Move Through the Hard Times with Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

You said you were in a production with Matt Damon? I was not in a production. I was in a class. I was in a class with Matt Damon. So at that point, he was already into community theater. He was kind of known on campus as someone who wanted to be an actor. So I took a drama class, just a regular credit class, and he happened to be in it. And then for one scene, the professor paired me with him. And it was something like Waiting for Godot, like a boring play. Yeah, yeah. But we did this scene, and at the end, the professor was like, Ketanji, you were so good. Matt, we'll talk. What's up? Hi, Craig. Nice suit. We have a special guest. So I wanted to kind of show up like, I mean, business. And make me feel underdressed. I know. I should have called you. You should have let me know. And I'm like, boy, put on a jacket. But that's cute. That's very non- Yeah, that's just what I want to be in front of a Supreme Court justice is cute. Just very cute. Yeah, yeah. But you know, you did your best. How's it going? How's life? Life's good. Life is really good. Yeah. Where are you staying? I'm staying in the Hollywood. I'm staying in the Hollywood Hills. So not far from here. Okay. I have a real nice Airbnb. It's like, what I like about this one, it's got a lot of outdoor family space. I mean, there are balconies off of almost every room. And then it's got a huge sort of patio. Oh, that's cool. It's really neat. Yeah, so you're not rambling around there lonely. Yeah, hearing an echo because I'm the only one in a four-bedroom place. So it's really nice. And it's in a really good neighborhood. And it just reminded me of why people, a good reason why people open their homes up and have them on Airbnb so that you can show off your neighborhood and walk around the Hollywood Hills. Is that what people, you think that the family that owns this house wants you to know? Well, I think they want a little extra cash. Yeah, that's what I was wondering. It's in a really cool. I think that's the real reason. It's in a really cool neighborhood. And I'm not in the steep part, so I can walk around. Did you go for a walk? Not yet. Not yet. Okay. I've been working. I don't, you know, you woke up this morning. Because it is, well, I had a meeting this morning, so I was up early. But if I didn't have a meeting, it's close enough to Laurel Canyon Road where you can walk down there and then you're back in civilization. So with shops. Mm-hmm. And if you wanted to walk. Walk and get your morning coffee, you could. Yeah, I could. I think you should do that tomorrow. Yeah, I might do that tomorrow. And tell me all about it. I might do that. Well, I think we should get to it. We, you know. Yes. I mean, we've, it feels like we're becoming a big girl and boy podcast. I know. This is, this is. With our guests today. It's like we've, we're elevating ourselves, you know. I, you have probably met Justice Katonji Brown Jackson, but I have never met her. Mm-hmm. And. It, she doesn't seem like a Supreme Court Justice. She's so delightful. And. Well, Joe, that, that's a big diss to the others that you don't have. Well, I haven't met any. So this is the first one. So, but I was, I was. But she gives you an air of delight unlike the others. Well, no, I wasn't going to say that, but you see how, see, that's what Mish does. She puts words in my mouth and then I end up being scolded on social media. No, but I'm really excited about our discussion. Because the, I, I just can't wait to talk about her life and. Yeah, it's not often that people get access to a sitting Supreme Court Justice. I know, how did we get so lucky? Oh, man, I don't know. Just born that way. Yeah. Well, let's, let's, let's give her proper introduction. I will. And let's get this conversation started. Okay. So, Justice Katonji Brown Jackson is an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. In 2022, as the first African-American woman to serve on the court. And she is the author of The Lonely One, which we have here. The Lovely One. See, I'm so nervous. Yeah, just settle down. I mean, you're shaking a little bit. I know, I know. I'm really excited. Justice Jackson, you guys. Justice Jackson, please come join us. You've got my brother all shook. It is so good to have you here. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you very much. Welcome to IMO. This is wonderful. Yes, I'm perfect. Oh, my goodness. Well, it is really, really an honor. Thank you. You know, just for our listeners and viewers, we've met on several occasions. But we have never had, you know, the real time to just check in and be. So, I'm sorry that we're doing this, you know, on television. I'm delighted to be here. Or on YouTube. But you also, you've got the young adult's version of Lovely One coming out. Yes, I do. Congratulations. It's out. It's out. And I'm so proud of it. Being able to give younger, a younger audience a chance to check in with my story. I think it will be great. What I get out of your memoir is at a young age, you were really, should I say competitive? I mean, like, you know, it comes out. Well, I do think that I saw that pretty early on. I mentioned that my parents were public school teachers. But when I was three years old, my dad decided to go to law school. And that's not, you know, something that happens every day. Then someone who has a small kid decides to go to school. And some of my earliest memories are of sitting at the kitchen table on the University of Miami campus, which is. Where my dad went to law school. And my dad has his law books all stacked up. And I have my coloring books all stacked up. And we work together. And so from that young, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer because I thought that's what you did. But watching him study, watching him strive and say, this is something that I want to do. I think really formed me early on as someone who was going to continue to try to improve myself through it. And I think that's what I wanted to do. And be a lawyer and maybe even become a judge. You know, those sorts of ideas, I think, were planted very early. And then I had the really wonderful opportunity to go to a big public high school in South Florida. But we had a fabulous debate team. And my debate coach was an extraordinary mentor for me. And she just believed in me. She just believed in me. And doing speech and debate, I think, was really the beginning of my, you say, competitive spirit. Because it was a competitive event. And I tell people now, you know, if you want your kids to be resilient, to understand how to deal with failure, to develop the confidence. To develop the kind of spirit of perseverance that it's going to take to be really successful. You should have them do something competitive when they're young. Get them into some kind of, whether it's sports or a debate or something. It's very helpful, in my opinion, to form the right mindset to succeed later on. In my opinion, too. I know. You're a big sports guy. One thing I wanted to ask, what was it like being the smart kid? In your family and in your community? Very lonely. I mean, I was president of my high school class. Big class. 750 kids. And on the debate team, very, very successful. So I was popular. But just not in the way that resulted in any dates or prom invitations. And so it was lonely in that sense. And that was something that I had to overcome. And actually played itself out in my eventual courtship in dating my husband. Because he actually was my first boyfriend. We don't talk about that. Oh, okay. We met in college and that was really my very first time dating anyone. Your first date was in college? Yes, sir. I thought I was bad. Yes, sir. Well, he was always in the gym. Wow. But this is. You know, I mean, like you, and I want to talk about your Harvard experience. One of the reasons I got through Princeton, he was there and he was good ballast for me. But we were there only two years. But it was because of that community of kids who were like me. Absolutely. Right? Absolutely. And I always try to make this point. It's like, you don't do kids of color service by plucking them out and making them one of a few. Yes. And scattering them about the campus. I think that's absolutely right. And it describes more of my high school experience, even though I was popular. Yeah. Yeah. Than it did my college experience, which I loved. Yeah. I loved because at the time. that I went to Harvard, which we're contemporaries in terms of the timing of it, there was a sizable black community on campus. And it was like, I found my people in a sense, you know, the people who had similar life experiences and backgrounds that I had where you could feel totally comfortable being yourself. And my roommates and I, and I talk a lot in the book about them, I roomed with five other black women and there were six of us on campus. And then we were within this larger community and it was just amazing. It was amazing. Because you experienced homesickness. You know, as smart of a student as you were, leaving home and going to a college setting in Harvard and Princeton, these schools, these elite schools with systems of education that are still somewhat different. Yes. You know, it takes a minute to adjust to living on your own. It takes a minute to adjust. You know, I got to Princeton and I realized that, you know, I'm going to school with a bunch of kids who went to college preparatory schools. Absolutely. The chokes and the exiters of the world. And I'm like, oh, wow, you did this already. You've been living this life for the last three, four years. And I'm just showing up and you already took this course. You read these books. You did this thing that I didn't get in my little public high school. That's correct. On the south side of Chicago. And it was a very sobering, sobering thought. You know, I came from Florida, very different cultural environment anyway. Yeah. And then to meet the kinds of students that you're talking about, who were in some ways that much farther ahead because they had not only grown up or been in the New England environment, so had already adjusted to that way of being. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, wow, you did this thing that I didn't get in my little public high school. And I'm like, oh, wow, you did this thing that I didn't get in my little public high being, but also had a prep school kind of background was very daunting, especially at the beginning. And I think the thing that really saved me was a couple of things. I certainly tried to keep and did keep the connection to home. My mother and my aunt, they used to write me letters. So I'd get these letters from home in a way that was very important. And also, doing well in my very first set of classes. Oh, my God, I had the same. Did you have that? Really? No, please. No, I mean, once you get there and you are able to show and demonstrate to yourself. Yes. That you have the ability, even though there are others who have different advantages than you do. I think that is a really important, significant step. And so my first semester, I took a class called Justice, which I loved. And it was on legal and political philosophy. Very interesting, big class. It was in the large theater. And I was always too intimidated to say anything. Oh, my God. The professor asked for classroom participation. I never spoke. But I took notes and I talked to the teaching fellows and I really loved the class. And so I took notes and I talked to the teaching fellows and I really loved the class. And so I reflected on the class and then I did well in the class. And I think that was really the launching pad for me. I said, okay, I'm from this big public high school in a totally different place. But look, you know, I did well in this class. And it really made me feel like So what about you? What was your class? I mean, it was the same thing. I mean, I had my brother, but he was a big jock. You know, he was the big man on campus, star basketball player. What are you about to say? No, I wasn't going to say anything. I wasn't going to say anything. You were about to deny it? No, I was not. I was Craig Robinson's little sister. So, you know, I knew that, you know, at least I had him to say, you know, he, I was always the more focused student than he was. She was a better student than I was. You know, but he, yeah, he got into Princeton. You did not get into Princeton on athletics. You had to get in there on academics. But when you see your brother do it, you know, there's a part of me that's like, I'm pretty sure I can do this. She's being really nice. Mish knew how to study. Yes. From a young, young age. I did. I did well taking tests. That's how I got into everything. I knew how to, I just had a knack for taking tests, but I didn't study. So my first experience, I'm hijacking your story, but my first experience at Princeton, I took the wrong courses. I took chemistry, physics, economics, chemistry, physics, economics, and calculus because I was going to be an engineer, but I wasn't prepared. And he was on the varsity team. And I was playing basketball. He was a freshman. You were on varsity as a freshman. I was, and, and I almost failed out of school. I remember this. And I called my dad, Mr. Chill, Mr. Calm. And there are no 100 level courses at Princeton for these in math and science. It was bad counseling. And I forgive my counselor for putting me in these courses. That's terrible. That's part of the experience I had. Not knowing what courses to take. Yes. It was malpractice. And so my end of my first semester, I got two C's of D and an F. Those were the lowest grades I've ever gotten in my whole life. And I call my dad in tears. I'm in over my head. I shouldn't have come here. I got to get out of here. I'm going to fail. And this is a guy who did not go to college, has MS, working for the city of Chicago. And he was like, oh, relax, relax. Now tell me about this again. And what courses are you taking? And he goes through this whole thing. And I'm like, he doesn't know what he's doing. Right. And he said, the final thing he said, how many people are in that school? And they said, I said, 4,000. But what does that have to do to it? I'm like, it threw tears. And he said, well, that means there's a thousand guys in a class, a thousand people in the class. Yes. And he said, okay, we've, we've, we've figured out you're not going to be number one in the class, but you're not going to be number 1,000. Yeah. And it hit me as like, there's no way I'm going to be number 1,000. He's like, just get out of those courses. Yeah. Take something that you're interested in. Yeah. And to your point, as soon as I did that and, and had some academic success, I felt intellectually able to compete. Yes. Yes. And it changed my whole view of the whole process. Yes. And it made me a better everything, better person, better player. Yes. But a better combatant in the classroom. Right. Because you believed in yourself at that point. And I was just on the wrong path. Mish, you know how much I love sardines. Yeah. And I don't know why I know so much about why you love sardines. But I'm actually proud to say I've got some converts now, our producers, and even some of our listeners have written in and said they're fans too. So I was scrolling through social media and found this amazing recipe for sardine pasta with linguine, capers, Parmesan, olive oil. Be honest. If I whip that up for you, would you at least give it a try? Look, if you cooked anything for me, I would. Give it a try. But that recipe doesn't sound bad. I am among the sardine lovers. I grew up in the same household. So I love sardines and the salty taste. I can see where it could be a treat. So if you cooking, I'm eating. Good. That's good to hear. But you know, people are never neutral on sardines. You either love them or you hate them. Kind of like beets. Yeah. But honestly, the game changer for me was how easy it is to just stock up. Whenever I'm back from practice and craving them without wanting to leave the house, I just pull up Shipt for same day delivery. It's a total lifesaver. Wait, wait, Mish. What? Are you judging me right now? No. I mean, I don't know why you're so into sardines, but no, no judgment here. No, but in all seriousness, Shipt really has been convenient in those moments. Or even when I'd rather be using brain space on something other than a grocery list. And I love how particular they can be. Shoppers with Shipt are hypervigilant, putting in the effort that I would at the grocery store. They communicate with you while they shop, check in if something's unavailable, and really pay attention to the details. One time I asked for avocados that would be ripe by that following weekend, and they nailed it. I have Shipt. to thank for my guac. With Shipt, you can order order same-day delivery on everything you need from a variety of stores, including retailers like Safeway, Albertsons, Michaels, Target, and PetSmart, as well as local grocery stores exclusive to your area. Get a $49 annual membership with promo code podcast at shipped.com slash offer. That's S-H-I-P-T dot com slash offer. Terms apply. So when was it that you were thinking in your mind, not that I'm just going to be an attorney or a lawyer, but I'm going to be a judge? Oh, I remember thinking that when I got introduced to Constance Baker Motley. And I don't mean introduced in person, but I mean, I was in middle school and I learned about her because of all things, we share a birthday. We were both born on September 1st. September 14th, 49 years to the day apart. And I was reading some article, probably in one of the few magazines that my parents allowed, Jet or Ebony or Essence, right? About famous people with birthdays in September. And I said, this woman has my birthday. And she, Constance Baker Motley, was the first African-American woman to be appointed to the federal bench. And she had been of Justice Thurgood Marshall when he was a lawyer, one of his protégés and in his group of counsel. And she was a civil rights lawyer who had argued cases all through the South and in the Supreme Court. She was the first Black woman to argue in the Supreme Court. And she argued something like 10 cases and she won nine of them. And she was extraordinary. And President Johnson put her on the bench in the mid-1960s. So when I'm in middle school, I'm like, I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be a judge. And when I'm in middle school, there's this Black woman who is a federal judge. And I'd wanted to be a lawyer, but she shared my birthday and I figured maybe I can be a judge. And then around at the same time, Justice O'Connor gets appointed to the Supreme Court. And I remember that. It was a huge deal to have a woman appointed to the Supreme Court. So it was like then that I had this idea that I wanted to be on the Supreme Court. And when I applied to college, I wrote in my essay to Harvard that you really have to accept me because I would like to be the, I think it will help me with my dream of being the first Black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage. That was the line. That's crazy. It was crazy. But they were crazy. They were like, huh? Well, this is different. She stands out. Way to make yourself stand out. And so it's happened. It has happened. Yes. So I get on the court. Talk about manifestation, young people. You can do anything you want. You know, I got on the court and the producers of a Broadway show, I put this in the book and they read the book. And they called me up and they said, you've done the first part. We can help you with the second part. Do you want to be in our show? And I said, sure. And, you know, and just to make us all mad, in addition to being so smart and accomplishment, you can sing and accomplish. You can, you have a beautiful voice. I can sing, which I'd be very happy to. That doesn't seem fair. Well, I will tell you, I'm very grateful for all the many talents. And it's so much fun. Yeah. Did you do theater? I can't remember. I can't remember the book. Did you do it at Harvard? So I did it at Harvard. Yeah. So there were some events in speech and debate. I was on the speech side of speech and debate. Oratory was my primary event in high school, which is where you write your own speech and deliver it. And then in college, I shifted completely from speech and debate and just did theater. And I did, I guess you say I sing. My big moment in college was I played Billie Holiday in a cabaret. And I practiced her intonations in kid. It was fabulous. It was so fun. And you said you were in a production with Matt Damon? I was in a class. So he, at that point, he was already into community theater. So I took a drama class, just a regular credit class. And he happened to be in it. And it was something like Waiting for Godot. It was like a boring play. But we did this scene. And at the end, the professor was like, Katonji, you were so good. Matt, we'll talk. And I was like, I was better than Matt Damon. I was better than Matt Damon. Have you ever, has he heard that story? I don't know. I've told him a lot. Who hears that? Because you were better than him. And I bet he'll never hear that from Justice Roberts. Matt Damon, you wrote better than Justice Jackson. No, it was, it was so funny. Justice Jackson, you had all the chops. You're an actor, you know, great order, beautiful voice. Why? Why on earth did you go to law school? You know, I had always, always wanted to be a lawyer. I thought it was the highest and best use of my time and talent. My parents raised me to be a public servant. They were public servants. My dad, as I said, went to law school, but then he ended his career as the school board attorney for the Miami-Dade County School Board. So they were always, my mother was the principal for the School for the Arts, public service in our blood. I never really thought of doing something professionally other than going to law school, being in a position to make the arguments and do the things that I thought were necessary to advance our country with all of the issues that we are facing. Okay. That sounds noble and true. But I still have fun. I still have fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get to that. You have fun and you had love. I had love. So you met your husband at Harvard. I met Patrick. First of all, let me just say, he's cute. Oh, thank you. He's super sweet. He's super sweet. Yeah. Oh, and your love story is just so, I mean, it's like way to have the best story, love story and not have had a boyfriend. It was extraordinary. God just said, you need a good one. And he gave me one. I mean, I honestly, honestly had decided that after high school that I probably would not find anyone. I probably would not marry, that it was going to be enough for me to just be professionally successful and doing what I'm doing. So I was not looking for any kind of. You weren't manifesting. You didn't put that in your college essay. No, I did not. I did not. And I went to this class, Patrick, we met in college and he is a year ahead of me. Okay. And so he was a Jewish, and I was a sophomore. And he was a sociology major, even though he was pre-med. So he had to take the core courses around that. You were a social major. Yeah, we both were. He loved sociology. And there was this sociology core basic course called the changing concept of race in America. And so I took it. A lot of black people took it. Patrick, my husband, who is not black, took it. White boy in a class. Look down there. What do you know? Was he raising his hand? Did he have things to say? He was not raising his hand. He was sitting behind me, tapping on my shoulder, trying to talk to me. Okay, player. Yes, he was trying to talk to me. So I would look back and I was like, who is this guy? Why is he doing that? And I didn't know what it looked like to have somebody flirt with you and like you. I honestly did not. So I just thought this is kind of weird. I thought he was kind of cute and I did like him. So after about maybe a year and a half, I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And then after maybe two or three weeks of the class, I noticed that he is very talkative in this way and very flirty in this class. Like three days a week, we had this class. And then I would see him on the other days. We had this class Monday, Wednesday, Friday, on Tuesday and Thursday. I would see him in a government class because I was a government major and he wouldn't talk to me at all. It's like, oh no, you did not. At all. Don't be talking to me in the black class. Exactly. You're not in a black class and you don't know me. You're tapping on my shoulder. And my roommates, I raised this with them and they're like, leave him alone. He's crazy. Don't have anything to do with him. This is the black girl possibly, by the way. Yes. They were like, okay, no. They're all like, uh-uh. So I said, you know what? I'm going to confront him on one of the friendly days. Way to go. On the friendly day. So one of the days where he's talking to me, I said, listen, why don't you talk to me in our government class? And he says, I'm not taking a government class. class. And I said, Yes, you are. I see you in this class. I try to wave to you. You don't say anything. And he says, oh, you must be talking about my identical twin brother. That's crazy. Because he has an identical twin brother. That should have come to his mind first. It should have. Really. I will give you the excuse. And why didn't his brother kind of say? Here's the reason. It's so interesting. We talked about the prep school kids. They grew up in Boston. They went to separate prep schools and private schools from when they were in kindergarten. Oh, okay. So they weren't used to being together. They went to separate boarding schools all through and just were not used to. They had their separate friends and separate and no one ever mixed them up. And Harvard was the first time when they came back since kindergarten and were in the same school environment. So people would mix them up all the time. People would mix them up all the time and they would not think. No idea. They would not think to say. And so once we cleared that up, which was a little something at the beginning, we were off to the races. Something I love about the age of the Internet is how many of my friends are now able to build their own businesses online. I know people who started by selling a few things out of their garage. Looking at you, Kelly. And also friends. And also friends who turned their side hustles into full-time businesses. Across the board, they all rave about Shopify. If you've been tuning in, you've definitely heard me talk about Shopify. Shopify gives you all the tools to build your store, manage customers, and grow your businesses without feeling overwhelmed. And now Shopify is offering Sidekick, which is basically an AI co-founder. It can help with things like analyzing sales trends, creating promotions, and handling a lot of behind-the-scenes work so entrepreneurs can spend more time focusing on growth, creativity, and building something they're proud of. Serious about starting your own thing? Start your free trial at shopify.com slash IMO. Friends, relationships, career goals, big life anxieties. We get into all of it on this show. It's become a kind of therapy for me. But just to be clear, I am a firm believer in actual therapy as well. Therapy isn't only for moments of crisis. It's for anyone who wants more support, clarity, or tools for navigating whatever life throws at them. Grow Therapy can connect you with thousands of licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions, including nights and weekends. You can search for what matters to you, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And get started in as little as two days. One thing I really like is that there are no subscriptions or long-term commitments. You simply pay per session, making it easier to find care that fits your life. If there's something in your life you'd like to change, Grow Therapy can help you start. The therapist you want takes your insurance on Grow. Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans. Sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit GrowTherapy.com. Visit GrowTherapy.com slash IMO today to get started. That's GrowTherapy.com slash IMO. GrowTherapy.com slash IMO. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. This back-to-school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon. You know, one thing nobody prepares you for when you have kids is how quickly they go through school supplies. I cannot imagine when I was growing up going through backpacks. Quickly as my kids do nowadays. But somehow, once a year, it's back to the store we go. Or to two stores. Or three. Not to mention how fast it all just manages to disappear. The school year isn't half over, and somehow we're out of pencils, erasers, notebooks, and 30 other things. That's why I really appreciate Amazon during the back-to-school season. Whether you're shopping for school supplies, backpacks, lunch gear, clothes, or all the other things that you need to know about Amazon, or all those last-minute items that I know you don't want to be running around for, Amazon has it all. You can compare brands instantly and read reviews knowing that what you buy will actually last. Basically, Amazon makes it easy to get what you need and get back to your life. So, remember, with Amazon's low back-to-school prices, just spend less on your kids. Because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. This was at the beginning of my sophomore year. We didn't start dating until the last day of my sophomore year. But we were friends, and he, in fact, dated another girl during this time. And then that really solidified for me that he did not like me. You know, we were just friends. Then they broke up, and then he was from the Boston area. And his family has a. They have a house on the Cape. Okay. They're rich. I'm just helping the story along. He is a Boston Brahmin. Brahmin. So. Wait, what's a Brahmin? A Brahmin is like this group of people who have been here since the Mayflower. They were the pilgrim. You can, like, trace their families back to that time. So, he's seventh, sixth or seventh generation Harvard. Generation. Wow. Yeah. He's one of them. Talk about legacy. Holy smokes. So, but really cool. Yeah. Really cool. He's in the sociology class. Clearly. He's cool. We gonna give him that. So, he says to me, the day before the last day, I'm about to go home to Florida for the summer. He says, you know, do you want to go to the Cape and see my family's Cape house that I've been telling you all about? And I said, okay, sure. And he goes to his family's house. He gets the car. He picks me up and we're driving. And I remember sitting in the car going, is this a date? I wonder if this is a date. I don't know. Justice Jackson's like, I've never been on one. I've never been on one. So, I don't know. I don't know if this is how it goes. You just get in the car with the guy. I hope so because he was cute and he invited me. So, we go to this Cape house and it's closed because it hasn't opened yet for the summer. It's kind of cold. Because you learn that about summer houses, too. Yes, you do. We don't know about that. I don't know anything about it. You got another house? I do. I do. It's not open yet. It's not open. Why would the door be closed? It was closed. Exactly. So, we go to this house and we're walking around and he's showing me. And the house is actually on a private island. It's like a whole thing. Did you have to take a ferry to get there? There's a one-lane little bridge that goes over. But there's seven houses on this island. You didn't have any of that? Get out. No. No. Not at the time. Don't go over the bridge. No, but so we're walking around and he's showing me. We're down by the water and it's all great. Nothing happens. He doesn't try to hold my hand. He doesn't try. We're by ourselves the whole day. By the end of it, I am furious. Furious. It's like you wasted my time. I was like, I thought this was a date. I thought you liked me. Obviously, you don't. I just want to go home. And he says, my family lives in Dedham, which is not too far from Cambridge. Why don't I take you there and I'll make dinner and then I'll take you back to the dorm and you can finish packing. I say, whatever. Because I'm like, furious. So we go to his house and his parents are there and they're very lovely and he makes spaghetti or something for dinner. And then he says, well, why don't we watch a movie? And then after the movie, I'll take you home. And I was like, fine. So we go to the den and we sit down. And I'm just thinking, I just, I'm so humiliated. What was the movie? The movie was Al Pacino's Sea of Love. And we're sitting there and he turns off the lights and we're sitting and I'm just very, very annoyed. And he does one of these things. Okay. And I'm like. Patrick making a move. I jump up and I say no. Because I had convinced myself that he did not like me. Oh, you didn't say that to him. He was saying that in your head. No, I said no to him. No, but all of us, she was mad. You were happy. Yes, all of us. The mad stuff was in my head because I figured he had a whole day to show some affection. He had not done so. And so he was now just trying to take advantage of me as far as I was concerned. I was like, this is crazy. So I jumped up and I said no. And he said, what's wrong? And he stood up and I said, I just don't want to be hurt. And he said, Ketanji, I will never hurt you. I love you. Whoa. I know. And I was like. And the crowd goes silent. And there are tears. I was like. And then the music plays. I was, I mean, it was, I was shocked because I really, I'd never had a relationship. I didn't think he liked me. I liked him so much, but this was a disaster. Yeah. And then he told me he loved me. And it was. On your first date. On our first date. So from that day. But they had been thrilled. So from that point until we got married, six and a half years. Through his medical school, through my law school, we dated and then got engaged. He's a doctor too, y'all. So we got married six and a half, and we've been married now. In October, it will be 13 years. Oh, wow. It's such a beautiful, beautiful story. That's almost as good as our story. So one of the big brother, so what did your brother and your dad say? I bring him home. Okay. The summer after he graduates. Guess who's coming to dinner. And my brother was a little eyebrows up, like, who is this person? He talks, my brother talks about how he thought, this is strange that my daughter is, you know, dating this guy. But he learned very quickly how devoted he was to me and my dad as well. You know, when we got married, Patrick, he comes from a very traditional family. I come from a very traditional family. So he actually made arrangements to fly down to Florida to ask my parents for my hand in marriage and did so without my knowledge. I didn't know he was doing this. And so he tells a story about how he sat down with them in the den and said, I've been dating your daughter for six years, as you know, and I'm really interested in asking her to marry me. And my dad was like, well, you know. Back when I was in the Black Power Movement, you would not have been caught dead in my house. Not to mention, you know, asking for my daughter's hand. My one and only. He said, but I see how you have treated her. I know that you love her. And my mother said, I have two questions. Two questions. Do you believe in God? And do you love my daughter? Yeah. And he answered both of them in the affirmative. And she said, you have my blessing. And he. What about your brother? My brother. My brother was on board by this time. My brother was on board. And your families have blended. You know, you write about how well received his family has been of you and supportive in the same way. They're wonderful. You know, just want to get that on the record, too. They're wonderful. But so here you guys are, two hard drivers. You are going to be the first Black Supreme. Supreme Court justice. And he's going to be some neurosurgeon, you know, general surgeon, general surgeon, general surgeon, which means the structures of the abdomen. People don't know that. All the other. I didn't know. All the other sort of specialties are parts of the body. And when you say I'm a general surgeon, it means the gut. Oh, my goodness. So he does a lot of those operations. But he's cutting people open and doing really hard things in life, which requires force. Focus and attention. Right. So how talk about how you two together have managed building a family with the stresses, the absences that had had to occur. I mean, you know, probably like me and Barack, you know, Barack's running for office. He's in state Senate. He's in the U.S. Senate. You know, we're building a family at a time when we're basically commuting. You know, and I've got my career and he's got his. And how do you weave those paths together? Can you talk about the good and the bad times of it all? Well, it was very, very challenging. I cover some of it, you know, in the memoir. It's I think one thing that was helpful for us is that we met in college. We were with each other through our respective graduate schools. So we both knew that our careers and our careers. Our professions were very important to us. And I think that helped me to be patient when he was on call, which was a lot, you know, going through residency. The medical training program, especially for surgery, is very long and very intense. He trained at the Mass General, which is one of the top surgical programs in the country and a very demanding one. And he was there when we had our first daughter. So I had to actually I clerked for the Supreme Court. He had taken some time off to come down to D.C. while I was clerking. And then I took basically went back to Boston because he had to finish his residency at the Mass General and had our first child. And I'm in a law firm and he is a resident and we have an infant. And it was very tough early on. I think we managed it in part because we tried to take turns with whose career needed the most. Attention at the time. So when he was a resident, I just went into a regular law firm, even though I knew I wasn't going to do law firm work long term. Oh, my God. And the way you talk about law firm work. Yeah, I was like, girl, I'd so. Yeah, I'm sorry. You remember that. You remember that. I remember this the way you describe the hardship and the the culture. Yes. And billable hours. Billable hours. And trying to breastfeed. Yes. And keep up with your billable hours. And talk more about that. No, it was so challenging. I had an infant. My husband was a surgical resident. So he was basically absent. We had to have a nanny, obviously, in order to manage child care during this time. And I remember that because my husband's hours were so unpredictable, he could never relieve the nanny. Yeah. And the stress of that because the nanny is working on hours. Yeah. She's there for eight hours. Yeah. Yeah. She's there for eight hours max in the day. You don't want your nanny working for more than that because she's caring for your child. And so you have to really be on top of it. But that meant I was the one who at five o'clock every day had to say to whatever partner I was working with or whatever, I'm so sorry, but I need to go because I have to take the train to where my car is and take my car. It was like a 45 minute commute to get home. And I had to relieve the nanny by six o'clock because my husband would never do that. And the pressure on me as someone who had really prided myself in being the hardest worker in being available to do whatever my boss wanted me to do. All of those things collided because I couldn't be there. And we're talking about a time where there was not cell phones and the ability to take work home. This was not an internet age where you could work for you right now. I understand that you can. Have an infant and then you leave at five o'clock, but you're back online by seven. That was not the world at that time. So when you were out of the office, you were done not billing those hours. And I had to go every day. And the stress, I mean, it was just excruciating. How did you talk to Patrick about it? I mean, and you're also probably trying not to put stress on him. Well, that was the hardest part because when he was home, he used to do. A schedule when he was a resident that had him sleeping in the hospital every other night. So the night that he was home, he actually had to get sleep. So the question was who was waking up in the middle of the night with the baby. He's not there at all because he's at the hospital. So it's me. And when he's there, he really has to sleep. So it's me. So it was, I mean, the time when our infant daughter in Boston for the first two years of her life was probably the most difficult time. Both in my marriage and in my professional life, because I was doing everything. And I didn't want to make him feel guilty or put stress on him. So much so that when he got an extra year, his surgical residency was five years long. And they asked him at the end of it to stay for another year and be like a junior attending to supervise. It's a huge honor to do this. And he really wanted to do it. And I said, I'm not going to do it. I said, yes, but what we'll need to do is I'm going to take my daughter and the nanny and move down to Washington, D.C. Because I wanted to start my career at a law firm in Washington, D.C. And I said, this is going to be good for you because you don't have to feel the guilt of coming, having to rush home, having to be with us. You can do this position, which is going to be extraordinarily time intensive without worrying about us. We're going to go down. So I took the nanny, paid her, hired her to live with me and the baby so that he could have this experience without the worry. And it was good in that sense. I mean, he could just put his all into that and we were fine, but it was very stressful this time. And that was for a year. That was for a year. For about a year. Yeah. How often did you guys see each other during that time? You know, he probably came home three or four times during that time. But I don't know. I mean, he was doing, he was running a part of the Mass General's like trauma intake service. So I don't, I don't watch the pit, but I hear it's really good. He was like the, you know, running the whole thing and the hours were insane and he wanted that experience and it made him a better surgeon. And because I knew how important to the, I never wanted him to feel resentful, you know, to like miss out on an opportunity because he had to give it up. You know, we all have these periods, you know, it's, it's almost guaranteed. guaranteed, especially if you've got two people who have ambition and have dreams or hopes, there are going to be periods of really, really hard stuff. That's right. That's one of the reasons why I wrote about this period. Yes. Because I wanted people to see that you can go through hard things and if you stick with it, it'll be worth it in the end that other successful people have faced similar challenges. I wanted to be honest about that part of my life. And you never had to put your foot on the brake of your career, but you did have to let up off the gas. Absolutely. You had to set different expectations for yourself. You had to be okay with not being perfect. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Which is not easy. It is not. For someone who has gotten to a certain level in your career, you're used to working, a certain way, and producing at a certain level. And at times you need to say, I'm going to take this job or do this thing that may not be. And I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to be the best at it. Exactly. I'm not going to be one, number one, but I'm not going to be the last 1,000. Exactly. I'm not going to be the last 1,000. It's one of those milestones that sounds simple in theory, but often has a learning curve. And finding the right playbook for you can be challenging. Progressive's Open the House initiative is committed to breaking down these barriers by providing the knowledge, tools, and financial support to help more people purchase their first home. Their Up Payment program is offering down payment assistance of up to $13,500 each to at least 200 eligible first-time homebuyers. 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Well, I want folks to really get an understanding of the path, the career path that is required. I mean, I understand what clerkships are and the order of, you know, choices and acceptances you have to get in order to even be qualified to be a candidate for the Supreme Court. Can you walk our listeners through that process? Which starts with being at the top of your Harvard Law School class and being on the Harvard Law Review. Yes, yes. Being on something like Law Review. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Being on something like Law Review is an important training ground if you want to be a judge because it helps you to think about the law in a very academic way, systematic way. You are getting a lot of exposure to legal writing, which is what judges ultimately do. I then went on to clerk, that is become an assistant in chambers to judges. And I actually had the great good fortune of clerking for three different judges at the three different levels of the federal system. So in our federal criminal justice system, we have the trial level, the court of appeals level, and the Supreme Court. Talk about the levels too, because district court, how is that different from the appellate court? That's different from the Supreme Court. And I really just want to educate people. Yes, absolutely. So the first level, the trial level is called the district court in the federal system. And at that level, that is when people who have a dispute and they say we're going to file a lawsuit, you start by filing it before a single judge in the district court. So each judge sits on their own. They each have their own courtroom. And the real goal at that level is to establish the facts of a case. This is where trials happen. This is where people who are accused of crimes. This is where people who are accused of crimes are accused of crimes. This is where you have the prosecutor filing charges and they pick a jury. All of that is happening at the trial level. So you really, as a young lawyer working with a judge in that environment, you learn so much about meeting people and interacting with the real people and developing the facts in a case. The court of appeals level is the next level. And the person who loses at the trial level has the ability to appeal. And that is basically to challenge what happened in the trial. And say that there was something wrong legally with the process that led to their loss. The court of appeals level is three judges who are on panels and they are interacting mostly with the lawyers. Because when you have an appeal, you hire a lawyer who will take your case to these three judges. Because the facts are established. Exactly. The facts have already been established. And the appellate judges are supposed to take those facts and really just review the legal aspects and whether the law was properly applied below the law. And they read the transcripts basically of the lower court proceedings. I had the great good fortune of having a lot of different jobs in this early period before I became a judge. But I did clerk for judges at all three levels. And I ended up being appointed as a judge at all three levels. So my first judicial appointment was actually made by your husband. I was appointed to the and did that trial level work for about seven and a half years before President Biden appointed me to the appellate court in Washington, D.C., where I did the three judge panel legal reviews. And then I was appointed to the Supreme Court. So it's been quite a journey. Highly, highly qualified. Can you talk a bit about why judges are important? You know, I run into this all the time. You know, people, you know, you get your ballot, assuming you're voting. Mm hmm. And there's the long list of judges, right? At the state level, right? And you're checking them off. And a lot of people are like, what? That's a hassle. You know, I got to go through that. And why is it important? Or is it, does it even matter? Yes. Who is a judge? Can you talk a bit about why people should be informed, aware, and care who their judges are? So I will just say, and you're right, that I encounter this a fair amount. People who really don't understand the significance. Judges are important to democracy and to liberty for every single person who lives in our society. And I say that because in order for us all, with all of our different backgrounds and all of our different views and feelings about how things should happen, all of the disputes that arise just from being people living together in society, you have to have a forum to resolve those disputes peacefully. So we don't have people at each other's throats all the time or taking it, you know, upon themselves to resolve disputes. You have to agree to take this to court if it's something that you are truly at odds over. Which is going to happen when you just have a free society. So in order to agree, we all have to believe that there is a judicial system that is going to be fair, that is going to be neutral. That when you bring your dispute to the court, that judge doesn't have any pre-existing stake in the particular issue. That they're listening to both sides and fairly reviewing the evidence. And coming up. And coming up with a decision that is a just one. Somebody's going to win. Somebody's going to lose. But we have to have that forum so that we can live together peacefully in our society. So it's really, I mean, it's crucial. So Mish made the obvious point that you're well qualified for this and you've had some experiences in the whole level, all the levels. Yes. Has the job. Has the job met your expectation? Oh, you know, I don't know that I had a whole lot of expectations. It was such a blur getting this to this position, going through the process of being confirmed, getting there. Because I had clerked at the Supreme Court, I think I had a good sense of what it was going to be like. But it's so much more. I mean, it's just extraordinary. I'm so privileged to do this work. To serve the American people in this way. To be in the room, the room where it happens. It's really, I'm so grateful for it. And I think in that way, it has absolutely surpassed any expectation that I had. Well, we're fortunate to have you. Can you, how has life changed? We talked a little bit about our shared bubble experiences. Do you feel comfortable just talking about. Oh, sure. You know, how being a life-appointed Supreme Court justice affects your day-to-day? And what are the limits? And how are your kids managing? And what are the highs and what are some of the lows? Well, it is a big, big change. It's a big commitment. I think the thing that has been most startling, in a way, is the need for security in a way that you didn't have before. That I had never experienced. And I was on the lower courts, but they don't have the same level of security or security needs as the justices do. And so it has meant really having to adjust my life. I can't just go out in any meaningful way as I used to. And that can be a downside. Just not being able to live a normal life. I know you know what it's like to feel confined. But again. Again, I mean, it's certainly a privilege to do the work and to have the platform. That goes without saying, you know. But it's also okay to acknowledge those changes. I know how you feel. You never want to come off as not grateful for service, especially people like us who were raised to be public servants. Yes, absolutely. You also have to watch your exposure to things so that there isn't a bias. That's exactly right. And what does that mean for you in terms of reading the paper and listening to the news? And how do you get your information? And what do you have to be careful about? And how are you dealing with the potential conflicts so that you do stay, you know, above board? No, you really have to be focused on that. There are employees in the court who, in the legal office of the court, in the public information office of the court, who are assisting us in that way. When I get invitations to do things, I always have them screened by the legal office, the public information office, just to make sure that there are no ethical conflicts, that this is not a fundraiser. You know, there are lots of limits on what judges can do. And I try to be very, very mindful and scrupulous with respect to that because, as you say, our obligation is to be unbiased in our approach. And so you have to then… Navigate all the sources that could make for an appearance of partiality, which you want to avoid. So there are lots of things that I end up not accepting for that reason. News sources, I think, you know, I don't have a lot of time, unfortunately, you know, but I do, you know, the normal general media sources are made available. And I think… I think it's harder when you're talking about, there's so much social media now. I know, this is a whole different world. It's a whole different world and not everything is reliable. And the hardest part for judges is that we really cannot participate. Probably saving you some brain cells. Exactly. That we need you focused on your opinions. Yes. We actually have a listener question to answer. Oh, we do. We do. Okay. That you've been so gracious. Oh. And thorough. With your time, generous and thorough with your time. Thank you. It's just, but we want to help some folks out. Sure. One last bit of advice. Okay. From our listener. From our listener, who's Lisa from San Diego. I am an entry-level professional working under a new boss who has a very specific way of communicating and executing work. I know that it's important to develop mentors in an early career position, but I have struggled to connect with her. I've noticed that even small deviations in language or approach are met with strong criticism. And I'm finding it difficult to balance staying true to my own working style while meeting her expectations. How can I adapt without feeling like I'm losing my voice or confidence at work? And how do I make sure I find people who really have my back and help me grow my career? That's an excellent question. I mean, mentors are very important in terms of professionalism. Professional development, that's what I've seen. I wonder whether Lisa has had occasion to talk with her boss and potential mentor, because it's possible that this person is not aware of the difficulty that Lisa is having. And if she were to say something like, you know, I really want to develop our relationship. I would love to have you as my mentor in this work. And how can I communicate in a way that will be most productive? Because I want this to be a good working relationship. If she expresses an interest in the boss's views of this, I think that she might find a receptive audience. And if she doesn't, then she knows that this might not be the right fit for her professionally. But I would give it. A chance. A chance by really just being open and coming from a perspective of I really want this to work. And I'm open to feedback and wanting to know how we can improve. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am surprised as somebody who's led and managed. You know, I think people who work with you don't realize that sometimes your boss is just not focused. Yes. Yes. Not because they don't care, but because the assumption. The assumption is that there's the mission that sometimes takes precedent over how you're doing and is this working out. And that doesn't necessarily indicate lack of intent to mentor, but sometimes you lose track. And I think it's true, like giving your boss the benefit of the doubt and at least making an effort to communicate. And that's a scary thing. Very scary. You know, it doesn't happen a lot because it feels scary. But you want to make sure you don't overstep or misstep. Another thing that I. I would suggest for Lisa, if the conversation is had and it isn't as productive as she'd hoped, to think about whether there are other people who are not her direct supervisor within her work environment that can be kind of a mentor or a sounding board. I found this to be true when I was practicing at Sidley, my firm. I mean, I enjoyed all the partners that I worked with, but I also made it a point to meet with senior associates. I found that some of those partners, particularly the women, were the people that I could talk to. Yes. You know, and oftentimes I would go to them in confidence, you know, after you understood that they could hold your confidence. Yes. And that you would establish that relationships. That relationship, I found them to be better mentors. Yes. Right? Yes. Because they could also commiserate. You know, they could give me a perspective on where that partner was. Sometimes they knew what was going on. And I got some of my best advice in the law firm from other partners who I wasn't working with. Who you weren't working with, but went to. Went to. Right. And especially you can find those people as well. Yes. If they're doing the kind of work that you're interested in, sometimes that could develop into a working relationship. But at least going to them and asking for advice or for lunch, the opportunity to talk informally and being humble in a way always helps. You know, when you go to anybody who is more senior than you. That's great advice. I don't have too much to add. I've always felt that being a direct boss doesn't necessarily make you a good mentor. Oh, for sure. That is true. And so you hit on my point is find a mentor who's not your direct supervisor without going over that person's head. And also, not everybody's going to be a great boss. That's true. Or a great mentor. Or a great mentor. Yes. Not every boss will be a great mentor, as you said. And sometimes there's learning in that. You know, you just have to develop the skin to know the difference. It's like sometimes you're going to have a difficult situation, and it's difficult, and it's not you. So how do you make sure you get through that hole, right? And if you don't think you can get through it whole, then the question becomes maybe it's time to move on. But I always caution people, especially in this economy, keep your job. As long as you can. Don't walk out. Well, and you know the other thing I always say is don't burn bridges. When you walk out, assuming you have something else lined up, it is super important to have the people you leave behind have a good sense of you and not feel that you have slighted them in any way. Because you never know when you're going to have to cross that bridge again. That's right. And you want them to be out there saying good things about you. Even though you don't work there anymore. That's right. Well, hopefully that helps Lisa. Justice Jackson, you know, you have given us a lot of time. I'm delighted. We really appreciate it. Thank you for coming to IMO. Thanks for being here. Thank you for giving me this chance. It's been delightful. Oh, my goodness. Like I said, delightful. And. The lovely one. The young adult's version is out there in the world. You know, you still got to read the original adult's version. It's a beautiful story. It really is. Thank you so much. And thank you for sharing with us. Appreciate it. 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