Nabil Aliffi

Hi, this is Karen Harvey and you're listening to Fashion Tech Forum in the studio. Is creative the icing on the cake or is it the cake? Right. I think it's the cake. I know it's the cake. Right? And it's interesting you mentioned that there's this almost idea that creates an emotional or. I find it very interesting because one of the things that I watched my Harvard Business School essay started with, why creative directors be CEOs? Yes. And at Fashion Tech Forum, Angela Arren's for Aaron. She said it. She said the future will seem more chief creative offices running businesses because you're tapping on different parts of your brain. And you're also unlocking this powerful thing called intuition. And humanity. And humanity. Truly one of the more inspiring leaders that I've had the pleasure of working with, Nebula Levy is an extraordinary leader and brand builder who is bringing his deeply empathetic and finely tuned sensibilities to his new role as chief brand officer for Neem and Marcus. As Nebula was born and raised in Singapore, his story as an emerging fashion executive is as unique as it is inspiring. In this conversation Nebula steps us through his Singaporean heritage and enlightens us about their culture and the fact that at its base their culture is a true meritocracy, for hard work, dedication and the idea that there is always more out there for you was the foundation upon which Nebula believed he could follow his ambitions and inherent talent for working in luxury. At the same time as Nebula was discovering his creative talent in his mother's dress making shop, the Singaporean news outlets were starting to cover his creative work. Additionally, as Nebula was tapped into youth culture and had already interned in Paris, he started to realize that there was a hunger for culture and fashion within a new generation of Singaporeans who could not get this exposure in a country focused more on traditional careers and professions for their young talents in university. This led him to working with some other creatives to launch their magazine "Vulture", focused on fashion, art and style stories for a young audience of open-minded Singaporeans who did not have the same exposure to fashion and all its intersections as their peers growing up in Paris, London and New York City did. A self-proclaimed born hustler, it wasn't long before Nebula's work caught the eye of global brands. The first being urban outfitters in the UK. To their credit, they saw Nebula's raw talent and engaged him for a job while he was still in university. They also recognized that his unique pulse on culture was exactly what this brand needed in Europe. They decided to let him come in and bring his fresh talent to the creative and marketing teams in Europe without any corporate experience. His great success at urban caught the attention of Anne Pitcher at Selfridges and as she is one to spot the best talents, she saw the opportunity to acquire some of Nebula's special sauce and created a role for him. Here he had the incredible success of positioning Selfridges through a new lens and segwayed the brand onto new digital platforms while creating the framework to amplify both Selfridges and their brands through new creative content developed for and with its brand partners. As digital fashion director Nebula accomplished a great deal there. First he built a world-class creative team in house and ultimately the work they did was so good that many brands had them create their content including the highly coveted Chrome Hearts who had Nebula in his team work on their own campaigns. Next Nebula's pulled to Soohouse by founder Nick Jones where he made the decision to step away from fashion for a moment to accept a new challenge. Honoring and growing one of the greatest communities ever formed by harnessing and building on what makes Soohouse such an extraordinary brand. This platform was ripe for creating inspiring content and engaging its global and local members 24/7. Here Nebula also accomplished a great deal including launching their home collection. Over the years Nebula and I stayed very close always enjoying a meal a drink or a coffee somewhere in Europe. So when Jeff Lawvin Ramdunk CEO for Neumann Marcus recognized that he needed a new kind of modern leader who could take their marketing and brand building both for Neumann's and their brand partners to a new level we both knew that Nebula was the right choice. Nebula is now just four months into his tenure with Neumann Marcus and I could not be more thrilled to have him in the studio to share his story with you. We hope you enjoy this episode and thank you as always for joining me in the studio. Nebula, it's just an honor to have you with me and I was trying to think back Nebula when you and I first met. I think it was in Paris. I remember I was about to catch a train. Yes and I got an amazing call that day and said hey Karen Harvey wants to meet me and I said say no more. I'm resettling my train and I think we met at your hotel. I think we did. And it was such a fluid conversation too because you really wanted to get to know me and as are you and I think we had a very special chat that day. Yeah I think it was the beginning of what I would call like a proper friendship that we have continued and it's so rare and then of course we were able to do business together and you're now the chief brand officer. I think it's four months almost to the day. I remember yes for Neiman Marcus. Yes and that's a project we've probably talked about for the better part of a year and in that time you went to Harvard. You went to their executive. Yes I did the General Management Program. General Management Program which is really something we'll cover today but over the course of a year I think what Neiman Marcus saw that we've seen all along from our side was really rounding out an already very strong executive team with someone who had such relevant experience both globally in fashion next to fashion. So congratulations on that role. Thank you and thank you for having me. I think one of the things that really stuck with me even in our very early conversations was your desire to get to know the person. Yes not just the person who's been doing a specific role and that's something that that sticks with me even as I am in this role and I'm leading teams and people that you know at the end of the day you are dealing with people with emotions with feelings with aspirations and once you figure that out it makes the work a lot more rewarding. It's so true and I wouldn't have it any other way I think you know that about me by now because actually I really believe that the skill sets are what gets a person to the table to have a conversation with me about the role but it is really who they are that either satisfies what a company needs which is so much more in the end than purely the skill sets and and so if we're getting to know the client enough and the brand enough and what the needs are enough the only way is to really develop that relationship but it's not always as extraordinary as you and I have been able to really build so I'm so thrilled and what I'd love to start with this morning is really for you to share a little bit about some of the things you've shared with me you're upbringing if you will you're from Singapore I am from Singapore I'm Singaporean yeah so let's start there the origine we love an origin story yes we do yes we do so I I'm from Singapore my family's all still in Singapore I was there for 20 years my early education for all there so it's very much of my identity the way I think and Singapore is fascinating as this small country that punches above its weight and when you look at it you know it's it's almost a miracle how it's a thriving society it's multicultural it's innovative it has a draw for many different industries and in a way it shaped my worldview and it still does and how I think when it comes to ambition and what's possible Singapore really hardwise that in you believing in hard work believing in in merit so if you work hard you will get there you know there might be stumbling blocks along the way but it's meritocracy it is a meritocracy access to education is pretty great in Singapore you know I was very privileged to have good education really the values of hard work yeah that my parents instilled within me the friends that are also happy for you to succeed I'm still in touch with so many of my friends from childhood and then some of them are here in in New York where I live doing various different things but it's very inspiring so I want to say that my personal journey. I like to thank you. a reflection of what it means to be Singaporean? - That's really amazing. And I can't think of that many Singaporean executives in our industry, actually. So you've been breaking ground since almost day one, as one of the youngest executives working next to Ann pitcher at Selfridges and also doing the role that you did at Urban Outfitters for so long. But going back to Singapore for a moment, I was quite curious to find out about your family. Can you share a little bit about your heritage there? - Sure. So my mom is a dressmaker. She has a bridal business that she took over for my grandmother, which she started. - I mean, I just have to interrupt and say, these are the stories of our industry. - Right? It's just so fantastic. - It's in my blood. It's literally in my blood. And trust me, my parents tried very hard to persuade me from, you know, working fashion. - I mean, you studied math and-- - Oh, yeah. - Yeah. - I really sort of a traditional sort of education, if you will. - Yeah. - So, you know, you're gonna grow up and be a lawyer, doctor, because almost like a cliché that sort of Asian expectations. I don't speak for the entire Asian community, but I think that was my experience. But you always go back to the source. And the source is my grandmother started a business when my grandfather had passed away suddenly and she had to raise five kids. And, you know, she started importing, exporting, vintage furniture at the beginning. Which is incredible. As someone with no formal education, no private business experience, just out of necessity. - Yes. - I'm having to feed five children and she built this amazing wedding business. - Incredible. - And it was at the time where the local film industry was booming. - I see. - So she then lived on that street and she built a community around her business, which then my mother took over. - Weddings in Singapore, are they like India? In that they go for a week. - Oh, it's my go. - There's thousands of people. - Thousands of people. - That's big business. - It is. - It's big business here. But even there I would imagine there are many different dresses and gowns. - There are 2000 people at my sister's wedding. I don't know if that gives you a picture. - That is just unbelievable. - You know, it's a big deal. It's such a proud moment for Singapore and families for their children to get married. - Yes. - You know, a lot of people save up for that big. - Right. - So there's a lot of pressure, right? To make that special. And I think some of that has, I've carried with me in my work as well. - So did you watch your grandmother? - Did you learn the process? - Yes, I remember. I was supposed to be playing football with everybody else. And she was sewing. And I took scraps of fabric. And I started threading my own needle. And I started to make a bag. - I love this. - This point, I think I was getting too good at it. And my dad was getting a bit nervous. - Where are you going with this? - You might want to go outside and play with the boys. And my grandmother said, nope, he's going to stay with me and he's going to finish this bag. And that's such a beautiful story. - So good. - It was many, many years back now. It's maybe 10, 12 years ago, just before I left Singapore. And there would be these newspaper clippings of things that I had done locally. And one day she just came up to me and she handed me a folder. And she took out all of these clippings that she had saved. She didn't say anything and she just said, that's yours. - So what was in there? What did you accomplish in those days? - I am a hustler, you know, this about me. Any opportunity I would go and apply myself and you know, everything I've done from selling socks and having nickels. - I love it. - Being a dresser backstage at Singapore Fashion Week or the local art competition and you know, Singapore local news is very active. They like to cover stories that would inspire other Singaporeans and they would cover some of those stories and in my grandmother, they kept them. - Note to self those people who are listening out here who aspire to move to the States from any country outside the US for an '01 visa, you need press from back. - Exactly. - It doesn't matter when. So that was not an issue for you to apply for your own one. - She's taking care of this. I love that. And what about your dad? - So my dad works in shipping. I would say a pretty inspiring story at least to me. He is one of 10 children and he grew up on an island off the coast of Singapore. It's still Singapore but it's on an island called-- - 10 children. - 10 children called Pulao Brani. And he would tell me that to go to school, he had to go on a small boat. And he was the only one in his family who went to university. And when he passed his exams, his godmother will buy him a pen as a gift. And every year during the festivities we'll go back and visit this godmother of his. And I've always wondered why. He instilled in me, I think, this idea of giving back and always knowing where you came from, that visual of having to jump on a small boat to go to school. - I mean, it's really inspiring. - It really is so inspiring. And it makes me think about every time we speak and you have accomplished so much and you're incredibly humble. And I think that gift from your parents has gone such a long way. As we know, humility is one of the most important traits I think for a leader. I mean, if we're so focused on ourselves, how can we be focused on other people? - So at some point you decided you wanted to go to London to study, how did your parents react to that? - Well, it was many years in the making, at least within the spend of my teenagehood, it felt like forever. I think at 15, I went to a school married base where you had to study for this exam. And the top 1% of the people who took this exam get to go to this school. It's a hangover from when the British were in Singapore. It's called Raffles Institution. And it prides itself on reducing the future leaders of Singapore, let's put it that way. So highly, highly competitive. Just to give your visual, you go to school at 6 a.m. and there will be some prodigy on the piano playing Chopin, who also is the house captain, who also has like 7 a levels. - And the least bit intimidating. - And not the least bit intimidating. And you know there are only so many scholarships. - Yeah. - So it's a high-pressure environment where you have to perform. So you have to very, very early on figure out what you're good at. So that process of knowing yourself and knowing what your strengths are, it was compressed in this timeframe, leading up to the big exam, which is the A levels. - Yes. - You know, this feels quite a long time ago, but it's still fresh. - It's a big deal. - It's a big deal. And I thought, okay, I could probably do a bit of this or a bit of that, but I'm a creative. - Yes. - I'm a creative. - And not so many in Singapore or maybe many. - No, not at all. - Not many permitted sort of to pursue the creative. - And part of that is because the local creative economy is still very small. - Yes. - Right now if you go back, there's so many more talent compared to, you know, when I was in school. - You have to be very pragmatic whilst you're wanting to dream big and pursue your ambitions. So I sat down and we figured out, okay, what's the most likelihood of success in quotation marks, right? If I were to go down a fashion route or if I were to go down any other route. And let me say, first of all, to have those options is incredible. - It's incredible. - It's incredible. - Yes. - But it's a competitive environment and I decided, okay, you know what? I want to be in the world of fashion and business. So I went to London College of Fashion, but studying the business side of fashion. But still having the, being part of the ecosystem of some of the most amazing stylists, photographers, designers. - And you were very young when you went. - I was 20. - We were 20. - Yeah, I was 20. - Okay, so. - 'Cause remember we had National Service. - Right. - National Service. - Of course. - It wasn't the military. It sounds fancier than it is. 'Cause I wouldn't trust me necessarily. (laughing) - To fight a battle, but it's a peacekeeping core as well. - Yeah. - So I interrupted you. So you went to London College of Fashion and-- - Went to London College of Fashion. - It's a fashion. - Yes. But before that, I had done almost a year in Paris. - Right. - Because I had this incredible opportunity. It was almost like a proof of concept. - Yeah. - To my parents. - Okay, can you really make this work? - Yeah. - We don't know anybody who works in fashion. - Let alone someone who's gonna go abroad. - We have no context. - We have no context of what? - Right. - This could look like as a career. - Contacts or a context. - Exactly. - Yes. - Exactly. - I spent the year assisting Patrick Kabasey, who's the editor-in-chief of Lofi-Cyll at that point. How I got that opportunity was right place at right time, 'cause I was assisting backstage at Singapore Fashion Week and he had been there. - I mean, talk about-- - I remember the story. - Korea Angels who opened the door for you. - You know, I mean, my career has been full of people who've paved the way. - So beautiful. - Extending a helping hand. So when you look at it from a distance like, wow, you've done all this, but actually no, I've been the beneficiary of a lot of people who trusted and gave me that opportunity. - So step us through. - Right. - So you had that year? - I had that year, life changing. - Yep. - It gave me a taste of what it's like to work in this amazing industry. But also a taste of how it operates at the highest level. - Yes. - You're in Paris. You're at one of the most dynamic, reputable magazines in the world working as an assistant to the editor in chief with no formal fashion education or experience and you live somewhere else, you know, in a different part of the world. So that was a very formative experience to build confidence. And then I went to London College of Fashion as I said, but I had the idea to then start a magazine because the experience in Singapore and the experience in Paris informed me that there is a gap. When I look at my friends, they are not wanting to dress like the parents or they're not looking at the same references, they're not opening, you know, society pages or the more traditional publications. There is a burgeoning sense of style and sensibility that I thought was unique. And this was the early 2000s. No, this was 2010, 2010, 2011. And I realized that, okay, maybe there's something here. And it just so happens that I was surrounded by people who I thought could make up the team. You know, it wasn't on the back of a napkin and go, this is the business plan. This is what we want to do. That's like, get in the market. It's rarely like that. No, it's like, oh, so and so is great at photography. So let's just try it. I mean, what's that to lose? Right. And I have got three years of school. And it gives me access to London. It's a great way to get involved in the industry. So for those of you who are listening, how do you get the opportunity and experience? I always look at, okay, what do I already have? And how much can I leverage what I already have to give me access to through those doors that we spoke about? So this magazine actually did really well. It did very well. And you worked with some brilliant people. And it got the attention of quite a few people as well. It did. Which ended up being a springboard for you. It did. So what was a backyard project, you know, turned out to be a viable business. Yes. So two issues in, no experience in publishing whatsoever. And we had Chanel as an advertiser. Right. I don't think at that point I knew how special, what that meant, how special it was. And because we were just rolling with the punches, you know, we got, we're going to think about the next issue. Are we working with the most exciting people? So we also culture and style. Yes. And you were really of the moment and probably one of the first kind of entrepreneurial steeped in culture. Right. From a fashion lens. Yes. And we were amazing. Thank you. And we were in Singapore. So that was a, to me, that wasn't a weakness. That was a strength. Right. Because people in Paris were curious how people in Singapore were, you know, addressed. Right. And obviously it creates sort of this two-way portal. And we got, we got to profile some amazing artists. So, you know, we had the idea of, okay, maybe we'll be interesting to have a Chanel spread next to an interview with Iway Way and Chai Quo Chiang. So let's just mix it all up. As long as it's not just about looking expensive. And I think this is a big lesson for me in that as we talk about luxury, as we talk about creating a good product, it's not just about it looking expensive. Right. You know, price is just one of the markets of luxury. You know, we're at new and markets now and really thinking about when we talk about luxury, what do we really, really mean? It's not about how expensive a carbon is. It's how it makes you feel. It doesn't make you dream. And Vulture Magazine at that point, I think, was a reflection of a whole new generation of consumers who wanted to dream slightly differently. Yes. It's not about the glitzy, glittery head-to-toe look. It's like, oh, I'm curious about Yeo Ji Yamamoto. Right. I'm curious about really engaging with fashion at a more intellectual, cultural level. And will you were really at that moment bringing youth culture, cross-culturally, globally, you know, cross-continentally, and bringing something that really was happening in just different pockets, I think, around the world? And what are some of the kind of magical things that came out of that experience? Who contacted you? Who did you meet? Right. How did this kind of come to be? I went to a press day in London where I was based at that point, and Urban Outfitters said, this is interesting. First of all, you're awfully young. Yes. I look about 12 now. I probably look right at that point. Are you here? Are you the intern? Where's Yeo? Ji Yamamoto. And I'm like, no, it's me. Hi. I would love that. And they had a role. They had an art director position. And this was in the second year of university. And they said, hey, you know what? Let's have a chat. Let's have coffee and see. You know, I didn't think much of it. And a couple of conversations later, and they said, we should like to be our art director. And they said, you got the wrong guy. I still at university. Are you sure? Right. And they said, no, I think it will be very interesting because Urban at that point was expanding significantly outside of the US. Yes. And it's a household name in America, but it's not outside of the state. So you are the customer. Yes. Why don't you tell us how it should be interpreted? Very, very smart. Credit to, you know, the leadership team there. And that was my first sort of quote unquote adult job. Do you think at the time you knew exactly what an art director did? I had no clue. Right. I had no clue, but I'm a house. Yes. I will learn. Yes. I remember the first year was really tough because that learning curve was very, very, very steep. And for me, what I found most intimidating was not the idea thing or coming up with the shoot concept. It was sitting in the in the boardroom. And it took me many, many years to get out of that nervousness when you're entering a boardroom because it's a very combative environment. It can be a combative environment. Yes. Right. And let's not forget high street retail is highly commercial. Yes. Some of the best merchants come from high street. Right. As you know, they want things understandable. Understandable. You know, talking about what they did last year and what they're going to do. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. And they want me a while to build the confidence. Right. To say, actually, no, I have this point of view. And I think you might want to hear it because it could really help shift your merchandise. So the first year, growing in mind, I was still at university. And I was working a part-time job in Harvey Nichols, like I mentioned, sending socks. Yes. And I was very good at it. Of course you were. It was a lot. Socks are highly underrated. I agree. I think we talked about this a last time. Yes. You're not the best friend. We love socks. Yes. We love socks. And yeah, anyways, what it taught me was never give up. I had one meeting where I had a very, very wild up merchant. And we had gone a bit more artistic with the casting. And he slammed. He slammed the contact sheet on the table. And he said, I have never seen anything worse in my life. Everyone needs that experience at least once. And it was so. So, character building. Thank you for this. But wait a minute. I just have to ask a question. Isn't that like a Singaporean thing to get shouted at? No, no, no. This optimism, this things are an opportunity. Or is that just in my mind? I think that's a survival thing. It's a survival thing. Yes. Let's not forget, Karen, at the end of my time at university, I needed a job that would sponsor Visa. Yes. So, time is ticking. I look at some of my friends who are talented creatives, you know, graduate of Central St. Martin. Yes. You know, the most amazing CV and they don't lend a job because Visa is such a blocker. Yes. So, I figured, how do I maximize this opportunity that's literally been handed to me on a silver platter, right? And I've got one more year. So, that was my audition year, if you will. Right. Right. So, I threw everything in it. And they did sponsor you. They did. And how did you get them to sort of shift from, yes, this is experimental, but it's working. How did you draw those connections for them? Or were they just seeing it organically? I think part of that was organic. In the year, we restructured the creative team. We were better photographers. We got better at casting. So, through that process, I guess what you call the, the brand identity. Yes. It became more clear and it was emerging. As I was making it up, as I went along, the output was very focused. That was the thing that they judged me by. Yes. Right. There was still plenty to learn, a lot to learn at that point in course. But I had really good leaders who protected me, stretched me and challenged me and over time built this confidence. I can't say this more because confidence is so integral to being creative. You're not confident in your ideas. How are you going to articulate it? How are you going to then impact your customers with your point of view? It's really fascinating because we had opened an office in London in 2000. And I guess two. So, by the time you were there, we became well aware of what you were doing and aware of your name as well. But we didn't meet, of course, until much later. But it was incredible that the powers that be, that Meg and Dick didn't hate and think about, "Gosh, urban in London, Europe has to look like urban in the US." Like, they just didn't think that way. Which was so fantastic because you really moved the needle creatively. I mean, urban outfitters was a much more elevated experience at that. time due to a lot of the work that you continue to do. Do you agree with that? One thing that Urban taught me was to really love your customer. Yes. And Dick Meg, Sowato, who is there, Emma Wiston, Simon Breyer, all these people really loved the customer. And they want to feel to listen to what the customer is telling them. It's one thing to have 40-year-olds or 50-year-olds telling you what's cool. It's another thing to see a pair of theirs. Telling them, "Actually, this is what my friends are wearing. This is how we're communicating." And this was in the advent of Instagram when it was such a new thing. Exactly. Visual language, which it was all changing. This high-gloss type of advertising approach is all of that was getting disrupted. So credits to your point, Dick and Meg, they're always curious about that customer because they love that customer. I've not worked at a place more where there was almost a cult around that customer in terms of how they think, how they live. And I think if you're going to an Urban Alphardist now, you would still get that energy because it's changing every day. It's incredible. Some of the micro trends that they work through bubble up even before it hits and in some of their other brands as well, I think. I think three people have a full of people. It's fantastic right now. Fashion Tech forums theme this year is all about exploring a world emerging from chaos. While we are finally beginning to emerge from a three-year-long pandemic, we are also living in a world that is in many ways still shrouded in chaos. For me, this particular time is about expressing gratitude for my own life while being constantly concerned about those under great duress in the world. This podcast gives us at KHC an opportunity to share our belief in the importance of taking care of our communities and in helping those facing challenges that many of us could never imagine or understand. It is in this spirit that we wanted to forego the traditional sponsorship approach so that we could use this opportunity to give a shout out and some airtime to those who we believe are doing incredible and heroic work to help those who are in much less fortunate circumstances than we are. Every time I read something or hear about the work of World Central Kitchen, Chef Jose Andres' extraordinary organization, I've been practically moved to tears. World Central Kitchen has been feeding thousands of people fresh, nourishing meals as soon as possible after humanitarian climate and community crises since 2010. They build resilient food systems with locally-led solutions driven by the belief that food is a humanitarian right. We are genuinely moved and inspired by Chef Andres' mission and urge all of us to bear in mind his powerful words. You'd be amazed that the power of a plate of food it can change the world and so can you. Thank you for taking the time to check out this incredible initiative. Please visit wck.org to make a donation or to volunteer for World Central Kitchen. You went to study business. You had this creative bend all the way back to sitting with your grandmother and then your mother and really looking at this creative business, but you didn't go into making clothes. No. You ended up in this incredible world of bringing actually the clothes to life, actually the product to life, the environment to life. Did you know this was a job before you? Not at all. No. If I had to describe to an 18-year-old in the bill in Singapore, like, "Hey, this is what you'll be doing." I would have had so many follow-up questions. What does that mean? What is a brand officer? We live in a world now where companies are not afraid to build roles around individuals. Yes. I think that's a good thing. Yes. Because then you're able to harvest all of the experience that they have, all of the new art talent with the individual. I think I've benefited from that. Now you got lured away by eventually and herself, picture at Selfridges. What was that like? So Karen, you know in London Selfridges is like a temple. Anyone who is studying fashion, you know, there's a saying that you go to Selfridges to get your other half of fashion education. So for me, it's almost untouchable, at least if you live in London. And when I got the call to say, "Hey, we've heard about you and why didn't you come in for a chat?" I didn't think much of it because the process again took more than a year because they were trying to find a role that would play to my strengths. And I was very upfront like, "Hey, I'm not this. I'm not that. This is who I am because I don't want to fool you into thinking that I'm one thing." But I was very drawn obviously by a company that puts creativity at its driving force. There are not many businesses out there that you have. I mean, it's so rare. It's so almost none, actually. So rare. And especially in retail. Yes. Yes. I would agree with that. And I was so enamored by it. And then when they said, "Hey, we want to build a role where you lead the campaigns, you lead." We're very good at Windows. We're very good at our stores, but we have opportunity to tell the story through our imagery, through the narratives that we put out there. I said, "Say no more. This is, you know, I'm going for that." And I joined as the digital fashion director, which is incredible. And I was 26 at that point. And digital fashion director, which I think is very important to emphasize because you were of that wave, as you said. I think Instagram was founded in 2011 or 2012. So it really wasn't very long after that. And did that wave being in the world digitally? Was that something that must have come very naturally to you? Of course, when you're young and technology at the time, you're using everything. But how did you think about creating something that actually Self-riches didn't really have this at the time? So you really were part of building that from scratch. Yes. So I was responsible for the campaigns, but I also was also made responsible for the photos studio, which was a big operation. It's a highly productive site. And that's pure commerce. And I thought that was very interesting because it played on the two sides of my brain. But how I did it is by making sure I spent enough time building the right team. You know, I had some of the most talented people joined the team because they believed in the vision that we were trying to set out. So it wouldn't be cool if Self-riches wasn't just a retailer that carried a couple of brands, like some of the most amazing brands. What if it's a brand in itself? Right. And we're able to amplify this. And we're able to create exclusive content or even shoot the campaigns for those brands. One of the best projects so relevant even for right now. Even for right now. Yes. One of the projects that I really, you know, was a stand-up for me was my boss at that time, Sebastian Means, introduced us to Laurie Lynn Stark of Chromehards. Yeah, love Laurie. Amazing. Yes. And you know Laurie. I do very well. Yes. And we got to collaborate on the brand campaign. Incredible. Let's just let that sink in for us. Yeah, no kidding. Chromehards. The most, you know, special brand that prides itself on keeping everything normal. Yes. You know, saying, "Hey, Self-riches, let's work together on our brand campaign." And at that point, they were launching fragrance. And I think you were there two and a half years. Two and a half years. It was incredible, like, working with Pat McGrath. Right. Let's like not forget the 18-year-old in the bill, looking at fashion magazines wasn't too long ago. Yeah. So just soaking everything in and, you know, take what you can from the experience, learn from as many people as possible, and then, and then you get on your journey. Before we move on to the next stage of your journey, at this point, you're using all raw talent. And I, a taste level, some kind of technical acumen, you had created vulture with a small but wonderful group of people. I don't think that, you know, people who do what I do, many brands, many people that are building teams think enough about, you weren't educated in photography or art or creative direction. And here, you had that vision, that natural acumen. What can you say about that? I think I knew every time I enter a room, what I'm going to bring to the tape. I think this is very important because knowing what you're not, how people place you. And you're right. I'm not a photographer, not a stylist. You know, I write, but, you know, there are many other more brilliant journalists out there, but I make it happen as the orchestrator. Yes. Right. And that's such an important role, I think, because identifying talent and positioning them, and a lot of this is what you do, Karen, to make things possible is a huge part of what it means to be a creative director. And you said something else that I just want to go back to for a moment before we move on, which is confidence. Yes. So one of the things I found over the years is that many people say, well, creatives are very sensitive and things like that. And I think actually most humans are sensitive. I think it's extremely difficult to separate oneself from one's creative work. Yes. It feels like if somebody is criticizing my work, they're criticizing me. So there's a lot in there to sort of separate that and help creatives know that you made this, you can make that, you can improve upon that. What do you do to give creatives confidence when they're lacking or when they're nervous about presenting to a board or sharing their ideas? I think part of it is knowing which had to put on. Is it the left brain that I need to put on today or the right brain? And I think what I've done successfully that's led me to this point is being able to frame the creative work because there are many creatives out there that produce amazing work, some are more successful than others. And the ones that are successful are framed in the right way and has an end use. Yes. Right? So we have a business problem to solve. This creative is the cog that actually helps the whole thing. It's the vehicle. Come together. Yes. Right? And I think you and I, Karen, we've spoken a lot about is creative the icing on the cake or is it the cake? Right. Right? And it's interesting you mentioned that there's this almost idea that creatives are emotional or I find it very interesting because one of the things that I watched my Harvard Business School essay started with, why concreative directors be CEOs? Yes. And at Fashion Tech Forum, Angela R. and Jill Perrin, we said it. She said, the future will be, we'll see more chief creative offices running businesses because you're tapping on different parts of your brain. Yes. And humanity. And humanity, which in a world of all this emerging next level technology will be the most important thing. Completely. And I couldn't stop smiling when I heard her say that. Well, I always think about your leadership as being able to give people this safe space to ideate, to create, and to almost clear their minds so that you really do put the end goal in front of them. And I wonder if working with founders or working with Anand Pitcher, who of course is not a founder of the psychonic self-rejez. A visionary leader. A visionary leader. And then of course, you went on to work with Nick at Soho House. So working next to these people, I imagine has given you so much. You're also such a great listener. You're reading everything in the room. But that's another kind of creativity actually. That's an interesting take for sure. Because I think I've mentioned this to you. The first 10 years of my creative education was spent in theater. Right. And when you're on stage, you have to respond to your fellow actors' cue. Yes. Everything. Yes. From the costume to the gestures. All of it. So when I enter a room, A, I have to read the room. Yes. If there's already someone who's playing the alpha, I cannot play the alpha two. You know why? There'll be like two different plays. Yes. Right. And to my point earlier, to be successful, I think you need to know what part you need to play. It's something that I try to live out every day. And different times of day might require you to play different roles. I think as you move up the organization, you have to do that. Yes. To answer your question, how is it like working with a legend like Nick Jones, Thor and Pitcher? You have to be part of the ensemble. You cannot be part of your own monologue. How that's so profound. There are many people that make a piece of work sing. Whether you're an art director on set, you've got to respond to the photographer. You've got to respond to the model. And different sets have got different alphas. This set could be, wow, it's a top model. So let's take her cue. Yeah. And not being afraid to not be secondary, but let someone else lead. I think active leadership in itself. 100%. You don't always have to be the loudest voice in the room. Sometimes it's best not to be. And really listen to what is it that that visionary leader wants to achieve? That's why it worked with Nick. Right? The role that I had with Nick was the first Chief Creative Officer role that he's ever had. And when we had that chat, he said, "Hey, I want you to join Sohause." I was nervous because I had no idea what that would entail. It's also hospitality. And leaving fashion. And leaving fashion, which I truly, truly love. But you choose your partner. And I think Nick really showed to be a great partner because he was also willing to listen. So he became a dialogue. And I think some of my greatest learnings have been during that chapter of my career so far. So you step into Sohause. You trusted Nick. You understood a degree what he wanted to accomplish. Bring us to opening Paris. And what he really wanted to accomplish. I think just a step back from that. If I could summarize Sohause chapter was, Nick and I saw I to I, in terms of what we think makes something tick. Yes. And his gift as a founder is boiling things down to its essence. That's such a difficult thing to do. So true. If you go into Sohause, it's what's not there that speaks so much about what the experience is. Because we're so clear about what we're trying to achieve. And where he and I connected was, it's not the environment. Yes, there's beautiful interiors, there's beautiful facilities. What makes Sohause tick? Is the quality of the members? Yeah, community. Is the community? It's the most impressive community ever built. Ever. Ever. And that helped shape my thinking as a brand officer now boiling things down to its simplest form. Nick taught me that. We learn so much along the way if we're really paying attention. And these mentors for you have been partners. Absolutely. As well. And that's so much to your credit. So since I have so little time, I'm going to jump right in to Neiman Marcus. I can say from where I was sitting when we were having this conversation that it felt very important to me that Neiman Marcus was able to take this iconic, it's so much more than a store. This, I felt it was a brand, not a brick and mortar or a digital environment selling brands. I've always perceived as Neiman Marcus being a brand. And I felt that it was time for that brand to elevate into community, actually. And when Jeff Was stepped in, that ability to really bring high taste and that what is luxury? Help to find that again for the consumer. And you, I knew, would be pivotal to that and goal. Your four months in. Tell us a little bit about what it's been like. In a way, it's a new experience, a retailer of its scale in North America with so much history. Yes. 116 years old. Danting in a way. Danting in a way, but going back to confidence, you know, I went to the ringer. Yes. And I think the previous chapters, if they hadn't been there, I don't think I would have had the confidence to step into this role. And I took that sabbatical too. Yes. So I could reframe and make sure that I can manage myself as a leader. To be effective. And four months in, everywhere I look at, I see opportunity. So the role ingredients are there. How exciting is it to be able to shape, you know, along with the team, this legacy brand? You know, the only reference point I have in terms of what Neiman's mean to Americans and to people globally, I want to say, with definitely in the fashion communities, like what Singapore Airlines means to Singaporean? Oh, that's such a great analogy, of course. It's a national carrier. Does Neiman's pride? That's beautiful. That's so true. And I remember this. Most people are not still working in doing what I'm doing today. But Stanley Marcus had this belief that your buyers and your fashion directors and during fashion weeks and wherever they travel in the world, if they stay in the same hotels and they dine in the same restaurants as their customers that they will experience through the lens of those people, what luxury is or how they perceive it. How do you think about that? Stanley Marcus, well, I basically poured myself into his biography before I started, because I really wanted to understand what makes this place tick. And so much of Neiman's history is rooted in this man's vision. And it was very progressive for its time. It still is. They used to organize these fortnights. Yes. As the name suggests, it's two weeks of taking over a store. Yes. Most of them were in downtown in Dallas. And it would be themed, whether it's Paris one day, career the next day. And they would do these beautiful posts But really what Stanley did was to make Neiman Marcus a portal of discovery. For the Neiman Marcus customer, it's a portal of discovery for some of the most wonderful brands you can get in the world. For the brand partners is an in-road into the true luxury American consumer. Kristen Diole and Coco Chanel, Diole were charmed by Stanley to come to Dallas and that was the beginning of having a US business, which then allowed them to scale and do the incredible things that they've done. And the art world too. And the art world. They really brought the collectors world inside the world of fashion. On the parallel's funny, that's very so house. It is. If you think about it, it's plus brutality to end through. It's very today. It's very intersection, music, fashion, art, culture, so much so. A piece of confluence and beauty is that there's 36 stores across America. So these are all hubs. You know, our physical stores are very important to us. Because without it, it's not an integrated retail offering. The idea that you could get introduced to a brand online on neiman Marcus.com or on the app and then experience it in store. Yes. With an amazing style advisor. That's the full experience. And what you walk away remembering is, ooh, I had such a great time at neiman Marcus. I can't really pinpoint what it is. All those things. I leave with this warmth. I call it the Southern charm and Southern hospitality. But that's so integral to the brand that I cannot wait to unpack and elevate. So, are you the first chief brand officer for neiman Marcus? As I'm sitting here, I wonder, you might be. Maybe. Maybe. I'm sure there are, you know, in its 116-year history, there are many people who. Incredible creative people. Stemning Marcus the first of us, you know, and carrying neiman's. And before that was even coined as a job. Right. But I think it's very exciting to have a team that thinks about neiman's as a brand, first and foremost, 24/7. What do you have to learn when you think about looking ahead to completing your first year and looking ahead to year two? What are you most excited to learn? How are you going about that? And what are your personal goals? One thing that I put on a notepad before I joined, before my first day was, you've got to meet the customer where they are. It's very tempting to project your previous experience, the previous customers that you have served, and almost project that onto them. Yes. And you've got to respect the customer and you've got to respect where they are, their lifestyle. They have a life before you join their. You're a guest. Wow. You are a guest in their house. You have to be a guest. You've got to be respectful. You've got to listen before you start making your mom. And if they allow you to. Yes. So that privilege has to be earned. And I think for me, that's something that I keep at the back of my mind as I take on this task of reimagining, elevating this history brand. And if that means sometimes moving slower than usual, that's the perfect speed. Because you don't want to get it wrong. You know, I have a team that keeps me honest and, you know, as you look at your team, you also have to make sure that you protect the institutional knowledge. There have been people at Neemans who have been there for 20, 30 years. And sometimes they don't get called upon because, you know, they're not the new. They're not the new shiny thing. Shiny thing. Yes. So back to, you know, the leadership, my job now is really just to listen actively to the customers, to the leaders, to the team. And I think each city that we're in has the opportunity to be its own magical club. Brilliant. Oh my gosh, such career already. What an amazing journey and you're still 12 years old. I'm still 12. I don't know. Going one-third of the team. I don't know how this happened, you know. We spoke a little bit about DEI. Yes. And I know that Neeman Marcus is one of the most committed companies in our industry in America anyway in the States to inclusivity and having people feel like there is a place for everyone. Yes. In the company. How does that make you feel? And what has that been like for you for this to be such a core value in the company? I think it was pivotal in my joining. You know, one of the questions that I'd like to ask before I join a team is, what is the culture there? And I think credit is to Jafua and Eric and team for building a culture where people feel that they belong. Regardless of your identity, you come as you are. And as we look at Neeman's journey moving forward, we are proud to stand for excellence. We are proud to send for craft for the most sublime. But as we do that, I remind the teams that we've got to widen the aperture. If we are a place where people come to dream, people need to be able to see themselves in that dream. 100%. If this dream is just very hard, you would be proud. It's very hard with a person taught like this at that level. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. You know, the price points, there's so many barriers. But I go back to my own personal experience. If an 18-year-old me looks at Neeman Marcus and can see myself as a customer one day. It's wonderful. It's not for me now or it's inspired me to dream bigger. So it's really important, I think, to have that as the lens through which we operate, leading with love is one of the core values. And I have to say, I see it being lived through every day. It's easy to say these big statements, but to live it through. It's more dangerous if you're not willing to live it. Exactly. But I think the commitment is really there. I think the positive intent is there. And it's a muscle that you've got to exercise. I'm super, super excited to be part of the Neeman family and thanks to you for seeing me and honoring my story. And hopefully, we would inspire a handful of people to go for it, to dream bigger, to what's there stopping you, right? Well, it's a beautiful way to close and it's been an honor and I just can't wait to be able to watch your progress and your success there. So thank you for being with me today. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoyed our program. You can subscribe to Fashion Tech Forum in the studio wherever you like to listen to podcasts. This season of Fashion Tech Forum in the studio is being taped from Nasdeck MarketSight in Times Square. It is co-produced by Ron Barron and his team, Natasha Puri, Leah Danley and Sarah Fadhani from Nasdeck. It is also co-produced by Michael Simonelli and Megal Janardon of Charts and Leisure and by my wonderful co-founder of FTF and Index, Myologic. This program is executive produced by Jason Ulberholzer and me, Karen Harvey. Our theme music was written and performed by the amazing Michael Simonelli.