Most Contagious: KitKat's longevity secret, Scambaiter Granny and more

Welcome back to The Walk Podcast. I'm Anna Hammel, Senior Editor at Walk. Today we're coming to you with a very special episode, where it most contagious in London and event telling the stories behind 2025's most groundbreaking creative work. This is the first of a two-part series where The Walk Podcast is meeting the people behind those interesting campaigns, so be sure to follow us on your favourite platform to hear part two this coming Thursday. Today I'm speaking with the dynamic duo behind what Mark Ritzincore's the best-positioned brand in the world, Kit Kat. And we're also talking to the team who bought us the iconic scammer Granny. They're here to show us how they made an AI bot a scammer's worst nightmare. And finally, contagious's own trends editor Katrina Sturton-Dodd joins us to walk us through, which brands are really nailing community right now. But before we meet them, a quick note from our friends at Kairn Lines. Do you have brand new research, groundbreaking insight or an outstanding brand story that the industry needs to hear? Good news, Kairn Lines is now inviting on-stage content applications for the festival in June 2026. This is your chance to make history by speaking on the most coveted stage in the creative industry. You pitch the topic, the speakers, session format and more. Kairn Lines brings together inspiration from every corner of the creative marketing community. This is your chance to be a part of it. The deadline for submissions is 31st December 2025. To submit your idea, visit KairnLines.com. There's not many products that remain beloved for nearly a century, but for more than 90 years, Kit Kat, the iconic chocolate bar, has shown that consistency is a real superpower one paired with relevance. Kit Kat has stayed true to its strategic core while adapting to cultural shifts and changing consumer needs as tastes evolve. From protecting its distinctive assets to its consistently brilliant creative platform, this is a brand that just keeps on delivering. Joining me from the most contagious stage are wild jubbi, global head of marketing and communications at Kit Kat, and Joelle Capucci, global strategy director at their agency partner, VML. Joelle, well, welcome to the Walt Podcast. Thank you. Thanks. Your presentation broke down three ways that Kit Kat approaches the idea of consistency in its brands. So, timeless idea, timeless fundamentals based on timeless brand truths and timely relevance. Well, how does that framework and form your decision-making? I think it's really important because it's essentially if you think about those three things that you mentioned, it's essentially what stays fixed and what's flex. And I guess whenever you have new people coming on board, they're trying to figure out, okay, what's the problem to solve and how can we make things better? And I think before even getting to finding the problem, I think it's important to respect the history of the brand and understand what are the things that we believe are non-negotiably fixed and what are the things that we can play in? And so, having just that structure really guides us very clearly on what to do and what not to do. Yeah, it's been, Kit Kat's been around for over 90 years at this point. So when you are growing this brand, you must have to balance really the history of the brand and what it is to so many people while also evolving it for new audiences and new expectations. Absolutely. And I think that's the point of the flex part, which is how do we stay relevant to this next generation? And there's always this question. And so, if you look at the decades of marketing over the past generations, you've seen that how Kit Kat has managed to stay relevant to the next generation. And we talked a lot about that in the speech today. Jo, I want to come to you because one of the things that's most interesting about Kit Kat's success is that it consistently aligns a belief with a product truth, with an audience truth that through line is very clear. And then, of course, these are the distinctive assets which Kit Kat is especially well known for. Can you explain how that works in practice? How do you implement that thinking across all of the marketing activity that you're doing and the various channels that Kit Kat is operating in? Yeah, so it's starting with the three things that belief the product and the audience. I think that's the core thing for us to keep consistent. And no matter if we're doing a new product launch, we're always thinking about how is this going to benefit and help people on their break. And that's why it's really based on the product truth in terms of Kit Kat being designed from the get-go to be a product that you break and you use both hands and you really engage on the product experience and then how you just engage from everything else. So having that at the core of everything that we do really allows us to keep that central but then evolve into new ways to connect with people. And then, the distinctive brand assets are very simple. So we have five that we keep always consistent and then it's just a matter of kind of how they show up. How can we make that relevant in your contacts, new media, to new people. So it's really about keeping that consistent and the fixed and then just exploding out in different ways. So what the five distinctive brand assets that you mentioned, what are those? Yeah, so we have the logo, we have the shape of the product, that's the trapezoid shape, we have the the ritual which is a key reason to believe. As I was mentioning, you engage with the ritual and then you just engage with everything else. And then we have the brand mark and the collar which are quite simple in a way. Well, I want to come back to you. How do you use those distinctive assets over the course of many, many decades to keep putting out a product that people know they're going to love? Is it just a matter of what's working now as always historically worked so we continue to use it? Yeah, I think the way I like to think about it and this is probably something that I have thought about throughout all the brands that I've worked on is, no matter how much budget you have, you should always believe that you only have ten dollars in a trillion dollar attention economy. So, regardless if you're a small brand or a big brand, so if you have those ten dollars, what are you going to say within those ten dollars to actually drive the biggest bang for your buck? That's why those distinctive brand assets, they've been working for us for so long. Why change them? Let's make sure that we use them as consistently as possible to create that memory structure that we need for consumers because they're so inundated with so many different brands, so many different problems in their lives. You know, KitKat's the last thing they can think about, so we need to hammer it through as much as possible. So consistency matters. The cost of investing in something new, it's completely out of weight by kind of just keep building and pushing what's been working for us. That's really interesting. So, when you talk about evolving the brand for 2025 and staying relevant, is that more the messages that you're putting out? Is it the channels that you're using? How are you staying relevant to new generations as they come through? Yeah, so definitely it's not through the brand assets, the distinctive assets. It's how we're thinking about breaking in the time right now. So our latest campaign was really uncovered that people were taking breaks, but they're really struggling to switch off. It's really hard. Your mind is still racing. You're thinking about the things you need to do. You get loads of notifications writing through things, seeing the chat before on the Microsoft study of how you're paying to every four minutes, or not mistaken. So that sounds about right. Yeah. So that was really getting in the way of people's breaks. So therefore, a way of why was before we weren't talking too much about the quality of a break of really kind of taking that moment and switching off completely, we're really leaning into this new tension that we see with young consumers, but also it's relatable to everyone, I believe. So we evolve the meaning of the break in the context that we're living in in people's lives, looking at behaviors, data to how can we connect through the break with this generation or through different channels and so on. KitKat's brand positioning is famously one piece of paper, right? I want to ask, are the rooms true that it is one piece of paper? And the second part is, does that really help you and your teams focus on a very specific, deliverable in that way? I think a lot of brands would love to be as succinct as you have managed to be over so many years. No, that's another interesting one because we do have one piece of paper, but that piece of paper is so simple that people tend to overcomplicate it. So they have different interpretations of what do you mean by have a break of a KitKat? Are we the trigger of the break or are we enhancing the break? And when we say break, is it traveling or is it the five minutes? So even though it's very clear that we have that one piece of paper, we always need to kind of have the teams and work with them on follow up and really explaining it because when it is so simple, it's easy to make it more complicated than it is. Yeah, wow, what's your experience? Yeah, I think it's exactly that. I think there's a huge tendency in the community, in the marketing community, brand builders, you know, you study all these great things about marketing and how to do marketing, and then you come to this brand and then you see this one piece of paper. So the rumors are true. And you're like, okay, but what else? I'm sure there's more about this brand, but no, it really is that simple. We just have to have to be really clear, especially for as a global brand we are now, right? It's not just a British brand anymore. You have so many people who are involved in this brand who don't have English as their first language. And so you need to elaborate on what we mean by we say, when we say break, I mean, just look at the Oxford dictionary, you have 30 different definitions of the word break as a noun and even 20 more as a verb. So we need to be really pointed and clear. I mean, just last week we got a request to sponsor a break dancing event. Great. That's nothing to do with having a break. Yeah, but it's a really good example of how that word can mean many, many things. Well, there you go. Yeah. What's the most important lesson you want to share with other marketers about staying consistent, but also staying relevant? I think it's a two-speed approach. You need to understand what is it in your brand's history that's made it so popular and brought its all the success and you need to basically cherish those moments and try to identify what those are. I think that's really tough. You have to go back into the archives. You have to speak to previous leaders who have built that brand before you because it gives you a lot of shortcuts to the future. And then in terms of what's flexible, it's great to be involved in what's happening in culture and we talk a lot about in the most contagious event about all the different things happening in culture and finding those nuances and appearing to be popular. But I think it's really important to understand where is that sweet spot between what's in culture and what's connected with the brand's essence. Yeah, I think just building on that is thinking of consistency as something that empowers you to it's a springboard for you to go forward. Because usually we think of it as it's very limiting. It's stifles creativity or it becomes a little bit boring and or it's just a mandatory. Just something that's okay, let's take that box and that's it. But I think when you start to look for it and lean into it, that can really unlock a lot of work and great work. And that's what we've seen on kick out. When we lean into be it the distinctive assets or we lean into the break, it's literal meaning and what it means in culture and people's lives today, that's when the magic happens essentially. So go for it. That is what I would say. I love that. My final question and perhaps the most important question is what's your favourite KitKat product? You're from New Zealand, right? Yes. You may have heard of a brand called Milo. I have. Yeah. So we did a mashup of KitKat Milo. Milo is here in the UK as well. Yeah. Yeah. So it's expanding. It's a great brand by the way. Milo is a fantastic brand that KitKat. Yeah, I love that one. So we did a mashup of essentially Milo product inside the KitKat and that's just outstanding for me. Yeah, for me, it's a chunky. I just like the half and past the KitKat chunky. Yeah, and that bite and whatever innovation they have in terms of flavour is it hazelnut or caramel or bisque, I always go for whatever it's latest on chunky. Solid choice. Solid choice. Thank you so much for being here on the whole podcast. Thank you. If you're listening to this podcast, you'll know that Walk is the home of leading effectiveness thinking. And now we're teaching you everything you need to know about the fundamentals of strategy. Walk strategy fundamentals is our new digital course for junior or entry-level strategists. You'll learn from award-winning case studies and here directly from top strategists and Walk's own experts giving you the latest industry insights alongside proven practical frameworks. Shopping up your skills to excel in 2026 with Walk Strategy Fundamentals. Available now at walk.com/learning. Scammers are a real problem these days. Last year, phone fraudsters targeted 70% of the British public and stole billions of pounds from unsuspecting consumers. Telco O2 knew that it had to help protect its customers from these scammers and the resulting campaign unleashed an AI-powered scam beta that sounded exactly like an innocent granny. Daisy wasted each scammer's time for up to 40 minutes when they might otherwise have been scamming real customers. With this campaign, O2 significantly boosted its reputation by solving an issue that mattered most to its consumers in a creative and attention-grabbing way. It also won multiple industry awards, including a gold at Can Lions in 2025. David Masterman, Executive Creative Director at BCCP, and Simon Valkarral, Marketing Director O2, joined us fresh from the stage to share more. David and Simon, welcome to the Walk Podcast. Very pleased to be here, aren't you? Simon, I want to start with you. What was the objective for this campaign? What were you trying to achieve and what was the business challenge you need to solve? So fraud is a massive problem in the UK, seven out of ten people in the UK have been affected by fraud. It's a massive problem for the country, but it's also a massive problem for our business. And just to give you a scale, an idea of the scale, last year we stopped over 168 million fraudulent texts from hitting our customers phones. We stopped £250 million worth of fraudulent transactions going through, but it still costs our business millions every single year. So the objective for us was to increase awareness of that consumer behaviour to change, because ultimately all the things that we have in our network are brilliant, and they stopped fraud going through, but ultimately the first line of defence is our customers knowing exactly what to do if they do get a fraudulent call from a scammer and what measures to take. That's really sound because we've all been there, right? We've all had the scammer calling us up and regardless. Everybody knows, everyone has either been scammed or knows someone who has been scammed. And it makes you feel stupid, vulnerable, silly that you've got sucked in, but the reality is it affects everybody from all walks of life. Yeah, so tell me a little bit about how the idea for the scammer Granny came together and how did she tick the boxes for those objectives? I think the big turnaround, when we'd obviously be talking about the problem for a while, and it was the kind of the breakthrough, and we're having lunch, Ben and Morton, very clever guys, and Morton had made this observation of we don't actually have to solve this problem, we just need to waste the scammer's time. And that's like a massive, as soon as you go, well actually, if we're just, if they're talking to us, they can't be scamming anyone else, and from there, you actually very quickly get from, well, what's the way? How could we maximize the amount of time wasted? We'd been playing a lot with AI and what AI can do, you start going, right, okay, we just need a character that will keep the scammers on the line for as long as possible. And boy did she. Yeah, she did, and we watched, you know, and it was kind of from there, there's a simple stepping stone that gets you to, okay, granny, like a granny is right up there in terms of the people who are most susceptible, you're sort of praying on the scammers conceptions already, you're using that, but that gives you permission to stay on the line for a while, she can dither a bit, she can ponder, she can, you know, get distracted, all of these things work. And yeah, from the first calls that took five minutes to ten minutes to fifteen minutes to suddenly, she's keeping them on the line for 40 minutes and we're wopping and we're going, my word, I can't believe it. Yeah, 40 minutes. Yeah, I think we've got, I think the longest we've got, I think the longest we've got was something like 50, 53 or 54. That's a really good sister. That's a long time. I think about talking on the phone for that long. And these guys, you know, and it's largely guys to be honest, but the scammers, the scammers are going to, if they smell a rat, if they, if they, if they don't think there's money to be made on this call, they'll hang up, they'd drop it like a stone. So you really, really, you know, once she started doing her thing and it started to work, you could, you know, that's the proof is the fact that they're still on the line, that's that they're getting angry, they're getting frustrated, they're going, oh, come on, www. Yes, tell me again, it's just, she played them, she absolutely scammed the scammers. And it's quite a curious thing when you're listening in because it's a little bit, it's a bit like taking your kids somewhere, push and you don't say the wrong thing, say the right thing. You're listening because we don't know what she's going to say next. We genuinely don't know what she's going to say. She's trained. We, you know, we, we know what she, we'll, we hope she'll say next. But then, you know, she comes up with gold and she starts talking about this and that and the other and cricket and you go, yeah, this is, this is really good. This is distracting this, you know, it's distracting the scammers. It's keeping them on the line. Yeah, love that. One of the things I loved hearing about this campaign is because the creative process sounds so entertaining. Tell me about creating Daisy's backstory because as you mentioned, she had so much detail. I mean, she had her favourite baking recipes, the name of her cat. And did you get your staff to bring in their grannies to the office group? Tell us more. So, so we knew again, to that same point, scammers would smell a rat if she wasn't authentic. So we'd chosen that she lived in Marmsbury. We gave her her sadly dear departed husband Norman. And then we started building on that and said, right, okay, I think it was Ben's granny really like lemon meringue pie. So we said, right, okay, she's a big fan of lemon meringue pie and baking in general. And we started building up these characteristics. And then in terms of her voice, we actually, we did send the all agency round, which was bringing granny into work day. But it was, I think we ended up settling on Sarah in HR's granny, helped us out and we went down and we just recorded kind of slightly random phrases from her and then built the character from there again, just to make her well rounded and convincing, I suppose. And the interesting thing you mentioned her cat, her cat fluffy, the amazing thing about her cat fluffy is we never ever made her up. She made up her own cat. So the first we heard of her cat fluffy was when we were listening into a scamming call. And she said, oh, hang on my cat, my cat, my cat fluffy. And it's like she, you know, the way she is set up, she knows, right, okay, well, I like baking and I like this and I like that. And all of these details. And it sort of looked and said, well, people who do these things have cats and a plausible name for a cat is fluffy. So yeah, that was a little bit of a mind blowing moment. Well, it's interesting. She made that up because my N N's cat was named Fluffy. I mean, most N N's cats, most N N's cats are called fluffy. Clearly, that's how the AI works. Yeah, really interesting. So how did you go about training the AI with all of these different characteristics? There was training, training, it was sort of training good habits in and training bad habits out and distractions. So all of the data that kind of builds her personality. And again, without getting too much into the techie part of it, it's just feeding in these little details and all of them, all of them are important. Again, her dear departed husband Norman loved cricket and that gave us a whole load of a whole load of good stuff to dip into. And you just start feeding the details in and when you get any rogue bits, you kind of wire them out and that's all good. And then I think the other big thing, we started to get into scambating and we looked into scambating and how it works and we learned about some of the details of breadcrumbing, which and the idea that you want to get, you have to get her phone number onto the lists that scammers use. She has to look like easy prey. So we spoke to Jim who's an expert scambator and he was able to coach us and teach us some of these little details so that her number and actually she ended up having about 15 numbers at the end of it, so that her numbers started to appear and then start to be again easy prey. Interesting. How did you sell this idea on the client side? Because it's amazing, but also like a very high risk high reward, right? So we basically share a lot of our problems with VCP or problems, personal and yeah. And for all that, I'd always been one of the ones which we just could never really crack because the problem has been around for years and years and years and years and we've never really cracked it. And so when Alex Downman in the team gave me a call, he said, I think we've got an idea, can I just quickly show it to you? We've done a little bit of proof concept. And as soon as I heard Daisy talk, some of the videos they taken, I was like all in and then I was like, right, well, this only works if it all works. So PR, our comms team, massive prompt for them day in day out talking to journalists about it, it's a really, really big issue for them on their agenda. So I rang live in PR and she was like, yeah, that is, yeah, if you've got an idea, we'd be open for it. And then to be honest, because we didn't know when it was going to be ready to be unleashed on the public, we just kept on giving the teams time and money to experiment, get it better, get it better. And then at some point, we were like, right, actually November is a pretty good time in terms of the news agenda to do it. And we actually didn't tell too many people about it, if I'm honest with you, because you never quite know which one of that these ideas are going to catch. Some of them go and that's great. Others, you know, they work a little bit, but they, you know, they don't fly. And so it was a bit of a moment when it actually land on the day and people from around the business were calling, I didn't know we were doing this, why we, why have you not spoken to this one? And it was just this big swirling. We'd run it for about three months, sort of in secret. And again, the calls were getting progressively longer. She was getting better and better. And again, going back to that voice, the origin, the voices that were available at the time kind of off the shelf voices just weren't convincing. And this human voice was working. And you talk about, you know, building a plane as you fly every couple of weeks, there would be some new version of whichever piece of tech would be unveiled and we go, oh, hang on, suddenly we can do this bit better than we could two weeks before it was continuously changing. So in those three or four months, whilst it was live secretly, she was just getting better and better. And then by the time we did reveal it, and we'd, you know, we'd got Amy from Love Island, as a little bit of just tried to try and get onto the ITV surface to try and be scared. Because she, you know, liked you saying earlier about everyone's been scammed, she'd been scammed, she was really angry about it. And that helped us just get that right, okay, ITV surface basic coverage. But then it just took off like we wouldn't believe that, you know, the response was better than we could have dreamt. Amazing. So what did you learn from this work that you can apply to future campaigns? Both internally and perhaps for other clients around Insights or tech-driven craft. I think the first one is just the power of humanity. So clearly we're dealing with AI here, but all of the things that have made daisier success are her human details. So her dear departed husband Norman, the fact, you know, all of these little baking details, they're the details that have resonated with people, they're the things that have made a difference. AI doesn't have to be cold and technical, it can be human. I think the second one is you've got to leave space for experimentation, because good ideas, when they are nurtured and built upon and got better and better, the power of a good idea is only as good as this execution. So we could have had this idea six, seven months ago and executed then it just wouldn't have been as good. And so it kind of reminded me where possible to try and give it much time to the teams to really, especially on something that's a little bit, you know, innovative and outside the usual brief, to just keep on working and keep on working until it is ready for the public. Yeah, love that. The third point I think is AI can be a force for creative good. I think we're often all of us are involved in conversations where AI conjures skepticism and visions of existential threat. 58% of UK adults say AI makes them nervous. And then 29% are worried that an advanced AI creation might try to destroy civilization, but the reality is that an AI granny named Daisy won the hearts and headlines just by using AI for good. Yeah, I love it. It's a really cool campaign. Congratulations on all of it success. And thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you. The golden age of connection is starting to show some rust. Loneliness is described as an epidemic and social media while it no longer feels that social. Individualism may be dominating the cultural mood music, but some brands are already reading the room and playing to add deeply rooted desire for belonging. It's time for brands to rediscover the ROI of IRL, pivot to community building and understand why brands that prioritise we, over me, are valued in the billions. Katrina Sturt and Dodd, trends editor at contagious, joins me from the stage to discuss this now. Katrina, welcome to the What Podcast. Oh, thank you very much. I want to ask you a little bit about your three pillar framework that you presented on stage. Can you walk us through the three steps? The first one is from me to way. What does that mean? Yeah, so I guess calling it a framework feels a little bit grand. The three sections that I spoke about basically began with brands that are moving the narrative from me to we. So I think what we can see in society around us right now is that as the world has industrialised, it's become much less community orientated and that manifests itself in all kinds of ways. We're quite a meritocratic individualistic society now. And while that seems a little bit like progress, it actually translates into an awful lot of pressure on people as well because, well, if we're succeeding, it's great, but if we're not succeeding, then it's kind of all our own fault, if you believe in a kind of meritocratic system. And so the brands that are shifting the narrative from me to we are the ones that are showing people in all kinds of interesting ways that they are not on their own. There is a support system around them and there's people who understand and can empathise with the position that they're in. Yeah, really interesting stuff. So the second pillar that you mentioned was about cultivating community. Can you describe what there is and give us an example of a brand you think is doing a really good job of that? Yeah, so cultivating community really refers to the brands who are going a little bit further than just kind of making themselves popular in the world. These are the ones that are taking that popularity and converting it into a sort of a gathering of like-minded individuals who have the same kind of values as the brand and who really identify quite strongly with the way they show up in the world. One of my favourite examples right now of a brand doing that incredibly effectively is the soda brand poppy. This is an American startup. They're only about four years old and they went from a shark tank success to being acquired by PepsiCo this year for $1.9 billion and a lot of that valuation reflects the fact that they really focus and put a lot of energy into developing and nurturing the community of supporters that they have out in the world. It's fascinating to watch how they're doing that. They're very good at making the most of the kind of over signals of belonging. So for example, they focus a lot on merchandise. The brand itself is incredibly sort of lifestyle orientated and very bright. It stands out on mile on Instagram and TikTok and so what they're able to do with their with their merch strategy is, you know, pass out artifacts to their constituency of fans. So things like flavour-matched sweatsuits that they gave out to selected influencers. They became so insanely popular and coveted by the wider fan community that it led to a collaboration with the target brand and they made the sweatsuits more available to the wider group of fans who would pay money to buy those things. And the thing about that is that all those bits of merchandise, all the sweatsuits, all the caps and bags and socks, those are all markers of belonging to this kind of poppy family. And those markers of belonging, they don't just evaporate when you stop scrolling your social media. They exist out in the world for a long time. I think their brand-lead says that there's stuff from two years ago that is still bringing a lot of awareness to poppy. And I think her line was merch, lives forever. Those are words to live by everybody. I sure does. I sure does live forever. I love that idea. And of course, poppy is like such a zeitgeisty brand, aimed at a younger audience. And that's really attractive to companies like Pepsi, who are looking for drinks brand that is really starting to innovate, not just in the product, but also in its marketing strategy. Absolutely right. Yeah. And it's such an interesting kind of category extension for PepsiCo. It's a much healthier beverage. But what's interesting about poppy is that they're not kind of leaning into the healthiness so much as they're leaning into the lifestyle cues. And that's, it's just widening their relevance to a young, excitable, merch-driven, color-driven, looks-driven audience. Yeah. Love that. Okay. So the third pillar is modern communion, which is a turn of phrase that I just love. Tell us a little bit more about that and which brands catching your eye. Sure. I guess this idea of modern communion is a reflection of the fact that as a society, what we're not doing so much anymore is building these shared social spaces. So in the past, you know, every community would have its library and its church and its local pub. But what we're seeing is that these shared social spaces are actually disappearing. It's becoming more and more expensive and difficult to maintain them. And that leaves a bit of an absence, a gap in society in general. What I've found really interesting is the ways in which brands are stepping into that gap in interesting and kind of unexpected ways. My favorite recent example of that is a collaboration between the streetwear brand Palace and their new pals at Nike. So it's a sort of coming together of a small upstart brand and a much bigger kind of global concern. And what they've done is to launch this brilliant space called a 13-manor place. So it's in South London, which is where the palace brand kind of, the founders grew up in that neighborhood. And the space itself is dedicated to indoor football, to skating, and to creatives. The space is completely free for anyone to go and use. And it's just this brilliant sort of capital investment, I think, in belonging. You know, we see a lot of the time brands making very big investments in their flagship stores. And we call them brand cathedrals. But this is very much not a kind of temple to products. This is a way of saying to people, not your money matters, but you matter. And we're there to give something back to the community and to the people who sustain our brand and give us something in return. So I find that really encouraging. But I think what's also interesting is that we're also seeing brands that don't necessarily have an obvious third place kind of location for gathering people. Also develop their kind of engagement activities in ways that bring people together. So my favorite example of that is the card game Uno. So instead of being just a family activity that people play at home, they've started launching these Uno social club nights across the United States. So they're taking it out of a domestic context and putting it in a social more kind of night clubby, nightlife environment and getting people to join in the game in that context. And I just think it kind of widens the aperture. It increases the canvas that's available to the brand. Those guys at Mattel, they're learning from the Barbie movie and the success they saw with kind of bringing people together in real life alongside that. And I feel like we're only going to see more of that stuff happening for more kinds of friends. Well, absolutely. I haven't seen Uno in any night clubs near me. But hey, you know, maybe one day now, you can always dream. Yes, please bring that one to London. No, that sounds really fantastic. And I can't wait to dig more into those examples. Really interesting brands. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You're a completely welcome. Thank you. That's all we have time for on the walk podcast today. But be sure to check out part two of this series on Thursday for more insights into some of the most influential creative ideas in advertising. If you haven't already, be sure to tap follow or even give us a ranking. It is the festive season after all. Thanks for listening.