More Happier: Do Holidays Leave You Exhausted, Not Restored? Priya Parker, Francis Lam & Kate Bowler on Celebration

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Visit www.sleepsleep.me/gretchen and see why cold sleep is your ultimate ally in performance and recovery. [Music] Hello, we're here for more happier a podcast where we get happier. Today's episode is the next in our Round Table Conversation Series and the topic is Intentional Celebration. How we can design our celebrations to reflect our values and deepen our connections. Instead of just feeling overwhelmed by tasks and to-do lists and obligations. I'm Gretchen Ruben, a Reddrys Studies Happiness and Human Nature. I'm hosted the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast and the new podcast since you asked. I've also written books like The Happiness Project and Happier at Home, which are very relevant to our discussion today and I am so excited to be talking today with three terrific guests. First, Priya Parker. Priya is a facilitator advisor and the acclaimed author of The Art of Gathering. How we meet and why it matters. She helps people create more meaningful connections and a deeper sense of belonging through the art of gathering digital course and her substack publication group life, which I love this. It aims to make group help as normal as self-help. Hello, Priya. Hi, Gretchen. So great to be here. And we will also be joined by Francis Lamb. Francis is the host of the splendid table from American public media and vice president and editor-in-chief of Clarkson Potter at Penguin Random House. It's a leader in cookbook publishing. He is a former New York Times magazine colonist and top chef master's judge. He's an award-winning writer whose work has appeared in Gourmet, Bon Appetite and Food and Wine. He graduated first at his class from the Culinary Institute of America. Well, well done, Francis. Hello. I forgot that you got that version of my bio, but thank you for having me. I love it first. And then I am so excited as always to be talking to my old friend Kate Boller. Kate Boller is a New York Times bestselling author, the award-winning host of the Everything Happens Podcast and an associate professor at Duke University. She studies how we make sense of success, suffering and change, and her books include "Everything Happens for a Reason, No Curse for Being Human," her most recent, which has have a beautiful, terrible day. And her new book will hit the shelves in just a few months. Joyful, anyway. So hello, Kate. Hello, my friend. I'm so glad to be here. This is so fun. Thank you all. I feel like this is an intentional celebration. It's so fun. So today we're talking about intentional celebration because it does feel like every year it's all too easy to get swept up in a cycle of holidays that can feel more like a relentless endless to do list than a source of joy and connection. So let's talk about how to reclaim this time so we can embrace the holidays as opportunities for connection and meaning. And just to jump right in, I want to open with you, you write about defining the purpose of a gathering. And for holidays like Thanksgiving or New Year's, there's sort of a pre-written script. How would you suggest that we can identify and articulate more personal purposes for these events? How can we redefine them for ourselves? You know, the biggest mistake we make when we gather is we skip defining the purpose and we think it's super obvious. And that is particularly true for gatherings that come with these heavily baked scripts, like Thanksgiving or New Year's. And so the first thing to just pause and ask, which is, what is, first of all, what is a gathering I would want to attend? Host a gathering you actually want to attend. If you are feeling dread, that's data. So start by hosting a gathering you actually want to attend. And the second is people prefer connection over perfection. When you are able to actually, I know connection over perfection. Okay, that is a mug I need to own. I think we can make that happen. So when people think about stressing out about all of the stuff, when you are able to meaningfully connect people, the rest, it lowers the need for everything else to be so perfect. And to start by asking, like, what is it that I am craving? What is it that I would love to have? So I'll give a simple example. There's a Cirque-Solay dancer and choreographer Michelle LaPrie. And he, like many people, would travel a lot for work. And he really wanted to trim his tree, like decorate his tree, but he actually really wanted to just get his people together who hadn't seen in a while. And so he invited them over for a tree trimming. Is that a thing? Tree trimming party to help him dress the tree before Christmas. But the price of entry was he asked them to send two photos over email to moments of happiness from their year. And when people walked in, he had the photos printed out on a table, set out with ornaments and glue and scissors and crafting supplies. And that and so every ornament were his friends moments of happiness around the tree. And so it's amazing. It's amazing. So immediately there was shared context. It's like, oh, I had no idea you sold your house. Wow, you really, you were in that show this year. And then it went to dinner and they already had the shared context where the whole evening just basically became conversations about moments of happiness from the year. And then did they take them home? Well, that's a good question. I think he kept it on his tree. So it continued to be this like shared created project where all of a sudden they're so delighted that for him, right? It's like, what is a community that we actually need each other that we think of one another? But I think what they did take home was a reflection and a memory of a conversation of different people's moments of happiness look different and have a moment to kind of unpeel and unpack while still literally giving him this need of helping their friend dress the tree. Oh, that's so original and creative. That's awesome. And so just a lay performer, I thought you were going to say he like dressed up as a tree and then like perform all these different moments of happiness. But, but even that is amazing. No, really for like the rest of us. Right. I can handle a glue stick for sure. Exactly. Exactly. And so so much of this is like, okay, what is my he didn't start by saying like I should have my tree trim to have anyone over. I don't know if you've seen these photos or these videos on Instagram of baby showers where people are coming over and helping the mother to be clean her home. Oh, no. And like all of them are like sponging the walls and listening and music together and really feel rather than being used of use. Right. I was like, what does it actually mean to help one another? What does it mean to lean into what your life actually and this is so much Kate of your work. Yeah, I was thinking. But this is a simple example of just like, what do I need? And it's not to make your friends. You still want a host. Yeah. But it was just the right amount of weight as a host to be like, okay, this is really cool. And also now I know what to talk about with every day. All these other people's they didn't all know each other. So it gave them away in. Right. That's beautiful. And I love that you can really approach it creatively. You're not locked into these these scripts that we're familiar with. You can really think about imagining it and new and making it work for you and making it more interesting and exciting for other people too. Well, coming up, we are going to talk about food because it's you cannot talk about celebration without talking about food and emotional connections that we feel to food. But first this break. This message comes from Harvard Business School Executive Education. Now is the time to invest in yourself and change the world with your voice. Our programs connect you with faculty at the forefront of their fields, introduce you to a global network of leaders and help you step into your full potential. The next chapter is yours. Let us help you write it. Apply today to accelerate your future. Learn more at hps.me/accelerate. That's hps.me/accelerate. Several always changes what I want to wear. I stop reaching for anything heavy or complicated and just want pieces that feel light, comfortable and easy from the you know the first second I put them on. That's why I keep coming back to quince. There are linen pieces especially have become my default this time of year. I have a linen button. down from quince that, you know, it's one of those pieces that works for everything, for travel, for dinner, for weekends, it feels much more expensive than it is. I love that quince uses high quality materials like European linen and organic cotton, but everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/grutchin for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/grutchin for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/grutchin. I've been trying to say yes more to little adventures. Nothing huge, just getting out of the routine and going somewhere different for the day. But it really makes you appreciate having a car that feels solid and comfortable. Where you're not thinking about the drive, you're just focused on where you're going. That's what stood out to me about the defender. It has that rugged design, but it also feels really thoughtful inside. And I like that there's a full lineup from the two door, 90 to the 110 and the 130 was seating for up to 8. So it really fits different kinds of plans. And it's built with those durable, purposeful materials so you can actually use it without worrying about every little thing. It also has features that make driving feel easier, like clear sight technology and the PIVI Pro system so you can keep track of where you're going and everything you want to listen to along the way. Plus with up to 89 cubic feet of cargo space and available three rows, it gives you a lot of flexibility depending on what you're bringing with you. For the full defender lineup at Land Rover USA dot com. And now we're back. Francis, let me ask you, you're a culinary expert and on a practical level, how can we use food to tell a story or express our values in a way that just goes beyond the delicious meal? Like, oh, it's a wonderful apple pie or whatever. Yeah. I think about this a lot because in my work, I do talk a lot about preparation and technique and seasoning and all those things. All the things that make the physical deliciousness of food, we can call it, like the things that like make your taste buds and your old factory senses go ping, ping, ping. The reality is the emotional connection to food is there are different special ingredients for that. I think those ingredients tend to be remembrance, nostalgia, maybe repeated action. If we think about how do we make a meal into a ritual? Like how do we elevate a meal, which you have hopefully every day, hopefully multiple times a day, right? But how do we elevate that to the idea of ritual? I think if you think about those ingredients of remembrance, nostalgia and repeated action, like that so we can help create ritual. So remembrance is like, this is my mother's recipe, nostalgia is like, this is what we ate. I remember putting the marshmallows on the sweet potato when I was little and now I'm still doing it as an adult. Yeah. Do you have some examples of simple food based rituals that help to connect to this sense of meaning? Yeah, totally. I mean, it could be something that you've done for generations and a family, right? And then so, and it's a tradition that gets passed on. So, you know, someone takes on the task of preparing that dish or that menu the same way that we remember, you know, grandpa making this. So we remember great aunt, you know, so until making this. So you don't reinvent the cranberry sauce? Well, you tend. I think that's a thing, right? Like nostalgia is about connecting it to the past, but doesn't have to be like a fact similarly of the past. So I think there are ways of doing things the way we used to do them, but you can also evolve them. I mean, the fact of the matter is, you know, your grandmother's prize pumpkin pie recipe probably came off the back of a box. Yeah, that basically probably came from somewhere, right? It wasn't my past down from when you discovered fire. Yeah. But I guess I would say to like, so for us and our family, like, meaning just me, my wife and our child just are the little unit, we started folding dumplings for Chinese New Year. And honestly, like I grew up in a Chinese American home, but that's not a thing we really did. Like we didn't fold dumplings ourselves. Like that wasn't a thing that we did, but we do it in our family now. And part of it is because my wife, so my wife actually is not Chinese, but she wanted to make sure that when we were early on, when we were buying children's books, she's like, "Hey, I want to make sure that our kid has books to sort of speak to stories of Chinese culture and her family's Portuguese." And so we wanted to make sure our child had both of those influences in her life. And you know, in a lot of those stories, they were folding dumplings. So we, that's something we sort of adopted for ourselves. And when we do that year after year, it becomes a ritual, it becomes to feel like a ritual. That idea of repeated action, I think is really important. I also think the act of preparation is so important. And this is kind of what Priya was talking about. I mean, I'm inspired by Priya's work, so I think about her work a lot. But I often think about the difference between cooking for people and cooking at people. So like I have to confess, I can be a performative cook, right? Like especially earlier on, like after I just come home from culinary school, I was, there was a lot of like, check this out, look what I can do. And I think people like today, I think there's a lot of performative cooking. I'm not performative in a way that means it's sincere. But meaning you're thinking of it as a performance and you need it to go perfectly. And you want to hit all your marks and you want to do all this and you want to get the, you know, da da da da da. And it's amazing when you can achieve that. But that's for you. Right? That's really for you. And that's for the recognition of, oh my god, I wanted to, you know, so and so it was house for dinner one night. It was like a chef was in the kitchen. It was amazing. It was eight course tasting menu. Like that's amazing. But that's for you. I guess we'll love it. Sure. But what are ways to actually bring a guest into that experience that isn't like at cooking at them, but cooking for them? And one way I think of that is you can go with them and bring them into the preparation. Can you bring them into, I think, a Priya, a lot when, when she interviewed her on our show a while ago and she said, you know, the gathering begins at the invitation. Yes. Because you're helping people to get into a mindset of what this thing is going to be. And there are ways, especially for holiday type celebrations and meals to involve people in the preparation, whether, hey, come over, come cook this thing with me or bring this because that will be an important part of our evening. Not just, oh, I don't know, bring, bring some of the drink. You know, and that's great too. You don't want people to feel pressure. And if it's like a family gathering or like a repeated gathering, a holiday gathering, I think want to feel like they're really contributing. So it isn't an afterthought of like, I would just bring a dessert or, you know, whatever. You know, you don't want people to be able to approach it, but you want people to feel like, no, I'm actually contributing something special and meaningful. I'm a huge fan of Children's Literature and Young Adult Literature. And I've actually started a couple of reading groups where we read Children's Literature and Young Adult Literature. This is like a taste that some people have like detective stories or science fiction. And every year I have a holiday party and I say, if it is fun for you and you would like to do it, you're invited to bring a dessert with the theme of something Children's Literature or a Young Adult Literature. So you could bring holes, which is from the book holes and so if somebody brings dona holes or they make golden snitches or somebody made a secret garden cake. And for some people, this is just tremendously fun. And they love having the assignment and then everybody ooze in aahs and like, take some home. And it's only for the people who find that fun and yet it really adds to the sense of festivity because other people have contributed. And yet it's a low lift, like no pressure on anybody if that's not their thing. Somebody made homemade raspberry cordial. It's fired by anagreengables and I'm like, okay, you're not coming to my house for homemade raspberry cordial. But it was a really fun way for people to contribute. And it also takes the pressure off the host. Yes. And so the moment is like all of a sudden everyone's so proud to show their dish. And so all of a sudden you're distributing the love and the care. And it's actually much less anxiety producing for the host. It's like the best way to actually lower your anxiety is to have subhosts. And I love that you say if it's fun for you because it also then people like it becomes a little competitive. It's like asking people they're like birth star. And it's like, oh, this is fun for me or like I would never want to touch that. Which allows also for some freeze on in comparison, which is great. Yeah. I do a version of this with gingerbread houses. Ooh. I just was always looking for, well, to be honest, I spent all my 20 studying mega churches. And so I was in some really weird, unusual, enormous buildings. And then I started finding enormous buildings both fascinating and like, why is there an aquarium in the middle of this sanctuary and why is there a shark in there? I was like, you know what would be great when it comes time to like a holiday. It's just doing something kind of ridiculous. So I started making these enormous gingerbread like mega churches at first. And then I'd have parties where people could come over and like just decorate your like make your, like it was starting with like make your house of worship. And it was always so random. And I just had enormous candies and and then like a little bit of like Lego scaffolding in case people felt like they couldn't like hold up a wall. But I've made some amazing things and I've seen some amazing things. And also it gives people something to do with strangers in the middle of a, yeah, it was really fun. That's so great. But you know, Kate, let's switch gears for a second. A lot of times with holidays, there's this expectation that this is joyful and good vibes only, but life is more complicated. How do you think? Do you suggest that people navigate it if they need to make space for grief or loss or imperfection? It's a time when we're expected to be happy. Also, one of the things about holidays is that people's absences or changes are, there's kind of a spotlight on that change. That can make it particularly difficult. What do you suggest that people think about? Well, I do think there is such an intense cultural script that celebrations, especially in America, coincides with the American story of infinite happiness. Everybody should always be achieving, either if not, bliss, some kind of emotional positive steady state at all times or else they're a failure in some way. I think this toxic positivity has a way of infiltrating, usually also connects with a form of perfectionism that's marketed toward women, where everything has to be. It has to be Instagram worthy. Pretty and good and perfect and everyone's expectations has to be met. That's difficult because that kind of both perfectionism or positivity doesn't allow for mixed state emotion. I think it might be a nice time to just allow there to be a little bit more cracks in the seams here and let other kinds of emotions be, frankly, as important. I get back to something, Prio, and you said, what's the purpose of this? Maybe one of the things that people could name is this "soliday," I just want a minute to feel sad that my dad's gone. I get beautiful mail about this. I caught one the other day that was a family that was celebrating the holidays for the first time and they had a great time, but they realized that they just couldn't quite find a place to grieve the fact that they just lost the dad of the family. They went outside in the backyard and they lit a fire. And for some reason, someone just pulled out a card that was the worst bereavement card that they'd gotten that just said every insensitive thing. God needed an angel. And then they laughed and someone threw it in the fire. And everyone else just started writing down or saying out loud every stupid horrible thing that someone had said to them that year. And they just said, it's not where I saw you going, but that's the way it came with the fire under the stars. No, it was like the thorns that they laughed at. I like that what people give themselves sometimes is if there's a script, just let yourself know, okay, right now I'm following a script, but there might need to be a moment where I need to go off script and that might end up being the most beautiful thing that happens. And then they roasted marshmallows in that fire. Exactly. And the scorn of our enemies. And can you think of any other examples? Like is it a moment of silence around a table or are there other suggestions? And maybe people are wanting to bring this to a family gathering and they're not sure how to broach it. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes saying like, can we do this specific thing is easier? I totally agree. And I do think food is such a lovely way, especially that feels like a, like some kind of memory or memorial. We're like, Graham is bun recipe, that kind of thing. But I do think to, it's okay to add a little twist, especially if something feels too sweet that it starts to feel painful. So for instance, I know this family where they lost their son and they just weren't sure what to do with his stalking. And they just decided, well, what if I just put it up, what if just, so the year right after he died, they all just wrote little notes and put it in the stalking and they didn't read them because they weren't ready. But they just decided it was like a little moment of hope that maybe next year they could write another note and maybe next year they'd be ready to take something out and read it back as a story about a love that goes on and on. I have one of those weeks where the to-do list just kept growing, little repairs, things to mount random projects I kept putting off. And eventually it all starts taking up mental space even when you're not doing it. And that's why I've been using TaskGrabbit. You can book a skilled Tasker for furniture assembly, home repairs, mounting, yard work, whatever you need help with. And you can search based on reviews, availability, and costs so you feel good about who's showing up. I finally handed off a project I had been avoiding and let me tell you it was such a relief just to have it done. I use TaskRabbit and you should too. When life happens, your to-do list grows. 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Maybe let's just look at it again for a second time and wonder what could this object mean. Your story is reminding me of another example and it was a way someone was trying to figure out. It was the first Thanksgiving for the Sumanamanda without her grandmother. I think so many families or friends. When you think about it ahead of time and if you want to prepare, it's like, well, what is the right level of touching this but also letting it be? She wasn't sure. So her mother was hosting their extended family and they were still kind of rattled from the loss. An Amanda called ahead of time. It's also thinking about the gathering starts at the invitation but also really thinking about the intentionality is really thinking ahead of time. What would we like to happen? And so she called her mother and she said, you know, what feelings do you want to elicit at dinner? Her mother said comfort and happiness. Amanda then reached out to all of the guests asking them to send a few songs that brought them comfort and happiness, which she then used to make a playlist for the Thanksgiving dinner. And it was this subtle and gentle form of invitation at a tender moment. But then what happened is throughout the evening when the guests would hear the song and be like, that's my song. Is it like, that's my, that's my cordial. And then and then shared why they chose the tracks they did and they talked about the concerts they attended and sang along with songs they had in common with her grandmother. So it was kind of this like back way in and she later said it was like just the right level of summoning that they needed that allowed them to have the shared soundtrack that they all contributed to that was touching on what at least the mother was saying she wanted to experience in that tender moment. Well, and that's making me realize like we're really talking about the five senses. It's taste, it's touch, it's hearing, it's smelling, it's seeing, of course, like the more that we can feel it in our bodies. So here's a question for all of you, something that people talk about all the time is that sometimes the holidays leave us feeling exhausted instead of restored. What is one common societal pressure or expectation around celebrations holiday or any kind of celebration that you would like to see disappear forever? And why? If you could just strike it out, what would it be? But all the food has to be hot. Oh, same more phrases. This is like what I was never wanting. This is, this is, yeah, okay, tell us. I'm staying in my lane, but I would say this. I think one of the things I do see people when they're hosting, when they're preparing the food or whatever, it's really hard to get a lot of food on the table hot at the same time. It is. And so maybe don't have to. Mash potatoes do have to be hot. I will see that. Okay. But if there's only one thing out maybe just the mash potatoes. The turkey, you know, it can be warm. The roasts can be warm. Make a lot of, you know, when you're preparing a menu, think of lots of things that people love to eat, room temperature, or even chilled. You can pre-make them, you can bring them out, you can bust them out of the fridge an hour before people show up. And you don't have to be fussing and stressing. about getting nine hot things on the table at the same time. So it's a little bit specific and practical, but I want to spread the good word of a beautiful salad and a platter of roasted vegetables is a beautiful side. - Excellent, I love that. - I love that. Okay, any other candidates. I have strong feelings about big moments being too big. I mean, really, historically, Christmas, for example, wasn't supposed to just be Christmas. It really was supposed to be 12 days of Christmas, not to make a living nightmare for every human woman, but in order to spread out the kinds of things you actually want at Christmas. Like, you do want a nice food moment with your immediate family, but actually, there's a great time to go to your neighbors and have a low key thing. And actually, there's a nice moment of volunteerism where it's actually the time to think about those less fortunate. And I think that having the idea that there needs to be one enormous thing can be kind of overwhelming. So I do love it when people do things even just in the not holiday holidays, is just something like a, this is a big deal to me party. Like, oh my gosh, you finally broke up with that boyfriend. - Oh, congratulations. You started menopause, drinks. You came off alone, cake. I think it's a great thing to just let smaller moments be bigger and bigger moments be smaller. - So here's my suggestion, 'cause my next book is about the empty nest is a forest reckoning of adulthood. I'm gonna try to convince the world, like a lot of people take a trip right after they drop or freshman off at college to be a buffer. I want to call this the freshman. There's the baby moon, there's the honeymoon and this is the freshman. It's a fresh start for you as you drop off your freshman. What do you think? It's a new celebration. - I love it. - Right, I love it. - Okay. - And so much of modern life is there's these two different things we're holding. So mine would be your gathering doesn't have to look a certain way. - Ooh, okay. - And in modern life, so many of our rituals no longer actually serve our need. So we keep replicating these old forms, but then we feel like we don't have the permission to celebrate what our modern needs are. Right, so like what you're doing, the fresh, what did you call it? Fresh moon, right? The fresh moon, the divorce party, the colonoscopy party. (laughing) - Exactly. - You know that I just put some change in the drink they make you give before that. There you go. - And so so much of this is like both being intentional and paying more attention to what is our actual need? When are we actually feeling tender? What is it that our ancestors didn't actually have to deal with and so there wasn't a ritual? Most people didn't live till 90, you know? Whatever it might be. Divorce wasn't allowed in those mega churches, you know whatever it is, that is like when we have transitions, right? Gatherings are basically about marking transitions. And the best gatherings also transform us. They take us from a state and they take us to a state. So in Francis and his wife are making dumplings, folding dumplings with their child, at some level like they're folding dumplings, but they're also taking that child and the family from a state of the three of them, to a state in which Chineseness is also part of their formation. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. And one of the things I love about Kate, your idea of the gingerbread houses, is like, your scholarly research and experience was coming in. Like it's like, I'm sure it was fascinating to people to be like, oh, why are we doing this? - Holy, why is that? - Yeah, it's like you're bringing in all these parts and sharing them with people in this really imaginative way. So I think it's right, we can recreate these things according to what a life looks like now, rather than these very traditional kind of, you know, a Christmas Carol vision of what a holiday looks like. So coming up, we are going to talk about very simple try this at home suggestions about how to transform the holidays, but in a way, it's manageable, but first, the spray. (upbeat music) Okay, we're back. So this is the question of if you could suggest a concrete manageable thing that the ordinary person could do in the ordinary year to make their holidays brighter and easier or more meaningful, how to make their celebrations more intentional. What would you suggest? - I have a fill, I can go first, I have a philosophical one and a practical one. The philosophical one is pause and ask, what is the purpose of this year? What is my need? What is our family or our communities need this year? And to assume that that question will be different, the answer will be different based on the year. It's like, what you need or want, even as a birthday when you're 27 is different than at 36 is different at 72. So to keep asking the question, because the river changes. So ask that question, but the second this is super practical is bring a tub, a tiny tub of sparkle with you. - What? - And this is like my number one guesting tip. I wish I had it with me right now, but I have this little tub of sparkles. And it's like a little, it's like, you are a good, good, good, good, good, good. - Yeah, yeah. - But Priya, you know, this stuff gets into your life in a way that can't be. - No, no, it's very good quality. No, no, no, no, it's very good quality. - Gretchen is like, this is a health problem. - It's like this tiny, tiny little, it's a tiny little tub and I'll maybe put a little bit, a little wink on my, you know, eyebrow or like eyes on the side of them. And people will always say, oh my gosh, I love your sparkle. - Oh. - I'll say, thanks so much. Do you want some? - Oh. - And 99 of 10 times they say, yes. - Okay. - And basically sparkle the entire group over time and they've become something together. - Now see, I was envisioning like a container of sparkles that you were like throwing into the air like, - No, no, no, no. - That would be in someone's rug for the next 10 years. Oh, this is sort of like-- - Thank you for the fact, Chad. - This is face glitter, a kind of face. - Tiny little tub of face glitter. And I, I will even take it to like restaurants or as I'm just put a little dab on and a host system or a host may say, oh my gosh, I love your glitter. And I will say to them, thanks so much and I pull it out and like, do you want some? And they're like, and it's just like it's elevated the night a little bit. It's like a tiny little mask. 'Cause a tiny little wink. And it just shifts people into this vibrant mood. - It's a little bit of whimsy. - It is. - That is a wonderful suggestion. Okay, Francis, Kate, how about you? Do you have a suggestion? - Sometimes kind of-- - No, no, Francis go. Mine's a bomber. - Oh, no, Kate. - No, tell us, say yours, Kate. I think it serves us well if we decide if we are a restaurant family. I define a restaurant family as a family where the whole family can have the entire meal and no one has to go sit in the car because of a conflict that was had while someone else pays the bill. Are you a restaurant family? I do not come from a restaurant family. I come from a family of highly intelligent, wonderful, emotionally amazing people who, when combined, can't usually make it through the meal. And sometimes we play the game, who's crying? Oh, wait, is it me? And that happens so often for completely lovely well-meaning people that it might be worth just saying, are we a restaurant family? If we're a family where there's gonna be no drama, then great, like, have the million meals all, like, courses all in a row and make sure that there's like a heavy ritual that goes with it. But if you're not, maybe a buffet, maybe, like, take it down a notch. I made a rule because I can't do Thanksgiving in the normal way this year. I just can't. Last time, people got upset. There was just too, it felt too, like, frayed it. I tried really hard. I wouldn't say that I felt like all the effort in making everything the way everyone wanted, actually paid off. And I just decided this year, pizza. It's gonna be really nice pizza. It's gonna be pizza everyone likes. But, like, we're not gonna, we're not gonna, like, take a restaurant family and force them to do something they maybe not be capable of doing. So it's sort of, like, face the reality of your people. Yeah. And so, and then I will love them as much as the moment when I walked in the, to the very beginning of that experience. Oh, that's a crit. Or ask yourself, are we a restaurant family? I love that. Okay, Frances. Well, I'd just say mine is a little bit the opposite of Kate's. In the sense that, well, the opposite of a profound truth is also true. So, yeah. (laughing) Dry cherry. You really consider dry cherry ice cold. People don't expect it. It's delicious with food. I don't even drink. I love it. I don't think so. But the other thing I would say is, Wait, wait, wait, what dry cherry? So just for those of us who are not very sophisticated, Sherry is a kind of, Sherry is a kind of fortified wine from Spain. And it comes in many different varieties from dry to like cream or sweet. But the dry cherry, if you don't have a good sort of vibe around Sherry, maybe because you think of it as like a drink from an older generation, some of the Hattano's very sweet and syrupy. But the dry cherry can be very cold and it's delightful. Wonderful. And actually like this stuff in between, called the Oloroso, but it's kind of yellowy. It's kind of like funky tasting. I love it. I don't even drink, but I just love the taste of it. But the other thing I was going to say is, thinking about Priya's question of ask yourself what's the purpose of this this year? Sure. And this is a year where I have felt very profoundly, like all you have in this world is each other. I've been thinking about that a lot. I've been feeling that a lot. I've been wanting to gather with people more, spending more time with people. And this thing again, I think if you're going to have people over, have them be a part of the preparation, have them be a part of it. Have them. And cooking with people does not come naturally for everyone. I was a terrible cook with people person. That was-- very controlling, everything had to be just so. Like if you stood in the way between me and the stove and the sink, when I need to get the pasta out of the water, I get really agitated. - Watch out. - Yeah, you know, and I just had to like, grow up. Part of what to me, I was like, grow up, dude. But the reality is like, it's a learned skill, but practice that skill. - Is there food you'd suggest that lends itself to that? A dish? - Oh, I don't know. Well, that's a great question. I would think anything that is very time sensitive, like has to happen in a precise window, I would probably not try to do with people, but get people over and make a beautiful stew, make a beautiful braise, I can go in the oven for several hours. So you can ask, hey, will you peel the onions? Will you top the carrots? Will you do this? Can we, hey, can someone make a drink for us? You know, think of a dish that has multiple steps and components and set people on one of the steps. And I think there is something to that sense of contribution that is extremely satisfying to people. In addition to, oh, we can all just kind of hang out and gossip or catch each other up on our lives or so and so forth. - I have a children's book for you. This is gonna tie together our whole conversation. Stone soup. - I was gonna say, Stone soup. - Oh, that's a wonderful. Well, and it's a story with a twist, which we will not give away the twist ending, but for anyone who does not know the famous story of stone soup, that is a wonderful, that's a wonderful story. And thank you, Priya, talk about like bringing all the strands of this conversation together. That is wonderful. And I think the bottom line is, do it. However it works for you, just bring people together and just relationships are so important to our happiness and we can make these moments work for us. Whatever that looks like. (upbeat music) And that is it for this front table discussion of intentional celebration. Thank you to Priya Parker, Francis Lamb and Kate Boller. - I wanna thank you guys. - Thanks everyone. - Thank you for having us. And as we close, listening to all of this advice, the thing I would most say is just, host a gathering you want to attend. - Yes. - And if you're like, we, we, I wish I could just do that. You can do that. You can do that. The best gathering started as jokes. The best traditions started someone literally being like, I wish we could just do Whitney Houston drum contest. And then they do it. - Or. - So find your energy. - The Thanksgiving pizza. - Yeah, the tradition starts now. - Thank you. - Thank you for the house. - Oh, what you know. What you know all goes. - And thanks to you to our producer Chuck Reed. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. (upbeat music) [Music]