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Speaker 2Welcome back, or welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and addiction. If you or someone you love is struggling, please reach out to me on any social media platform. At Recovering Out Loud pod, you are no longer alone. We meet some of the most interesting people in the world, right? Oh, yeah. I love this recovery thing. Oh, yeah. You know, forget all the stories and the stuff, the shock factor, right? The wow factor. Forget all that.
Speaker 3How low was your low kind of stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2You know, I fucking rolled down a hill naked and, you know, took out six old people and everyone was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3I can, yeah. And then you... And then someone, and then there'll be someone who like robbed a bank and you're like, okay, you win. So tell me about the pod. Tell me about the focus of the conversations you're trying to have. What is this project?
Speaker 2Great question. So I'll tell you why, when I started it, what the kind of goal was. And I'm trying to stay with that notion. I originally started this in my last treatment center. The reason I haven't seen you for a while, because I've been doing some more research last year. I've actually, I'm coming up. Fucking three, four, four days. I'm getting a year again.
Speaker 3Oh, fuck yeah, dude. Fuck yeah, dude. It's like... I thought you were going to say I've got four days. I'm like, hey, that's a lot of time. That's like a year.
Speaker 2Way to go. I'm surprised you're doing this right now. Four days. Okay. Yeah. I'm surprised you can put a sentence together. Step one. What about step one? Maybe, yeah, maybe...
Speaker 3So you did treatment up north.
Speaker 2Is this the one you're talking about? Yeah. When I went to in January of last year. Yes. Hit another rock bottom, but I was doing some more research. That's why I hadn't seen a lot of people for a while. Don't recommend it. You know, don't recommend it at all.
Speaker 3You still want to live healthy? You still want to, like, you did some research and you've decided I'm going to... Yeah, this side's better. I'm going to stick with healthy.
Speaker 2Yeah, this side's better. I'm going to stick with alive too. Yeah, yeah. Seriously, like... There was no going back from that. A lot of people, and I'm sure you can relate to this, shook hands with the devil near death. You know, if I don't know if I have one more relapse in me, sorry, I don't know if I know I have one relapse in me. I don't know if I have another recovery. Yeah, okay. And I love that. It's so true. So in treatment this past time, and I'm like, I love podcasts. I love talking to people. Absolutely. I'm going to do this thing, right? I didn't realize too, it's like, and not that it's a competition at all, but when I started doing it, I got into this. There's lots of sober recovery podcasts out there. And it's amazing. It's amazing. I just didn't, I didn't realize how many there were. But when I first thought of it, I was like, oh, this is a great idea. Like, no one's thought of this yet.
Speaker 3No, dude, like... There's a lot of people. You look up... Birdhouse making podcasts. There's like a million of them. There's so many. Like, it's a great medium. I have a podcast. Oh. Yeah. So it's a men's group. Men's, like, and so what, it's like, my partner calls it like a men's excellence group or a men's success group. But really what it turns out is there's guys in the U.S. who are maybe obese or they don't know how to meet girls or they're broke or they're just smoking pot all day and playing video games. And Wes and I, we meet with them every week and we talk about goals. We talk about healthy living. I share my story with addiction and recovery, like, at least once per conversation, you know? And so I love the medium of podcast and I get so much out of the conversations. Like an AA meeting, like a 12-step meeting, you know? Um, when you don't feel like doing it and you show up, you, um, you always come away feeling better. Yeah. So I love, I love the medium. And, uh, also because recovery is such a voice to voice person to person journey, right? Like reading a book, like your, your sponsor doesn't tell you to, to, um, text people. He tells you to call somebody every day. Right. And, and so. Um, yeah, thank you for having me, which is a lot harder doing this. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2I appreciate you coming down and, uh, yeah. So just to finish my thought there, like it's, uh, that's amazing. I didn't know that there's, it's an easy way to access, you know, information that you can feel sort of more personal, right? What I've noticed with podcasting that I like podcasters that I like, or podcasts that I like, it's not the actual, I was thinking about this the other day. I spent a lot of time thinking about this, but it's, I think I, I actually start to like the person. Of course. Right. Yeah. You still, you start to like Chris Williamson is, is an example. I don't know if you know, modern wisdom. Nope. I'm a huge fan. I'm obsessed with it.
Speaker 3I'm more into birdhouse making podcasts.
Speaker 2Like I said, but he's, he's, you're locked in. I'm going to go look that up now after this, but it's, it's him that I like. Yeah. It's, it's his thought patterns that I, that I identify with. He's working on himself. His, his humor is the same as mine. And so he also happens to get really interesting guests on. But when I listen, I'm, and he talks. I'm just like, oh yeah, fuck. Like, I, I think like, I hadn't thought about it that way. Right. And I think it's, you know, that's how we're drawn in recovery too. I think to, to, we kind of stick with people that. Yeah. Connection. We, we see ourselves in them or they say things that we're too scared to say sometimes, or they say things that we're feeling, which is that's recovery. Right. Yeah. What? I didn't know. What do you mean? Like, I'm not alone in that. Yeah. I didn't know that I see you, other people stayed up for days and saw things and, you know, psychosis and couldn't stop whatever the thing. Might be. That's just off the top of my head right now. Cause I since realized that a lot of people didn't realize that other people also experienced that. Right. Cause you think you're crazy. Right. When you're coming in.
Speaker 3And you're so embarrassed about what you did and the shame. The shame. Yeah. And that's one of the pillars of the program again, is that, um, you get to hear people say, I did the same thing or worse. I also never wanted to tell anyone. I wanted to bring, bring that secret to my grave and by telling and releasing. That kind of burden, um, you know, the, uh, life is so much better on the other side of that. Yeah. That's one of the major like inflection points, turning points in recovery that we go through. Yeah.
Speaker 2It opens the door for, yeah. What else can I be honest about? And I'll tell you in a high level way, cause I, I talk about it a lot on here, but my relapse was keeping those, those things inside that is like high level, full stop. I tell everybody all every day.
Speaker 3I, that was the recipe that made the relapse possible.
Speaker 2Started with one little lie or secret or I'm just gonna, I'm going to, I'm going to handle this over here, guys, you know, uh, Tim, our friend Tim, um, from Tuesday always says he, and he said this to me before I relapse, I'll never forget it. Uh, I wish I listened, but you know, hindsight 2020. Right. But I, it stuck with me is we went for coffee one day and he sits down and he goes, Anthony, he could tell I was starting to, you know, I think I had it ready. relapse at that point make sure one person in the world knows everything one person and i love that right and not like as great as talking to god is and spirituality and you have to bounce things off of other people yeah you have to and and that's not it's true like one person make sure they know every single idea secret plan you know for me it was like i'm gonna get back into steroids and fix my adhd and then it spiraled down there but that's what i tell people all the time and i today i realize that i have an experience that people in recovery might need to hear oh yeah long-term recovery right oh yeah and i never thought i could i never thought i would relapse ever right
Speaker 3and then another thing we never think is that um we'll be on the giving end of wisdom in this thing because we come in so desperate and multiple relapses and we think we're just here to get medicated you you you you , but um uh it's it's a magical program in that we get to give back or give giving back is is one of the foundational ideas of it giving it away we call it but um yeah it's not hard for you to be like a to to to show to light the path of recovery for people yeah it's a good point though you do
Speaker 2come in you're like i'm not gonna how can i help anybody i don't i don't have anything and i mean at first i'm a bum a lot of people would agree with that you don't really have much to offer at first yeah yeah
Speaker 3just just listen for just yeah listening and then and then uh but that but that's also a skill like what i love about 12 step is that um now that i don't have the urge to drink every single day um i get to reflect on my other um flaws or attributes and uh yeah learning to listen that's a skill that i get to practice in aa it's just one of the being an adult skills that i get to practice being nice not dumping all my drama on somebody else um cleaning up turning off the lights when you leave the room like showing up on time like showing up on time i don't know if you know anyone in active addiction who is really good at showing up on time this stuff no it doesn't go hand in hand no so that and so that is like a kind of normal grown-up behavior that we get to practice in recovery and that is a non-alcohol or drug benefit of recovery that kind of like ripples into our broader life the thing about listening to is
Speaker 2ever since i started this podcast god that that's a skill that you have to sharpen too right and i agree 100 it's it's not listening to talk either it's listening to actually
Speaker 3take in that information like the difference between hearing and listening or whatever
Speaker 2people talk i love that i love that hearing and listening is like actually listening feeling what they're feeling or interpreting what they're saying um it's a beautiful thing right so why don't we let's do this um i usually get people to tell sort of a little bit about their their story i guess from a high level like how did you you know what what brought you to your knees the moment what did alcohol and drugs do for you how did you get to that moment of this is enough wave the white flag and then what stuck how did your recovery stick after that
Speaker 3well um drinking and partying was part of my strong personal brand since i was like 13 years old uh i was so insecure and you know how like guys like you and i like we are walking white privilege male christian heterosexual able-bodied uh you know and um and yet we think we're skinny or ugly or losers or not good enough right i don't know how we get programmed with these ideas but then when we start drinking and we can be the life of the party or we can be the wildest person in the room that gives us a kind of like uh um some armor against those feelings right so i was the life of the party i'm a fun kind loving guy and mostly when i was drunk that would be kind of um heightened and you know how some people get really dark when they drink or or violent or angry that wasn't me um 90 of the time and uh but it was becoming a problem like wasn't able to hold down work wasn't i was and i you know got married and it was clear to my girlfriend and then wife that um i was drinking too much i was drinking faster than everyone i was drinking faster than everyone else uh and before everyone else and later than everyone else right and so uh at some point i i remember it as like at some point she said hey you could either keep drinking or you can keep being married and so i i picked keep being married and so i was able to um stop drinking and i don't think it's not like i never took a drink from that day on but i think i had taken breaks from drinking for weeks or months at a time and i was able to um that was about 11 years ago uh and i told myself that i don't have a brake pedal when it comes to alcohol i can accelerate i can drink more but i can't slow down and stop so uh i but i also told myself so that was wise but i also told myself i have a brake pedal when it comes to everything else so i could leave pot or coke in the like shoebox in the closet and maybe do it you know but um you know how this movie ends like eventually my need to escape my fear and insecurity that i was medicating with alcohol i found something else to medicate it i didn't address that and i just found something else to make it so i became so like from doing cocaine at bars and nightclubs i ended up doing it every day from morning till night um and just a mess of shame right like i would um and there's something about that drug in particular that's like why do i do this i don't want to do this five minutes later you do it like the craving is so strong right so the difference between alcohol and cocaine for me is that i knew i wanted to stop with cocaine and that i could not stop whereas with alcohol i wanted to stop and so i stopped right but i mean i was in a spiral of years telling myself okay tomorrow i'm going to do half a gram the next day a quarter gram by the day three i'm going to be totally done or you know um uh and i carried around like a secret stole money or kind of like hid money or whatever to fund my habit stole jewelry from my wife stole jewelry from my mom um and uh um and i'm okay i'm at peace with that now still like stole money from my dad's wallet when he was getting cancer treatments um and um have been able to make amends and apologize for that uh which is um a really uh hardest slash best part of 12 step um so that's my that's uh i think that's the most important part for today which is with alcohol i i when i wanted to quit i could with cocaine um when i wanted to i could not stop i had to get caught i had to get threatened with divorce i had to get on an uh a narcotics anonymous meeting right away my wife marched me down my doctor he's like let's have a holistic approach where you go to aa and you go to some addiction doctor and you go to some drug addiction doctor and you go to some doctor and you go to your therapist and see like what your what medication you're not doing correctly the holistic approach that was required when it came time to getting fully clean from alcohol and drugs what uh yeah you mentioned i
Speaker 2think we're a lot alike in that sense where you know alcohol was never really i call myself an alcoholic today same because and so that's what i want to get your opinion on that when you hear somebody come to you and say i'm an alcoholic i'm an alcoholic i'm an alcoholic i'm an alcoholic i'm an alcoholic i'm an alcoholic i'm an alcoholic uh because i was like you i i could kind of put alcohol down it was always there but i never burned the house down with alcohol i never got threatened divorce or my same thing you weren't a bum in the gutter one of those kind of cliches like it was just it was cocaine that was the thing that i couldn't see myself living without and all stimulants really it ended by the end of it like last relapse it was meth the fake adderall pills that was my my real unfamiliar yeah that took me down because there was uh yeah anyways so when you when you hear someone come in because i'm sure you do and they say yeah you know i got the drug thing under control alcohol i'm not really an alcoholic like what was the turning point for you to make that distinction i am an alcoholic
Speaker 3as well as an addict uh well i mean i don't know if this is answering your question but i remember uh having been alcohol-free five years and getting a job in toronto now like like we discussed um on the way down here i'm a creative so i sell art for a living and this was the first time and so now um being a independent like freelance art dealer is like the easiest way to just drink and drug all the time and not be accountable to anyone right so when i finally got a job at a retail store selling art in toronto um not drinking alcohol is one of like the the great kind of like qualities and um upsides of hiring me right never hung over etc and um and so and i would you know celebrate with coke occasionally but what i discovered is that my insecurity expressed itself particularly with me was the stress of working all day i would start i started coking on the weekdays and then i got to the point where i coked from the moment i got home from work because i was afraid of what i had done that day and i was afraid that i was going to get fired tomorrow so like in other words like i was afraid i did something fireable today in the past we can't control the past and i was afraid that i was going to get fired tomorrow in the future we can't control the future and so in the present i just spent it um medicating this fear with coke and so when i because alcohol is so permissive in our culture people can go to the pub every day and still and not be called a problem drinker in in like the wider culture to most people but if you you're doing coke like uh you know like uh monday wednesday tuesday friday all day saturday all day sunday right like from the moment like if from the like at 501 the moment you're done work every day that is not socially acceptable we don't have commercials on tv about that we don't like you know there aren't bud light commercials about that i knew something was wrong um but again like there's something about addiction or the kind of people who are wired um for addiction that asking for help was not an option right stop and uh stopping was impossible so uh there were times when i did coke at work and then uh when after i got fired i uh uh you know the the the starting line for when i would start got like earlier and earlier right and it like and so like uh i remember it was the world cup of soccer i believe it was the one that was hosted in russia and so my brother and i we were watching a like russia broadcast right so it would have been noon toronto time and i was like you know look you know it's too early to start doing coke and he's like no take it out so um i remember that was like uh yeah that was the first time i'd ever done before noon and uh yeah so with coke it was just a lot easier for me to compare myself to the broader and say, this is not normal.
Speaker 2So then... Um, was it hard for you to like to quit drinking then altogether after you got the quote, the Coke settled or?
Speaker 3No. So I, um, just to correct the record, I quit drinking 10 years ago, 11 years ago, and I did a Coke alcohol free. Wow. For all that time. Yeah.
Speaker 2That's okay. That's, that's not, um, that's not typical. I would say. Yeah.
Speaker 3Although, although, I mean, I do find, um, I've found similar people in, in recovery, uh, and, uh, also at the end of my journey, I was, um, doing whatever I could get my hands on except alcohol. For some reason, I was such a snob about alcohol. I don't drink. Ray does not drink. So, but I was doing Coke.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3Anytime I was in front of someone's medicine cabinet.
Speaker 2You're doing Coke to watch soccer, which I could also, I can relate to that.
Speaker 3And don't tell me I'm the only person who does. That, you know, um, uh, and so, uh, and then at the end of it, I'd be like smoking weed and, and just trying whatever's in your medicine cabinet or grandma's medicine cabinet. So, um, yeah. So I know for sure now that I was trying to numb out. I was trying to run away. I was trying to escape and I have to, and in order for me to live, I have to live healthy. Um, it's not a prison sentence in order for me to live a complete life. I have to, um, set aside anything that's a form of unhealthy escape. Yeah.
Speaker 2You, you, you said it really well. Um, it's yesterday. I'm, I'm always living in yesterday or tomorrow. Yeah. And the present moment for, for an addict, but for me, especially, I can only speak for myself is so unbearable that I need outside. Things to, to escape it, to, to, to disappear.
Speaker 4Right.
Speaker 2So you come in, um, what was the moment like where you, you're, you know, your last drunk or your last 30 days, I guess, in, in addiction. I mean, you, you sort of described it, but what was the moment that finally got you over to the side of sobriety?
Speaker 3Well, um, the actual mechanics of the last moment, it was very like, uh, three stooges. Okay. So, uh, my wife and I are arguing it with something. And the cat runs across the table and knocks over like a glass and breaks on the floor. And my wife picks up a piece of glass and cuts her finger. She's like, God damn it. And I'm like, and so I'm like, God damn it, cat. And I take my phone and I throw it at the cat. It hits the ground. And the, the, the protective case of the iPhone pops off. And right in there was where I used to keep my little baggies of Coke. So the baggie flies out in front of my wife. And she was like, I knew it. I knew you, that you, there was something off with you. Uh, because I had, I had been confronted by her friends a year before and urged to quit. Uh, and I had quit for two weeks. I managed to quit for two weeks. And like, I have so much compassion for people who are at the beginning of their journey now, because I remember when I tried to quit that 12 months before, um, how hard the force was on me. How hard the first, impossible the first minute was, how hard the first hour was, what a challenge first day was, and how I white knuckled the first week. And, but then the second week's easier and it's, and our emotions will go up and down, but really when you are in withdrawal from man, one of the most powerful substances God ever created, like it is the heroic phase of the recovery. That's what I call it. Um, yeah, so that's, uh, after promising, I quit really only lasting two weeks and then going back to cooking every day for the next 365 minus 14, which is, you know, whatever it is. Um, uh, 351 days. Uh, that is what happened when I finally caught and it's, and like I said, for that last year, after my wife and her friends kind of confronted me and asked me to quit that last year, I wanted to, but could not. Um, so I was relieved when she found me when I got caught, all that lying. When I got caught for all that lying, because, um, I was carrying an unbearable weight of shame and like, I was a prisoner to the drug, right?
Speaker 2I can relate to that so much. I mean, and you said that off the top too, is like, I need to get caught to, to make change because it's hard to ask for help, uh, I find too. And so if I look back on, you know, a lot of my moments, even, even when I was 23 and when I first went to rehab, it was getting caught, you know, by my parents or by my friends and my friend telling my parents, Hey, this is, you might want to look at this. Like he's worse than all of us, you know? And he's, he's using every day, same thing. Right. And it was the cocaine that brought me down. Uh, but yeah, I have to be brought to my knees and I have to be embarrassed. And, but I like what you said too, is that unbearable weight, right? Where it's like, you finally admit to something or, or you get caught and it's like, I don't have to lie about this anymore. I'm not on the run anymore. It's like spinning a story and a web of stories and keeping everyone lying becomes the only
Speaker 3thing we do where it's other than quickly remembering what the last lie we told the person, you know, all we do is spin lies and we lie for no reason. We lie when we're crossing the border, we'll lie, we'll rely when we're having a random conversation with the grocery, you know, bagger and like, uh, yeah.
Speaker 2Like, why do you think that is?
Speaker 3Cause I know I can relate to it too. Gosh, man, that's a deep one. Um, we drink and drug to, um, nurse and insecurity or shame or fear. And I suppose when we are high or drunk, we don't feel like ourselves. We don't have that terrible curse of feeling like ourselves. We get to like, we get to kind of feel like somebody else. And, uh, on Halloween. Halloween, when we're in a costume, we get to kind of, we're kind of liberated when we're in a costume Halloween, we get to act how we want because none of our reputational baggage comes with us. And I, so I think, um, as an addict, we maybe we lie because we're not good enough. You know, uh, you're not, you, um, my story is not good enough to tell you what's really going on. I'm not good enough to actually be with you. So I lie in order to. Um, to be wanted. That's just what came to my mind right there.
Speaker 2Interesting. Yeah, no, I, I, I just, I always find it interesting because when you said lying about things that don't really matter or stupid shit, it's like, yeah, I do that too. And I, I spend a lot of time reflecting, you know, I think recovery in its, in of, in of, of itself is self-searching journey. Uh, you, you know, why do I do things? This interest, introspective journey, self-searching, um, self-appraisal, honest self-appraisal, like, Hey, why am I, why really, why am I doing that? Why does this thought keep coming up? And, uh, I guess for me, I, I, I never thought about it that way is like maybe my version of the truth or the truth itself isn't good enough.
Speaker 3I don't, I want you to like, it's one part of it now that now, um, having said that, first of all, I know you, like you said, like you grew up thinking you were ugly. Did you not say that?
Speaker 2It was more so, um, body dysmorphia.
Speaker 3Body dysmorphia, which is retarded because you won the genetic lottery obviously. And so did I, right. Um, and then another kind of lying that I became a champion at is, um, and given the reflection we do, I've learned to figure it out is, uh, in AA, we learned that, um, promising or apologizing for something with no intention or ability to change is a kind of a lying or it's a kind of dishonesty. Yeah. You get caught stealing. Um, and that's the difference between apologizing and making amends. You get caught drinking, you apologize cause you're hung over and you're embarrassed.
Speaker 2Um, you, and you want that feeling to just go away to stop that embarrassment, that shame.
Speaker 3So that embarrassment, that fear. And so like, why do we lie when we get pulled over? Because we were trying to just get out of the jam as quickly as possible. Right. It's kind of an emergency deflect attention.
Speaker 2Yeah. It's an.
Speaker 3Emergency response. And so, uh, there's something about when we're in active addiction that, you know, everything is an emergency response. You're you, you could get caught at any moment, right? So the lie is just the easiest way to think of what's the fastest way to, uh, diffuse this situation and then do that.
Speaker 2Or deflect. It's like, it's like I'm holding off like a shield and I'm just like, ah, back to you. Get the attention back to you. Right. Um, yeah, no, it's, it's 100%. True. Uh, I think, you know, I was always taught to, um, to my therapist that I had that whenever I told those little white lies to like, at some point go back and be like, Hey, you know, I, I lied there, you know, I just laugh about it.
Speaker 3Remember that thing where it wasn't necessary to lie. I lied there. Yeah.
Speaker 2And I told you, I only had, uh, six parking tickets in my life. Right. I've actually had 10. It was like, uh, I think a lot of, and that's not a deal breaker. I know. Yeah. - People are gonna accept you, right? It's never a deal breaker.
Speaker 3- Yeah, for some reason, uh that is we reach for that button first like it feels safe to reach for that button
Speaker 2i think a lot of the time too is like i want you to for me it's it what comes to my mind when i think of why do we lie at least right now because i think it does change and it's different for everybody is uh people pleasing sure i i just i don't think you're gonna like the story as much as unless i finesse it a little bit or mold it into what i think you want me to be right what i what i what i what i want to be or what i think i want you to me need to be right you stopped making
Speaker 3sense a little while ago but um something i do where are we again that's something i do that's just like that is uh right now so i'm not lying about whether i'm high or not and i'm not lying pathologically like i used to um in active addiction but i find myself double booking myself and even triple booking myself sometimes and um if i think about my whole life it's because i was afraid to disappoint the person by saying no you know yeah you uh that that people pleasing i can i'm happy you brought that up because one
Speaker 2of my questions was going to be and this is the shit i really like talking about is like what are you struggling with today one of the things and i got reminded of this the other day at a recovery space that i was at guy had a long time in recovery told his story great message and this happens quite a bit not that there's anything wrong with it because i think that message is important for people to hear i was fucked up i got i did things this way i followed direction now i'm not as fucked up where my problem is like i want to hear what you're fucking struggling with man today yesterday i want to hear about the fucking taxi driver you just told to fuck off and you know uh beat up or cut off or give me something real give me something because that's what i need to hear man like i i don't need to hear how great recovery is because it it can be great yeah absolutely yeah today for me it's great it's not perfect it never is i want to hear about what you're struggling with so you don't you mentioned uh this double booking thing and like not being able to say no yeah right yeah how how are you working on that and i guess what else are you sort of struggling with off of that topic bro i was like on a facetime call with my girlfriend
Speaker 3walking up bathurst when you texted me like five minutes before our scheduled time and you were like this parking in the back and i was like oh my god i mean because i we i we had we were just so everyone knows bathurst is not near here so thank god you forgot that's amazing like yo traffic is tough 10 minutes away or whatever you got here fast dude yeah dude it was like i uh but um i was lucky i activated the no no i so um undisciplined behavior i struggle with uh i'm trying to lose some weight for travel not that i need to for those of you just listening i've got you know rock solid six-pack but uh undisciplined eating um undisciplined um behavior is hard for me uh i can't have the uber app on my phone or else i'll just uber uber eats yeah yeah i won't no uber eats and the uber transportation where do you go well um i i should be driving my car or taking the streetcar or walking and you'd rather uber no i don't have the uber app for that reason okay okay okay so just to just to like kind of uh dial it back a few minutes i'm not perfect okay and so there's uh if for you it might be uber eats where you might have a fridge full of leafy greens but you're just gonna uber eats junk food i can relate to that too uh um not only is mcdonald's unhealthy but to just lie in bed and have someone else bring it to your front door is doubly unhealthy so it really is it was the uber eats and the uber um anyway so i don't have any i don't have the app at all and i was able to turn it on today to get here quickly okay i see what you're saying um what i struggle with today is that um i don't have as much money as i want i don't have a career that i want i'm doing a lot of um i wouldn't call them odd jobs but i do i do a lot of kind of um i do a lot of informal work and i'm able to put together financial stability for myself which is a huge first step but um yeah like i've i've got a nice old vintage car i got no business driving i should be like like it's in the shop i don't know how i'm gonna pay for that i'm riding the tdc these days and uh when the tdc is early and i jump on there and i'm like jason bourne cutting through the city i'm very happy when it's late or i miss it i really um struggle with um emotional balance yeah you know so yeah so screaming and obscenity at the top of my lungs not at at somebody but just at the world you know um uh yeah and so uh that is something that i'm i'm currently struggling with on almost a daily basis is keeping my sanity um on public transit and i think it's linked to this idea of powerlessness and control or lack of control that comes up over and over again in recovery where um when i'm in a situation where i'm in a situation where i'm in a situation where i have a vehicle i'm in control of when i enter it and don't not so with the bus um even though just navigating the city in a car you are also at the mercy of however the traffic is construction yeah so i found that i don't know how practical it is but if i need if i give myself an hour to get somewhere no matter where i'm going i don't drive dangerously i drive slow and i'm not offended if i have to go around somebody or merge because of construction it changes the whole
Speaker 2complexion outlook on your day man like when you when you afford yourself enough time i had a counselor at that rehab that i was just talking about always mentioned that he goes every time i go anywhere ever i i purposely leave 15 minutes of a security gap of a buffer i'm not there yet right i know neither am i it's he's a spiritual giant yeah he's not an addict himself he's like a genius that guy and uh but it's true he's like i'm i'm everywhere i go i'm 15 minutes early because i've spent so much time on the road i've spent so much time on the road i've spent so much time being late or and at the mercy of whatever happens on the 401 yeah unpredictable 400 yeah you know it's interesting too because i think this illusion of control is what kind of everybody in addiction at least myself strives for like i if i could just turn the dial a little bit towards my direction if you would just do things the way i want you to do them right like ray did you not get the script right that i from for life that i you know what i mean it's you're supposed to world we're living anthony's world and i think a lot of people when they come in can relate to that even in without you know in recovery without uh substances because you you come in here and you're so used to this illusory freedom this control that we have i don't like this thought i'm gonna do a line you know what what do you mean i know how to fix this boom and it does that's the problem with drugs is they work what do you call like um eject yeah i love that it's almost a chemical eject button yeah i've this is uncomfortable. Yeah. I'm going to fucking get out of here.
Speaker 3And, but the thing is, Anthony, that we, we become dependent on that eject button so that, um, the littlest thing, the most minor inconvenience will have us ejecting. And it gets to the point where nothing at all can be going wrong and we're ejecting.
Speaker 2Yeah. Right. Which just isn't life. It's not, no, it's not, it's not sustainable.
Speaker 3No, it's not. And it's, it's also, it's not, it's, um, obviously it's not healthy, but it's, but it's also becomes not even enjoyable for the person who's doing it. Right. I'm sure you weren't, um, loving every second of that. You're, you're rock bottom. No, you're a prisoner of it.
Speaker 2Right. That's the best way to put it. And, uh, it's, so that's why I always think cravings are hilarious, right? It's, I laugh at them every single time. Once I get through them and whatever. I mean, as of today, it's much more few and far between. Yeah. My first, I would say three months for sure. Like coming back again. Right. Because, you know, I had seven years before that. You saw me when I came in and relapsed, right? You were at that place, that group where I broke down in front of everybody. Uh, it had been a while since I had had like early recovery, really. Right. Like early sustained recovery. Cause I was coming in and out for a while. Anyways, that first three months I would say, and I tell people this openly is I was living at a sober house. Thank God. I followed direction. I would say, I would say that first three months, probably every single day, the thought of doing cocaine came into my mind and it was like, so overwhelming where no amount of, uh, thinking could get out of it. And so what was I told action, right? Call my, my, uh, mentor, call people in recovery. And I did that against my better judgment because I didn't, you know, like you said, like, I don't, it's not easy. It's not, it's not enjoyable, right. To pick up this phone weighs a thousand pounds sometimes. Right. But every time I did, I said, Hey, I'm thinking about Coke today. Yeah. That's all I wanted to really. And, and like, that's it. You know, the conversation goes on from there. I think that's, that's, that, what a lot of people at least i missed in the beginning of of sobriety is making that connection between when you're spinning out talking about it well i can tell you anthony i can be around
Speaker 3alcohol um in any context and not be triggered really i'm not sure if i can still be around a pile of coke yeah uh yeah i'm not sure like uh i used to have a joke like if tom brady and giselle bungeon a bunch and asked me to like come back and do coke with them i probably wouldn't be able to say no man the reality is if a ham sandwich asked me to come back and do coke with him i probably i couldn't say no so like so i still um and i'm not always comfortable with the i guess i'll be an addict for the rest of my life kind of language that some people use but uh yeah i'm not like i'm okay with saying like for those who are recovered from heroin we don't ask them to be in front of heroin or we don't expect that they can be um stay safe around heroin right that i imagined and that's the same for me so like uh i still remember what uh like scientifically exact escape it was to do that drug and uh heroin no no no no coke yeah um i've done heroin it sucks yeah so like and again it's pretty good my behavior was so junky i cannot claim to be a drug snob even cokeheads are such drug snobs like crack i would never do
Speaker 2crap yeah yeah or meth you're a tweaker dude never but all day and all night and like
Speaker 3nosebleeds yeah of course yeah everywhere you go oh my god allergies yeah you know yeah um that's and that's something i've come to appreciate uh in recovery is that um it doesn't really matter what kind of drug you do uh we can all relate to the being brought to our knees and and the struggle of recovery um something else that i'm grateful for in recovery is that i understand cravings in general better um because i still um we call it addict behavior or but i'm like a total cokehead when it comes to pizza popcorn chips m m's attractive young women like i will just i will just throw away my future and think of how can i hoard this how can i get more of this than i'm entitled to you know with people it's kind of you know that would be an affair or they'll be flirting with somebody with um pizza for example if there's three people and four pieces of pizza i mean my brain goes cokehead where it's like i need to eat the first one so fast so that you know i can claim i can i can get that second piece before anyone yeah yeah yeah same with popcorn or chips i can't really put one piece of popcorn chip in my mouth i have to get like the maximum pile of tea in my hand and
Speaker 2then open my mouth as big as i can it's the same reason when you go to like recovery meetings and you people are spilling coffee all over the place right yeah because we fill up the coffee cup yes right to the top and it's like how can i get the maximum amount of coffee this is my last coffee ever you know it's actually a good way to live um in that that state of mind where this could be my
Speaker 3last coffee well i mean there's yeah and so like everything we're talking about today uh and and we get to like the the the the final chapter is like there's a healthy way to do things and an unhealthy way to do things there's a healthy healthy reason for doing things and there's an unhealthy reason for doing things right so like um being an and yelling uh over like the tdc being late unhealthy yelling when um uh your feelings are really hurt by somebody or someone's being mean to your child or something healthy right and so um i look i try to look at the world like that now um and it's a less judgmental way of looking at the world it's not right and wrong right you're right and i'm wrong or i'm right and you're wrong or what he's doing is wrong um i i enjoy on my best days i enjoy looking at the world through the lens of is it healthy or unhealthy because there's a lot more nuance and there's a lot more um room to
Speaker 2over when i look at the world like that yeah i think uh for me it's like yeah the defects of character i always a lot of people didn't like that that terminology i don't yeah you're one of
Speaker 3those people yeah i'm one of those people that um what do you what do you prefer i don't know but
Speaker 2keep going i think just it's important to know for me what keeps coming up right so i can label it yeah because then i'm less harsh on myself then i can change it going forward i think when you get sober the space between emotion and behavior gets greater and greater right because there's always a there's always a space right ttc bus driver is late and then doesn't seem to care or apologize right something like he should be apologizing to me right doesn't mean that i'm a prince meanwhile he just blew his tire on the 401 and waited three hours right we don't think like that the gap between i'm gonna rip this guy's head up like i'm upset and angry and i'm gonna say something to this guy gets bigger and bigger yeah when i'm more emotionally regulated my nervous system is more regulated and how do i do that well recovery is a practice right and i'm not perfect either i lose it all the time on people or um things but what i can do now is sort of recognize that i'm having that thing for me lately it's what is it lately i i get really judgy yeah i see somebody do something yeah and i immediately resent it's it comes down to resentments right it always comes down to that's the thing that makes us relapse when i relapsed this last time i resented myself i was resenting myself for like having these and i wasn't telling anyone about it i'll see somebody in my elevator this is coming to my head right now that has like a uh rolex style watch yep and immediately i'm like this guy like top of the world eh must be not because and it's
Speaker 3because of my insecurity with the money thing yeah as if he doesn't look at you and think the same thing right no dude dude i can this is absolutely relatable go so you don't you don't rip his head off i don't you don't attack him but what behavior do you do exactly great question and that's exact
Speaker 2it's this self-deprecating yeah you like punching yourself in the face that should have been me or just how dare him not hold the elevator for that lady or you know what i mean just like immediately and then it's like i don't even know what's the behavior it's like i just resentment just resentment in my chest how i've had it or you take it out on somebody else going forward how i've explained it to me is like
Speaker 3in that scenario it would be like look at him he's such a prick he's so entitled he works on bay street he like he went to private school um someone ought to teach him a lesson i'm going to teach him a lesson wait i'll probably lose because i suck and so it rotates from i'm going to attack him hurt him too i'm i'm hurting myself right like and that's where it always yeah and and that's where like i'm gonna rob a bank or i'm gonna shoot the prime minister or i'm gonna you know uh you know shoot my the athlete who who lost the game for me um it eventually rotates to i'm worthless i'm a bum i could never even do that right and so that's how that's how that cycle works for me it happened to me um it might have been two days ago where i was picking up um skis from my boss that had been like tuned and waxed at sporting life now i should have known going to sporting life that this is the preppy preppy white boy preppy white boy like heaven and so um i should have known that my feelings of inadequacy would be um triggered there and there was a guy again same thing like look at me i was wearing a vest i was wearing i mean i was like i basically looked the same as this guy but to me it was he had it so easy he had he never had to work for anything in his life this story he just he went to ucc the like the prestigious boys school he went to bay street and the the deal was that we were both at sporting life 15 minutes before closing and everyone was trying to rush to get their stuff done and uh i arrived slightly before him and it was kind of like is he in line is he not and to me it was like this is going can i curse is that okay yeah yeah this is gonna bud the line because he because he's so entitled yeah and i am just gonna like and i just just stood like kind of like like like a brick house with the executioner face and um so did i make a scene no but um so i was able to get a space between the thought and the the the unhealthy reaction yeah now what we're trying to the next level of sobriety is trying to get some space between the thought and the the the feeling the anger the um i'm not good enough so like and just that internal dialogue that inner critic the inner critic so um so i think that um yeah the next the next um the next uh level level up and the the the final boss on the next level is um getting space between you and
Speaker 2that inner critic and it's also like huh i'm really angry right now that's that's funny and you just kind of watch the anger go by that's the bruce lee level yeah that's like it's you know and it's a leaf floating i'm sure you've had moments like that though right like i've had moments in my recovery where i'm like i'm just kind of watching myself be a jackass in my own head yeah and i'm like wow i really want to fucking freak out right now and i'm just like huh crazy i'll tell you i'll tell
Speaker 3you that um my favorite moment was in recovery uh and maybe this will be the last story i tell um it or are we joe rogan rules are we do you have four hours here okay i don't have that okay i don't know how they do it yeah you haven't rented the studio that long okay uh i did a this was outside of recovery i went to a kind of inner child retreat or like a meditation retreat where we um forgave our parents for abandoning us like we just looked at shame from like what we've done wrong you all the way to that first time where you were crying in the crib and your parents left you there in order to teach you how to like sleep training and you learned that you're not good enough for their love right so so we just we analyze shame and the inner critic all the way down to that moment like when we were tiny babies and then we built it up again and forgave ourselves and tried to repair it and so i came out of this meditation retreat of course it was in california right i didn't have my phone and i got i got in the plane and i was like i was like hey anything interesting happened last week and the guy next to me he's like you didn't hear about philip philip seymour hoffman od'ing you didn't hear about the seattle seahawks winning the super bowl i was like no i've been i've been without my phone at a meditation retreat and he said oh i'm so jealous uh i go to an art fair which is like a big convention hall with booths where people sell million dollar paintings but it could be like the plunger convention it just looks the same a guy comes into the um the snack bar and sneaks past everyone goes right up to the front and i tell him on the shoulder and i'm like no you're you're putting on the red rambo uh bandana at this point yeah right and this guy's like uh i tell him so i'm sorry there's a line he's like oh well i'm here now and so i and so i might have asked him one more time but then i said fine fuck you and just stood there i said fuck you and he turned around and he didn't like slap me in the face or punch me in the face but it was somewhere like in between and i was like oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry and so he just struck me right in the face in front of everyone wow and i just stood there and i stood there like and i didn't even flinch and everyone's like and so that was waiting for
Speaker 2you to just like yeah something to happen right or how about lose my cool yeah that's what i mean
Speaker 3yeah or um no i just i did not move and i just kept looking at him and oh man i haven't been that like elite zen level that's like sealed like standing up people came up to me they're like bro how did you like someone actually asked me and i of course i said i just came back like i said the most obnoxious yeah yeah oh it's just it's how i am no no no worse i just finished a meditation retreat in california but um i think that um i'm glad we had this conversation today because i'm glad i was able to remind myself of that success story where um i actually lived that cliche where like true serenity is being in an argument knowing you're right knowing you're correct and just not like fighting
Speaker 2to the death over it just walking away yeah that's true serenity yeah it is being the bigger man not not acting on your emotions right anger comes up i don't need to become an angry guy right
Speaker 3like like mastery like self-mastery um for me it's difficult enough that i can spend the rest of my life just working on self-mastery and not being master of the universe
Speaker 2yeah yeah or sheriff of the universe that's that's my problem right um yeah we got a few more minutes okay um i was gonna ask you too do you do the thing where i have this thing where when when that does happen the judging or the story spinning of this guy and you know what it's usually not you're right though it's usually not just somebody standing there that i'm like look at this motherfucker he's usually done something
Speaker 3that i think is wrong you've decided he's about to do something yeah or that but it's like for
Speaker 2the guy that was in the elevator that's jumping him and because this happens all the time to me but the guy that recently he didn't um he i was like dragging something and he didn't like help me with it right so it's like yeah there's he's not living according to my script he wasn't the
Speaker 3world's greatest boy scout exactly in that moment on that day and so that then it triggers all this
Speaker 2yeah look and then i'm judging and i'm doing this do you do the thing too where you start having arguments in your head with him like you're like if he says this i'm gonna say this and then i it's all i do okay okay it's all i do if we sound
Speaker 3fucking crazy right now like that's no i don't know i don't and i and and and and and i think that people in recovery from addiction and who don't have addiction issues i'm i'm certain they can relate to this yeah where there's and it's like it's totally relatable when there's unfinished business for for for people out there with their dad with their ex and they get into those like those devastating one-liners they could say i'm gonna get them yeah i'm gonna get them with this and uh and and you just in your in the movie in your mind you're clint eastwood you know and um yeah and then and i mean we won't call that the healthy version but there's an even more unhealthy version where we um we get into these um imagined arguments with people that where resentments like over like family disagreements or whatever these are random people that come on the side on the on the subway on the on the on the train and in on the road in front of you oh yeah so like driving a car you don't start getting into like a revenge fantasy with someone who like um cuts you off or even if you think if you think someone's about to cut you off or you see someone who changes lanes without um signaling signaling as it turns out anthony like what helps for me is that i'm not going to be able to do anything about it i'm going to be able to when when someone does that when they swerve or change lanes i say i sometimes do that because chances are i've done that like on the same commute just like five minutes earlier i'm not perfect and um what we do in those moments is we judge those other people on their worst moments right or even or we decide we we we guess what their worst moment is yeah then we judge them on their worst moment and then we judge them on their worst moment and then we judge them on their worst moment and then we judge them on their worst moment and then we judge them on their worst moment bro everything is a practice being romantic is a practice being hot as a practice things you you think you had to be born with no everything's a practice and i and uh not being judgmental not um not getting into magic fights like everything else is a practice and so the good news is you're not cursed to have these uh horror movies playing in your head all the time the bad news is it is a practice and it takes action
Speaker 2yeah love it well said um let's end with this if you could say something to yourself in early
Speaker 3recovery what do you think would you would say wow um i would say you know the cliches are true one day at a time uh and um your only job is staying healthy today uh you will continue to worry about your credit rating your job your relationships uh whether people think you're rich or not whether people think you're bald or not just um what's to stay healthy just for today and because anthony um i want that early recovery ray to live i'm 48 i want him to live to 98 that's another 50 years and uh so we can take this thing slow you know 50 years is a long time to score all those cash and prizes stay healthy right now just for today i would love it if that ray got a sponsor got a home group did service but look if he can just get to a meeting today if he can just get to a meeting and stay healthy today that's all he actually has
Speaker 2to do is just stay healthy today love it well said ray thanks so much for coming down buddy hell yes dude appreciate you give me a hug
Speaker 5thanks for listening please help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content the discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only this content is not a substitute for professional medical advice addiction treatment or therapy if you or someone you know is struggling with addiction please consult a licensed physician addiction specialist or mental health professional you are no longer alone if you or someone you know is struggling with addiction please consult a licensed physician or professional medical specialist or mental health professional you are no longer alone
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