Momofuku's Paul Carmichael and Marguerite Zabar Mariscal

Live from WSA, this is Expense Account. Today we're joined by two very special guests. We have Paul Carmichael, the chef of New York's newest Momofuku restaurant, Kabawa, and we also have Margarit Mariscol Zabar, the CEO of the Momofuku Group. It was a treat and an honor to talk to them. Momofuku for me was a foundational text as it was for so many millennial food adjacent people in New York City in the early arts. I've loved to watch the Empire grow, and evolve, and fail and succeed, but to me, Kabawa is a real triumph. It represents the diverse, immigrant, driven, American cuisine that made Momofuku famous, but it's also purely Paul and his warmth. The three of us had a great conversation, discussing dim sum carts, non-linear career paths, and how a good, old-fashioned reservation line is a real luxury these days. This is Expense Account, enjoying. Today, we have two very special guests. We have Paul Carmichael, chef of Kabawa, and we have Margarit Zabar Mariscol, CEO of Momofuku. Did I say both names correctly? No, no, no. This is our first time having two guests, which is very fun, and I'm really excited to get into with you guys. I guess what I wanted to talk about first is your first memory as a Momofuku. You grew up in New York at Margarit, so you must have some pretty early memories. What did it start? It started in 2004 in the East Village. How old was I then? I went with my dad, I remember, to the original location, and for my 18th birthday, I went to Coe when Dave was still behind the counter-cooking, but yeah, I just always, I think, and admired what Dave was doing, admired the group, and so I applied for an internship when I was 21. I've been there ever since. How long has that been? 14 years. Okay. So you're figuring out, we're all figuring out the age. When I started working there, Paul was already at Ma Pesh, uptown, so he took her as long as I worked at Momofuku. Nice. And what was your first memory, Paul? Probably just going to Neurobar. Yeah. So Dave, a few months before he opened, we went to this orphans Christmas at a conchie village. Oh, yeah. And then he opened, and we started going there quite often like after work, because remind me of your CV, you're like a WD, you're like a wider deferring, but the WD, and where else did you work? Did you work? Oh, but I worked in so many places. Well, we never worked together before that, but I worked in a lot of places in the park. Yeah. When did you move to New York? You're from where? I'm from Barbados. I moved in '98 or '99. Yeah. That was good. It was cold. I remember. That's the one they remember when moving. I moved here February, and it was freezing. Yeah. It was the first time I ever saw snow. That must be crazy. Yeah. What never had you moved to? The Bronx. I stayed there for about a week and a half before I moved to the CIA. Oh, cool. Yeah. Where was the first restaurant that you worked at in New York? Aquavit. Aquavit. Oh, wow. It's been around for that long? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Aquavit's been around a long time. Marcus was the chef. Yeah. He was like 26 or 27. I want to say. Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot of fun. It was hard. So when did you start working for Mama Fuku? Mama was 2010. 2010. Yeah. And the first one was my past. Was my past. Yeah. We opened my past. So 10, a bunch of us opened my past. That was a journey. I remember my past. The carts. Oh, please. That is. There's a lot of iterations. Yeah. That is the worst of my past. I always like, why does note? For those who don't know, they were trying to do-- maybe you guys can speak to it better, but there was a dim sum cart kind of concepts. But I'm always like, what does no one do that? I mean-- We can tell you. They prefer provisions, that's it, right? Why do you go really well? Why don't people do a dim sum cart? I think-- so we played around with it. I think it's tough. And Paul can speak to us because he had to actually be the person to do it. But you have to essentially-- it's like, bountiful. Yeah. Also, you don't want to waste food. And so there's this push pole of having everything available, having everything on the carts. Also, timestamps is to-- nothing can sit there for that long. Good dim sum, obviously, has this volume that allows everything to stay fresh. And it's all things also that work well-steamed. And so trying to make a variety of food that A, can sit for X hours and be good. And there be enough of it and the right cars and all of that stuff. And also having the setup. I think if your plan was to do that, you built your space around that. I think it could be successful. AKA a state board. Yeah. What did you guys have on the cart? Well, it didn't, we tried the cart. We had a lot of funs. Oh, yeah, funs were really well. We did small plates. We did a lot of things. But I guess I would call out-- so that was one era of my life. Ice cream. Ice cream? Was that ice cream? Yeah, it had an ice cream cart. It was wild, man. But I would say before that, there was this period of Mopash, that so Sue Tran, who is the head of marketing PR, everything at Momo. She's got an office in here. She does, she does, WSF. I remember when I first started. She said Mopash is the best Momofuku restaurant right now. And no one is noticing. And Paul was making unbelievable food. I was just talking to a food critic, who was at one of our restaurants in LA. And he was like, I remember there was this whole fish, which was a porky with the fry bread and the fennel slaw. And it's still so top of mine. Like there were just these amazing dishes that Paul was making. But it was a really weird space, so turning in hard neighborhood, hard, everything. And I just didn't get the credit that Paul had served. I feel like it's a group you guys like to make it hard or anything. Is that a whole thing that you guys do actively? Not anymore. It's like you're always choosing the worst spot. The worst spot. But no one has ever been to that's created basically just for the restaurant and then but not anymore. Not anymore. It's interesting. I think that's exactly right. But it's cool. It's cool. I'll tell you stop making money. So you always have great example of that, where the only restaurant in Sydney, Australia, is the first restaurant outside of Manhattan for the restaurant group. And it was the back corridor of a casino in Sydney, an aging casino. An aging casino across from like a fast casual concept. Yeah, a few things. There was a pastry shop at one point, then like a rice burger shop. I know. At one point they were like, would you mind if a McDonald's went across from you? Did you mind? No. We're not on brand. But it was an exercise and everything stacked against us. And so if we win, you win big, and the restaurant went on to get three hats and just their equivalent kind of of Michelin stars in Australia, or four stars in the times, and they did it. But it was a massive, massive uphill battle. Yeah. But what about Hudson Yards? Hudson Yards. I mean, genuinely one of my favorite restaurants we've ever had. That restaurant was amazing. I went there on my birthday, with the first open. It was incredible. Yeah. That was incredible. Yeah. But yeah, they related basically came to us and said, we're taking back the space to create an office. So now, that entire area that was our restaurant is part of a three-story office complex that was the Neiman markets and all of that, taking over. But yeah, I mean, we liked it. It's like we're on the fourth floor tucked away. Yeah, I think that has been the mentality. I think we're evolving, I think, our logic where, you know, I think there's a lot of restaurants that also take not great deals because, hey, we'll build out this space because it's in a back corridor, or we'll do this for you. But at the end of the day, you're the one who's holding the bag because you have to operate a restaurant there and have it be successful. And so I think a big change in our thinking, especially when I became CEO, is, like, let's pay money if it means the long-term prospects are much better. It's just funny because, like, the original Mama Fuku's, like, the East Village felt like it was such a part of the neighborhood. You know, it was like, they're, like, little neighborhood restaurants and that was kind of a special thing about them, I think, to a lot of people. And then there's, then there's, like, this shift. Yeah. I mean, it's both. I think, you know, opening Kabawa, I think that is very much a neighborhood restaurant. Yeah, very, very. You know, the name of every dog that plays in that alleyway and their owner and, you know, I think that's the beauty, right? And we have a major dome of, there's a guy I met at Friends and Family of our new spot that we just opened that comes every Saturday for lunch. I think we really do have a loyal, kind of, like, local population everywhere that we open restaurants and that's, like, the lifeblood, I believe, of any restaurant. I'm moving to the East Village. so maybe I will be a regular soon. - Welcome. - Can we talk about your neighbor? It's like the store that I'm obsessed with. It's only open for like three hours. Like two, two days a week or something. What is the name of that store? It's everything and there's beautiful. - It's like Natalia, Natalia, or something like that. - It's yeah. - They survived everything. - Every day. - Go for my two to four PM, like three days a week. Thursday and Saturday or something. - It's the greatest. I want to be a part of this. - I know, I really thought you maybe had some insight into what their secret is. - Not at all. - I'm afraid to ask. (laughing) - They sell just like spoons that cost like $200 and like a door knob or whatever. I don't know, I recently got married and I was like this is kind of stuff you put in your little registry. I guess that's what it is. That's probably do online business. (laughing) - Today's episode of Expense Account is brought to you by Silver Oak, a family-owned wine estate that believes every good moment deserves a great bottle. Silver Oak believes celebrations shouldn't wait. They age their wine so each bottle is ready for every moment. - And you know what I love about Silver Oak? - What? - They have a hand in everything they do from growing their own grapes and they even craft their own American oak barrels. - I mean, that's why their America's most iconic Cabernet. It's always rich, expressive and smooth and it's perfect to drink now or you can sell it for later. - Silver Oak, the official wine of Expense Account. - Cheers. - Cheers. - The Expense Account podcast is built in partnership with Substack. I've been spending a lot more time on the Substack app. It's become my favorite escape to scroll productively and it's also where I've built my business. Substack is where I read Lincoln Bio by Rachel Carton to learn what brands are actually doing right on social media and where writers like Jalille Johnson are reinventing real-time fashion reporting. A few weeks ago, I went live with Derek Thompson and it felt like thousands of us were hanging out and talking about the state of parties. Everything for Feed Me lives there too. My daily newsletter, chats about New York City, live videos with pop stars like Audrey Hobart and of course, there's always debates in the comment section. In fact, while I'm here reading this ad to all of you, my readers are talking to each other about where guys on Wall Street have been taking their lunch meetings. Go to Substack.com/Emily to get a free month of Feed Me in the Substack app. - How would you define a Momofuku restaurant? When you're trying to conceptualize a new restaurant like St. Cababa, how do you make sure that it fits into the mold that is Momofuku or what is the mold or the DNA? - Yeah, I can talk maybe just about say about the V1 and I feel like you can talk V2, but V1 was, Dave goes out 2011. The week I started working at Momofuku, everyone was gone in Australia, opening this restaurant. So I was kind of like a solo for a vent. - You were just in Australia. - No, no, I was in the office of the city, but no one else was there. Everyone was busy opening this restaurant and you know, the way that we talked about it was that basically for Australia to accept a Momofuku restaurant. It needs to have the DNA, but DNA only. And then everything else needs to be local. You know, whether it's the chefs that worked there, Ben Greeno was the exec chef. The wine list, everything had to feel like it was for Australians, you know, so basically, which I think Dave is kind of unique in, there was like no pork bun, no this, no that. It was very like, we're not gonna mail it. We're gonna like start from scratch and build this thing. And there were only a few references, like I've been quite smart, the kind of last course before, was it before dessert or was that the very last course? - I think it was the right after dessert. - Yeah, it was like a super candied piece of bosom. - Yeah. - And that was kind of the final bite. And so that was kind of the call back, but everything else was really created with ingredients there. And so I think it's a really good example of, you know, what is a Momofuku restaurant? What are the consistent pieces? And then how can you kind of have the parts come in and out based on who is the chef who's going to be their day in and day out? Dave is one of the first people, I think, to be a celebrity chef of his stature, but also put up his hand and say, I'm not the guy who's at Neutel bar every single day. That's Pablo, right? Or, you know, Paul is obviously Cabawa. But I think, you know, there's a mentality to how do you approach food that I think you and Dave kind of both grew up in, and whether that's via Wiley, whether that's just working in New York City at that time, but the way that I think about it is kind of making the familiar unfamiliar or making, you know, the reverse. So, you know, I think Cabawa does this so effectively where it's exposing an audience who might not be familiar with food from the Caribbean, but doing it in a way where they want to try it, kind of want to kind of expand their palate, but without it being a lecture. And if they're doing it, it's delicious. And that's at the end of the day, what matters? So, we do a lot of dishes at the restaurants where, you know, you might see it and say, hey, I've had something like this before, but it's, you know, the flavors might be different, or you might see something that looks totally unfamiliar and take a bite of it and say, oh, this tastes exactly like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so, I think what Paul you're doing is obviously so not the same, but at the same time kind of captures a lot of that. And I think, you know, when Dave opened Neutel bar in 2004, people familiarity with ramen, people familiarity with those flavors was unbelievably different than it is today, kind of in the same way I would say of like, what Paul's doing is the forefront of what in 25 years might become common. - I mean, I guess not too interrupt, but something for me that I think about with Mama Fuku as a group or like as a overarching project is like, I feel like American food, but via immigrants. Like it's all about making American food, using all these flavors from, it could be Caribbean flavors or it could be Japanese flavors, or Korean flavors, Chinese flavors, but making it into American food, or whatever American food means, but. - So, yes, that's all said. - I know, yes. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, but a really good example is, so in 2004 when Neutel bar opened, the about us was A, Neutel bar is an American restaurant. - Yeah. - Day one. - Yeah. - And two, there was a quote from Wolfgang Pock's cookbook. I think from like 1986, that is essentially, to paraphrase, like America is diversity into unity. Like why shouldn't food be the same? And so I think there's very much this, you know, and for the CPG company, the Mama Fuku goods products, we always say that we wanna redefine the American pantry. - Yeah. - Because what even is the American pantry? - Yeah, what was mustard? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And pasta sauce, right, was like, in the ethnic aisle, until 30 years ago, right? And so we're really interested in like that evolution and what it can be and how Mama Fuku can kind of like, help push that forward. - I guess to rewind a little bit, to ask Paul, when you were conceptualizing Kabawa, you guys were doing it together. What were the discussions like and how to fit Kabawa into like the framework of Mama Fuku? Or did you have, you must have had some kind of like, I mean, that's where co-used to be, so you have some big shoes to feel like. - Yeah, the beauty about Kabawa is that margarit and Dave fully trusted me. - Yeah, it feels that way, really. - Yeah, it fully trusted me. I'm also the person that I, that you hold big shoes thing. - Yeah. - I just can't relax. - You're very relaxed. - Yeah, because I come from a place where I'm like, hey, these are four walls and there was something in there before a call and there was something in there before that and while call did amazing things and had incredible people working there, I would fail if I wanted to be, if all that was going through my head is like, I need to be better than this. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So for me, doing anything in my life and any single thing is just like one step at a time, you want a foot in front of the other and you try to just be the best that you could be. - I mean, it feels very self-confident. Like, it's like, it's very much, it's like a very unique restaurant in New York City. You wouldn't think that it would be, right? Like, it's food of a diaspora that I feel like there's so many Caribbean people and I don't know, it's so unique. I mean, it's not, it's your cooking is obviously amazing. Look, I just think for me and Cabawa, the entire thing was, you know, years ago in the '90s, it was this like clothing brand called Fubu. - Oh, yeah, of course. - Right? - Yeah. - That was my whole thinking book about. - Yeah. - Like, I wanted to build something for my people and have it be, I don't want to use the word authentic, but I wanted it to be, to feel like it's for them. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the flavors are bold. Like, the goat with the shrimp, with the dried shrimp sauce, it's like-- - The scallop, right scallop. - Oh, scallop. - Yeah, it's like spicy and very like pungent. It's like, I was really taken aback by that dish in like a really special way. Like, it's rare that I get like smacked in the face by like a new flavor like that. I feel like so many restaurants are afraid to like take a swing like that. that was like one of my favorite. in my favorite dishes I ate this year. - Thank you. - Yeah. - You know, I was talking to someone with my crew and I was like, it's very like putting it all together. Well, I'm not gonna lie, it was scary. Because like, I know the formula, I've been in this industry for a long time. - Yeah. - I know the formula that works. - Yeah, right. And to purposefully be like, I'm just gonna do something that I want to do that represents my region in a way that's like whole. 'Cause like, that's how we eat in all fairness, you know? And like, it was a bit scary because like at the end of the day, I came here to do a job and I wanna be able to perform that job at a high level, right? And it's all well and good to cook cool food. But we run a business and I really want business to shine and succeed, you know? And I want, you know, at the end of the day, Margarine and Dave to be like, yeah, we made a good choice. - Well, I mean, you and I had a convo. And Paul was on Australian time. I was usually here. And so we would chat at like nine or 10 PM, my time, you're getting to the-- - It was on a little worker. - On a way to work. And at one point, I think you said, Paul, you're like, thanks for taking a bet on me. I was like, well, if this is a bet, it's a pretty good bet. Like, you currently run like the number one restaurant in Australia. I've worked with you for 14 years. I was like, yeah, let's do this, you know? And I think, you know, for us, it was really like giving Paul the platform, yeah, and not, for example, like saying, oh, no, like, but don't do that, you know? And I think also like the thing that's really important, I think you would say too, is it's like the amount of time that you've spent in the industry, the perspective that you have because of that. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like that is the difference between like a 28-year-old being like, I'm gonna have my own place, and it's gonna be so sick, and I'm gonna make food, I wanna cook. And Paul, who's like, oh no, I've seen this movie so many times before, and I know-- - He's done it in some car. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - No damn some car's a cabal. - Ooh, maybe, maybe. - Maybe fun, like a little roti car or something. I don't know. - But yeah, you know, for cabal was just like this whole thing where it's funny, building that space out, food was the last thing I thought about. - Really? Yeah, what was the first thing? - Oh man, like, pink. - Figuring out like the space. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That space is so uniquely cold. - Yeah. - It literally was built from one thing. - Yeah. - You know, and how do I make that one thing into our thing, you know? Everything down to the height of the tables. Where the chairs are gonna be and the color is in, the warmth of the color is like, I have never nerded out about color theory so much. Like, you just go into the shop and be like, oh, this green is not your green. This green, you know, but, and then food came. Like, I knew like a structure. I want like the structure that I think would work for the business. But actually, like, what's gonna be on the menu? That, that came pretty late in the piece. - But you've been thinking about Kabawa your whole life? Like, is this like the thing that you? - Don't have to say that you have. - No, I haven't been thinking about Kabawa my whole life. I've been thinking about opening a space that represented and honored the Caribbean for a very long time. I would say it from my 20s. - Well, I mean, Dave, what do I say? - It wasn't your like, thesis at that DCIA was about like, Caribbean food. But, you know, like for me, that took a lot of time, right? I cook for a lot of people. - Yeah. - I did what it was told for a long time. And then I was given the opportunity working with Wiley to learn how to be creative. I think creativity is a muscle you've got to exercise and working at WD really helped with that. And then, you know, all the little mystery. There's a lot of mistakes I made over time. You know, and then, I think what really happened for me was in Sydney, it had it all to do with maturity. Like a lot of things just aligned. - Yeah. - I started to feel very confident with who I was as a person. - Yeah. - I think that's important. And I felt comfortable in my own skin. And I wanted to do the things that made me feel joy, right? And when that started to happen, I think things really turned around for me and my, like, creativity, you know? 'Cause it's kind of like being a friend, right? Like if you don't like yourself, you really can't truly like other people. And you can't be a good friend. So like you got to kind of be good to you, to be good to others. And I think I got to a point in Sydney where it was just like, oh, I need to be good to me. - That's amazing, but you were by yourself or-- - Yeah, I was-- - I was like, have you been to Australia before? - I went to Australia to do an event with Dave. So like one time in the year of the year, 2011, which was quite fun, and so all of your family lived here and most of them. - My family lives in Barbados. - Okay, but it's a time difference over there. Right now they're our head. - Okay, so it's similar. - Is when you go to Australia and my girlfriend's from Perth, I'm a wife, and she-- - It's 12 hour time difference, so it's like, she'll really alone sometimes. You have like a few hour time window when you can actually talk to people on the phone. - Yeah, I'm not afflicted with that. (laughing) - Like my older, like friends is my older brother. - Yeah. - He's the one that like needs to be in contact. I'm the one that like-- - I'm happy being a wife. - I'm glad that actually. I never, I mean, I'm out of town and never call my wife. (laughing) But the food in Australia is also like incredible. How were you able to adapt your kind of cooking to like the ingredients in this Australian general? - Australia for me was quite fun. - Yeah. - Adapting, I really didn't adapt. - Yeah. - I just-- - Just get all the ingredients there. - Yeah, wow. - Because-- - That are accessed in New York City or Charlotte. - Like Australia's huge, and there's so many different climates. - Yeah. - In Queensland, it's tropical. - Yeah. - And when it decided to do what I wanted to do was just a matter of sourcing. Obviously things taste a little bit different, but they're not so far different than, you know, you gotta like switch. - Yeah. - I tell people this all the time we're cooking. Cooking's cooking. And as long as you are present, and you can make micro adjustments when you need to make up. - Yeah. - And then it's just about like constantly being present. And I think that's where really separates good cooks in average cooks and great cooks. You know, is that ability to be just present and mindful? - Yeah. - I know it sounds fru-fru, but it's true. - Yeah, you're very present. - Yeah, and it's not dissimilar like all, like Moifu restaurants, you know, for the most part have all had open kitchens. - Yeah. - And the logic of that, I mean, A, obviously, it's adds energy, it adds engagement, but also we always say it's like, it's also said that the team, especially the back of house, can see people eating and can see like what's going over, what's not, like how are dishes coming back? Are there certain portions that no one's touching? And it's like that kind of awareness and attention to detail and being present and kind of not just putting your head down, making the same thing a hundred times. If a hundred times coming back, no one's touching the sauce, whatever. And so for us, it's very much about kind of being in the moment and being able to adapt and learn as we go. - I agree. And to all people there that work in open kitchens, you still actually have to do that. Like, yeah, you know, you still actually have to like, actively be present and care for the people around you. - Yeah. - The people you don't even know, you know? - Yeah. I mean, I've always been like, I don't know if I'd like, hate to work in open kitchens like, you get a stain on your shirt or something, it changed your shirt. So like everyone's watching here. - And that's why we were tied up. - I don't like you present. (laughing) I mean, the staff at Kabawa was awesome. Everyone, like all the, what do you call them, the people that like, like I said, the cooks. - Cooks. (laughing) - They're all, I don't know. They all like seem like they could be like your friend. Not even that your server, your people that work at restaurant should be your friend, but they actually all seem like, like they care about your service. - Yeah, because that's a big part of Kabawa. - Yeah. - There are a few things where I'm constantly preaching. One, I'm always saying, make one friend a day. - And that's me. - And not like all exchange numbers or, but just be kind and be attentive and connect with one person a day. Two, be yourself, you know. I definitely, it is important for me that people could be themselves in that space, you know. And I feel very privileged to have such a cool crew. - Yeah, you know. This current crew of ours is the best we've had and I feel really good about it. And the cooks that we hire, I tell them cooking is 50% of your job. - Yeah. - You know, at least the people that work during service, like service time, 50% is cooking, you know. 20% is service and 30% is a good attitude. - Yeah. - You know, or even I'd say 50, 30, 20. - Yeah, yeah. - So 20 is like you are actually serving people, right? And then 20% is just having a good attitude and like being present. - Yeah. - And that's literally part of my interview because a lot of people come in and they see it and then being actually in it's very different. I'm like, yeah. The reality is is that you're gonna be in front of somebody that's gonna ask you questions. And some people are gonna ask you a lot of questions. And some of those questions are gonna be annoying. But you gotta facilitate and be a part of that journey for that person because you don't know, right? Like people come in to dinner in all sorts of moods, for all sorts of reasons. And it's not your job to know all those reasons, but it's your job to like take people through a journey and their own dream, you know? Yeah, I mean, I guess what I was trying to say in too many words is that everyone has a great vibe. And it's clear that you hire them for that. - Gabawa is a vibe restaurant, right? - Yeah, it's very vibey. - I think it's vibe is, but it's also like kindness. - Yeah. - And I think that that's almost the rarer of the two. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like vibes, not hard to come by, but more restaurants and I think what Gabawa does a little different is it's truly like that warmth, right? And that making a friend inviting people in, and I think a lot of the reviews kind of hit on this, it's like, that's the rarity, especially in New York City. That's like why people dine out. I mean, especially post-pandemic, you know, I think that, you know, tough economic times, whatever it is, you know, people are looking for, it's like we talk about all the time, like an experience, right? Like if you're going to spend the dollars, if you're gonna go, you know, to your anniversary, to your birthday, whatever it is, you know, that's the difference maker, and like our competitive advantage. - Yeah. - In addition to the food being awesome. - Yeah, so what comes next after Gabawa? How do we, how do we follow that up? - So it's an interesting, like, to the question you asked earlier of like, have you been dreaming of Gabawa? Like, Gabawa on a lot of ways was almost like a result of restraint, right? Like we have this space, okay, it needs to be a set menu because that's what works there. This is the number of seats, et cetera. But I feel like, you know, you and I've talked about like, if it was truly just a white box, like four walls, it can be anything, you know, I don't know if it necessarily would have been Gabawa. - Yeah. - It would have been something different. And so I think what's fallen is now like, okay, great. We did that. There's still so much, I always say, like, you know, we're not even a year in. - Yeah. - There's so much work to do with that. - Yeah, yeah. - Like, I mean, right now you guys are working on a private dining room. That's next door, you know, that's a whole thing, you know, - It's gonna be beautiful. - It's gonna be beautiful. And so, you know, restaurants to me aren't done when they open. They're done like a year, two years, three years, five years. It's like the constant evolution to make it what you intended it to be. And so we still have like a bunch of that work at Gabawa in my opinion. So I think that's one. And then two, I think it's, you know, I think the amazing thing is, you know, also all of this happened for a lot part. You know, as I said, like, Paul and I on a phone, kind of going back and forth. Now that you're physically here, amazing. (laughing) We, you know, actually can have conversations around like, all right, like, let's go look at spaces. Let's go have these conversations and figure out whatever this guy wants to do next. We're happy to support. - What do you wanna do next? (laughing) - This restaurant took a lot out of me. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard to think about the next one after you just, yeah, I mean, like right now, for me, the most important thing is getting the bar and Gabawa restaurant like humming and proper. I, you know, we're in a good place, but I have that sort of personality. I guess it's probably white day when I connect. We're never ever happy with anything. - We express ourselves very differently, but at our core. (laughing) - It is very similar where something might be great and in front of you and you're just always trying to tweak and make it better, you know. And I think Gabawa could be a lot better. And the bar could be better. And we just gotta keep pushing. Nice. So I guess getting to work the end, and usually at the end, I do this thing where we do like a shout out. So I'll start and I'll do one and then you do one. And then you do one and then I'll do one. Yeah, so the first thing I'm gonna shout out is my wife, she made her wedding dress. We got married recently. - Oh wow. - And she did a whole wedding capsule collection. It's at this place called Noel Object, gauntlet chain at Noel Object, it's a gallery. And then you can see all of the wedding dresses she made and they're really like actually very beautiful. I'm pretty moved by them and that's just 'cause she's my wife. They're beautiful. So go to Noel Object, that's my first shout out. - Oh, I can't top that. I was thinking about this. I think something, and this kind of goes back to what we were talking about like hospitality and kindness, et cetera. I've been very recently into phone reservations, restaurants that only do phone. 'Cause it's like an actual conversation. You're like, oh, they'll be like, we can do it, but you have to be out by this time. Like there's a little bit more of a like give and take. And right now I feel like we're at this like crazy point with reservations where it's spread across all these different platforms and you know, they're snacked up like, you know, ha's your hat. Like to just be all gone like. And so the ability to like get on a phone and talk to someone and have that is, I don't know, I think we're gonna come full circle in some ways. - If you need a reservation at Kabawa, call, maybe. (laughs) - Son of a bitch. (laughs) - I don't think it is zero phone, but I personally like fun. - But you guys do do phone at Kabawa, right? - So it's like, if you call, they'll call you back, but it's not like you call and someone's like, hello. You know what you can like. - I'm never so annoying to have to answer the phone. - There was a restaurant in Sydney that had no platform. - No platform. - Like no platform, no seven rooms, no open rooms. - Yeah, and a cool way or an annoying way. - There was one of my favorite restaurants, but getting a reservation there. It was also small. You had to call or send an email and then you just had to like wait. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Because most of the times they want to pick up. - Yeah. - Then you just had to wait and for them to respond. - Have you ever tried to make a reservation at Dom Pepe's? - No. - It's like the best, like you call and we don't take reservations and then right before you hang up, they're like, okay, hold on. - I want to try that. - What are you thinking? - Then you like have a, like, I don't need to try that. It just like, you stress me out. - It's so good. - It's just more canole, okay, win. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You're in this place, this place, Hori? - What's it called? - Hori. It's like a two hands hospitality place, but it's like a eight seat Isakaya and it's like you can't make a, you have to be referred to make a, but they, I guess they just use resi and you can just use resi, but you have to, you have to be, they have a special list on resi. - Got it, got it, got it. - Okay, I got it. - I understand. - There's always like a Upper East Side restaurants, like these Italian spots, like L.O.s. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Promole was that it's like you have to call. - Yeah, yeah. - And that it's a total paper book. Like, it's. - They're not gonna like my voice. (laughing) Like, I'm gonna call in there and be like, not this guy. (laughing) - That's so fun. - My shout out, I'm gonna, this is gonna be real random. - Yeah. - I wanna shout out to my boy, C.B. Sylbozky. - C.B. Sylbozky. - Yeah, from Marvel Comics. - Oh, I follow him on Instagram. - Yeah. - Yeah. I've always wondered what that guy's deal is 'cause he's always eating at the best restaurants. - Oh, he's. - And then he's supposed to do it as something I never knew on Earth. - He's the Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Comics. - Yeah. - And like Momo, regular for, you know, probably all 21 years. - Yeah, so cool. - Yeah, I was, I've always wondered about him 'cause I've been following him for a while. - Oh, the best. - So cool. What a cool life. - You go on, when he's such a nice person. - Yeah. - So C.B. Lodz soon, bro. - My shout out is for Cat Hariman. It's our friend, and she sent us this box of chocolates and it's by this company called Altman and Koon. I'd never heard of it. It's like a little box of chocolates that it opens up into three tiers and it's like little bitty chocolates that like they're like the size of bugs, but they're all like wrapped up really beautifully. And I don't know, it's just such a treat. It's like the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And so you just sent it to my wife's office like it's a random like congrats for getting married gift. And I'm like, this is the nicest, most fun gift that I've ever got. Yeah. - That's it. Thanks for listening guys. Cheers. - Expense account is the production of Feed Me in partnership with Public Sound and Substack. Our executive producers are Emily Sunberg Jason Conlet and Ryan Woodhall. Our associate producer is Camille Fettet. Our audio engineer is Luke Moldoff. Our video editor is Izzy Cross, and our graphic designer is Justin Sloan. Expense account is recorded at WSA NYC. For more episodes, visit us at www.substek.com. See you next week. [BLANK_AUDIO]