My South African identity

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, it's me again Victoria Uwonghunda bringing you the comm from the BBC World Service coming Africa for stories that matter to you. If you missed the last episode, then what were you doing? I'm only kidding guys, but you don't need to worry because you can check it out anytime and the same goes for all of our other episodes. But what you will have missed is that I am standing in for Kim for now and this is my last episode at the helm. Kim is back next week. Now to the matter at hand, we are heading south to look into a topic brought to us by one of my fellow BBC presenters. This is the comb. He needs the comb. The comb, no. Neither comb. The comb. Carney Carnegie, this lovely colleague of mine. Welcome to the comb. Thank you. I know you and obviously. I know you. Yeah, obviously people listen to the world service who know your name and obviously your lovely voice. Thank you. Or the off chance that somebody has been under a rock and they don't know who you are. Just a little bit tell us about yourself. Who are you? Who is Carney? Yes. So Carney sharp is so weird, right? Because it's like a totally different identity to what I was originally. You lose a sense of yourself when you get like married, right? Well, isn't that controversial anyway? So it was Carnegie Pillay and I grew up in South Africa during a pathway in South Africa. And my parents, my grandparents were born in South Africa. My great grandparents weren't there from indentured labor background. We've been there since 1860. Carney is one of the million or so South Africans whose ancestors came mainly from India and a system known as indentured labor. British colonists literally shipping people all over the colonies to work on sugarcane, tea or cotton plantations. They were called indentured, meaning people who were forced into work. So in effect, it was a way of getting around the abolition of slavery in 1807. This movement was only partly voluntary, filled with empty promises at the time, lowering people into taking up the deal to walk overseas but not telling them the truth. That to return back to the homelands they came from will be virtually impossible for them to do. Today, South Africa is home to the largest population of people of Indian descent on the continent. For Carney, she's often found herself explaining their unique history because of how she looks. You know when people used to ask me when I came to England, so if you see me visually, I look South Indian. And if they said, "Do you come from India or Sri Lanka?" And I'm like, "No, no, I'm South African." And quite defensively, who would say then they're like, "Yes, but you look Indian." "Of course I look Indian." And then you'd go into the history. You know, I've never been to India. I've been to Delhi Airport and that's about it. I don't reject my Indian roots, but I'm definitely not Indian because an Indian is an Indian citizen. I am African first and of Indian descent, I'm happy to accept. And I guess that's why we are here this week. We want to talk about this issue of identity in a country like South Africa. That is so complex. Why has this exactly been on your mind lately? Yeah, I mean, you know, South Africa, I've been saying this for a very long time now. There has been a tension in KwaZulu Natal, which is where I grew up and which is where Durban is, the port of Durban, between people of Indian descent and people of African descent. It's a subject that is really sensitive within South Africa. It's almost as if they don't want to admit it. People talk about it, but because race has been such a big part of South Africa's history, people seldom want to go there. And over the past few years, you have felt that tension because very visually in South Africa, if you go to KZN and that's where South Africans of Indian descent, a lot of them reside, you know, they have done pretty well for themselves financially. They've had arguably a better education system because they set up their own schools, etc. Also at the end of apartheid, lots of the companies that were owned by or run by white South Africans, when they were going to employ people, you've got people of Indian descent getting the jobs. So they were at the top of the pecking order, right? And that would have caused resentment. So what happens in a system that is unjust, that has a history of injustice and that sort of injustice carries on into a post-democratic country, you see resentment against one race. And you can understand why that happens. And that tension sort of exacerbated and ended up in the riots that we experienced recently. And you could feel, and people were speaking about that tension. Recently, in this case, it means July 2021. South Africa was in the midst of the worst violence the country had seen since the end of apartheid. These recent violence were centered in KwaZulu Natal. As a result, some people used this as an opportunity to inflame racial tensions. With racism allegations, as social media continues to circulate videos of racial attacks, communities from both predominantly Indian and Black areas are now calling for their voices. In fact, one of you got in touch with us about it a few weeks ago on our email address, [email protected]. Thanks, Neil, who said, "The recent violence in turmoil in South Africa has been very worrying and disturbing to those of us living abroad. As a South African of Indian descent, the fact that some of the violence was due to anti-Indian sentiment has been of particular concern to me." And while we are not going to go into much detail about the violence itself, we are going to delve into the questions of identity for one of the communities at the heart of it. Many say they are proudly South African, but how have they identified over the years and even now are they Indian or South Africans first? Karani has been speaking to two people close to her about it. So the first guest is McGendry. She and I went to university together and we sort of think along the same lines and we constantly speak about this identity crisis within the South African context for the past 20 years. And McGendry's married to Dingy Tully and he's Black African and they have two children who are mixed race. And because of our constant conversations, we'll sometimes call each other and we'll talk for hours. And the second guest is my niece, who's the next generation from us. Hello. Hey. Hi, can you hear me clearly? Yes, we can. I can't call you McGendry. What's the time that you can? That's my full name, but I'll allow the Megs. However you want to call me, it's fine. It's irrelevant when it comes to intimate friends. Everybody else has to call me by my full name. So like me, McGendry's roots in South Africa go back over a hundred years and our identity or how we identify is an integral part of who we are because of where we're born and because of where our ancestors have been born too. My name's McGendry Pele. I'm a descendant of indentured labourers. Very interestingly enough, on my mother's side, she was born in South Africa. Her mother was born in South Africa and my great grandparents, both of them were born in South Africa. Her father came from India in the early 1900s. And then on my father's side, my grandfather ended up leaving his home when he was a goat herd and a lot of the goats were being eaten by the tiger and his uncle didn't believe him and beat him up severely and he thought I'm out of dodge and he left because he'd rather live. And so he arrived in South Africa also in the early 1900s, but my grandmother's mother, so my great-grandmother, came from Mauritius. This has been a subject we have been speaking about for years since the end of apartheid, right? The way in which we identify. How do you identify? Are you happy with South African Indian descent or is that just too complex? So in general, I'm generally a South African. When people then want to know a little bit more, let me say that since university and my understanding of black consciousness, I've identified as black, as a black South African. And I am of Indian descent. I reject being called an Indian because to be Indian means I'm from India. And the apartheid classification system very deliberately separated people into these different groups. Because of the apartheid classification and the oppression and the separation that was designed to keep us apart and not talking to each other and not cooperating with each other. So my rejection of being called Indian is really about my rejection of apartheid and apartheid classification. And I just wanted to explain that black consciousness thing because we are of the same generation. We went to campus together and I also identified as being black for many, many years. I think probably less so now because of this whole thing about the question of what is black and what is black African, etc. So I'm having to reanalyze, reassess that. So black was defined by Steve Beko who was a black consciousness activist. And basically black to Beko was not limited to Africans but also included so called Asians, Indians and colored South Africans, i.e. mixed race. So that's why we identified as being black. And therefore any enhancement of tribalistic, racialistic or any form of sectional outlooks is abhorred by us. We hate it and we seek to destroy it. But if I can add to that, the classification system actually called us non-European. So there was European and there was non-European. There was white and there was non-white. So we were only defined in relation to whiteness and white supremacy and the system of apartheid. What it meant to stand on the edge of the beachfront and see an ocean that's right before you and only white bodies allowed to be on that sand. You weren't even allowed to step on the sand. You had to be on the other side of it to really be in urgent need of the toilet. And you can't go to that toilet because it's not for you. It says white only and you were othered. You were othered in every space. You can't sit on a bus stop when you're tired or waiting for a bus. There were separate buses for us. So our experience of separation and oppression, but also seeing how our parents were treated by the authorities. It really helps you to understand and put things in perspective. I can only imagine how black children, African children would have felt having to see that and experience that as well. But I've experienced some of that as a child, as a teenager, where I had to be constantly reminded of what I am not. There's a group of us like you and I and a whole lot of people like us back home who want to identify as black and African and accept that we're of Indian descent. But still you're rejected within the South African context because there's another narrative happening now where people have, in what should have been a post-racial society, there's this push about us being Indian. We've come more than 20 years after a path light and our identity has been questioned again. And we're being told that we're Indian and there's people like you and I going, "Hang on a second. We're not Indian." We've said that during a path light South Africa. We said that after, you know, 10 years after a path light South Africa. But suddenly we've forced into being Indian again. Is that the place you're at now? No. I will always reject that classification no matter how it changes for other people. No matter how they see me, it's fine. That is their perception and their lack of understanding or historical knowledge. So Karni, this is a conversation that you've had with McGantry over and over, but going back to the system that made South Africa what it is today. They are part of that system. As you mentioned, they were dividing people according and obviously the black population will be at the very bottom. Yes. What kind of conversations have you had or are you having with black South Africans who I imagine will be saying, "But Karni, hang on. There was a time where you are above me in the pecking order and there must be some kind of resentment or even pushbacks." So, you know, I think there is pushback and what's questioned is, yes, you were higher above in a pecking order, so you benefited more. And you can accept that because we weren't as disenfranchised as black people of African descent. Absolutely not. But remember, within the category of white and other, we belonged in that category. So psychologically, the trauma may not have been completely the same, but it was traumatic anyway. I'm happy to be challenged, of course. It's really healthy to have those debates, but it's also unhealthy to put us into one sort of community as a monolith and say, "You are Indian, so you should go back to India." Well, you've never been. We've never been. Parents, grandparents, that's an unhealthy conversation, and then it shuts down and then it causes that racial divide. Because what we have seen in a post-apartheid South Africa, again over the past maybe 10 years, is that South Africans of Indian descent have been identifying with being Indian again. This is where I want to bring in my niece, Nirvanya, who's part of the younger generation, the next one from the likes of McGendry and I. These are South Africans who grew up in the post-apartheid era and didn't experience that same history of oppression and were not part of a movement to eradicate apartheid. This generation never confronted racism like the way we did and have arguably a slightly different approach. Hello. Hey. Hi. Hi, Victoria's listening to you. Hello. Just remind us how old you are because I'm a terrible aunt, I can never remember. Take a guess. 32. No, 30. So this is my sister's daughter. Oh, lovely to meet you. Terrible. Thank you and you too. Just tell us about your identity and how you identify within the South African context. I would identify myself as South African and my race group would be Indian. I think I use both of those identities to mesh and amalgamate to form who I am. It's a lot of South African culturally as my nationality, but then it's also Indian from my family and ancestors and traditions and cultures also that have been passed down through my grandparents. That's really interesting you say about, you know, Indian as a race group because Indians are, you know, are essentially nationals and citizens of India. So why do you feel like, you know, that that is the race group that you belong within? Post-apartheid, we have had to identify the different race groups in the country in order to provide equal opportunities for people who are previously disadvantaged. I don't fall into any other race groups that South Africa has. I'm not white and I'm not black and I'm not colored. Neither am I Asian, so Indian is the best foot for me also because my family's ancestors were Indian. Or of Indian descent, yeah. Isn't that interesting that in a post-apartheid South Africa we're being forced into race groups again? Do you find that problematic or not? I think it can be, but I think it depends on the context of the situation and the person who is analyzing the situation. I don't think it's problematic for me because I think my personality allows me to embrace different cultures. I think it's just your good upbringing. I just personally think it's just because you've been brought up so well. I think it's also a lot about what South Africa stands for because we identify ourselves as a rainbow nation. And while that image or ideal of the rainbow nation has been challenged by quite a few people over the years and more recently, Nivanya says it's through her workplace that she tries to put this into practice. So the people that I tend to work with or sister work come from rural South African areas. So they're not exposed to many people of different cultures, I think. So I think it's harder for them to accept someone who doesn't look like them or speak like them or think like them. I think by me being accepting an understanding of that about them, I can invite them into my space and allow them to learn about my identity. Do you think that that is a helpful way in where South Africa should go? Do we do enough of that back home of opening ourselves up to each other? That's the question, right? Not at all. Not as much as we need to. Why do you think that is? I think people are afraid of what can happen when you allow somebody who's not like you to learn more about you. And a lot of people are scarred by what has happened in the past. There's a lot of trauma that needs to be healed before we can be openly accepting without fear. There are barriers that we have put up to protect ourselves from the pain that we have experienced in the past. And I think if everybody keeps their barriers up, then we are not going to heal. Do you feel like with the current situation in South Africa and the tension in KZN that we've been feeling now for many, many years, which arguably culminated recently? Do you feel that there's a tension between the black African community and people of Indian descent? I don't feel it on a daily basis. I don't know if it's because of the people that I surround myself with, but I feel it when politicians make bold statements that I'm meant to segregate races. And then how did those political statements then impact the day-to-day social cohesion or disrupt the social cohesion of these race groups? It is disruptive. I don't know if it is on a conscious level or unconscious level, but I was having a conversation with a co-worker after the riots. And he was black and he was telling me about the statements that a politician had made to segregate Indians and blacks in a specific area in Khozulu Natal. And he was getting very upset by then because he felt like he could relate to what the politician was saying. And I felt hurt because I felt like he was telling it to me, and the people that he was talking about looked like me. They didn't behave like me or speak like me or think like me because they had done terrible things, but they looked like me. And it was almost as if he was blaming me for something that somebody else had done. He didn't say it outright, but I could feel the tension in the air when he was explaining how he was feeling, and I was hurt by it. But I could also understand where he was coming from because he was being told by somebody that he admired that people who looked a certain way were dangerous. If I may, there's something you mentioned about these barriers that people have erected around themselves, either to protect themselves or because they just want to be with themselves and their own people. How do you, as a young South African today, how do you think these barriers can be dismantled? It has to be with kindness and exposure, and it can't be forced. It needs to happen on a day-to-day basis where people are exposed to people who are not like them. But also, in that interaction, it has to be accepting and welcoming, and the differences have to be embraced. I think Nirvanya is absolutely right. We have plenty of healing to do back home. Unfortunately, these things repair over time, and what's crucial to this healing process is a stable country, socially, politically, and economically, and we still have a long way to go. I also would like to make this point. The current tensions back home may call into question the very notion of who we are, but we'd be foolish to accept the definition of who we are by others because of what's happening in South Africa at the moment. I, for one, will always hang on to identifying as Black South African, and I will accept of Indian descent if it's that important. But what better way to express this than in this recent poem written by McGendry? I'm a so-called Indian in a so-called New South Africa, born in Africa, descendant of indentured laborers who paid for their freedom in sweat and blood and years of slavery, classified non-European, non-white Indian during apartheid, taught to despise my mother's tongue, my mother's ways, my mother's gods, and goddesses. It took a Steve Biko, though, to bring me back to my Black roots. Thanks to Nivanya and McGendry for sharing their views and to Carney for bringing us such insightful conversations. If, like Neil, you want to suggest a topic we should be looking into, then please do. Email us at [email protected] and, in fact, get in touch about anything you like where all is for your feedback. Next time, Kim Chakaneta is back exploring the opportunities and dangers in the recent cryptocurrency boom. Before we wrap up, though, thanks for having me and thank you, as always, for listening. This episode was produced by Carney Sharp, Rob Wilson, Mary Goodheart, and me, Victoria Uwongunda. Rob also did the sound design. Pierce Lynch is our editor, and Danny Cox is our studio manager.