Monica Juma on values in diplomacy

I mean an attack like that and an experience of an event like that impacts somebody at an individual level, you know. I mean one of the most difficult things is looking at the eyes of a child to tell them that their father will not be coming home. Welcome to the mediator's studio, a podcast about peacemakers bringing you stories from behind the scenes. I'm your host, Adam Cooper. And I'm coming to you from the Oslo Forum. Having started out as a small gathering in 2003, the forum is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. Participants from around the world have come to discuss how to resolve the major conflicts of our day. Yemen, Sudan, Afghanistan, the war in Ukraine. My guest today is a national security advisor to Kenya's president. The third president of Kenya she's worked closely with. She's taken on the security portfolio at a crucial time amid a number of conflicts in East Africa and with Kenya aiming for a larger regional and international role. Monica Jumma, welcome to the mediator's studio. Thank you Adam, please to be here. I want to go back to the start of your government service. You were appointed as permanent representative of Kenya to the African Union in 2008. What were you doing at the time and how did that appointment come about? Well, I was actually requested by President Kivaki to serve in government and twice I refused because I wasn't quite sure what that meant. But I had started my working life in the office of the president actually where we were doing a government institutional building very early on. And I've done that for a couple of months before I went to the university. Then went round and round to our international peace academy and into South Africa. But most interesting in South Africa, I served with the Secretary-General's panel that was led by President Proudi on resourcing African-mandated UN peacekeeping missions. And the interesting thing is that we submitted that report to the Security Council in 2009 and in 2010 I took up the job to serve a Kenya's permanent representative for the African Union. And when I go to the African Union, guess what? We were asked to implement the part that helped me to the Security Council and Proudi in the Proudi panel and critically important at that time. Somalia was one of the co-files and the discussion really was whether we could expand the peacekeeping mission in Somalia. And we'll touch on Somalia a little later on in the discussion. But before then I'd like to ask you about the many senior roles you've held in the Kenya government including Cabinet Secretary for Defence, for Foreign Affairs, Minister for Foreign Affairs, in which of those roles did mediation feature most heavily? All of them. I think you mediate all the time into government positions. And I have had the luck of serving the Triad of Security. I came from the African Union where all these issues were key files. And I served at both the director general level, both interior in defence in foreign affairs before then served as Cabinet Secretary. So I have had a chance to almost see the 360 degree of the Security Triad over a period of almost 15 years. And then I transitioned to energy at the time of the energy crisis and the big debate around climate crisis. And so again it kind of duped tailored into what was has become the agenda of the world and where we are probably facing the biggest existential threat to humanity. So at all those levels you are actually negotiating at every one point. When you first started in government there were increased threats from al-Shabaab towards Kenya. So what do you remember at that time? Very bad incidences. I was witness to the West Gate attack in September 2013. In West Gate we lost 67 people. It was an attack on Amal. They laid siege on the Amal for four days and we had to deal with that. The University of Garisa attack was an attack on a university. We lost 147 kids. It was a very tragic attack. And then we had the attack on the forward base in Somalia, in a place called Elade. The good thing about the first attack, I mean if there is a such thing as a good thing of an attack, was the lessons we derived and the shift in the government program of dealing with al-Shabaab. We instituted a multi-agency framework for dealing with this type of challenges, not just the al-Shabaab but any other challenge. And we focused attention on building the capacity of government to have better prediction, better analysis and better for storing of those types of attacks. And for you, how did it affect you personally in terms of your motivations, your emotional reaction and your desire to find ways to uphold national security? Well, an attack like that and an experience of an event like that impacts somebody at an individual level. One of the most difficult things is looking at the eyes of a child to tell them that their father will not be coming home. Or a young wife, a young bride, to say that their husband will not come back home. Did you have to do that personally? Yes, I met with the families. I met with some of the families, not all of them. So this is a very definitive experience. It brings the tragedy to you at a personal level. But I think it also has a way of affirming the values that you stand for and the conviction to really do whatever is in your powers and in your ability to make sure that this doesn't happen again. So there's a way in which it focuses both your mind and energy to this such for solutions. Let's move forward to Sudan on 15th of April this year. Violence breaks out between General Abdul Fata Al-Burhan, head of the army, and the general commonly known as Hemeti, a leader of the rapid support forces or the RSF. Tensions were brought to a head by a plan to launch a new transition with civilian parties under which the army and RSF were expected to see power and the RSF was to be integrated into the regular armed forces. When the violence broke out, where were you and what did you do? I was in Nairobi. We had been monitoring this situation closely. Tensions had been rising. There were a number of issues that we thought were unresolved. So a lot of people that were watching Sudan would tell you they were not surprised violence broke up. We were surprised that they did it during Ramadan. But as soon as that happened, we'd been in under 24 hours. My president was able to convince, to help convince and eager summit at the highest level. So we were watching this and we've been watching these files very closely from that point on. There's quite a wider array of initiatives underway to try to mitigate the impact of the conflict in Sudan before we get into those different approaches. Let me first ask you a more fundamental question. Does Sudan defy any kind of mediation? It does. All mediation as we know them conventionally because there's a sense in which mediation is premised on two parties. Oftentimes, the weight has been classically defined. There'll be people from two countries, people with legitimacy, people with some grievances, oftentimes claiming to carry these grievances on behalf of their society. And I think at every of these parameters, the belligerant in Sudan don't tick any box on any of this. So what then do those who are trying to support some sort of conflict management or peace in Sudan do? In particular, about involving those who are not the two leading military forces. Well, I think the case of Sudan is one where we have to frame the problem to define what is the heart of it. And the heart of the Sudan issue is the aspiration of the Sudanese people for a civilian democratic governance. And this they expressed in a rather dramatic way that was not just demonstrated over months, but that was clearly verbalized, whether it was the call to the revolution, whether it was the demands that they placed, it was very, very clear. And so we have seen as in situation where that aspiration of the Sudanese people has been subverted and held hostage. And so, what we've been saying is that Sudan belongs to the Sudanese, it doesn't belong to two belligerents, and that every solution must be framed in this way, because it then puts those aspirations at the heart of the solution that we are seeking. Help us to understand the various peace efforts underway. There was a ceasefire of sorts signed in Jeddah back by the U.S. and Saudi Arabia, which has faced challenges. The regional organization, EGADS, of which Kenya's leading member has been very active as has the African Union. In your view, who should lead in helping the people of Sudan to chart their way to peace? Well, I think the multiple initiatives is an indication of the desire of everyone to stop what is a very tragic situation. I mean, I've had it described by some of the Sudanese to say, "This is a catastrophic near apocalyptic situation," and people have defined it that way. So I think these initiatives must be seen in this context, that there is a sense of responsibility and a desire, a very strong desire to stop this war. And all its consequences, which are very tragic, really. We are having a situation where private homes have become command centers. We are having a situation where hospitals have been taken over or have been looted, a strategic installations destroyed, you know, city brought down to rubles. So I think that is the context within which I would wish for the initiatives to be viewed from. However, if we are going to make progress, then it is important that these initiatives are deliberate and are targeted towards the strategic endgame. And essentially, we are looking at probably three buckets of actions. The first one, action around alleviating the humanitarian situation and making sure that humanitarian assistance can get in, it reaches the right people, it is secure, it is safe. And so the necessity to delineate humanitarian corridors, and frankly, the desire was to even speak to demilitarized zones where you can do stockpiles and secure that humanitarian assistance for all. That links closely to the bucket around silencing the guns, you know, so that you can have a cessation of hostilities now, as you say, a number of ceasefires have not held, a total of seven. And I think whether ceasefire holds must be measured against a facilitation of humanitarian services and other services to the population. If you use that indicator, then really, you would not speak about any success in whatever ceasefires we've had, we've had a couple of sorties in, but not enough, certainly not to the scale that is required. The third bucket of activity must be the one that is targeting the resumption of the pursuit of a democratic dispensation in the Sudan. So those are the three lines of actions principally that have been outlined in the IGAAT plan. I'd like to ask about the way in which those calls can be achieved, and in particular, what you think you personally can contribute to those processes, because it's a joint initiative that's many involved. Your president is very much at the forefront of this. Tell me a little bit about your own relationship with conflict parties, perhaps from the past, your relationships with them. Any moments of work that you feel will help you in your mission now? Well, first of all, Sudan is a country with a democratic DNA. Lots of civic action and civic people that have been driving towards democratic rule. In spite of their political experience, which has been very constricted because of the history of its leadership. In that case, there's a number of people that we have worked together, even in other theaters. If you think about the women constituency in Sudan, where they're talking about their full peace process, and all the others, where they're talking about South Sudan, now it happens that historically Kenya played a very significant role in the initial conversations that bathed South Sudan and some of those actors are on both sides of the divide. So we are in constant touch with them. I think that is useful knowing people in this kind of situation is very important. We are in contact with all sides and we hope that this will help us to advance all this line of action. Last question on Sudan before we move on to Ethiopia. When you look back at earlier peacemaking or diplomatic initiatives in Sudan, do you think there are mistakes from the past that we should be learning from now? Well, the situation in the Sudan says there are many mistakes. If we hadn't met the mistakes, I think we would be having a happy place, you know. There are mistakes, such as brave mistakes. Such as not protecting the aspiration of the Sudanese people, you know, I think they should be having the most robust democracy too. I think the international community has provided comfort to impunity, you know, in a very dramatic way in Sudan. I think there has been mistakes in terms of the level of support to the civilian administration. If there had been sufficient support in the right amount at the right point, I think it would have forced all what we are seeing now. So I think there are a number of mistakes that we have made and one hopes that they will be learning from those mistakes. Assisting Ethiopia has been a priority both for previous President Kenyatta and his successor William Ruto. President Ruto has said that Ethiopia's stability is critical to the region. How has Kenya supported peace efforts in Ethiopia? Well, probably the most manifest way is within the role of the facilitator, President Kenyatta, delivered a manner of speaking, the agreement between the government and the TPLF, Antigray, you know, I think that's the right formulation. But there has been very intense engagement at various levels. There continues to be because Ethiopia is an important, it's a very, very important country, not just to Kenya, but to the continent. As you probably know, it is host to the African Union. But it is also a neighbor to very many countries and it is a large country. So any stability in Ethiopia would have a domino effect across the Greater Hone of Africa. And so our engagement, whether it is in terms of exchange of views, there has been conversations about the national dialogue and exchange of views and expertise in terms of our own experience with that process which took us many, many years before we bathed our new Constitution 2010. And so this is a country that we keep very close tab with one another. And I think we should recognize the progress that's been made, particularly through the Pretoria Agreement signed between the TPLF and the Ethiopian government. What's your biggest fear for the future? With Ethiopia? Yes. I don't have a fear with Ethiopia because I think it is on the right track. I think there is a strong desire to forge a national dialogue which is important. And the message to Ethiopia as to Somalia is that this is a national conversation that must be determined internally. Every country must deal with its national question. I'd like to end with a few reflections on your long career. You have in your senior role. You make me feel very old. You've definitely earned the right to reflect. You have a long career ahead of you because you've done so much to date. And looking back in if you think of when you first started out in government and everything that you've learned sort of since then and you had to share one lesson with your younger self. Don't be harsh on yourself. What do you say that? Because sometimes a lot of things are defined by so many elements and you can only have control of a certain number of factors at any one time. It is very unlikely that you've been control of everything. something else would determine the path. way. And so you'll have to make do with responding to that stimuli. There I say it sounds like there's been situations in the past where you've hoped that something would be within your control, and that's not proved to be the case. Yes. Would you elaborate? Many things. And I say that because I think that's a trait of mediators in general, I'm perhaps ego that they often bring in thinking that this is sort of their conflict of soul. Yeah. And then you want to solve it now. Yeah. And then you can't see. Yeah. It is better if you finish it this way in that way, you know. And sometimes just takes longer, sometimes you just need to adjust and let it be. Yeah. Patience. Patience. Patience is really crucial. And one of the most impressive people I have seen through this is Dr. Kissinger. Yeah. You know, just patience and just letting these things right. Yeah. Well. Which if you want something to come to a conclusion, you kind of get impatient. And you think, why don't you negotiate at this point? You know, you would have had a stronger hand if you did. But I was just not ready for it. Well, let's hope that your career in diplomacy is as long and as a lot of us. Oh my goodness. His is impressive. His is yours. Yeah. Thank you. On that thought, we must leave it. Monica Jummer. Thank you so much for being my guest in Renata Studio. Thank you. Thank you very much. And there we end this edition of the Mediator Studio. To get more episodes as they come out, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We always love to hear from you. So if you have views on anything you've heard, please get in touch via the listener survey and the show notes on our website. Or do drop me a message on Twitter at Adam TalksPeace. The Mediator Studio is an Oslo forum podcast brought to you by the Center for Humanitarian Dialogue and the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our managing editor is Christina Buchold and the producer is Chris Gunness. Research for this episode was done by Noemi Blommer. Big thanks also to Lee Buidong for her support. Hope you'll be with me for the next edition. Until then, from Oslo, this is Adam Cooper saying goodbye and thanks for listening. [Music]