Speaker 1Hello and welcome to the How Not To Screw Up Your Kids podcast. So, pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat and enjoy the conversation. This episode, motherhood, what no one tells you. Sorry, you have to excuse me laughing. There was a real emphasis on what no one tells you. Anyway, let's start again. This episode, motherhood, what no one tells you, is a little different from my usual episodes. Now, back in October, so it had been a month or two ago, I was invited to the screening of Nightbitch. Now, you may not yet know, but Nightbitch is an American black comedy horror film. Please don't let that description put you off. It really is. It's a film directed by Marielle Heller and it's based on the 2021 novel by Rachel Yoda and it stars Amy Adams. And in essence, it is a story about motherhood. I would really genuinely encourage you to go and watch it. Now, you get an invitation to something like that. It's a story about motherhood. It's a story that you go. And I was totally and utterly blown away. It's not what you expect. I mean, if you have a quick sort of internet search about Nightbitch and Rachel's book, it really chronicles one woman's journey. And in the narrative of the film and in the narrative of book, Amy Adams plays mother, and then there is child, and then there is husband. But what it really does, I felt, in terms of how I received it and my experience with it, it really chronicles one woman's journey. And in the narrative of the film and in the narrative of the film and in the narrative of the film, it really chronicles the very unique journey that is motherhood. How that feels on the inside, the monotony of those very early young childhood days of, you know, rinse and repeat. But also what it chronicles is that, I guess, that sense of grief, that sense of loss that we experience. I say we, maybe we don't all experience it, but certainly when I think about my own personal journey, into motherhood, I was desperate to be a mother. It was something that I had wanted and just assumed that I would be from a really, really young age. I was very fortunate enough. I was in a position I was able to conceive very easily. So I didn't have any challenges on that part of the journey. But where I think it's an interesting debate and an interesting discussion, certainly from the, you know, the latter part experiences when I am working with children who are not confident or who are anxious. And of course, the way that I work is I always work with parents. Is that actually what parenting brings, and I think motherhood is more amplified in this particular sort of view is, we all have a particular preconceived idea of what parenting is going to be like. We spend a huge amount of time in that early pregnancy stage, making decisions around whether we're going to have this vaccination or that vaccination, and whether we're going to breastfeed or bottle. We spend such a huge amount of time around these things before we have this gorgeous little bundle, who then has their own personality and either sleeps straight away or doesn't, and all of the challenges that that brings. But we kind of come into it with these preconceived ideas, and there's nothing wrong with that. But this sort of idea about what a we're going to make, how we're going to live our lives. And my view is when it comes to motherhood, particularly, is that everything is blown out of the water. The minute you have this bundle, from then on, every idea of how you are going to go about things, who you will be, how you will live your life, everything to me, it's like you write all of these things down in your head. And it's screwed up, ripped up multiple times, shredded, and then literally put into the fire. It's like nothing that you ever thought life was going to be like as a mother tends to transpire. Now, there may be some of you listening to this that will say, absolutely, no, Mary-Anne, I'm living exactly how I expected it to be. My view is that I think that that, if you are one of those people listening to this, you're a very rare mum. Because for so many, there are various different stages of grief, of all of the things that we thought things were going to be like. Maybe a bit of ideology. I'm always a bit of a dreamer. So, I'm particularly guilty of this, of anticipating I'm going to be able to do this and this, and I'm going to be like that. And I do believe that what then happens is this unique experience that is motherhood is completely littered, that path, is littered with compromises, disappointment, and grief. And I think it's very unique to mothers. This is not an anti-fathers. This is talking specifically about what it means and the journey and the life of a mother. I don't believe that fathers have the same experience. I think they have different challenges, but I don't think they have the same sort of experience. And so, this film, Night Bitch, for me, really captured so much of that experience of motherhood and not just the early experiences. In the film, you see mother with child in those sort of, you know, up to sort of three, four years old sort of period. But so much of what you see on screen mirrors so many of her experiences. And she goes to one, so she's an, she was an artist and, she bumps into a colleague in the supermarket who does that. You know, we've all been there where they do that. Oh, you're so lucky. What's it like being home? You get to stay home. And you get this sort of, this scene where it initially cuts to Amy, mother, giving sort of a real narrative about what it's like. You know, I, I get out, but I clean shit and I do this, that, and the other. And then of course you get that complete retake. And then she does the usual thing that we do as mothers. Oh, it's so lovely. I feel so blessed. The sort of, I don't know, maybe it's propaganda that we believe or that pressure societally about how we need to be and how we need to present ourselves. Because God forbid, we can't possibly say, I'm really not enjoying this. I really miss the career that I had. I miss being able to have a cup of tea all the way through from the minute I've made it to the end. I miss just having five hours or so to myself to think it's that whole narrative. And the film is littered with a lot of that. There's a dinner that she goes to with some colleagues and it's almost as if everyone is talking a different language and she's somewhat muted. So I really, really would recommend this film. So go out and watch it. I really think that that would be, and I think it's a film that you go with a couple of girlfriends. I just think, you know, other mothers. And in fact, whilst obviously for me, it really is a film that I would recommend. I think it's a film that I would from the perspective of mother. What I do believe it does offer as well is that process of where you have lost your identity, who you once were as a result of becoming a mother. That doesn't mean that this film, and I think it will equally resonate if for whatever reasons you've changed career, it's got nothing to do with motherhood, but maybe you have a poorly parent and now you've got a new role as carer. I just think that there is so much of this film that particularly resonates. So the second part of this podcast episode is I was not only super lucky to have been invited to view this film before it was released in a screening. I was then also incredibly privileged to be afforded the chance to speak to the director, Marielle Heller. And so the second part is going to be my interview with her and it's a cracker. So before we then move on to Marielle, as ever, if you end up enjoying this podcast episode, if you enjoy the podcasts generally, you share, you like, you follow, I would be so grateful if you could just take a moment. Now, let me just quickly explain a little bit about the way the situation works. When you follow a podcast, when you click that button to say that you want to follow, what that means is every podcast episode gets automatically added to your library ready for you to listen to. So you don't need to worry about anything else like that. You just listen to it when you're ready. But as the new episodes come out, they're there ready and waiting for you. So if you've enjoyed this episode, if you enjoy listening to How Not to Screw Up Your Kids, please could you follow, rate and review this podcast so that others can find us and we can spread the love. So until next time, here's Marielle. Can I just start by saying, wow, genuinely, super, super moved by Night Bitch. it was incredible. Your portrayal of motherhood was honest, it was moving, it was actually incredibly empowering, I found. But what struck me was the way that you were able to shine a light on the power within, that is often hidden within every woman and between women. So I guess it's a really great place to start with sort of what drew you to this particular novel and this project.
Speaker 2Well, I think that connection between women and our power and the acknowledgement of that power is something that probably took me a number of years after having my first kid to be able to admit and acknowledge and recognize in other women. I have an almost 10-year-old and a four-year-old. And this book came to me when I had just had my second kid. And I was feeling very isolated. And yet my anchors within the world were the other mothers who I talked to on the show. And so I think that's a really great place to start. And I think that's a really good daily, you know. And it took me a long time, I feel like, when I had my first kid to really recognize how important that community of women was for me. You know, that you really need to have people who you can talk to about the mundane details of parenting, whether it's like, okay, so he woke up from his nap at this time and he went down at this time. What time should I do the next nap? Or look at this weird poop. Is this okay? Or what do you think about this? Or whatever it is. And I think that's a really good place to start. Yeah, well, that's palpable.
Speaker 1I won't have any spoilers for anyone who should watch it, but it is really palpable that you kind of see that. And that sort of, that transition within there. And the power is just so unbelievably evident in there. They say don't ever work with children and animals. And you did both.
Speaker 2Yes. You know, what was so great, our twins who play the son and the daughter, in the movie, they turned three on our camera test day. So they were just barely three. And you know, at that age, kids are so spontaneous and so alive. And so, I mean, if you've had kids, if you've been around kids, you know, they're like the most present in the moment out of anybody in the world. And when you go to acting school, you know, one of the exercises they have you do is to like follow around a toddler and try to act like a like almost try and get in touch with what it is to just be pure instinct and know not getting stuck in your head at all. And I feel like that's what you always want from your actors on a set. You know, you want your actors to just do all of this work, prepare, know their lines, know they're blocking, and then throw it all away and be spontaneous and be in the moment. And these kids just put you right there. It's like you can, you have to be spontaneous and present in the moment. And I think that's kind of a wonderful thing, I think, for everybody on set. And the dogs too. It's like, I don't know, there's something, it would have been too easy without these elements. We needed to make things a little spicier.
Speaker 1Definitely. Well, that's great. Did anything come away from the movie once you'd filmed it? Did anything kind of come with you in lots of ways into your everyday life as a result of making it?
Speaker 2I mean, I did get a dog for the first time after making this movie. I've always been a cat person and I can't believe it. I adopted a puppy, but it's definitely my night bitch dog. No, I mean, listen, when reading Rachel's book, there were so many moments that I feel like her book reminded me about the sort of power of play and getting in touch with your own instincts and how much more pleasure you can get, at least, or I can get in parenting when I'm sort of in touch with this like playful, animalistic part of myself. And I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing. I think self and letting go of the part of my brain that is worried about how I should be doing things or how things look or whatever it is. And it's just about being present in the moment with your kids and like rolling around on the grass or whatever. So in that way, I think that was the best thing that I took away from her book. And then in terms of making this as a movie too of like, how do we just be with our kids without all these ideas of what we're meant to do and just really be in the moment? And if you're really in the moment and you're listening to your instincts and their instincts, where can that lead you?
Speaker 1Yeah. And that's a real powerful part of what comes out of here because actually it's a real tonic to that Instagram picture perfect view of what mother particularly looks like.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Yes. And I think, you know, moms, it's like, we're so encouraged to nurture and we're much less encouraged to play. And I came from a very playful mom who is an artist and did art with us and our house was filled with messy art projects at all times. And I think it's very, I don't know, there's this kind of instinct that to be a perfect mom, you have to have everything together and everything neat and tidy and all these things when really what kids want and need a lot of the time is to feel accepted and freedom and that they can play and explore and they're not going to break something or we're not going to be more upset. They broke some fancy thing, you know? So that was, I don't know, that was a fun thing to kind of take away and keep as a little gift from the project of like getting back in touch with the playful parts of parenthood.
Speaker 1Yeah. Because there's such a conflict between actually what your child wants and needs and we instinctively know and what society, the pressure on society. And you, there is one scene, I don't, I won't go into it too much, so I don't spoil it, but that's the one scene where you're like, oh, I don't know what to do. And you're like, supermarket scene when mother bumps into this colleague is in essence, who's taken over her role so palpable in terms of what actually we think and what we actually say.
Speaker 2Yeah. Well, because there is this feeling, I, I remember it starting when I was pregnant, but once you have a kid too, where everybody in the world wants you to respond in a certain way to their questions, like, how are you feeling? Isn't it so hard? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. It's so wonderful or whatever it is. And they want to touch your belly and say, or, or once you have a baby, the question is always like, how are they sleeping? Are they sleeping well? And if you have a kid who doesn't sleep, which my first child didn't sleep, you kind of feel like, why are you asking me that? I want to rip your head off, but also why is that the first question? Like the ways in which I'm failing at this, you know, why isn't the first question just like, is your baby happy? Or how are you feeling? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. There's just all of these feelings of how you're doing it wrong all the time. And yeah, it's true. And, and I do feel like the Instagram culture of, I mean, I've gotten myself off of social media totally, but this sort of like, there's always something, whether it's how to make the perfect lunch or how to do this or whatever it might be, but all of these pressures that are heaped upon mothers that are just insane of the ways that we're supposed to make this look. And there's just no way to do it. There's just no way to do it. There's no way to live up.
Speaker 1No. And particularly because, you know, this sort of assumption, aren't you lucky to be at home? Yes. Rather than actually, how do you feel about it?
Speaker 2Yeah. And that maybe you feel really conflicted about it and maybe part of you loves it and part of you hates it. And, you know, I have a friend who said, a friend who was a working mother who said, I know that it's sort of taboo to say, but I always think, oh, TGIM, thank God it's Monday because it's like, she's so happy to be at home. I don't know. I don't know. I'm so happy when she gets to go back to work and be away from her kids after the long weekend. And we're not allowed to say that out loud. You know, we're not allowed to say these conflicting ideas we might have about how all of this feels. Cause yeah, you're supposed to just be grateful. I mean, women in particular, I think are always conditioned to be grateful rather than honest.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly. Amy's portrayal of mother was powerful. She was absolutely incredible. How did you, what was that experience of working together and how did it come about? She actually
Speaker 2brought this project to me when it was, she, the, the book had not been published yet. It was an early manuscript of the book and she optioned it with her company and with Annapurna and they brought it to me and it was sort of the perfect moment because I was, I think I was about six months after having my daughter. I was just starting to imagine going back to work and the book was just so perfect. And Amy, and Amy was just the perfect person to play this character. And she also, I could write it with her in my head. head. But also she was like, I don't know how you make this into a movie. Like you'll have to come to it with a vision. And I think you could be the perfect person to do that, but I'm not here to say how it should go. And that was sort of the perfect thing for her to say to me too, if I'm being
Speaker 1honest. And so when, what was the most difficult, what was the most challenging part about taking Rachel's novel and then adapting it for the screen?
Speaker 2I mean, the truth of the adaptation process was it was really cathartic and fun to write because it was my life and I got to feel like I was just sinking. I could take anything that was making me nuts in my life and put it right into the script. But yeah, the novel is really internal. It's sort of like an internal monologue and it's, there's very little dialogue or interaction with the outside world. It's very much all within her perspective, which I, in one way, I love, I love a very subjective story that you as an audience can tell. I love that this movie really gives you, whether you've ever been a mother or not, it gives you this, it makes you feel like you've experienced what it is to be a first time parent moving through the world who's given up her career. But that's the challenge of it too. The challenge was trying to also take that internal world and externalize it, which is where I came up with this kind of novel. The concept of her speaking out loud and nobody hearing her, this invisibility idea and sense of what it is to feel like. Am I even a person? Does anybody even know what I, does anyone care what I have to say anymore? I'm just this child's mom. I no longer have my own identity. And also does anyone care what I have to say?
Speaker 1And I think the film speaks to it. I mean, obviously it's called Night Bitch. It's very much centered around motherhood. But I think- And I think that it has a much wider message beyond that. And again, there's a scene when mother is actually having a meal with her contemporaries, which I felt transcended just motherhood. It was just about people.
Speaker 2Well, and I think, you know, weirdly after COVID, we all even more had that feeling, I think, of what it is to be trapped in your own mind and feeling really isolated or like you've lost touch with your contemporaries. Or you're not keeping up or you're not doing something you should be doing or that imposter syndrome. I think we all experience when moving through the world that somehow we're not good enough or we're not able to keep up or in whatever way. And that feeling of, yeah, feeling sort of invisible in the world, I think is a really universal and human experience. It's very painful.
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, you did it. You did it brilliantly. Good. So throughout the film, Amy, this character is mother. There's no names. We've got mother, we've got husband, we've got son. Yeah. Why approach it that way?
Speaker 2You know, it was a device within the novel that I just loved. And I think for that exact reason of me feeling like I often go to the park and just introduce myself. I'm Wiley's mom. And a lot of people don't even know my name at the park because I'm just Wiley's mom. And you start to almost feel that that's your identity when you're a parent. I guess I didn't totally expect that. I didn't. I didn't expect how much. Somebody said to me, I remember celebrating a birthday when I was pregnant with my son. And I was celebrating my birthday. And somebody made a comment of like, last time you'll get to celebrate your birthday after this, it's all about the kid. You know, where there's this feeling of like, you no longer matter. Your identity no longer matters. It's all about your child. And in one way, that's freeing, right? You're letting go of this ego and this sort of self-love. And I think that's a really good point. Self-centeredness, and you're giving into something bigger. And in another way, there's this major grief and pain of letting go of yourself and who you were before. And so I loved the way Rachel didn't give these characters names. And I kind of took that and ran with it within the movie. You know, they're in an unnamed suburb outside of an unknown city. And the time is a letting it live in this light. It's not generic, but it could be anywhere, anyone, and that you can kind of feel hopefully a little connected to that experience of it. You know, I never get very specific about what the husband's job is. It kind of lives in this place where that's not what it's about. It's really about this experience of being a mother and loss of identity. And so, yeah, the
Speaker 1identity is vague. Well, it speaks to that, you know, it makes it a universal experience for all of us, isn't it really? And the ending could have been so many different, you could have had so many different options within that in terms of how you presented that. What made you go with what you did in the end?
Speaker 2You know, it was important to me that the movie focused on two main relationships that the mother has, her relationship with being a mother and her child, and her relationship with her husband, and so her family relationship, and then her relationship with her art. And whether she can integrate these two parts of herself, these two halves of herself, the family part of herself and the work part of herself or not. And I think she spends a while really just giving herself fully over to just being the mother part and then just giving over to being the artist part. And then hopefully at the end, there's a marriage of the two. There's a sense that she can integrate, kind of take, these parts of ourselves and hopefully have them work together, which is why in the end, I chose to kind of have her re-up her commitment to being a mother by having another baby. You know, I thought about the biggest question of the movie being, should I have become a mother? Did I make a huge mistake? Was this the right thing to do? And she answers that by doing it again. But she's also really finding a way that she doesn't have to be a mother. She doesn't have to be a mother. She doesn't have to shun being a mother and a wife in order to be an artist. And she doesn't have to shun being an artist in order to be a mother and a wife, but she can find a way to bring these things together.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I think what I felt was there that you sort of touched upon as well, it was around mother's ability to use her voice to then communicate with husband around her feelings around motherhood. Because they explode out of her.
Speaker 2She gets to a point where she can no longer hold these things. And so I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point.
Speaker 1It's almost like the gateway to her then really opening and discovering and integrating these various aspects of who she is.
Speaker 2Yes. And the way that he's able to eventually truly hear her and take it and shift, which not all men are always able to do. I happen to be married to a man who is able to do that and can change and shift and grow over the 25 years we've been together. I've watched him shift and grow. In ways that has really been powerful and necessary. And we wouldn't be together if that hadn't happened. But he's able to really take in because she's able to really finally say it all. He's able to change and take it in and shift and grow. And really actually say he's sorry, which is something that I think weirdly we very rarely see men apologize in an honest way in things. And it's becoming a bit of a credo for me to always want to have men apologize and apologize in real meaningful ways in movies. And people always want you to cut it out.
Speaker 1It's weird. Why do you think that that is? Why is it that we, is it a societal thing?
Speaker 2I think people, it is a societal thing where we're sort of uncomfortable with men apologizing. It just feels weak, something about it. It like, our first instinct is like, oh, we don't need to see that. We don't need to hear that. That's okay. And it's like, no, I think it's important. Yeah. Particularly explicitly. I think sometimes
Speaker 1it's often an implied apology
Speaker 2and that is just not. Exactly. No, he's got to say it. He's got to say the words.
Speaker 1Yeah. And you can see, I think it's that art display right at the end where it is just really palpable, this sudden acknowledgement of like, I had no idea. At this moment, I'm stepping into through your and looking at the world through your lens and, my, my, I had no idea.
Speaker 2Yeah. And that, that was my experience with my husband when I made my first movie. And he talked really specifically about it was, it wasn't until he saw other people seeing my work that he was able to go, oh my God, I didn't get it. I didn't know. And you have to do this.
Speaker 1Yeah. Oh, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for the meeting. I think this is an absolute, it's not just for mothers. It's not just for women. It's for fathers and men too. So thank you so much for doing it.
Speaker 2Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you. Great to talk to you. back to you.
Speaker 1Great to talk to you too. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thank you.
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