MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Alyssa Romine-Olson

Hi crime junkies. I'm your host Ashley Flowers and I'm Brits and guess what Gilbert PD we're bad. We saw the responses all you crime junkies had to our episodes out of Gilbert Arizona Rachel Hansen Nick Cordova Laura Sweetman and we heard your call to tell more of their cases the lesser known ones the ones that you really need to dig into to get to the bottom of well little did you know we were all ready waste deep and we're about to fill you in the case I have for you today is one that has been spun every which way by the police and the media and that's meant that for over 10 years one family has been forced to bury their grief but today we're telling you the real story of a woman who was found floating naked and face down in the pond of a local nature preserve in 2016 and the headline is don't believe the headlines this is the story of Alyssa Romain Olsen it's June 10th 2016 when Alyssa Romain Olsen's body is found floating in a pond at the riparian preserve in Gilbert Arizona and almost as quickly as she is removed from the water authorities start crafting a story one about a 30 year old woman who was depressed who was suffering due to recent health problems who just separated from her husband of nearly four years and moved back in with her parents in local news articles the word is never used but to Alyssa's family and friends the Gilbert community the insinuation is clear whatever happened to Alyssa she did it to herself so no foul play involved no threat to the public and therefore those who heard the story in the local community felt no need to put pressure on the Gilbert police department to rush their death investigation in all honesty when our reporter Nicole started looking into this case that was her first impression too she actually called me from Arizona and she was like hey you know like based on what I'm seeing what's out there like I'm not really sure that there's a mystery here and she was like so I know I told you we might cover this but like I don't I don't think so but then we got the case file and that combined with conversations that we've had with Alyssa's family and friends or anyone she went to church with and the media story began to crumble under its own weight now to unravel this threat we have to start at the beginning so that you can understand who Alyssa was before her body was pulled from that pond and the days weeks and months leading up to that moment so Alyssa was one of 12 children in the Romain household and her parents only biological daughter according to her younger sister Chelsea she had a quiet way of connecting with people she was innately nurturing regularly babysitting younger siblings and neighborhood kids but she wasn't someone who constantly sought the spotlight Alyssa was just as content spending time on her own journaling or listening to music in her room now importantly religion was always a part of Alyssa's life she grew up in a non-denominational Christian family but in her late 20s Alyssa underwent a kind of spiritual awakening and her faith became the guiding force in nearly every aspect of her life she joined a new church and threw herself into a level of religious devotion that even her family hadn't practiced like even for the two of us who grew up in like a borderline evangelical world like Alyssa was next level she relied on God to tell her like even what clothes to wear or what to eat she didn't like material things and she rid herself of most of her personal belongings so her life became about her religion and evangelizing and it was around this time which would have been like mid 2012 that Alyssa met her future husband Braden at the International House of Prayer the two were immediately drawn to each other they had similar beliefs and specifically valued an evangelical form of Christianity and their relationship moved really fast like within a couple of months Chelsea told us that the couple went on a road trip together and then they got back and boom Alyssa told her family that Jesus wanted her to marry Braden and they had a wedding that winter and they were cool with that well her family wasn't like against it like Braden seemed nice enough Alyssa seemed happy but the truth was they really didn't even know Braden I mean the siblings that we spoke to said that he was very outgoing and a people person too like the max but they didn't really get to spend much time with them partly because the relationship progressed so quickly but also because after getting married Alyssa and Braden began to live a nomadic life they were traveling around the country together to preach and minister to anyone who would listen did they work they didn't right like so they didn't need much and for around three years the two of them kind of just couch served or crashed with friends and Alyssa's parents would help them out sometimes financially and by all accounts they were attached to the hip I mean like they shared social media accounts they shared a cell phone which they rarely even answered and speaking to a lot of people who knew Alyssa it seems like she kind of distanced herself from the rest of her relationships like her whole world became about her husband and her faith which kept becoming more and more radical and they likely would have continued down this path but something happened that altered it around January of 2016 that's when Alyssa suffered an ectopic pregnancy and had to be hospitalized because of significant blood loss that medical event forced her to move back to Gilbert to live with her parents so she could have like a home base to rest and to recover Braden had moved back to Arizona with her initially but two months in they decided to separate because of her pregnancy no not because of her pregnancy actually the very thing that brought them together is what made them separate their intense commitment to their faith that became the primary reason like the thing that drove them apart like as much as he wanted to Braden said that he struggled to live up to the strict religious standards which Alyssa held so dear he said that he couldn't follow the Lord's ways as closely as elicited like what does that mean like how for him it was like watching porn thinking about other women wanting to drink and smoke wanting material things like a house and a job so that he could pay for set house so the pair decided to separate and Braden moved back to Washington to live with his mom now this is all around April of 2016 now without Braden Alyssa's life honestly didn't change much she was a woman of routine and she didn't stray from it according to her parents every morning bright and early she woke up had her coffee drove to the public library in her dad's car walked through this nature preserve area right behind the library called the rightarian and she would find a spot to journal and read her bible she would be there a while like like seven a.m. to noon every single day like clockwork except on June 9th 2016 on this day Alyssa leaves for the rightarian in the morning but then the clock stops she never came home not at noon or by seven which is when her parents start to get worried I mean they try calling her but it's going straight to voicemail and we know that Alyssa is pretty unplugged so like you know this isn't necessarily weird immediately but when 10 p.m. rolls around and there is still no word from her Alyssa's parents Barbara and Ed they decide to drive over to the library themselves and right away they find Ed's blue 2002 Dodge caravan parked in the lot it's locked so Ed opens it up with his spare key but nothing is a miss which does really nothing to calm them in fact when they call another daughter of theirs Michelle who comes rushing over in her pajamas her first thought is that Alyssa must have been kidnapped so not knowing what else to do her and her parents just start running through the rightarian in the dark screaming Alyssa's name continuing to call the phone that she is an answering and how big is this area like this park huge so it's a 110 acres with seven different ponds along like hiking trails and a fishing lake so Alyssa's family quickly realizes that they might be in over their heads and that's when Ed calls the police it's Gilbert PD who takes the report and according to Michelle they sort of like cordon off some entrances of the park but they don't really start searching right away I don't know if it's because it's too dark or what the reasoning is but it isn't until the next day that a real search ensues they contact hospitals churches jails they search her room at home to see if maybe she left anything behind saying where she might be going. She didn't obviously. And when they ping her phone via T-Mobile, they see that it's been turned off since 10 a.m. the day of her disappearance, which means they can't get a location or apparently even like a location history. Well, and now they're a full day behind. Right. So their best bet is just to put all their resources into searching the preserve and the area around the library. Now, the public library has a surveillance camera facing the south parking lot where Alyssa parked her dad's car. But according to the police file, the specific spot that Alyssa parked in is of course out of view. And the park itself has no cameras. So investigators have to rely on their own searches of the area to try and understand how Alyssa's last movements may have played out. They bring in tracking dogs, they bring in helicopters with thermal imaging. And at 2.42 p.m., the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office air unit finds her. And her body is sort of hidden by brush. But from an aerial view, there is no mistaking what they're looking at. It is a nude body floating face down in one of the ponds. And actually, well, we know Alyssa was found in a pond. I'm honestly more inclined to call the exact spot that she was in like a puddle. Like she must be on the water's edge or something because according to the file, the water next to her left ankle was 5.5 inches deep. And next to her right ankle, it wasn't even like an inch. She's naked though. Yeah. And her clothing, by the way, like all of her belongings actually, like nothing is around her. It's not there. It's not in her car. Nothing. So while they work to remove Alyssa's body from the preserve and send it for autopsy, they go looking for her things, right? Like where are her clothes? Now, even just her clothes? Where's her journal? Where's her cell phone? Where's her keys? None of those things are ever found. What is found in and around this area are other clothes, some in the dumpster of the library parking lot, some under nearby bushes. There's one sock that they find in the pond. But they end up DNA testing all of this and none of it is Alyssa's. And interestingly, they also find a full latex glove on a dirt path. And there's something else that seems to suggest Alyssa wasn't alone out there when she died. In the mud, there is this set of footprints and a set of prints that show a shoe tread. So now the question is, if someone else was out there, who? And are they still out there? Right. Gilbert PD has an important opportunity here to use the media and the Gilbert community to their advantage, like to put out a press release to canvas for people who had been in or near the park, anyone who had seen or heard anything. But you've probably figured out by now, that is not what is about to happen. When Gilbert PD first makes any kind of statement to the local community via the press, they're not pushing out critical information or warning the public of a possible threat. Rather, the story is spun up for the media. Twisted in such a way to assure the Gilbert community that there is nothing to worry about at all. I mean, if we aren't going to call this felt play, what are we doing here? I think that they're leaning heavily on the autopsy report to justify this stance, which when that's done says that Alyssa's cause and manner of death are both undetermined. In heart report, the medical examiner writes, therefore, because it is unknown how or exactly when the decedent came to be faced down within the water. And because there are no gross anatomic abnormalities potentially causing or related to death, it is my opinion that Alyssa Nicole Olson, a 30 year old Caucasian female, died as a result of undetermined. Wait, was there no water in her lungs? No, none. Are we supposed to accept that people in Gilbert just keep dying without explanation? I know. Now, I get why the Emmy might have ruled undetermined, like her toxicology was totally plain, no surprise there. And there were no lethal signs of trauma, just some like post-mortem abrasions along her right side, which can be caused by a number of like inconsequential things like contact with debris in the water or animal activity. But also like intentional post-mortem actions like moving or dragging a body. Right. And real quick, interesting tidbit, there is a note about mud being on Alyssa's hands and a significant amount of it being like caked onto her toes and the balls of her feet. Which kind of tracks because there's like footprints right and the shoe prints. But I don't know if they're ever able to determine if those are her prints or not because if they did any comparison, it might be in one of the heavily redacted areas of the case file. Like the section of her autopsy labeled evidence. Oh, the other heavily redacted area is where they talk about the sexual assault kit that they did at the autopsy. In the file, it says the DNA profile from it matched Alyssa's profile. So like no entry was made into CODIS. But then right after that, there is a line that says scientific lab report continued. Great. Would love to read it. Yeah. Except the text is all redacted. Which I mean to me if all the DNA matched Alyssa, why would you need to redact anything? And what's even more interesting is that her sister Chelsea told us that the family was told by police that they would never know on the question of sexual assault because Alyssa's body was found in water, which would have washed away any evidence. But the water wasn't it just by her ankles? I mean, I guess that's what it was like where she was found. But I mean, we don't know if her body was moved around at all in the pond. Plus like if it did right, if it was like completely washed away evidence, she's in the water for so long. What are we redacting? They were still redacting about the document. What's going on? And you know while we're on this, like I can also see the fingernail clippings hers were tested. Those results are redacted too. So with all of this, what's coming into view is the possibility that Alyssa might have been met with foul play in the park. And from the file, I know that Gilbert PD saw that too. In it, investigators routinely call the area where Alyssa was found a crime scene. They write that they believe, quote, someone did cause Alyssa's death. And that quote, there were things associated with the way Alyssa was found that may indicate another person was involved. So why won't they tell the public that? That's what I don't know. Like I get not giving away case details broadly. And it's not like they're making things up. They're not straight up lying to the public, but it's more like they're really not giving any proper context. What is getting published are just stories where all anyone can talk about is Alyssa's depression. When what health problems and her recent move back home. And all of that, when they read it, feels like a gut punch to Alyssa's family who are already in a state of shock and confusion. Because like one minute they do, they have police asking them for a list of people that they like think they should be looking into. And then the next minute, they're reading about her death in the paper like it's a suicide. Were reporters getting suicide from police? Ladies, I'm saying they're not getting the word suicide. No, like the police can't say that that would be a straight up lie. It is undetermined. But after reading the news, Michelle starts to like put something together. And she remembers that in her family's initial conversation with police, it felt like they were trying to steer the conversation in a specific direction. Asking if Alyssa was depressed, like what she said, did she eat enough? And if you read the police reports, you'll see that they spend an outsized amount of time explaining that Alyssa had been keeping to herself. She'd barely eaten in the last few days and she was depressed. But what they neglected to include was that Alyssa was naturally an introverted person that she never had a voracious appetite. And she had recently not been as hungry because she was recovering from her ectopic pregnancy. Which Brayden said she had prayed over and made peace with. And more than anything, core to Alyssa's religious belief was that suicide was wrong. Forget the fact that her family, who had just seen her said that she was happy and not suicidal, never even talked about suicide. All of that is true, but she had talked about others who committed the act and she said that those weren't true believers. One of Alyssa's good friends Blake told us that there was "literally almost a zero percent chance" that Alyssa would take her own life, just like based on her religious values. He said it would go against her whole self. And none of that that I just told you made it into the articles about Alyssa. Did no reporters reach out to Alyssa's family themselves to get - Ready of this context? - It's worse than that. The media did try to contact the Romans early on. The family turned them away. Not because they didn't want to speak though. According to Chelsea, investigators specifically told them not to talk to anyone about anything, especially the media. They say that everything about the case is confidential and if anyone finds anything out, it could compromise the investigation. And so even feeling like knocked down, confused. At this point, the Romans are still putting their full trust in police. Even as they are reading the stuff that is so blatantly not their view of their Alyssa. And so they do as they're told. They don't go to the media and they don't try to correct the reports that they feel are painting a false and extremely hurtful picture. They sit back and hope that this is all part of a bigger plan. But the bigger plan takes them by complete shock. 'Cause police don't seem to focus heavily on any of the people that the Roman family told them to look into. In fact, investigators start looking at someone that most of the family wasn't suspicious of. For no other reason, it seems, then the fact that he was Alyssa's husband of nearly four years. And Braden and Alyssa had recently decided to separate and you always look at the husband first, right? Before we get into Braden's interviews with police, I wanna go back to the day that Alyssa was reported missing, which is June 9th. Both the police and Alyssa's mom, Barbara, tried calling Braden to alert him. Both calls went to voicemail. Then her dad Ed looked up Alyssa's cell phone activity on their shared account and found that Alyssa and Braden had spoken over the phone the night before she disappeared for around two hours, which just made him want to reach Braden even more. So Ed decided to call the family that Braden was staying with. The family, like not his, he wasn't, wasn't he living with his mom? Also according to the police report, he was when he first moved back to Washington, but they had a falling out over the extent of his religious beliefs, which ended in him storming out. So he ended up calling this close family friend that he'd stayed with before, this lady named Wendy Phillips and asked if he could stay with her and her family. - And still in Washington. - Yeah, this is just like an hour away from his mom's place, but in Washington. So Braden told Wendy that he would been staying with his mom but that he, quote, "determined that his mom was Satan." So I don't know if she felt for him or what, but Wendy and her husband Timothy agreed to take him in. And Braden joined them and their children, James and Samantha, in Toledo, Washington. Now our reporter Nicole spoke with both kids, James and Samantha. And they described Braden as almost like a brother to them. He would go to their family late days at barbecues and when he married Alyssa, he would bring her around to, and they adored her. Samantha and Alyssa actually ended up becoming good friends themselves. But when Braden came to live with the Phillips in 2016, after his separation, Samantha said that he seemed to be in this like really weird headspace. She said that Braden would talk constantly about how much he loved Alyssa and how heartbroken he was, but there seemed to be something else just like under the surface. He would say that the separation was God's will. And obviously something must not be right with Alyssa because God pulled him away from her. Samantha said it actually made Braden an uncomfortable person to be around. Like she couldn't quite put her finger on it, but she just got this unsettled feeling in her gut that something was off. Which brings me back to the night that Alyssa was reported missing. So Alyssa's family was like desperately trying to get a hold of Braden. They finally reached the Phillips and they're like, sorry, Braden's asleep. But the romines were like, okay, yeah, but this is really important. Please just tell him to like listen to the voicemails we left him, like he'll understand and he'll want to call us back. So Wendy, like she goes to get Braden, who is sleeping. She has him like listen to the voicemail messages that Barbara and the police officer had left. And per her account in the police file, Braden apparently showed no visible emotion while listening to the voicemails. And after they finished, he handed the phone back to one of the Phillips and said, thank you. And went back to bed. What? There's some James said that Braden just acted like he was any other day. And he remembers Braden saying she's probably off on a spiritual journey, she'll pop back up. Well guess what, she didn't. So the Phillips managed to convince Braden to call the police back the next day. This would be June 10th. But still, this is before Alyssa's body has been found. And on this call, according to the police files, Braden does admit to speaking with Alyssa on June 8th. He says they spoke about what was going on in each other's lives, about religion, specifically about this trip that they're thinking of going on to Florida to learn more about a certain religious movement. They decided to leave the decision up to Jesus. Now, according to Braden, the conversation was, it was soft, it was sweet, loving, but interestingly, he also says in it, he admitted to Alyssa that he was having thoughts of not being faithful, that he was viewing pornography and he wanted to drink and smoke and get a house in a job, all those things that were pulling them apart, which were all still things that Alyssa did not approve of. And does he seem concerned at this point, like, to the officers, or are he still kind of detached? It's hard to tell, like, I'm just going off of an officer's right up of this conversation. But it seems like Braden sort of dismisses the idea that Alyssa is in danger. He says that she didn't mention hanging out with anyone new, that she mostly kept to herself anyway. And she didn't make any indications at all that she was going to harm herself. I mean, he said, quote, she is probably just at the zoo. End quote, which is weird than a spiritual journey. I mean, yeah, and like overnight, I guess. Yeah, because this is the next day, but like, I don't know. Braden says that he knows that Alyssa goes to the right parent, and he mentions the right parent every day. But she had also recently started visiting the zoo in the mornings, I guess. So like, I don't know if he just assumes that she went there instead, and was there like the whole time? I don't know. But as for his own whereabouts, Braden tells police that he has been in Washington with the Phillips since the end of April. And does he mention anything about the separation? He doesn't, but it also doesn't seem like they really ask him about it. Like at this point, everything investigators seem to know about Braden and Alyssa's relationship history comes from other sources. And remember, they're talking to him at a time when she has not been fat, like she's just missing. And I think they're really focused on just like seeing if he knows where she is. Yeah. Now as we know, it's only hours after this call, though, that Alyssa's body ends up being found. And Braden's mom, her name's Jody, she actually drives down to the Phillips house herself to tell Braden once she learns the news. And when she gets there, according to Wendy, who Braden's staying with, his behavior is weird. Wendy tells police that Jody was trying to talk to him, but he kept screaming at her and telling her that she was Satan. And when she finally was able to tell him that Alyssa was dead, Braden says, quote, it was prophesied that she would die. prophesied by who? And also, why? Because I'm pretty sure five minutes ago, you were telling us that she was just at the zoo. I don't know. Samantha, one of the Phillips, their daughter, she said that he didn't seem distraught, which was really unsettling to her. And her brother James thought that it was downright terrifying. Though apparently Braden does eventually break down like screaming and whaling. So he does have some reaction. And later that day, he also starts confiding in James. He says that he's afraid of facing his family or going down to Gilbert and seeing his and Alyssa's things. He says he doesn't want to speak at the funeral or even see Alyssa's body or actually go to the funeral at all. James says that they talk until James's parents come home and then Braden says, I don't want you talking about anything we talked about to your parents. But whether James told them or not, Braden eventually stops trusting any of the Phillips. He starts calling their dad Timothy Satan and then he stops speaking to all of them all together. And the last thing he asked for is a ride to the airport the next day, which at this point, I assume the Phillips are like happy to provide. Yeah, but the airport to go back to Arizona. So like Alyssa's family had gotten him a flight so that he could stay with them for a while. They really weren't suspicious of him at all. Not at this point. No, but Samantha, who was 18 or 19 at this time, she said that she was like the day that he left town. This would have been June 11th. She remembers looking at her mom with this sinking feeling in her stomach and saying mom did Braden kill her. But I don't think the police were asking themselves that same question, at least not yet. So the day after Braden gets to Arizona, he calls Gilbert PD asking to speak about Alyssa. He calls them proactively. At least that's what it says in the case file. But when he comes into the station for what they consider his like first formal interview, in it, Braden does him say, self-zero favors. Braden tells police some things that they already know about his analysis relationship and the separation. Emphasizing, by the way, though, that they had their disagreements and they were living apart, but they were definitely still married. And then things start to take a turn. Braden is asked what he heard happened to Alyssa. And this is when he begins to describe the crime scene in vivid detail, which is like-- How do you know what it looked like, Braden? And he tells investigators that he knows because he saw some video of the crime scene on the news of the crime scene. Well, of the investigators saying that they found Alyssa, and then he said he saw this overhead view from a helicopter. And he says, quote, it's kind of hard to see, but you can see it if you look. End quote. And when the detectives ask if anything stuck out to him, he said, just her position. OK, but how has he seen the crime scene video? I'm confused. I know this is what's kind of wild. According to him, it's just like all over. Like the local news agency, AZ Central, AZ Family, CNN, he's saying it's everywhere. Which in the moment, I don't think the detective could like prove him wrong. So he kind of just like pivots, and he starts down this like different line of questioning. He wants to know Braden's thoughts about what happened to Alyssa. And Braden says that the Lord told him Alyssa was attacked by Satan and thrown in the water by a demon. And I'm not quite sure how that goes over with the detective, because there is this like whole reduction paragraph after this. And then Braden starts asking about Alyssa's belongings, specifically her back. What about the investigator asks? But Braden's answer is redacted. I don't know if she always like took a bag with her to the right period, or if Braden knows more than he should, because from like what we can read in the report, there's no mention of a bag at the scene or anywhere. But Braden is able to describe what is inside of this hypothetical bag. And he says he doesn't understand if it just sank or what happened, but he wants to know what she was going through and what she was writing about. The investigator says that, you know, I can't share that information with you. And then he steers Braden back to that demon theory, he mentioned. And he asked Braden, he's like, you know, have you ever been possessed by a demon before? To which Braden says that he believed demons were making him commit sins, like watching TV and drinking alcohol. And at this point, I think the investigator might be like getting in over his head because he writes in the file that he advises Braden that he is not a demon expert. And then he just ends the interview. That's it. Well, it doesn't actually end. He like he tries to, but what happens is the investigator leaves to like get a witness statement form for Braden to fill out. I don't know why they're considering him a witness. Or if this is just like a generic form, yeah, for like a statement form, whatever. But when the investigator gets back into the room, it becomes clear that even if he was done asking him questions, Braden is not done talking. Oh, and this is where things really start to go off the rails. I honestly thought we were already off the rails. You have no idea where this goes. So Braden starts asking about the injuries to Alyssa's body. Because like obviously I know there was an investigation into what happened to her. But like, is there anything else that there's an investigation into? Uh, should there be Braden? Right. Like you tell me. Yeah. But Braden's like, I don't know, like, are you investigating a murder? Are you just like trying to find every detail of what happened? Or are you- Can't it be both? Yeah. And the detective was like, yeah, Braden, with like all of our investigations, we want to find out what happened. But we want to know what happened. Yeah. Yeah, but like also I can't go into that in detail with you. And that's when Braden's like, okay, so you couldn't tell me if there was anything on her body at all. Like, if I called the medical place, would they tell me what happened to her body? And the detective was like, what do you mean? And he says like, is there any mangling or strangling? Like is there any like bruises or like? Like if somebody like punched her or at least tried to kill her, is there any of that on her body? What? I can't- the detective again is like, I can't tell you that. Yeah. And that, it says in the case file, is when Braden giggled and's like, yeah, I know, I know. Okay, so were there any signs of strangulation though? Nothing was mentioned in the unredacted areas of the autopsy report, but there are redactions in the file that appear specifically in the sections that are describing Alyssa's neck and nervous system, which like includes her brain and her spinal cord. But that is such a weirdly specific thing for Braden to ask in the weirdest way possible to. Yeah. At that point, the detective just straight up asked Braden if he knows anything about what happened to Alyssa or anything that might assist in the investigation. And Braden says no, but of course he has not done talking yet. Dude, go home, get a lawyer. Stop talking. So he proceeds to ask the investigator if he can be notified of any updates instead of Alyssa's family, like specifically Alyssa's mom and dad, because he didn't want anyone to freak out. And he kind of explains that like he's wary of misinformation, so he wants to know directly from the source what happened. And the investigator is like, yeah, no, you and the real minds can both have that privilege. Right. Not instead, how about in addition to? But Braden doubles down. He's like, yes, these people are her family, but like they weren't very close. She was living with them. Yeah. And also, like, so is Braden at this point when he's saying that Braden just says that he doesn't want anyone knowing anything before him. So the investigator must like take this opportunity to be like, maybe we should keep talking because he starts down this like new, like, different line of questioning. He asked Braden, if Alyssa was attacked by a person rather than a demon, what should happen to that person? And Braden responds that he thinks that person should be punished and thrown in jail, but when they have fully changed and repented, they should be let out. And then the investigator asks about the death penalty, but Braden says that he wouldn't want that for that person. Which I can totally see being against his religious beliefs, right? Like that's not odd to me. But then he's asked, okay, well, like, what kind of punishment would you want for them? I have to read. I know it's like dry to read a report, but I have to read it to you in his words because like, I don't want you thinking I'm making it so. So Braden then replied, I wouldn't want that for them. I asked Braden to clarify and Braden replied, I wouldn't want death for them, right? We know death penalty. We know that. So this where he says, I asked Braden, what would you want? When Braden replied, I would want them, honestly, I would want them to change. I would want them to know the Lord and I would want them to find him and for them to receive forgiveness, but have true honest repentance. Then there is punishment and there needs to be changed. If there's no change, then that person should have a severe punishment. I asked if the person responsible should be sentenced to prison. Braden replied, I can say possibly I don't know because there are so many things that could like go different ways. Braden went on to say, I guess I'm judging a man by his heart and what's in his heart. If the man is turning and he's changing and he's willing to turn and obey and follow, Braden believed that he, the person responsible, should be built up slowly and gradually. Braden said, he's still in trouble. He's not off the hook and there's punishment, but there, I think that if someone is progressing to that there is proof, then I think that maybe a little bit more mercy. Braden went on to say if they have fully changed, I think that maybe they should not be in jail. And at this point, I'm reading still from the phone. At this point, I advise Braden had this situation occurred to me with my wife being killed, then I would want the person responsible put to death. I advise Braden the two of us have separate backgrounds, which is why we have different views. Braden replied, no, honestly, I feel the same way actually. What you said, I asked Braden why he did not tell me this previously. Braden gave a deep science data. I don't know. I just don't want them to be in trouble. Okay. I know. You read this whole thing and I was like, okay, okay. I feel like I'm getting a picture of Braden and like his thought process and then he's like, you know, you make a lot of sense. What you said. Just go with what you said, what you said at this point, the investigator says to Braden point blank. Like, if you want to tell me something like now would be the time to tell me, but Braden says there is nothing to tell. So this is when the interview wraps up again, again, with the investigator asking Braden, if his DNA would be found at the scene, Braden says, don't use in Washington. The whole day on June 9th, which can be verified by the family he was staying with. And he has this sort of defensive moment where he says that he feels like he's being accused of something and he needs to prove his innocence. Which like, I mean, what you need to do is stop talking. Exactly. Like, I don't think they were ready to accuse him of anything when he walked in there for sure. But they're definitely going to start really looking into him more now. So on June 16th, officers take a trip up to Washington. And when they talk to Braden's mom, Jody, she says that she can't imagine Braden being involved in Alyssa's death. She says that he has never hurt anyone. And until this happened, he's been the best son and brother. Until Alyssa's death? No, I actually think she means more like since he started becoming more like extreme with his religion and like cut the family off. Here, I actually have another part of the police report I'm going to have you read. He just isn't my son like I don't. His personality used to just be so fun and funny and light and a joy to be around. Himitallists are both. They just seem so intense. It's all about God. You can't have a conversation with them without, you know, Jesus being in the mix. So yeah, it had gotten difficult. According to Jody, Braden is the kind of person where if you're not with him, you're against him. Investigators also have an interesting conversation with Timothy Phillips, right? The doubt of the family staying with. He says that back when Braden moved in with them, he kept referring to himself as the condemned man. Timothy says that he felt like Braden was implying that his sins were violent or dangerous. And he thought that Braden must have been worried about getting a divorce from Alyssa because of how that would affect his religious progression. He also says that Braden's response to Alyssa's death was not normal. That was a quote, not normal. But the most important conversation investigators have is with Wendy, who indeed confirms that Braden was at her house. Every day of the week that Alyssa went missing and that she saw him physically each day up until she drove him to the airport on the 11th. I mean, you're kidding me. No, like he has a rock solid alibi. But it doesn't mean he still wasn't involved, which is why they keep digging. And luckily for investigators, Wendy hands over something that could help them test this theory, right? Like was he maybe involved, but not like physically responsible? She gives them the devices that Braden had been using while he was staying with them, including a phone and a tablet. And he didn't take those with him to Arizona? No, because they weren't his. Remember, Braden and Alyssa shared a phone. And so when Braden left for Washington, Alyssa kept that phone. So while he was staying with the Phillips family, he was borrowing their son's devices. That's how he would communicate with Alyssa. And their son, James, told police that Braden used his tablet constantly. So when the forensic analysis comes back a month later on these devices, that's what investigators expect to see, right? Like all these communications constant use. But there's a little problem. Or if you're Braden, there is a big problem. Because it turns out Braden had deleted almost all traces of his activity on the phone and tablet. And according to Wendy, the day he left, Braden did the same thing with his Xbox live account. She tells police quote, it's like he was never there. Three months after these data, records come back. Investigators feel like they're ready to talk to Braden again, to lay out everything that they've learned since their first discussion and see what he has to say. And if you didn't pick up on this from Braden's first interview, he's going to have a lot to say. Yeah. This time around, they go to him because he's back in Washington at this point. And they start off with an open-ended question. What do you know about Alyssa's death? And Braden answers, I don't know anything. I know that she went to the riparian preserve. I don't know how she died. I literally don't know what happened is what he said. Okay, I thought he knew all about the crime scene. That so that is exactly what they bring it back to. They're like, hey, so remember how you said you knew about the crime scene because you saw it on TV. So weird thing. We can't find news coverage of it. We even asked your mom last time that we were in Washington if like the media up there was showing something like maybe they showed something we can't find here in Arizona. She said no. At one point, she even said information regarding Alyssa's death was nonexistent in the media. But Braden doubles down and he starts describing the footage in even more detail. I mean, like he literally draws a map for investigators with details down to where the bathrooms and the benches were in the preserve. He says that he watched a clip on easy family of a helicopter flying over a pond and he saw this hourglass figure that quote looked like my wife. But police are like, dude, again, where? Because we cannot find this thing. So Braden is like, okay, whatever. He like whips out his phone. Like, here, I'll show you. But all of a sudden, Braden can't seem to find it either. And now he sort of tries to like walk the whole thing back. Like he says, like, oh, I thought I saw a body, but maybe I what I saw was like a bush. He just said he saw an hourglass figure. That's what like his wife. I know. I know. And at this point, investigators are like straight up listen. We're having trouble ruling you out as a suspect. And this is the moment where I would say, if this were me, I didn't do this. I am innocent. Braden chooses to go with, well, there's no evidence or anything. No, not not the right answer. And the detective is like, how do you know there's no evidence? And Braden says, well, you know, obviously there isn't. And so the detective asks again, like, but how do you know that? And that's when Braden has to admit he doesn't know that. And at this point, I can only imagine that things are like feeling tense. So Braden takes the opportunity to reiterate what should be his rock solid alibi. He was in Washington. He didn't have his own devices or any money or even a car. I mean, but he was still using devices and they were basically all wiped. Yeah. Braden says that that, by the way, was because he was watching porn and sports and didn't want the Phillips to think badly of him. But like, by the way, he also deleted his communication. So like that doesn't totally add up for me. And listen, there are a whole lot of redactions in the file at this point. I mean, I can't even imagine what more he could have said. I don't know. But the next thing that I can see is the point where the investigator starts walking through some theories. One is that this was a murder. Two is that someone was trying to help Alyssa rid herself of demons went too far. And this was an accident. And Braden's like, yep, that second one. But he says he doesn't think that it was an accident because quote, demons wanted to kill Alyssa. And then as if things couldn't get any worse, Braden sort of goes off on this rant about how he is this like wretched and evil man because of the things that he has done. He says that he's hurt people. He's lied to them about who he is. Well hurt who? I don't know. And the detective actually asked a different question. That would have been my question. He wants Braden to tell him the worst thing he's ever done to a person. So maybe kind of the same question. And Braden has an answer. He tells this story about this one time that he and Alyssa were in California together ministering at a woman's house. And Alyssa was like praying to God to rebuke the demons inside of him. But she wouldn't stop when he asked her to. So Braden threatened her to be quiet with a knife. So now the detective asks if maybe that same thing happened at the preserve. And Braden says, the devil, yeah, he manifested. I wasn't physically there, but he manifested. And then of course, as soon as it feels like we are on the brink of something, reductions, pages of them. When I can read again, all I can see is that Braden refused to take a computer voice stress analysis because the Lord told him not to. And that must be good enough for detectives because that is the last time that they speak to Braden. You're kidding me. No. Now granted, I've told you, there are a lot of reductions in the file. But this is the last interview with him that I can see. And I think that is because they could never put him in Arizona or connect him to someone who was there. Okay, but like, how do you explain him drawing a map of the crime scene? Our team actually got to the bottom of that. So that video that Braden was talking about, this aerial footage over the riparian showing the discovery of Alyssa's body. Alyssa's sister Michelle says she saw it too. She said that it was on the evening news a day or two after Alyssa was found and it was [BLANK_AUDIO] >> Is there enough for her to observe something white in the water, which she also thought was a list's body because she was like naturally very pale. >> Okay, so how come the officer couldn't seem to find it? >> Well, that's because by the time the officer was searching for it, I don't think there was anything there to find. It seemed like it had been taken down and we even dug into this a little deeper with the help of our breaking news reporter, Brianna Whitney. She was crazy family, literally she came here from AZ family and that's the station that Braden specifically referenced in this police interview and she said that as a matter of policy there, the station would not post any footage showing a body or human remains of any kind. >> Which makes sense. >> Yeah, now Brianna wasn't with the station at this time, but she said what's very likely is that if there was a breaking news broadcast that showed something that the newsroom later realized might depict a body, it would immediately be scrubbed from their channels. Which tells me that Braden was likely telling the truth in his interview with police. And I know that he drew a map, but like Braden had been to the right period over a dozen times before this, like which he did actually relate to investigators. Now Michelle and the rest of the Romain family back up Braden in other ways too. Yes, the stuff he was saying was off the wall, but they said he had no motive. Because even though he and Alyssa were separated, everyone in their lives said that the two were not even close to heading for divorce. They just wanted a little bit of space for like a hot minute. No one ever witnessed any arguing. They were still talking on the phone for hours a day, even during the separation. And they had plans to go to that like Bible conference a week or two after Alyssa died. And what's more, according to Chelsea, the only reason that Braden even went back to Washington, rather than stay in Arizona during this little time apart, was because his grandfather had passed away. Otherwise she said he probably would have just stayed local. So this motive, not really as solid as it seemed. And if there's no motive, then you can rule out like any sort of like hit man theory, right? I can't say anything for certain. And for what it's worth, the Phillips family, who hosted Braden after the separation, said the thought has always lingered with them that Braden knows what happened to Alyssa. They still see him around in Washington sometimes, like at church or the grocery store. But none of them have spoken to him since he got on that airplane to Arizona back in 2016. They actually left a church service and went home after seeing him because they like didn't even want to deal. But like, I mean, play this theory out, right? So like we know Braden didn't have a job. He and Alyssa survived off donations. I mean, the role minds literally had to pay for his travel to Arizona. So if this was a hit for higher situation, how is he paying for it? With what money? Exactly. And listen, maybe he had like a friend in Arizona who would have helped him free of charge. Or maybe we're trying to connect dots that don't connect because Braden had nothing to do with this either way, there is no explicit explanation as to why Braden's name sort of just fades from reports. And I actually can't say for certain that the police have cleared him. Now, I know that James said they still have his cell phone laptop and tablet like all the ones that Braden was using, but it's hard to say if the police are actually doing anything with them or if they're just holding on to them. And I'm assuming we tried reaching Braden for comment, of course, but as of this recording, we haven't gotten a response. Alyssa's sister Michelle told us it felt like investigators took one look at Alyssa and Braden's lifestyle, heard about their religious beliefs and instantly wrote them off as religious lunatics. And from that point on, she believes the investigation was driven by a simple assumption, either Alyssa did this to herself or Braden did it to her. They were going to figure out how to put the pieces together to fit that story. But guess what, it's over 10 years later and this case is just an undetermined purgatory. And the more that we investigated, the easier it became to see Braden, not as somebody who killed his beloved wife, but rather somebody who was distraught, overwhelmed, and in desperate need of a lawyer because when you remove him from the equation, there are some other very viable leads that have been haunting not only me, but Alyssa's family too. And when you hear them, I think you'll understand why because girl even through the red actions, what we found is shocking. And this case takes some wild turns involving a family stalker, an ex-boyfriend, two strangers who knew things they shouldn't have, and Alyssa's ties to a controversial religious movement which many online have likened to a cult. But that's on next week's episode. Or if you're in the Crime Junkie fan club, you can listen to part two right now, add free. Crime Junkie is an audio chuck production. I think chuck would approve.