Mystery Of The Disappearing Man - Belgrade, Montana

This week, in Belgrade, Montana, a man disappears seemingly into thin air, but a friend of his says he doesn't want to be found and ran away to start a new life with a blonde and a small red car. Will some lies and brain matter found in a curtain tell a different story? Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy, bonkers, as usual, Small Town. I'll just say, welcome to another Small Town Murder episode where we have crazy murders happen all the time. You're going to have a wild show today. We have a crazy one for you. Before we get started, let's get started. Let's get started. Before we get to that, definitely get on ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Head over there. Get your tickets to live shows, last two of the year. And we have to announce that 2027 schedule is coming out very soon, and those tickets are going to be on sale in December for next year's tour as well. This year, last two left, Tarrytown on November 13th. Not sure if there's any tickets really left for that, but check it out. There might be a few. And then the next night, on November 14th, we are in Medford, right outside Boston. And we have a great show there, too, at the Chevalier, so be there. Get your tickets right now for those. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com is the place to do that. Definitely do that. Also, listen to Crime and Sports. Check out Your Stupid Opinions if you want to have some laughs. And then for sure, for sure, get Patreon, everybody. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports, just like the name of that other show that you should listen to. Patreon is P-A-T-R-E-O-N. You're going to love it, I'm telling you. Anybody, $5. $5 a month or above, you get everything we put out. Everything. And it is. So much. Yeah. As soon as you subscribe, you're going to get hundreds of back bonus episodes. Almost 400 of them immediately upon subscription. It's like a whole new thing to binge. Then you get new ones every other week. One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder, and you get them all, everybody. Every bit of it. Take all of it. For Crime in Sports this week, we're going to do, and this was a real crowd pleaser, so we had to go back to it here. In other unrelated old-timey news, weird articles that are kind of, next to articles that we use in old-timey newspapers and stuff, and they're so much fun. My God, we were dying at that one. Then, for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about the documentary that's on Netflix right now called Widower Till Death Do Us Part, and it's about a guy who had six wives and four of them were dead, and he's under 130 years old, so that seems abnormal to have that many dead wives. And we'll find out exactly what happened there. It's really crazy stuff. That's patreon.com. That's patreon.com. That's a great show, everybody. I'm afraid so. This is a comedy show. It's also a murder show, so you go, well, that's kind of weird. How do those things go together? Wow. Not as strangely as you'd imagine, actually. Yeah. It's pretty easy to find things to make fun of. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff to make fun of in a murder story. Think about it. At some point, someone goes, hmm, I'm going to do this. I'm pretty sure I can get away with this, and they have a plan, and then it goes awry. So, I mean, come on. We're going to make fun of that person. Maybe a small-town police force didn't see some clues and let this person go. Read a murder. Well, then guess what? They're going to catch a couple, too. And then on top of that, we're all from somewhere that deserves to be made fun of, so there's going to be some town stuff. It's a lot of fun, though. I'll tell you that right now. Here's what we don't do, though, is we never make fun of the victims. No. Or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes. But. But we're not scumbags. That's how it works. So, it's pretty simple. If you think that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a hell of a fucking crazy, funny, wild show. If you think that crime and comedy and all that. And murder should never go together. Well. You might not like the show, but you might. That's the thing. I don't know. I would stick around, maybe, and see and make sure. But either way, no complaining later. Right. That said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say? To sit back. Here we go. Clear the lungs here. There we are. Uh-huh. Arms to the sky. And let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do it. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Where to? We're going to Montana. Here we go. Space. Wide open. Pack the bags. Yeah. Big sky. Big. Yeah. Big land. Big everything up there. It's just a big open space. High plains. High plains. Yes. This is Belgrade, Montana. Uh-huh. It is in southwestern Montana. And it's about 20 minutes to Bozeman. About an hour and a half to Helena, which is the capital of Montana. Yeah. Six hours to our last Montana episode, Sydney, Montana, which six hours in Montana is nothing. That's a day's drive. It's like Texas. You can just keep driving and you'll still be in Montana. That was episode 694 of Mice and Men and Murder. And murder. That was a fun episode. I remember that was a crazy one. This is in Gallatin County, area code 406, motto, where the hell am I? What is this? There's nothing around here. Where am I going here? History of this town. Yeah. The original town site was established in 1883 when the Northern Pacific Railroad came through here. It's one of those towns. The original town was, the whole thing was kind of put together by a guy named Thomas Quaw, Q-U-A-W. He was a businessman who was from the Midwest in 1891, and he filed with Montana's Gallatin County Courthouse. He filed an application for Belgrade, Montana as a blind railroad siding. His intentions made it clear. He said it was a blind railroad siding, and now they wanted it to be a full-fledged town. Right. So he's into this. Now, it was named Belgrade after the capital of Serbia. Okay, yeah. Because the investors who helped finance this portion of the railroad were Serbian. They were Serbian. So we thought we'd throw them a bone here. A little homage. Yep. And so then the Quaw guy and some other guy made Belgrade Grain and Produce Company and marketed Belgrade for people to come here and to farm here as, quote, the princess of the prairies. She's a real princess. That's Belgrade. She's pretty. Here's some reviews of the town. Let's find out what people have decided about this place, because we've never been there. So what the hell do we know? Five stars. Belgrade is a beautiful place with kind people. Kind people. People, too. All kind. It's growing too fast for its infrastructure, so traffic can be rough. Since it's a small town, it doesn't bother most people. The traffic, I assume. Yeah. With everything going on in the world, it's nice to have a place to live that's not quite as crazy as a city, but not isolated like a small town. Imagine what that person is like. Yeah. No shit. All the cities, they're all. Yeah. Ruthless. That's, I believe, called a suburb. That's what that's called when they do that. Not quite a city, not quite as well-towned. Yeah. This person's scared everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. This person's scared of the teenagers hanging out in the In-N-Out parking lot. That's very afraid. They go to Disney, and they're like, can we go back to where there's just traffic? Exactly. Here's four stars. I've lived my whole life here. Actually, I've lived her my whole life, is what they say. Her. Her. I've lived her. I've lived her my whole life since 1992, so not that long. Yeah. It has grown so, all caps, much, but still has a small-town feel. I enjoy the community love of our farmer's markets, fall festival, and our new Christmas convoy. What the fuck is that? I've seen that. They have that kind of Poughkeepsie there where they just have this convoy of fire trucks and shit decorated. Oh, like a small-town parade. Not a parade, really, but it's kind of a parade, I guess. It's just Christmas lights. It's a fucking parade. They drive down and be porns and shit. They drive down and shit. Yeah. But, yeah, it's, I don't know, whatever. I plan to grow old and raise my children here. Yeah. Well, then, that's quite the plan. And here's- 92, and they're already born in 92. They're already planning on retiring. Well, I mean, Christ, they're mid-30s, I guess, by now. Oh, yeah, I guess that's true, huh? It feels younger, but- Shit. That person's got gray hair. Fucking A. That person's got arthritis. Yep. Here's four stars. Belgrade is a serene small town. A small town. Serene. Oh, boy. Well, it is grown, it is grown each year. Every year, it comes back up from the earth in the spring. It's risen. It's a nice crop here. And the reason is because this area of Montana is beautiful. Right? The town is surrounded by mountains and wildlife. The beauty of Mother Nature is breathtaking. They don't say if that's- I agree with that sentence. They don't say if that's- if that's here or just in general. Mother Nature is a motherfucker. Yeah, Mother Nature is pretty amazing. Three stars. There hasn't been any natural disasters for many years. Well, that's bad. That's interesting. That means you're due. I suppose. I don't know what goes on up there as far as natural disasters go. That means one's on the fucking clock, man. The winter gets a little cold and snowy, but nothing like the East Coast. Okay, that sounded spurious to me, so I looked that up. Horse shit. This place gets. Montana gets dumped on. This particular town gets, on the average, like five feet of snow a year. We know where. Find me a place on the East Coast that's not northern Maine that gets five goddamn feet of snow. None of them do. It's not that cold. And it's cold as shit there, too. It's cold. It's rough. Oh, God. Montana's already gotten snow this year. That's what I mean. It's wild. Here's two stars. Belgrade was supposed to be a cheap town on the outskirts of Bozeman. It is supposed to be a place the working class can live and enjoy while taking work opportunities from Bozeman. You know, a suburb is what he's getting at. It no longer is an affordable town to live in, as the mortgage to live here is almost as much as it is to rent. Okay? See, you can still live there. You just. Yeah. Yeah. It also has no attractions to come to as everyone just goes to Bozeman for that. Okay. Yeah, okay. People. Are the rent. Is rent supposed to be more than a mortgage? Usually, yeah. That's the advantage of buying a house is when you buy a house, it's cheaper than rent, usually. Okay. But if it's. Yeah, that's normally how it goes. People in this town, 10,555. By reading. Yeah. By reading the reviews, some people make it sound like there's 2,000 people here. Some people make it sound like there's 100,000 people here. So it's really eye of the beholder here. Very interesting. 10,555. Women. 52.4%. That is way heavy on the women's side. So it's not a good place for the fellas to go hang out. Median age, 33 and a half. So much younger than the national average. A lot of young family types here. 54% married people, which is above the national average. 20% are single with children, also above the national average. Race in this town, 91.6% white. So pretty white. 0.0% black. Yeah. 0.0% Asian. 7.2% Hispanic. So. White people and Mexicans, huh? That's all that's there. That's it. Whatever. Some sort of Latino. Some something. Yeah. In Montana, I assume. I don't assume a lot of, like, Dominicans are going to Montana, probably. That's a. It's probably white people and farriers. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. 33% of the people here are religious. When it goes out west like that, people don't have time for that stuff. They're like, I'm. They're busy. I'm looking at. Mother Nature done this. That's what they. So, this here, it's a lot of. It's all mixed up here. It looks like Other Christian is the highest one, so there's no. I'm surprised the Mormons haven't really gotten in here yet. It's just south of there. They're almost there. Idaho's right next door. You figure they're going to be there. Watch out. They're coming. You're going to hear footsteps pretty soon. Or I should say, bike wheels is better, more accurate. Probably some bicycles. Bike wheels with some flying cards in the spokes. Yeah, a couple of those. 0.3% Jewish, so that's not enough for the song, but more than I expected, actually, in southern Montana. Unemployment here is low. Median household income here, slightly higher than the national average, but not too much. 72,921 a year, so it's like 69,000 in the rest of the country. They're doing pretty well. The cost of living, though, is out of control here. Yeah. That's the problem. I wonder if this is where David Letterman goes to, and that's why it's doing that. I have no idea. Montana has had a fairly large explosion population, but since famous people have been saying that they live there. Yeah, yeah. There's people with big ranches, but I think those are out in the middle of nowhere. Probably, right? Private airstrips and shit, probably. I think Jimmy Fox has one, too. It's the same thing with Wyoming. There's people who have these giant Wyoming properties that are insanely expensive in the middle of nowhere. So, cost of living here, 100 is average. Here, it's 126, which is very high. The housing is the thing that's out of control. Median home cost here, $520,600. But you get land, right? No. There are no. No? No. That's the thing. You don't get land. These aren't huge, sprawling ranches. These are. I'll tell you what they are. Half a million dollars and it's a fucking track home? Yeah, because we have for you the Belgrade, Montana real estate. The average two-bedroom rental here, it says, goes for $1,440, which is much less than the housing. That's sort of in the realm of the rest of the country. Here is a one-bedroom, one-bath, so technically T-Ball for all your b-holes here, but not really much to speak of. Less than plural. Yeah. 822 square feet. Tiny. The lot size is 7,000 square feet, so not a big lot at all. It's a small lot. It is farty as can be on the inside. There's like old wallpaper up and it looks like. The inside looks like a cabin that you'd walk into and go, oh, no one's been here in 30 years. And that's not a trailer. No. This is $364,900 for that. 800 square feet? No land, size of a one-bedroom apartment. Wow. Yeah, and that's with a $34,000. That's with a $34,000 price cut that just happened like two days ago. They better keep cutting. They better keep going to the bone. Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, 2,239 square foot house. And it is a decent-sized house. It is in a neighborhood. You're right on top of the house next to you. Same-sized lot. Little. It's suburbia. Track house. Almost track housing. Built in 2023. $609,000 for that. But it's brand new. Out of your goddamn mind. $609,000 for a. No. Then finally, here is where Letterman might move or somebody else. Four-bedroom, four-bath, T-Bowl for each and every B-Hole. You bet. 4,138 square feet. There's multiple dwellings on this property. 180.8 acres. Huge. Oh, man. Big chunk of Montana leading up to a big mountain thing. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Yeah. $7,200,000. You're going to pay for it, everybody. You better be on network TV. You better have. Yeah. You better have definitely switched a network and forced a deal and, you know, got NBC to try to fire Jay Leno. It helps a Sandra Bullock summer movie. Yeah. Something like that. So, things to do here. Belgrade summer nights. What does that mean? Well, we'll find out right now. The motto here is. The Great in Belgrate. Oh, yeah. Not great. Different great, but okay. Okay. Belgrade is not Belgrate, but. Yeah. Summer nights is a fun and family-friendly community event that creates joyful evenings where families can gather and friends can connect in the heart of downtown Belgrade with five fantastic nights filled with live music, delicious food, trucks, vendors, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Five nights. Five nights of this horse shit. Okay. It's a fucking week. Let's find out what bands are coming here, because that's what we need to know about. These are all from 6 o'clock to 8.30 p.m. These bands play. Savvy the Band. Sure. With opener Comeback K. Oh, they got an opener for their set? There's only two. There's a couple with openers. This one doesn't have an opener here. I guess if you got a two-and-a-half-hour set, probably bring somebody, unless you're Bruce Springsteen. You're going to fucking play the whole time. July 8th, we got Emma and the Ledge. Oh, so that's all that's on one day. It's one band with an opener. Yeah, every night there's a different one. Then The Scurry plays with opener Michael Earhart. Got me. I mean, I had a kid, huh? That's it. Different spelling, but yeah, definitely. The Waiting is next. I don't know. Then Neon Rainbow with opener West Dakota Stutter. West Dakota? That was like, now we're making up fucking New Dakotas here. That's what they should have called Montana, right? West Dakota. Yeah, absolutely. That was the original name for Minnesota. It was East Dakota. It didn't work out. They wanted their own name. Very funny. Last year, Savvy the Band played then, too. Oh. Their opener was Sorry Man. Sorry, comma, man. Not sorry, man. You are sorry for something. You're not a sorry man. We played too long. Yeah. The Waiting also played then. Little Jane and the Pistol Whips. Oh, they're not coming back. Played. And then Neon Rainbow again. So there you go. Now, there's a couple Halloween things to do here since it's Halloween time. That's it. That's it. That's the festival. That's all I got. That's all I got for you. You can also go to a mystical crafting workshop. Yeah. A nighttime craft and magic workshop. And magic. Thank you. Yeah. - It's a craft and magic workshop. Crafts you can do. isn't real so well this was gonna be uh a doily but now magically it's a pot uh hot pad to pick up pots fuck it i made it too thick so now hey magic uh ta-da yeah um hosted at hammer and stain belgrade featuring diy witch bell making i didn't know there was a witch bell is that how you get them to come i think you gotta ring the witch dinner bell when they come they come flying in uh a spell jar creation oh and 15 minute tarot card readings you know bullshit all of this stuff just total horseshit uh then there's also the transylvania dracula castle escape challenge oh you do like a corn maze but indoors i guess an immersive gothic themed mystery and puzzle solving adventure nearby that pits participants against a ticking clock in a dark candlelit castle setting it's a castle escape room theme that's all it is yeah that sounds fun for yeah for halloween they throw like some pictures of dracula on the wall make it interesting i'd do that on a first date yeah that's some silly shit that you would uh dumb shit yeah yeah no that's a show that you're a piece that you're you know i mean you're not you don't take yourself so seriously yeah that's that's the biggest load of shit i'm not gonna lie to you on a first date i'm a loser i'll do it i will not i would never lie to someone on a first date and pretend that i would ever do this again or something like that i would never do that i would never do that i would never do that again or think this is fun that's one thing i won't i'm not i've never done that with dates like i'm not going to be like oh i'm such a good i'm not like that and i'm not going to pretend i am not either you yeah i can't wait to hike no no bring all your dogs it'll be fun you know what i mean like i'm not doing that yeah let's take all your chance for a walk yeah i look at is if you like hiking i don't want to go out with you like if yeah that's a great point too it's a thing you have to do and love to do great good for you but i'm not going to pretend i do so you like me i don't like you now so same thing with this i think that i think that every date that anybody goes on is uh is a lie because we're all so fucking busy we don't have time to really do anything what are we why are we acting like we all like to go hiking every date is just a man trying to prove that we'll do things that we obviously don't want to do that's what a date is obviously i don't want to go to an escape room i'm a guy this has no interest for me so i'll go and pretend like i do and that shows you that i'm magnanimous of some kind that's what we're trying to display there uh crime rate in this town uh property crime is exactly average exactly like to the number and then violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime also exactly average very strange yeah just right on the money both of them um about it now let's talk about a murder everybody because this is uh this is some wild stuff here okay let's talk about brad brisbin first of all b-r-i-s-b-i-n brad he's 38 years old um now brad here okay we'll start on november 9th 1990 brad's 38 brad's married brad has a couple of kids you know he's got four kids actually but two younger kids that he were talking about here that he lives with and um at the evening of november 9th 1990 um brad is supposed to be helping his friend do something but instead his car sits unattended at a truck stop for some reason huh nobody around now his friend who he's supposed to be helping um a guy named larry moore starts telling people yeah brad took off man like he comes from the truck stop and he's like yeah man nobody he just took off man he just took off he said he was jumped on a trucker's rig and i off off he's going he no he said he was he said brad said he was fed up and he wanted to start a new life he said he was drinking he said he was sick of his wife he was sick of his life he was sick of teaching gym he's a p.e teacher he's sick of running this restaurant that he runs with his wife he's sick of it all and he said that he he asked me if i could borrow five hundred dollars from me larry said so i said yeah i'm gonna borrow five hundred dollars from me i gave him five hundred dollars because brad's been a good friend and a you know reliable guy he said and then he climbed into a red sports car on the on the interstate 90 that was being driven by a blonde woman wow and she and the car may or may not have had washington license plates huh so he gave up said fuck this i just picture him like christy brinkley and we're going yeah hopping in the convertible and as they pull away he throws like his work shirt out and like goes flaps in the wind and lands on the highway like his fucking his shirt from from uh his polo shirt his whistle from gym class he throws it away as he as he goes and he's done you know take me home tonight playing real loud yeah with some chick fucking 15 years younger than him with a like her hair up and shit with like a bonnet around it you know ready to go like a mazda three or is it like we don't know that's what i mean we can fantasize either way yeah we can fantasize it about being a honda del sol or christy brinkley's ferrari which one that's 2000 even what are we talking about yeah what are we getting at so that's what he said man i was there he just he said i'm sick of it fuck my wife forget my life this goddamn job this business i've had it let's go christy cultivated christy brinkley to come pick me up and boy i am done and they peeled off with a big cloud of montana dust behind him and took off down into the sunset that's that's his sports car it's front wheel drive it's a it's a miata light him up come on now burn him so that's dust on the sides of this car that's what he says that's what he tells everybody brad's gone man it's a fun scene yeah um now the weird part was though that brad had driven 90 miles to give this larry moore who tells the story because moore had supposedly sold his truck so we'll get into the details of what that was but he brad was at this truck stop because he was giving larry a ride that was the whole point um so but according to this larry moore brand brad abandoned his own vehicle read it wrote off with some chick and then moore who then had no ride because he came there with brad drove home in his truck that he was supposed that he allegedly sold which is why the reason why brad was there in the first place so they're like what how did you go with him to see this and then get in your truck that you didn't have because you rode with brad there to go home none of this makes sense so he was like i don't know that was his general i did his general answer was i mean i don't know that's just how it worked out so they're like it's a very montana kind of answer where they're just like well i don't know brad did a favor for a friend and in the middle of the favor gave up on everything and said i'm leaving you're on your own now that same night um now this wasn't because of this but that same night larry moore was inside of his camper he's got this camper thing that he a little camper that he can like goes on top of a pickup truck one of those okay um he's he's inside of that and an officer was driving by and saw him in there and larry moore looked out at the officer and then shut the light off in the camper couldn't be more suspicious of an action someone stared at you just click light goes up turn the light off that's funny that's fucking hilarious i can see you and you can't see me now um so that's that was that night so the next night because brad does not come home on friday night this was a friday night and he left his he left his wife and just said i'm gonna go help my friend and then never came back and wow the friend said yeah he took off with some blonde chick so now brad's wife renee he knows where he went she knows where he went she went he went with brad or she went with larry and bernie knows that brad went with larry because brad told her i'm going to help larry so she says she doesn't quite believe larry's story she's like he didn't take off with some woman and maybe that's wishful thinking you don't want to think that your husband went and took off with some woman and said he hated you well he said he hated you and the life you've built i assume your children as well and and uh he decided that he'd be much happier doing literally anything else so he's gone now and he said everything that you represent is in his rear view well the rear view of a young blonde quite literally his rear view of his paramour's car is how it works now so she says i don't think so she calls the cops and reports him missing because obviously larry didn't call the cops to report this guy took off with some chick and that's not up to him he just said he didn't take off with some chick and that's not up to him he just told the wife that he told everybody he got back to wherever he was and he's like yeah you wouldn't believe it you know brad i just went out there brad he just said fuck everything took off his polo and stripped off his whistle and jumped in the car with some little blonde girl and he's gone i don't know so nothing but a pair of tight back shorts that's it and word gets around because this is a small town especially in 1990 it's blown up quite a bit now but in 1990 this whole area is pretty small you know and that's a wild fucking story it's a wild story it's a wild story that's the problem um she reports a missing to the police and says even more She goes a step further, and she goes, I believe he's dead, she tells the cops. I think he's dead. And they're like, you think he's dead because he didn't come home last night? Why do you believe that? She said, I just have a feeling. I think he's dead. So they're like, all right, lady, I don't know. Like, the cops don't think he's dead, and they don't think that he ran away with some blonde chick either. Like, maybe it's somewhere in between. We're not sure. Both of these people are going real extreme. Yeah, the wife just told the cops her husband went to Bear's Truck Stop, B-A-I-R-S. Bear's Truck Stop, to pick up Larry, and then he didn't come home. So that's that. So the cops go, well, we'll go check out the truck stop, and they find his vehicle empty, you know, locked, just like he would leave it. It's not running? Not running at all. No keys in the ignition. Just an empty, locked vehicle like anybody would leave at the truck stop. So they found his vehicle there. It was right where Larry said it would be, too. Larry said, well, he left his car at the truck stop, and there was that. There's no sign. There's no signs of anything. There's no, it hasn't been broken into. There's not, it hasn't been, like, tossed inside. There's no broken windows. There's no blood on it or anything like that. It's all sucked in blood, yeah. It's not OJ's Bronco or anything, you know what I mean, where you go, oh, there's a spot there. It's just a car sitting in the parking lot like anybody else's, like 20 other cars in the parking lot. So they were like, okay, that makes sense. Just a missing man's truck parked at an interstate truck stop. Maybe he took off with some chick. They're thinking. We have no idea. And they say, people leave. Yeah, there's probably a car sitting at a truck stop right now. Absolutely. They said not only people leave, truck stops are where people catch rides a lot of times. Absolutely. It's a meeting spot. So if he did leave, this would make perfect sense that he brought his car to the truck stop, met a person there, and then got back on the interstate, took off with them. All the way he goes, yeah. So that's what it is. And a lot of people in town go, that sounds reasonable. Sure. And they said, maybe Brad snapped. I mean, he always seemed like a real nice guy and a family man and everything. Do it all the time. People snap all the time. Who knows? Maybe he got hooked up with some chick and she got in his head and he's having an early midlife crisis and this is what happens. We don't know. So we got to find out a little. Desert storm took its toll on people. It really did. I'm telling you. It didn't happen yet, but they knew it was coming, everybody. They could sense it coming. A real stressful time. It was. It was. So let's talk about Brad. Brad a little bit. Maybe we can figure it out. His background. Maybe if this is something that you would imagine he would be capable of doing, just taking off. He is Bradford Clare Brisbane. His middle name is Clare. Yeah. Really? We had an Allison last week. Yeah. A man named Allison. Now we got a man named Clare. I've never heard Clare. C-L-A-R-E. Yeah, I've never heard that. I had never heard Allison either. I mean, I think other people have, but I had never heard it. So Brad, he goes by. Double B. Brad Brisbane. He's born February 13th, 1952. He's from Malta, Montana, like the island. I really like some European names over there. Belgrade, Malta. Couldn't be more opposite. Could not be more opposite. This is in Phillips County is where he's born. His parents are, this is great. Clifford Leroy Brisbane. Know what his nickname is? Cowboy? What is it? Buzz. Everyone calls his dad Buzz Brisbane, which is. Buzz. That's Montana right there. Buzz. You have to be a cowboy or an astronaut. You have no choice if your name is Buzz. He had two very cowboy names and ran with fucking Buzz. Clifford Leroy. Yeah, that's good. Those are strong names. He goes by Buzz. And then his mother is Mary Ann Clare Brisbane. Clare is her maiden name. Oh, so he got the maiden name as the middle name. He got them, which is common back in the day, back in the day. So he has an old name. He has an older sister named Julie Ann. His mother's Mary Ann. That's Julie Ann. So he grows up in Montana. His family's all from Montana for generations. This is a Montana, Western type of family here. That's how it goes. They got wheat in the veins. Oh, absolutely. He went to school and he got a teaching degree. Yeah. And he always loved sports, played sports in high school. That kind of thing. Was always into sports. Little names, man. Yep. So he's going to go to school for physical education stuff. He gets a teaching degree and he wants to be a PE teacher. Teach some kids kickball. There you go. Or dodgeball back in then. Teach. Remember prisoner dodgeball? That was even better. No, what is that? Prisoner dodgeball is a game where you mixed the activities of hitting a small child in the face with a large rubber ball bigger than his fucking head. Also, with the incarceration factor of it, where if you hit somebody, with the dodgeball, then they would have to walk over to your side and stand behind you as you threw shit and they're a prisoner back there. And the only way to spring them is if someone got a ball all the way to them and they caught it, then they could go back. So it was like some sort of weird refugee war game. I don't know what the hell they were trying to teach us. That's how you get back in the game is by catching the ball behind the guy that from your own team. Drilled you in the face. Yeah. Well, they try to keep the balls from obviously getting to you. Right. So that's fun. So 1973, he marries a woman, Rosaline Kovash is her name. Rosaline L E N. Oh, not Rosaline Lynn. Rosaline Rosaline heard a lot of leans. I've never heard of Rosaline. And trust me, when I was looking stuff up, neither has the internet because that was a big red, red squiggly under that bad boy. Everywhere's like, do you mean Rosaline? No, I don't actually. Do you mean Rosaline? No, I don't. I mean, Rosaline, as a matter of fact, her mom could have used you guys years ago. Her mom could have used a spell check on this bad boy. Cause this is a bullshit name. You're right. Yeah. Kovash. Maybe they're like from Eastern Europe or something. I don't know. So it's possible. That's who he marries from 1974 to 1978. Brad is going to teach physical education at Belgrade high school. That's what he's doing. Mr. Gym teacher. That's the guy. Yeah. He has two children with Rosaline, Jeremiah and Aaron. So that's kind of during the seventies, early eighties. He's spitting kids out. Um, 1978, he said, I don't want to be a gym teacher anymore. Changing careers. Tired of smelling 12 year olds balls. I don't want to do it in this fucking locker room. You people, you kids are disgusting. They want no part of you anymore. Tired of saying, can somebody please tell him to use the, please just somebody that's how, you know, he's not a pedophile. Yeah. He, he, he left. He left a position voluntarily. We're at access to half naked young boys. And he was like, Nope, no interest. I want to do something else. Fuck this. This is not what I thought it was going to be. Nope. No fun. Uh, he wants to be a cop as a matter of fact. Oh, from gym teacher to cop, he becomes a deputy with the Gallatin County Sheriff's department or office. So that's his job now from 1978. Wow. Um, now in the early eighties, Brad and Rosaline got a divorce. He put in the paper. Under reason for divorce, still can't get over how stupid my wife's name is, which not a usual reason for it, but, uh, you know, still can't spell it still, still misspelling the name on all the cards. She gets mad. It's a fight. I decided to give up. So they get a divorce in the early eighties. So they have two kids. They split those up. You know, he sees the kids on weekends or whatever, pays child support, yada, yada. Now 1984, he is involved in a massive, massive manhunt. And this is a crazy fucking story of what happened six years into his career. Yeah. He's chasing criminals. He's a canine officer is what he does. Oh, Brad becomes a canine officer, which is pretty cool. Um, you know, as far as fun job, if you're going to be a cop, you know, might as well be able to pet a dog all day. That seems fun. Yeah. I mean, the only bummer about it is that, uh, those don't have the same instincts as people to like get away from man with gun. No, they don't. You may lose your buddy real early. No, that's true. That's true. But also you should stop having him bite people. So we'll, yeah, but they, so they, they own them, right? That's their like go home pal. They're their partner. They're yeah. They don't like buy them. They provide them, but then they end up taking them home. Yeah. It's well entrained. And then they're introduced to them and we become pals at the, at the station and can't give them back. Boy gets in the truck and we go home. Yeah. He's not a car that you just leave in a lot at the end of your shift. You can't just check him in. There you go. No, that's what I mean. He can't. It's like I'm a person. Peace in your badge. Yeah, absolutely. So it's a, he has a German shepherd named bear. Yeah. B-A-R-A-B-E-A-R bear, like a bear. Um, and he and his dog take place in this massive, massive 1984 search. And I was just going to mention this massive search, but then I looked into this, the case and I'm like, Oh no, we have to talk about this fucking shit for a minute. Cause it's, it's bonkers. Okay. This is a biathlete named Carrie Swenson was kidnapped. Oh no. Biathlete. You're talking about running and bicycling. No, she just likes guys and chicks. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. Running and volleyball player. That also just goes both ways. And she's also plays volleyball. No, she's a biathlete. And, um, so she was kidnapped by two and this is what they call them the whole time. Mountain men. Just these-- - Oh. - These literally two-- dudes that live in the fucking mountains decide we should get ourselves a woman, and we're going to go get one. And they snatched one that's fast? They just snatched one up, yeah. Wow. Don and Dan Nichols, this was, a father and son team of creepy mountain men. We'll go get a girl, and whoever gets her pregnant first wins. Like, these fucking creeps. They caught an athlete, though. That's amazing. That's, I mean, if they had a car, it would have been probably easier. I suppose, yeah. Yeah. There are things faster than a person running. Especially a bi-athlete. She's not a world-class sprinter. She does multiple things, so yeah. She doesn't drag race on foot. Yeah. No, she just can ride a bike or do whatever. What do bi-athletes do? I don't even know what that is. That's what I'm wondering. I wonder if it's running and cycling. Is that when you, like, ski and then shoot things after you're done cross-country skiing? That's a bi-athlete, too, right? I have no idea. I have no clue what that's going to be. So, she was a swimmer in a rowboat? That's a. That's, I don't know, maybe. Two athletes. That's two. You got one and two. That's anything, really. So, in July of 84, she was training near Big Sky. It was July 15th, 84. She's abducted by a father and son who live off the land in the mountains because the father had decided that, it's time for you to get a wife, boy. Rather than saying, go into town and try to meet some women, you know, like they did with Blast from the Past. Like, go up there and meet a girl and hope she's from Pasadena. Instead, instead of Brendan Frazier-ing this fucking person, they just said, we'll just steal her and then she'll be your wife now up in the mountains. Fascinating choice. She's going to be a forest bride, is what they said. And that's. They're just going to keep her. They're going to keep her. So, this is wild shit here. They chained her to a tree. Imagine being this poor fucking woman. And then the next day, when searchers ended up finding her, a murder ends up occurring that we'll talk about here. Now, when all this goes down, the Nichols' just disappear into the backcountry and they can't find them because they're fucking mountain men and they live up here. This is their area. You're not going to find them. This is their Montana holler. Exactly. You're not going to know it better than them. Yeah. This is the Montana version of the West Baltimore projects where they would run in and lose the cops because they know the place better than they do. They do. So, it's pretty crazy. So, I found some articles here that are absolutely bonkers. Here's one. The Mountain Man case, it's called. And so, Swenson was 23. She was a leading member of the U.S. International Biathlon Team. So, she was like Olympic level. She was at a mountain training run. This was like an area where people train near the Big Sky Ski Resort. So, this wasn't the middle of nowhere. This is like where tourists go. Yeah. And she worked as a waitress at the guest ranch there. So, she was not like she just popped up there that one day. She works there. And then her kidnappers, who were a 53-year-old and his 19-year-old son. So, they just took her and chained her to a tree. Coworkers the next day at the Lone Mountain Ranch and friends, concerned that she didn't return from her training run, started looking for her in the woods. Maybe she fell down, you know, broke her leg or something out there. A guy named Alan Goldstein, who was 36, and a guy named Jim Schwalbe, who was 30, who were two of the searchers. They're the people that eventually find the camp and find her. And the one guy, Goldstein, is going to get shot and killed for his efforts. By them? By Don and Dan? Yeah. They shoot the guy and then the other guy runs for help. And at that point, that's when the father-son team abandon Swenson and take off into the woods for fucking five months. It is so baffling how many people do some dastardly gross shit and have zero plan of and then what? And the and then what was, I guess we'll kill a man. And then the other guy runs off and what do you do? You run back up and kill. He's going to go bring way too many people that we can't kill. Well, think about their plan. Here's a pretty young girl. We'll just take her. No one will notice. Nobody will notice. Right there, your plan is unless your thing is we're going to take her and then we're going to go to a remote place in Alaska with her where no one can find us. Just going up into the hills. They're not going to go. Well, she could be in the hills. We can't look up there like they're not going to do. They're going to find you like that's crazy. Might be in the woods. You guys, it's dark and scary out there. Well, guys, I don't know. There's there's bears up there guys. He's a wolves. Okay. You hear that? We'll hear that. I'll bet you there's a moose or two. Oh, I ain't going in there. So then the guy who ran away, leads rescuers back to the campsite where they find Swenson alive huddled up in a sleeping bag. And then they decide to go after the Nichols father son and they had disappeared into the Spanish Peaks wilderness here, which is where they live and know. And so for days they search with helicopters and SWAT teams and dogs, including Brad and bear are out there searching through the mountains looking for them. Five days later, the sheriff calls off the search basically the large man hunt and just says just a few deputies are going to look from now on they file charges of kidnapping and murder, obviously against these fucking idiots. And then finally a guy named Tom Heinz. He goes where the Nichols were guiding hunters in the Spanish Peaks because they went back to just being hunting guides. Basically unbelievable. That's it. The Nichols tell this guy that sweat that Swenson the girl was shot by accident and she survived. She's fine. And I don't know about fine, but she's alive. And the other guy was killed in self-defense. They said they're telling their customers. Yeah, they're telling their customers that he said they said that they were relieved that the girl didn't die. The young lady as they thought she did. And so this guy waits four days till after his hunting trip and then turns goes to the authorities and tells on him, but it's not that important. If we can get one of those big horn Ram first, we got it is Ram season. I got tags like, yeah, we came all the way here. The guns are loaded. It's the only one I'm missing on the wall. I really need that. Yeah. Then on December 13th, a rancher who was breaking ice in a stock tank in his ranch spots a campfire and alerts the sheriff. The sheriff enters the area on a slow snowmobile follows tracks in the snow on foot and surprised as the nickels as they're cooking their dinner over a campfire and place. He just popped out of the dark and said, you two just stay right there. God damn it. You beans down while white flickers and they're like, oh shit with a can with a fucking spoon up to their mouth. You know that scene spoon is something brown. Yeah, no shit. I picture it's David Arquette from scream doing it. You can just stay right there, guys. Just stay. Okay. Don't move. Don't move. So Nichols is convicted of kidnapping and misdemeanor assault, but found innocent of murder somehow what the son is found innocent, even though he's right there. And in this whole plot, the father's convicted of murder, kidnapping and aggravated assault. So and Montana, you got to pull the trigger. You got Dan gets sentenced to 20 years in prison. The father gets sentenced to 85 years in prison. Oh shit. So Dan was probably out by the time he was before he was 30 because he was 19 at the time. Yeah, he goes back up into the mountains. But this search, though, that he participated in that Brad participated in is a crazy one. They think that they might already be in Canada. They were like going all trying to go all the way up to the border. They never know. It's crazy. They said 11 men in helicopters were up there. It's 11 helicopters. They had for the shit. It's crazy. They had everybody with their dogs. So this is what the the I believe this is the dad here. What he ends up saying when he admits to everything that happened. You just have to hear this. This is crazy. Okay. We told Carrie we were going to take her with us for a few days in order to have a good chance at conversation and for her to make a decision. We're going to kidnap you. Yeah. And that way for a few days. Well, basically, it's a blind date. Really more than a kidnapping. It's a blind date. Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and kidnap you and you're going to go on this blind date against your will in the in the woods with me there with my son. Okay. I want you to know we like hiking. That's you like hiking. We like it even more. You think you like hiking you can handle. Hey, y'all like escape rooms, right? Picture the whole woods as a big escape room. Then your first mission is how do you get the chains off you? Our first day is going to be three days. It's long. There's going to be hiking and escape for it. That's what's going on. Yeah, you like escape rooms. So he says that. Yeah, we're going to have a conversation then if she decided she didn't want to marry his son in the woods. Yeah, then they would of course have let her go. Obviously, they weren't going to keep her. He says he assured her that she would not be hurt and she and would be shown a route to civilization if she decided not to remain with them in the mountains. They give her some directions on where to go. All right. He says, after a while, she knew we were telling the truth. the truth because that's what i would think if two mountain men kidnapped me i'm sure they'll let me go if i don't want to be here this is after a while after a while um he then said i don't know how we'd have gotten carrie to cooperate if she hadn't or had how we would have gotten her to come with us if she hadn't decided to cooperate the main thing is that we didn't want to shake any girl up real bad you can you told her you were going to make a forest bride out of her that's crazy she's you freaked her out i think um wow um we uh we wanted a long conversation with the right girl out of sight and hearing from any possible observer what i mean yes that's how i met sarah but still it's that's not normal way to meet your wife you know yeah that's how you met your that's how you met your first wife right you guys were so i meet every girl that i've ever dated you got to kidnap them and have a long conversation with them in the woods out of against her well out of sight of any possible observer as he put it i mean i mean i what is going on yeah so he said we knew our intentions we didn't want a big scary production about it it's kidnapping it's always a scary production that's the scariest production on the planet yeah he said so he claims that swenson lied about him threatening to strike her but then admits quote what i said was that we could all make things pleasant during the next couple days around camp if we'd all work together but that if she gave us too much trouble during that time i'd black both her eyes i'm so glad he got so long in prison so but he didn't want to be scary though he just wanted to have a conversation yeah when you first meet a girl you should always threaten to black both her eyes that lets her know you care what the fuck are you doing i'll make a raccoon out of you that's crazy but i'd never socked a girl in my life and i didn't intend to start with her neither of us ever hit carrie um but then in the next breath he says that he recalls striking her when she screamed but it wasn't like a he didn't beat her and he didn't black both her eyes he said quote i barely tapped her on the lips i slapped her three times just with my fingertips and said shut up three times in the mouth she shut up she shut up that's yeah you slapped her in the fucking mouth three times three times in a row i picture a paint brushing shut up shut up shut up yeah well after you've kidnapped her in the woods to marry your boy like of course she's terrified um holy shit and then the guy he killed he blames goldstein the victim and he's like oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry because he ran up on him that's my that's his fault you don't do that in the mountains he said the shooting began because goldstein quote had come upon our camp and was coming on in like we were having a public fish fry the fuck is that what is that metaphor that's what i always say when something's a crowd but it's like a public fish fry in here traffic over here everyone going to the fish fry what's happening okay he's coming in like it's a public fish fry what the fuck does that mean like he's trying to find a kidnapped woman or something you know what i mean so he came in politely is that what you're saying so you shot the man he said i looked around and goldstein had a pistol pointed at the group of us braced against the tree he was behind i walked back got my rifle the same as i'd done many times in the mountains when trouble threatened oh he's like that's what you do and someone points a gun at you you do that so after the guy the schwalbe guy the guy who got away implored him and goldstein not to use guns like hey let's not we don't need to shoot each other nichols said he told goldstein to put down his pistol goldstein replied you're covered i guess meaning you there's nowhere to go there's tons of people everywhere nichols then took aim he said i pulled my rifle over to where i thought it was pointed at the upper part of the middle of his chest you know you know the heart the game over jesus christ i aimed center mass you know how that goes right up but but but real high up like toward the heart is what i'm going for i don't want right between betwixt the lungs yeah i don't want to just gut shot him he'll lay there dying for two days that don't do anything to me i don't do no good so he said at that point um he pointed at the middle of his chest and pulled the trigger and knew that one of us would be dead in the next second or two he said i shot to kill goldstein not to have done son not to have done so would have been like trying to merely wound a grizzly wow so you come at the king you best not miss is what he just said um he said when i shot him i thought i was acting in defense of everyone uh i could see yeah i didn't know he was there to rescue a kidnapped girl i just assumed he was robbing us in the woods as a mugging i figured rob us of our carry in the woods yeah i didn't know maybe he was looking for a wife i said we already found this one get your own we've already said dearly beloved get lost get lost now god damn it everything's all set up hey there's a flower girl coming through any minute now you get on out of the aisle come on is you gonna drop petals let's go this ain't a fish fry this ain't no public fish fry understand evidently evidently you have to go up in a public fish fry with a gun drawn that's how he's that's how he's describing it apparently that's welcome in a public fish fry you just walk on in there at the gun draw and everyone goes oh well it's a fish fry obviously i didn't know i didn't know he said i could see no alternative my mind went out to no man's land and the moment decided itself okay he also recalls hiding from helicopters a few times but maintains that quote we did not even remotely feel like fugitives desperately hiding from the law so we weren't hiding he said quote we knew we had broken the law in some manner of course oh my god understatement of the year you kidnapped an olympian and then intentionally murdered a man in the fucking woods who was trying to rescue her and he said we knew we had broken some laws in some manner of course there was a lot of two we figured we bent i mean i knew i shot a deer without having the proper tank and i knew i shot a deer without having the proper tank and i knew i shot a deer without having a bag for it but you know i was but technically it's poaching yeah i didn't have the uh human being stamp this year hold on let me check nope damn it i missed my human being they got them for people you get them a walmart right a wife stamp you get the wife stamp and you can come do it wife stamp and the and the murder grown men stamp it's the forest bride stamp i believe is what they give you over at the old walmart there in the back um so he says but that's doesn't mean that he and his son did anything wrong in their eyes the law it's the law and what we think are different he said he lived his life according to quote the law of the mountains jesus fucking christ the law this isn't the murder story that's how crazy the story is the law of the mountains he said and this this is the man that they've tasked xpe teacher brad and bear to go find him yeah nice um he said he rejected what he's perceives as precise society's stifling rules uh um he said danny and i knew that with the tyranny and fascism sweeping the land if we had an address anywhere there'd be no getting away from it all we'd have to pay taxes and that's what he's talking about we'd have to like live like normal people uh yeah those who have addresses who let their whereabouts be known will eventually be either intimidated or destroyed destroyed by the state in one way or another yeah i'm doing okay are you doing okay i'm fine right now i mean i don't know unless a mountain man comes and kids that kidnaps my wife i should be fine uh nickel's most hated symbol of society is the governor who prosecuted the case as the assistant attorney general right uh he called him a quote totally corrupt piece of garbage garbage um he said if the people of montana elect him there's no hope for them as human beings i hope he ends his days sleeping in the gutter where he belongs god damn man this guy's dangerous well we knew that but yeah he's fucking dangerous so um that's crazy so anyway that's what brad is doing in july of 1984 and he couldn't find him no no gold stick which is probably lucky because he would have got shot so or bear one of the two one of the two um so yeah that's what's going on and then on i'll august 19th 1984 so when all this shit had been the mountain men were still missing right so he's still searching for mountain men apparently because he's one of the deputies that the when they called off the national people he's still one of the deputies um apparently he gets married in the middle of all this no he's like i gotta take tomorrow off looking for the kidnapping murder and mountain men because i got a marriage i gotta hit up um maybe he just got married in the woods you're supposed to she's also a forest bride he took us he found her out there yeah she was like uh that fucking uh jody foster movie she's just like found her in a tree like chanting at a at a group of berries uh maureen brisbane here maureen um no one calls her maureen though everyone calls her renee oh yeah because he doesn't like ladies with the last part of their name ene anymore no no not at all do that yeah we already got rose rosaline uh renee is what everyone calls her and brad and renee have two more children parker and mariah and uh yeah mariah jeremy jeremiah and aaron was mariah i don't remember yeah aaron is one of them i remember um so they have these kids so she's got kind of two kids with one two kids with another yeah eventually he leaves the force um yeah leaves the police force i think he was just there to get a free dog once the dog retires well we'll both retire i think right yeah me and bear gonna go walk off into the city sunset together i think they only get those dogs like six eight years on the force and yeah yeah you can't have a 15 year old german shepherd dragging his ass end around the fucking teeth missing and shit that's not gonna work so he leaves try biting me you gummy fuck you son of sons of bitches so he and renee moved to west yellowstone which is a town where they owned and ran the silver spur cafe yeah which is a restaurant this is what they're gonna own silver spur is a very popular name for cafes god damn every western town has a silver spur restaurant every single one we've eaten there at the in uh in sedona there's this there's one in flagstaff there's one none of them are related to each other no there's one in prescott now the the one in in sedona it's just the room inside one of the other restaurants is called the silver spur room oh and you go in there and it's got this cowboy guy who's like too young to be doing this cowboy shtick that he does like as a as a waiter 22 and he's like hey how y'all doing tonight now the appetizers are gonna be uh it's a delicious rattlesnake see uh like you rattlesnake tails and it's just asparagus and he's making he makes these like faces like he's like like real like squints his eyes like yeah for 45 year old women to slide hotel keys across the table to him like this guy it's very funny we're indoors man open your eyes that's the silver saddle never mind that's not the silver spur room there's a silver spur in prescott i've eaten there there's a silver spur in flagstaff for shoresies i've eaten there jimmy's closed by now how many silver spurs let's get jimmy a punch card for all the silver spurs in the country so as we they're all over arizona i know that uh so brad also goes back to teaching part-time at high school yeah to make ends meet here because when you open a restaurant hey not a real lucrative thing right off the bat as a matter of fact sucks money from you for yeah at least a year or two and probably for the bulk of the time that you own it it's probably not near as lucrative as people think no it takes a while to turn a profit because you have to really invest a lot going into it so he also coaches the boys basketball team as well yeah that's something to do 1989 buzz dies oh god damn we didn't think it was possible but somehow oh his dad yeah the earth took buzz yeah yeah not buzz so fall of 1990 um brad applies for the undersheriff job in gallatin county what exactly is an undersheriff i don't know not quite a deputy but above a deputy below the sheriff i'm thinking oh or is it below a deputy it sounds like above the dispatch girl sounds like a middle management to me undersheriff yeah it might it might i'm not sure though it doesn't matter either way he's did position yeah yeah he applies for this job so he's trying to get also back into law enforcement because if he's going to have a part-time job we all know he doesn't feel like teaching those kids are paying right in his ass so nightmare he doesn't want to do that now he also has a buddy here the guy he was helping when he disappeared larry moore they met at an alcoholics anonymous meeting that's how they met they're both aa guys larry more big problem huh yes now brad this didn't really come up in his personal life as far as this goes but he obviously at some point had some kind of drinking problem and we don't know if that's why he switches careers he might have quit the force because he said that makes me drink too much or he left that high school because or he left the high school exactly yeah we're not shigs who knows you know what i mean so either way uh i'm not really going to speculate on it but at some point i guess he decided he had a problem and he went to aa yeah and then his this larry moore was also in aa and they became friends through that and they also would be you know they'd do they'd hunt together and they became social friends outside of aa um now larry moore is larry thurman moore he's born in 1946 so a few years older than brad um he went to high school in placerville california wow there you know out in the out in the trash lands there um he was described as popular in high school and uh very outgoing friendly guy everybody likes larry yeah um he became a businessman somewhere in here somehow he moved from california to western montana and became a businessman we're not quite sure how that there's a lot of business up there there has to be well he owned a refuse disposal company and an excavation company oh he's doing that shit that's hard work man yeah but that's where money is yeah people always think when they want to open a business they're like i'll open a cupcake shop or open up like this something that's so interesting no fuck that find a place to shovel dirt from and put it somewhere else huge money smooth shit smooth some payment cash fucking refuse disposal all these unsexy things that's where the money is i would assume we're too dumb to start businesses like that because i wouldn't know what to buy or where to go but oh and now i'm in too much fucking pain i'm oh yeah i'm not well we're not starting the business doesn't mean going out and doing it yourself i don't think either right i think starting it you have to right you can't just hire people out of the gate it depends on what kind of business you're starting how much of a loan you're getting yeah i don't need an investor are you undercapitalized jimmy is that the problem here we're gonna be out there jimmy and james excavation isn't gonna work very well because it's two complaining 40 something year old dudes with sore backs in the backyard gone this fucking sucks man with shovels going when can we afford a backup this sucks dude jesus christ fucking taking smoke breaks every 20 minutes how many of these holes you think we gotta dig before we can get some machines do you want to get lunch we just had lunch let's get more lunch i want lunch how do you think those machines work do you think they run on diesel or gas i can't wait to find out i say we try try regular first because it's cheap and if that does if it fucks it up then we'll get more then we'll get diesel from there right let's start with regular unleaded let's start with some 87 and then we'll go from there what do you say how is that about huh so he uh he owns this company it's called um i remember oh i can't remember what it's called here okay the refuse company yeah i have it somewhere but i don't know um all right so he had also a construction shop he had employees trucks backhoes he had all sorts of shit he had a big it wasn't day one he was in no he was doing this this is his business um wow i guess that he's well known in the community there yeah you know he's known as a guy who pays his taxes and does his things and you know not as a stand-up guy yeah not a not a you know not on the fringes or anything like that yeah he was a father of four um he was married to a woman named michelle moore who goes by shelly and um she says he's smart articulate persuasive he's a excellent catch this larry moore um especially when he's sober apparently now yeah his wife shelly coached the girls basketball team at the high school in west yellowstone while brad coached the boys so brad and larry know each other from aa he knows larry's wife from basketball everybody knows each other this is some small town shit here obviously um now west yellowstone had about seven hundred people 750 people in 1990 so very small town and basically if a man and a woman ever talk to each other everybody thinks they're fucking there's just awful rumors they're married immediately yeah so that and that's what it is these they both coach basketball teams and they know each other and their families know each other and the men husbands hunt together and they go to the same aa meetings and all that thing i bet something's going on so there was like mountain stuff there no between brad and shelly because they yeah yeah i mean maybe brad and larry too who knows maybe brad just nails that whole family with some and sometimes in the woods in the woods in the locker room all sorts of weird porn settings so um brad and larry are doing all this now um both marriages are not in the best of shape at this point um one person said people who knew them even casually knew they were having trouble in their marriages and in their friendship everyone to reach out to them to help them. There were two alcoholics that weren't very good at keeping social things together? No, their marriages were kind of faltering and people said a lot of it was because everybody was saying that there was rumors going on and then Larry would hear the rumors and be like, are you fucking Brad? And Brad, and she's like, I'm not fucking Brad. And Brad's like, I'm not fucking your wife. And he's like, I think they're fucking. And then Larry will go tell Renee, I think your husband's fucking my wife. And she's like, I don't think so. And so the rumors made their friendship fall apart because mistrust. Yeah. Jealousy. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So there's a lot going on. Small town living is hard. It's rough, man. Yeah. They move out there for the easy life. So they can know everybody's business and really grind it in. So summer of 1990, Larry Moore buys a camper from a man named Dave Barstead. Yeah. It was a slide in, unit that sits in the bed of a pickup truck and pops up and you know how that goes. Those are. So basically the, the space you have is essentially the back of your pickup truck. That's pretty much and a little bit over the bed rails and over the cab. That's it. Yeah. But that's not a floor because that's lifted up. So that's small. Yeah. It's a small little thing. Now, Dave Barstead remembers that the floor was covered in brown carpet when he sold it. That'll come up later. Okay. So one of Larry's employees installed the camper into the truck and he said he also remembered a brown carpet in there when he installed it. So the camper had a door at the back, a step that folded down, curtains on the little windows, even had wood paneling on the interior walls. Dang. Yeah. They made it, tried to make it look like a basement. Pretty nice one. Yeah. Not bad. It was small though. It's tiny. It's like four by nine My grandfather had these in his truck. I had to sleep in it at Christmas in Colorado. As a kid, it's pretty big. Oh, well, if it's private, it's awesome as a kid. You'd sleep in a hole in a tree if nobody would bother you when you were a kid if you could fucking whack off in there and not be- As a child, it's a huge clubhouse. As a grown adult, I don't know how people sleep in those. I don't either. It seems not like a great idea. That's not a fun activity. Hey, let's go out in the woods and then we'll sleep in the back of our pickup truck. On some old brown carpeting. I don't want to do that. There's like a dinette table and there's a stove and then there's a little pisser in there too. What is the room for that? How is the- That's what I mean. It's small. Wow. So, by the fall of 1990, he's got his camper and Larry is now convinced that Brad is banging his wife. Really? Brad and Shelly are up to something. I know it. Yeah. He has no evidence of this. He hasn't seen anything. He hasn't even really heard anything other than, oh, those two know each other. Nothing. He confronted everybody. He confronts Shelly. She denies it. He confronts Renee even. She denies it. Brad doesn't know what you're- He's like, what are you talking about? Like, he just thinks it's crazy. And it's basically just because they were both at the school sort of at the same time, you know, doing their teams. Basking each other. Yeah. That's it. So, that's all. That's all it is. Literally. So, as all this went, went up bad here, they said that one of the people that knew them said that everything was screwed up. Not just their marriages. Now their friendships were messed up and everything was just strained because of this. So badly so that by October 1990, Larry is hospitalized for what's called, which this doesn't really exist, but there was a catch-all phrase, a nervous breakdown. Larry lost his shit, essentially. That's, we'll call it that. That's as scientifically. He lost a grip on reality. Yeah. Didn't know who to trust anymore. It was just a mess. That's as scientifically accurate as nervous breakdown. Lost his shit. He just went fucking, blah, blah, blah. There we go. What year was that that they called it that? 1990. Yeah. That's nervous breakdown times. Everybody's like, mom had a friend who had a nervous breakdown and had to go in some sort of facility for a while. I'm going to have a nervous breakdown. A nervous breakdown. A nervous breakdown, yeah. I was threatened with hundreds of nervous breakdowns as a child by frustrated adults that I was apparently giving them one. So that happened all the time. So October 1990 here, yeah, he had been hospitalized with a nervous breakdown over his belief that his wife and Brad were having an affair. That's what this is all based on. And how am I going to live up to the cock that Brad throws? How could I ever? He's swinging it. He's like a hammer. He swings it. You got to be careful. He gets along with dogs. I mean, we don't know how he's throwing it, but the dogs don't seem to mind being around him, so that's nice. And those things throw it all the time. They're usually threatened by that. So around the same time, Shelly decides it's a good idea to get a restraining order against her husband. Oh, against Larry. She's done with Larry because he's going kind of nuts. She said the reason is the thing that pushed her over the edge is that he tried to strangle her. So she said, okay. During the nervous breakdown? Yeah. Before he went into the hospital and she was like, I don't trust him now when he snaps and he's telling me I'm having an affair and I'm not and he doesn't believe me so fuck that. He's violent about things that aren't happening. That aren't even true. Yeah. So she said this whole period of October into November is just a steady slide for Larry. More paranoid, more violent. She said just more weird in general. Scary it got to be. So much so that in mid-October Larry Moore stopped a sergeant, a police sergeant who knew Brad as well. Everybody knows each other and they're both cops. And he asked this police sergeant whether you're a friend of Brad's. You know Brad? You know Brad? Yeah. And he said, yeah, of course I know Brad. And he said, yeah, you know him? He said, yeah. He goes, let me ask you something. You think he's screwing around with my wife? Yeah. I don't know. Those are his exact words. He's like, the fuck should I know? I don't know what he does with his dick all the time, but I know him to say hi to him. I've had coffee with him once. So he then went on to say, Larry said, I'm obsessed with that woman. I don't know what I would do if they got together. Oh. So the cop was like, again, don't know. Awesome. Yeah. Great story. I don't know, man. So November 7th, 1990, Larry and she and I Larry and Shelly kind of officially separate here. Okay. She said it was his paranoia and his violence. She said there was no affair, everything like that. And she said, I truly believe he thought we were having an affair. Like she said, like he really thought it. There was not, he wasn't just throwing it out there. He, in his mind, it was driving him crazy because it was happening and no one would tell him, essentially. Huh. So November 9th, 1990, Brad leaves his home. This is where we started. Um, in West Yellowstone. Um, he gets a phone call or he's at his home. I'm sorry. He gets a phone call and it's Larry Moore. Now they've been not getting along so well. So this could be a contentious deal. And, uh, basically what he tells him is that he sold his pickup truck and his camper is what Larry says. He needs a ride back to West Yellowstone. So could Brad please meet him at Bear's Truck Stop in Belgrade? Yeah. And you pick me up and then I'll go back. I sold the camper and the truck. Nothing I can do. Um, then he says something really weird. He asked Brad not to tell anyone where he's going or that he's meeting with him. I don't want everybody to know that I'm flushed with cash now. Don't want everybody to know my business. So he said, don't tell anyone you're giving me a ride home. Okay? Which, that's all he's doing is giving him a ride home. I sold the Wildwood. Don't tell them you're helping. No, he just said, just don't tell anybody you're meeting me. Yeah. That's it. So yeah, the camper, the camper's not the point. He just said, don't come get him. He doesn't want anybody to know that he's going. So Brad immediately turns to his wife and says, he doesn't want me to tell you this, but I'm going to meet, this is when he's off the phone, he goes, I'm going to meet Larry and help him and for some reason he doesn't want me to tell anybody about it so I'm definitely going to tell you about it so I'll be at, I'll be at Bear's truck stop if you need me, basically. So that day he goes to the high school where he teaches part time and he tells the principal that he needs the rest of the day off so I need the rest of the day off so if you get a sub to cover me. I'm going to help my friend, I'll be at Bear's. What he says is, and this is an exact quote, he needs the day off to quote, deal with a screwed up friend. Oh. He says, I got this crazy friend and he's a screwed up friend and I got to, I got to go help him and deal with him, basically try to chill this guy out, essentially. And later on, a colleague passes him in the hallway and describes Jack, Brad having his jacket on, being on the way out and saying, he was going to help a friend and he'd see everybody for dinner tonight because there was some event or something. A substitute covers his classes. November 9th, that same day, two witnesses say they saw Brad driving north up Gallatin Canyon that morning, I guess heading toward that area. Both said there was nothing unusual about his driving. He wasn't weaving. He wasn't like hanging out the window with a bottle of tequila doing fucking shots of it or anything. Just seemed like a normal guy driving straight down the highway. Highway 191 headed toward Belgrade, headed toward the truck stop. So when they're at the truck stop, and it's a big, giant truck stop with all the trucker shit. Yeah, it would later become a Flying J. So it's that big. It's one of those. Larry Moore is there with his pickup, and he's got his slide-in camper. Now, shortly before 1 p.m. now, okay, that was late morning. Shortly before 1 p.m., Larry Moore is driving the pickup in the camper, which, by the way, he was telling everyone he was selling that day. He sold it, yeah. He calls his construction shop, okay, and one of his employees, a guy named Jerry Hiller, picks up the phone, and he says, Listen, I need you to do me a favor, Jerry. Go out and warm up the backhoe. That's what he says. Get it cooking and ready for me, because when I get there, I'm going to need it right away, okay? Now, according to this, from 1 o'clock to 5 o'clock, a little after 1, he arrives at the shop. About 1.30, he leaves the shop with the now warmed-up backhoe. Yeah. At 3 p.m., the employee says he saw the backhoe parked back in the construction yard, so it was back, and at 5 p.m., Larry Moore returns to the shop. So, he came, he brought the backhoe back at 3, but then took off again for two more hours of completely unaccounted-for time, and then he's gone. So, basically, from a little after 1 to 3, we have no idea what happened. Then from 5, we don't know where he is either. But at some point in there, he stopped back at the shop. He stopped back at the shop and dropped the backhoe off. That we know. Now, by the evening, no one's heard from Brad, like we said. Yeah. And Larry Moore starts telling people what happened to Brad. He starts saying, shit, he fucking fed up. Wife, life. He said, unhappy wife, unhappy life. And his life is unhappy, and he's out of here. That was it. He was, turns out, he was not banging my wife. He was banging a young blonde in a red sports car. Who's got egg on their face now? We all do. It's me. It's me. I'm wrong. I'm sorry. We all miss it so hard, and I was willing to throw my whole life away about it. Didn't matter. So, he said that he was drinking, too, which they're AA people, so that's a big deal. He snapped. He said, I don't need none of these constraints. All right. He said, sick of everything. He's sick of the restaurant, sick of all this shit, and his wife, and all this work, and he borrowed 500 bucks, red sports car, blonde chick, possible Washington license. Yeah. And down the interstate. Woo-hoo. Let's go. All right. 500 bucks is all I need. It's all I need to make a new life for myself. Just 500. So, Moore ended up, like I said, driving his truck home here, and then also that night, a cop saw him in his camper, and he did a little click, click, turn the lights off while the guy was looking at him. So, November 10th, the next day, that's when Rene says, fucking, I know where he is. I know where he went. He wasn't supposed to tell anybody, but he told me he went with fucking Larry. To Bears. Yeah. To Bears. So, she was convinced right away he's dead, which also is kind of like a wife going, he's not running away with some woman on me. He must be dead. This pussy is right. He's dead, if anything. He better be dead. No man walks away from this. You understand? Yeah. You have to be carried out away from this on a cart, on a stretcher. On a journey in a bag with a zipper. That's it. You get zippered up out of here. So, yeah, her first report was missing persons report, and she said that he went to the truck stop to pick up Larry Moore, never came home. They said, oh, shit, his car is there. No broken glass, no foul play, no blood. Like he walked away. Like he just walked away and started a new life. And they all said, too, like, well, we got a witness that says they saw him do this, and this is not uncommon here. He's done it before? Not him, but just not uncommon for people in Montana to just leave sometimes and also leave from a truck stop. It's all, you know, if we didn't have a witness, then whatever. But we have a witness that says he saw this, and that's common. And then we have a wife that says, I just know he's dead, which makes no sense. So they're like. Also, not for nothing, but we see him being flighty from careers. That's the other thing. Who knows? Now, they all said he's a real steady cat. Yeah. Yeah. They all said he's a real steady guy and everything. But who knows? People lose it. They do. And they'll leave, especially if you're pushing fucking 40 and it was a little midlife crisis. You might snap. Start thinking about this chick coming on to me. And when's the next time I'm going to bang a chick in her 20s? I'm leaving. When's that ever going to happen again? Yeah. So Shelly now, Larry's wife, is telling people that she's afraid that Larry may have done something to Brad. Oh. That's what she's telling her friends and stuff. She goes, I don't mean, I don't want to say it, but I'm just. Feels like. Yeah. I'm afraid of that. It's just, I got a feeling. So at this point, everyone in town knows everything about this. They know that, that Larry thought that the two of his wife was banging Brad. They know that Brad disappeared. They know that Larry says he hopped in a car with a blonde chick. They know the wife doesn't believe that. And the wife thinks he's dead. Everybody knows all of this. And especially because they run the restaurant too, which is another reason why everybody knows everybody here. So anyway, a lot of. Basically, the town is 50, 50. Some of the people think there's people that say they saw Brad hitchhiking on the I-90. What? Hitchhiking down the road. Some out there thumb in the wind. Other people said, I mean, if you ran away with a young girl, that makes sense. Other people said, if he, I know him, he would have never abandoned his family. He's must be dead. So either knee deep in young coos or dead. Those are the. Only options for him. There's no middle ground here. Or passenger seat of a, of a truck running down the 18 wheels, humming down the interstate. He's about to tell someone large Marge sent him. We don't know. So then Larry claims he gets a phone call. Okay. This is the, this is the November 10th, the day after the disappearance here, Larry calls the, the same. Sergeant who he asked, do you think Brad's banging? My wife calls him and he says, Hey, come over to my house. I need you. Oh, okay. This guy arrives. And Larry Moore says that, look, I got a call from a woman. I needed to tell the police first. He said, he said that the woman said, quote, Brad's okay. Brad's fine. And don't have anybody look for him. I don't, I don't know what that means or anything, but that's, that's, I got a call woman's voice. That's what she said. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad you called because that is the key, key words for call off manhunt. Oh, let me, let me radio everybody. Yeah. Cause we could just, he's fine. Brad's no more looking. Yeah. He's good. He got the phone call. You know, it's, it's the, yeah, no, he got the pussy call. Yeah. It's on there. It's the secret one. Yep. So a couple of days later, officers come back to talk to Larry again, because he's the last one who's seen Brad. And he's working on. He's working on his camper, which is still mounted on his pickup, parked out in front of his machine shop. He is applying a tar like substance all over the walls of this fucking camp on the inside. I think on the outside and the inside. Oh, and they said, what, what you doing? Yeah. And he said, patching water leaks was his answer. Oh, now it's November and it's cold. And this isn't the time you would apply something like this at all. And also rainy seasons over. So that also doesn't make sense. So they're like, that's weird. Um, so he continues to tell people different stories. Some people said, Larry, Larry tells different people, different stories. He tells some people that, um, that he thought that, uh, um, you know, that he, he thought it was Brad getting into the car, but then he tells other people, I've talked to Brad and watched him walk away and get into the car. And he said, some people, he said he was drunk and some people, he didn't. He didn't say he was drunk. And then sometimes he said he gave him $500 and then sometimes it was less than $500. And then another story, Larry says that Brad told him not to tell anyone he'd left for at least 24 hours. Give me a headstart. Give me, give me a day's time. Headstart. Give me three steps. Cause what he said, uh, so one witness, a guy named Terry Albertson, uh, here, he said that Larry Moore told him a similar story in a. Bar on November 11th, but that Larry Moore claimed that he last saw Brad near an airport, not the interstate. So now he's getting on a plane and not a car. Oh no. It's a whole different thing. Now we can be anywhere, anywhere in the world. He said a car, man. He could, I think that's what Larry was thinking too. Cause if you're, if you were lying about the car, you'd be like a car can only get so far on a day in a certain amount of time. Now a plane, he could be in five times Philippines right now. It could be anywhere. It could be in New Zealand. Yeah. So, um, he said that, uh, that more talked in a loud voice while he told him about this too, quote, as if he wanted everyone in earshot to hear the story to overhear. Wow. Now he said also that another person, he told the Lieutenant that he saw Brad get into the car, uh, on inter into a car and interstate 90 after they'd stopped at the truck stop. He said that. that he was depressed and he said, Said that Brad basically left to go to the bathroom and then just instead of going to the bathroom and coming back, he went to the bathroom, then got in this car and left. So I didn't see him anymore. He's skipping the check. Yeah. Yeah. The one this police lieutenant said, Larry told me that Brad basically would like to get away for a while and that he thought that he definitely thought it was a planned disappearance. This seems like a coordinated thing. So neighbors see a bunch of times Larry Moore steam cleaning the inside of his camper at this point. Oh, and they were like, he's got a pressure washer. Oh, in freezing temperatures inside a camper. Which you don't pressure washer. It's freezing. Generally, a camper usually just takes a bit of Lysol wipes. Yeah. It's a 409. Yeah. You don't pressure wash. You don't push out the inside. No. It's like your house. You don't want to put water in there. Would you pressure wash your house on the inside? Right. Right in the drywall. Pressure wash your living room. Would you do that? Get the ceiling fan. There's all dust up. You're breaking the fucking things off of that thing. So and they were like, that's real weird. They said using a power washer to clean the interior of a camper in freezing weather is not something you normally see. That's weird. Yeah. At one point, too. There's a 12. A 12-volt car battery inside the camper with the caps off, and acid has been spilled on the floor. Oh, what? It's battery acid here. Why would the battery be in there spillable? That's the crazy part. Now, lab analysis later from the camper floor comes back consistent with sulfuric acid, which is the acid in the car battery, and we'll get to that now. So the camper, when the cops see the camper here, when they go to look around in here, the brown carpet is gone, number one. I don't know if the pressure washer took it right off the floor or what, but it's gone. As we know, people definitely remember there being a brown carpet, and now there is no brown carpet. The cop during the search also said he noticed the camper, quote, smelled of cleaning fluids, and he found a large amount of tar under the carpet. Huh. Which is interesting. Under the carpet that's there now. Yeah. The 12-volt battery sits, car battery, sitting inside the camper with the caps removed, with acid spilled on the floor. A section of interior paneling has been cut out and replaced with a piece that doesn't match, the wall paneling. Yeah. Which you can really tell. Horizontal one. Yeah, you can really tell when that shit doesn't match. An officer then found three bullet holes in the camper covered with tar. And he found a bullet under the floor located under the interior step. Oh. So then he went under the floor. Yeah. And he found a bullet. Oh, what? He found a bullet under the floor. It's in there still. Yep. It had a reddish substance on it. Uh-huh. As it's bad times when bullets have reddish substances on them. Later identified as blood, that substance. Wow. Now, a ballistics expert would later examine the fragment and describe soft damage, the kind of deformation. That a bullet picks up after passing through tissue, which slows it down. Wow. Not passing through like a tree or something, a tissue. They also find blood stains just all over the camper, which apparently is not uncommon for a hunting camper. Apparently. There's animal blood. If you hit something, yeah, there's going to be blood all over the blood. And you got knives out. People cut themselves. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, it happens. It's not like OJ playing golf. Like, yeah, man, I cut myself. I mean, I play golf, so I cut myself all the time. There's always blood in this car. Round club, round ball. This is my bleeding truck. Yeah, there's nothing pointy in a golf. A T, not very. T's, that point is really not real pointy, unfortunately. Well, it punctures sod, and that's it. That's about it, yeah. And also, the brown carpet's gone, and the interior paneling is missing. Then one investigator notices something. Remember how it's got little curtains, little windows with curtains, those little tiny curtains they close there? Well, on a curtain. On a curtain, he notices something that doesn't look right. It's small, about the size of a quarter, and it looks like a bit of yellowish fat. What? Some sort of viscera of some kind. Yeah. Some chunk of flesh. Tissue. He said it was kind of like chicken fat. Oh. So, who knows what it is, but they take the whole curtain just in case here. The crime lab examines the material and determines it is human tissue. Whoa. And under magnificence. Indication, its striations are identified as muscle. What? A piece of human muscle is on the curtain. Wow. Which is, and they said, that's not proof someone's dead. That could happen. But the size of a quarter? They said it's definitely a piece that, it wouldn't kill somebody to lose this piece of, you know, of tissue. You could hook yourself on something. Come off your bicep, yeah. Yeah, a nail on the wall. Who knows? It seems to happen. It's going to hurt like a motherfucker, though. For sure. For sure. And they said, well, this match is also Brad's blood type. What's up with that? Yeah. So, Larry says, well, yeah, we've been hunting a ton of times. And I'm sure at some point, Brad cut himself as we were removing a deer that, you know, we had killed on a hunting trip. But, you know, I can imagine that. He goes, I don't see how that wouldn't happen. No other witnesses have said that Larry put a deer on his trailer and not in the camper. Neither do they. They were like, oh. Oh, I'm sorry. They have said that he put his deer on a trailer when he got it. He wouldn't put it in his camper. Right. You don't. Because that's where you're living. You wouldn't put the animal in there to bleed out. That makes no sense whatsoever. So, or I know it's already bled out, but to continue to ooze. Yeah, you don't field dress it on the dinette. No, just right by that little toilet thing, the little chemical toilet. Right by the small hold your shit inside toilet. Yeah. Now, the interior step board had been removed from the camper and taken to the crime lab. While examining the blood stains on its underside, scientists found another small piece of tissue on the step that they were examining lodged around one of the holes in the step. So, they sent it to a neuropathologist in Ohio. And under a microscope, he saw granular cells and, oh, Purkinje cells. Yeah. P-U-R-K-I-N-J-E. Yeah. Okay. A distinctive kind of large neuron. And they said it's a mammal and it's a piece of the cerebellum. It's a piece of brain. It's a brain that's in there. That's on his steps. A chunk of brain is on his step. Yeah. Oh, boy. Cerebellum's at the base of your brain, back of the head, beneath the skull. Like, you can't just. You can't just pull it out. You can't just. You can't scratch it and go, oh, shit, I got some cerebellum on me. That's not what happens. You can't really lose a piece of it and then just wander off. That's not really how it goes. You don't get cut and a piece just falls somewhere. No, it doesn't happen. So, then they do some, not really spatter shit, but some angle shit. Yeah. They take lasers and shoot them through different angles, they say. You could use a long fucking. Like a pointer for a chalkboard and it would work the same. But a laser looks cooler and makes them feel like they're really doing something. Like, this is why I got into police work, to use lasers and cool shit while I investigate crime scenes. This is awesome. Somebody put the cat away. I'm going to pull out the laser. Yeah, yeah. They're going to go nuts. Someone brought out a big stick and they're like, what are we, fucking small time? Big stick. We got county money behind us. Yeah, everybody gets big sticks. We're the cops. We should have lasers. So, they get. They get lasers and they look at the bullet holes, the location of the muscle tissue on the curtain and the location of the brain tissue on the step and run lasers through possible paths of what happened. Okay. The angles put the shooter as standing. Yep. The bullet holes here. They put the target as low or collapsed on the floor near the door with his head toward the step. That's how brain would have got on it. They could not say whether whoever this was, was lying face up or face down. They could say that someone standing up had fired multiple times at someone who was already down. That's what they could say. Okay. So, November 23rd, 1990, Larry Moore is brought to the Yellowstone or West Yellowstone Police Station for an interview. Yeah. Okay. We got to have a little shit shot here. So, there's the sheriff is there, a lieutenant, our two lieutenants and the sergeant who he had asked, is this guy fucking my wife and all that stuff. Yeah. And come over. And come over. And the guy who originally, I believe, found the first bit of tar and all that and said, this isn't right. Okay. He's read his Miranda rights. He signs the waiver. He starts talking. They tell him, you know, we have a search warrant for your camper, as you knew. Yeah. And, you know, we found some weird stuff and, you know, what do you think about that, basically? And he says, I'm done talking to you. Oh. As soon as they start talking about that shit. They keep talking. They keep talking to him. He says, I want a lawyer. I don't want talking anymore. I want a lawyer. And they go, let me just ask you a few more questions. Why? I don't know. Why don't they do it? Well, it's just a kind of Montana. We're all sitting here man to man. Like we don't need the law of the woods. Miranda was a lady in Arizona. Are you a lady in Arizona? No, you're not. You're a man in Montana. You should just talk to us. Then you don't need none of these waivers. Do you sign your life away to a waiver? No, you don't. That's right. Not around these parts. That's a fella in Arizona. You bunch of assholes. I figured that was what they'd tell her. They'd tell the guy, she's a little, little, tiny woman out in Arizona. Cute little white woman. Cute, cute little white. Oh, actually, Miranda. They cuffed that little girl. They cuffed her up good. Figured they'd just lie to him. Who knows? Anyway, they just keep talking to him? So then he has a second story. That they get out of him. He says, listen, all right, fine. I've shot some rounds off in my camper before, but who hasn't? Damn it. Jesus, that's what you do in a camper. He says, I used a.357 revolver a few times to shoot at, quote, some rats in my camper. No, you didn't. I have many questions. First of all, how the fuck did rats get in your camper? Number one, it's sitting on top of your truck there. You ever had rats in your car or anybody? Anybody out there, have you ever had rats in your car? No. Inside the cab. Inside, yeah. Under the hood, sure, we get it. Sure, in the car. Spiders, maybe. You get a spider once in a while. Not rats. You got a rat in your car? You've got a hole in your car. You got problems. So this guy says he uses his.357 to buck shots at rats from no more than three feet away, because there's no more room than that, and apparently missed them. Still didn't hit them. He said, you know, you're searching, but you're going to find bullet holes, maybe even fragments of bullets, because I buck shots at a rat if it comes in my goddamn camper. And he said, you're welcome to have the gun I use to shoot at the rats. Oh? And so they said, okay. So he's saying he's firing. A.357, by the way, is a cannon of a gun to be shooting. So much gun. You would not shoot that inside a closed, tiny space on purpose if you could help it, basically. Boy, are they true. They shoot so straight. That's a great gun. I'm sure it is. It's a lot of gun. It's a shitload of gun is the problem. Yeah. So he tells them all that, and then he says, I want a lawyer. Oh. I told you everything I'm going to tell you. They finally end the interview. Okay. Now, he can't drive himself home, because his sheriff's office has seized his pickup truck. Right. To search it. So the sheriff asked that sergeant, who he had talked to earlier about, is this guy fucking my wife? So the sheriff asked the sergeant, who Larry had called and talked to about the affair, to take Larry home and pick up his.357 that he shot rats with. Take him with you, yeah. Now, Burns, the sergeant here, who has known Larry more for years, says, well, you know, they might as well, we might as well just take my car and we'll go. You know, let's just go on down. I'll give you a ride. All right. So on the way, Burns says some stuff. Larry answers some questions. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if they've known each other for years. One has a badge and one is a Mirandized suspect, so can't do that. That's interesting. Mirandized suspect who has said, I want a lawyer. Who's already invoked their counsel. So they said that you may, the cop said, you make sure you don't do anything to yourself. You know, nothing that's bad. That's what the cop said. And Larry said this, which is awful. He said, quote, if I did something to myself, then we'd never find Brad. Which would make you go, what's that now? What'd you just say? Why did he say that? And then they stopped because Burns remembers that this is not, whatever he just said isn't admissible anyway because he's already invoked his right to counsel. So later that night, Moore said he left some property in the patrol car. So he came down to the West Yellowstone police station to get it on his own. The sheriff, without repeating the Miranda warnings, which he's been left and come back and been out of police custody. So asked him about the rat story and then had him draw a diagram of the rat incident. Draw me a picture of where the rats were, where I would pay money to see what this asshole drew on a diagram. Here's me. It is a five by six area, 30 square feet. Gas. Here's rats here, I shot. It's right there. Yeah, you see where I, the only place I could be, to shoot those shots is right about there. Now, meanwhile here, Renee, Brad's wife, would love to know where Brad is. This is all fun and cute. It's been fucking two weeks now. Where's my husband, basically, is what's going on here. So she knew, she knew he had left because he told her. She doesn't believe the red car thing for one second. Not at all. She knew better than anyone what's been going on between Brad and Larry because Brad tells her about it. And then Larry calls her. He calls up and says, is your husband fucking my wife? So, but the rumor mill is completely the other way. Everyone in town pretty much is like, he ran away. Like, because that's a more fun, salacious rumor. I mean, yeah, somebody got out of here. So, you know, he's a good looking guy. He, you know, he's banging his friend's wife. It all makes sense. You know, a jealous husband, a blonde in a sports car. It's just, it sounds, it's like a music video from 1987. It's like the fucking Boys of Summer video. It's Brian Adams, whatever it is, he's screaming. He's screaming something about the summer of 69 or some shit. I don't know what's going on, but it's all happening. The alternative is these two guys who we've both liked and trusted for years. We've completely misjudged them. One was fucking the other's wife and the other's a murderer. Those are the options. Or is it more fun that one guy just snapped and ran off with some hot young blonde? It seems more fun that way. Yeah, the other one's just. Sad. Yeah, it hurts. That hurts, yeah. And it makes you the dummy for believing these people for years. Or believing at least Larry that he's a nice guy. So, and Renee said so many people because she would talk to people. She's running a restaurant still and she would talk to people and, you know, about everything. And she said people would come up and go, honey, maybe he did just run off. I mean, that's, people do that. And she'd be like, no, I know he did. That was the quote she gave that people would say all the time. Honey, honey, honey, maybe he did run off. Stop being so proud of yourself. Yeah. So, that's what they're saying. And it's really weird. Meanwhile, she thinks he's dead. Yeah. So, December 1st, Larry Moore comes in for another interview. Uh-oh. This time with his attorney. Uh-huh. Okay, so this is his second interview and his third story. Because his first story is, I don't know. My second story is, I shot rats. And now he's got a third story on his second interview. With a lawyer present. On his lawyer's advice, he later said, he admits the rat story was bullshit. Right. Because that's a terrible story and they don't believe it at all. Go ahead and tell them you've never shot a rat indoors ever in your life. Please do that. With a.357, of course. That's the thing. Please tell the cops you didn't explode a rat in any indoor situation ever. I just see exit fucking wounds, exit holes coming out of this camper, too. It's a.357. Shells ripped through the fucking thin, non-insulated fucking walls. So dumb. So, he changes his story here. Yeah. And he says that he was paying the bill for breakfast that he and Brad had. Uh-huh. And Brad said he was going to go out to the truck, to Moore's truck. That's how he got outside. He said Brad had been drinking that morning and he said that, you know, I paid for breakfast. And whatever. And he went out to my truck. And he said, when I went back out to my truck, I found him in the back of the camper. He wasn't in the truck. He was in the camper. Oh. And he said that he was armed with a pistol and in a suicidal state, waving the gun around, talking about, I'm going to end it all. I'm going to blow my brains out. Okay. And just really talking and waving and scaring poor Larry, basically, here. So, Larry said, seeing him in this state, couldn't let him just sit there and let this happen. And he jumped into the camper. So, now two grown men in a camper. Right. That doesn't fit them. And wrestled him. Grabbed his arm and started wrestling him for the gun. He went off three times. Inside this camper. And he said, the gun went off. Yeah. And the bullet grazed Brad's head. Oh. But it was superficial. Just a flesh wound. Just a scratch here. Brad was bleeding, though. And he's like, oh, shit, I'm bleeding. Yeah. Then Brad said he made Larry promise. Not to tell anyone. Don't tell anyone what happened here, okay? Please, don't tell anyone I lost it. Because, you know, I'm applying for that undersheriff job and everything. So, I don't want people to know I'm nuts here. In his mind, that's what he's thinking. So, Moore said he then went inside to the truck stop to get some water to clean up the blood. And when he came back, Brad was gone. Oh. He said, I'm pretty. He said, I looked out. I looked out. Gave one of these. Looked all around. And he said, I'm pretty sure I saw on On the internet, I just said, on the internet, I saw on the interstate, Brad getting, he was on the interstate on-ramp getting into a red car of a blonde woman driver. I'm pretty sure I did see that, though. Okay. But he just took off, didn't even clean up his wound, just took right off. 357 scratch right there on his head. With a bleeding, superficial gunshot wound to the head. Pretty blondes in red sports cars oftentimes stop for bloody men. Get on in, sexy bloody man, you. Hey, hot man. You must be a man if you're bleeding like that. Side of your head matches my car, get in. So then he also said that he added some more things. He said that when he got into the camper, he smelled gunpowder as he got into the camper. And that's when he found him sitting on the floor. This is great, too. More details. He was, they said, well, where was he exactly with the gun? He said, well, he was sitting on the floor. And I heard, like I said, I smelled gunpowder, so he must have bucked a shot off already. Shot one, yeah. He said he was just sitting on the floor with the gun next to a copy of Outdoor Life magazine. Which had an article on how to blow your brains out in a tiny camper. Which was, he was exactly what he was looking for. It was the November fucking 89 edition of the magazine. It's a great article if you want to check it out. Right next to the new Brown Trout World Record. Shot in the Grand Canyon. Totally. Well, then he said that he smelled gunpowder because Brad admitted he had fired the gun off in the trailer. And he said, why'd you do that? And he said, Brad told him that he shot at the picture of a deer on the cover of the Outdoor Life magazine. Okay. Okay. I'm furious. I ain't never shot one. I never got him. So, according to this, Moore said that he, quote, jumped on Brad. And wrestled with him. And the gun went off, hitting Brad in the forehead, now he says. Now, Larry said he told Brad he's going to call the police. Grazed his forehead. Knocked him in the middle of the forehead. Not center punched. Larry was like, I got to call the police to let them know that there's been a discharge of a firearm. I mean, they're going to want to know. I'm a law-abiding citizen. And Brad said, no, absolutely not. No, if you do that, I'll kill myself. I'll do it right here. I've still got that. I've still got the gun. Oh, no. So, he said, okay, well, let's talk for a while then. So, they kept talking. And then Larry went into Bears with a coffee pot from the camper to get water to help clean the blood off of Brad and the trailer and the camper itself. And he told the detectives that Brad and a first aid kit. He said, I came back to the car. He didn't think to go to the first aid kit while he's there. He had to get a pot of water first. But he said, when I got back, Brad's gone. And tell you what, so is my first aid kit. Damn it. He said, I'll fix this on my own. And he, that's it. He said. It took about 11 Band-Aids and some iodine tabs. That's it. And jumped in that red car and on down the road. Had 18 inches of gauze in there. That did it. I'm all set. So, he said he then cleaned out the camper because, you know, the memories and all. So, he said that he told detectives that Brad asked him not to report what would happen, that this had happened. Please, just don't report this. Tell them you're doing red. You're at a target practice rather than me. You saved my life. So, this explains a few loose ends. This explains why there's blood. There's Brad's blood in there. It explains why there's bullet holes. Yeah. But it doesn't explain why there's brain. Brain. And a quarter-sized chunk of tissue in the brain. Which is very interesting here. And they said, so. Why did this all. Why didn't you tell us this to begin with? And he said, because I'm a man of my word and I made a promise to a friend. I promised that man I would not tell you guys. Where I come from, that means something. That means something. Placerville, California. It means something. So, they were like, oh, yeah, back in Placerville. That's fine. You're under arrest, dipshit. Turn around. Let's go with this. Make with the fucking hands behind the back there. Here we go. So, he's charged with murder. He's charged with deliberate homicide and two counts of tampering with or fabricating physical evidence. The town is lukewarm on this. The town around them is like, most of them believed him. So, they were like, I don't know about this. I think they're trying to scapegoat this fucking guy. They don't know what he said, right? Not exactly. I mean, there's stuff coming out in the newspaper, but it's not exactly, you know, things. But the reverend. The reverend Matt Graham of the First Baptist Church said, the whole thing doesn't make any sense. People really don't know what to say. One of the DJs on a local radio station said, shock is a good word. Everyone is just stunned that this could happen here. All right. Now, all back to this. Now, let's call a man and ask him. Tell him he won roses and ask him who he wants to send them to. Let's call a man and pretend. Let's pretend that this is. We haven't gotten the up and up, and we haven't already talked to him, even though that's the law. All right. Line one. We got Betty coming in. Hey, Betty, how are you today? Waking up in the morning. Cock-a-doodle-doo. Come on, Betty. Fuck. What are the odds that every single person that's ever gotten free flowers sends them to somebody who's not their significant other? Oh, every time. Oh, really? Well, let me send it to this chick I've been working at my job. Another person, really? Yeah. The worst. Yeah, they said everyone is just stunned that this could happen. This could happen here. Another woman who edits the Yellowstone Times, the editor of the Yellowstone Times newspaper, Elizabeth Layden, said nobody expects murder. Maybe he didn't even do it. A lot of people are holding out. Wow. And then another guy, Cal Dunbar, who owns the Food Roundup grocery store. It sounds like that's exactly what he does. Great place to get a real quality steak. The old Food Roundup. The Food Roundup. Because everybody knows everybody. It's like tossing a pebble in a pond. There's nobody that a wave doesn't touch in one way or another. Small town is what he just said. Oh, the ripples. Because of the ripples. We live in a small town. So he sits in jail for about 90 days, and then they let him post bail. What? He posts bail. Yeah. He's a free man. The problem is they don't have a body. This is no body, no crime. That's what we got going on here. Bob Marley sings it. No body, no crime. But you've got a man gone. You've got seven stories from the guy that you suspected it. But how do you know he's dead? How do you know one of those stories isn't true? He didn't get grazed, and there were no dead rats. That's the problem. They got muscle. They got a lying guy. But they don't have a corpse. Yeah, but you got brain. Pre-DNA, you do not have a corpse. You can't convict somebody, basically, without a corpse. How the fuck do you know he's dead? It's hard. So it's weird, man. So no Montana prosecutor up to that point had ever won a murder conviction with no body. Without a body. So you're going in with literally trying to make precedent, because it's never happened in your entire state before. Wow. Yeah. So two potential jurors here would later say, who were called to do the voir dire, said that they straight, quote, could not convict anyone of homicide unless the state produces a body of a dead person. They could never do it. Because there could always be, what if the guy's alive? Well, walk his ass in here, then. Well, that's the thing. That's like, I can't remember what movie or TV show it was, but there's a lawyer, a defense lawyer, that goes, I call my next witness and calls the victim. And everybody looks, and he goes, ha, see, so you don't know he's dead. I didn't say, there he is, and everybody went, but he's dead. Everyone looked to the door, because you thought maybe there's a chance he is alive. That right there means, how can you convict somebody? You thought he was going to walk in, for Christ's sake. Which is clever and bullshit. Well, because you told us he was. Exactly. It's a stunt, but also it's- You son of a bitch. That can get a dumb person to go, that's airtight logic, boy. I'll tell you what. Remember when you were a kid and your friend would go, look at that dead bird. Dead bird flying. And everybody looks up. Exactly. It's because you pointed, you fucking asshole. Yeah, but dumb people go, he's got a point. There's a certain logic that smart people would get angry at, but dumb people go, can't escape that. He's right. When you're right, you're right. I mean, what you going to do? So the state needs to prove that the brain and muscle and blood came from Brad. Yeah. Whoever had lost it could not have survived. Okay. Because you can't say- The brain, I mean, that's pretty- That's the part. Yeah. That's the thing. The cerebellum. It's kind of hard to get cerebellum meat out on your- That's that big juicy part at the bottom of the brain. Yeah. It's hard to get your cerebellum meat on a camper step and walk away from that. It's interesting. Now, the other thing is DNA had never been in a Montana courtroom before. Oh. So this is all some new shit here. Wow. It is. this point that Renee Brad, Brad's wife and her two children file a wrongful death suit against Larry Moore. Oh, they say, well, if you guys are going to drag your feet and dick off and let this guy out on bail, I'm going to fucking sue him before he spends all his money. So now there is no proof that he's dead, obviously, and that the newspaper article from the time says Renee Brisbane and her two children have filed a wrongful death suit against the man suspected of killing her husband, Brad, even though there's no proof her husband is dead. That's how the newspaper article starts out. So, wow. The lawyer representing Larry Moore called the suit highly unusual, quote, considering there's still no proof that anyone is dead. I have no earthly idea what she's up to. I mean, I think she's up to trying to get this thing started. I would say so. Yeah. It accuses it's a wrongful death suit and it seeks punitive and compensatory damages. And that's that. So, OK. Winter. Here, 90 into 91. Things are moving through the courthouses. But the thing they really would love to find is fucking Brad. Right. They love to find him. At least the body. They start the biggest manhunt in county history looking for Brad, trying to find him here. He's got four hours that he's unaccounted for. That's a big radius. Huge around. That's what they're thinking, too. But they work the entire area. Around West Yellowstone, these searchers, including a gravel pit north of town that Larry used to have either part ownership to or access to. They even search that. They search everywhere. They don't find Brad. They launched this for months. They search months. This is every day. Then winter closes in, covers everything. The lake freezes over. They're like, what do we do? It's everything. If he's here, he's under two feet of snow at this point. Right. So there's an article here that says hunt for bodies. Starts and stops a slight break in frigid subzero temperatures. You know, just like the East Coast is. Yeah. Just like Boston. Same thing. Allowed Gallatin County officials one day to resume their search near West Yellowstone for the body of former deputy Brad Brisbane. Because that's another thing. They're looking at this as a former cop. Arctic cold, which forced a halt to the search in a nearby gravel pit after one day on December 19th, again caused the hunt to be suspended. On Friday, the sheriff said, we'll have to see what the weather does, but it might get called off again for a time due to the weather. And they keep talking about that. They, I guess, searched the Bozeman sand and gravel pit seven miles north of West Yellowstone. That's a seasonal job. I would say where he has access to. They said more also had access to a backhoe that can dig a hole up to 18 feet deep. What? Yeah. Get down deep. That's a big fucking backhoe. That's a big. Yeah. This guy does huge industrial jobs. This is a big deal. It's not just cleaning yards up. So this also searchers had to use a caterpillar to scrape a layer of dirt one foot at a time at the bottom of the pit. And after each pass of the machine, a dog trained to sniff out cadavers would go in and sniff more. They clear the dog out, get another foot, send the dog in. They said it was really hard. They said this deputy also said that he knew Brad because he was a deputy for years. And he said. He said that he found it ironic and somewhat emotional to be searching for his body with dogs when Brad would be the guy searching for a body with a dog. He said, working in a small town, I knew things would get close, but not this close. So they used as many as five dogs during the first day of the search. Wow. He said the scheduling problems prevented the return of all of all the dogs. You know, they get dates and things. Dogs have a lot of hectic play dates, hectic schedules. Union breaks. They got to go out of town for a while. Yeah. Wife and kids. Yeah. So, yeah, they looked everywhere. They said that they said if the body is in the gravel pit, B.C., the canine will find it. He's the best. They said the search was hampered by zero degree temperatures and 20 mile an hour winds. Just like Jersey. Just like fucking Delaware. So zero degrees and 20 mile an hour winds. It's every day. Really. You know, I don't think it's snowed in New York City in like five years, but it's every day. It happens. I know it has once in a while, but it doesn't snow there a lot at all. So they said as they search as a searcher spent time looking for the body, the windchill temperatures went down to thirty nine below zero. Fuck. Like everywhere else. And wow, that's that's fucking amazing. So they say the defense attorney says without the body, you're not getting a conviction in this state. Wow. Period. That's what they keep saying. So they said, well, we're going to find a body. God damn it. They said that the state's base, the state's case is based on statements by Moore and others. If that evidence can't be used because they're trying to get thrown out because he asked for a lawyer, then also the state would have to agree to a dismissal. The defense says Moore had access to several other pits, but added he was uncertain whether the sheriff's office would wait for warmer weather. They said, I don't know if these searchers. Well, if these searches will take place or whether we'll take what we learned here and wait till spring. And then there's a big article search dog. B.C. searches for cadavers and they're talking about this whole thing. Oh, yeah. So saying you've got to train them to alert pretty strongly on body parts and decaying tissue. Right. Which is what we're always saying, you know, with our dogs, you have to train them that way. If you want to raise them right, you got to raise them right. You got to raise them right. So that's in December. The problem is June 5th. There's an article June 5th, 1993. That comes up three years later. Search for murder victims. Body still continues. What they don't know. They're still looking. That's that's years from now. So they don't find it before the trial. Oh, my God. They say that we're following up anything and everything that might lead us to a body. It's pretty well known throughout the Northwest that we're looking for a body. Yeah. They say. They said we'd like to we will find the body if we get help help. Like if Larry Moore tells us where the body is, the one sheriff said. So that's interesting. They said that they had to empty out a nine thousand gallon propane tank, haul the tank out and dig down next to the cement pilings to do some shit. I don't know what they were doing. So he was buried next to that. Yeah, they've really done a lot of shit like it's it's a lot. They said, we'll keep looking. We're still willing to investigate any tip and follow up on any lead. So that is that's post trial that we're going to talk about that. That all happened. Now, the family's position, like always, still is he's dead. Yeah, we're suing Larry. Now, 1991 letters start arriving, typed letters with a signature saying it's Brad. Oh, Brad. Oh, yeah. He's writing. They're postmarked nowhere near West Yellowstone. At least one of them came from Spokane, Washington. Washington plates on the red sports car. They all say, you know, so the we don't know the full text, but one of them is Brad is alive. He's fine. He is in Washington. He just needed to get away. The search can stop. Like, oh, he's fine now. Yeah. He apologizes for causing, quote, a real strain on everyone involved. And also the new sheriff. He congratulates him on his appointment. Also, keep up on that's on your election victory. And keep up on my my social, you know, things, my obligations. So essentially, his wife and four. He has four kids and a wife. They don't get any letters, but the sheriff gets a congratulations letter. Yeah. Apologizing for the inconvenience, which seems odd. Trying to get him to stop looking for him. Yes. And the letter congratulated the sheriff on being appointed. Meanwhile, in Montana. In Montana, sheriffs are elected. He was elected, not appointed. So that's a small thing, but it's something where they're like someone who had applied to be an undersheriff and worked for the county deputy. Should know that. Yeah. They should probably know how sheriffs are made here. You know, when a man loves a woman very much. Yeah. He knows how the sheriff's elected. A little sheriff comes out at the end there. That's how sheriffs are made. Yeah. So it's interesting. You know, said he got a letter delivered to him. Oh, yeah. And they said that Brad is alive in the letter. The letter refers to events that took place in Moore's camper. And it asks that Renee be looked after his wife. Okay. But Renee's name is misspelled. Oh, my God. I most people know how to spell their wife's name. Generally, you would. Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's there could be hard ones. Yeah. Do you leave? You leave the H off sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. You leave the H off of Sarah. She'll get upset. Yeah. It's not her name. My I tell you, my ex's dad, my father in law never spelled my name right on a single Christmas gift. That's how I knew that this was over. Is he a foreigner? I mean, the family is they're immigrants, but he's not. He was born and raised in fucking Pittsburgh. Okay. Because I've gotten some hilarious cards from foreigner relatives where they can't spell shit, people from Italy, and it's awesome. You can't spell James? No, no, they can't spell aunt and uncle. Oh, okay. Never mind James. James is a fucking way above their pay grade. But there's my father. He cracks up every time he says it. They got a card from my mother's aunt and uncle who is Aunt Chachine is her name. It's a nickname. Aunt Chachine and Uncle Nick. They said in the card it says Enda Chachine and Ogla Nick. That's how they say it. That's how they'd say uncle or aunt. It's Enda. Oh, Aunt Chachine and Ogla Nick is how they signed it. And that's the funniest fucking thing we've all been laughing about for 45 years. So, yeah, I didn't know if they were foreign. But this should probably, he should probably know how to spell his own wife's name. You know your wife's spelling. It's interesting. So, it's odd. Now, Larry walks this into the sheriff's office and said, hey, I just got this letter. Y'all should look at it. You know what I mean? Larry also, he describes a letter signed Doug that was sent from Mexico claiming that he was alive. And not only is he alive from Mexico, but he also says, by the way, I planted evidence to frame Larry. So, if you're thinking he did it, that was just my good works. But now I changed my mind. Signed Doe. Yeah. Exactly. So, sign Larnie. Okay, perfect. So, now he's, now Brad is the one scheming to get Larry put away somehow in this letter. So, Renee said, what's interesting, number one, they showed Renee and she said, number one, that's not Brad's signature on any of these letters. And number two, my fucking name is misspelled. He would never misspell his wife's name. He knows how to spell Renee, which is not that difficult of a goddamn name either. Right. So, the letters then go to the lab and they get prints. Nothing matches Brad on the prints on these, but nothing matches Larry either. There's, but there's fingerprints on it. They found some prints, but they don't match anybody. A forensic document examiner looks them over and finds that they are from the same typewriter, all the letters. Okay. Some purporting to come from Spokane, some from Mexico, but all from the same typewriter. So, somebody's shipping this typewriter all over to their friends. Yep. They said that it's cheap paper, the kind of paper used in high schools. Oh. They said, like, copy paper used in high schools. The typeface has no flaws, distinctive enough to trace to a specific machine. They don't think, but we'll find that later. Investigators also locate a greeting card that they know Brad had recently signed because someone got it personally from him. They said his real signature is fast and bold, a mix of printing and capitals. The signature on the letters is full cursive, slow-lating. It's labored and with a visible tremble. Oh, like they're worried that they're not getting this right. The capital B is built in three separate strokes. Oh. So, with a break where a natural writer wouldn't stop. They just keep going. Especially if you write it all the time. Yeah, exactly. And they said, so, basically, they said the signature is a drawing of a signature. Like, if you told, they gave a kid tracing paper and a signature and said, come up with that. Like a five-year-old, it would look like this. Like, shaky. Shaky and different, you know, breaks in the thing. So, then they decide, okay, there's this thing called DNA that's new. Yeah. To be able to work with. Anyway, it's not new. It's been in your body. But they're going to figure out how to work with it. Yeah. And, yeah, so, normally, DNA identification compares a crime scene sample to the person they think it came from. Right. But we don't know. You swab, yeah, you swab the suspect. You sample the victim. You see if they match. But Brad is nowhere to be sampled at this point. Unfortunately. So, the labs ran it backwards. Now, each child inherits half their DNA from their mother, half from their father. Indeed. So, they sample the children, then sample their mothers and subtract the mother's contribution from each child. Do the math. Connected. Yeah. So, what's left had to come from the father, basically. So, they check, then check whether the tissue in the camper could have been from Brad. Does it match this half? Yeah. Add Brad's mother to the mix. Yeah. So, the father's contribution can be confirmed from the other direction. There you go. So, that's how they do it. So, this Selmark people, they receive blood samples from seven people. Rosaline Kovash, who's Brad's former wife, their children, Jeremiah and Aaron, Renee Brisbane, who is his current wife, their children, Parker and Mariah, and Mary Ann Brisbane, Brad's mother. So, they need to have all of that stuff. Now, there's also the muscle in the curtain. The tissue. Yeah. They cut it into three pieces. One stays in Montana. One goes to Selmark, which is this lab. Weird company. For restriction fragment length polymorphism testing, RFLP, which at the time is as good as you get. Now, RFLP needs a decent amount of DNA. It cuts the DNA into fragments, separated them by a gel, and by using an electric current, transferred them to a nylon membrane, tagged them with red tape. Yeah. With radioactive probes, and exposed the whole thing to x-ray film. Someone came up with that. That's right. That blows my fucking mind. I feel so stupid when I hear shit like that. Yeah. Well, let's try and just tag it with radioactive probes first. Let's see how that goes. What do you say? Put it on the nylon. Trial and error. So, the result is an autora diagraph, a column of dark bands that looks like a barcode. That's how you get DNA. So, they used. Five probes at five genetic locations. For each mother, her two children, and the tissue, they lined up the bands, and each child, one band should match the mother, the other should match the tissue, and if the tissue came from the father, you get how that goes. Right. So, there was two snags, though, here. On one probe, Mariah's maternal band didn't show at all. Huh. The state's expert had likely run off the end of the gel, they said. Had it likely run off the end of the gel? Oh, got it, yeah. On another probe, here, the tissue's band didn't match either of Mary Ann Brisbane's bands. So, out of nine visible bands across five people, the tissue matched four of Mary Ann's, and the experts explained the discrepancy as a mutation, noting the high known mutation rate at those locations of the DNA. The second piece of curtain tissue went to another place for testing, with an older method that examines inherited markers on antibody molecules. It's been used to identify blood since the 60s, so that's just to get that. So, the result, basically, this is from a human, it's not a rat chunk, and consistent with having come from the biological father of the Brisbane children. Oh. Which we know to be Brad. Yeah. So, here we go. Then, the brain tissue from the step was too small for RFPs. That testing. So, the state reached a newer method here, which is PCR, which is, they still use PCR. It was, in 1990, though, unfamiliar to juries. Think about, when they did the OJ trial in 95, the jury was skeptical, and people were like, what the fuck is DNA? Even the district attorney was like, it's not a slam dunk, because people don't know what the fuck DNA is, and they don't get it. You know? Period. They don't understand how important this is. No, they had no idea. So, now, it's just something that we know, like oxygen and gravity, there's DNA, but back then, they were like, this sounds like horse shit. Sounds like kooky shit. This sounds like Star Trek. We're all unique. Okay. Yeah. All of us are fucking individuals. I don't have to. So, anyway, the sample goes into a buffer with chemical primers, and they do all this type of shit, and I won't get into the process. But, anyway. They embed the brain tissue in a paraffin block and send it to a place in New Mexico, a cancer center in New Mexico. They extract the DNA. Then, they send the extract to a place in Denver. Wow. This is quite the process here. Then, they type the Brisbane children, and they said, among the four children, there are only two alleles. Alleles. Alleles. That's right. Alleles. Thank you. Found in the. It's like, I know that word. Yeah, you said it. I was like, I know that word. I've seen that goddamn word. Now, if you see it in front of you, you go, ooh, A-L-L-E-L-E-S. Yeah, it's too many. Yeah. It looks fresh. They should have more E's and less L's. Yeah. Found the four and the three. Since any given person can only have two alleles, the biological father of these individuals had to have a three and a four allele. The evidentiary material, the brain tissue, typed as 3-4, so it cannot be excluded as having come from the biological father. Ah. So, it's probably his. His brain. Yeah. That's, yeah. It's his brain. So, the cost of this at the time was massive. Astronomical. This investigation became one of the most expensive in the history of Montana at this point. So, the forensic work, out-of-state crime labs, commercial DNA labs back when this shit was really new, a university cancer center, an out-of-state neuropathologist, document examiners, ballistics. Cutting checks to all these people. All of them. Molecular biologists. geneticists, statisticians they have to hire too. It's fucking great. crazy um so march 1991 this is all happening and the local newspaper figured out that the case was going to turn on dna and they have a big article in the bozeman daily chronicle titled invisible crime clues oh because it's all new yeah it told readers that dna fingerprinting has been viewed as virtually foolproof in linking suspects with crime but they also told them dna testing is far from perfect they said attorneys have begun challenging the process and succeeding causing the scientific community to re-examine the procedure how about it all right now the other thing is about they they found out that they think that larry they they get the typewriter back to the the typewriter in brad's west yellowstone high school office what they somehow said he went those type those letters were all typed on his typewriter from school on brad's on brad's own typewriter from school then signed with his name and sent out which is crazy all the letters that went out they give larry more freedom to travel he also wants his pickup truck back yeah i bet well he's out on bail and they were like what the fuck the district attorney was like the he said quote the truck is the murder scene that truck had bullet fragments in it which more readily admitted he destroyed yeah we're going to give him the truck so they said you can't have the truck but you can you can go do whatever you want because for business he has to travel all over the place so they let him they have tons of dna battles here defense lawyers ask the judge to bar the state from using genetic testing results from a private maryland lab because the results won't meet court deadlines for submitted evidence so it's all of that kind of thing the judge said the issue of corpus delecti is not dead in this case we need something that's going to get to resolving that meaning you got to prove this fucking guy is dead right essentially show us a body then the defense attorney said one centimeter of muscle tissue doesn't prove death okay so that's where we're at uh there's a pre-trial circus um huge circus here uh number one over all of his interviews the november 23rd and the december 1st interviews and basically they said the judge was quoted at the time saying that um basically that they they should definitely not fucking uh count they shouldn't come in and things are appealed it doesn't matter they're the all the interviews are not going to be allowed in court um then also they made a ruling here um the trial court mates makes a ruling it's suppressed evidence of what larry did after the shooting the tar the battery acid the missing carpet the mismatch paneling the moving of the camper the lights going off it excluded all testimony from shelly moore and from a witness named hoffman whose testimony about motive had been sealed huh what's the evidence we have then they really have nothing then the prosecutor is removed the lead prosecutor marty lambert is kicked off the case um and the judge is pissed off at him too the judge said quote i don't want to see his face in the court regarding the case of larry moore he's out that's what he said okay they said the decision was based influenced on the prosecutor's admission that he had once joked that even if he didn't convict moore he would drive him out of business and into bankruptcy wow the joke and the dispersing of confidential information indicated a personal vendetta and misuse of power and the defense attorney said well let's not only dismiss the case but let's also dismiss the case of larry moore the judge said let's dismiss him let's dismiss all of this tainted evidence that the guy gathered everything you have essentially he did it and the judge said it's not so fast easy easy take it he's gone evidence is in yeah he said though uh he also uh um yeah so that's how he goes he said what kind when that when this kind of attitude exists there's something wrong in the county attorney's office the judge said um so anyway there's all a big deal then there's reverses where the money goes to the judge and the judge says well let's dismiss him let's dismiss all of the money that's in the case let's dismiss him let's dismiss all of the money that's in the case the court reverses the trial court on just about every point the cleanup of evidence is allowed in now it showed consciousness of guilt and was part of everything shelly moore would be allowed to testify uh about everything except confidential marital communications and that witness hoffman that testimony's back in too so now they have a case again then they're trying to get it moved to a different county um they wherever just away uh they pulled they pulled 106 county residents and they're trying to get it moved to a different county um they wherever just away residents and 85.8 percent have been exposed to coverage of the case right 30.2 percent had formed an opinion 59 percent hadn't and 15.1 percent said i don't know what somebody's anything i don't know who what's that now um so the defense defense's own survey uh they conceded that the survey did not overwhelmingly indicate one way or the other where whether he would get a fair trial so with that being said uh let's do it yeah yeah then there's a shitload of dna fights man the judge ruled the dna admissible writing based upon a thorough and conscientious review of all the dna evidence the court's conclusion is that while there are cracks in the foundation of testimony of some of the state's expert witnesses such is sufficiently mitigated by the overall testimony of witnesses to create an issue of fact the credibility of the witnesses issues of fact and And the weight to be accorded to the testimony of witnesses are issues for a jury to resolve, not the court. That's for them to decide, those 12. And that's what they do a lot of the times. They'll say, Your Honor, you can't let this person testify because he's going to say this and it's all lies. And the judge goes, well, it's up to the jury to say whether they believe it or not. I don't decide anyway. Yeah. My job isn't to decide who's lying. My job is to decide whether it's being done in a fair way. And that's it. Mine is to make sure you do this shit by the book so that we don't have a fucking retrial or shit gets thrown out or whatever. Something. Well, it's appeals. Yeah. So since the DNA was coming in, then the defense asked the judge to block the statistics, which is the numbers estimating how rare matches would be, which you hear that the first thing now. Oh, it's one in 8.8 trillion people. That's how many people. It's him definitely. Big number. So they're not allowing the match because this wasn't a common thing. The judge reason that probability figures invades the province of the jury, because when you get numbers high enough, in essence, you're directing a verdict. And that gets way beyond reasonable doubt. Well, that's because they know it's true, though. That's why. So that's right. The point is to destroy reasonable doubt. That's my job. I think at some point the Supreme Court said, yeah, you got to have statistics being allowed in because that's the whole point of the whole thing. And more would argue that DNA without. Statistics was meaningless and should have been excluded entirely. So if you can't allow statistics, then they shouldn't allow the DNA. And to begin with, it should all be out. Anyway, then there's they go after the PCR testing in detail, which I won't get into because it's it's very interesting. The PCR is vulnerable to contamination, though, is the basic bottom line. And the National Academy of Sciences also said so in a 1992 report. No. OK, so the science here is a big deal. Big deal. DNA was not in the vocabulary of every American at that point. It just wasn't. I mean, you'd have to be a real true crime junkie nerd to know this shit. And it would be hard. It's hard to do that without the Internet. You just have to look at your local newspaper and see if there's anything interesting or go down and see if there's books about shit. Otherwise, there is nothing. So in the Moore case, though, the record shows that the scientists handled. The brain tissue and the ones that did it knew about the contamination risk and took the steps to avoid it and detect it if it came up. So the defense raised the possibility of contamination and they said it never happened. Now, something a little also less boring here than DNA shit. The defense's biggest counterattack came from a guy named Dr. Blake, who was a plant geneticist at Montana State University. He took a piece of deer brain. Put human blood on it and ran it through PCR to amplify the DQ alpha gene. And the human blood on the deer brain produced a human DQ alpha result. So they said maybe the cerebellum on the step wasn't Brad's cerebellum at all. Maybe it was a deer cerebellum from one of those hunting trips and happened to have gotten Brad's blood on it. Got a little bit of Brad on it. So now it's Brad brain because that's what they said the test did. So that fit what Larry has been saying, that there's blood from a deer he shot and that there's parts from deers and this guy from deer and that he got grazed and bled all over the place. During jury selection, they asked if anyone could not sit for fairly for any reason. And more than a third of the jurors excused themselves. A few knew the Brad's family. One had extensive dealings with law enforcement. Two said they couldn't convict anyone of homicide. Unless the state produced a body. The rest said they decide whatever they heard in court and we get a jury. Now, September, 1992 is the trial date. Prosecution's theory, Larry thinks Brad's banging his wife. He's been hospitalized over it. He threatened Brad over it. Two days earlier, his marriage busts up because of this. He invented a story about selling his truck and camper, so Brad would come to Belgrade alone. He asked Brad to keep it a secret. Once they got to the truck stop, he got Brad into the camper, knocked him down, fired multiple shots from a standing position into a man on the floor. He drove the body back toward West Yellowstone inside the camper, called ahead to have a backhoe warmed up, buried Brad with his own excavation equipment, and then started lying and cleaned up the tar and cleaned up, did the tar, the acid, the missing carpet, the moved camper, forged letters. That's what happened. That's the story. Now, the defense's theory is, quote, there is no body. There is no crime. That's it. There's no body. There's no murder weapon. There's no eyewitness. No body, no crime. There's no confession. The state's case is circumstantial from fucking mouth to asshole. It's all the way through the whole digestive system. And circumstantial evidence has to rule out every reasonable theory of innocence. DNA is new. Labs make mistakes. The bands didn't line up on two of the probes. One brain sample never amplified. The technician's proficiency tests were shaky. PCR is so sensitive that a deer brain smeared with a little human blood tests human. The jury's not even allowed to hear statistics, even though we're the ones that made sure that they were kept out. They're not allowed to hear them. The numbers are unreliable. Yeah, he lied. But lying isn't murder. Lying and having brain on your steps isn't murder. Lying about, yeah. Yeah. He said this is why he lied. Brad had been drinking, and he was troubled, and he was struggling. And people have walked away. Yeah, people have walked away from their lives before it happens. I don't want to blow up his spot. Yeah, and then also they said that defense attorneys contend that Brad wanted to disappear and presented a statement that Brad wrote in one of his AA journals. Oh. He kept a journal for AA, and in one of them it said, maybe it's time to turn things over. Which sounds more like a. It doesn't sound like I'm running away. It doesn't sound like it sounds almost like it's a. I just need a new approach. Yeah, it turned things over like he's using it like he's, you know, turning over dirt, or he's just going to, you know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like maybe it's like that. Flip the cheeseburger. Just a euphemism. Yeah. Yeah, like a euphemism for whatever. But they testified also that the statement is consistent with turning his life over to religion, a step that AA recommends for recovering alcoholics. That's from a newspaper article, because some people were saying to me that they recommend a thing, and they tried to parse semantics on me with that. And it's like, hey, listen, you say higher power, I don't give a fuck what you say the higher power is. That's one step away from there. So that's where we are. And that's fine. Also, if that helps you, great. Don't give a fuck. Whatever you do, don't plow into my passenger fucking side at 2 o'clock in the morning, because you're a shit face. That's all I ask. If that's what you need to keep yourself from murking a family's grandfather at 2 a.m., then fine. You're not going to take out a minivan full of nuns Terrific. I love it. Yeah, my grandpa's going to make it to Christmas. Thanks. Yeah. And the prosecution said to me it would be a hopeful passage. That sounds good. So the prosecution's theory, the problem is all of this sounds great, but there's no goddamn, there's no body. That's the problem. So under state statute in a deliberate homicide case, purpose or knowledge, may be inferred from the fact that the accused committed a homicide in no circumstances of mitigation, excuse, or justification, or when that happens, when none appear. So Moore then attacks that statute later on, and we'll talk about it. But other witnesses here, they got a pastor named Steve Trotter. He said he saw Larry Moore driving a front-end loader between 4 and 4.30 p.m. on November 9th. The other employee said he took the loader out at about 1 and returned it by 3. So we don't know. We don't know. The defense says if he only had it for two hours, that's not enough time to dig a hole in a frozen ground and dispose of a body and get it back here. That's crazy. No, it's not. That's what the defense is like. It absolutely isn't. So a juror also said this. Well, there's a juror now that becomes a big problem. While all this is happening here, she works at the Gallatin County Airport. Her name is Tina Colston, and she works as a waitress at the airport. The airport cafe. Yeah. On two separate occasions during the trial, Larry Moore came into that cafe and got coffee. Why did he? Okay. Yeah, he can do that. Well, she was the only waitress on duty. She served him. She said he kept his head down. Neither of them said anything. Okay. I mean, had to say coffee at some point. Yeah, he had to tell you what he wants you to get him. So the juror told the bailiff, she said she thought it was peculiar that Moore would come all the way out to the airport to eat. The bailiff asked, did he speak to you? She said he hadn't. The bailiff told the judge. The judge does not tell the lawyers. Oh, Larry Moore later said he was there to pick up or drop off his sister or his mother who were attending the trial. The juror also had told some of her juror fellow jurors about it. One of those conversations took place at a lasagna party, which is like a sausage party, but more fun lasagna party. A lady's party. Yeah, it's a lasagna party. So I said it's more fun. Way more fun. So also they get a lab director in there questioning the credibility of all the testing. And we talked about that. There's a phone call witness here. Jurors hear testimony from a lifelong friend of Larry Moore's about receiving a phone call from a man claiming to be Brad here. A lifelong friend of Larry's? Yeah. Got a phone call from Brad. This is Steven Sigwart. He said that a man with a low raspy voice called Moore's home on November 17th, 1990 and said, quote, tell Larry this is Bubba and I'm okay. All right. And Bubba was what some of his friends called him, Brad. So that's like an inside thing. Now, Sigwart, who was staying with Moore during a hunting trip, said Moore left the house about 15 minutes before the call and returned about 15 minutes later. And immediately asked if there had been any phone calls as soon as he walked in. Come on, man. Make it a little less obvious, right? He went 15 minutes away, made a phone call, drove. That's the only thing he left for. And then as soon as he came in, he said, did I get any phone calls? You hear anything on the blower over there? It would have been great if the guy said, nope, nope, nobody called. He would have been like, really? I'll be right back. Something about 15 minutes ago? Nope, nothing. So this Sigwart worked, must have been brilliant at it, worked about eight years as a police officer in California. He said that Larry asked him a few hours earlier about tracing phone calls. So timeline is, can they like trace phone calls? Well, not really local ones, blah, blah, blah. All right. I got to run to the store for a minute. Comes back. Anybody call? On cross-examination by the defense, though, he said, Stigwart said he didn't consider the conversation unusual at the time because Moore was having problems with prank phone calls. That's what he was telling him anyway. Right. In an affidavit, Stigwart gave investigators in 1990, though, he said he thought the caller was drunk, sick, or trying to disguise his voice. At the time, he also told investigators that there was, quote, a pretty good possibility that it was Larry Moore's voice. Once he gets to trial, he kind of forgot about all that shit. But, yeah. You know, got to think about it. You know something, pray tell. Something don't sit right with me. Just saying. So Larry testifies. He's going to try to push this bad boy over the top. He tells the jury he didn't kill Brad. Yeah. He explains he initially lied about what happened because Brad might want to come back and take that undersheriff job he applied for. Right. And the incident in the camper, being drunk. And suicidal might kind of disqualify you. That might fuck it up, man. Yeah. So he said also he lied. He just wanted to protect his friend's career prospects. And he also said the blood in the camper, it was from a deer. Period. He said that, you know, at various times, it's a deer. So now it's been a rat, a mouse, a friend, a deer. It's been a lot of things, this blood. Larry, why did you come back with a camper you were to sell and your friend didn't? Yeah. You came back with a truck and a camper. You're supposed to have neither, but no friend, which you were supposed to have. Larry testified he returned to his camper, found Brad holding a handgun, said that he was a fellow recovering alcoholic. He seemed drunk and talked about whether he should kill himself. I tackled him, grabbed his hand, the gun discharged, grazing him in the side of the head. When he got to the nearby truck stop to get water to clean the wound, he left and hasn't been seen since. Wow. And that's that. He told the police, by the way, they said they have accounted for, because they ask him this, they go, the police have accounted for. all of your guns, and he's a hunter and a Montana guy, except this.357 you've told us about. Where is it? Where's that one? He said, well, I traded the gun in an out-of-state gun show. That's why. And that was like four years ago. That was well before Brad disappeared. I was shooting holes in my shit in 87. So right after that. So that gun's been gone for years. That gun was never anywhere near Brad. It's a different gun. Well, how the fuck did Brad, you see what I'm saying? This doesn't make sense. How did Brad shoot holes in the wall, floors like that? So the closings here, the prosecutors, they set up a two-by-nine-foot taped-off area to recreate the space. Yeah. A pickup truck bed. Two-by-nine because you've got the refrigerator on one side, the dinette on the other, and then the fucking bed up top. Yeah, it's a very small area. Totally. So they also used a step taken from the camper, which the tiny piece of brain was found, Now, after the one prosecutor tackled the other, which must have been hilarious to watch, these two guys in suits tackling each other on the floor of a courtroom, they said that after Brown tackled Murphy, Murphy had to scoot down about one and a half feet to get his head under the step and in the position Moore said that Brad was in when the gun fired. In the closing statement, Murphy said that Moore went to the airport with the idea that contacting that juror would be grounds for a new trial. if he was convicted. And he said he was hedging his bets for a mistrial. Yep, there's lots of other restaurants in Gallatin County where he could have gotten a cup of coffee. They said, quote, Again, there is only one person responsible for why we are here spending this time. That's the defendant. Cannot now come in and complain about the situation he created. So the verdict comes in here. Nine women and three men. They go into a second day of deliberations. It's about 14 hours of deliberation here. Now, just before these deliberations, the same juror from the coffee shop incident told the other jurors she's been having a bad dream about Larry Moore. She said that one said that Mrs. Ms. Colston dreamed that we all found Larry guilty and he had a gun and he shot his defense attorney and the defense attorney and the co-counsel grabbed her out of the, grabbed Colston out of the jury box and ran off with her. Oh, he shot to shot his lawyers and kidnapped the juror. Wood forest bride. Here it comes again. It's have forest loaded with forest brides. I believe the rule of Montana. If you can get to your camp with her, she is your forest bride. It's legal at that point. Also, there's deliberation fun. There's one of the jurors told the other jurors that he, he knows a lot about guns and said that a three 57 could not be fired in a rapid succession. According to the defense that pushed the jury to reject Moore's count of a struggle over the gun with multiple holes, one accidental discharge and all that kind of shit. So the verdict comes in 14 hours of deliberation. They find him guilty of deliberate homicide. Yeah. So he maintains his innocence says it's horrifying. This is the first conviction in Montana using DNA. Because a hillbilly said there's no way for him to rapid fire, make a whole bunch of holes on, on like a struggle. Yeah. On a struggle. And that, and the fact that they must've believed the DNA shit's real. They had to have, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. They would have said it's too, too, too much. That's when the weird juror shit comes out. Yeah. And so that becomes a big deal. So then there's a motion for a new trial before sentencing. A juror told the other, I guess one of the jurors said that that Colston lady, that juror said that she thought that Larry Moore was stalking her. So that was a big deal. She says, she didn't say that. She said, I just felt, I just said that he was there and made me feel uncomfortable. So that goes back and forth. The one guy, the one jury juror said though, no, she's, she was a little bit excited and added a, I don't know why or whatever. I don't know how she felt, but she seemed that way. So, anyway, they get the juror in there and they say, do you recall telling another juror in his presence at a lasagna party that Larry Moore was stalking you or watching you? And she said, I did not say that. They said, did you express concern regarding your belief that you were being watched by Larry Moore? She said, no. They said, did you express that concern to the other jurors? She said, just that he was there and made me feel uncomfortable. And they said, and you told two different groups of jurors during the trial when they were sitting as active jurors. In this case that he was watching you. Isn't that correct? She said, I didn't say he was watching me. I told them about the incident at the airport. They said, and you indicated by your tone of voice and your expressions and by your gestures that you felt threatened by him. Isn't that true? And she said, no. And they said, as a matter of fact, did you feel threatened or you did feel threatened? Didn't you? And she said, I did not. What the fuck? So the other jurors testify. She never used the word stalking technically and all, this type of shit. Also the three 57 juror. They said, that's fine. Cause jurors are supposed to bring life experiences into the room. That's the point. That's why you don't get like you unwrap somebody's saran wrap and put them in a jury. They have to have some experience. Also, there was mourning garb. People, spectators wore black garbs and, and black ribbons into the room. Cause you're not allowed to do this. Most decent judges when like victims, families all try to come in the same t-shirt or wear things and all that. Shit. And then like the, the prosecutors will have like a pin on for, you can't allow that shit. You can't allow that shit. That really affects jurors over the course of weeks. It really does. So everybody's got to stay on the up. I hate when they let people do that, have some justice for so-and-so. Yeah, that's great. But you're really kind of, you know, screwing the jury here with that. That's kind of fucked up. They look at you and this family and your t-shirts and they think, well, they can't let you down. We have a guy right there. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's just, so it just cover it up when you go in the courtroom as well. So anyway, that's what they said. They subpoenaed everybody. None of the jurors were aware of the black ribbon worn briefly by Brad's wife. They said, we didn't even see it. We have no idea what you're talking about. Sentencing comes around. Prosecutors recommend that more be sentenced to a hundred and ten years in prison with no parole. Interesting. Buck 10, no parole. Yeah. That's it. They said, unless he admits to killing Brad and shows where he, exposed to the body that's never been found. Unless we get that, he should never get out. Huh? They said it's warranted because of his denial, despite evidence of the brain tissue and everything else. They said the defendant's crime continues as he sits before this court today. We still don't have a body. If he shows remorse, delivers the remains of Brad Brisbane to the Brisbane family, then the court should take a look at that. And otherwise the court quote must act harshly. The judge says that the maximum I can give is 110 years without, without parole. I've received numerous letters about this case and I plan to read all these letters before making a decision. They're all from Larry. They're all from Larry, all in different handwriting from the same typewriter. So he is sentenced to you, sir. By the way, he asked for, please don't sentence me to all this time. Give me a chance to prove myself. What is that? Larry says, I don't know. Give me parole. The judge says, you, sir may fuck off 60 years in prison. Okay. 60. That's awful. He light it's, it's getting lighter. Yeah. He also denies the prosecution's request to classify more as a dangerous offender, which cuts the time in half that he must serve before becoming eligible for parole. Okay. The prosecutor said the ruling is the first time in recent history in Montana that a defendant convicted of deliberate homicide was not defined as a dangerous criminal. Wow. He, he, with, with his time served, already he could be released in as few as 10 to 12 years. He could get my Christ under the good time law at the time offenses committed before 1997, a 60 year sentence would be cut to 30 with good behavior and the math would control it. So it would get down from there. So he appeals in 94 and a bunch of different, we don't have time to go into all of them. It's all based on the DNA, basically all the shit he already brought up. He's appealing based on that. It's not, you know, it's denied. Um, he's considered a model inmate after that. He works his way down to minimum security. He gets a job answering phones for a travel company while in jail. He became secretary treasurer of the prison's addictive disease study program. He was appointed to the inmate council advisory committee, a body created by the warden, Mickey Gamble, which I'm going to tell you some good shit about him. Don't have enough time to tell you the whole story, but look up warden, Mickey Gamble, uh, dinner with, with murderer. Just look that up anywhere. It's amazing. Okay. So, um, now the council had a rule to sit on it. An inmate had to have admitted his crime. Larry has not admitted his crime, but they still let him on the council anyway. Now there's letters to the editor saying what a piece of shit he is. We don't have time for that. Uh, the dinner with the warden thing. It comes out in 1994 that warden Mickey Gamble took a convicted murderer and two other inmates out to dinner. Out to red, - Lobster. Out of the prison. Endless shrimp, Jimmy. Fucking three ways. All three. Yeah. As many biscuits as they wanted. As many Cheddar Bays as they could fucking stuff into their face. That's right. Wow. Now, at the time, the reporting identifies Moore as the murderer. But it turns out it was not Moore who he took out. Moore never got taken out. It was actually three female fucking inmates he took out to dinner. And he's accused of being in love with one of them. Warning. It's fucking amazing. Wow. It's wild, dude. They go through the whole thing. Here's a headline. Also at the table, a throat slasher and a bail jumper. Convicted murderer Becky Richards was not the only prisoner treated to dinner in Billings by the State Corrections Administrator. The outing also included two Helena women, one a convicted throat slasher, the other a bailer. Very nice. Altogether, Becky Richards, convicted in 1993 of shooting her husband to death, also convicted of 49 counts of theft, fraud, and deceptive practices in her dealings with her husband's business. Renee Doyron, convicted of attempted, mitigated, deliberate homicide for slashing another woman's throat in a fit of drunken jealousy. Oh, cut your fucking throat, and she did it. Wow. And then Deborah Evans. Deborah Evans, who was convicted of felony theft and bail jumping and all of that shit. Is Richardson the one he's in love with? Well, he denies that he's in love with Richards. That's the one where he says, what is it here? I got a quote for it. Gamble denies having romance with Richards. Quote, I like her as a person. I appreciate her skills as a person, but there's nothing of a romantic nature. We have a mutually respectful relationship. So I took her to Red Lobster? If you have to say that about a person. If you're a prisoner, you've already lost the argument, first of all. There's so much to this case, too. Look this up. It's just gold. So anyway, he gets fired, this guy. Gamble gets fired, and Moore's life turns completely different. He's reclassified, moved to a more secure area. All his privileges are gone. He's treated like a murderer. Oh, wow. Yeah, they said Moore's life was pretty easy before then, but when Gamble left, it was reclassified and put in a secure area. Then. He's got a new cellmate named Gregory Craig Carpenter, who's serving a 34-year sentence for rape conviction. Basically, they make a device. It's an alarm clock with a ringer, a 9-volt battery, wiring, a tube of toothpaste, match heads, a bomb-looking device. We don't know if it would have worked or not, but what they did is they hid it under the liner of their cell's garbage can, and then they ended up planting it in the ceiling tile next to, the warden's office. Then they contacted the guards and said, we know of a plot somebody's got to try to blow up the warden. You should check in the ceiling tiles. They, of course, know it's these two fucking dipshits who did it. They're trying to Avon Barksdale themselves out of this. Trying to get themselves a cushy situation by being rats about something that wasn't even happening. I know where the hot shots came from, they're saying. And they said, no, no, it came from you, you fucking dummies. So they get in trouble again. And Moore is moved to a maximum security unit. There, he's beaten so badly, he needs reconstructive surgery on his face. Holy shit. Because he's a dickhead. He would never name his attackers, though. He claimed he fell off a chin-up bar. So he gets prison. So then he gets federal charges for both people for the bomb-making. Then he makes a deal. He says, tell you what, dismiss all the bomb shit, and I'll tell you where Brad is. Really? And they say, okay. And he makes a full confession. He killed Brad, draws them a map, tells them where Brad is, tells them where the gun is, as a matter of fact, too. They get him out there. For this, prosecutors are not allowed to ever oppose his parole. They can't show up to say he's a piece of shit at his parole hearings. They dismiss his bomb charges, and he preserves his good time credits that he would have lost for the bomb shit. He's going to get out. Oh, five years of all of this type of shit. It ends up, it's one of the gravel pits they were looking at is where they find Brad. Absolutely. They dug his body up from a pit nine miles northwest of Yellowstone, dug up the gun at Greek Creek Campground, ten miles north of Big Sky. Unbelievable. The body came out of the ground. They said Moore returned pale and sat in the vehicle. He turned and went back because they brought him out for that. They said, The body was found at the edge of a gravel pit within a few feet of where searchers had looked in 1990. Already on track. They said Moore had done some work there. The gun was in a plastic bag buried, and they said, It really wasn't buried very deep either. It probably is in pretty good shape, too. Yep. 357 revolver. Relatives identify Brad through his jewelry, but science also identifies him as that. So that's what happens. They find Brad. They find Brad, and there he is. By the way, he says that they breached the deal, and they're treating him like shit in prison. He said, Things have been real bad for me. Everyone tells me I should be on the low side, but the warden has a vendetta against me. No, he's just not in love with another gal. Yeah. It's a different guy. So then he asked to be transferred out of state. They deny it, calling him a security risks. But then, according to Oregon officials, he is transferred to Oregon State Penitentiary System. Anyway, and that's where he will spend his time. In November 96, by the way, they convict his partner in the bomb bullshit, and he gets a bunch of fucking time for that shit. I think he got 20 years. I'll bet that's the guy that kicked his ass then. How dare you do this to me? Or one of his friends. Yeah. One of his friends. Yeah. So because he's been designated non-dangerous and because of his good time, he is eligible for parole in 2000. Wow. They say, get the fuck back in there. No. 2000. 2002. Same shit. He's eligible every two years. There's a TV crew. He finally tells forensic files that he did this. Really? Senior producer Kelly Martin told the Chronicle about working with Renee Brisbane, and they said, It turns out she knew exactly what we were looking for, and about the case as a whole, we can't make this stuff up because they were looking for this. 2009, Moore appears at a hearing there. The board refuses to release him based on strong opposition from the victim's family and law enforcement, because law enforcement can still say no, but the prosecutor isn't allowed to. And his failure to accept responsibility. 2015, he tells the board that he has all his ducks in a row now to be a productive citizen, and he calls what he did to Brad, quote, a cowardly act. Remorse is a big part of my life. Now he's using the words he needs to use. He needs to use. Brad's daughter says, What happened could have been yesterday for us. Everything we go through every single day reminds us of our dad. There's only one honorable and correct thing in our eyes for the board to do. Please don't parole him. Larry said, or Larry Moore's son says, I understand what they're going through because I lost my dad 24 years ago, too. Let me out, but I can have my dad back. Yeah. A parole board member said, In 40 years of law enforcement, I've never known anyone to hold something that close that was that severe. One said he is probably one of the more sophisticated intellectual sociopaths I've dealt with in my tenure in the correction system. Yeah. Let's keep in mind that he did this because he thought the man was sleeping with his wife. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Board denies him unanimously. Problem is his next reviews in five years. It's 2020 and his sentence expires in 2023. So this is their last chance to parole him and have him under. Supervision. Yeah. So this time and it's a it's a video. It's a COVID fucking parole hearing. So at this point, they three to nothing. The the the panel votes to grant him parole. Okay. He's on the street. He's still out there still. They said it's important. The inmates have some period of supervision once they're released. And that's that's why they released him because they didn't want him to not be on parole. Free man. Yeah. So as of January 2023, free and clear. Somewhere wandering around America doing whatever he wants. Somewhere between Oregon and Montana or further. Or whoever knows who the fuck knows here. Brad, on the other hand, is still buried in Fur Ridge Cemetery in West Yellowstone. Wow. And his his gravestone reads. We love you, daddy. Meanwhile, this guy's doing whatever the shot him in the head because he was jealous like a fucking asshole. So there you go, everybody. That is Montana. Some crazy shit going on up there quickly because there's a long show. Just a few feet, James, and they'd have put him away forever. They would have been right there. No one would have even doubted it. Here it is. It's on a gravel pit that he has access to. Just a few feet. They'd have put him away forever. So if you enjoyed this story, get on whatever app you're listening to. Give us five stars because God damn it. It helps a lot. And we don't know why. 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New ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. This week, crime in sports and other unrelated old-timey news. Craziest articles we can find from crazy old-timey shit. Small town murder, the Netflix documentary Widower Till Death Do Us Part. He's a dude who's got six wives and four, well, he has six wives and four, he's had six wives over time. Four of them are dead. Awesome. Multiple from violence. Unless you're 150, that math doesn't math. So he's got problems. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of this material. Please come and do it. And then in addition to that, you get everything we put out. Crime in sports, your stupid opinions, all the small town murders, all ad-free. Ad-free, baby. Then you also get a shout-out at the end of the show, which is right goddamn now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who have no brain or brain matter anywhere in their campers. Hit me with them right fucking now. There's an executive producer, Curtis, in Newport, Vermont. Gary Howard is in Garland, Texas. Larry Butterfest is the newest NCAA umpire, James. Fuck yeah, Larry. Good job, brother. He loves that umpiring. Good for him. He likes to be yelled at for no reason, the poor guy. My old man. He's passionate. I love that guy. And Gary, too. What's up, Gary? My very old man who didn't follow the news in their dreams. Absolutely. Happy hour in his show-winning truck in Louisiana. He got a new truck. It's called The Main Squeeze. It's yellow. It's like a lemon. Yeah, congrats. It's a very cool truck. It won the show in Louisiana. Jordan Bennett in Jolly Old England. And her and Simon. Yeah, tell Simon we said hello, Jordan. We love you guys. And Thomas Woodward Sr. has given it to us both ways. Whoa, all three, huh? Giving us all three. Thanks, brother. We appreciate you. He's over in Medford. Thomas Woodward Sr. Woodward from Medford. Thank you. Peyton Meadows. Other producers this week. Peyton Meadows, Manj Sanja. Sangha. We like that guy. He patched up that relationship with his wife and now can't make it to our Boston show. He wanted to make sure we knew that. Bring her along, damn it. Kylie Martinez for Trip Briegman. Okay, thank you. Justice for him. Oh, great. That's what it is. Oh, well. I don't want to get into it. It's dirty and gross and we're already I don't know what happened. It's terrible. Exact Tax Solutions. Thank you. Janice Hill and Eddie Fox. Thank you guys so much. Megan Clock. Justin Sproles. Catherine Milan. Brian Soder. Cynthia or Syntha. It said Syntha Burgoyne. I can't imagine somebody misspelled their own first name, right? I hope not. Maybe it cuts it off or I don't know. No, it doesn't. Who knows? Just chop an I out of the middle of your fucking name. Who knows? I think somebody missed an I. Brittany Bilt. Nope, that's Bullet. Amber Werner. Michael Mitchell. Gabby Brolt. Brolt. Kyle Pope. Bethany Appel. Apple, maybe. Abner with no last name. Liz with no last name. Bharath Kumar. Yangala. Kira Hamill. Michelle-less. They are Michelle-less. They have no Michelle. If you're Michelle-full, Michelle-less Perry could use that. She could use one. Cecilia Crowe. Paul Gibson. Roy and Vicky Ratzlaff. Ratzlaff. Lynn Johnson. Sandy Henderson. Stephanie Stennis. Wendy Lee. Christy Girl, I think. It's like a license plate, James. There's no vowels. Why would you do this to me? That's tough. Blake Harris. Mary Taylor. Louise. Nope, that's Lewis. Lewis Kiefer. Kate Daniels. Sarah Lynn Redding. Katie with no last name. Michelle Fulker. Kirsten. Nicole Williams. Nikki Barton. All right. Yeah. I can't read. David T. Doug with no last name. Laura James. Eva Mann. Gio with no last name. Kylie with no last name. Carly Brown. Kendall with no last name. Gabriella with one L. Joseph. Nope, that's Joshua Hunt. Jolene Smith. Maja. Maha. Maja. Siljack. Sil. What is that? Siljack. So that's Maha. M-A-J-A. Is that Maja? Maja. I'm not sure. Maja. Amy with no last name. Kenetha. Kenetha. That's the female Kenneth, James. Kenetha. Kenetha. Heavens. I've never heard that name before. Awesome. It might be Kenetha. It's probably Kenetha, right? I don't know. I haven't heard it before, but good for you. Nita with no last name. Emily Reed. Isaac Strickland. Taylor Anderson. Kay Lynn. Assaf. Jessica Mitchell. David Appear. Oh, boy. Pierre Ades. Sarah Adkins. Anthony with no last name. Matt Happel. Happel, perhaps. Mexican pervert. Truck driver. Tommy Vishnicka. Vishnocknikella. Oh. I think he's fucking with me. Maybe. A Mexican guy named Vishnicka. Fuck you, Tommy. Just want to give you a long last name. Morty with no last name. Katie Justice. Not a sea otter. Tabitha Grover. Moose with no last name. Monica Alm. Stacey King. I hope it's that one. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, the ex-center for the Bulls there. That'd be great. Is he a center or a power forward? I think he's a center, Stacey, I thought. And the Trailblazers, too, I think. I don't know. Misty Adams. Marin with no last name. Charlie with no last name. Watch Out with no last name. That's just two words. Kelly with no last name. Sean Hoffman. Victor Ortiz. Is that one, too? That's a famous name. There it is. It's been around for a while, yeah. Future Sight. Ziti likes a nice lady. Noah Deo. Matt Lilly. Mike Law. Michaela Moe. Beth Braun. Angelique Fouché. Fouch. Muff with no last name. Just the Muff, James. Just the Muff. Mary Kay Porter. Is that Mary Kay's last name? The lady that gives out all the Cadillacs with her last name? What the fuck should I know? I don't know. You might be getting Mary Kay money. Taylor. Nope, that's Morgan Taylor. Frankie Hawkins. Boo-gee. Dan Hill Burton. Matt Wright. Austin Schmalz. Alexander Pinot. Pinot. Megan Ehrlich. CeCe the Dundalkian. Oh. Of the Dundalkians, James. Well, that's where I expected them to be from. Otherwise, I'd be very disappointed. Cindy Dieterich. Wow. Rochelle Arsenault. Mike Shingler and everybody that patrons this show. You guys are the best. Thank you. Thank you, everybody, so much. God damn it. We appreciate all that you do every damn day and every week. Thank you for doing that for us. Thank you for hanging. You want to find us on social media or find any other info, shut up and give me murder.com is the place to do it. Come out. Come hang out with us. Keep coming back. Come see a live show. It's goddamn fun. Thank you to everybody also. People that have only seen us on Netflix coming out to live shows. Thank you. That's really cool. But keep coming back next week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye.