Morbid Book Club: Victorian Psycho By Virginia Feito

hey weirdos this episode is brought to you by ashley your home should show off who you are as the largest furniture store brand in north america ashley can help you create a comfortable functional and stylish home that you can feel proud of and in a price range that works for you with ashley's lifestyle driven designs you don't have to choose between practical and being stylish visit your local ashley store or head to ashley.com to find your style all right brothers we're gonna get into the actual intro but first big red has something to tell you i do have something to tell you today we have somebody very special on the pod in the pod lab the second pod lab ashkel's pod lab ashkel's welcome to the pod lab it's still a little bit under construction but we're working on it we have whoa thanks mikey that was badass we have paul trembley on the pod today paul is the critically acclaimed new york times best-selling author of head full of ghosts the pallbearers club uh cabin at the end of the world and actually that one had has already been adapted to a film it's knock at the cabin i believe it's called um so go check that out and cat head full of ghosts is going to be adapted to so cool wait for that um his newest release right here dead but dreaming of electric sheep which is an amazing title it's coming out june 30th that's wherever you can find books uh we have actually already recorded with paul and had a fucking fantastic time he was so nice he's phenomenal his books are phenomenal and i urge you to go check them out and we're really excited for you to see our conversation with him before we get into the episode we do just have to thank our sponsor one more time ashley's podcast and we'll see you next time on the pod lab ashkel's pod lab is such an icon i'm not talking about myself i'm talking about this gorgeous furniture that we are sitting on and our feet are upon and our drink are upon we got this is the revion lake sofa that we're sitting on it's comfy it's really comfy it's chic i love the color and it's washable which is nice i got the the love seat over there and then we have the mailey coffee table which i'm actually ordering another one to put in my living room downstairs because i love it so much i'd like to say really quick that the schweppes on there was a mistake a mistake yeah instacart i'm not talking to you right now um and finally these are the core stone tables the end tables what i love about these is that i feel like i'm like a qvc girl yeah i love that you can dress them up like the shelves you can kind of just like put all your accoutrements all your zikor your your trinkets your chocos hara movies your hara movies your awala your game that you crafted with your sister and hunt a killer you can just put anything on the end table so thank you to ashley for sponsoring today's episode and for sending us this really cool furniture because it's sick and without further ado let's get into it yeah hey weirdos i'm ash i'm elena and i'm grady hendrix no wait i'm paul we said paul you can be whoever you want to be today and he chose grady hendrix oh yes this is morbid this is a very special morbid we have an amazing we already introduced him but i'm going to introduce him again yeah this is paul trembley if you don't know him go figure it out because there's a body of work that you need to get into right now he's an amazing writer and you're missing out if you haven't read his books so get to it and also there's several adaptations that have been happening in the past so i'm going to show you a couple of them and i'm going to show you a couple of them and i'm going to show you a couple of them and i'm going to show you a couple of them and i'm going to show you a couple of them and i'm going to show you a couple of them to me. I love that movie. It's really flawless. I love that movie. So good. Now, do you remember the exact moment that you realized that you wanted to write horror? Oh, geez. No. It's a tough one. No, it's hard to explain how I got there. I mean, I'm a lifelong scaredy cat for once. So I've always had like a love terrified relationship with horror. That's how I feel. Yeah. Still, like if I'm alone in the house, I'm not above sleeping with like a desk lamp on. Oh, yeah. Same. Or noise machines and still go up the basement steps too quick just because I'm ridiculous. But I mean, I wasn't even like a huge reader as a kid. Like I was just sort of like a nerdy math person, you know, loves the Celtics. And it wasn't until college where I met my wife, Lisa. She bought me right after I graduated. Two things happened. My last, and I hope this isn't too boring. You can cut it. I had to take an English requirement. I was in a freshman English class, second semester senior year. Oh, damn. It blew my mind. I had like the stereotype experience. And the teacher was a big punk music fan. And I was too. So we connected. But anyway, one of the stories I read in that class was Joyce Carol Oates' Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been? And I remember reading it. And I actually said aloud, I was like, I didn't know people wrote things like this. Oh, I love that. And shortly after that, Lisa bought me The Stand after graduation. And I hailed that. And I went off to grad school for two years and struggled by the skin of my teeth to get a master's degree. That's when I was reading everything Stephen King wrote. And from Dance Macabre, I branched out to like Peter Straub and Clive Barker and Shirley Jackson. And then two years after that, I got my first. teaching job. And I had the weird itch to try writing a story. Inexplicable. Like, why would I try writing a story? I love that, though. That's so cool. That's how I felt, too. When I first started writing, like, my first book, I was like, I don't know how to write a story. Like, I was like, I can't write a whole book. Like, what am I doing? I'll just imagine everybody feels that way when they first write something. I feel like everyone has to feel that way, you know, in the beginning. Being like, I'm not going to get to the end of this. Yeah. This isn't going to be something someone reads. Right. I'm terrible at writing advice, so I don't give it. I don't give it. That's the thing I tell, especially to younger people. It's like, hey, you know, hopefully you come to this realization a lot earlier than I did. But hopefully, you know, you come to the realization that it's okay to like things. It's getting harder and harder to do that with, you know, obviously with just, you know, social media life and everyone hates everything. You know, it's okay to like things. That means it's okay to be passionate about it and maybe want to try it yourself. And, I mean, that's such an important, it has to be your first step. Yes. I'm so glad you said that because I'm constantly trying to tell my kids that. Like, I want to tell you now. When you're young, like, you can be passionately excited about things and not feel weird about it. Like, don't make people feel, like, make you feel like you can't be all in on something. Right. And want to do it or want to experience it or want to learn everything you can about it. Like, I feel like we have got to a place now where, like, especially social media. Everybody wants to be the same. And everything's cringe. Yeah. And it's like, that's so cringey that you're into it. It's like, stop. I hate that. Unless they like Grady Henrik's books. Then we should really stop. Then that's cringe. I love Grady Henrik. Grady? Grady's a friend. I just like making fun of him. Yeah, we love Grady. We had him on and we had the most fun with him. He's great. That was a fun episode. He is so much fun. He's so funny. He was really fun with the Would You Rather. So, you're ready for that. I know. Especially. Yup. And actually, like, this kind of leads into what I wanted to talk about next. So, speaking of, like, a love of writing and getting passionate about things, AI. Yeah. I have to rant with you about it. Sure. Because I think we feel the exact same way about it. Oh, yeah. It's absurd. It's upsetting me so much. Because, like, books like this, like Victorian Psycho, aren't going to happen with AI. And it's making me crazy. Yeah. That it's become a thing. And I feel like you need to go through the whole, like, being inspired to write something, coming up with the idea, like, working through it. At some point, like, reading your own writing and being like, oh, my God, I'm a genius. And then the next day reading it and being like, I'm a hack and I should never do this. Right. And then fighting through that feeling and coming out on the other side. Like, you need to have that full experience. Yeah. And I feel like all of a sudden we're going to get these books that don't have that behind it. And I feel like you need that injected into the book for it to be what it needs to be. No interest in reading it. Yeah. I mean, the whole idea to me is reading something or watching a movie or any other piece of art. What the connection is, oh, this person felt like I did. Yeah. It feels like I do, too. Right. And there will never be any of that. No. You know, with AI. Never mind that they steal our books. Exactly. You know, and I was a part of the first lawsuit suing OpenAI. I was a part of the first lawsuit suing OpenAI on behalf of writers. I love that. For two years. It's myself, other, horror leading the way. Christopher Golden, another horror writer. Nice. Yeah. And Richard Cadre. And also weirdly, well, not weirdly, but like, not horror writer, but Sarah Silverman. We were the first four and spent two years as a part of it. There's so many lawsuits. They consolidated it all to one. Yeah. So then, like, I didn't continue because they also chose different lawyers. It was weird. But, yeah. No, I mean, you know, I'm sorry if it makes people uncomfortable, but, like, you're not a writer or a visual artist. If you're using it, you're a scab. To use, like, we don't have a union, but I'm going to use union terms. Yeah. You're a scab. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's stolen work. Yeah. Yeah. At the end of the day. It just makes me crazy. And there's just no humanity behind it. Like, AI can't come up. I mean, you see, you can always see it in, like, metaphors and stuff that you'll see written by AI. You're like, that doesn't even make sense. Yeah. Because you don't have the capacity as a computer to compare two things. Like, you just don't. Like, it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. I mean, in one way, it's like it's helped crystallize like why I'm still passionate about reading and watching movies and viewing art. But, you know, it's the connection components. It's like, I don't know, why do we have to defend this or explain why that this is important? Exactly. And it makes it so you have a book coming out on June 30th, and it's Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep. I love that title, first of all. It's such a good title. And it has some like AI components in it, like in the story. It's about that. The plot seems so interesting to me. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Yeah, sure. I'm bad at the quick pitch. I'm terrible at it, so don't worry. I think that's like a thing across the board with authors. Now that we have that out of the way, yeah. So, you know, the main conceit is that there's someone who's like my age and built working for, well, not Google because I didn't want to get sued. I think I called them Decilion, a giant tech company in the Silicon Valley. Okay. He's working on campus in the mailroom, and he doesn't drop dead, but he has a massive stroke. Where, you know, he can breathe and his heart's beating, but he's not, you know, there's no consciousness. He's in a vegetative state, so they say. He signed his body directly to over to the company, though, prior to this happening. As one does. As one does. And they implant AI and nanobots into his brain so someone can remote control him like they're playing a video game. That's the craziest thing. So most of that happens off page. The semi-estranged 24-year-old daughter. Of the CFO, who she was an ex-professional gamer, is hired to basically weekend at Bernie's him across the country. Oh, my God. So I'm hopeful. Like, I hope that a big chunk of this book, maybe the first two thirds of her chapters, Julia's chapters, is definitely satire and hopefully very funny. Yeah. Even though it's, you know, ultimately a serious thing. So the book is split between her chapters and chapters are titled You, which is from the point of view of the man with the tech in his head. So he is still conscious. Because of what they've put in his head, he's going through like a phantasmic oracle hellscape. And then the two narratives sort of link up at the end and everyone's happy and hugs. Oh, I love this. I love the dual POV. That's going to be good. I'm really excited about that. Yeah, I love a dual POV. Love it. That's really cool. And to think about just like being unconscious but conscious at the same time, that's wild. That's honestly my worst nightmare. No, definitely very horrific. Yeah, it's very Black Mirror. And the control aspect of it is my. My literal worst nightmare. I am the biggest control freak in the world. The idea of somebody controlling me when I can't. Right. Yeah. No. One of my fears writing the book is even though the premise seems absurd, I was like, man, I got to get this done before it can actually happen. I was going to say before you just went. I was going to say, I was going to say, I was going to say, I was going to say. And one of the. One of the spokespersons said, oh, you know, the wiring is almost taken out of what it would take for them to be conscious. Oh, I hate that. I hate that. You're like speed writing. You get it into your editor, you're like, please hurry. Oh, my God. Oh, I hate that. I want to go back to something that you said earlier, because I related to that so much. I'm such a horror fan, but I'm also such a Freedy cat, and you said the same thing. I wonder, do you have any fears that you've never explored in your writing that you would eventually want to someday? That's a great question. No one's ever asked it in that way. Hey, all right. Look at that. I mean, there's some fears that I won't write about, just because it's too scary for me. And being just a child, teen of the 80s, like nuclear war stuff, really, anything that brushes up against that is too much for me. That's how I feel, too. I don't write about it. Avoid. So I won't watch Oppenheimer. Yep. I'm sure it's a good movie. End of the world stuff for me is like too real. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I use so much of my own life, much of the. The extra grin of my family in my books. You know, it's hard to say what's coming next. And I wish I was someone who had like a bullpen of ideas. And for novels, I just go from novel, and then I'm like, oh, no, what am I going to do now? And then it just comes to you. And just try to start from scratch, and hopefully there's some inspiration, so. Right. That's so interesting. Yeah, like, I don't know. I can't say like, oh, I definitely want to try this or that. It's like, I don't know. Like, maybe. I'm just totally focused on the thing I'm working on. Yeah, that makes sense. Oh, that's cool. You got to see it through. Yeah. I get that. I have the weirdest notes in my note app of like ideas. but they're like they're like sometimes I'll look at them and I'm like I don't know what I meant with this like I will never go back to that you also have the weirdest dreams that I feel like I do yeah like nightmares I should say I feel like so many of your ideas come from a little blip in your dream yeah or my kids weirdly their kids are scary where like they'll tell me a little bit of a like nightmare or something that they're scared of and I'm like can I use that like is that cool if I put that in a book you even ask them permission yeah I'm like is it I know I should just take I'm like I made you my poor children yeah I've done uh taking things without permission including a head full of ghosts I scarred my wife Lisa with it because young Mary the eight-year-old character was definitely our daughter Emma when she was eight years old that was her personality yeah that's so cool I mean hey you have to write what you know right you do yeah yeah I think my youngest had uh an imaginary friend we well Skeletone was one but he's not gonna yeah I think my youngest had an imaginary friend we well Skeletone was one but he's not gonna be in a in a book the mister but the mister and she named him the mister which she once told us he'll always find you yeah so like she literally sat on a cover she said don't worry the mister will always find you like I think it was because they were playing hide and seek her and my husband and they were like hiding under a blanket and he was like who are we hiding from like who's finding and she was like the mister and he was like I'm sorry what and she was like don't worry he'll always find us and he was like I hate this what does that mean that's terrifying that's a great baroque title the mister will always find you the mister will always find you I like it yeah it's mine going back to scary memories or anything like that do you know or can you think of the first story that ever scared you so badly that it's still with you to this day maybe you read it or you heard it oh yeah so I mean for me it was all movies I mean I think I'm trying to think age-wise there was I mean in this when I say this era I don't want to give away where you guys live but in the New England area sure I was I'm old enough that there was a program called Creature and I was like I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this feature double feature that played man this was like late 70s early 80s okay on Saturday so they show two movies the first movie was always like Godzilla or Gamera kaiju movie and that's what drew me in yeah the second movie was a horror movie like a hammer horror movie or black and white love this you know some of the like just dumbest horror movies that get and eventually were on mystery science theater right oh hell yeah those gave me nightmares I had a attack of the killer shrew nightmares I still remember it's such a bad movie um I had nightmares from the movie Alien before seeing it because I was listening to my parents and my aunt talk about how scary the movie was. Oh my God. That used to happen to me when I was little all the time. In fact, I remember you were there at one of my uncle's houses and all of you guys were talking about it. And I just heard like the tail end and like little bits of your conversation. And I was afraid of whatever it was. I didn't even know what it was, but I was so scared of it for like months. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yep. But by far Jaws gave me the most nightmares by far. Jaws was such a foray into horror, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It started at my high school, which is weird. When I was like in fifth grade, they were showing summer movies at the high school because they had like an auditorium. Okay. And my dad took me and he pitched the movie to me this way. He's like, oh, there's a scene in this movie that captures of what it feels like to catch a fish that moment, right? When you catch it on the hook. And you're like, awesome. I'm in. I mean, yeah, that scene where Quint catch, you know, hooks him. It's there, but he could have told me some other things about that movie. You left out some bits. A little different feeling. Yeah. So like I, it's one of my favorite movies I've seen at 50 times since, but I still cover my eyes when Quint gets, sorry for the spoiler, but when Quint gets bit, when he gets bit in half, that broke my little 10 year old brain. And I'm not exaggerating. I had 10 years of shark nightmares after that movie. Oh, I believe that. So I've seen the movie I've watched with my kids and we'll ceremoniously put the pillow over our faces. I've seen way more gorier stuff. I'm just like afraid that my brain will return to the 10 year old brain. Yeah, probably would. It could. It's a core memory. You know, your kids want to see Jaws so badly. So now we're going to rethink that one. And they're, my oldest are 10, they're 10 year old twins and they want to see it so badly. So I've been like easing them in by being like, here's a picture of Bruce, the shark as a robot. Like it's not real. I'm trying to be like, here's the behind the scenes of all of it. So hopefully it'll help. But I'm like, I don't know. You have a pool or friends with the pool and put the TV and be on floats while you're watching. I want to do it so bad. That would be so good. We have the projector too. We do need to do that. You know, they're so brave. Like they're so brave at first about horror things. They're like, I can do this. Let's do it. And then the night time rolls around. You have to be brave during the day for sure. And we regret it immediately. That's how I am still. Very brave during the day. And then at night I'm like, this is so scary. And I don't want to ruin horror for them. So I'm trying to like ease it in. I'm like, I don't want to give you trauma right off the bat. Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen, have they seen gremlins? They haven't yet. We were just calling them gremlins. I was going to say, I refer to them as gremlins a lot because at nighttime they always have like an assortment of ailments and nightmares and eating. I'm like, literally, I can't feed you after midnight. Can you wet? Straight up gremlins. Very precarious. I do wonder going back to your writing process, what's the strangest place that you've gotten inspiration from a book that you can think of? There was a moment of like panic when I was on a train in England. Okay. Uh, I was doing, uh, an amazing book tour over there for the cabinet at the end of the world. Okay. And I knew the next book was due in less than a year at this point. And the novel I was imagining doing was going to take, was going to be a big one and it was going to take way longer than a year. I'm like, Oh no, what am I going to do? I got to come up with an idea. And I had this weird, what if for a zombie that I don't want to say necessarily because it's spoils the book. Okay. Um, so that was sort of like forced, uh, yeah, I guess forced inspiration. I don't know, the other way, the other ways it's just fun. Like where it comes from and you never know, like my book horror movie came from friend and amazing writer. Sorry to name drop it. I've already mentioned Grady, but Stephen Graham Jones, you know, amazing guy. Right. And amazing. He's like, Hey, you should watch this YouTube. Uh, my friend, Walter Chow was this, uh, you know, great, uh, critic and he hosts these matinees and then talks about the movie. So basically it was an hour of Walter and writer musician, John Darnielle talking about Texas chainsaw massacre, which was a movie that I didn't, I wasn't brave enough to watch until I was in my late, late thirties. I love that. But since I've seen it, I love that movie. And that's your good one. Their discussion sent me into a rabbit hole that became horror movie. So I don't know. It was just, you never know where it comes from and just try to be open to it. Yeah. Nice. I'm actually, I am in the middle of reading horror movie right now and I love it. So there's that. That's on my TBR list here. You're coming up close. Once you read it, I'll just steal it from you. Yeah. I'll hand it over. Um, so in going with the writing process still, do you have, do you start with an ending in mind or you, do you just kind of like torture it out of your characters and see what happens? I like how you put that. Um, I typically have some notion of the ending. Sometimes it's really foggy. Sometimes it can be, this is the last line I have to earn my way there. So I'd say most of the time it's obviously I have a beginning in a, in a vague or sometimes the end in mind. And it's like the hard part is all the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And you're kind of, so you're thinking of ambiguous endings. I feel like that you have to figure it out. You get to decide kind of. Yeah. I guess I've done that a few times. Yeah. That's fine. I don't know if you've heard that or not, but do you always know the true ending or are you kind of feeling that way too? It depends on the, I guess it depends on the story. So a head full of ghosts in my mind, there's no true ending. And I think, you know, when I wrote it, I had to purposely divorce myself from thinking there was a true ending. So I thought then a true, like the true ending would and I didn't want that. Like I want a head full of ghosts if it was scary at all to be scary precisely because we didn't know and have that, you know, to me, that's just the scary part of life. Like we have beliefs and, but ultimately we just don't know. And I think anytime you use ambiguity, it, it helps trigger that a little bit, which, you know, helps maybe scare people if it, if it works that way. You know, the cabinet at the end of the world, I way underestimated how many people are going to be upset not knowing if the world was ending or not, because to me, not about that. It became about the two, the two, the husbands and what they were going to decide that to me, that was the story, but something like the pallbearers club, you know, it plays with the ambiguity, but yeah, I'm pretty sure she's a vampire. If you don't want to believe she is, that's fine too. I would not, you know, I would definitely wouldn't want to like spoil someone's reading experience, but, uh, but she's a vampire. I mean, that's fun. Who wouldn't want that to be the ending? I think so too. I like that. I think it, I think it's more fun that way because it lets somebody, it like stays with someone longer when they have to sit there and think about it and wonder. I hope it's never, I never want it to be like a cheap, like twist, you know, twists are fun, but like, I don't want that to be just like a gimmick. Like, yeah, you don't want that to be like, I, you know, even if, you know, anyone out there has read it and doesn't like it, just, I don't know if this assures you or makes you feel better, but like, I thought hard about it. It's like, I'm going to do this. I know I'm asking a lot to read 300 pages and then maybe having open-ended stuff, but I don't know. I try to, the questions linger afterwards. Yeah. I like that too. I think it's scarier, like you said. One last question for you about your writing process or just writing in general. If readers can take one thing away from your work beyond the scares, what would you want that to be? Oh, wow. Uh, that's, I know we're ending on a heavy question. Yeah, that's hard. Well, especially with the novels, what, what I typically lean towards doing is I'm trying to make it feel like as realistic as possible. This is what it would feel like if there was, uh, a maybe demon possession or this would, this is what it would look like. Okay. Um, and maybe just hopefully people take away like the characters. Like there, I can really only think of, Prior to the novel, it's coming out like one mustache-twisting villain in all my prior books in Cabin. You know, there's one character who might be a villain. But everyone else, I want people to, again, some of the horror, I think, is these people are doing terrible things. I write them in such a way, hopefully, that you still understand why they did it and maybe recognize, like, oh, if not, but for other circumstances in my own life and the luck that I've had and the privilege, that maybe that would be me. You know, and that's a scary sort of realization. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, but, you know, it depends on the story. I mean, these are just the things that I write. Like, in the book that's coming out, you know, the AI in the book is definitely not to be sympathized with at all in any way. But, yeah. All right, guys, we're taking a quick break so that we can talk about one of our most favorite sponsors, Ashley. I am obsessed with Ashley. And they were nice enough to send us this gorgeous furniture that you see me sitting my little bum on. And we got a coffee table. We got this gorgeous sofa. We got the loveseat over here. We'll show you all these different pieces. It was so important to me when I was updating my studio that I really wanted, like, a timeless, almost kind of, like, vintage feel. I love really rich dark woods, which you can see. This is the core stone end table. One, I love, again, the rich dark wood. But also the fact that you can. You can kind of dress up the bottom shelves or, like, the little shelves right there with your decor style. This is the Revion Lake sofa and the matching loveseat over there. One, I love that it goes really well with what we have already for morbid decor. And two, I just feel like the color fits so well with the paint color and the overall vibe that we have in here. So, thank you so much to Ashley. We are obsessed with this furniture. Your home or your pod lab should show off who you are. Ashley has styles that balance timeless appeal and modern trends to bring your personal look home. Ashley is dependable with a modern feel, offering well-crafted, as you can see, affordable pieces built to stand up to real life and with great looks that are made to last. Plus, Ashley provides fast, reliable white glove delivery right to your room of choice. Visit your local Ashley store or head to ashley.com to find your style. All right. So, let's talk about your book club pick, Victorian Psycho. Excellent. Excellent pick. Top notch. Such a good pick. This book is little, but she is fierce. She is. To quote. Who is that? Is that Shakespeare? Sure. Mighty? I don't know. She's mighty. Who knows? So, let's talk about moments that made us cringe throughout the book because I cringed throughout this entire thing. It was a lot of cringe. Yeah. I tabbed the hell out of this book. Oh, wow. Yeah. I could not stop. Also, can I just say, like, I love Winifred. She's awful. Yeah. But she's hilarious. And I was, like, rooting for her in a weird way. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I was, like, yeah, kill that family. No, like, I was laughing and gasping. Yeah. Less cringy. Like, I couldn't. Yeah. So, we're going to get spoilery. This is good. Yeah. We're going to get spoilery. It'll be in the notes, too. So, you guys know. Yeah. We're going to be talking about the book. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I was lucky to be sent, like, an ARC and I happened to have the time to, you know, to be able to read it. And I was a little nervous going into it only because, like, anytime, like, and I know this from experience, like, using it. Using a title that references, like, a famous work. Yeah. I was like, ooh. You know. Like, uh-oh. We'll see. We'll never watch it because it's immediately going to be compared. I read it and actually, you know, you know, it's pretty awful. You know, I really do like that book. Yeah. So, I was like, all right, we'll see what happens. But, man, she had me at the end of the first chapter, Mrs. Abel, I'm used as a woman who has never held a penis. Yeah. It was just the timing of it. I tabbed that one. She was describing, you know, like, I'm so bad at remembering the character names, but describing the woman who was in charge of. Like, the house and everything. It's just like, you were not expecting that line. No. There were so many lines that you were just not expecting. It was just said so plainly. That's what I loved. Yeah. She was just so funny. And, like, the little asides that she would make to the reader were so funny. Yeah. I felt like we were, like, friends throughout the reading process. Because she would say something like, like, dear reader or something. And I was like, I know, girl. Like, I was, like, we're in this together. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And I love that she had, like, it was like the little asides that you didn't see coming where she was like, I teach them history and arithmetic and what corpses smell like and friends. And I was like, wait, what? Back up. That's part of it. And they're just sprinkled everywhere in this book. They really are. I loved it. She surprised me everywhere. She did. Yeah. Also, like, with the, like, cringy moments, I felt like there was so many genuinely hilarious moments that I felt guilty laughing at at times. Yes. Like, there was a point when she's, this is awful, but with, like, original baby. When she's like. Original baby and new baby. The original baby and new baby was killing me the entire time. And when she says, I spit out the blood and see, as so often happens when one slits an infant's carotid artery, that the baby is dead. I was like, why is that funny and awful? Like, the way she said that. I was so nervous going into it because one of my friends read this before me and she's like, just so you know, there's, like, kid death. And, like, she, like, kills babies. And I was like, I don't know if I'm going to like that. And then she's like, you know, as so often happens when you kill a baby. And I was like, why is that hilarious? Like, no, I don't know how that is. Yeah. I knew nothing. I knew nothing going in that that was so shocking. Yeah. That was like a gasp. Yeah. And, again, laugh despite yourself. Yeah. I was like, I shouldn't be laughing at this, but this is hilarious. It's one of the magic tricks of Winnie is, and, you know, Virginia is manipulating the reader. Yes. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, to get you to be somewhat on her side. And I think people, based on what I see online, have, like, false memories of this book because they want to root for her and they assume, oh, no, she's only killing bad people. Like, yeah, she's killing the patriarchy. And she's killing, like, you know, the rich people. She's kind of killing everybody. She's killed babies a lot. Like, nobody is spared. No. She's a really cool, opportunist killer. Which I really admired about her approach because it could have been, like, I mean, it makes us feel good, but it could have been, like, yeah, like, superhero, like, she only kills the bad people. Right. Like, I don't know. I only get so much mileage out of some of those stories because it doesn't feel like real life. Yeah. Like, when I read, like, happy, not all happy endings, but, like, when I read stuff like that, like, I actually feel worse because it's like, oh, that made me feel good, but that's not the way it is. But that's not real. Yeah. Yeah. And even though as wild and fantastical in some ways that this book is, it just feels like, oh. She's fine for it. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. She really does. Yeah, because she says, like, the dead babies in the boxes that she sent to the nuns with, like, the sorry, here's another one note. I was like, I'm sorry, what? Sorry, here's one more. And they kind of, like, touch on that earlier. Yeah. I think when she's sitting down with them and she's, like, about to eat and kind of interview with them. Mm-hmm. Like, they're like, oh, that's so awful that that's happening. And in the back of your mind, you're like, is that her doing that? I'm like, are you doing that? And then she's like, can confirm. Yeah. Can confirm. Wild. Just with the note, sorry, here's another one. I was like, what? And to nuns. And just, like, breaking out of sort of the Victorian speak a little bit, too. Yeah. Yeah. There was a few times she did that, for sure. And it worked so well. And I think just, like, at one point she says, reader, she doth make a fine point about Drusilla. And I was like, she does. She really does. I'm with you on this. I know. When she found the tooth in her mouth that wasn't hers, and then it just never was explained. Right. Whose tooth was that? Like, whose molar was in her mouth? And, like, did that happen? There were so many things that happened that I was like, did that happen? Yeah. Like, I think when she's really starting to unravel, she walks by one of the rooms and there's a bunch of, like, plague doctors. Yeah. And you're like, they're not there. It's Christmas. Like, what? But they're all just like, shh. And then they just close her out of there. Yeah. Or an original baby just talks to her out of nowhere. That's how original baby got got. Yeah. Once I started talking. I loved that. Yeah. On my second read, you know, to prepare for this, because I wrote it, I read it like, you know, two, two and a half years ago at this point. Wow. Because I got the early, early copy. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, maybe this is a little bit more, way more ambiguous than I thought. Mm-hmm. Even, like, because it's written in present tense. And there's some times where I forget the end of one chapter was like, you know, it's not like, will they survive the night? And then she says, they don't. Yeah. Or something like, it breaks from present tense, you're wondering about the state of these people in the house, to her saying, no, they don't. Like, no. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, her as a storyteller is a part of it. It could just be explained away as it's a choice of how she's telling it, because, you know, by the end, you know, when she's on the gallows, sort of explaining things. Like, it just made me think, how am I, how am I learning the story? Like, how, how are we hearing this? And she even, like, says, you know, sometimes I'm not right in the head. Yeah. Not in those words exactly, but. Yeah. She's truthful. She is. Which I, I love, because that was like, oh, this is a book that I could read multiple times and still, you know. And still wonder. And still even know, like, I won't have the shock of the baby being killed. Right. And replaced with some poor farmer's baby. That she just plucks from the grounds. That she just runs down the street. Yeah. Who's going to have a different nose later on. Yeah. I loved that. There's still so many other pleasures to get from this when you're reading it. Yeah. And I like that she foreshadows the gallows a couple of times for you, where you're like, I'm sorry, what? Like, you're just like, okay, you're going to get caught after this? Like, this isn't the end. I loved that. Mm-hmm. That was really cool. Yeah. Do you think, Winifred, do you think of her as a psychopath, a villain, or the most honest person in the room? Or all of the above? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. I got to be all three, I guess. I mean. Yeah. That's what I think. If you're going to do that to a baby. Yeah. I feel. I feel that's. Yeah. That's it. The baby line. But, you know, the rest of the people in the house are. Awful. Probably as bad as she, or as bad as she is in different ways. Yeah. I think so. Oh, yeah. I think so, for sure. Yeah. Mrs. Pounds. I hated Mrs. Pounds. I was ready. From the jump, too. I was like, yeah. And the green dress she gave her, that was probably poison. Yeah. It was like, you're sick. I missed that on the first read somehow, I think. Oh, yeah. Yep. On the second read, there was more time spent with that. And, you know, that could be messing with her brain. And, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because they used to make those. We looked it up. Yeah. They used to make those dresses out of, like, arsenic. So, like. wear them a few times and then start dying yeah literally damn they put it in wallpaper too like any vibrant green thing back in the day was probably laced with arsenic wild uh what was the first scene that made you realize this book was going to be feral was it the one that you already read i think it was probably yeah yeah yeah it was like when she's i think it was like the first chapter at the end when she says in three months everyone in this house will be dead yep i was like i took notes a couple of notes and that was the first thing i wrote down i was like oh okay that was the first one i tabbed i was like damn and she's i think she starts it off by being like yeah it's gonna be like really cold and it's gonna get colder and then everyone's gonna die yeah it's crazy okay wow all right i'm into it yeah and again i feel like we just were all i was rooting for her pretty early on and i which i was shocked by because at first when i read that i was like oh no like she's gonna be is she gonna be irredeemable when she's gonna kill like a whole family and she is irredeemable that's the weird thing is like she's completely irredeemable but like why did i like her i was like that is so hard to write a character that way yeah and have it work yeah it's impressive yeah it's like the voice is just so humorous and inviting and like and she's letting you in on it so obviously that sort of like gets you over to her side yeah she is you know these people are pretty terrible right like don't you think except you know they're the people aren't so terrible who are also getting it it's true she's equal opportunity now the scene in the book also like you were thinking the feral scene what comes to mind to me is the the decayed crow pudding oh my god when she was away at school all those kids oh my god clergy daughter's school or whatever that actually made my stomach turn when i was reading it that was that was not she's like covering it up like with the maggots and everything oh my god that was i yeah that was a lot that's i think when she one of the first mentions of like and i will be hung at some point during this i was like yeah probably girl that's not good but then i also felt like weirdly bad about it because i was like oh my god i was like oh my god i was like bad for her because they were so mean to her she was saying and that was the one time that like they needed her i know it reminded me have you seen yellow jackets i haven't oh okay that's right it kind of reminded me of misty yeah one of the characters who like she's a psychopath but she like wants to be needed so desperately and she's like bullied and kind of pushed around a little bit yeah yeah so when she's needed she like makes she makes a situation where she is needed yeah essentially it felt very much like that and that's what she did she made a situation where she was like it's the only time that they ever were like nice to me i made me sad and i i like too that like like we were just saying we don't know who the worst person in the book is technically like winnie winifred is the worst person in the book but probably there's other people that you're like these people are also really terrible like mr pounds is gross mr pounds is really gross like all those people at the dinner party like the dowager i hated the dowager such a bitch with her cane just hitting people when she finally got caught with that cane i was like all right i'm into that like a perfect way to take her out yeah it really was and i mean she the thing with winifred is she exists in this like weird space in the book when i think it makes it really interesting because she's a governess so she's in charge of the kids and she she's not she's not known to be family in the beginning she's not one of the servants technically and she's also definitely not an equal no not at all but she's like she has this unique ability to be able to have more access to places and people without getting the same kind of respect that someone would and i feel like that helped tell the story really well yeah because she has all this access but she's treated so poorly right you know and i really liked that i thought that made it unique for sure absolutely and i think there's a lot of obviously the victorian high society is like a character in this book like yeah the setting like it does become a character itself and i think it's flipped on its ear here because a lot of people think of victorian high society is like you know fancy and like gilded and like everything was so like you know like they're elite they're this but she portrays them as disgusting filthy disgusting like the victorian elite are just foul yeah and i loved that it was like little things like when she's going upstairs and looking in all of their rooms and she mentions the earwax on the pillow at some point i was like oh like and like just little things like lard it was in one of their hair to keep their hair back like the scene where they're all eating yeah that i think mikey had warned you beforehand because elena has misophonia so like hearing things i swear you could hear it as you were reading it was foul that scene yeah i'm sure that was like almost like a nice counterbalance to the the crow yeah meal like that meal was just as disgusting even though these were things like fancy food specially prepared yeah yeah and how they were eating it oh i know they're just like like gouging it into their faces it's so gross and i think it's i love that they presented it that way that like these people look like may have all this money and they're they have all the power they are just as disgusting if not more than everybody else yeah like i loved i know it was almost like the like the servants in the house were like higher society than the high society people they had it more together yeah like and the high society parents of other baby you never even notice yeah that that blew my mind like a tune to like their own kid that yeah oh and the fact too that winifred knew that that wouldn't be an issue she's like oh yeah i feel like she had done that before you know and i was wondering too when she brought new baby in i was like what's gonna happen here right because in my head i'm like of course she's gonna know that seemed like a corner impossible to write out of yeah it really did she really just like yeah you're not gonna notice i love it oh yeah like that's and it was part of the whole like look how disgusting these people are she doesn't even know her own child right like even and it wasn't like oh i picked a baby that's like the same size it seems she was like this doesn't look like this baby at all and not only that it's like it's not as big as this baby doesn't look like this baby has a mole that that baby doesn't have she scrapes it off i'm also like is the baby bleeding when you return it like what like that outfit it was wearing was like covered in blood but she's like ah i don't know like babies they throw up like she said she's like i've learned like mess looks like blood it's fine it's the same and i was like and she and it worked they just showed up the next at the next thing being like here's the baby like i love the next thing with the baby a little older and looking even less even less like it should have like and i loved it because she was like its nose is gonna look different and that's gonna be a conversation later i was like i thought that was so funny but yeah it was and it what's what's cool too is she obviously like did a lot of research about victorian times and like weird victorian customs because they were nuts like that whole mummy unwrapping part i was like what is this and in my head i was reading it and being like this is crazy and then i looked it up and i was like oh that was a thing like they actually like wealthy victorian families would go to egypt they would buy an entire mummy as a souvenir bring it home have a party and then they would all just unwrap the mummy and i was like what that's the weirdest i'm sorry what we're we're a strange society and like for what purpose i don't understand why are we doing this bored rich imperialists because we can't very much that yeah yeah and we were reading more like they were you know they were talking like when she's dressing drusilla and getting her ready and like all these like features that they find to be desirable are all like features of like tuberculosis like that's and that was considered desirable back then it was like super pale and like super frail and you know the the flush in the cheeks and like literally looking sick looking consumptive was the cool thing and i love that she put it in there yeah because it was all very real like again the the green dress like that's a thing i think she mentions the belladonna eye drops that was a thing to like dilate their pupils and they would just go blind after a while but they'd be gorgeous they'd be gorgeous you know big eyes like what but one thing i really liked about this was in the end when drusilla joins in and is all like doing all the things for days they're the 12 days of christmas the 12 days of christmas when they and when they set them all up at the table and like feed them like food like they're just like having a whole feast with them i was like this is the most fucked up thing i've ever read and i love it but do you think that drusilla actually was taking part in that or do you think she was chained up the whole time yeah it's a great question i was i loved this i was gonna ask what you thought about drusilla at the end too yeah um to go back to like you know how much is this how much more of this is ambiguous than maybe we think there's a line early on the book where i think you know winnie is confessing stuff you know she says i fear i am succumbing to elaborate flights of fancy um you know there's chance to be like other times or something you know yep so she's like fairly early on so yeah i don't know i mean i i think just because it's so weird to say that you enjoy your time with winnie that you want to think all this happened yeah just as she says you're there just as she says and that you're there with her at the end and so you actually we feel or as the reader i felt betrayed by drusilla yes i did too yeah yeah which is so weird and you know yeah yeah like why do i feel this way yeah when i got to the end i was like pissed at drusilla i'm like come on that's your sister you're supposed to like ride together but then once i finished reading i was thinking about just her being kind And I was like, maybe, I don't think so. think Drusilla actually did help with all that. And then I think when she sees Drusilla in the crowd at the gallows and she's crying, I don't think Drusilla is crying because they had this killing bond together or anything like that. I think she's crying because of what happened to her family. Yeah. Like she massacred her whole family. I think she was chained up for the whole thing. And I think Winnie just didn't want to be in an alone maybe. Yeah. Right. Cause that's a hard switch to flip. I mean, I think there were no clues of Drusilla's potential psychotic behavior. Right. Yeah. Anywhere else, you know, prior to the, you know, just to the like Caligula sort of 12 days of Christmas that, you know, that Winnie says she took a part in. Yeah. And that's the only thing I could think of with that, that I went back to. And I think this was smart of her to plant these little things in there was like the painter, like the lecherous painter that she was into. And now, you know, the mother got mad and then the father made her hold the locket up and shot it. She had anger toward them. So I was like, you planted that, which. Yeah. Which like, obviously you're not going to be like, so you should kill your whole family. Like that's, but you could at least go back to it and be like, did that like break her a little bit? That's true. That's a little hardcore to have that shot out of your hand. Yeah. Like having to hold a locket and have it shot out of your hand. Well, and I think the painter said something to her and again, we can't be sure that he did, but she finds a note when she's putting Drusilla to bed and he says something like, you have weird tendencies. So like, please stop writing me. Yeah. That's right. That's a good point. So who knows? Was that real? Like, could that be just Winifred? Like trying to justify the whole thing or trying to be like, she's with me. Like this did happen. That's why I think the end is so fun because you really can't be sure whether Drusilla was part of it or if she wasn't. Yeah. Right. It's strange to be made to want to think, oh, Drusilla is going to carry on as like the next Victorian psycho to the electric boogaloo. Hey, it leaves it kind of open, you know, maybe Drusilla's story is next. It does. Who knows? And I don't know, which would you prefer to be? Like, was she taking part in it or was she, would you rather her have been? I feel like I prefer her to take part in it in a weird way. Yeah. This is the fun part of me, which I don't let out very often. That is rooting for that. Right. Yeah. But I think, you know, the more I think about it, I was like, ah, I think, you know, it's more, you know, most of the stuff happened, but it's being refracted through Winnie and go towards more realistic interpretation. Yeah. She was probably, she ended up there. It makes sense. It does make sense in the end. I feel like unless, and again, unless she's like this like criminal mastermind and she like partied with her for a few days and then realized they were going to get caught and was like, well, I'll just quickly do this. No one's going to believe that her over me. They are related. So you do have to wonder, is there something, are they both missing the same screw? But then again, are they related? Because Mr. Pound said, that's not my daughter. That's true. I think Mr. Pound's just a piece of shit. Which made me wonder too. I'm like, is he just saying that to be an asshole or is that really not her daughter? When he talks about being, she talks at different times about being observed and she's not sure quite who and maybe it's Drusilla and for a while she thought it was Drusilla. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Interesting. Yeah. There's a lot that you have to wonder. Yeah. From Winnie's perspective. There definitely is. And I think that's just fun. You mentioned people to hate before. Like we haven't, I hate, I hated Andrew the most. Oh my God. I hate Andrew so much. And I was like, why do we have this eight year old child? Is he only eight? Yeah. I think he's literally eight years old. He becomes bigger and older, but yeah, he's only eight. Yeah. He walked, he walked in on the first day and he was like, screw you. This is how it's going to go. My last nanny was better than you. And I was like, you don't run stuff around here, little Andrew. And I think he was like licking food off of one of the nurse's fingers. And I was like, no, I'm not. No. Yeah. Just, you know, Mr. Pound in training. Yeah. That's exactly what it felt like. And that's the thing. Well, it's funny, you know, thinking of that because Lisa's a huge fan of like Jane Austen and other Victorian novels. I wonder, are you all Victorian readers, Austen, et cetera? I haven't been a big Victorian reader. I'm curious as someone who was a big they would think of the voice of the style. Yeah. That would be interesting. Yeah. Actually. Yeah. I haven't read a ton of that. So yeah, I thought it was really fun. I know. Cause I feel like Victorian novels, usually like the ones I've read from like school and such. Yeah. I feel like they do present the Victorian age as like this very like fancy, whimsical and romantic time, which I'm sure it had elements of, but like this one, I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I do think there's an element of like the manners, you know, because I know Jane Austen, you know, was riffing the manners and using that to, for sure. Using that to represent the difference between the classes as opposed to like killing babies. I think that there is that, there is the manners component to it. Like, you know, the dinner that we talked about and just how Winnie is treated and you know, how she'll say things that probably in reality would have gotten her like fired right away. But you know, for our benefit, that that's funny. I don't know. Yeah. I love the couple of times where they'd be like, excuse me. And then she'd say something completely different. That was great. Like when she says, are we not allowed to eat the children? Like, right. As she's like licking a calf head on like a, I was like, what? I also just love that everything that went ignored that she did like, uh, yeah. The, even I think it was like the first day that she was there, she bites into the calf's head. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. And she's like, somebody finds her and she turns around and she's like, oh, we're not allowed to eat the children. Yeah. I didn't know that. And they were just like, what? They're like, okay, you're strange. I love her. I like, I just love how like unhinged she is. To the, like her coworkers. Yeah. Like, you know, she talked at times about like dreaming of being, this is my forever family. Like she says that a couple of times, even though, you know, she has nothing but disdain for the pounds, but there's still like, she wants to be part of something. I don't know if it's sometimes if it's humor or her, I don't know. Like, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Like why? Yeah. That's what I meant. Like earlier, it wasn't just like, you know, she's just, you know, she's just scything her way through the upper class. Right. Like there's no one is spared. Like a try, I think makes her really difficult. Yeah. And even stranger, like how much we enjoy her. Cause she talks about having like line, like shelves lined with dead babies at home as a child too, as a child. And that like, she had a full grown woman like outside dead and she was like, she didn't fit on the shelf. And it was like, is that real? Like, did you really do that? I think it is. I think it might be. Yeah. I think one thing that we didn't touch on that I would love to hear, like how you guys felt, were you absolutely shocked when you found out that Mr. Pounds was her father? And do you believe that he actually was? Uh, I'd say yes. And yes. Yeah. I think that's very believable. Even, you know, of other stuff is of her sort of creation. I think the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I was shocked. But I was, yeah. Yeah. I got to that point when it was like John Pounds and my mouth literally dropped. And then you have to wonder, you're like, okay, like, is this the Mr. Pounds? So then I kept reading and it was then confirmed. I was like, holy shit. Yeah. I didn't see that coming. And she went in there with a mission. So like when it happened, it was revealed. I was like, oh, like this makes sense why she went in there with like a mission. When she had it like arranged that she got that job too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was crazy. I know it was wild. I thought that was a really good, just like, like all of a sudden, just like, oh my God. And it was weird too, like going back to like Drusilla, now that I'm thinking about it, it's weird that Drusilla did survive this whole thing if she wasn't a part of it. Cause I'm like, why did you save her? Like, did you see something that you like, and you kind of see throughout the book that she does kind of try to like guide Drusilla a little bit more than like Andrew or anyone else. Like, I'm like, I wonder what that was, like what that connection was. I wonder if it was like the unwanted daughter kind of thing. Cause she's an unwanted daughter. And then they're always like, whenever she brings up Drusilla to Mr. Pounds, he's like, yeah, whatever, Andrew, like he's going to take over the name, the family name. So maybe it was that. And like, he gets all like the classes and all the people teach him things and you know, she's just going to learn needlework and get married. Yeah. To get married. So maybe that is it. Maybe, but I think it kind of lends itself even more to the ambiguity of the whole thing. Cause now I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe she was chained to that whole thing the whole time, or maybe she was part of it. I don't know. But I also love that this has like, there were, I was reading it out loud, like certain parts of it to my husband last night. Cause I was just like laughing at certain friends. He's like, what is this? So I'd read him a line every once in a while. And he was like, what is this story? But I think it has such a good mix of like pure horror. Like the end is horrific. The baby being killed horrific. And like them, even them eating, it's so funny. It's like, but there's real comedy in there too. It's like such a good mix. And I feel like that's really hard to accomplish. Because you're either, it's going to go too horrific and you're going to be like, the comedy doesn't fit here and it makes it weird. And like, I'm uncomfortable with it or it's going to go to like goofy. And then the horror feels goofy too. And neither of these felt goofy. It felt like a perfect mix. And it reminds me that, have you watched Widow's Bay? Yes. Oh yes. I haven't started it yet. I've been trying, I'm like trying to recruit people to watch Widow's Bay now. It gave me the, cause I think that show, that's how I've been describing it to people is like the horror in it is genuinely scary at times, but it is so funny. And the funny isn't overly goofy where it like, you know, waters down the horror of it. So it gave me that. It's, that's a great point. And I've, in other interviews I've, I mean, cause I love, I like horror comedies, but I think it's really hard to sort of say what you described is not to have the source of the comedy be the horror. That's what most horror comedies are. It's really fine, hard to find in my mind, horror comedies that are both scary and funny, especially in terms of film. And I agree that this book does it, Widow's Bay is doing it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, and I was, when we first started watching Widow's Bay, I was like, "Oh my God, they nailed this combo." And again, like you were saying, you just like don't really see that work ever and so I was like oh this is like a diamond in the rough like holy shit yeah and then reading this right after we started watching this I was like how have I come across two pieces of media that have done this so well in the same like two weeks it's the horror renaissance it's the horror renaissance I tell you it is that's what makes me so excited for this to now be translated into film I feel like it's gonna be really fun yeah I'm nervous I know I'm nervous I'm scared I'm excited cautiously optimistic but we always we always have this yes if the film does not work we have this well and the fact that you said she wrote the screenplay that gives me a lot of optimism yeah yeah yeah all right now I think we have to get to what I think you might have come for which is the rapid fire would you rather all right kind of slasher edition yeah we got a mix yeah we have a whole mix in here like new england stuff in here there's victorian psycho some of your some of your work in here yeah all right all right so number one would you rather be trapped in a mirror uh manor with winifred for 24 hours or trapped in a group chat with every villain character from your novels uh I think I'll go with the group chat just because I feel like I won't die I might be really annoyed and disturbed but like I think I wouldn't last very long with winifred in the house fair enough and you can always throw on like do not disturb you know that's valid yeah I think that's I think that's what I would do I'd be afraid she would be like I don't know I don't know I don't kill me and replace me with other Paul and people would be like oh yeah there's Paul with new Paul there's original Paul and then there's new Paul yeah see I hate like I'm one of those people that people will text me and I'll look at it and be like oh I should answer that and then I just don't for like five days and then I'm like I'm so sorry and it's like I'm just bad at it and I get overwhelmed and like executive dysfunction so I feel like being in a group chat yeah is my nightmare well and the villains in your book might kill you they might just I don't want to listen to them so I think I don't know I feel like me and Winifred for 24 hours we might be okay could be a cool hang I feel like we might be you could have like a Drusilla and Winifred kind of vibe yeah I just want to believe that or would there be other people in the house for her to kill just in case or is it just you that's a no one-on-one just one-on-one one-on-one so you do have to survive that yeah because she is gonna have to go 24 hours so she started off pretty chill she did give her a calf's head yeah there you go let her lick you every once in a while yeah give her your earlobe that's all you need yeah yeah I think it's fine you know what yeah I'm in ruin Winnie I'm going Winnie I mean I don't want her to lick me but all right so the next one is would you rather have a ghost follow you forever just follow you around or a book reviewer follow you forever oh man I think I'll have to go with the ghost yeah I mean that'll be very scary at night though but like I don't know how you do it but like I actively avoid reading any Goodreads or Amazon There Lies Madness so I mean if you're talking like oh like a I don't know like a New York Times review is following me around I feel like they might be a little bit more polite but I don't know maybe they wouldn't harangue me as much we're making it a random internet reviewer if it's random internet then there's no choice I would do the ghost yes 100% I agree with you 100% I'd pick a ghost too just because I think that's fun yeah and I feel like ghosts have followed me in my life so nothing new here and I feel like you could eventually become friends yeah the ghost like you could you could have a rapport at some point yeah you get used to their tendencies it's like roommate exactly here I'd annoy because I'd start calling him Casper or something and they'd get pissed off and they'd be like maybe that's your bond you know that's true that's your thing all right would you rather receive one life-changing terrifying supernatural hesitation like earth-shattering just one just one or would you rather receive one brutal good reads review every morning so I have to review it I have to read it just one every morning which is a probably tough way like that's a hard start yeah geez maybe I mean so like 98% of my day I'm a card-carrying skeptic atheist don't believe in anything but there's like the 2% where I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm like I don't know what to do I don't know what to do and I'm totally freaked out the next day I'm like Paul are you such an idiot so like you know I I tell people that I don't believe but I don't want to be proven wrong so even though I'm leaning towards the first thing um because in some way in some ways that would actually still also be really cool like yeah whoa there's there it is this exists so I think I would go with the first yeah I'll probably scare the shit out of me and I'd be like yeah because it's gonna be brutal but at a bad review every day for the rest of your life yeah you know that'll get you down that would that's the thing I can't I feel like it with proper therapy and help I can get past the brutal supernatural experience that I can't explain that's true but having it happen like a brutal good reads review every morning for the rest of my life I feel like that would that would take years that's too close to home I mean because I could do that easily yeah that's the thing I could do that right I don't want to yeah don't do that you too yeah no no no uh so this one I'm really interested in would you rather be able to write a first draft in one week or like Stephen Graham Jones yeah just like boom exactly like boom here we go or would you like to be able to revise a manuscript perfectly on one pass uh I'll do the one pass one pass one pass on the manuscript I was hoping you would answer that way because I also feel that way yeah yeah because I'm fine with the first draft taking forever yeah I mean as hard as it can be uh I love like how life sneak sneaks in like it usually takes me 12 to 15 months to come up with a draft and oh it's kind of fun like the book gets better by living with that book for that time like things happening things that I never would have in that week I never would have come up with like it took that time so I think I'm taking this too realistically but yeah no it's true that's a realistic one you know it makes sense because it kind of like dips into you know if like something's happening that week the writing's might change with it or a character might change with it so I feel the same way I think I don't mind like sitting with a draft for a while and like tinkering with it yeah but once it comes to like the first passes and the edits that's when I'm like let's get through this so definitely that one me too yeah you know yeah so the next one this is also a really good one I feel would you rather encounter a ghost from 1692 Salem or the ghost of a really salty sea captain from Cape Cod we're saying salty personality yeah and maybe he's salty and probably as well he's probably physically salty as well you know my knee jerk is to go with the salty person but I think I would become really annoying because I know I would just start talking like them like I'm it's so bad like if I talk to British friends for more than five minutes I start I get that way too on purpose and I feel like such an asshole it just starts happening yeah but I think maybe for the comedy of it the salty sea captain I think that's a fun one because then I would have a new impersonation there you go or so you could just slip into every once in a while I would pick that too I grew up in Beverly next to Salem so I'm like ah I mean I love that area but like ah give me the new give me the new guy yeah 1692 ghost just sounds really scary they probably really like faced a lot in their life so and I wouldn't understand what they're saying like how they talk oh that's true have you ever seen the movie The Witch like yeah you know I love that movie but like I don't know what you'd have to constantly be like what and then you might start talking like that yeah that's true that's true see I might regardless of all of that I might pick the 1692 that just makes sense for you because I just want to know yeah everything like I think I'd be like sit down tell me at all like what happened here yeah I need to know I want to know everything that's fair I also want to I want to know like are there still bodies under you know gallows hill yes burial point you're still thinking Widows Bay you want to hang out with Hamish exactly the Warren yes I want to know about that I want to know about that I want to know about that I want to know about like tell me tell me what it is like we haven't used they haven't figured out if there's still bodies buried in that area and I'm like you gotta tell me so yeah you'd ask about like Giles Corey oh yeah I'd be like what was he like he seems kind of he was kind of a dick yeah like iconic at the same time you know yeah yeah I'd want to know all of that I get that I'm going sea captain I get it yeah just fun yeah you know that's fine so I'll get the 1692 person yeah and we'll sing sea songs yeah I love it and then we'll all get together and we can learn things compare notes yeah all right this one's kind of heady would you rather have definitive proof that ghosts do exist or definitive proof that they do not which we kind of touched upon but we did sort of hmm I think the first again the first one would be more fun like like I would say like I don't have to prove they don't exist to me that's almost like the assumption like you would have to prove the other way right yeah yeah I mean I think you'd be like the most famous person on earth and it's true it totally cash in on proving I'm just thinking I want money I'm a full-time writer now I need money I'm desperate so yeah let me prove the ghosts and you know write four tell-alls yeah on it and interviews like yeah one-on-one yeah yeah experience I want proof that they exist simply because that's just I don't want to live in a world where they don't exist that's how I feel fun that what's the fun in that because I always say the same thing like I'm a I want to believe more that they do exist we've had so many experiences that it's crazy to me that you're still skeptical well there's I try my first My first knee-jerk instinct is to try to explain it with some kind of logic. We grew up in a haunted house. And I try to explain it. And sometimes I can, but sometimes I can't. So many things in that house we grew up in, inexplicable. Yeah. There's definitely been a lot of things. And that's why I'm more over on the side of like, okay, I think there are something. I don't know what. Yeah. Well, when I'm always posed that question, I feel like I disappoint people. I say, yeah, like, you know, because I've never experienced anything. Yeah. And I've always said, I feel like if I were to experience, it wouldn't be like Slimer from Ghostbusters. Yeah. It would be really subtle. Yep. And just off. And like, as time passes, I would be, I would want to explain it away. Yeah. And that would just be the way it would go. Yeah. So, but anyway, I don't know if that adds anything. I was just thinking about it. I think, well, and I had like, like one thing that happened in our house growing up that I, to this day, like cannot explain. And that's the one that really like got me like, what was that? We had like, my house used to be like an old house. It was an old farmhouse. So it's got all this like crazy history and it's super old. We found like weird shit buried on the property. Yeah, there was always weird shit buried there. And the primary bedroom, like they added, my parents added onto the house, but the primary bedroom like used to be my bedroom. And it always had weird shit going on in it. But again, I was like, it's fine. Nothing's weird here. And it became my parents like art studio when I kind of like got older and I moved into another room. That room is scary as hell. And it's scary now. And we had like, it was when we had which like RIP computer. Rooms where it was like the room where the computer lived. They used to shut the door every time. And you had to go past the primary bedroom, the old one to get to the computer room. And one night I was walking past it to go to the computer room. The door was shut and something from behind the door hit the door from inside so hard that I jumped across the hall, like into the wall. My dog like jumped up and was like, what the hell was that? Oh, I think my, my. My dad heard it and was like, what did you just do? Like, what was that? And I was like, I have no idea what that is. It was in there. He opened the door. Nothing was against the door. It sounded like somebody took this and slammed them against the door. And it was right when I walked by. That's terrifying. And that's the one that I'm like, I don't know how that happened. That's a good one. That same room, I used to spend the night in that room. If like you had people over or something, I would sleep in that room. And I was on an air mattress, like watching the Disney channel. Probably I was like 10 years old. And. Yeah. There was this like Tupperware, like container thing full of old magazines. And it was probably like two o'clock in the morning. And it just slid across the room with like crazy force. I screamed so loud. My grandparents came running. You came running and nobody, there was no way to reenact that or anything. It wasn't tilted all of a sudden because it was so forceful. That room has weird energy. If you tell me that and then say, you have to go stay overnight in that room. I would be like, hell no. I never slept in that room again. Even though I say I don't believe, like go stay in this reportedly haunted house. I am not going to do that. Yeah. So I guess on some level, I, I fear, I believe. Yeah. See, you have a health, you have a healthy fear of them. I feel most skeptics feel that way. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Healthy fears there. Yeah. All right. So bringing it back to Bridgewater Triangle. If you were dropped into the Hockamuck swamp, just right in the middle of it, would you rather find giant cryptid type footprints everywhere? Or perfectly normal human footprints that should not be there? I would, uh, I was going to say cryptid, but then my daughter would just make fun of me because she was, when she was a lot younger, she used to love Bigfoot stuff. And I was like, oh, there's no such thing as Bigfoot. And she gets so mad at me. Um, what would I, I mean, I guess I would rather see the cryptid. I mean, that would be so cool to be wrong and be like, oh, wow, there is this weird giant eight Bigfoot thing that runs around. Yeah. And humans are scary. I was going to say, who wants to come across a serial killer in the woods? No one. Like, I don't want to come across a random person in the middle of the Hockamuck swamp. That's my worst nightmare. I'd much rather run into Bigfoot. Just be one with Bigfoot at that point. Yeah, truly. Yeah. Like take on their customs and everything. I'm ready. Yeah. Let's go. I love it. Yeah. Start knocking on trees with rocks. Yeah. Communicate with them. For a fairly long. Yeah. Get crazy with it. We could bond. Yeah. That's what I'm doing. I like it. All right. Would you rather have? Would you rather have Winifred plan your wedding or host your funeral? Oh, geez. Well, it seems like family and loved ones are both in danger and jeopardy in both scenarios. That's true. That's very true. Oh. At least she doesn't have to be at your wedding. I'm going to be really selfish. I'd say plan my funeral because I'm already dead. Yeah. There you go. Like if it was my wedding, there's a chance that I could be one of. Yeah. Like the red wedding. Yeah. That's true. Right. I don't want my wedding to be a bummer. My funeral is already going to be a bummer. That's true. So she could just make it more of a bummer, I guess. She might liven it up even. Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. And you just don't have to deal with the aftermath. So it's nice to not have to clean up after her. Yeah. You know? I feel that too. I feel her wedding plans would be a little too macabre for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she can do my funeral. I agree. So back to some ghosties. Would you rather be haunted by a Puritan ghost who judges everything you do or a Victorian ghost who constantly? Instantly corrects your etiquette? That's horrific. Yeah. You can might go Victorian. Yeah. The etiquette stuff doesn't bother me. Probably much of the chagrin of some people that know me. It could be easy to laugh off that ghost. Yeah. The etiquette ghost. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like Ma is kind of an etiquette ghost. I was going to say, I think I grew up with a mom who is that. So I'll just take that. I'd be used to it. Same. Because the Puritan ghost? Ugh. Would make me crazy. Like again, I'll take the 1692 Puritan ghost that like hangs for a second and just tells me things. You got to go after that. Yeah. I can't stick around. And I would, I mean, just to take the logic out further, like if the Puritan ghost is telling me not to do things, it's like, well, if there's a Puritan ghost, maybe, you know, the God is their God. Like maybe shit, I shouldn't be doing this stuff. So there you go. I don't want to mess with my head. That's true. Oh, that's true. That's a really good point. I can ignore the etiquette, but like if the Puritan's like, you're going to go to hell if you do this, this, and this. You're like, maybe I am. That just becomes like OCD. Yeah. That becomes too existential for me and I would start losing my mind, I think. For sure. Yeah. Victorian etiquette ghost, for sure. Yeah. And after reading this book, you could just be like, you're a roast. Yeah. I know about you. Why are you telling me this? Right. Did you unwrap a mummy? Yeah. I'll unwrap a mummy. All right. You are dropped into the middle of the Bridgewater Triangle at midnight. You can choose one companion, a ghost hunter, a cryptozoologist, a priest, a witch, or Stephen King. Who do you choose? Stephen and I have exchanged a bunch of emails, but I've never met him in person. It'd be kind of fun to be in the woods with Stephen. Hell yeah. I hope he's okay with that. I don't know if he wants to be in the woods with me. Does he want to be in the woods with me? He gets pumped in there no matter what. Yeah. He's just there. Yeah. Stephen. Yeah. Me and Stephen. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely for sure. Yeah. That's your choice too. That was my choice. I was like, because I could be my own ghost hunter. Like, I don't know. Ghost hunted. With that. A cryptozoologist, I feel like, would just be like, oh, look, that's Bigfoot. And I'd be like, no, I know. I've done my own research. That's a Pukwudgie. I know. I've researched this. I'm from here. A priest. No. No. No, thank you. A witch. A witch. We are. Yeah. I was like, I could be my own witch, so that's fine. And then I was like, Stephen King in the middle of the Bridgewater Triangle, or like the Hockamuck Swamp. I was like, just start writing together. I was going to say, then maybe we could be like, let's come up with a story together. Yeah, based on your experience. Yeah. Just to have a hang with Stephen King in a weird space. I mean. Stephen here is just thinking he's going to start writing Misery 2. Yeah. It's like, oh my God. We're like, we want to be in the middle of the woods with you, Stephen. God damn it. It's like, oh, help. I love it. Yeah, that's what, what is yours? Oh, good call. Yeah. I feel the same as you. I don't, I can be a ghost hunter. Yeah. All the same reasoning. And I've never met Stephen King, so. Yeah. Why not? I'd hang with him. I'd hang with him. I have a lot of questions. Me too. I want to know about Mambo No. 5. Yeah, I really want to know about that. How he became obsessed with that song. Yep. What if he like tried to be like a real woodsman and was really bad at it? It's like, hey, you know, we can eat this mushroom. Trust me. I'm Stephen King. It's fine. Like, oh my God. I'm not lying. Like, trust me, I'm Stephen King. I mean, there are some potential pratfalls to it, I suppose. There are. It'd be silly. Because I might believe him. Like, if he ends the thing with, trust me, I'm Stephen King, I might be like, yeah, you are right. So, you are Stephen King. Well, then you'd just be tripping in the woods. That's kind of fun. With Stephen King? Yeah. Who can say they did that? There we go. I definitely would choose him over Grady Hendrix. Like, Grady would be useful for the woods. Every time. Of course. Grady. We're not plopping you in the woods. He's complaining about, like, bugs. Asks you to hold his blazer. I know. He's not used to New England. Although, like, his, like, lime-colored blazer might help us see as we, like, work our way through. It could be, like, a flair. That could be. That could be advantageous. That could. You know? He's going to be, he's going to listen to this and be like, damn, I thought we had fun on that. I know. Thanks a lot. Well, I guess I won't be joining them again. Yeah, real nice. Barring them for my next event. Well, speaking of Grady. Yeah. Last question. Okay. Would you rather fight one Stephen King clown, Pennywise, essentially, or one Grady Hendrix possessed Ikea product or Horror Store product? I think I'd go with the Horror Store. I don't know. I think the clown is, you know, too Morphe. Yeah. I've read Horror Store. It was a while ago. I don't have as much a memory as what they could do besides, like, suck me into the store and, like, the other dimension. I don't know. But I could, I feel like I could fight a bookcase name. What's it called? Like, Penny? Yeah. Or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to be scared of. Of Penny. Of Penny. that's true if that's my i have some of those in my house yeah now i'm gonna look at them ask ants and put your dukes up i see that i thought this was easy and i think it still kind of is oh it's easy for me like pennywise is too much like every fear of yours he can just become so like no and especially like the big spider no thank you but i'm also like it's also one of my biggest fears to be locked in an ikea like when when you get lost in that loop and you can't find the right way yeah that's horror see for me i'm gonna find the meatballs you are gonna find the meatballs so i'll survive that's actually smart thank you they have cinnamon buns too i think you do so that okay yeah they have good stuff i'll fight grady henderson's products yeah yeah that is survival yeah it scares their pennywise scares the shit out of me so i think it's colloquially i think it is it yeah i think everybody thinks of it as i know it's so true but yeah that's our would you rathers you survived it you killed it yeah yeah i think i got too mathy with it with my logic no i like that math teacher that's smart you're only recently retired it's not exactly i haven't gotten rid of it it's gonna leech out every once in a while and honestly grady got very into it as well he thought i know i heard him he asked for extras yeah he was like let's go we had to get them on the fly i know we were like oh my god i was like shit but i think that went well i think we all survived that oh yeah i mean i was a blast thank you for being here thanks for joining us my absolute pleasure we this was so much fun so excited for this and oh same well thank you thank you and then everybody read paul's books yes please go watch the adaptations they're amazing um and steven king don't send us a cease and desist we just want to be friends steve just in the woods yeah we just want to hang in the woods with you that's all okay you can go anytime yeah that's all so before we go yeah but dreaming of electric sheep coming out june 30th go get it you heard what it's about it's gonna be awesome and paul if you have anything else to plug or you want to further plug um i guess i i would just i don't know when this podcast is gonna run but uh on july 2nd since we mentioned grady like he and i will be at the strand new york city bookstore you know trying to sell this book go there i'm trying to convince him i'll wear the suit and he'll wear a t-shirt with tattoos that would be amazing we should wear the lime green laser yeah i love that i love it so go check them out go see where paul's gonna be and go get his books or else yeah we'll fight you all right well guys thank you for listening we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that you don't go buy paul's books do it you better you Thank you. 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