Napcast Ep34 - Supporting the Black Birthing Experience

- Hey everyone, welcome to NAPCAS. We're glad to be back with you. I'm one of your co-host Nick Taronis or Taronis pronouns are he/him. And I'm joined by. - My brown pronouns are he/him. It is good to be back. I feel like we haven't done this in a while. So I'm out of shape, you know, we gotta stretch a little bit. You know, we, more importantly, right? Enough of us, we are joined by a queen. - Yeah, I can't, I don't even know. This woman in the ad, she was like, it's her outfit. I'm gonna introduce yourself. We appreciate you being on your team. - Hey everybody, my name is Stephanie Courtney and I am with the Learning Project Network. My pronouns are she and her. And I'm excited to be here to join you and talk about families. Like what do we need to do in our communities to strengthen families and to think about how children are coming into the world differently? - And what's more importantly, and not just families, we're talking about black families, right? - Yeah. - So, you know, you started off just like that, right, family. And family means so much more than just blood. You know, family, community, family, can mean like third cousin twice removed, you know, family for the black community and you know, neck, the indigenous and Mexican community, right? It is pan-African, you know. It is beyond the spatial boundaries in which we set for the United States. And I just kind of want to start there. Like let's call it what it is because, you know, you just mentioned off Rina, you got 11 month-year-old, congratulations. - Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Oh man. - Thank you up that night. - Yes. Oh my gosh. I was telling every, I was saying before the show started that she likes waking up at 2 a.m. and just like talking on stuff. I don't know what she'd be talking about, but she is very into the conversation. So what has I do podcasting? So when she was in my belly, I did a lot of conversations and trainings. And so she definitely picked that up for sure. - So there's no denying that she's definitely your offspring. - Oh yeah. She's coming with the fire. She's being raised by an activist for show. - I love it. So let's get into our first question because America is, the United States is failing black mothers. - Yeah. - And I know a lot of people like to throw that out there, but can you just give us the data behind it and then your own personal experience of why that is? - Yes, absolutely. So let's just talk about a few things. One, black women are three to four times more likely to die due to pregnancy-related issues, okay? When we're looking at everyone across the United States, developing country, black women are dying three to four times more, okay? Due to pregnancy-related issues. That could be because of sepsis, infection, cardiovascular issues. Those are the issues that we can see are impacting black women along with some other ones. When we look at that statistics, the CDC says that 60% of these issues are actually preventable. So I want that to sit with you, okay? 60% is preventable. If we ask ourselves, what is really happening in our communities, not just within the medical community, but what does the community say about the people, specifically black women getting birth and the children that are coming into the communities that they live in? We look at birth sometimes as a service kind of work where we are putting in a lot of services in our community, but we are not looking at how culture plays a vital role to the survival and also the growth in the development and the healing of black women, black mothers, and black spaces. Oprah came out or is coming out with that. Have you heard about it? Yes. And I only have to read the headlines, but essentially what I took from it was about how capitalism also plays a role. Absolutely. And just how those are inextricably tied. Do you have any, and you just thought on that before? I don't even know when it comes out. Oh my gosh, yes. So this video that a documentary that he's talking about is like a medical community, and a black community, why is there so much trust? What is happening? It's made for us to come out, I believe. So that's tomorrow. And on top of that, when you're talking about capitalism and you're talking about black bodies, like let's actually rewind in history. When we look at history of slavery, there was a point in time where a slave owner could actually put insurance on a slave, because they wanted to make sure that their money, they got back their money if that person died, or if they ran away, which was also seen as a medical condition. If you continue to run away from your slave master, there was a medical condition that they would deem the slave with, and they needed to give them the prescription to break that mentality. So I just want to throw that out there. Some of you guys will know that that that that term, it's do something. Actually, I'm not going to try it because, yeah, mom's still got my brain. So sometimes the bolt be kind of in. But the point is look at a black bodies have always been seen as a form of funding and a form of money and exchange. And we have to recognize that we need to have more of these conversations. And we need to be looking at these conversations in very different ways. I just want to put a little plug in because I just recently did something which was April 11th at the 17th because black maternal health week. A lot of people have not heard of this or their community is not even recognized it. But black maternal health week is a week where we take time to elevate black voices, black stories, and solutions, problems, different gains, we're highlighting a lot of this. Black mama's a matter alliance is the founder of this movement. And this year, my city was, this is the first time they've actually ever recognized it. So we had, this has been out for five years. What I decided to do was to create a art exhibit. So black mother submitted as well as doulas, submitted images of black women getting birth in their birth journey. And I set it up in a winery where people came and talked about these different images with their information, what happened in these images, as well as we took back some historical context to help people understand why is there so much mistrust between the medical community and black community. And so we have to start having better conversations. And we had great visuals because we have to remember that black bodies have not always seen as human. And it's still very deep in our communities and in our medical community as well. Something that's coming to mind-- this is very-- it's putting a lot of-- you're giving me a lot of words to feelings and things that like-- it's sort of tragically affirming in a sense of everything you just said. And something that came to my mind-- and I hope this makes sense-- when I'm thinking about the piece that capitalism plays in this whole systemic and institutionalized racism that's in our society. And something that Mike and I have talked about in the past is how racism-- I mean, it still shows up in very overt ways now. But I do feel like because it is systematic and institutionalized, it has camouflaged itself, right? And it like sort of is like a very effective disease where it adapts. And it just becomes a little bit more sneaky. And so when going back to that capitalist piece, I've been thinking about the intentionally disenfranchised black family, breaking up the black family, separating the male figure, if you will, away from the family, specifically to keep them in prison, to keep making-- turning out the money that prisons have, right? The prohibition of prisons. And so when you were just saying all that, all these things started piecing together, all these fragmented feelings and thoughts about the role that capitalism has played in profiting off of black bodies, like you're saying, and really keeping black families disenfranchised, separated, fragmented. So, you know, and when I think about like the black-feet complex, what is it, the T.P. of that Maslow appropriated, if the community isn't as one, then the individuals can't operate in a healthy sense. And so if you break apart the black family as a community, then individually, it's hard for each individual sort of self-actualized, right? And start moving on up, if you will. So, yeah, thank you for dropping that wisdom, though. Yeah, you know what? Like, you just, like, so I'm such an animated person, so if you ever come to my podcast, you're gonna hear me, like, wake all kind of like, "Oh, that's just me, okay?" And I'm learning that, you know, you've got to be yourself. So, you know, if you're one of those people, I don't like that stuff, I'm sorry. You don't have to be like, rewind every time I do that. But, okay. But this is what I'm saying here. So, when you just said that, it like hit like a soft spot for me. So, part of my podcast, one of my podcast series is called "Bro, Get a Do" and it's about support systems. And it's about figuring out ways that we can create better support systems for black fans. Research shows that when a black woman has a doula, has a person of color who looks like them, is connected with them and helping them through their birth journey. Their chances of issues, complications, decreases significantly, okay? And when we talk about those kind of conversations and we're like, "Well, why would it matter?" It's because there are certain things that we have to really look at and combat against. One, black women were able to have babies in hospitals for the longest time, okay? Y'all, black women, we're having babies in the basement, okay? Before that, we were having our babies at home with men wives and doulas. We have to think about how we need to go back to a lot of our cultural practices and our connections when it comes to birth. And really, birth was seen as a communal thing. It was a place where people were welcoming children into the world and then also welcoming the mother into the world. Because the mother was becoming someone new. There's an amazing book called "The Fourth Tri-Mester" by Kimberly Johnson. She says something that's so poetic. She says, "The mother must be mother when she has her child." And what that means is there's a sense of support that not only that the child needs because black children are dying at expedient rates before their first birthday right now. And we are a developing country. I keep going back to this because we look at a lot of other countries and we're like, "Oh, that's so barbaric." What they're doing, why are they doing this? And it's not right. But we have the highest death rate. I want that to sit. So we need to challenge ourselves, put down our pride, our privilege, and say this is not right. We need to make some changes. But just going back to this idea of understanding that there are certain practices and certain things that we need to get back to so that we can help people feel seen and heard and really supported and know that they get to take their birth into their own hands. But not only do they get to take their own birth into their own hands, they get to reclaim the generational trauma that has been associated with black birth. When we look at black women who are getting birth, this comes from slavery. You're seen as money. You're seen as profit. Who has the, who's bearing the most children? When we're looking at breastfeeding, black women are at least likely to breastfeed. When we look at the historical points of this, black women were not allowed to breastfeed for long periods of time or even at all. Because when you breastfeed, you don't ovulate. So what happens? You can't produce more babies. And what does that mean? You messing up the money. So we've got to really understand that the past has everything to do with the future. My word for the year is so Icofa, which means go back and fetch what is in the past so that you can go forward. So if you don't understand your past, and then people are telling you their experiences, and then grandma just told you, don't do this because this could happen to you. Or great grandma said, don't do this because that can happen to you. We may not know all the historical reasons or the stories, but the stories are very similar and they're being passed down from generation to generation without understanding the past so that we can go forward. - I gotta get animated with that too. That's, and if, I mean, I don't know if I mentioned this, well, we were recording, but I was feeling a little sluggish and sleep deprived, but now I'm like pumped up. - Let's go knit. (laughing) - Yeah. You're talking about the black, you're talking about the commodification of black bodies. I'm black, and I was looking for thanks. I was going to, and I was in church for a second. - Yeah. - Yeah, it just, it's something that, it stirs my soul because when I did this art exhibit and I quickly see different pictures, I don't have to show y'all this image. So there's this one image by Jessine Nicole. She came through with this image. So it's three women that are different shades of brown, Nicole's in the middle with this powerful afro. And there's two women beside her. So I'm trying to give y'all this vision. And she's looking straight at you in this image. And they are, like, it's kind of like, it looks like you're like in, like, I don't know, a field. And it's a black and white image. So we decided to dedicate this image to the mother's of gynecology, which many people do not know this story. Betsy, Lucy, and Anaka. These were three black women on three separate slave or three separate plantations. They all had children. They all suffered a horrible complication that basically made them lose their mouths on themselves when they were in the field and they were in different periods. So the slave owners, they found that they were worthless. They were not able to be around other people. They were shamed, they were shunned. So what the slave owner did was they leased these women out to a doctor named Dr. Sims, okay? Dr. Sims is considered the father of gynecology. He took these three black women. He did, well, one of the women, they said he did over 40 surgeries on. He had them for five years, okay? They had anesthesia. They did not give them any anesthesia. No anesthesia because black women were not seen as people and black people did not have any pain. They did, they believed that they didn't suffer through pain. And these black women endure humiliation. They did not have any consent over their body, any consent over their birth. He was supposed to fix them so that they could go back to their plantation and be worthy again. And these black women were put in rooms where white doctors looked at their bare naked bodies being surgically, having these procedures done on them over and over and over. So many of these doctors could not even stomach with this doctor was doing. So a lot of them left. He couldn't even keep an assistant. So the three women had to learn how to be his assistant. So these women, now the victims have to become the victims. They're holding each other down. They're feeding, they're nursing themselves back to health. And when they were in recovery, they had to go and be his slave and clean his house and be their maid. So right, this is the kicker right here for me. This is what the gut punch was. Doctors have figured out how to quote unquote heal these women. He sent them back to their slave owners. He packed all his stuff up and went up to the north, opened a practice to show all of the new procedures that he actually learned. He then comes out with an image of him doing this procedure with a white woman who has a white nurse holding her hand and then they had a sheet up to cover her body, to make sure her dignity and respect was preserved. So when we are talking about black women, black bodies, black families, black mothers, black children, we have to ask ourselves, what has the true story been historically? And what is happening now that is mimicking what was happening back then? Because no one's going to do what Dr. Sims did because we know that's bad, right? But what is happening so suddenly that we're not seeing that we can't recognize because we don't know that this is wrong, he and he made for bad. - Yeah, and that's reminds me of what I was saying earlier, just how pervasive that racism and these atrocities can be. And that's terrifying, but we need to really think about that and scrutinize our own things that we inadvertently support or the things that we don't read up on enough and see like what is happening currently now in these ways that you're saying. I have a buddy who he works in Yakima and he works with Latino families, mostly like migrant families, and maternity care for that community looks differently because of the population. And you know, many of the Latinos, they live in intergenerational households and they have extensive networks of rich and family resources. And they too often are at odds with the trust of the medical care system. And so they sort of rely on each other as a community. And so, you know, but this isn't always true for a lot of other communities and like what we're talking about. And so sometimes people who do give birth in maternity deserts, which you know, that's a term that I hadn't thought about until like Mike like brought it to my attention. Yeah. So, you know, whether there isn't any of these culturally responsive care and support systems. And so I'm wondering, what do you think child, how the role of child care centers in these areas, how can they play a support in the Black birthing experience? Oh my gosh, I love this question so much. So, let's talk about this, okay. So, before I started, I had talked about a podcast series that I'm working on called Girl Gonna Do Love. For those that don't know what a dola is, it's an individual who comes into your life and supports whatever journey you're on right now. So, that could be birth, it could be miscarriage, it could be abortion, it could be adoption, it could be being a single father, it could be grief. There's all different levels of a dola. Dola is bomb. And really what you were talking about within those families, that I think you said it was like more of like the immigrant families where they were they're able to support one another because of the multigenerational, multigenerational household. We don't see that in the Black families because that was basically torn away from us again. We have to go back forward, right? We, there's such a complex piece right there in itself, but when we look at the way the family dynamics work, we have to start thinking about what do we actually really need to do to build these areas. So, one, early childhood education can get involved by getting their own personal dola. A lot of, I'm telling you, early childhood education, we typically will see a mother go through postpartum issues from the jump. But we do not have any training on it. We don't, we do not focus on it, especially when we're in the infant room. Our infant teachers, those are super heroes because they will be, the all the babies can be crying and they can be in that room. And they're like, hey, good morning, how's everybody doing? Automated cry, everybody in the bad mood. But, you know, they're going to figure out how to find time to talk with that family when they're coming in. The second thing I want to say is that a dola is not just for a woman, okay? Dola's set president in everyone's life, okay? When we are looking even at the, and I'm going to say, father and mother, just because I'm speaking from my own experience, we need to make sure that we're recognizing that birthing people. There's so many different people that birth in different ways. Birthing people need to be recognizing, need to make sure that their stories are heard. And I just want to let people know right now that I'm going to be speaking from my own experience. So when I say mother and father, I want to make sure that people will understand that I'm not purposely leaving anybody out, but I'm going to speak for my point of point of view right now. So, first of all, my dola came in, and she not only supported me as a black woman, who was dealing with miscarriages, who dealt with seven years of infertility, who dealt with being dismissed, who dealt with tons of gas lighting. So, I started second guessing my own body and my own experiences because I'm like, maybe I'm not doing this, maybe I'm not experiencing this. So, she had to come in and help lead and guide me and educate me as I was going through this process. But she also did something phenomenal for my husband, which was she embraced him and helped him get through the same process so that he could recognize when he was going through something. Research shows the first year of a child's life, breakups, separations, divorces are so freaking high. It's something like 35 to 40%. It's, that's too many to me. When we're not having the right discussions about like, yeah, y'all arguing because y'all just need to sleep. Y'all need to go to bed. Or, you know what, he is feeling tons of pressure, but because he is feeling like he has to be everything for everybody. He needs some help. Men can go through postpartum depression as well, especially if they're seeing something very traumatic. I remember when I was in the hospital and for those that don't know these things, I'm going to just say them because you need to be prepared. Like, I had to get a cervical check. And I usually, I was refusing the entire time, but they couldn't tell like where my baby was. So, they were like, we've got to just check you like something literally you've been here for like 20 hours. Like, can we just check you for two seconds? And I'm like, no, no, no. But finally, I had said yes. And my husband was in the room and he's holding my hand. And the cervical check to be very painful. Like, especially depending on what part of your labor you're in. And he has tears in his eyes and he leaves. And the doctor leaves. And he says, I am so traumatized right now. I've never seen this happen before. And I can't believe I just had to sit in her and watch him hurt you like that. And I didn't realize until that moment, this could be very traumatizing for men as well. And that's why my doula was like so nurturing with him, preparing him through reading books, having us look at videos. Because we're not even talking about the issues that happened during the pandemic for a lot of families, which you didn't get Lamas classes, you didn't get birth at education classes. You couldn't even have your family in there, which is a cultural thing. Some of us couldn't even have our doula in there. So the doula had to prepare the bed or whoever was coming in with you to make sure that nothing happened to you while you were out here in these streets, as I say. And so a doula is not just for a woman. We need to break that. And we need to understand that men need just as much preparation and education so that they could be the best fathers that they could be. Because a lot of fathers are coming from single mothers. They're coming from broken homes. They're not really talking about what it means to be a family and a developer's family in pieces. So early childhood educators have to get involved with getting more resources and not just having a pamphlet, but actually holding sessions, actually implementing maybe a doula comes in once a month and works with your teachers or a doula comes in once a month and works with your families. You know, is there a mother that's nursing that stressed the hell out? Because she's got a, you know, breastfeed at work. And then she's like, her milk's going everywhere. When she's at a family, like, they're solving things that go through a person's mind. And it could be a woman. Even just having a C section, being a mother and having a C section, number one thing you need to do is rest. If you are not resting and you take your baby back to work or back to daycare within four weeks and you even have, you haven't had the proper time to rest and heal. Because you have another child, you're trying to run around with that child, trying to do this and trying to do that. What's going to happen? You're not going to properly heal. You're going to start having issues. You're going to start having problems. Especially if you're not getting that additional support or that other people that are around you don't know how to support you. A doula is a powerful tool to the community. But we have to put down some of our power in the medical community, in our communities for these cultural, these cultural rooted practices to come back into our communities that have been saving women's lives for generations. Decolonizing birth practices. So it comes to mind. A lot of what you're bringing up is obviously rooted into this general idea of mental health. And it feels like mental health is just really starting to gain some traction. And at least people are like, oh yeah, let's bring it up. And especially when we consider the suicide rates of young men. Between what is it like the ages of like 18 to 36? It's such a huge age range of men who are-- I feel like forced to not talk about their feelings because of this patriarchal society with toxic masculinity and whatnot. And you had mentioned postpartum depression. And I love that idea of early childhood education. Because in ECE, early childhood educations, we talk about the holistic child. And part of the holistic child is the family, the mother. And so it would be who of us to have just even a series of classes in our learning that reflects that. And so I love that idea. And for all of us to get an understanding of what postpartum depression is. And so that's like my question to you is, if you could break down a little bit more of what postpartum depression is. Oh my gosh. OK. So two folds to this. So when we're looking for a postpartum depression, usually on an extreme level, like having anxiety, depression. Sometimes you can have thoughts of killing yourself or hurting your baby or maybe something happening to your baby. Sometimes these things are not outward or inward. And postpartum depression can also look like where you're being really protective over your baby or you are-- I call it spinning, where you're going really fast. And you're trying to get everything here, here, here, here, like you're trying to get everything done. But for black women, we have to talk about how strong black woman syndrome actually plays a part in this. So strong black woman syndrome is a term that is used to describe black women who do not want to show signs of weakness. This is like asking for help crying, reaching out to get services that could help them using maybe even medication to help balance our hormones or their emotions. So that's one layer. The second layer is black women are least likely to receive referrals from their doctor. You usually do not see your doctor until you're six-- after six weeks of having your baby. So within that six week time frame, there's a whole bunch of signs that's happening. And if you don't have doula-- not just any doula, there's different doulas, but a full spectrum doula or postpartum doula. These are the individuals that come through for you after you have your baby. That six week time frame is crucial. We need to have somebody there like a lot of times people say to what does a doula do? What does a doula's life look like? They will cook for you. They will clean for you. They will help do different cultural practices. There is an amazing practice that I do a lot of highlighting on. And she does a belly bind, which is like you take a cloth and you are binding the belly. It reminds me of almost like a rope. And it's basically helping you move everything back into place and helping you basically get ready to heal. And so your doula is there to help support you mentally, emotionally. A lot of times we don't talk about postpartum plans. So this is where your mental health is taking care of. This is where what's going to happen? Who's going to take care of the baby? How are you going to eat? How are you going to nourish yourself back to health? When are you healing? Do you have enough money to make sure that you can heal? What is your medical insurance look like? There's so many different pieces that come into place with this. And then the third layer that I just want to jump into is my own personal story. Because again, we're looking for postpartum depression to be allowed. And a lot of times it is not allowed with black women. It is very hidden. I was dealing with postpartum issues. And I didn't realize that I was. I basically-- I read my own business. And I have at least plans to have somebody take over my business while I had my baby. And it didn't come out that way, right? All my plans, the Aboriginal ABCD plan ahead, it all fell through. So I ended up having to work after three weeks. And luckily for me, I work from home. My stuff is online. It doesn't require a lot of like, chill work at this time. So that's first thing. So second thing, I also was dealing with I had a C-section. And so my doula had to come and constantly talk to me about resting and stopping doing what I was doing. I struggled with this so much. She called me and was like, hey, I want to cook you some food and bring it up. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't need to do that. I have a whole husband. My mom's here, my daddy's here, everybody's here, my husband's mom's here, like, I don't need you to do that. And she was like, no, I need you to do that. I would not let her support me. This is when I realized like, I have an issue of not wanting to be supported and loved on. And I, it really wasn't until again, I keep going back to this book, listen, if y'all don't have it, I need y'all to put it in your bookshelf. Fourth trimester Kimberly Johnson, she was coming with a fire. And she, so my doula gives me this book and I'm reading this book and she talks about how when you are, after you have your baby, this is a time for people to love on you to create memories, to grow with you. And I rejected everything because I wanted to be strong. I needed to show you that I'm perfect. I got this. I'm happy. And it was like two o'clock in the morning and my husband was asleep. I had just finished nursing the baby. I was like, I don't want to just make no mo. I'm so sick of her. And she gets a warm old time, I swear to her. 'Cause I love my sleep, I love it. But I knew at the beginning of me having her, I was gonna have to nurse her quite a bit. But my husband was like, said, why don't you come and off theater throughout the night? And I was like, no, no, I don't want to do that. 'Cause I'm gonna be a bad mom. I'm gonna say, actually, I'm a still nobody. It was like, okay, it's okay. So he started taking the night shift immediately. I started receiving that support. But there was one night when I was crying. And I was a mess. I didn't even know what was going on. I was just crying. Like, I felt my life was over. I felt like so much stuff had changed. I didn't even know what to do. So I just got up, went in the living room and cried. 'Cause I needed an ugly crack. And I looked up post-partum international support. They had different support groups for pregnant people to, or also they help people with loss. They help people who are bipolar that are having babies, who have PCOS, people who have OCD, like all these different spectrums of life that deal with birth. I didn't know that was out there. But I wouldn't have known that was out there. If I wouldn't have had my doula and had resources prior. So when we're talking about post-partum issues, sometimes it looks very different. Sometimes it's really loud and sometimes it's really quiet. And to me, when you're really quiet and you're not sharing those feelings and those thoughts, that's really scary. Because that's how one day you wake up and you're looking at a person like, when the heck did this happen? Or why do you feel like this? And it's because they didn't feel like they had the right to be vulnerable enough to share with their family. So you're giving us a lot of food to think about. And I'm just feeling so blessed. I'm all mute and just like, oh my God. Crazy, like, I mean, so it's just grow and learn. And it's draw dropping. And you're mentioning a lot about, or you're mentioning here and there about like, just about reproductive justice. Yeah. And I think when we say that term, a lot of people just think about abortion. There's really one part of it. So can you clarify what does reproductive justice means and then some of the services that touch us along? Okay. So I have my own definition, but a sister's song has a really, really, really good, reproductive justice definition. And I just want to read it to you guys real quick. And then I want to talk to you about what my definition is when it comes to reproductive justice. So their definition of reproductive justice is that human rights to maintain personal bodily autonomy, have children, not have children. And parent, the children we have in safe and in sustainable communities. My idea and understanding of reproductive justice is absolutely reclaiming your human right, understanding your human right, and moving in your human right. When let's just take, let's just take race off the board right now. Even though a lot of people are like, we're talking about black families. Yes, I'm going to touch on black families because there's layers to the same. This is not all the same. When we have looked at historically with women, period, we have never owned our own bodies. When you look at history, women actually were listed with materials that their husbands own. So you would be listed probably after the sheet. So when we talk about reproductive justice, it means to reclaim every aspect of your life. It's every aspect of your history. When we look at reproductive justice, we have to understand that it is a person's individual right to make the decisions that they need to make for themselves in how they birth, how they choose to parent, how they choose to or to not have children. This is a hard conversation, especially within early childhood education because for everyone that is in these spaces, we are all pro-children. Absolutely 100%. I'm down for the kids always forever. But we have to remember that these individuals that are having children need a whole separate type of support and they need us to be willing to hear their stories in a genuine way and an open way. Because sometimes we don't understand what a person's going through. I don't understand sometimes what people are going through. But when it comes to reproductive justice, we have to think about this thing in layers and understand that it's a human right from the jump. I just kind of walk, sort of walking us back a little bit, a couple of questions that popped into my mind as you were talking earlier about doulas and postpartum. What's one do I ask first? I mean, they're relatively small questions. No, you said, I'm not going to talk long, make a promise. No, no, it's all good. I can listen to you talk like all day. These are just questions that popped into my mind at a curiosity. Are doulas covered by insurance these days? Yes, so after our exhibit, we just highlighted House 1881. This is the new bill that will cover doulas by Medicaid, you guys. Oh, that's great. So glad you brought this up. So this is actually covered. But there's twofold to this. Some doulas are not going to take Medicaid because it's not going to be enough money. Dolas I've always been seeing as a rich white woman kind of experience, it is not. And so doulas need to get paid more. We know that, but we have to start somewhere. But doulas can be very expensive, but if they were actually just covered by your insurance because it's a part of your care plan, why wouldn't we do that? It's a no-brainer, right? But if you don't have Medicaid, and you're, I always say you're not poor enough, but you're not rich enough, that you're still putting your situation, you're still in the same situation. Research shows that you could be a black educated woman who's upper middle class, and you still have the same statistics as a four-white woman who is having getting birth to a child, their outcomes are going to be higher than your still. So let's actually do something about it, and then give people access to something that is absolutely showing that is helping with the death rate among black women. - And then my second, small question is, I guess on a biological or physiological level, what causes post-partum depression? Is it like the body sort of rebalancing itself? - Okay, Nick. I'm gonna try to give you my own personal life. I am a doctor, y'all. I'm just person out here in the street start to make some change. So, for what I have read, what I know, what I've experienced, it's a hormone change, you know? It's a hormone change. And when we talk about a pool, I love that you guys brought up like the natal deserts and stuff like that. So, I always use the term dual deserts. But we also have to look at all the deserts, all the beasts, the dual deserts, the nutritional deserts, the care deserts, like there's a whole list of, right? So, when we just talk about dual deserts, you're not getting access to care from the very beginning or at the end. You don't have access to nutritious foods. There are communities that they're only gas stations around or all their fresh foods are not available. Or access to fresh foods is very difficult. And then when we look at the care system, there's only like two ways of getting care. And you're not seeing anybody for six weeks. Like, that's crazy. One part I didn't even share with you guys was, I actually had an infection. I had a headache for over like a week. And my doula had called me every day asking how my head was. And I was like, oh, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. Finally, she asked me, how's your head doing? And I was like, I actually have had a headache. And she was like, you need to stop knowing what you're doing and you need to go to the hospital right now. And I was like, I don't really know what you're talking about. Like, I don't want to go because COVID and everybody said all the hospital is taking up. I'm not trying to go up there. But I'm heading to the, you need to go right now. Go to the hospital and the nurse of Subneetia 6th of the UF infection. She was like, you better be glad that you came in 'cause this could have got worse. Fast forward, I do a podcast with a lady who had the same symptoms as me, did not have a doula, had a headache for over 14 days. This was her fourth child, had her husband, had her mother there. She thought she was having a headache because of breastfeeding 'cause breastfeeding knocks her hormones off of the bed. Turns out she was not okay. It's up with postpartum pre-crancy. Move her ability to walk. She, I call, I've seen this, I've seen her post about her story and she says to me, oh well, I would love to come and do the podcast and share with my story. She goes, what segment am I gonna be on? I said girl get a doula and she pauses and she says to me, do you think if I let it out a doula, this wouldn't happen to me? And I looked at her and I said, absolutely. If people don't even know what their bodies are supposed to feel like and what they're supposed to go through or what they can go through, you're gonna miss a whole bunch of stuff. It's the weirdest thing. We all come through birth but nobody can tell you about it. That's the weirdest thing ever. How do you not know about birth? How do you not understand what's happening to your body? But it's because we shamed it and for some community, it's a luxury and a privilege to talk about their bodies. And for others, it's a revolutionary act. If for black women, that's exactly what it is. It's a revolutionary act because we have to go from the past to the future and we have to educate each other and be there for one another and support each other like never before. And I think that leads to my next question because oftentimes we have children in our classrooms or in our learning environment and they're expecting a younger sibling, right? And but when we start talking about sexuality, when we talk about gender identity, so when we talk about the birth and the experience, a lot of these families are like, oh, well, that's not what I'm saying to my child to learn about. So when we talk about reproductive justice, and the appropriate ways with young children. Okay, so just recently, I had a conversation with Nekahal, she's another doula, very powerful woman. And we talked about how many children actually have not been in the hospital rooms or in any spaces where people are having children because of COVID. So like this whole generation of children did need to get to see people giving birth and like being in a room with their sibling or their mother or whoever their individual birth and person is. I have a two-port fall on this. One, you need to talk to your kid about reproductive justice. You need to share as much as possible because I guess that's developmentally appropriate. There are things that we need to be talking about with kids about caring and nurturing because not, I think when people think about reproductive justice, they're automatically thinking like, oh, we have to talk about how the baby comes out and all this other stuff, but no, no, no, no. Train your baby to be a doula, okay? Like if you see somebody crying, go bring them a tissue, rub their back, ask them can you touch them? Ask them do you want me to give you a hug? Do you want me to help you with something? Let them cook to a nutritious little meal, like put some little vegetables in a bowl and bring it to you. That's how you can care for your mom. That's how you can care for your person. Like we remake things so complicated because we've been in the world for so long, but a lot of these babies have been in this world for five years. They have not been tainted by the world and the horrible pieces that come into it. And so I think we need to move away from the labels and focus on the culture and the community that we want to connect with. I think that's the most important thing. Because if you teach one child how to care and nurture for someone, that's going to translate throughout their whole life. I don't understand why we don't have a segment in early childhood education when we do all these different themes, how to care for one another, how to see each other, how to love one another. But we're so focused on these things that are sometimes kind of difficult conversations and we're missing a very vital point to change the culture of our communities forever. Just real quickly, I dropped into the chat. I got curious and I was like, can men be dualists? Like you do this. And so I found this cool article right here in the chat for you guys to look at. Yes. And for everybody listening, just Google it, can men be dualists? And interestingly enough, some people call them dude, Luz. Uh-huh. Yes, yes. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, so I think the one that you just said was this guy that is actually his sister. He became a doula for his sister. That's really empowering for a lot of people. Like can you imagine like a man coming into your space where it's like very like, you're just raw. When you have a baby, it's like, you're just out there in the world. And having somebody support you and hold you and embrace you in a way that you may have never been embraced before. And that trauma that that we that that piece that's reclaiming that space. Oh my gosh. I literally ended thinking about Maxine Waters like reclaiming my time reclaiming my time. [LAUGHTER] Look at that. Yes. Mike just showed me an image that's reclaiming my time. All right, so I know we only got five minutes left if you can spare us. And I only got two questions. First one is, can you imagine or just talk us through what it would look like if you were to have another child, right? And your current child is in child care. What would be an Afro-centric like mental family support that you would be looking for from your child care center? Woo, so I'm loving this. OK, first of all, let's talk about postpartum plan. One, if you have a black family, you know that they're pregnant. They're in your community. I would make sure that when they have resources, ask them do they have a counselor? Do they have a peer specialist, peer support specialist, meaning somebody that can talk with them, make sure that they are taking care of themselves. Again, too much support is not going overboard. It's not being needy. I want you to be needed. And that's definitely the way I plan to do my next bird. I'm going to be so needy, it is not going to be funny. And I'm calling it the new snapback, which is mental health. Making sure that I get the right nourishment. I'm going to let my people cook for me, make my food, make my meal plans. Making sure that I have all of my support groups in place, making sure that I have my environment, my home is in place. So really, early childhood educators need to understand what black counselors out there, what black support groups are out there, what black do those are out there, or do those that are allies that have worked with black families that understand different pieces, or are constantly being entraining and developing in that area. And then last but not least, ask your families how they want you to support them. Because I think one of the things that we tend to do, like we hear black, and we just blank it in. But there's a lot of different types of black folks out here. OK, like you go to the north, is different type of black folks, west, different types, east, down south, different types. All of us are different. So make sure you're looking at your families as individuals. Make sure that you're looking at the families, as people who you care about and you connect with, and be curious about who they are, and how you can support them in an individualized way. Because individual care is critical to black families and making sure that we're not blanketing them because they're black. And even, you know, I'm thinking about those families or the people out here who are listening, and like, well, I only have a black family, but I live in a really white, rural community. I'm like, oh, for do some about it, right? Yep. I thought you guys are going to be like, oh, I've one. There's no white doula, as I can't support you, advocate for a call sometimes. Yes. And my organization is actually doing something about that because in my space, it's very white. And we're looking for telecare communities. Minds is going to actually have, we're going to have a new space coming up here, pretty soon, called a doula directory. And it's got all these different doulas of color that will be available to people to connect with, because you just feel like the gang. Like, we have a whole new way of like connecting with people. So there are doulas that are literally streaming into people's hospital rooms on laptops and supporting families. So you can definitely have any type of support, any way you want. Also too, we're working on creating scholarships for people to become doulas that live in doula deserts. And you said your organization, did you drop that one more time for us? Yes, yes, it's called the Learning Project Network. You can follow us on Instagram at TLP Talk, or you can go to our website, www.tlptraining.com. Perfect. So this one is less of a question, more of an opportunity for you to close us out with anything we might have missed, or you just wanted to say it around two other BIPOCs, what other BIPOCs, four other BIPOCs around just supporting a person's journey for advocating for their own health and wellness. Yes. This is like so, this is a great piece of here. So I want you to remember that you are a human being. And you deserve respect. You deserve to be treated with dignity. You deserve to be able to speak up and speak out without fear. You deserve to petition your care the way you want. You deserve to implement any cultural pieces that you identify with into your practice of health. You have the right to demand what you need from the medical community, but you also have the right to demand what you need from your state, which is a community that says, your existence in the children you're bringing into this world matter. We cannot just look at the medical system and say, that's the problem. They are all horrible people. When our families are walking outside the doors of their home, what do they have access to? What can they walk to? What is their community saying about them? What is the heartbeat of our centers, early childhood educators, our trainings, saying to the kids and the families that we serve? We can only take so many circle time training, y'all. We cannot just sit and be comfortable. We are the first responders. I tell people we are the EMTs of early childhood education. We will see something, but a lot of times, we don't know how to communicate it, because we're not seen as professionals. We're not seen as advocates. We are not seen as people who have value. We are seen as babysitters. But something has shifted in change in our community, because this pandemic showed that we are important, and we are vital to the community. So we can't just say we're vital to the community. We have to put our money where our mouth is, and we have to advocate for our early childhood educators to get access to things that are not typical and not always in the box to help them serve their individual families in a unique way. And we can do this as a community, but we have to see the power and the beauty in everyone that comes into our community. And we have to be willing to put down our pride, our privilege, and power the parents to be parents the way they want. And I know we can do it, and I have very passions about that. And I know this year is going to be phenomenal for many people, because we are starting to wake up out of the very deep sleep. T-L-P training.com. That's all y'all need to know. Go to that website, hire this black woman. Let's listen to this little bit of system up. Thank you, thank you, my sister. Thank you guys so much for giving me the space to talk with you. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. It was a-- that was very enlightening. Opened my heart and my eyes. Like I said, very affirming as well. Appreciate you. Thank you.