My Parents Got Divorced, So Why Am I Still in the Middle?

hi hi hi esther so this is a a very interesting starting point for me because i think it's your mother who reached out on your behalf yes um and it's a gesture that i think you welcomed i did great so yeah i suggest we listen to her voice message sure and then we'll take it from there and we will know why she reached out to on your behalf and what she was hoping to gift you by creating this opportunity how does that sound yeah sounds great okay great let's listen i think they all thought they had a pretty good childhood their friends thought we were like the perfect family and i hid a lot of stuff and my kids saw a lot you know but nobody talks about it in our family at least in hindsight i think my husband was really strict and it was because she was the oldest and she was had the loudest mouth and he wanted to be respected and she would go at him and i would be in the middle and i would always take her side because i just remember one conversation where he i don't even remember the meaning of it we were at dinner and he said well i'm going to take your car away for three years and i was like i'm not going to take your car away for three years and i was like well that's just flipping ridiculous you know what i mean i have to go to work she has to bring the kids to crew but he never talked like that to the other two he did once to my youngest daughter and she told them never again and he never like he knows who he can get away with pushing their buttons and he obviously could with me so i don't know how much of it is pent up childhood anxiety right but we never talked about it i mean i think one of the reasons i got divorced was so the cycle would end and i my grandchildren wouldn't have to hear him disrespect me i said one thing about her dad yelling at her and she just looked at me and said we can't talk about that and i just never talked about it again right everybody's perceptions are different and what i remember would be different from what she remembers as a 18 year old kid you know her dad was awesome to her you know he did everything for his kids and still does he'd build you a bookcase but he couldn't tell you he loved you as much you know what i mean it's just who he is and we're all different i couldn't build the bookcase but i could tell him i love him you know ball is here and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at starbucks it's the one we've been waiting for so whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks your favorite fall flavors are back at starbucks the one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long or find a new favorite like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks so i watch your face as you're listening it's like an editing process this i agree with that i'm not sure this i totally disagree with your face is saying yay maybe nay i didn't realize that it would be a roller coaster of emotions or yeah perplex you know perplexity and then total agreement but i don't know from listening to mom why you are here so maybe we start with that i understand a little bit about a background your relationship with your father her ex-husband that is fraught at this moment but you can give me a little bit more precision why would she want you to be here what did you come for and what is your question so i recently turned 40 years old a few days ago my parents were pretty much married for almost 40 years three years ago they got divorced i have felt like for as long as i can remember it really was this triangle of a relationship with me my mom and my dad i was always their esther perel i really was their therapist throughout their whole relationship i was always the one who would say the things that my mom was scared to say to my dad i was always the one who my mom told way too many details about their relationship to i continued to always see myself as this peacemaker within my family but i think my two siblings would disagree they think that i'm like the rebel rouser but i think my goal is to just always have like genuine relationships with my parents and right now i feel like i can't have a genuine relationship with my father i have my own little family i have an adoring loving husband i have two little daughters and our relationship is really built on this complete love and respect that i never witnessed from my father to my mom and my dad and i have a lot of love and respect for my father and my mother growing up and i never thought that i would have so still to this day you know i feel like my mom looks at me as like the wise sage who continues to give her advice and yeah she my parents had all of their kids when they were very young they've known each other since they were 16 um they were the only people that each other ever dated and ever really knew and to this day when i interact with both of them i kind of get the sense that they're stuck in this rut of being 16 year olds that's how they continue to fight and they're almost like emotionally stunted in a way both of them both of them in a way definitely my father much more so my mom seems to be the one who's always at least willing to do the hard work the dirty work of having a therapist trying to make herself better trying to ultimately be happy and be at peace with herself in a way that my father does in a very roundabout way um a very external way as long as everything looks good everything feels good inside and your question in being here today is what good question i kept thinking about this one question and i think even over the course of the past few weeks it's really changed i think if i were to make it really specific at this point it would be how do i continue to have a genuine relationship with my father specifically um and how do i manage how do i manage my relationship with both of my newly divorced parents but your newly divorced parents have been living an invisible divorce for decades before they have in their own home so they're not not newly divorced no they're not and they are as attached as they were before they may be legally divorced but they fight no less they're still in each other's brains lives nervous systems and the like yes definitely so in fact your situation is not that new it's true the thing that they were always so good at was pretending like everything was okay you had to be deep in you know like deeply a part of the family to know the ins and outs of the family and to know the ins and outs of the family and to know how my parents operated and when things were not good and most of the time they were that's not true half of the time they were really not good okay so give me a tiny bit of info about what actually happens and what happens between you and your father it's changed a lot even over the course of the past two weeks to a month i do feel like over the past three years i've been grieving the loss of the relationship that i once had with him most recently a few weeks ago he came to visit me and we were texting each other beforehand and kind of decided to just pretend like everything was normal for my daughters for everybody involved and it was a lovely a lovely time um my dad and his new wife came over and we had a great day actually but the weekend before that we got into an explosive blowout fight at my nephew's birthday party and it seems to ebb and flow but kind of always come back to this place where i'm holding in so much anger what did you what did you explode about so all of the things that i keep trying to get him to answer and keep feeling not satisfied about mostly i saw a therapist a few years ago to figure out how to let go of this idea of holding my dad accountable for what a bad husband he was to my mother he now has this kind of new fancy shiny life and this new wife and seems to not acknowledge any of the pain that he's caused in the past. And that's been this journey that I've gone through of realizing that maybe I can't hold him accountable at all. He kind of takes no accountability. Because he says what? He says, I loved your mom deeply, dearly, and sweetly? No, no. He's never used the word love to me or to my mom. And yeah, growing up, it was always kind of this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde situation. He had very inconsistent moods. But why, if I may, why is it important for you that he acknowledge to you that he was a shitty husband? Who's put you to this task? Why does he need to be accountable to you about, if at all, he should maybe be to his ex? But what is it that you're wanting or needing from him by asking him to admit to you that he didn't treat his wife well? Would that justify the 20-something years of free therapy you provided? And what is in it for you? I do feel like I do my mother's dirty work a lot. And she is in my head. And I've realized only really recently that when I've had so much pent-up anger that comes out in chaotic, kind of crazy ways in public situations. That you don't know whose feelings you're actually monitoring? Yeah, yeah. I can't separate it. So that's a very different issue. That means the question is not how do I hold my dad accountable? The question is how do I sort out? What are my feelings for my mother's feelings? Yes, that is definitely a big piece of it. I think the other piece is the fact that I used to be so close with my dad. He used to come visit all the time. He used to text me all the time and be very much involved in my life with my young daughters and my husband, who he has a lot in common with. And it really has been this process of letting go and realizing how much of my relationship with my father, was actually my mother protecting me from my father. When my dad has really hurt me in the past three years, and I've let him know that he's really hurt me, he just kind of cuts ties. There's no follow-up. I am always the one who reaches back out to him with an apology or always wanting a little more from him. So yeah, so he used to be so involved. And it was like this fading away, this slipping away of this. Father figure that I used to know. Have you asked him? I have, yeah. Have you asked him or have you complained? Good question. I've confronted him. Yeah, that's not the same. Yeah. Right. You've confronted him as in you were a shitty husband, now you're a shitty father? So to speak? Yeah. Or have you been able to say, I would love to see you more often. I really enjoy when you're here and it means a lot to me. I feel like I've tried the whole range of possible ways of getting at him that I could ever think of. It started a few years ago, me kind of calling him and trying to talk to him one-on-one or driving to his house and trying to have conversations with him. And then it turned into me trying to FaceTime him or text him. Later, when kind of all of that seemed to slip away, I would try. Talk to him one-on-one at family events. And that's kind of. But when you say conversations, FaceTime, talk to him, it's what kind of conversations? It's, you usually approach him to tell him your disappointments? Yes, definitely. So are you surprised that he would have less contact with you if he anticipates a scolding every time he sees you? Definitely, there was one time about a year ago where as I drove to see him, I was like, I just have, I always try to condense it down to its most simplest form. I'm like, I just have one message to him today. And that is that I deeply miss him. So at this one party, I tried to just say that. And with tears in my eyes and couldn't really get it out. I said, I just want you to know that how much I miss you, how much my daughters miss you. And he just didn't have a reaction. And it's been this long heartbreak of realizing that he had nothing to say in the moment. Even when I tried my most compassionate version of trying to get him back. He sees his sisters more? Good question. He would see me and my brother the most. So I'm the oldest, then my brother and my littlest sister. It's been really interesting to see how they have really different perceptions than I do. Of my parents and their divorce and the relationships that we have now with both of them. All three of us are now in agreement that he has taken a big step back and he doesn't really have much of an interest in his grandchildren. And what do people think? He has a new partner. He's into a new life. He sees her grandchildren. What's the understanding of why he has stepped back? I think, yeah, I'm always jumping into, you know, there was a while where I went down this whole Google search black hole of diagnosing him with all these different things. I was like, maybe he's bipolar or a narcissist or a covert narcissist. So I'm always looking for a reason like that because I feel like my whole life I saw them. All the mood changes and the mood swings. And I was the one who knew about their relationship more than my other siblings. So I've always been the one who's like the most invested. But their understanding of my dad slipping away, I think we're all in the same boat that, yeah, he started this new life. He kind of is holding on to this one person for dear life at this point. And after his divorce with my mom. Slipped into this really dark place. And I think we'll do whatever it takes to never get back to that place. So I think he had to kind of push us away. How do you connect with her? She's incredible. She's amazing. She's so open and compassionate. And she has two daughters of her own who are younger and she doesn't have any grandchildren on that side. I think I've learned only recently. The story that my father has told her about our lives and my mother. And it's a very twisted version, in my opinion, of, you know, what we actually all experienced. So that's been hard. I think that's something that I'm finding to be very difficult really recently is coming to the realization about how my father continues to talk about my mother to the people that he's closest with and managing the blowback. That comes with that and trying to protect my mother in the process and trying to kind of fake it till I make it in this new path of a relationship with my father. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. Hate to break it to you, but now that it's August, that means summer is almost over. For some of you, that might be a relief. 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The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or? Or find a new favorite, like the new banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks fall is here and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at starbucks it's the one we've been waiting for so whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks but you asked me how do I have a more sincere and truthful relationship with my dad and then you tell me two weeks ago I had a big blow up with him but it was perfectly truthful there was actually loads of authentic feelings in there there was and then the second time he came to me and we had a beautiful day together and that was equally truthful so your relationship with your dad is not sitting on false premises it may not be as warm and loving and expressive and consistent as you would like it to be but it seems everyone is kind of letting the other one know where they are at and when your dad doesn't know where they are at and when your dad doesn't answer you you know your in your interpretation immediately was here I am bearing my soul coming to you without accusation just from my heart telling you I miss you and you were stunted and why would you think he wouldn't be he was as truthful as he could be actually he's not a person that you ever and you reach out to with the sheer language of emotion never was that's what you said when you say he doesn't or your mom said he doesn't say I love you he builds a bookcase and so to tell him I miss you leaves him rather stumped he has no clue what to answer yeah all to say that this is perfectly truthful it's unpleasant to you it leaves you dissatisfied it leaves you hungry it leaves you lonely that he wouldn't say oh I'm so sorry to hear that or oh I miss you too or oh let's do something about that no and you know him too well to actually uh you don't say I miss you at best you say come next Sunday yes that's been the one and only trick that worked yes that's the one and only trick that worked yes that's the one and only trick that worked yes that's the one and only trick that worked yes that's the one and only trick that worked if you want more from your dad you may have to speak more often in the language of your dad now I am well aware that there are people who would hear this who would instantly say why me why shall I be the one why doesn't he adapt to me so to because you can because you have more latitude because you have more flexibility and because you want and because you should get what you want and be smart about how you get it and if when you say come next week he shows up and it is going well then you will know that you don't tell your dad I miss you hoping he will say I miss you you just tell your dad here is when I want to see you come over yeah that is the part that I've wrestled with that just always feels so unfair that everybody else seems to have to do the work to keep him in our lives you could say why me it's another version why me why do I have to be the one to adapt why do I have to contort myself why do I have to speak his language why do I have to turn myself over you know to maintain to keep him but the other piece is simply you want to see him and you kind of have an idea of how to do it and when you do you actually get to enjoy it well then just do it and not because why do I have to do the work it's because I want to see my dad and when I want to see my dad I need to do a b c d that's kind of what gets him over that's what makes him connect that's what makes him be present that's what and I may be smarter I may have more relational intelligence than him and yeah he's lucky the poor guy that because I make all these initiatives he gets to be see me and his grandchildren but I get to see him because I because I want to I don't have to justify why I want to and those are my needs not my mother's needs I got a different I don't have to differentiate a bit from what is mine and what his mom's and yeah there's something unfair about it like I have to be smarter than him on some level in this area but ultimately it gets justified because it answers my wish and remember I'm not doing this to be nice to him I'm doing this because I want him in my life now why do I want him in my life you know I mean we could spend an hour and analyze why why he matters to you but the main thing is he does and to get more of him you can't serve tomato soup you need to serve carrot soup you know and you can say oh my god I love tomato soup why can't I for once serve him tomato soup if you serve him tomato soup he won't eat at your house if you serve him carrot soup he will what matters to you more it's like own your wish is what I'm saying to you if you own it and and claim it and don't justify it this is a strange thing for me to say me who usually goes looking for complexity I'm totally simplifying this but on some level it's like she actually knows what to do she resents it a little bit because she doesn't think it's fair because she thinks she's spending all her time thinking about how to get him over and he doesn't spend nearly as much time that's the guy and you can diagnose him 10 times it's not going to change so I think you may want to change your google page I think so too yeah yeah it's interesting that it's just such a simple answer or a simple idea I think that is the the route that my brother specifically has taken a little more hands off a little less you know lying awake at three o'clock in the morning overthinking his new relationship how our relationship will go forward and just taking it a little bit more for what it is but your brother has less of your mother's voice inside of him I think that's a good point I think that's a good point I think that's a good point so maybe the challenge for you is in love you love both your parents however they treated each other that you care about each of them and you've spent more energy how to bring him closer to you rather than on some level how to delineate yourself a little bit more from her that's something that I have only started thinking about very recently there was this this moment at this family party where I was screaming at my father my mother was talking to his mother all just kind of desperately trying to get our point across and share our version of the story and have them accept that and it was just this chaotic event and that was that was the thing that led my mother to reach out to you Esther a line that my mother kept saying over the past three years was I just want my family back if I could just get my family back and I feel this big responsibility to prove to her that like we're all still intact we're all still okay what does that mean I want my family back good question in what way she you know Christmas is a few weeks away and she was about to invite my father and his new wife to her house just to literally get us all in the same room again she desperately wants us to sleep over her house and have family holidays like we used to and to have my dad's whole side of his family to talk to her again and because they don't because she initiated the divorce so it's not just her children it's the whole installation that is the big misunderstanding that she initiated the divorce and that's something that My father's new wife even mentioned the other day at this birthday party, I kind of got into it a little bit with her as well. And that is not the truth. My father was the one to repeatedly kick my mother out of the house my whole life. And then he finally kicked her out one last time. And she made the choice to stay away. She was the one who wanted to just take a break and cool things down a little bit. And he was the one who said, I don't do breaks. We're getting a divorce. So even that continues to cause ripple effects in the family. My mother continues to see his side of the family out in public. They kind of live in this small town. And she's called me crying several times, saying that they refuse to look at her or they've. You know, said mean things. This family, we used to all be so intact and we used to all be so close with my dad's whole side of the family. And you don't speak to them anymore either? No, I do. I do. I'm still very close with all of them. And they all ban her because they think she dissolved the family? Yes. I don't know exactly what they think. They're just. A word that my aunt used to describe it recently was, they're all just so. Tribal. They're kind of. Just like how he is kind of clinging to this new woman for dear life. They're doing whatever it takes to kind of protect him. Believe his whole side of the story entirely, even though they were there for so much of the chaos and the confusion growing up. They're really in this protective mode of totally embracing this new woman who's lovely and really protecting my dad at all costs. So. It was tricky going to see his side of the family for Thanksgiving. And all of a sudden, I'm in this room with all those people and didn't even have this thought before I really entered the room. But I was like, oh, my mom called me crying a few days ago about how these people looked at her like she was the devil and refused to make eye contact with her, even though they've known her since she was 16 years old. And now I'm in a room full of all of them. Nobody's asking about my mom. No one seems to care. Everybody is just on the defense. And I love them so much. They're such a huge part of my life. But there's just this big disconnect. This big wall goes up in front of everybody's face whenever I mention my mother. Yeah, she was in the family and now she is no more. Yeah. And when she's no more, she's ejected from the system and she no longer has a. place in the story. And your brother and sister also came? My brother was there. My sister was abroad. But yes, my brother was there. And his experience? He, again, just kind of showed up, rolled with the punches, doesn't do what I do, which is kind of like talk to my aunts and uncles and like little groups and try and bring my mom up just naturally, not intentionally. Intentionally or kind of. Of course, intentionally. No, no. You bring her up intentionally because you want to check and you want to test and you want to verify your assumptions. You want to see, you know, what will it take. And you're going to sometimes get pushed back. So my question is to you. It's like you go to visit them. You have a good idea that in their tribal tradition. When you're in, you're in. When you're out, you're out. You don't do breaks. You don't do transitions. You don't do middle grounds. You don't do past. Mm-hmm. Or you edit the past from the pieces that no longer belong to it. Mm-hmm. Definitely. If you don't like it, you're allowed not to go for Thanksgiving. Mm-hmm. But you want to be there. And when you say my mother wants her family back, it doesn't mean that she doesn't want her family back. It means that she doesn't want her family back. Mm-hmm. In a way, you want it too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. In a different version, but you want to have them talk about her in a way that maintains a continuity, or that acknowledges the past, or that keeps a space for her. Maybe even an empty seat at the table so that she doesn't feel like she's the only one in the family. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's a good point. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there's something that you are holding onto as well. Yeah. I think it is my mom in my ear, is a big part of it. What does she say? What do you hear her say, actually? Yeah. I mean, she said out loud leading up to this event, "I wish that I could be there. I wish that I could see all your cousins and all their children. Yeah. Yeah. I wish. I wish that I could see all your children." Yeah. I wish that I could see all your children. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. 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That way, you know you're in the right car taking the right trip, and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app. The question for you is, how do you step out of this triangular situation? Mm-hmm. And it seems to not be an easy thing for you to do. Yeah. It's like you don't like it, but you can't resign. Mm-hmm. And that's my question is, how do you resign from a job that is no longer needed? Mm-hmm. Yeah, so true. They will not agree. Serves no purpose. No, they will each have a different story about what happened. You are not there to try to make one unified story. She will say this, he will say that, and you will say something else. Mm-hmm. Everybody will have their version of what happened, why it ended this way, who ended it. Mm-hmm. So interesting. That makes me really think that, you know, the same thing that I keep faulting my father for, having this very black and white version of reality and what happened in their divorce is kind of exactly what I'm doing. I keep thinking, I'm in this triangular relationship. I was the one who was there for all the pain and suffering, and therefore, I'm the leading expert on their relationship. Mm-hmm. When in fact, like you said, that may be a job that isn't for hire anymore. I mean, you do know a lot, but you may not want to keep your position. Mm-hmm. But, you know, it's disorienting when we resign. Mm-hmm. Because while we don't like the position, Mm-hmm. it also causes us to feel like we don't want to keep our position. It also confers a sense of specialness, a sense of expertise, sometimes a sense of a certain power. There's a certain kind of secondary benefits at times. Even while we think, why am I doing this? This shouldn't be me. I shouldn't have to be in the middle. But there is something about having been recruited for the middle that then turned into voluntary service. Yeah. And to let go of the service is to let go of the service. Mm-hmm. Is to no longer be that much in the center, to not be in the know. And while it clears a tremendous amount of psychic space, it also can be suddenly disorienting like, then where am I? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's my place when I had such a clearly defined place? Yeah. I'm so close with my mom, and when she comes over, you know, I really have tried to be better at it. I'm better at, like, setting boundaries and saying, this whole weekend, we're not going to talk about dad. And you succeed? No. Eventually, it always creeps in. All right. So how do we have a little button that buzzes every time, you know, you're being pulled back in? Do you ever talk about you? Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. So it's not that there is a shortage of other topics. But this one is always on the menu. Yes. She's always willing to, you know, share another disheartening story that I somehow missed from my childhood. Yeah. And then what would you do if you actually did it differently? Hmm. How would I do it differently if she started to engage in a conversation about my father? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Did I ever tell you that time when we came home? And this is what happened. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Usually, I'd say, wow, you never told me that before. No, please tell. Right. Yeah. And your dad that day was utterly unbearable. Mm-hmm. I might say, I need a break. I need to not even know this information because it creeps into my brain at 3 o'clock in the morning. And I can't get it out. And it really kind of lives right inside of me and comes out in a really strong, awful, passionate way when I see my father the next time. So I just need to stop you right there and have you keep that one for yourself. Mm-hmm. How does that one feel? Yeah. That feels good. Mom, there's a lot that you need to work through and you have a lot of unpleasant memories. I know this is a lot for you to carry. Unfortunately, I can't carry it with you. Mm-hmm. Whenever you tell me something, I go to bat for you. Mm-hmm. And it translates into a rift between me and dad. Mm-hmm. As if it had happened to me. And I know it hasn't. And I have to find a better way for your stories not to enter under my skin. Mm-hmm. I wish I could hear your stories without personalizing them. If you told me you had coffee yesterday, I wouldn't personalize it. If you told me you like pain au chocolat, I wouldn't personalize it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I know that this is you and not me. But when you start talking about that, somehow the line has been crossed for me. I have not always known to separate the two. Mm-hmm. So I know how hard it is for you to carry this, but I'm sorry I can't listen. Mm. Yeah. I think for my mom, that would be, I anticipate that that would be heartbreaking for her to hear. I struggle with those kind of boundaries with her. To hear which part? The part that you won't listen to her stories or the part that her stories create conflict between you and your dad? Yeah, I think the first. And I think. She takes it all in. She takes all the guilt on herself. I think that in a way, me creating a boundary just like adds to the guilt and shame somehow instead of like freeing her up to problem solve on her own. So let's address that. Yeah. And she feels guilty about what? Leaving him or staying? Both at very different times. Her line, my whole life would be, it's so much easier to stay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's so much harder to go. Right. And she feels guilty in what sense? She, every time that I hang up the phone with her, she says, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that I ruined my family. Mm-hmm. I'm so sorry that you still have to overthink this and talk to somebody about this. Right. Well, one way I may talk about it less is if you talk about it to me less. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because if you're continuously bringing it up, it actually keeps it awake and alive. Mm-hmm. Definitely. And if you really want to help me, this is what you can do. Yeah. But then it really needs to be if you really want to help me. Mm-hmm. Not if you say you want to help me, but in fact, you want me to help you. Yeah. You made your choices. It's okay. It's for you to deal with. Mm-hmm. I'm taking care of my part of the story. Mm-hmm. But if you think about the effect it had on me, then the best thing you can do is to stop. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the best thing I will do is to stop you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There have been, we've tried it. I think we've like dipped our toe in and now is the time to really commit to making that happen. Yeah, because I am so open and honest with her and she's been there through the good and the bad. Yeah, this is all done with love. Yeah. But you, I understand, you are continuously re-examining your relationship. Mm-hmm. And it's important that you re-examine your relationship by yourself. Mm-hmm. More so. Yeah, that's powerful to hear from you. You know, but it's very important that this be done not in confrontation. Mm-hmm. With clarity. You're going to do this trial and error you're going to miss many times because you're so routinized into tell me more and tell me the story and let me dig into your well. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And then exactly at three o'clock in the morning you wake up in the middle of the night and the next time you see your dad you spit out to him as if you were the wife. And there is a confusion of roles and a confusion of who's who and what belongs to whom. Mm-hmm. A boundary is not about people staying outside. A boundary is how to actually connect to people. But you connect from who you are and not from a merging of the stories. Mm-hmm. As if her life had been yours. You have your own marriage. Mm-hmm. There was an exact example of that role reversal. My mom went to go talk with my dad one-on-one recently. They went to go have brunch together and they had a lovely time. They hugged each other. They each apologized to each other. Mm-hmm. And then my mom came back and told me, Oh, I hate that I was so friendly. I wish that I said this this night. Mm-hmm. And then it was the next time that I saw him, I was. You told him to do this and this. Yeah. Okay. So I have to find a way not to be a thief. Right? Everything goes through me porously and pours out on the other side. Mm-hmm. And I feel like it's off. I realize that I am saying things. But they're not really mine. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I pour out. Mm-hmm. You know? It's as if I've been. Something has been dumped inside of me. It needs to be let out. But it doesn't feel. In this case, I'm going to use your word. It doesn't feel truthful. Mm-hmm. Meaning it's yours, but it's not yours. Yeah. Interesting. It always does feel like it lives right here. Like it's not even far down in me. It's just something that I take in and have to spit back out again. Yeah. Yeah. Does that resonate, the description I just made? Yes, definitely. Mm-hmm. Two or ten? It's definitely a ten. Okay. Yeah. So if you go home and you tell your mom about this session, Mm-hmm. since this is a session that she offered you, how do you thank her at the same time as you also say to her, I'm about to do something that's going to be new for both of us and maybe challenging for both of us? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it will be really good. I think, in a way, both of us anticipated that this would be a big theme brought up. My mom is. She's truly selfless, and I think she's ready to receive it. It's going to be a little tricky, and we're going to definitely stumble on the way, but I think a clear line in the sand needs to be drawn. Let me ask you something. When your mom told you, I should have said da-da-da-da-da, and then the next time you met him, you told him da-da-da-da-da, Mm-hmm. at what point did you feel that the package had been dropped on your chest? Mm-hmm. Good question. Probably as soon as my mom told me. Okay. Yeah. You're going to use that cue. Mm-hmm. You know there is a kind of an incoherent but immediate feeling you have physically in your body Mm-hmm. when she transfers. Mm-hmm. Her emotional experience onto you. Yeah. Generally, people know it. They don't, it's like it stiffens the neck and the shoulder. There's something, they know that something is entering them. Mm-hmm. That's a foreign object. It's not theirs. Mm-hmm. At that moment is when you have to act. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not because of what she says. Because she can say other things at other times and you don't have that feeling and that's fine. That's how this is not becoming something so rigid. But when you have that feeling like, ooh, you know, foreign antennas are entering here. Mm-hmm. Then you know that you have to create that demarcation. Mm-hmm. It's funny how long it takes to realize that. Mm-hmm. I look back in retrospect and be like, huh, that's exactly how that played out. Mm-hmm. But, yeah, usually I take lots of breaths and I huff and I puff and I might stand up and say, no, you've never told me that story before, but I'm like collecting it all right here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And it doesn't matter if you have or if you haven't. Mm-mm. That story belongs to you. Mm-mm. And I trust that you will find a place for it. Yeah, she will. She has so many friends and coworkers and she has a great therapist, so she will. It's just, yeah, it's leaving this relationship behind with my father and also, yeah, starting our own new path forward. Right. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Esther. Thank you, Esther. Thank you, Esther. Thank you, Esther. Thank you, Esther.