This is the sound of one very happy Britain insurance customer. Happy that we went to the market and found a truly competitive farm policy that covered the complete farm equipment and so much more. For farm insurance go to Britaininsurance.ie. You're secure when you insure with Britain insurance. Pap Britain and Co-limited trading as Britain insurance is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. I was only a little fellow when it started happening so I didn't really know what to do or who to turn to. And then for years afterwards for lots of reasons I didn't tell anyone. Until finally I found someone who knew how to help, who I could start opening up to. Only then was I able to say this happened to me. You never have to deal with sexual violence alone. Support is always here. Visit alwayshere.ie, contact and go to Shiakhana or call the National Helpline on 1-800-7788-88. A message from Coon, a government-violent agency. Last May I got a text from a good friend. He wrote, "I have a possible DSM lead for you. The elderly father of one of my good friends has elected to end his life this summer. He's going to stop eating. He is a retired doctor. My friend is struggling with it." That led me to connect with Jason. My friend's good friend. His father had some chronic heart problems, but death was not otherwise imminent, or at least as not imminent as you can be as an AE5-year-old man in America. Jason and I first talked on the phone in May, and we kept in touch over the next several months, as Jason's father prepared to die, and Jason's feelings about his father's decision evolved. In our episode today, you'll hear Jason tell me about the end of his dad's life. He died one month before we recorded this, and what it was like to be with him at the end. It is an intense listen, and also one that gets right at the heart of things we talk a lot about on this show. Love, family, facing straight on, what is actually happening, and also, as it's embedded, right in our name, that the end is coming for each of us. Jason walks me through how it happened for his father, and you'll hear Jason is smart and funny. He's a trained lawyer who focuses on procedure and minutia, but he's warm too. He's the kind of person you could give a tricky personal problem to, and they would break it down logically without judgment. He made me think about a lot of this in new ways. And a few notes on this, we are talking about end of life decision making, and end of life care in this episode. And Jason and his father both had mental health support as they went through this. If anything from this episode feels too much, and like you need someone to talk to, start with 9-8-8, the mental health crisis hotline in the US. They're there to talk and to connect you to resources where you live. This was an act of freedom, an act of intentional living, that puts this experience outside of the realm of death by one's own hand. My dad had a great death. He had a great life, and he punctuated his life with a great death. This is Death, Sex, and Money. The show from Slate about the things we think about a lot, I need to talk about more. I'm Anna Saif. Jason Armstrong is 56. He's lived in Bozeman, Montana for nearly two decades. He spent most of his career as a lawyer, and stopped practicing a year and a half ago. He also drove an uber for a while for extra cash. His parents settled in Bozeman in 2012, and that's where his mother died in 2018. It was a long decline. His dad took care of her, as her mobility became more and more limited. And then he lived alone when she was gone. Jason suggested his dad move in with him and his son. It didn't make practical sense to me that we would each be paying a mortgage that we would each be doing these things in the same town, but it a separate location. I think, you know, again, from a practical perspective, there are benefits to living together. I'm a cook. I love to cook. My dad was alone, and I needed some emotional support, and I think that maybe he did too. Yeah. Are you alone in the house right now? Yes. And this is the house where your dad died? Yes. How does it feel being. Oh, go ahead. That's okay. Go ahead. I was just going to say that when we moved in, we arranged the house in such a way so that everybody had some space. So my dad occupied the west side of the house, which consisted of two rooms. And I lived in the master bedroom in the house, and my son lived in the basement. And we named these places. My father lived in the west wing. I couldn't live in the situation room, and I occupied the Department of Justice. Have you been in the west wing much since your father died? No. I haven't gone into the west wing very much. No. If at all, maybe to close the window. Were you kind of in this state of mind that this time of living with your dad, even when you moved in, that this was a time to savor being with him because he was getting older? Did you have this idea that this was not going to last when you first moved in? Of course, I knew that it wouldn't last. That's an interesting word choice saver because I didn't have the notion that I would saver this time with my dad. And I have to admit that sometimes it wasn't savery. We were roommates. You can't change the way a person chooses or yoms. You can't do that. And so you learn to ignore or whatever. Tolerate fairly. Yeah. And sometimes I felt that way, you know, if I would come home from a long day at work and get home and start to be talked to without, you know, 15 minutes of decompression. And I think that since he has been gone, there have been times when I have thought I've heard him. Or there have been times when I've walked in the door and the talk isn't there. And now I think with some regret that I could have savered it or felt differently about it than I did at the time. And when he moved in, how would you describe what his level of health was in 2019? He had had a double bypass and it was successful. But my dad also had a refill abnormality in his heart. He knew the exact name of it, but he had some physical ailments that pretended a death for him, not dissimilar to his own father's death. But he had already decided that that would never happen. Like physicians can tend to do, Jason's dad always talked about death in a clinical straightforward way. From an early age, Jason can remember his father declaring that he did not want to die slowly in the medical system. These are just words that come out of your parents' mouths, you know. Yeah, when I die, it's going to be this way or in particular, you know, when I die, it's not going to be this way. It's not going to be in the hallways and rooms of my life.
hospital. It's not going to be intubated. It's just stuff that a kid hears and it's like, yeah, yeah. How did your dad tell you that he had devised a concrete plan for how his life was going to end? As a little bit of a preamble, Dad and I lived in Italy last year for a couple of months and we were sitting at a cafe in Rome and he was telling me about how he believed 2024 was going to be his last year on earth. And we spoke about that a little bit. I sort of encouraged him to slow down a little bit because he really charges. He thought that was okay. Maybe try to slow down a little bit. Then the way that I learned about Dad's final decision and ultimate decision was that he had typed out an email the morning of 13th of April. And oh my god, I was um, Ubering. And I was Ubering and I was driving. Yeah, yeah. I was waiting in my usual spot for a ride and I checked my email and it was about, I don't know, 530 in the morning on the 13th and opened this email and I'm like, oh my word. I just read it and I'm like, okay, don't know what this means. And I continued to drive. And to the extent that you're comfortable sharing, what did it say? It said that he had decided that he was going to stop eating and drinking. Um, he had nice words to say. Some poetry quoting from Shakespeare and other poets. He tried to sum up the quality of his life and the things that he had learned. He talked about the philosophy of being a person. Honestly, I think probably my first reaction was what the fuck? Yeah. What the fuck man? I came home around um, 930 and so I was anticipating seeing him and I had some questions for him and he walked in the garage door and I can't remember exactly what he had been doing but he had been crying. And when he came in, we were just standing in the kitchen and I greeted him and I think we had a hug. I can't remember if we had a hug or not. And I don't remember all of the contents of the conversation but the glaring question missing from the email was when? Yeah. When? And so that's what I asked him about. What did he say? He said, I don't know, July? Oh man. Um, and this was a problem for me because I didn't want to be a participant in his decision making. I didn't want to be brought into something that I was willing to participate in up to a point. But I'm not going to say, well, how about this time? Or how about that time? You know, like I'm, I didn't want to do that. Did that feel like um, he's making the wrong decision or did it feel or was the it more like, wow, this really hurts my feelings. Um, my feelings weren't hurt. Um, I think my reaction at that time and for a long period of time, and I would say a long period of time about a month was how narcissistic can you possibly be? It just felt so um, absolutely controlling and so, so um, a huge requirement, a humongous requirement of another person and other people. Uh, and and so I thought of it for a time as the ultimate expression of self-centeredness and narcissism. Did you try to talk him out of it? At one point I suggested to him that he needed to change his living arrangement, that um, that we could sell this place and he could move into a little apartment. He always had kind of a little dream of occupying a tiny space uh, with a pen and some books and a piece of paper. Um, he, I think sometimes he really, fantasized about the sort of monk-like existence, uh, Spartan existence. And maintaining this house was no small feat, so I suggested to him that we could make a change. And he would have none of it. Before Jason's father died, Jason talked to him about talking with us about this process. He gave his blessing for Jason to talk to us about it all, and Jason shared his father's email with us. Jason's father wrote that one of the reasons he wanted to end his life now was that it had been particularly wonderful. He wrote, "My life is overflowing, sufficient, enough right now. I am grateful for the gift of every moment." As he aged, Jason's father wrote, he was increasingly unable to experience life as he wanted. He felt his faculties diminishing, and that felt unbearable. The evening after receiving the email, Jason suggested that two of them take a break from talking, and go to the local ski mountain the next morning. It was the last day of the season. We all skied together growing up in Utah and loved the mountains and that. So I said to Dad that he and I would go up for the last day on the mountain. That's good skiing. Well, he couldn't ski, but we could sit at the bar and have a burger and have a beer, and it's always fun because people are dressed up, and folks are tailgating and barbecuing, and it's just a fun thing to do. Mountain air at that time, it was real nice. I suggested that we do that, and he said, "Yes, that sounds great." That's what we did that next day. I was only a little fellow when it started happening, so I didn't really know what to do or who to turn to. And then for years afterwards, for lots of reasons, I didn't tell anyone. Only then was I able to say, "This happened to me." You never have to deal with sexual violence alone. Visit alwayshere.ai, contact and guard a Shiakhana, or call the National Helpline on 1-800-77-88-88, a message from Kuhn, a government-violent agency. This is the sound of a very happy Britain insurance customer. For farm insurance, go to Britaininsurance.ai. Pop Britain and Co-limited Trading as Britain Insurance is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland.
because it means I can now stream the pitch and cosplay as a doctor from the comfort of my couch. Or if I fancy pretending like I know what the stock market is, I can catch up on all seasons of industry, that Harper's turn. What will she do next? Plus, you'll also be able to enjoy heated rivalry, succession, all her fault, and so much more. So what are you waiting for? Hétro Max is now included with now, all in one app for one price. This is Death, Sex, and Money from Slate, Nymana Sale. After Jason learned about his father's intentions and that he was serious about it, the conversation shifted to what next. Jason's son is now over 18 and he was the third family member living in the house with Jason and his dad. I asked him to please tell my son sooner rather than later. Did that add another dimension to it for you of wanting to protect your son and his proximity to this? I didn't have a sense of needing to protect my son. They were close. They spoke frequently. So I felt that my son would be okay and I didn't necessarily feel the need to insulate him from a thing that is true for every person on earth. And that thing is that people die. It was my commitment to my dad and less of a commitment to my son that bothered me more. I was so focused on meeting my father's needs that I asked my son and said, "Hey, I'm going to be focusing on dad." And that's kind of what I'm doing now. So that was a tough thing. Yeah. Well, I noticed when you were describing how you were thinking of this as the ultimate act of a narcissist, you described it as for the first month or so after you got this news. So it changed? Yeah, it changed. So talk me through as April turns to May, what started to shift as far as how you viewed your dad's decision? So the first week after the information, I was sort of stuck in bed, listless a little bit. And I resolved after the first week to start to take care of myself a little bit more. And I would leave every morning while the house was quiet and go for a walk. And I realized quickly, on these walks, I would have panic attacks. And as time went on, first week, second week of walking in the morning, I would have a panic attack every time I was walking. And I was processing a lot of emotion at that time. And one thing that I do to do that is I loop court imaginary situations in my mind. So I would create a scenario. Okay. And I would work my way through it emotionally speaking. And I would consistently come back to my diagnosis of my dad, of narcissism. And the personal way I was taking it, and I slowly worked it out with myself, that it was not personal. And it was very helpful for me. Something that I now know is that the mind of an 85 year old person doesn't work the same way as the mind of a 40 or 50 year old person. People at this age don't view the remainder of their lives the same way that a younger person views the remainder of their lives. And I don't think that that's a diagnosable situation. I think that that's just a person views the world differently as they get older. Yeah. It's so vivid thinking about what these walks were like for you. These predictable panic attacks and this idea of working out of a courtroom argument in your head. The sort of ritual of it. It's very striking. I feel like it tells me a lot about what you how you think about noticing what's happening in your body and also how you intellectually make sense of it. Yeah. I've reflected on that a little bit. And think that that's consistent with the way I've been since I was a young person. But I have a motto. I learned this motto in law school and it's wrong again. Oh, that sounds awful humble for lawyers. Well, I think that it's a mistake for me to make in thinking that I'm correct about a thing. So I take sides in my mind and I use strong words and I could reassure myself that I was okay because I was in nature and processed by emotional content in a sort of an abbreviated period of time so that when I returned home, I could get on with the day. In June, Jason and his two brothers gathered with their father to review his estate plans where his money and properties would go after his death. They all got together again in early July for their father's final days. Coming up, Jason tells me how those days unfolded. So we took a drive up to Highlight Lake and set off some chairs in the shade and my son and father walked down to the lake and my dad put his feet in the water. And then he just had a seat and left a sunshine on his face and we were just having easy conversation. I kept going over it in my head but I kept it hidden. Even the people who knew me best, who loved me the most didn't know what had been done to me because I didn't know how to tell them or even what to tell them. But then I found a way to tell someone I knew could help because I wanted the pain to start going away. Visit alwayshere.ai, contact and guard a siakana or call the National Health Line on 1-800-77-88-88, a message from Kuhn, a government-violent agency. For farm insurance go to Britaininsurance.ai. Papyritan and Co-limited trading as Britain insurance is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. As part of his end of life preparations, Jason's father reached out to a local hospice center. A doctor from the facility came to the house to talk and Jason says she grilled his dad for hours on the porch trying to understand his reasoning and to make sure he was in sound mind. when it comes to end of life.
in the United States. Ten states, including Montana, where Jason lives, allow a form of medical aid in dying. That's a medical practice that allows a terminally ill adult to request a prescription from their doctor to die peacefully in their sleep. In order for doctors to help, they have to determine that the patient is thinking clearly. There's other criteria too, like putting things in writing and talking to multiple physicians. The hospice doctor determined that Jason's dad was thinking clearly and agreed to help. In this case, the hospice center would not be providing medication to end Jason's dad's life, since he had chosen to stop eating and drinking, which is actually legal in all 50 states for someone to pursue for themselves. But Jason's dad did have support from hospice workers. They prescribed some medication to help ameliorate his suffering, morphine and Xanax, and they monitored his vitals and helped explain what was happening when and why. He set a date of when he would actually stop eating and drinking. And he worked backwards from that date one week, and he reduced his caloric intake. And we had had people here, family and friends came to visit with him. We had barbecues on the back porch and conversation. The people kind of send out a little bit, and I think that's really when he started. And so, he came a time when he was beginning to suffer a little bit more. And we just had time together here, about a week, a little bit less. So, having decided that that's the way you want to die, to say, I'm going to stop feeding this body. I'm going to make this intellectual choice. It does seem a question I would have is how much suffering am I setting myself up for? Yeah. Well, I think he did ask himself that question. And I had read some articles and spoken with a friend regarding the way that people suffer under these circumstances. And so, I had some concern that he would. But I need to lay some foundation to let you know that he was a person who did not issue suffering in life. And in fact, intentionally put himself into this issue exactly where he would do that. He would fast for days. He would camp alone in the woods in winter time. He was not a person who didn't invite some form of suffering for the purposes of changing his perspective. I think this might be another difficult question. And as you were witnessing this process, you know what your father has decided with his mind. Were there instances where it looked like his body wanted a different sort of intervention? Wanted to stay alive. He started to get very thirsty. And I appreciate the distinction you're making because I think it's an important distinction to make. There was an evening when he heard sprinklers in a house next door to head. And he thought that it was rain. And he walked out onto the back porch to experience the rain. And he was disoriented. And I became very concerned that he would fall off the end of the porch or fall over and something would happen. But I think this is an example of the body seeking a source. So his body wanted water. Real bad. And so after that point, because of that concern, I think it's a very different story. I think it's a very different story. And I think it's a very different story. And so we took in with us to his room, a little tiny shot of Italian lemon ice, and a little tiny shot of Irish whiskey, and a little tiny shot of, and I mean tiny, and I think it's a very different story. Again, a stat, which he loved all of those things. And he cleared his palate and savored the flavor. And we sat with him. And we shared poetry with him. And we loved him. We were with him for not very long, maybe 20 minutes. And then we said good night. And he didn't wake up. And I checked on him at one o'clock. And he was stillness in the air. And I touched his toe. And he was clearly lifeless. So we gathered again. Finally fell asleep around for one morning. Anyway. And it sounds so beautiful and quiet. And this might be a difficult question. So you tell me if you don't want to answer it. But when you could see him fading, were there moments where something else, to intervene so he wouldn't go? Is that surprise you at all? Or is that something you kind of expected from yourself? Here's how I feel about it. There's a notion in the law. It's a very important part where there is a script. A person who writes things down. And the script is not responsible for the words. This was a thing that my dad wrote. I was committed to helping him. Because he had made it so known in words and actions that this.
was a thing that was happening. That again, it wasn't my job. And especially at the 11th hour, to turn the boat. I'm looking at his obituary, his beautiful obituary. Do you know who wrote it? Yes. Was it you? Yes. Is it okay if I go over a few of the details that are included here? Sure. He learned to play drums as a young man. And he once backed such artists as Czech Barry and Muddy Waters. Yeah. Pretty cool. Very cool. Very cool. As a physician, his specialty was chest and lung radiology. And one time during a routine physical, he palpated President Nixon's prostate to assure it's good health. Yes. Your story. Explanation point. Yes. I mean, this is a unique feature of a person's life that just saw me share. At the end, you wrote the rules that prescribed the life of John, duty, tenderness, patience, and love no longer exist for him. Those rules continue with his family and friends. Yeah. He wishes all of you love, love. Yeah. So beautiful. So you're still in the Department of Justice, right? Yes, I am. I don't know as you think about the coming weeks and months and being in that house and your dad's things in his space. I don't know how do you want to how do you want to live alongside it? I would sort of like to change it. I'd like to remove some of the artifacts and some of the things. I don't really know. I'm up in the air right now. Yeah. Are you cooking? Often on, I harvested a whole bunch of tomatoes. I was going to make some tomato soup today. Sounds nice. I think those are all my questions, Jason, unless is there anything else that you have been thinking about that you wanted to share? Yeah. If you don't mind. Sure. I've been thinking a lot about the nature of love. What is love? And so part of my challenge to myself in relationship to my father, in particular, over the last couple of years, has been to kind of delve into that notion a little bit more. And when I was living with him in Italy, and we were in very close proximity with one another, I hit on a word to help me understand what love is. And that word is tenderness. I wanted to be as tender with him as possible. And so I think it's a very difficult thing to love parents. I think we all love our parents and we all very easily say, oh, I love my parent, but or whatever we say. And to my dad, I have to extend more gratitude in trying to understand what that word means to me and how I tried to manifest that with him and with other people too. So I have a whole kinds of gratitude to my dad. Yeah. I hadn't quite thought about that. How this has been about yeah, tenderly loving one's parents is something that you sometimes need to grow into. I'm definitely going to hold on to that word. I think in families, you know, whether it's in my life as a wife or a mom or as a daughter can be easy to lose the thread to tenderness sometimes. It works for me. And it totally speaking. It's it's correct. I'm not wrong on this one for me. That's Jason Armstrong in Boseman, Montana. And again, if you find yourself needing to talk to someone and don't know where to reach out, try 988. The National Middle Health Crisis Hotline in the US, they will be there to listen and they can connect you to local resources. This episode was produced by Zoe Azule thanks to my friend Nate Benton for introducing me to Jason. Death Sex and Money is produced by Slate. The rest of our team includes Andrew Dunn and Cameron Drew's. Daisy Rosario is our senior supervising producer at Slate. Alicia Montgomery is Slate's head of audio. And if you are not already a member of Slate Plus, please sign up to support our work. Get an ad free stream of our show and exclusive Slate Plus episodes like my conversation this week with Slate Sex Advice columnists from the column How to Do It. Where we talk about reinvigorating your fantasy life. Go to Slate.com/DSM Plus to sign up. It's just $5 a month for the first three months. Or you can click try free at the top of the Death Sex and Money Show page on Apple Podcasts. Our theme is by the Reverend John DeLore and Steve Lewis. If you are new to our show welcome, we're glad you're here. You can find us on Instagram at Death Sex Money. And I write a weekly newsletter. You can get it at anacail.substac.com and you can reach us anytime with voice memos, pep talks, questions or critiques. Our email address is
[email protected]. We love hearing from you. I'm Anna Sale and this is Death Sex and Money from Slate. Hello guys, Vanula from Flopculture here to tell you that H3Lmax is now included with Now, which means you can enjoy even more iconic TV series. This is incredible news for me personally because it means I can now stream the pitch and cosplay as a doctor from the comfort of my couch. Or if I fancy pretending like I know what the stock market is, I can catch up on all seasons of industry. That Harper Stern. Plus, you'll also be able to enjoy heated rivalry, succession, all her fault and so much more. H3Lmax is now included with Now, all in one app for one price. I wasn't sleeping or eating well, I just wasn't feeling myself. I was chatting to some friends and one of them suggested I check out VHI Women's Health Clinic. I saw their Women's Health GP who connected me with a health coach for my sleep and diet and a psychologist for support. I was so relieved to have all these services in arms reach. VHI because your health means everything.
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