaker and a primary caregiver for kids. Takes primary responsibility for cooking, cleaning and managing the household. Supports her husband's role as the primary breadwinner. Often values traditional gender roles within marriage. So with that definition and those points, I'm none of that and we can go through it point by point. I don't prioritize being a homemaker. I'm a working mom like I am out in Lai, travel a lot. I sure do. I love cooking because it's my passion and because I kind of have to do it given my autoimmune. Absolutely. But that's a passion of mine. It's a hobby. It's not something that I need to be doing. For what? Right. Speaker 1 Right. Keep going. I like this. You know this is good. Speaker 2 Primary caregiver for my kids, No, my husband and I split it 5050. Like when he works, I watch them, when I work, he watches them. And now given everything that's been going on, we also have help. My mom's out. We have someone that helps us with the kids because it's just not doable for me to do it all. So that doesn't really work, right. Takes primary responsibility for cooking, cleaning and managing the household. Yeah, I like to cook. OK, sue me. I like to cook. My husband burns everything apart from a good steak, so he'll do that. But I like cooking, so I'm doing it. Household and cleaning. He does the dishes. I don't touch the dishes. There's no way you're going to see me washing and scrubbing the dishes. Also, he cleans our house because he grew up, he grew. Speaker 1 Best lucky. Speaker 2 His mom was like very, very specific with cleaning to where they had like Saturday crew and like he has sisters. So like someone was in charge of the baseboard, someone was in charge of the toilet, someone was in charge of this. So he's like very like specific with how things need to be cleaned. So he does it perfect. So that doesn't make any sense. Supports the husband's role as the primary breadwinner. No, we both work like that. That doesn't make any sense. Like I provide for our family. Speaker 1 So really I think what's happening is they're taking the image of a woman in a kitchen in a gorgeous dress and they are assuming that this is your life and we are going back in time and this is like a very traditional I. Speaker 2 Think there's also a bigger conversation to be had because everything that I've been reading online, I find it very concerning almost that we need to put women in very specific, very narrow boxes in order to make sense of them. I don't think so Why can't we do it all? Why can't we be a working mom that enjoys cooking, that enjoys being at home and taking care of our kids, but also is on the next plane out to LA to take business meetings with big executives? Like, why, why, why is why can't that coexist? And I think that's something that's very concerning to me, that a woman can't exist under any terms but the little boxes we put them in. Speaker 1 And, you know, media literacy is another issue, but it's like, I do think that you are creating a brand, right? And so you're seeing consistently that something is working. And I guess when I think about that, though, some people could argue, OK, well, the way that you're presenting, we're only really seeing for a while. One version of you, which is a lot of the videos you started with is saying, like, my husband is craving this, so I'm going to make him this. And so it leaves a lot of room for assumptions, right? Well, she looks like she's wearing the dress. She looks this way. She's making this for her husband. And so some people could argue, well, for a while, we didn't see the business side of you. We didn't know any of this. So we were assuming that you're just like stuck in the kitchen making these things. But obviously now as you've opened up more, like we're getting to know a little bit more about you. So did you at all see why people could think that way in the beginning? Speaker 2 Yeah, 100%. How did you? Speaker 1 To deal with that though. Speaker 2 Crying to my husband and be like, what is happening? Did they not know that I worked as a model? I've been working since I've been 14. Like all these things. But I think I I am very fair and compassionate. Like I understand where that can come from. But then the more that narrative started swelling, I was like, well, let me say something. So I remember posting this video of this like morning routine and my voiceover was me being a working mom and traveling and kind of debunking all of that. But then a lot of the comments were still that narrative, and I realized that a lot of the people that are very, very stuck in this narrative do not want to be too corrected. Speaker 1 They don't want to hear that. Speaker 2 There was this one situation with someone on my team where we were trying to work with this person and the person was like, I don't care what you say, what you do, what you show me, what Forbes articles you, you show me of her business. Like she is a trad wife to me and I don't want to work with her. So that kind of opened my eyes as well to the like to the opposite end of, I think I could sit here all day and try to try to debunk this narrative when some people, not everyone, but some people just don't want to be corrected. Speaker 1 No, they don't. And I also think there is a frustration around people want something to just be at face value what it is. And and some people are really lazy and don't have any interest in getting underneath something. And you can even go all the way back to the beginning days for caller daddy. For me, like the girl that only talks about sex, like, of course there's more to me. And I of course saw like there was something in the market that there was no one talking about it in the way that it would like. There's so much more. But I think when you it's easier to kind of like pigeonhole a woman and kind of keep her in that lane, I also think it's very threatening to be honest, to think of you as more than just like a very gorgeous woman who is making these, like, concoctions that are so extravagant. You're also a businesswoman and you're fully aware of what you're doing and you're editing it. You're putting it together. Like then you're the whole package. And we don't like that as a woman because then you're a threat, right? And so that's so interesting that that woman was like, I don't want to hear. Speaker 2 It was actually a guy well, but the women aren't different. Like I've stumbled across a fair amount of women that like are exactly like that. So I think it's not very gender specific. I think there's just a bigger issue as a society that we have. Speaker 1 Can you talk to me about in a in a cute way? Obviously like I referenced, there's a lot of videos that you were like, my husband is craving this, I'm going to make it. What do you think early days? Because I do think we've gotten to know you and Lucky a little bit more and that just happens sometimes with time. And yes, unfortunately you lightly having to share a little bit more. But like early days, what were some misconceptions you felt about you and your husband and those dynamics? And how did that impact you behind the camera with the two of you? Speaker 2 I I don't really know exactly what those misconceptions are because I kind of took a step back from the Internet. But I think one of them is obviously the trad wife narrative that there's like very specific gender roles. Like, do I like my husband filling up my gas tank? Absolutely. Do I like all these things that like, I don't want to be doing? Yeah, I don't want to close my own suitcase, do it for me. But I think that there was all this like misconception around, like him being this very specific dominant male person when behind the scenes, it's not like that. So we were always like, we've always been very like equal and like understanding of each other and like there was always a conversation that we had. So I never felt like whatever the public saw was what was going on. Speaker 1 Interesting I OK, so something I took from your book that was interesting I'm also congratulations. It's beautiful homemade. We're going to talk more about it, but something you said is a lot of what I do is tongue in cheek, I push buttons, I follow instincts. Can we talk about leaning in? Because I'm like, I think there's a version of like, you know, it's working. And even if it's pissing people off, like you're still going to put on the dress and it's going to look like it's going to look. And how do you balance that? Because I think that there are some people that can say, OK, you clearly are aware that like people are assuming this looks little trad wifey, right? And so some people can say, well, she's leaning in and she's it's brilliant. She's making money off of it, but she knows who she is clearly. And then other people could say it is regressive. Like how are you toeing that line? Speaker 2 I think I've also evolved in my personal style, like obviously during my pregnancy is it was very feminine and kind of leaning towards that aesthetic. But now not being pregnant, I fit all my sample size clothes. So let me just go do that. And now it's like now I don't necessarily see where the that trad wife angle is coming from because I don't think a trad wife would be cooking in like Schiaparelli, you know, or a mosquito look straight off the runway. Like I don't think that's what a trad wife would do. So now I understand it even less. So that's like a little tricky, but I feel like, you know, let them think what they're going to think because also. Speaker 1 It is interesting. I feel like I've had a lot of fascinating conversations with women in this room where it's like we are all aware of the society we are still living in and the double standards for women. And I, I think it really paints the picture of like hearing about that reporter, the Nara Smith who came on the scene and there were a lot of misconceptions there. You're never going to change specific people's opinions. They will always remember you as just that girl. I am still labeled sometimes like the girl that talked about blow jobs or whatever. And I'm like, Oh my God, that was a decade ago. I wow, it's crazy. Like, and I've interviewed all these different people and very. Speaker 2 Detachment from what the the public perception is. So sometimes I don't even really. Speaker 1 Recognize it. But I think what's interesting is there's also the debate about being a woman and finding that perfect balance of like recognizing, well, why don't, why don't I just lean in because if this is the society we live in and this is what's happening, but not losing yourself in it. So like, I, I think that's where there's a lot of nuance to it, I guess is what I'm saying. And so the voice and the dresses, it's smart you're monetizing off of this thing. And I get people who don't understand the nuance can just be enraged in the capacity that is lightly pushing on the boundary of like with the grey area people like the grey area Nara. Speaker 2 But I feel like I don't mind being in the grey area. Like it's, I've kind of detached myself from what the public perception is because I know I'm not that. And I feel like, here's the thing, I tried so hard to correct the narrative, right? People didn't want to listen. I'm still kind of, I'm like, this is not what I am. So I want to make it very clear. And I, I think if people don't want to understand that, they don't want to understand that. And that's just all right to me. But I do, I do want to push people's mental boundaries to be like, oh, a woman can exist in all these different spaces. And I feel like I'm trying to do that. And another reason why we're talking about this is because I think people should really try to listen because it's not just me. I think that women in general, in all different areas of their lives get put into these categories. And I want to have that bigger conversation of let's not do that as a society. Let's let women exist in the spaces that they want to exist and not pigeon hole them into one specific thing because women are multifaceted. Like we do it all in whatever capacity that is, whether that's in in the working field or at home or wherever that may be. And I think let's have it bigger conversation and not zero in on what I do because it's not accurate. Speaker 1 It's such a good point and I appreciate you clarifying that because I agree. Like, it's not your job to clarify it. But it is frustrating when I think you see a woman in media who is such a good example of the double standard of like, why are we painting you in this one capacity? We're pretending like she's just slaving over her husband in the kitchen. And it's like, that's just not what it is. Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you, but let's have a bigger conversation here and see what really is the issue. Because I'm not the issue. Something that is happening for you is the issue, so let's chat about it. Speaker 1 It's very threatening. It's very threatening. Let's talk about kind of this concept of, you know, people labeling you and projecting things onto you. When it comes to motherhood. What do you think would surprise people about how you and Lucky complement each other as parents? Speaker 2 Maybe how involved he is. I think there's this, I don't know what it is, but there's this like standard where people are like he's holding the baby, he's watching the baby. What do you mean he's watching his baby? He's a dad, of course. So I think there's this like weird societal thing that's happening where it's like who? Who's watching the baby? What do you mean he has two? Like where he has a dad? Speaker 1 And I think what's hard is people again really struggle. Like you post so much online. And so if you're the primary one that's like posting, they somehow believe that he's not a part of certain things and he's like new guys. There's like a complete other life outside of social media that people choose to not I'm. Speaker 2 Very selective with what I post and how I post and how much I share of my life because I used to be a lot more open. But then the more traction my social media got, the more people came to my page, the more people like kind of piece things together that were so inaccurate to what was going on to where I kind of felt like I had to take a step back and really evaluate what I show and how much I show. Speaker 1 Can you give an example that kind of forced you to be a little less open? Speaker 2 There was this incident of me posting my kids and then there was this TikTok video where someone I don't even know how they got it, but they got like a story that I posted on Instagram about my daughter like a year and a half prior to me even having TikTok. So I'm like, where did this video come from? It was an Instagram story, not even in in feed post and it had millions of views and it was just her sitting on the couch and she's so cute. But the comments it had like 200,000 likes. It had like 8000 comments or like so many. And so many of the comments were like, I can't wait for her to be older or her eyes are so pretty or look at those lips. And then I'd go on the profiles and it was like old men to where I realized I'm actually doing my kids a disservice by exposing them and making them vulnerable on the Internet to where I'm like, OK, kids are off limits. So when I do work shoots with the kids, like there was this Skims photo shoot that we did, a holiday shoot we did last year where I told the team, I'm like, I would love to do a family photo shoot, but these are my boundaries. And a lot of people I work with are very understanding. Skims was so understanding about it. I'm so accommodating. But there's just there's dangers on the Internet that I need to protect my kids from. So that was one of those experiences. Or just like little like books they'd see in the back or like the whole religious thing. I'm like, no, but OK, I get why you're saying that. So let me take a step back because you're actually misunderstanding things I put out. So I kind of put myself in this little bubble to where I I just want to keep things that are very personal to me, personal to me. Speaker 1 Yeah, like I think there's been obviously such an uptick in the conversation around posting children online. And it's a really controversial one just because of the amount of evidence we're seeing of how destructive and exploitive it can be and seeing how many disgusting people are online and are consuming the content in a way that you wish. This is not the world that we lived in. But unfortunately that is the reality. And so to some degree it is the the parents job to protect the children. How have you and lucky like? What is the boundary of like? When to share, when to not share? Speaker 2 Yeah, I think we kind of take it situation by situation because if Vogue came knocking on my door and they were like, we want you and the kids on the cover, I'd be like, well, if my kid grows up and I say no to that, would they feel like they missed out on like, I don't know. They're like, we definitely talk about it situation by situation, but when it comes to social media and social media content, no kids faces. I don't want them being recognized. I don't want anything. So I just, they're a part of my life. So obviously they can be a part of my content, but then it's just them running around or whatever to not see their face. So I feel like I'm still navigating kind of how to what to show and what not to show because I, I care about my community and I love that we're all in this together and that people like show up and support and like I've really build a close relationship with my community to where I feel like I really want you guys to see as much of my life as you can. But then also I know that I have to set boundaries because if I don't then. Speaker 1 What are you going to do? Yeah, it's also so hard. It's so interesting you're saying this because I, you know, I was talking to someone recently about it and the conversation around sharing your children online. I'm like, it's so crazy to me, though, that the people who don't you see a lot of women get like, oh, she must be a bad mother. Like, we never see her with her kid. And I'm like, I'm already ready for that for me, 'cause I'm like, Oh my God, people are going to be like, she's never with her kid. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, I don't post my kid. There's a very different again, if it's like they don't see it, then they don't believe it. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's that's kind of been an ongoing thing. It's like, oh, where are your kids? What are you doing? Like Lucky never. He's never with his kids. I'm like, if I were to turn this camera around, you would see four screaming kids and Lucky trying to wrangle them all. But I'm, I'm not sparing you. And all you see is me and my pretty dressmaking Skittles, OK? Speaker 1 Because we're just keeping it for the brand. We're uploading the video that you want to see, right? Enjoy. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 Talking about motherhood and family, what is something from your own childhood that you are intentionally wanting to replicate? Speaker 2 I think the curiosity, I feel like growing up, I was always very encouraged to be curious and ask about things and understand how things work and be knowledgeable about things. My dad was very German growing up. He would play, he would play this game with us where he'd get a globe. It would light up like a world globe and he would spin the globe and then he'd like stop it. And then he'd like point to this, he's like, what is this country? What's the capital? How many people live there? And we do that was like, aren't like he would not chase us around the yard. He would do that with us or he would get me this like really thick. I remember it was a thick purple velvet just book about Greek mythology and he would, like, quiz me on it or like a book about Marie Antoinette. And I was like, what, 6 or 7? So I think just that knowledge and that curiosity, it's made me very aware of things. And like, I've always had this like, deep feeling of just, but why? Why are we doing this? Why are you saying these things to me? Like, what's the bigger message? And I want my kids to, like, really have that understanding of the world and, like, really dig deep when it comes to things. I don't want them to be followers. I want them to be leaders, strong leaders. Speaker 1 Have you noticed at all? Because I know they're young, but like, have you noticed any of them having that same curiosity that you have? Speaker 2 Oh Rumble, my 5 year old, she's exactly like me. I'm like, tone it down a little. Speaker 1 Bit where you're like, hold on. Speaker 2 Yeah, it's really funny seeing their personality slowly emerge. Rumble is like me. Slim is like Lucky. Very quiet and reserved, but so smart and so brilliant. Whimsy. She's like our little fiery one, but I. Speaker 1 She's the third. Speaker 2 She's the third. Speaker 1 I'm the third sounds like. Speaker 2 Me so so you get it. You're. Speaker 1 Just constantly pushing buttons. Speaker 2 Pushing buttons but she also like no one's going to tell her crap and she's also very aware of situations to where like if she doesn't like someone there's a reason. So I'm never like, be nice. No, you don't question her. No, I don't question her. No, because she's very observant. And then Fonny is just nine months. She's along for the run. We're. Speaker 1 Going to figure that out. Yeah, we're going to figure out Fonny's. Speaker 2 Going out I'll. Speaker 1 See you. I'll see you later and you'll give me the update. Yes. Is there anything that you're doing differently that you're like, oh, I want to change that from my childhood? Speaker 2 Patients, I think my my parents weren't very patient, so I think just being patient and trying to really get on their level. Speaker 1 Which from what I understand is like a huge thing for parenthood that you're like. Speaker 2 I'm struggling. Speaker 1 Patience. Speaker 2 Patience. Speaker 1 Before you're like, don't freak out, just give yourself a patient deep breath. That word. I need to paint that everywhere in my home. Speaker 2 No, truly, I think that's something that has been really hard for me because I'm very like, let's just do it. Let's just like, why aren't you putting on your shoes? Like let's, let's go. And I just really had to like, take a deep breath. And I'm like, there. They're tiny humans. That's what I remind myself of. They're like tiny humans that haven't done a lot before. And you just need to realize that, like putting yourself in the state of mind they're in. Like, of course, they're asking me why they have to go to bed 'cause they don't know what time it is or what's going on. Sure. Patience. What? Speaker 1 Did love look like in your house to you of like your parents? What is that face? Speaker 2 You know, my parents have a really complicated relationship. They've always been so loving and they they were the best. Well, they are were they are the best parents ever. They've taught me so much and have really grown a lot also. And now as an adult I see them totally different. I think being married now and having kids where I might have been hurt as a teenager being like, why are you guys fighting or why are you doing this or now I have a lot of compassion for each of them individually and together to where I understand the choices that they've made. I understand why they did certain things. So I think my relationship with them has really changed and evolved over all these years. But yeah, they didn't have the best marriage and they didn't have the best dynamic at home. So a lot of a lot of things that I'm unlearning now stemmed from that. But I love them so much and I have a great relationship with both of them. Speaker 1 Did they stay together or did they they're? Speaker 2 Still together, but it was very tumultuous, so you know. Speaker 1 No, but I think that's interesting of like when when a lot of people grew up in a tumultuous situation with watching their parents, but then there was a divorce or separation that also can teach you to like really stick things through. But like, at what point is should you not right? And so like, I'm sure there's, yeah, I'm sure there's things that you're trying to figure out of like how do you handle conflict when you're lucky are fighting? If you watch something very particular and specific repeated in your household, there's like some unlearning that has to go on. Speaker 2 Yeah, and the older I get, the more I realize that my parents are great parents, but when it comes to their marriage, they were not the best example for marriage whatsoever. So I think then getting married, married at a really young age. We got married when I was 18 and had our first baby when I was 19. So I never had a good example of how to navigate conflict, how to navigate a disagreement, how to navigate speaking my mind without feeling like I cannot, like all these things that were internal to me, not so much about my partner, right? It was was never that much about my partner. It was more about me and the things that I've learned and we we've gone to couples therapy. I think that's a great tool. I think doing therapy yourself and like really just looking, I feel like being married is like a mirror. Like you're all of a sudden in this space where you're confronted by all the things that you may or may not be doing wrong or things that you've learned that might not be the best for you. And then all of a sudden you have to work on that, because elsewise your relationship will not be the way that you'd want it to be. Speaker 1 And like thinking about that Nara, I completely agree. And then adding on the level of having children in the midst of also trying to be, you're young, you're taking care of yourself. You're, you know, fostering your relationship with your husband. And then I know you've got 4 kids in five years. Speaker 2 Yeah, my oldest is five. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 In five years last year, you did post about struggling with postpartum anxiety. And can you just describe what those first few weeks after having your daughter and giving birth like? What were those like? Speaker 2 Each pregnancy was so different. My first pregnancy and my first experience postpartum was like what the heck is happening? Because I feel like we always talk about conceiving and then being pregnant and then birth, but what happens after? And I think being young and maybe me, I was very impulsive. I'm like, whatever, yeah, I'll have a baby. So I never really sat. I never did a birthing class. I've never read like a a book to the end. Sure. Did I start, you know, that was like books that you always get the like baby, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a few pages in and then I'm like, whatever. So I, I clearly didn't really know a lot. But then when I had my first baby, even giving birth, I'm like, oh, the baby's out great. And then they're like, OK, you need to keep pushing. Get the placenta. I'm like, what placenta? What are you talking about? I had no idea. And then postpartum you all of a sudden, well, I gave birth in like my midwife's office, which was had a bedroom. So it was like a birthing center, but not really. I don't know. It was a room with whatever. So I got sent home with this baby right after giving birth. And I'm like, I don't know what to do. I have no idea, but I'm just going to follow my gut. I've always been the type of person to like, I know in my gut what's right and I know I'll know what to do. And then I had my mom in law there as well to help because it was during COVID so my parents couldn't come. But that first experience was really rough. But I think I also just like kept it pushing. But then my 4th experience and then each experience was rough in whatever way. But my 4th experience was she was a surprise baby. So we were done after our third and then I found out I was pregnant with her and I was freaking out. I remember like everyone I called my agent my didn't tell my parents for the longest time I didn't really want to tell my agent. But then I'm like, I don't fit anything I need to tell her. I was at like, I was at the Schiaparelli show wearing this dress. And I just remember I flew into Paris that same morning and I was just throwing up on the way there. I'm like, I actually need to tell people. So I was terrified because I just, I don't know what that feeling was, but I just knew I was at a point in my career and in my home life where I felt very settled and I knew what the pregnancy would do to my body and my mental and like all these things and my stamina. Speaker 1 Taking it into existence would make it more overwhelming. Speaker 2 Yes, so I didn't want to tell anyone. Took the longest time to tell people I truly like. Really just didn't think about it at all until it hit me right before she was born. I'm like, oh, I'm actually having a baby. And then like all the emotions kind of came in and then I went into labor on my birthday actually right after midnight she was born. It was a great labor. Whatever. I gave birth. I was sitting there, Lucky helped and we were sitting there. And then the next morning I woke up and that was one of this. It was one of the scariest experiences postpartum for me because it genuinely felt like everything was a dream. I told my I told Lucky I was like, it feels like I'm going to wake up tomorrow and I would have never been pregnant. I don't have a baby. I don't like this doesn't feel real. What is happening? I was terrified. I told him like, I don't feel like I'm here. Am I here? Like, did I like, I looked at him one night and I'm like, did I die? And he got so concerned. He called his sister and his mom and he's like, is this normal? Like, what's going on? And then I didn't tell my midwife because there was like this whole I just have sometimes I have a hard time conveying like hard emotions to people because I want to be seen as this very like collected strong woman to where I don't want people to think I'm unwell, no pun intended. And it was really hard. And I, I had really bad postpartum anxiety for like 2 weeks. I remember I didn't tell anyone I gave birth online. It took me like a hot minute to like let people know because it felt like it didn't happen. Every morning I'd wake up looking at this baby being like, who are you? And I'd never had that experience before. And that was really, really hard. And then the postpartum anxiety kicked in to where I was like, well, I don't know what to do. Like I don't know. And then through it all I still had to work like 3 weeks after she was born. I was shooting cookbook images and where was it? The Catskills or somewhere like somewhere like an hour and a half. I don't know where it was, but we were shooting at this house and she was 3 weeks old and I just had to keep it pushing. So it was almost this, like I was so disconnected from myself. Speaker 1 And your body. Speaker 2 And my body. Speaker 1 Reality. Speaker 2 Like everything, it felt like I was living this like warped reality and it took me a hot minute to find myself back in my body and like. Speaker 1 Understandably. Speaker 2 Yeah. And then the minute I did, I was like, oh, we've got a rhythm here, you know, like everything's OK. We find out Whimsy has cancer. It was just a mess. And then on top of all of that, I was still posting my videos. I was still posting stories and being like today, my kids were while internally I was like crumbling, truly crumbling. And I was like zipping up my dresses, being like, OK, let's just go do it. Let's just take the meeting. Oh, next flight out to here. OK, I'm bringing the Oh, pumping. OK, wait. Like it felt like this, like you're. Speaker 1 Just going in autopilot to just get through, get through, get through, get through and you're like not processing. Speaker 2 Deadlines for the book like there was no messing around. There was no messing around. Speaker 1 I think that something that you're describing is probably one of the more realistic experiences that women have after birth. And I think that even saying that out loud, there's a lot of women that are like, is that is that true? And it's like, yes, like almost. I would say, let's say I have 10 of my girlfriends that have children. Seven of them have had extreme postpartum anxiety, really intrusive thoughts. Like, I remember when I got pregnant and my friend came to me and basically was like, I just want to say something, not to freak you out, but I want to say it before you give birth because I need you to remember this moment. She basically was like, there is a chance, and I hope it doesn't happen to you, but there is a chance you are going to have some really crazy dark thoughts. Yeah, like, crazier than you could probably ever imagine. Really intrusive thoughts and it's OK and it's actually way more normal, but no one talks about it because as a woman, like you just said, you didn't tell your midwife because you want to present a strong. And then there's the added level of like you just gave birth. You should be so happy. You should present as this OK figure because also like the mother not being OK like Oh my God, what's wrong with you? Because now we don't have as much empathy anymore because you don't have the baby in the belly. Like you got to get your shit together. And so there's all these pressures to like bounce back and get back. And it's like, I can't imagine the internal struggle emotionally that you were going through and that you had to fight that battle somewhat on your own. Of course you can share it with your husband like it's on you in in a capacity. Of course you should share it, but like it's overwhelming. Speaker 2 It's so overwhelming and I think it doesn't get talked about enough and there's not a safe enough space for women to really voice how they're feeling. And I think it is really important though postpartum to be open. I think that's what I learned through my last experience. I'm like, I really wish I would have told my midwife or gotten a therapist or someone to just help navigate because on a physical level, like your hormones plummet. That's just what it is. Like you go through like the largest plummet in your hormones that you. Speaker 1 Ever can possibly have in your life. Speaker 2 Right. So I think as women, I, I really encourage everyone that's that's having a hard postpartum experience to really seek help because I promise you're not going to get seen as weak or not capable or whatever. More so, it will give you the tools to really have that community. And even with intrusive thoughts, like no one talks about it because it's it's scary because you don't want anyone to think that you would ever do anything to your baby or that you would harm yourself or that whatever it is. And no one really creates that safe space of it being OK, but it is OK. And you can also have people in your space that will understand and help you navigate it. Speaker 1 So many women who've gone through it would be like, I'm just telling you they're like, yes, but to a normal person, maybe. Speaker 2 Who're like what's wrong with you? You need help, but not in a way that's bad, more so in a way of like. Let's support and give you a a good foundation to feel your best, not because you're bad, but because you need a stable. Speaker 1 Foundation And I also think like when you there is something in life where it's like if this is happening so regularly that is then the norm like that is normal to it's not normal to live like that forever but there is clearly scientifically proven that women after all of these hormones drop like you're going to go through this potentially and. Speaker 2 Needs to be talked about. Speaker 1 It needs to be talked about. I hope this makes women feel less alone. And also we're hopefully just through this conversation, chipping away a little bit at the stigma of postpartum, the anxiety, the intrusive thoughts, like you are not alone, you are not crazy. And that is where I think women coming together and talking about it makes other women finally feel like, Oh my God, there's like a woman that's going to watch this right now and be like, girls. I never needed that more than to hear that I'm not insane for having these thoughts. Speaker 2 No, you've just gone through the most life altering experience ever that you will ever go through. Give yourself grace and also recognize that you literally you've grown a human being. Every single bit of this human being you've grown from nails to hair follicles to organs to brain to skull, everything, and then you've given birth to this human being and then what? You're just supposed to resume business as usual? No, that's like physically not how it works and mentally not how it works. And I think we talk about the physical maybe even more than the mental. Like I feel like postpartum in general has not talked about enough. But if we do talk about it, it's like, oh, you're going to have this or you're going to not be able to do this. Or like, let's figure out the nursing or whatever it may be. But no one necessarily talks about all the things that could happen mentally after it's. Speaker 1 So true. I was thinking about that because it is such an adjustment from your, your mind and your body and, and they're both going through such different things. A large conversation around postpartum bodies. I mean, that's a constant conversation. But I feel like you kind of got put into the mix after you gave birth to Bonnie. Some people online really celebrated how quickly you appeared to recover. And they were talking about, you know, I think it was like a mirror selfie or whatever it was or a picture of you. And then while others talked about, you know, the pressure that this puts on women to bounce back after having a baby, How did did you feel about being a part of that conversation and how have you navigated that? Speaker 2 I think that's postpartum looks so different for everybody. Bodies are different for everybody. Some some people bounce back really quick, some people don't. Some people get stretch marks, some people don't. I think that we as women should uplift every single woman postpartum. And I think yes. Did I post a picture that maybe evoked emotion in other women or other people in general? Yes. But what people don't realize is that to me, that picture wasn't me at my best and my normal. I was crying that same morning I was wearing a diaper in that picture. I was wearing linen pants because I didn't fit a single one of my denim pants that I had. I was way above my usual weight. Like I didn't feel like myself. And I posted that picture being like, I don't feel like myself, but my body is magical because look what it just did. And I'm really proud of that. And that was my postpartum experience. But I think in general, we should celebrate everyone for where they're at postpartum. Speaker 1 I completely agree. I think that there's such a pressure when it comes to the even just the concept of bounce back culture. Again, focusing more on like how we do a mentally girlies, like the body is the most incredible thing that like women. And the fact that we are able to do or able to do in this moment is insane. And so just to be alive after that experience is like, yes, I'm happy. And so I think understandably people are going to have insecurities that come with, again, extreme changes, but to put another woman down for how something she can't control. And also you shouldn't feel like you have to hide. Speaker 2 Also, my experience wasn't. I think it's one thing what the public sees, but then it's also so different to how I feel. I think that being a mother looks so different for every single person, and I think we should really celebrate everyone for where they're at and the safety that it takes to share whatever they want to share. Like, I think that we should really just make it a safe space for women in general, regardless of what your postpartum looks like, whether you bounce back or you don't. Because to me, someone bouncing back might look a certain way, right? I'm like that because I compare myself to sometimes I'm like, oh, that mom really just did it. She's thriving. She just did this. But being a mom myself and having gone through birth, I'm like what she shows me is probably her best. Or she wants to show parts of herself that she feels really good about or that she wants to share for whatever purpose that may be. I'm not going to compare myself to anyone. Speaker 1 I was going to say, I think that actually leads us perfectly into this next conversation because it really is such an indicator of like guys, we also just anything you see on social media, you don't have the full story even freaking close. Like at this point, I am convinced we are maximum in moments getting 10% of a lot of people's lives. And that is some for some people generous. Like you said, as you are navigating postpartum, you find out that your daughter, Whimsy has cancer. Can you explain? Just like how you decided for you and your family that it was the right time to even share this news publicly. Speaker 2 It took a lot. I told myself I'm not going to get emotional, sorry, sorry. Speaker 1 I got tissues. You're good. Speaker 2 I think I mean, it all boiled down to when we found out about everything and then all the behind the scenes and everything that was going on. Lucky. And I did have those conversations and my fear, I always had this like lingering fear. Well, what if someone takes a video of us in the hospital and they put it out or because when we were in the hospital, people would come up to us and say, Hey, can I get a picture with you? Can like, can you say hi to my friend? And they probably didn't know that we were going through the hardest time of our lives. So obviously I smiled and said, of course you can and took the picture. But I was always nervous that people would kind of piece it together or someone would talk or someone would whatever. And to me, her safety and privacy was the most important thing. So I would always go back and forth with Lucky and saying, should we just share it? Should we just talk about it? What if someone else does and he's like, but that doesn't matter. Like what do you feel like in your heart? And I always came back to the fact like, I don't want to share it. I don't want to like talk about it. I don't want her out there. I don't want any of that. So then as time went on and as we went through all the treatments and had really hard days and slightly easier days, I found a lot of community in the hospital talking to parents or the nurses or going on Reddit and like reading people's stories like all of that. And the more I kind of went through that, I realized that I find a lot of comfort and knowing that I'm not alone. So then when she right after her birthday, she she was in remission. We finished her last treatment. We rang the bell. It was very emotional. And I just realized, well, maybe if I use my platform to make even just one person feel less alone, I can do that. And that's kind of why we shared it. Speaker 1 I can't even imagine, Nora, you being in that hospital and the anxiety of trying to protect your baby and also being this public person. And I'm sure there was just like so many emotions around like, Oh my God, I wanted like turn this part of my life off right now 'cause like this is all that matters. And I can, I can't imagine the anxiety on top of already like the trauma that you and your family are having to endure. Speaker 2 It was really hard. Speaker 1 When you found out this diagnosis, like what do you remember about that day? Speaker 2 I just remember we were actually coming back from a big family photo shoot, the holiday one, and my mother-in-law, she talked to Lucky and she was like, I, I saw this thing, don't be alarmed, but like maybe you should look at it and talk to Nara about it. So then Lucky came into the room. I was nursing Fonny and he said don't freak out honey. Not that I usually freak out, but like he was like just just look at it and see how you feel. Should I take her to the doctor? I was like, like, what happened? Did she get her or like what's going on? And then he was like, no, I don't think so. My mom just saw this. So then he was like, I was just like, let's just be safe and take her to the ER. Then we took her to the ER. The R was like, we don't really know what to make of this. Just tell us if it gets worse. And I was like, OK, well, maybe it's just like a kid thing. I don't know. So then later that week, I took Fonny to the pediatrician for the first time. So I rang him and I was like, this is what's going on with Whimsy. Do you think I can bring her to just have a look? So we walk in there and he does her first. So he looks at her. And then I just remember him going quiet. He went quiet and like very calm and collected. And in that moment, like my heart just dropped. And there was this like weird gut feeling of being like, oh, she has cancer. I know she has because my mom, before that, she'd gone through a year of chemo treatments for breast cancer. And it was gruesome. And it was so hard to watch her go through that. And there was always this lingering fear of this like sickness that would come. So then I was like, oh, she has cancer. But I didn't want to say it to Lucky like I, I did hint at it. And he was like, no, honey, you can't like you can't think like that. So then he didn't even, I don't even think he looked at Fonny really. He was like, you guys need to take her to like the closest hospital. So the closest hospital was the Yale New Haven Children's Hospital. So I drove back home with Fonny because our other kids were at home and he took whimsy and Long story short, there were a bunch of like biopsies, ultrasounds, scans, whatever. And then a week after that initial visit, we got a phone call. And I just remember standing in the living room and the phone rang and it was this like weird gut feeling. I'm like, oh, it's the hospital. They're going to tell us she has cancer. I looked at Lucky and I'm like, this is it. Let's just brace ourselves and like, it's cancer. And then you could just tell by the voice and they were like, we're so sorry. She has cancer you guys need to start like treatment immediately and then they took her in then she started treatment, they tested her further, did a few more scans and they were like it's really it's spread in her body. So like you guys need to this is the treatment plan. This is what she has to do and it was really hard. So we Lucky kind of did the majority of the because you would go home and then she would go to the hospital for five days and stay there from Monday to Friday every like 16 ish days depending on what her blood count was. And Lucky did those overnight stays because I had Fonny at home that I was nursing and I couldn't be away from her. So I would go during the day and then obviously try to also work and like do that. So it was like playing Tetris almost. And then we had our other kids. So it was really, really hard and it was a really tough experience. And every day you'd wake up and not quite know what's going to, what the day is going to bring, what the doctors are going to say what like is the treatment working? Is it not like all these different things to where it. It was really hard, yeah. Speaker 1 Nora, I like, I am so sorry even just hearing you like no parent should ever have to experience this. No child should ever have to experience this. I can't imagine the emotional toll also of trying to be present for multiple children while also wanting to be present for the one child that is sick and going through it. It also sounds like so such a blessing to have such an incredible partner who was able to take this on while you were taking this on over here. I'm curious like in that darkest moment where you so you get that phone call as a couple, like what, how did you? Speaker 2 I think it was a lot of being on autopilot because I think when I'm faced with a crisis, whatever that crisis may be, I'm like, OK, there's no time for emotions, there's no time for anything. It's like zoning in and doing it. So I think at first, like we didn't process it, but I think it was we were both on autopilot, making sure that she was all right, making sure our other kids were all right. And it didn't really hit us yet, right? So we were like, OK, let's, let's do it. It's like fine, I guess. And we were very like, we communicated a lot. I was checking in with him, like, how are you doing? What are we doing? Like he was checking in with me. Because you always hear when couples go through a really hard time, it either makes or breaks you. And a lot of the times I feel like I've heard about couples kind of drifting away, but I feel like it's even, it's brought lucky in me even closer together because we were we really had to rally for whimsy. So yeah, that was that was just an insane experience. And then the more time went on, her hair started falling out and you like could physically see it. Like she would get really nauseous and like all the things that come with someone going through chemo treatment. And I think that's when it kind of hit both of us. And then we started like crumbling a little bit to where when I had a hard day with it, he picked me up. When he had a hard day, I picked him up and we were like, let's just keep going. It felt like we were, you know, that game where you're like tied to someone else and you have to make it to the finish line together. That's what it felt like. And every time I was like, I don't think I can go any further. He was like, yes, you can't, like you can, and then vice versa. So I think it really it required a lot, a lot out of both of us, but we made it. Speaker 1 How did you explain? Just like the changes that were happening to your other children. Speaker 2 I think they were at an age where they could kind of get it, but kind of not. But there was this book, I don't remember the name of the book, but it was this book about cancer that a mom wrote after her kid went through. I think it was brain cancer to like make sense of this situation. So we read this book. I think it was something and the hair fairy or something to where it talked about like this cancer. It was like described as like a gummy ball in your body or something like that. And that you would lose your hair and then the hair fairy would come and like you should just put your hair somewhere and it's going to take the hair. And like it was a very beautiful kids story and all my 5 year old took away from that was like I want the hair fairy to come. So I was like, I don't think it works like that, but like, sure. And then as time went on, like they would have these random questions to where I also realized like maybe it is like on their minds to where I would like Slim would ask me, is it like, can I get cancer? I'm like, no, it's not contagious. It's like trying to explain it. But they would ask these questions in the most random situations to where I knew that I just had to be like extra present with them and extra loving and kind of just explain things a little bit better for them. But yeah. Speaker 1 What what kept you hopeful in some of your darkest moments? Speaker 2 Knowing that I wasn't alone like the community and knowing that there is parents out there that are and have gone through similar experiences that have made it up the other end and were fine. I guess in whatever way you want to interpret that. But also just the fact that I can't give up hope. If I give up hope, Whimsy will and I need to show up for my daughter and I need to make sure she's all right and she like she will be all right. I'm going to make sure of that. And if it's not this treatment, it will be next treatment like there was. There's never, there was never the thought of like giving up emotionally or physically to me. Speaker 1 Do you have any? If someone, a parent is listening right now who happens to be going through something similar like, do you have any advice that you would want to share? Speaker 2 I just want people to talk about their emotions with anyone that they feel comfortable with. I think it can feel like a very, very isolating experience that you don't really think anyone else would understand or go through or whatever. But the more community you seek, the more you'll find people showing up for you in ways that you never thought they will like even by sharing that I've had so many people reach out and offer support even though now we're in remission. So it, I, I waited until we were because I never like, I couldn't stomach going through everything at the same time, but having people reach out or sharing their own stories or even sharing how other people showed up for them. I think community is so important and I want you to go seek that because there's a huge community out there that's so beautiful. Speaker 1 How do you think this experience has changed your families? Just like day-to-day life now. Speaker 2 I think it's made me at least really be present and grateful for every moment that we have. It's made me really just see even the small mundane things as something that I enjoy doing. And I want to find the beauty and, and make extra special. Like, even if it's setting a table a little bit more elaborate than I wanted to or making them their favorite meal because, like, why can't we have Mac and cheese tonight? I I'll make Mac and cheese, you know? So I think it really made me cherish those small moments that before I was very nonchalant about. Yeah. You know. Speaker 1 In what ways do you think this experience allowed you to see Lucky in a different light? Speaker 2 I've never thought about that question in that way, but I think seeing how tender he is and so loving and supportive and like there was no an optimistic, like there was not a single moment where he didn't show up for whimsy for me, for the kids, for everybody as like a strong partner and father and sure did. Did he have really hard moments that we worked through together? Absolutely. But it just showed me just how beautiful this family is that we've built together and how each and every person has a part that's so integral for all of it to work properly. Speaker 1 Yeah, I, I remember you had said that you guys had gone to couples therapy before. Like how did the foundation that you guys have built really prove to be a solid foundation during this time? Speaker 2 It I like this is something that no one thinks is going to happen right so when we went to couples therapy I was like, let's just do it to really build a strong foundation. I wanted to make sure that we have the tools because he grew up in a different way than I did. And we both bring baggage that maybe we're aware of or maybe we're unaware of. And therapy gets a bad rap. Couples therapy gets a really bad rap. It's like, oh, you're going to get divorced. That's why you're. Speaker 1 Going there, what's wrong with you? Speaker 2 Guys, what's wrong? Sometimes, like nothing's wrong and you just want to have the tools to have the best life. Like I want to have the best life in every aspect of my life and not to me comes with work, sometimes harder, sometimes easier, but it's work nevertheless. So we kind of learned the tools of, I think one thing that was really big for us is communication. We kind of talked at each other a lot, but never with each other. So I think that came real in really handy with this experience to where even though I might have felt whatever I felt, I created the space for him to feel the way he felt and for him to communicate that with me and for us to work through that together and really be heard by each other. Speaker 1 Oh my God, I can't even imagine how integral that was to the success essentially of you being able to just like every day get through this. Because like you said, I I agree. I think you hear so many stories, understandably, of people losing their way with their partner because grief and trauma like you're, you're trying to regulate and trying to be there for your child who you're putting 1st. And so like it kind of becomes an afterthought sometimes about your partner. It kind of has to be. And so I think to know that you guys were able to really try to tap into that is so beautiful. And I'm just also probably so beautiful for your other children to try to my. Speaker 2 Best friend and I think that's also what really helped. Like he's not just my romantic partner, like he truly is my best friend and I don't know what I would do without him. So it almost like our friendship and our understanding of each other really helped in every aspect. And our kids too, like they I think having that relationship to sure, do we fight sometimes or bicker or argue? Absolutely. Our relationship is not perfect. Like I don't think anyone's relationship with anyone is perfect, but I think our kids have seen us like really rally and they've seen us maybe have an argument. I think it's healthy sometimes for them to see that, but then also see the resolution of it and how we find our way back to common ground. Like I think all of that was really important for them to see. And I think it's just been a really humbling experience and hard. Speaker 1 You have been through. How old are you? Speaker 2 24, yeah. Speaker 1 You have been through so much life. Speaker 2 I have. Speaker 1 And you are so impressive. Like obviously you're now coming out with this cookbook, Homemade. It comes out October 13th. Yep. And it's so interesting because we've watched you on TikTok. We've watched you making these concoctions. But to now put it into a book. And I love it because it's not just recipes. You're actually kind of telling the story of like how you got to where you are today. Why did you feel like now was the right moment to do something like this? Speaker 2 When I started with the whole TikTok thing and my recipes and videos gained traction, a lot of the comments were we need a recipe book. Where are the recipes? So I started with my sub stack and then just realized that I, I love a good book. I really do. So I I'd also never owned a cookbook, which is weird. I'd never owned a cookbook. And then writing this, my publisher was like, so have you ever read a cookbook? I'm like, no, she's like, you need to go go get some. But through this whole process, I just realized I want all of my recipes in a book that can live on someone's counter and be kind of timeless. I want it to be on your counter for a very long time. Speaker 1 Hold up the book, I want to see it. Speaker 2 Give it a little the whole thing. Speaker 1 Promo that thing, girl. No, it's. Speaker 2 So keel even the back like it took it's it's a labor of love. Speaker 1 Something I also need you to talk about is there is someone that is very reoccurring in this book that you often bring up and it your grandmother like who are we? Speaker 2 Talking about. Speaker 1 Your grandmother, what is one of your earliest memories with her in the kitchen 'cause I know that she inspired a lot of your love for cooking. Speaker 2 Her and I were really, really close. She was the one that taught me how to play the piano, how to read. Like she was very much involved and I just remember there were a few things that she would make a lot. 1 of them was oatmeal, like this cinnamon rich oatmeal. I've never been able to recreate it, but it was phenomenal. And that was one of my first memories with her in the kitchen to where she would like wrap my hands around the spoon, tell me how to stir it, plate it up, sprinkle it with more cinnamon. And she was just this warm. Very. And then we'd sit on this like banquette in her kitchen and behind us it was just like a wall of black and white cat pictures. There's. Speaker 1 Such a grandma. Speaker 2 Full of cat pictures. I'm like, this is crazy. But yeah, that was one of my first memories. And she's always been like, like an inspiration, even. Like, I got psychic readings once by like, this religious medium. It was my grandma that would pop up in all these things. And she was like, your grandma's wanting you to know this. Your grandma's really proud. Your grand grandma's like looking over you. When I see her standing at the piano. What does this mean? And I'm like, crazy. So you did see her? Speaker 1 So you did see her. That's I was thinking about too, because even you saying like, Oh my God, I don't I still haven't been able to recreate her oatmeal like my you putting finally your recipes in writing. I feel like you're right. So many people for so long have been like Nara. Where's the recipe? Speaker 2 And I'm like, I've been, I can't tell you, but like, I'm working on it, I promise. But I couldn't tell anyone for two years. Speaker 1 OK, what is the first recipe you knew had to be in the book? Speaker 2 Oh, that's really hard because we were going through lists of recipes for so long, but I knew that like my kookier recipes had to be in it. Like I know you want to know how to make an Oreo. Let me give it to you, right, Cheez its you don't have to buy that anymore. Let's just make it so those recipes are in there. But then I also cook a lot of normal meals. Like I need to feed my family. I need to feed myself. So here are some recipes that I actually like genuinely cook on and offline for very little less. They're like cheese it. I know sometimes you just have like an hour to get dinner on the table. Let me let me tell you how to do that. Speaker 1 OK. OK. So you were giving us range? Speaker 2 Range. Speaker 1 I appreciate that, yeah. What is 1 recipe that took the longest to get right? Speaker 2 There's this one recipe in there that's like a sourdough bread, but not with a starter to where I was like, I'm not going to make you feed your starter for like, because OK, the recipe started off as like, I'm going to show you how to make your starter, feed it every day. Speaker 1 Yeah, like when I do like Nora, I don't know what to do with the starter. Speaker 2 Yeah, so I'm like, that's like 2 weeks of work for a loaf of bread. I'm so sorry. Speaker 1 Because this is going to help me have no starter. Speaker 2 No starter you still kind of get that same thing. It will only take you like 5 to 6 hours. OK that sounds crazy still. But like for bread, that's not that long because it's also hands off. Speaker 1 Work I've heard literally people in LA like I have got to hook up for someone who has starter and no I. Speaker 2 Literally, literally no, Alex, you don't understand my friend. She lives in Utah and she had a starter and I was at her house with my kids and I was like moaning to her. I'm like, I don't my I had to throw my starter away and she was like, you can have some of mine like Willa is really doing it and I'm like great. So she sent me home with a starter. I flew around airport like through security I could take it, which I don't know whether I could actually or whether the guy just knew me and. Speaker 1 He's like, he's like, I see that starter. Speaker 2 I see that starter just go, just go, just go. I don't know. I would travel with it and feed it like every Airbnb I was in feed. Speaker 1 A starter. Speaker 2 Water and flour. Speaker 1 I'm so stressed, Nora. Speaker 2 No, I need to show you it's really. Speaker 1 Wanted to have fresh bread in. Speaker 2 My no, I love fresh. Speaker 1 Bread like. Speaker 2 I need to send you the bread recipe in there. I also have a sandwich bread recipe. Like I think the baking ones took long. Actually. Cinnamon Toast Crunch cereal took so long. Speaker 1 OK, so how like idiot proof is this very because I'm the idiot? Speaker 2 But here's the thing, I think a lot of people have this misconception that I'm this like professional. I'm a home cook, honey. I started cooking at the same time as you saw me starting to cook. Like when I posted on TikTok, that's when I started. Speaker 1 Cook. It makes me feel good. Speaker 2 Yeah, so like. Speaker 1 So I could maybe figure something out. Speaker 2 Some of these might be a little technical, but with the steps you can figure it out. And then some of them are so easy to where you just throw some lentils and sweet potato in a pot and you'll be fine. So I think that's the thing. Yeah, I wanted it to feel accessible to people. I didn't want it to feel like, oh, all you're getting is from scratch recipes. No, I wanted it to feel like an essential book that you can get started with and feel comfortable with and like, like my cooking takes trial and error. Do you know how many times I've made things like, I tried making Twizzlers the other day, Horrible. Didn't work out, Toss that. So it really is trial and error. Speaker 1 We need your expertise. Yeah. What is it? I'm going to throw you a scenario and you're going to tell me what I should make from scratch. You ready? Speaker 2 Yeah, tell me that. Speaker 1 You want to impress at a dinner party? What are you bringing? Speaker 2 I'm hosting so I'm not sorry not bringing. Speaker 1 Okay maybe like I will never host a dinner party. I'm the girl that orders the takeout and puts it on the plate and pretends I made. Speaker 2 It. I've never done that, but that sounds fun. Speaker 1 Genius. Okay, what are you making for your dinner party? Speaker 2 So here's the thing, I love a good menu and I love a theme. We have to have a theme, We have to have a menu. So let's figure out the theme and then figure out the menu after. But what I do love, I'm a little biased. Like a roast chicken. Here's the thing, a roast chicken feels impressive if you do it right, but it's very hands off. It's like one of the easiest. Like that's the dinner I make when I'm like, I have no idea what to make. It's a roast chicken because you like do it, pop it in the oven and then you do a bunch of sides. I like things that you could prep the night before and then just play it the next. Speaker 1 Day done? OK, your kids come home from school absolutely starving. What are we making? Speaker 2 Bread and jam. Speaker 1 Bread and jam. That's a good answer. You're trying to seduce your future husband. Speaker 2 Yeah, steak and fries with like a sexy, like peppercorn sauce. Oh. Speaker 1 Yeah, OK, You need to pick me up comfort meal after a really tough day. Speaker 2 Beef pie. Speaker 1 OK, your in laws are unexpectedly coming over in 30 minutes. What are you making? Speaker 2 Something American, let me tell you that maybe no tacos. Tacos. My dad in law loves his little tacos. Speaker 1 OK, so I make some tacos but it's so different from how you like. Are you making your own Taco seasoning? Speaker 2 Well, what do you mean? Like mixing spices together. Speaker 1 Oh, is that what it? Speaker 2 Is you just take like cumin and whatever and like put it all together. What do you, what do you do? Oh. Speaker 1 I get like the, you know, the Taco packs from the grocery. Speaker 2 Store. Oh, that's an option. Speaker 1 Yeah, but. Speaker 2 I mean, Taco seasoning is chill. You just have to have you have your spices and you throw it together. Speaker 1 I never thought about it. Like yeah, when I said idiot in the kitchen. Speaker 2 Oh, so no, that's fine. Speaker 1 I could just kind of. Speaker 2 You can just. Speaker 1 Make it yourself. Speaker 2 Well, of course, like make your seasoning like dry the bell pepper and like grind it and make. Speaker 1 It break up put on the beef to make it have that little like zest. Speaker 2 Oh, you just like, okay, you probably have a rack of spices in your kitchen, right? And you just throw them together. Whatever makes sense for like the cuisine you're going for. And then I do love a good like I like a good. Sweet and hot thing. So I make my own salsas. I also have this really good recipe in my book. Actually I'm not trying to plug it. Speaker 1 But. Speaker 2 It's like a roasted pork situation. Pork tacos with that two different salsas and you can put the pork on in the morning and put it in your slow cooker and then not think about it until dinner. Speaker 1 That's what I'm going to try and then. Speaker 2 You could either make your own tortillas if you want to, or you can just store store bought. Store bought so we're. Speaker 1 Not getting noisy, girl far, but I'm making my own salsa. Yeah, then I'm probably hitting up the tortillas at the grocery store. Speaker 2 You know what? Or you do the tortillas and buy the salsa. Speaker 1 Which one do you think? Which one's more impressive for me? How are you making your own? We have so I have so many questions. Speaker 2 Cornflour. Is it cornflour? Masa harina? Yeah, a little bit of water. Speaker 1 Wait, what do you order for take out? Is this controversial? Speaker 2 No, I I love a good takeout, I really do. I think sometimes there's something so beautiful about someone else cooking for me. Speaker 1 How many nights a week are you like cooking in your household? Speaker 2 I try to cook every night. Sometimes, like the other day my chickens got eaten by a fox and I was making chicken and I was like, there's no way. So I got take out. Oh yeah, this. Speaker 1 Feels a little. Speaker 2 It felt a little barbaric. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel. Speaker 1 Morbid. Oh wow, so you're like, we're. Speaker 2 Gonna it depends, but I usually order take out that I don't really wanna make myself. So it's Indian food, Thai food, Vietnamese food. I would never order something I could make like ordering a burger for take out on Postmates criminal activity. So. Speaker 1 Crazy. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 That who would ever do? Speaker 2 That sometimes it's it's a necessity, right? But for me personally, I I. Speaker 1 I you would hate to see me coming if I pulled up my Postmates order. You're gonna be like Alec. Speaker 2 Yeah, I would actually be like, let's just tweak this, how about we do Indian instead so that that, that I would much rather. Speaker 1 Order OK, last one, you're over halfway through your pregnancy. It's 10:00 PM. Asking for a friend. Suddenly you need something. You want to make something yummy. What are we making? Speaker 2 Like how much time? Speaker 1 You got an hour. Speaker 2 Oh, that changes the game. Speaker 1 They're, oh, 30 minutes. Speaker 2 I would make OK, I don't like this, but I know Americans love their chocolate chip cookies. I would make chocolate chip cookies and then I would make well, I would probably have ice cream that I made in the freezer. But you, you post made some vanilla ice cream and then you put your Ice Cream Sandwich together, hot chocolate chip cookie, but like not hot 'cause then it will crumble. But like warm vanilla ice cream in the middle, another chocolate chip cookie and you press it together. Get yourself an Ice Cream Sandwich and if you're feeling fancy, you melt some chocolate and like dip it and let it harden. You do that. Speaker 1 I love you. I am so gonna do that. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Oh, I'm craving that right now. Speaker 2 Oh, it's good stuff. And like, you don't have to like, spoon it or do the whole thing. It's like an Ice Cream Sandwich. And you can also prep those in advance and put them in your freezer so you can just pull them out and you get like the perfect vanilla ice. Because sometimes when you buy the pre made stuff you're like the vanilla ice cream stocks or. Speaker 1 The cookie stocks, but you. Speaker 2 Can get it the way you want to get. Speaker 1 It you are blowing my mind right now Yeah, it's it's like talking to an expert and I'm like this child that's like I'm trying to absorb some stuff is going what's your. Speaker 2 Pregnancy craving. Because that's what I want to know. Speaker 1 OK, so in the beginning obviously I was like nauseous. I wasn't craving anything. Then I started craving in and out. Speaker 2 Classic. Speaker 1 A classic. And so when you're like, oh, ordering burgers, I'm like, no, no, I'm going to in out. Well. Speaker 2 'Cause that's fair, that's fair, we'll take that off the list, 'cause that was my craving. Speaker 1 OK, fair, but I would want ate weirdly in a lettuce wrap yes and then I also wanted to get a Flying Dutchman. You're me there's. Speaker 2 1 Nora, that was me. Speaker 1 So good. And then Chili's or No, Yes, of course I didn't. Speaker 2 Have the same order then, so that was me. Speaker 1 And then I started craving Donuts. Oh, which was taking me down like a weird path. And I was like, every morning my husband would come to my bedside and I would say, like, bring me a donut and a little coffee. And I was like so happy. So that was good. And so I've gone through like some weird phases, like it's it's kind of hit or miss sometimes. But for right now, I'm like, I'm really, really liking my ice cream right now. So This is why it's really hitting. No, no, no, I'm not making it. Look at you perfect. You're going to make homemade ice cream. I'm like Nora. Speaker 2 Do you know what's really good though? If you love an ice cream is the Jenny's Birthday Cake Ice Cream. Speaker 1 I will find out. Oh, OK, so that's what I'm on. And but right now I don't know if you did this when you were pregnant, but like, I need a lot of different tastes kind of happening at once. So my bowl Nara is like mint chip, then vanilla, then chocolate, then strawberry, then I have some cookies and cream, then I have some salted caramel. Absolutely. And I need all the taste. Speaker 2 Yep, Yep, Yep. Speaker 1 And then I just lay there and I'm like and. Speaker 2 You're like OK but I could only eat like 3 bites because I'd feel so full so quick. Speaker 1 Immediately I have so many questions after this because I'm having issues with pregnancy pillows and like I'm trying to wait. Speaker 2 Now, yeah, I'm gonna. Speaker 1 We'll talk offline, but you. I wrote something down. Yeah. We're rounding out our conversation now. I think we're having girl talk that we're in front of cameras. OK. You talked a lot about wanting to build something that lasts. What does that mean to you? Speaker 2 One thing that I've always strive for is longevity. I want the business and whatever I'm creating to grow alongside me because it's unrealistic for me to think that I'm just going to be doing this for the rest of my life. Like I'm going to grow and evolve. I'm only 24. I don't know what the next 10 years have in store for me, but all I know is I want to be working and building my business and growing to where I I enjoy so many different things. Like obviously I love my social presence. I love cooking, so writing the cookbook felt natural. I ended up being in a movie where I had that whole experience to where now I want to do acting so I'm taking acting classes. I also want to build my own brand, you know, Well, we'll get into that when the time comes, but I think people are really going to love it. It's going to be really fun. So we're working on that. And then just kind of figuring out TV, that space, just I feel like the world is my oyster. And like the most grateful and humble way I could possibly say that because I'm so grateful to have the community that has put me in the spot to be able to really execute my vision. And I'm so grateful for it and really excited for the future. Speaker 1 I mean, I'm so happy that I got to talk to you because all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, just talking about the misconceptions and the labels. And I think it's just like another testament to what you said earlier of just like, why can't we all get more comfortable with celebrating women who are multifaceted and have drive in multiple different areas and how about this are thriving in multiple different areas of their life. And instead of that being a threat and something that we want to ignore or downplay, let's celebrate it. Celebrate it. Speaker 2 We should all just help each other and like really just uplift each other. That's all I want to do. Speaker 1 No, I'm so happy I got to meet you. I really appreciate you. Also, I know we went through so many different topics and I know that so many of them were extremely personal. Speaker 2 Thanks for making it a safe space. Speaker 1 Of course, no. Thank you for coming on, caller Daddy.