Mom vs. Dogfish

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233-4-support. Happy Dating Detective's Monday! You caught Hannah! You're coming to Florida! I know! Next week we have two live shows in Florida. No, this week! Oh my god, you're right. We're recording this. Oh, take that out. Take that out. This week, we're recording it early, but you're right. It's this Wednesday and this Thursday, you, you're going to be, you're better. You guys, we're, we're going to be in Florida, which I already am in Florida, but Molly and Hannah are not and so they're coming to Florida so we can present to you a live show Wednesday night in Orlando and then we're going to be in Tampa on Thursday night and so it's going to be so much fun. We're going to be at the funny bone in Orlando on Wednesday night, the funny bone in Tampa on Thursday night. If you come to the Tampa show, Mama Barbie will be there, so my mom will be there, my family. So you get to meet the freedom fam. If you come to the Orlando show, Mama Hannah will be there and I think my dad's coming. Oh my god. I know. You guys, this is going to be so much fun. But either way, come either night, you'll see me and Hannah. I'm just so excited to come to your stopping grounds and also if you're wondering what the show is like, we just did one in Chicago and we've done one in LA before and it's so fun. Not only do we get to hear a Mackenzie undercover story that has not been shared before. We do Q&A with all of you. We talk to you about your dogfish stories. If there's anyone in the audience that wants to share their story, we gab and I do stand up and we laugh and cry and hug and wave red flags because we give everybody red flags so you can be part of the stories. That is so fun. I love the red flags. They are just so funny with seeing them in the crowd. It's really awesome and it's very interactive. I think my favorite thing though is that if you come, you can meet other people who listen to the dating detectives and if you have somebody who's going through a dogfish situation and perhaps they need to hear a little dogfish motivation to get out of it or something to say, hey, come to this show with me. This is going to be really cool. Somebody show a little true crime thing. We encourage our listeners to be like, hey, if you have somebody that you need to give the hint to, but don't know how, say, hey, oh my gosh, you have to listen to this new podcast. It might register with them. Anyways, we hope to see you either way. We're really excited. I feel like that was a good transition into today's story. Unfortunately, this is an episode about a dogfish case that is still going on. So here's what we have for you today, and it's different than anything we've had before. We have Diana, and she is the mother of a woman named Sophie who is currently being dogfished. Diana is awesome. You're going to love her. She used to be a licensed private investigator, and she writes mystery novels now. Her brain works in a very cool investigative kind of way. Yes. And she talks about how that's a pro and a con. You guys have such interesting conversations because you're both PIs and both moms. And I think you should make sure you stick around for all of this episode because there's so much to talk about. And if you've ever known someone who's in a dogfish relationship, or even just any kind of abuse relationship or a relationship that you know is hurting them, and you've tried to navigate how to support that person. We know there's no right way to do it. And we talk about that. Like it's so hard. There really isn't. How do you navigate it? So we'll get into it with Diana. And as always, join our Patreon if you want more discussion, more episodes. It's $5 a month. There's so many excess things that you get when you're in Patreon. And then if you join the $9 a month girlfriend experience, you get everything plus ad free listening. So you can listen to this episode and every episode without ads on Patreon. Yeah. And we, by the way, super, super appreciate you. As Patreoners, we appreciate all of our listeners. We just really appreciate your support. We're so grateful for you. So thank you. We're grateful. Thank you. And we're excited to meet all of you at the live show. Joey, let's get into it. Diana, we are so glad that you're here. Thank you for being here and being on the show and writing into us. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk with you and tell you my story. Oh, well, we don't know your story, but we do know that you're a different sort of guest than we normally have. You are the mother of someone being dogfist. Yes. Yes. I am. I am there. My mama heart is already like, oh, boy. Yeah. So my name is Diana. I am a former paralegal and a former private investigator. Oh, yeah. Another PA. Yes. I live in your world. I know. That's amazing. So the situation is my daughter is with a person, a man who is currently. Oh, boy. This is an ongoing unfolding situation. Oh, no. So my daughter and I have been very, very close. You know, she needs something. She makes a phone call. I am there. No matter what, two in the morning, she calls me up. I have a flat tire on the side of the road. I get my butt out of bed and I go and I change a flat tire on the side of the road. That's just what a mama does. Yeah. Right. Yep. So at the time this began, she was 29 and she's 31 now. So she's not a young 21-year-old that hasn't had any living under her best. She's also scutted green biology. She's very, very smart. She's extremely kind, very kindhearted, very trusting. Sometimes a little too trusting, but you know, I was the same way. She's very empathetic. She loves animals. She's just that that girl. She's gorgeous. I mean, she's really got everything. She's literally my hero. I just, I love her so, so much. I can't even tell you. So the one thing, she hasn't had great luck in the dating. I feel like, and I heard this on your podcast, which it literally abel one off, you had a young lady that was on that described herself as a fixer. That is it. That is it. That is it. It's that resonated with me for her because her empathy is like, oh, well, maybe I can help or, you know, whatever. So she hasn't had the best luck. So she comes over when we're having dinner and and she says, oh, I met this guy and I said, okay, tell me about him. So she's like, I met him at this furry where we hang out and she says she met this new bartender and he was a little bit older, but it was nice and but he was very persistent with her. She said every time they went there, he was just very persistent. Just have dinner with me. Just, you know, so it took a while, but then she comes home. She tells me I agreed to go and have dinner with him and he was making me dinner at his place. But when she described him to me, she said, well, he's a little bit older and I'm thinking, well, older, what does that mean? You know, right. And so I asked her, I'll have old disease. She said, he's 40. So I said, okay, because at the time she's 29 and I'm thinking, oh, you know, somehow that does feel like a bigger difference. It feels feels like a big difference. And so anyway, she's telling me about him. He's very nice. He made her a great dinner. He's a really good cook. And so she tells me, I really want you to meet him. So my great. But I'm also thinking, let me check this person out, you know? Yeah, yeah. Right. So she tells me there's a comedy show up at one of the local breweries and wanted to invite you. So I said, okay, great. I'll be there. So I go up to this brewery and there's a lot of people around. It's a it's a comedy night thing. And so there's people everywhere. And they put a couple tables together. And I see a lot of her friends who I know. So I'm hanging out chat with her friends. And I'm looking around because this guy's supposed to be there. And I'm thinking, where is he? And so so if he comes up to me and she says, I said, is is Mark here? And she said, yeah, he's around here somewhere. And I do not know who he is. There's a lot of people there. But all of a sudden, my gut is starting to speak mom tuition mom tuition. Yes. And I didn't know why. At this point, I do not know why. So I'm just now I'm feeling a little uneasy. Something's wrong. And I'm looking around and I don't know who this one person is. And I'm thinking, hmm, wonder if that's that's the guy. She comes back over. She hangs out with me. And I said, well, where is he? She's like, well, he's a little nervous in my head. Wait a minute. You tell me this guy's 40 and he's nervous to meet your mother. Are you kidding me? Yeah, he should have been out his hand out stretch to shake your hand when he walked in. As soon as I walked in, right? 100%. And I'm like, is it me? When then the show starts. And then as soon as the show's over, I was like, so do I get to meet him? And she's like, oh, he had to leave. What? I was invited there to meet him and never met him. So I left. And I'm driving home. And now my gut is literally screaming. Yeah. It's wrong, right? no matter where we go from here, that is not a moment you will ever forget, because why would she bring me up there if he had no intention of meeting? You know, it just none of it made sense to me. How long had they been dating at this point? Maybe a month? Okay. It wasn't all that long, but she did say that they were hanging out a lot. And I asked her when she said, "I think he's just nervous." And I'm thinking, "Okay, I don't get it." But okay, so then they're coming down to where I live to listen to music at a little place on the water. So she's like, "Hey, do you want to come by? We're all going to be there." The whole group of friends is coming. So I say, "Okay, yeah, I'll stop in." So I go there and they're all standing around and I go up. And now I recognize him as the same guy, right? He never met him yet. Well, he turns around and he leaves. And I'm thinking, "What is happening right now?" Wait, leaves like the group or leaves the venue? No, no, he just went, I think he went to the men's room or the bar. As soon as I walk up, he literally just left. I don't even know if he didn't even look at me. So it was hell with them. So now I'm really, really, my senses are just in overdrive. What is going on with this guy? So again, I didn't meet him. And is your daughter saying anything about it? What I said, I said, Sophie, what's happening right now? And she's like, I don't know. I think he's just really nervous. And I'm not buying it. Not buying it. My gut is yelling at me. I don't have any idea what's going on. So I'm obviously concerned and wondering maybe what has she told him about me? Because if he's avoiding me, maybe she told him something that has him avoiding me. Not really sure what it would be. But, you know, I was a PI and I'm a mystery writer. So I didn't know maybe she told him I was a mystery writer and he was afraid of that. I don't really know. And I still don't know because I've never really asked her about that. Because we moved on to bigger and better things, which you'll find out here in a minute. Really quick. Let's talk about sex guys. Arya is here and wants you to have better sex with your partner. And you know what? We have the dating detectives. Agree. But a lot of times if you feel like you need to spice it up, it's hard to have that conversation. But Arya is here to turn up the heat in your bedroom. Arya is an intimacy membership for couples bringing your spark back with a personal intimacy concierge. And curated products delivered each month. So I decided because I have to check these things out before I send them your way. And I think this is a really interesting and good idea. So you start with a short quiz to find your erotic persona and kind of gets an idea of what you like, what you don't like. 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You said you mentioned he has a birthday coming up wins his birthday where he grew up. Some different places that he's lived. This is great. Tell me about his parents. Does he have brothers and sisters. You know, he's 40. Does he have any previous relationships that he's mentioned really trying to get as much information as I possibly can. Because when I start my investigation, you need to know that you're investigating the correct person. So you need a few breadcrumbs. She's speaking my language. Yes, girl. Oh, yeah. So you need a few breadcrumbs to make sure that, okay, this is the guy, right? So anyway, we have a wonderful evening. And she's fine with these questions. She's like, oh, she is so excited to share all this because now she's like, he's so wonderful to me and he's everything I've ever dreamed of. And I'm like, whoa, slow it down. This is two months in, girl. I worry when someone jumps in that fast, you know, the next morning I get up and I am on it. Now, because I'm not a PI anymore, I no longer have the tools of the trade to get me where I need to go as fast as I would like to get there. But I still know how to slute the old fashioned way. I was going to say this is even better because you can share with our audience illegal ways. Yes, research. It's research. It's research. So I start out with the court records from the state that he is from. And I am shocked, but not shocked because my gut told me I shouldn't be shocked. So I get these court records. And if not all states are available with their court records online. Sometimes you have to go and pay a fee to get the information or whatever. You have to write an affidavit like why you want the information. Yes. Who are you? You related to this case. Yes. Absolutely. So I felt like first when I got in, I was like, yes. Like I'm in. So then I start searching. And now I'm like, oh, my goodness. Oh, bless it. Here we go. So we're good. We're going deep now. So first I find a rest records for theft. Various types of theft. So credit card theft and court records have minimal information. And they have a case number. So now I'm thinking, okay, I'm writing down. And I'm writing all this down. And I have my printer hot and ready to roll. And I'm keeping track of all this. So there's various records of theft from different things. And then I go a little bit further and I'm looking at court records, property records, social media, and various other public databases that you can find information. I'm trying to figure out I'm trying to pay in a picture of who this person is as a whole from the first time they're online really, you know. And so I find a conviction for theft. It was property under a thousand dollars, but there was a guilty plea. How far back in time do these go? So this is 2013. So you know, 10 years, it's pretty good. Yeah. And they, you know, I mean, there's more. I'm going to get ahead of myself. I'm trying to say, tell us like manageable as you're, you know, googling or whatever it is. So when you see these theft court records, first of all, come up like, so you were saying you weren't as shocked as. Well, my, I was, I was horrified for my daughter because I know she didn't know about any of this. And I think it's important. So when you find continued deception, continued violations, you're now you're putting together a pattern of behavior. So as an investigator, when you're investigating someone, that's what you're trying to do because to, to paint the whole picture, you're following the breadcrumbs and you're creating a pattern of behavior. Because if something happens once, anybody could say it was an accident. I didn't know. Right. But more than once for the same type of crime as a pattern. So now I'm establishing a pattern here. So there were several things that made me uneasy as a mom. So I continue my search. And Sophie had told me when I had asked her. She had said that he had been married once and was divorced and had one child. Okay. So I'm expecting to find a marriage, the divorce and one child. somewhere, right? But in my search, I discover the marriage and divorce, then a paternity test for one child, and then another paternity test, and it had different dates on it for a different child. How do you have access to a paternity test? It was in the court records because it was like a court-ordered paternity. It was a court-ordered paternity test. He wanted to make sure that he was the father, so both paternity tests showed him as the father of these two children. And there was court appearances for the women trying to get their child support. So now he's got two additional kids and he's not paying child support. If they have to keep taking him to court to get child support, he's not paying it. We don't have my kids total. There's three kids total. Three kids total. Now my daughter thinks there's one, and she's met the one. Oh wow. Yes, but she does not know about any of this. So of course, print print print, I need all of this, and it's court records. So this is not like you can deny this, right? Now is she someone who understands that you do research and she knows, "Oh, that's my mom." Or would she be shocked to find out that you had done this? No, no, she wasn't shocked. She wasn't shocked. I think she didn't understand why I needed to. You know, because he was so wonderful. But. Well, this is why. This is where some gaps in the story. So now I find out there's three children. There's not one. I make a note of both of the mom's names because there will be more investigating when I'm ready for that. Also, he has trouble keeping jobs. So I was unable to find any job where he was there for more than two years, and most of them it wasn't even that long. Wow. And of course, when I did the background check and found out about the child's support, if you can't find someone, you can't garnish their wages. That was kind of explained why he's job jumping to me. And then I do a property record search because I had been told that he owned a condo, which is where she went to dinner, and that he was planning on selling it so he could buy them a nice big house. So I have the address of the condo. I know it's the correct address because I confirmed it. And so I'm searching property records. And I find the property, but it's not his name on it. It is the name of a woman and her father. And his name is not on it at all. So I print that out. I make note of her name and her dad's name. And I decide to search to see what I can find on Nicole, who is on the property. So I'm like, who is this? And what's, you know, what's going on with him saying that he owns this when he clearly doesn't. So I find some social media posts and he is confessing his love to her. And yeah, saying, you know, how much he loves her. And it wasn't that long ago. So interesting, interesting. He had told my daughter that he was not seeing this woman anymore. But he was living in the condo. She went there for dinner one time. Well, where did she go? Yeah, so I asked her about this. I asked Sophie. I said, okay, so where is she now? And she said she moved into town with friends. And I'm thinking, okay, this doesn't make sense to me because she's got a child. So you want to move into town with friends when you have a child? I don't know. So that's also another question that I have in my head. Also, when I was checking these records, I discovered that he lied about his age. No, he's older. No, he's younger. So he was 40. I am telling you, he said he was 40. He was at the time 37. Okay. So what's the point? Exactly. I looked at this and I said, why would you need to do that? So now I'm thinking, okay, I got a criminal record, pathological liar. I mean, he lied about his age, he lied about owning the condo, he lied about his relationship status, and he lied about how many kids he had. So I'm not making notes of all this because at some point, I'm going to need to talk to my daughter about it and get some answers. And how much time has gone on since you started your investigation? At this point, we're still at about two months. This is still early on, which is good because I'm thinking, okay, this has not been with him forever and I'm not going to, this is, I've been with him for a minute. And seeing the records, how could you not believe it's true, right? This show is sponsored by Better. You guys have heard me talk about Better Help for a really long time, but I don't know that we've ever actually talked about how much people actually love the service when they use it. If you go to betterhelp.com/reviews, you'll see the amazing customer reviews in real time. 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You answer a few questions, get matched with a therapist based on your needs, see the reviews, see what stands out, and see if Better Help is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com/that'sbetterhtlp.com/tDD. So now we're approaching my daughter's 30th birthday. He has now moved to another nearby state to take a job and he's living with a friend. No idea who this is. My daughter doesn't know who this is, but he tells her that it's an old friend and there were a lot of different stories about this new place that he was moving. It was supposed to be her new brewery that she was opening and he was going to go helper, but that story changed. So the long-time friend is a woman? The long-time friend is a woman. Yeah, okay, cool. That's right. And that story changed several times because I said I thought this was his friend's brewery. Oh no, he decided that he would work here instead. So I'm thinking all of that was something he told her and she doesn't know how to explain all of these changes because she really can't explain them. And I don't, I would be questioning this, but she wasn't. Yeah, I'm trying to imagine you having these conversations with her. Like how are you keeping, are you, you know, it's hard to watch someone be with a dogfish. It's hard to just sit by. Like how are you navigating that emotion? It is. I am, I am spending a lot of time biting my tongue and I'm trying to ask her pointed questions because if you ask someone a pointed question, you know, he owns this condo. Tell me about that. And now they have to explain this. And then when you say, well, what if I told you or what if I showed you this was inaccurate? Now their brain has to work to say, oh my gosh, how is this not true? So when I speak to my daughter, especially in this circumstance, I'm asking her pointed questions because I want her to say it back out loud to me what she said so that they can come to the decision themselves. And that's hard. Exactly. And, and so I, I would say to her, let me ask you a question, does that make sense to you? And now I want her to answer me. I was trying to deliver this in a soft way. So she asks me to join her for this trip. And I'm questioning why exactly. And she said, because I want the two people I love the most to get to know each other. So of course, I'm mom, I step up. Fine. Let's do this. Does he know you're coming? Apparently he does. Okay. Yeah. So we drive four or five hours to get there. And we go to the hotel, get checked in. And then she said, we're going to go to the brewery where he works. And then we'll go out to dinner or something after. So he's off work now. And when we walk in, he's sitting against the wall on his phone. And we walk in. And he looks up and looks at my daughter. And I did not see any spark from him. I felt almost like I was not [BLANK_AUDIO] understanding how she was so excited because he did not seem to be. So he looks up at her and she goes over and she gives him a kiss and sits down next to him and they're talking and and I walk up and naturally literally feeling like an afterthought for him especially but even my daughter because she's now talking him and so she's like, hey, you know my mom and I'm thinking no, no we skipped that part. Well, he he goes back and looks at his phone. So he was hitting me. I am not does not even acknowledge me. I am literally not there, but he doesn't even say hello. He said hi, but it was like, hey, like uninterested now I'm a little upset and now I'm a little upset with my daughter because now I'm being dragged into something and now I feel a little bit used. She's not recognizing like, hey, talk to my mom. She's talking right. I be so mad at him. She is. I'm starting to wonder if she's still my daughter. That's kind of how I'm feeling. I'm feeling like she's not understanding her behavior and I'm concerned. And now I have a folder that when we were on our drive, I said to her, when we stopped, can I share some things with you. And she said, I don't want to know anything now. I don't want to ruin my birthday weekend. Let's just talk after my birthday and you can tell me whatever you want. So I promise her that I'll keep my mouth shut. And it was the hardest I ever. I bet. So now we're at the brewery. I am literally walking around the brewery, talking to strangers that have dogs because I'm a dog lover. Right. And they're sitting over at the bar drinking beers and he's drinking a lot. Oh, so I'm now I'm watching this and I'm like, there's no way my kids getting in the in the car with them. So I tell her, when we get ready to leave, I want you to come with me. We're going to go back to the hotel. Fresh and not them all right. Because I need her to be with man. There's no way. Absolutely not. There will not be even a question. So I'm also he works at this brewery. Is he a bartender there? He's a bar manager. Okay. Why did he have to move across state lines to be a bartender? Sorry. Continue. Yes, continue another another very, very valuable question that I have asked as well. Because there's a lot of breweries in the city where we live. A lot of them. And I discovered again, through my investigation, he's worked at a lot of them. Okay. So maybe very long. So then we all decide to meet at this restaurant and we get there and he's already at the bar. Brinking. And he's really still not talking to me. I mean, now because now he's had a few beers. Now he's a little bit less distant physically. And I'm still in I mode. I'm investigating. I'm surveilling. I'm watching every move. I'm listening to every word. Because I want to know who this guy is, how he takes. So he makes a comment that you know, if you two share dinner, all by. Now this is my daughter's 30th birthday dinner. Oh my god. Yeah. That's disgusting. So I look at my daughter and I go, you get whatever you want. I'll buy you dinner. Yeah. Please. So after dinner, we get back to the hotel and I just tell her I let's just go to sleep because I cannot wait to wake up in the morning. I am just literally chomping at the bit because now I can see right through all of it. And I feel like I don't understand why she can't, but now I'm going to help her see. So the next morning, I tell her, okay, it is time for us to have this conversation. And she's like, great. You know, what's up. So I started asking her questions. So I asked her. So how old. Did you say mark is and she said he's 40 and I said, so he told you he was 40 and she says, yeah, and I said, what if I told you that he's not actually 40 and she's like, what? And I said, I need you to look at this document. So I bring it over. And I have, and now I've highlighted everything. So she just has to look at the highlight, right. Oh god. And so I show her his birthday. And I said, that would make him 37. Why, why would he lie about his age. And she has no answer. She just doesn't even have a clue. So I said, okay, we're going to move on. I take out the property records. And I said, so so fee. You said that he owns a condo, right. And she said, yeah. And I said, and you've been there. And she said, yes. And I said, how many times have you been there? Because now we're talking, you know, we're into three months or something, right. And she says once. And I said, so he owns a condo. And you have been there one time. And she said, yeah. And I said, do you think it's odd that you've been seeing the sky for several months and you've been at his place one time. And she says, well, you know, we usually go to out around where I live. So we'll usually just go to my place. So I said, and you said that he owns it. And she said, yes. And I said, what if I showed you a document, a property document that says otherwise. So I give her the document. And I said, is that the correct address? And she said, yes. So do you see his name anywhere on this. And she said, no. And I said, if he own this, if he had any ownership at all in it, his name would be on this document. So he does not own this condo. And she's now starting. I can see her shutting down. I feel like her world is spinning a little bit now, because none of this is making sense. And I'm showing her that it doesn't make sense. These pieces of the puzzle for her are not bidding together. So she's starting to go and like, we have more. You need to stay with me. We have more. So I said to her, how many kids did he tell you he has. And she says, one, she has a son. And I said, okay, so I want you to look at this document. And I want you to look at it carefully. Look at the highlighted section. So I give her the court document. And it says, paternity hearing, he has been found to be the father of this child. So he has another child. Did he not tell you about this child. And so now I can feel her drifting. Like I feel like now she's going into shock a little bit. So I just tell her, I said, look, I just want you to think about all these things that I that I told you, I understand this is a lot for you to take in. And I understand that you're probably very devastated. But I'm going to be here for you. So whatever you need, you know, would you like to talk about any of this right now. Do you want to unpack any feelings. Where are you right now. And she's like, no, I'm okay. So we get back and she does not break up with that. She tells me she's still seeing him. I have a friend who told me that they swear by these Zbiotics pre alcohol probiotic drinks so that you don't feel gross after they have a night where they're drinking. And so I tried it. And I was so excited that we're advertising with them because they work specifically. I had this Zbiotics probiotic drink, which is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic before our producer Molly's wedding, because I knew I was going to have a drink or two. And I woke up like ready to run a half marathon. I didn't, but maybe I could have. And that's not how I usually feel after going to a wedding or a night with friends. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. So when you drink alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in your gut, put your science caps on. And it's a build up of this byproduct, not dehydration. That's to blame for rough days after drinking, although, of course, drink water and the pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break that byproduct down. So what you have to do is you make the pre alcohol your first drink of the night. And then you drink responsibly and you'll feel better tomorrow. Wedding season, Bacheloretts. Oh, I'm going to a Bachelorette. I just found out in Nashville. I will be bringing this for all the girls. Wedding season, Bacheloretts, rooftop parties, August doesn't slow down and neither do you pre alcohol keeps it that way. Zbiotics.com slash TDD code TDD for 15% off. So then she's asking me, can you just back off and let me see where this goes. No, when I know like if I pushed you hard. Yeah, because now I can already tell she's shutting down. She's not telling me anything about their relationship now. So I'm already sort of being pushed out. This is why it's so hard when you want to confront somebody because it can go to ways. Yes. Yes. And you know, I have to I have to tell you I was and I'm fully prepared for her to, to, you know, push me out of her life. But I am not going to sit by. At least you have the information. My job was always to raise my children to be able to live on their own and make their own decisions and be productive adults, but also protect them with everything that I have and everything that I am. And that is it. So I figure, okay, well, now, so I'm not completely kicked out. I'm going to lay back a little bit and I'm going to just try and spend some time with them because now I understand him, you know, I know who he is. But, but I want to kind of see how far he takes things because he's already lying, cheating, stealing, you know, are you letting him know or she letting him know that you're on him or no, I don't know what she's telling. him. Okay. I have no idea what he knows. But now the job that he had in the other state, well, now he doesn't have that job anymore. So I asked her, did he get fired or did he quit? And she says, if you want to know, you should probably ask him. Now, this is already strange behavior because it is a job. I'm not asking for the secret codes to the nuclear. You know, when someone changes jobs, it's very normal to ask what happened. Right. And then she asked me if I will meet her for dinner. And it's just going to be us. So we meet for dinner. And she said, I have something to tell you when you're probably going to be really mad. So I, I said, okay, just give it to me. And she says, Mark moved in with me. Oh, God. So I say, when did this happen two weeks ago? Well, so you waited two weeks to tell me to say, I knew you'd be mad. And I said, I just don't understand. I don't understand. I showed you. I have proven to you that he lied to you from the very beginning of your relationship before your first date, he was lying to you. And he's continuing to lie to you. And what I don't understand is why you would have him move in, especially because your last relationship, you said, there's no way I will ever live with anyone if I'm not engaged interest. And here you are, letting him move in. So now it's the next year her birthday. And now they get engaged. No. And I was horrified. And actually the following day, that's when I ended up at the doctor's office having a severe panic attack. I definitely went into panic mode because now plans will begin and things will move forward. And then it's even harder to get out of something like that, right? It just, it was rolling out of control. And I mean, I was upset from the first time I found anything. But this just, I wasn't sleeping. I couldn't eat. It's all I thought about was the doom and gloom of what my daughter was facing. So after they got engaged, my daughter posted pictures and things online. And it really was, I would say not even a week later when I received a message from the first wife's sister, who says, you, I know you don't know me, but I saw your daughter posted some pictures and she's engaged to Mark and my sister and I are very concerned for her. So I message her back immediately. And I say, I do believe you, I am equally concerned. Can we talk? Yes. So I talk with this woman. She is actually the sister of the first of the first wife. So the woman that got in touch with me is the sister of the first wife, Laura. Laura and her sister connected me with the second mom, whose name is Rachel. So this does get complicated because there are three women, there are three children, two little girls and a boy. So I'll just go over who's connected to who. So Laura is the ex-wife and the first mom. Rachel is the second mom and Nicole is the third mom and Nicole is the owner of the condo. So now I'm speaking with the one wife and her sister. I ask if they will introduce me to the second mom, Rachel and I ask them if they would reach out and see if she'd be willing to talk to me. So she agrees. So now I'm speaking with mom number one and mom number two. And they're both telling me very similar stories. He manipulates, he lies, he cheats, and he has them take out credit cards. And so when he leaves, he leaves them with a child to raise a loan and debt to pay off. So now I'm speaking with all of them. I'm getting a lot of information. And again, I tell them anything that you share with me. If I'm going to be able to share it with my daughter, because they all are feeling horrible for her. So they're sending me information. So he's lied about his military service. Oh my god, no. Yes. And I don't have the military records yet to prove this, but they're trying to get these military records for me because he's done articles where he's told stories about getting a purple heart. Oh my god. Yeah, there's been so much. I mean, it's really, there's really so much. But now I'm going to tell you something. So just I'm glad you're all sitting down because this, this is what really hit me hard with this. Oh boy. So in talking with the first and the second mom, I tell them anything that you tell me that I'm going to bring to my daughter, I need documentation. So they send me some documents and they tell me that he did of this fundraiser for his daughter and said she had cancer. No, shut up. Oh my god. So he says that she has this real rare illness and that it's a life threatening form of cancer. So of course, Rachel says, well, none of that is true. And she sent me the document. So on this document, though, this is kind of an important part is that this fundraiser that they did was through a restaurant bar type place that I believe Mark work. Okay. But Mark did not post this. So a co-worker posted this and it's under the co-workers name and on the document, you can plainly see that it was posted. And you know how they say with so and so. So we've had with Mark. So he's like not promoting it and putting his name on it directly. Yes. But his co-worker is saying, my friend, his beautiful daughter has this rare form of cancer and it's this heartfelt post about coming help the little girl, right? Oh my god. Yeah. Sick. Sick. So that was in 2018. So the daughter was about three. Now you haven't have to understand. He has never been in this child's life, not paying child support, not in this child's life, does a fundraiser. I don't know how much they raised through that fundraiser. But there was a lot of thought that went into this. He got his co-workers involved. The owners of the of the restaurant have to be involved. Yep. He got all the patrons and customers involved. This is a big deal. He's defrauding a lot of people. And I am horrified. Well, then she shares with me that mom number one in 2022, which was four years ago. Okay. He's been with my daughter now for two years. So four years ago, he did another fundraiser for his first daughter, again, saying she had cancer. That's not something you put into the universe. I'm sorry. No. No. And and this time it was a go fund me and this go fund me was this long drawn out heartfelt story about oh, I had to travel and we did this and we were up all night and we're getting checked for this and this and and it was all bull. The mom donated five dollars to go on and say this is not true. I am her mother. She does not have cancer. She never did have cancer. He is defrauding you. Well, go fund me shut that down. Now, both of these moms went to the police and they they just dismissed it. One of them went to the police in three different counties. It was dismissed by them. And you know, I don't have to prosecute these kinds of crimes. Right. Exactly. But then they sent me these other documents and there's a message and it looked like it was a post on Facebook or something. And and it said, hey, I didn't know you had a baby that died my condolences to him. So he's telling people that his daughter died. Oh my god. Remember how I told you that my daughter has said, well, if you have problems about this, you should talk to him about it. Oh, what you did. I did. Oh, I bet he loved that. So what was the I mean, I'm just asking this question for the audience. I think I understand. But can you just say why now was the time to talk to him? Because I was so horrified that anybody could pimp out their children to pocket money. No, none of those moms. He did not use that to help pay child support. He did not use that to help his children in any way. He didn't do that to help the mothers to pay for these children because he's not paying child support. So I decide that I want to go over and I want to talk to them. But I don't want it to be messy. There's a lot of things that I could have unpacked during this visit. But I decided I wanted to keep it to the most important things right now. That is not paying child support. And of course, I did ask both moms to send me documentation because when you owe child support, they keep track. So I, again, I needed evidence. So I asked both of them, if you don't mind, please send me any documentation to prove when that last payment was. So I gather the documentation on the child support and I gather the documentation on the fake fundraisers because those are the two things I need to address. So I had just gotten back from a trip. So I called my daughter and I said, hey, you know, are you guys around? I just wanted to come by and tell you about my trip. And I haven't seen you in a while. So I thought we could catch up. Great, come on over. And so I walk in and my daughter opens the door and I, I say, you know, hey, is Mark here? And she says, yeah. And I said, can you get him? Because I thought I'd share this with both of you guys. So we sit down and I, I just put the first fundraiser that was posted by a friend. But that in front of the, and I said, can you tell me about this? And he barely looks at it and he goes, oh, yeah, I was hacked. Oh, my God. Now, in my hand, I'm thinking that wasn't your account dumbass. Excuse my French. But, but you know, really, so I said, somebody hacked into your account and said your daughter had cancer. Yep. That's how it happened. So I pushed the other one in front of and I said, how about this? Can you tell me about this? He goes, yep, I was hacked. And I go, so wait a minute. What you're telling me is that in 2008, somebody hacked your account said your second daughter had cancer wrote this whole thing and you want me to believe that you were hacked. And he's like, yeah. And I said, I said, huh? Okay. So in 2000 and someone again hacked your account. Oh, my goodness. What a coincidence. And said your daughter, your other daughter had cancer. So what you want me to believe is that in 2018 and 2022, you were hacked. Someone used each one of your daughters to say they had cancer. And he's like, that's what happened. And his face looked like like a sociopath. Just no reaction. Just totally flat line. Yep. So I said, well, why don't we move on? We can come back to this if we need to. So my daughter, I said to her, Sophie, do you believe this? Do you really believe that this could have happened? And she says, oh, but people are hacked all the time. Oh, blazes. Yes. Trust me. Now, now I'm for sure. Like, I do not even know what's happening. Now she's manipulated her. It's, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's really, you know, it's, it's, I think, yeah, that we don't know the stories that she was telling her exactly clearly. He's good at them. Yeah. I know it's exactly what to say. So then I bring up the child support. And I ask him, I said, so are you paying child support? And he says, yeah. And I said, how much? And he says, and he throws out like $578 a month very quickly. And I said, show me. I don't have to do that. And I said, well, you don't, no, you're right. You don't have to show me anything, but you can. And so now he's getting upset. I do not have to do this. I don't have to, he tells me I need to leave. Oh, and he said, get the F out of my house. And I just calmly say, that's not going to happen because I'm not finished yet. So I'm pressing him on the child support. And I'm, I've got the documentation and I'm showing my daughter, especially like, do you see this? Have the last eight highlighted showing or all that. And so he gets mad and he goes to get up. And I stand up and I stand in front of him. I said, you are not leaving yet. I am not finished yet. And I'm not scared at all. My adrenaline is going. I'm like, you know, he's a bad guy. I know it. I want my daughter to know it. And I'm willing to do whatever I have to do to make that happen. So he says, I don't have to talk about this. And I said, no, you don't. I said, but, you know, let me make a call. Let's confirm these payments. So he's like, who are you going to call? Now he's all concerned on who I'm calling. So I get on the phone. I got Laura on speed dial. And she answers the phone. Mom number one. Mom number one. And I said, Hey, Laura, it's Diana. I'm here with Sophie and Mark. Is it okay if I put you on speaker? And she says, oh, yeah, put me on speaker. So I put her on speaker. And I said, so Mark is telling me that he's paying 500 says in child support. Are you getting $578 or anything in child support? She's like, I haven't had a payment in over two years. So of course, I look at Mark. And I said, so where's that child support going? You're paying a child support? What is he doing? What is he looking like? Well, now he walks around me and he's walking towards, he's like, I don't have to do this. And he walks towards the door. Well, now I'm following him. And I go, we still have some things to talk about. Well, he knows he's out the door. And I'm following him out. And he goes around the corner and he's gone. Oh my God. So I'm like, okay, well, at least now I can talk to my daughter. So I go in. And now I'm telling her, do you see what is happening here? Do you see that he is conning you? He is lying to you. And she doesn't want to hear it. So I still have mom number one on speaker phone. And so I ask her, can you please tell my daughter what your life was like when you were with him? And she starts saying he's manipulative. He's a liar. He's we walked out. He doesn't pay child support. I'm having to raise my daughter all by myself and how difficult it's been. And now my daughter's walking around the apartment and I'm following her now because she's trying to say I don't do this. She doesn't want to hear any of it. So so anyway. So then, you know, she leaves. So now I'm standing in their place by myself and I'm like, okay, well, I don't even know if any of this did any good. But now he knows because now I have confronted him. When did that confrontation happen? That was a few months ago. So yeah, it was a few months ago. So then I end up getting in touch with the third mom. I found her online. I sent her a message because now I've already talked to the two moms. And this person you're calling is Nicole, who was the owner of the condo. Yes. One mom that she knew about. Miss Sophie knew about. Yes. And she's the last one. And she's the one with the son. So I contact her. Originally, she doesn't really want to talk too much about it. She says, I just want this behind me. And then ends up, I told her, here's my number. Here's my contact information. If you change your mind, let me know. So she ends up texting me and telling me, I have thought about it. I feel horrible for your daughter because she doesn't understand what she's getting into. And so now she tells me a bunch of things about how he's manipulated her and even manipulated her son. So then she tells me, well, I have something to tell you and it's kind of big. And I'm a little worried. And so then she tells me that he has now signed legal documents to sign away his rights to his son. So the only child he's been raising for five years. And now he has signed him away. So he has no access. Oh my God. What is wrong with this man? Now he had tried to relinquish parental rights with his second daughter. And the mom there said, no. And the court said, agreed, said, no, because he does it. So he doesn't have to pay child support. Because once you relinquish parental rights, they can't come after you for child support. And the second mom needed that child support to help as a single mom. And she's not getting it, unfortunately. And I'm hoping to help change that. I'm doing whatever I can to make sure that they're aware of where he is. I love that you all found each other. Yeah. And you know, it's a horrible situation, but I feel like I have three women that are helping me to manage this because they've already managed and they're managing it now for themselves. But as a mom, they're helping me. So he did. He gave up the rights to a son. I can't believe that that didn't affect my daughter because if she wants to have children with this person, why would you? The fact that he doesn't have very good, that has given very good credit. No. I mean, look at his past behavior with his kids. He doesn't care of his daughters. And now he doesn't want to take care of his son. So to me as a mom, I look at that and I'm like, oh gosh, no, that's not who I want. He's getting a precedent for what she can expect from him. He's literally telling her what he's going to do, showing her with actions, what he will do. And she doesn't want to see it. And it really, it's heartbreaking and it makes me really, really sad because I know that she's going to have to really be struggling down the road. It's going to be a challenge that she's going to ask herself what was I thinking. And I don't want that for her. That's why I'm doing all this. I'm really, I mean, I have a couple of friends that they're like, you are like the ultimate mom of air. You're getting a job. You got to be a bulldog. - Yeah, and I personally think every mom would do that for their kids. I know a lot of people ignore that feeling though. So it's a really rough situation. I know it's hard for me. I think it's hard for some of her friends. They told me they don't wanna hang out because they couldn't stand watching her hang on every word when they knew it was all all. And I know how they feel because it's painful to watch. My daughter is smart, she's sweet, beautiful. I love and respect her so much because she's grown into this beautiful young woman. But in this case, I don't feel that she is making a good decision for herself. And I have to say, I was just like my daughter. I was. And that's another thing because I can almost see myself in her that I could have fallen for the same thing. But I'm here with the experience. - Right. - And was hoping that she would appreciate that experience and use the information. So this is an ongoing situation. They are engaged. The wedding is about nine months from now. - No, like they're planning this wedding? - Not only planning, but she, over a month ago, she went and she had her wedding dress fitting. And that was another experience that that was kind. Okay, so I had already been trying to back away a little bit because it's hard for me. Here, she's planning a wedding. I'm not part of it, but I knew she doesn't want you to be part of it. - No, she does, but I'm not a hypocrite. - You don't want to endorse the relationship. You want to love your daughter and be there for your daughter, but it's like you can't endorse that. - Exactly. - And so what I did that day, because originally she had asked if I would go with her. And I was really struggling with that, but I talked to one of my girlfriends and she said, look, if you go, it doesn't mean you're endorsing the relationship that you're supporting your daughter. So I had actually planned to go with her. And I had sent her a message. And I said, hey, give me a call. I wanted to talk about something real quick. And she sent me a message that was basically, I can't talk about this stuff anymore. She sort of went off on me a little bit. - Put the wash on talking about him. - Yeah, but my message to her was, hey, what's going on for tomorrow? Should we go out to lunch? I was trying to inquire about what the day was going to look like if she wanted to go to lunch or just do the fitting or like what she wanted to do. - She was anticipating. - Yeah. - And so when she had sent me a message and she said, so are you going tomorrow? And I said, well, I feel like your last text you already made that decision for me. And I didn't sleep that whole night. The next morning, I woke up, I was sleeped. I mean, it wasn't just that night. I hadn't been sleeping in months. So I was really worn down, but I thought, let me just go to her place, give her a hug, tell her I love her, tell her to have a wonderful day. Leave it at that. So I drove over there and she had already left. But I knew where the shop was going to be 'cause originally I was supposed to go with her. And so I drove down to the shop and I just thought, you know what? I'm not going to do this whole thing. I'm just going to go in, give her a hug, you know, tell her I love you. - But I have to tell you when I first walked in the door, she had the bridal party there. And I know a couple of them. But when I walked in, they all looked at me, and I knew that she was lying about me, most likely to protect him. - Yes. - And I felt it. You know the gut, the, what do you call it? - The mom tuition. - Scent tuition. - Scent tuition, mom tuition. I walked in and I immediately felt the air leave the room. And I-- - Like, oh, here comes her crazy mom. - Yes. - 'Cause they asked, I'm sure. They were like, where's mom? And she said, she thinks he's this criminal. And she used to be a piece of crazy. - She's crazy. - My mom's crazy. - My mom's crazy. - I'm positive that that was the vibe that was happening. - Which is probably what he's telling her. Your mom's crazy. She's crazy. - Yeah. - She doesn't want you to be in love with anybody. - And even the fact that she's believing all of those things is disturbing, because we have had such a close mother-daughter relationship. So that's another thing. I feel like I lost my friend. - I know. - You know, because she's 30. So you raise your kids and when they're grownups, now you get to be friends. But if she's willing to lie about me to protect him when she knows the truth, okay? It'd be different if she didn't know the truth. But she knows-- - She has the evidence. She's choosing to ignore it. - She's choosing to ignore it. So when that happened, that was it for me. I was like, that's it. I just can't be involved in any of this anymore. So I kind of shut down. I didn't call or I didn't text her. She texted me a few times, "Hey, how's your day?" I was like, "Good." That was it. I really kept it short and sweet. Because for myself, I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't eating. And what I did was I spent about a month and I didn't really speak to her a lot. And then I woke up one morning, I said, "I'm gonna call my daughter and see she do it." And so I did. And we kept it really. How was your day? How's work? How's, you know, nothing about him. So now she invited me to go out actually last night to go listen to music. But I did not know if he would be joining for there. And I'll do that when I'm ready because he's told me he's afraid of me to my face. He's told my daughter he's afraid of me. I'm sure he's telling a little. - Oh, he's such a victim. - Yeah, well, that's the game, isn't it? - Right. - Right, you're the bad guy. - So I'll see him when I'm ready. But right now, the fact that he gave up this kid is something that, you know, I would love to talk to him about, but I know he'll just run away. - Right. - It's what it talks me. And that's another thing I don't understand why Sophie doesn't look at that and say, what's he running away for? If he has nothing to hide. I mean, only people that have something to hide run away. They don't want to answer questions. But the narcissist, when you approach them and ask them for answers that they don't want to give you, it's a whole big drama. It's all drama. - Yeah. - And I overwhelm and then exhaust. You said you were run down. That's their point. They want that because then you stop fighting. - Right. - So I really love you here saying so confidently how you're looking out for yourself and your health because you can't help her if you don't do that. And I think a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, I have to put her first. I don't care if I become a skeleton. - Yeah. - But at the end of the day, it's not helping either of you. - No, because then you're not thinking clearly then you do get over emotional. You need to continue to nourish yourself, work out, be healthy. And so I'm slowly getting back into, I will not discuss him. I won't ask about the wedding. I'm going to protect myself while I still be there for her emotionally because when things fall apart, I want her to know that I will be there. And I always will be there for her no matter what. It doesn't matter. - She doesn't know. - Yeah, so that's, oh man. - That's what has happened. - Well, I definitely want to talk about why smart people believe blatant lies with evidence and with loved ones talking to them. So we recorded this in two sessions. So in between, I went down some rabbit holes about the psychology behind it because it's human nature to believe falsities. It's far more common than we think in so many different ways. So unfortunately, the first thing I did when I looked at why smart people believe lies is it says when somebody is emotionally attached, the barrier is not about lack of information at all. The facts, the information does not matter anymore. The thing that matters is who she trusts and where her sources are. So one, we have confirmation bias, which we all experience all the time. We just tend to focus on information that confirms what we want to believe or what we already believe. - That is so true. - Right, and that also goes into, we ignore what could prove it, what could contradict. - What could do that? - But the thing that I found most interesting was the motivated reasoning. So that means you was trusting sources based on which source supports your ideological views. Why do we do this? It's a shortcut to help us feel good. It is human nature, it is self-defense, it is built in. That's one reason. - We'd rather feel good is what you're saying. - Subconsciously, you're not making a choice. So I actually push back, she does not know the facts. She does not choose to ignore the facts. This is how we're built. So this is why it doesn't help you when your race is uncle at Thanksgiving and you get in a fight. Because you're never gonna get through to someone no matter what you show them, if they don't trust you. It's not about facts, it's about gaining trust and if someone trusts you as their source and wants to believe you, they're more likely to. So my next question, why doesn't she trust you? See, and that's another thing that, because she has trusted me her whole life. She, and that's the heartbreaking moment. - Yes, and that's another thing that I struggle with. Why doesn't she trust me? Because I've always shown up for her. And I personally believe that it was very quickly that the manipulation started. - Yeah. - And whatever it was he was saying has made her trust me. him more than anyone else because you have to understand I'm not the only one who's walked away. She had a group of friends that she has friends with about for about five years and they were a tight knit group and for them to walk away. I mean if you look up manipulation you will see that the signs are all there. And she's trauma-bonded I imagine. I bet there's an intimate reward going on so every time he betrays her he gives her what she needs to feel amazing and that is even more addicting than stability. Diana can I can I ask and I'm asking for myself and for our audience are you open to hearing from other people like oh this is my experience with it this is what happened and are you willing to consider other perspectives on ways to handle this? Absolutely absolutely that's why I'm talking about it because I honestly I do understand that I may not be approaching this the right way. This is new territory for me. Well I don't think there is a right way to believe. It's more about effectiveness too at this point it's kind of like right wrong doesn't matter if you get through to her you get through to her right and that's why I thought when I went over to their place and had all my evidence laid out and asked him to explain this and when he couldn't explain it I don't know why she didn't say why are you not explaining this? I totally support where you're coming from and that's hard as a mom or someone close to someone in a relationship like that but also when I was growing up my mom was always like I don't like that person I love him because you love him and she was always right about all of them but I had to learn my lesson through those myself and it made me stronger and she was to this day I can say my mom was always she never said don't do it don't do it she just said I don't like it and then she said I guess I'll go to your wedding I'll do whatever I don't like it but I'm there and that was one thing that made me respect her more than anything but I would like to empower you to take the reins by flipping the script on her and just being there yeah I thank you because I think you're right because you're right nothing else has been working nothing's more important than your daughter and you're here because you love her so much exactly fuck this guy you go be with your baby it don't if she's gonna make this mistake she gonna make it with or without you go be with your baby you know what I mean like that's a my take anyways yeah I think a lot of it for me because what's really frightening is that if she marries this guy I'm afraid that she will end up in this forever because she's too too nice to get out but if you're there to support her she'll know I can get out because my mom's there to support me I hope I hope so as long as you're there she knows as long as my mom is there to support me if she gets to the point where she wants to leave she's gonna know my mom she knew something was wrong with this guy I should have listened to her I didn't but that's in the past mom I need your help I'm ready right and that's how it's gonna be I agree with you and I'm I think for myself I've I just got to work back up to that I think you can stay connected which you're already doing yeah checking in showing interest in her life encouraging her independence stick with your hobby stay with your friends keep your finances pursue your career like you can be so supportive in so many elements of her life without feeling like you're necessarily gung ho endorsing of the relationship but at this point even yeah like you said but I think you could say that like in some ways not to hurt yeah in our past in our past episode you know Hannah we've talked to a lot of people who say the best way to support someone is not say he's abusing you get out get out get out get out get out they're the ones saying hey I'm here for you every single day hey the people that are saying hey I'm there for you hey I'm there for you those are the people that the victim ultimately come to and say hey I'm ready to get out I definitely won when I got the information on the on the fake fundraisers that was so disgusting that was yeah that was a blow for me that I felt that I had been hit by a truck and then it ran back over me backwards because I don't know how you do that to your own children I do not kind of person is this that's marrying my daughter that's willing to talk about his kids having cancer to get money a narcissistic sociopath discuss one of the exes had said that he was diagnosed has a has a narcissistic sociopath oh so you know I don't have the proof of that I don't have those medical records yours unable to even bring that but I you know like we said I'm done providing information I'm just gonna try and get my my daughter back is best I can and be there for her but I look at it and I'm sad for the future for all of us because my so one one of my nieces just had a baby with her husband who is wonderful and I look at them and I think they are so connected and that's not going to happen in for me you know I there's you're like morning this future that you expected I am I am and for all of us as as a family so there there's there's a lot of that's going through my brain and my heart right now like I said my my daughter and I have been very very close and I treasure that relationship and to have to step back from that and allow her to make this mistake is is a difficult thing I think any mom would agree to watch your child knowingly get into something that has potential danger in it is it's difficult I have done everything I can do I've provided her with the information she's going to learn and she'll learn on her own and I'll be there with the safety net whenever she needs me I think you just answered your own question I'll be there with the safety net yeah yeah yeah absolutely I mean no matter what she needs I'll be there for her this experience has left me heartbroken on so many levels but I do want to say that if there are people out there that are going through the same thing have been through the same thing and want to connect with me please you know let us know ever yeah yeah you know contact contact are are are dating detectives and they will get messages to me but I do appreciate y'all giving me the time to show and you don't know what you've given to other people by sharing I speak if I help one other person to well you know I don't want anyone else to go through this obviously because as a mother it is one of the most painful things that I've ever experienced and so my feeling is if one person listens to what I'm going through and how I'm trying to manage it and believe me I don't feel that I'm doing a good job I feel like I feel like I'm I'm hanging on for dear life um that's a good job honestly yeah it's just day by day day by day and I'm still trying to be positive and supportive and there for my friends and family and and be all of the things and I'm suffering deeply on the inside but I'm trying really hard so hard to manage that so hopefully this is helpful to somebody and and anybody who's going through it any of these things and it really is difficult to do the best you can absolutely that's the best advice do the best you can do the best you can and and do your homework if you feel like something is wrong it probably is and do the research I mean there let me can I just talk about how a non-PI finds information a little bit please yes that's great just because I think it would be helpful because a lot let me get my note pad a lot of people hear what I'm saying and think well I don't have all that stuff the PIs have how am I going to do this and and I was a PI I'm not anymore I no longer have access to any of the tools and resources so it's all legal it's all legal so first you want to gather all of the information you can about the person because when you're doing the research you want to make sure you're researching the right person so if they have a common name it might be a little more difficult you might need to get you know addresses because you need to match these things up date of birth full name brothers and sisters parents you want all of that information past addresses because that's a great way to connect whatever personal information you can gather try and do that the best you can and sometimes it's just a matter of asking believe it or not 100% just always remember people love to talk about themselves so if you ask oh where are you from just doing a nice way you'll get you'll get the information you need and then look at the court system so go to the the local federal like look at all of the different courts for that area for your own county look at and every previous place they've lived too right absolutely only in that county absolutely so that was why I had asked about previous cities and states where he lived because I needed to fall and I did actually backtrack because the information I found was not from the state we live in now it was from the state yeah so and that's important to know if the more information you can get about previous states also is really important really absolutely absolutely you want to start from from where they live where they first lived and grew up because you don't know when things could have started and you could miss a lot So follow up with each state that they've lived in, check all those records, also property ownership, because property records you can find out, if someone's telling you that they're not married and you look at property records and they own a property with a woman with the same, you know, I mean, yeah, there's a question at the very least. I mean, if if nothing else, and this is a fact gathering event, let's not throw anybody in jail quite yet. But let's just gather as much information as possible, because we're going back to the puzzle. You're going to be taking all this information and trying to see if it fits into the puzzle. And that's how you can find a clear picture. I will definitely stay in touch and yeah, we need update. I will. I definitely will. And if there's anything we can do, I don't know, I know you feel like you've already to do. This is, this is pretty, you all have helped me with this, with this conversation, because it has been really helpful to me, that you are teaching me to see things a little bit differently. And I always say that you don't have to have a huge change. You can have a small shift that can make all the difference. And I feel like this conversation is allowing me to shift back to being there for my daughter. If your daughter needs a support system, I can't tell you, there's at least two million people that'll be like, girl, we got you. So she's ready to tell her story. And if she thinks it would be helpful to hear from us, I guarantee them to these folks, these ladies that listen are so, they're not afraid to talk. And she's got a bunch of aunties and sisters that are in her corner. She's got a community ready to support her. So we are ready to say, hi, nice to meet you. You're not stupid. And you're not alone. We got you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Oh, thank you so much for being here and talking to us. Well, thank you. Okay, so a lot of good conversation. A lot of this is like, we already started debriefing and I love debriefing with her. Well, it's interesting because, oh, man, that's such a hard conversation, because again, it's preference. Like we talked about at the beginning of the show, we talked about how it's, you know, really, what is your gut tell? What does your heart tell you to do? And sometimes it's don't say nothing. Sometimes it's, you know, say something, but also you're a mom and an investigator. That's hard. It's so hard. I think it was great to have the conversation about her, she like I, I, you need to look out for number one. We always say that if you're not safe, if you're not healthy, you can't help anybody else. So I think she's walking this line right now with what you were talking about of like, I want to be with my daughter. I want to stay there for my daughter, but I have to protect myself at the same time because she has a life, you know, she can't give 100% of herself emotionally to this relationship issue. Right. But I'm sure she wishes she could. Like I'm sure she wishes she could just throw herself in front of her daughter while this car is moving toward her, but she can't. My heart just breaks because I could see, and this is why I'm so curious about our audience opinion, because every, I feel like there's so many different opinions, but really it's like, so, okay. So Diana's basically saying, like, I could see someone saying, I don't want anything to do with this because then I feel like I'm condoning it. But then for me personally, I feel like, but that's still your kid, you have to support no matter what. Yeah. I could see both. Like, what do you do? And then yes, she could, she could agree with you and still be like, but yeah, like, what if I'm not saying this is the case in this scenario, but what if he was a dangerous person? Like at what point do you say, I'm on stage supporting my daughter? And that's not necessarily what's happening here, but emotionally, the weight of having to go to a wedding, for example, is like something she can only know herself, whether she knows to do well, she ain't into it. Like that's hard. Oh my God. I think everybody is going to have a lot of thoughts on this. And we know you guys are great. Just remember to be kind. She is a listener, a long time listener shout out to her friend who recommended the show to her because it made us cry hearing how it has helped her. Well, her friend is a long time listener. She just heard from us. And then she went back to the first episode, started listening to all of them in every episode. She was like, oh my gosh, I relate to this. Oh my gosh. And that's what's so interesting. And so we like, just be sweet in the comments. Yeah, it's okay to disagree with her and what she was doing. But there's a way to like, you know, my God, have respect for each other. So just remember. Well, you're so people to, because we don't usually get people who are in the middle of the case. So it was good for you to ask, like, do you want people to help you with other perspectives? Well, actually, that's a trick I learned from you because when you and I first started working together three years ago, you gave me that advice. You're like, hey, instead of just saying, this is what I mean, because I have no filter. And you're like, try saying, hey, are you open to hearing feedback? Are you even, are you even interested in hearing what I have to say? And then if not, what's the point? You know what I mean? And the reason, well, I love that you. Well, I just always was like that too. And my mom and I both had to learn that and I related to her when she was talking about being a fixer. Like, it just comes from a place of like, oh, I want to help. But then it's like, I have to, I have to learn to live by the idea that like, I don't give advice unless someone asks for it. Because also for two reasons, one, they might not like it, which is fair. And two, they're probably not going to take it. Like, if somebody doesn't want the backer advice, if somebody doesn't want your help, it's not going to really work to just tell them what you think they're doing wrong. You know, like, there is a way to share this information and this ties into that. So, well, I'm glad that that made sense to you. And this goes back to people in these, like, let's say domestic violence relationships just as an example or narcissistic or abusive relationships, whatever. And they come to you and they say, Oh, I hate him because he treats me this way. And it's like, Oh, then you need to leave. Our first reaction is usually to be like, well, let me respond. But when you say, like, that really sucks that you're going through that, right? Do you want feedback from me or do you just need a friend? And I think that's so valuable because it's like, no, I just want you to hear me bitch for a little bit. And sometimes we need that. But sometimes it's like, no, I really, I value your friendship. And I really want to hear what you have to say. But then whatever you have to say, if they don't like it, they asked for it. So it's not, you know what I mean? They can get mad at you. But at least it's been welcome. And then they're like, okay, I don't want to hear anymore. And then they can create those boundaries. But I think that's a good idea to ask. So that's one, one takeaway I've had, especially with all of our listeners, all of our audience. I agree. And on top of it, we've said this before, when somebody's in a relationship where they're being manipulated, part of their subconscious stress is that they've lost control. And when you ask somebody if they want feedback, if you ask somebody if they need anything, you're giving them the control in the small way. But it's like, they need that. Yes. And Diana could do that too. Like she could go to her daughter and say, hey, so I found some more information. Are you open to hearing it? Or are you still pretty closed off to that? Do you want to learn more about what I found? Or do you just need my support right now? She's so worried about losing her daughter to this guy. But if you're going to lose her by giving her the information, then just support her and be there, be someone that she can lean on. In my opinion, I think that that's the right thing. Yeah. As a daughter, but you know, it makes sense now. I think, yeah, I could like up until this point, I understand her obligation to share the information she found. And then see what happens. Because based on her experience with her daughter, that would have been the way to get through to her. Like she, that's why this is so hard because she is seeing this, this girl behavior in a way that is not how she remembers her. Like she's, so I wanted to point out, okay, I thought of something. Remember the TV show Tell Me Lies? Yes. It was all about a narcissistic abuser in a college setting and also that whole friend group was a mess. But if you didn't see it, it was, oh, yeah. It revolved around relationship. And I remembered. So it's Steven and Lucy's mom visits campus. And she has issues with her mom. I mean, she's a girl in college and she has a mom. So that's all I needed to say. So Steven, his mom is mentally ill and he doesn't have a good relationship with his mom. So when he meets his mom, his girlfriend's mom, he's a dick to her. He's rude. He's standoffish. And he kind of encourages Lucy to be like, you know what, your mom did this XYZ to you. You should, you don't have to be nice to her. Like just because she's your mom. And in Lucy's head, who she's already been manipulated by this narcissist, she says, okay, Steven's mom has been horrible to him. I understand where he's coming from. And you know what? Maybe my mom has been horrible to me. And maybe I don't, you know what I mean? Like it made so much sense the way she was able to justify his bad behavior. Because Lucy knew that he should be respectful to her mom when he meets her for the first time. And yet she can understand why his trauma informed it and understand why he thinks she should behave a certain way around her mom. And take a step further. Now she's like, maybe he knows best. Maybe I have never known that my mom's GI skills were intrusive. Maybe I have, like whatever it is, he's poisoning. He could be lying to her about something her mom did. She could say, oh my mom gave me this present. And he could say, well, your favorite color is red. And that present is blue. Does it don't you think she doesn't listen to you? Doesn't she not pay attention to you? Like they can really get in there. I just felt like that was a good example of what could be going on behind the scenes. - Absolutely, and also this goes back to the illusory truth effect. The more you hear something, the more your brain believes the probability that it could be true. So the more she's, now she's living with him, they're gonna get married. The more she hears him say, well your mom's crazy. Well your mom's crazy. Well your mom's crazy and your mom's this and that's not true and I love you and I love you. So you're starting to believe the narrative that he's telling you because you're hearing that more often. So when the mom comes along, of course you don't trust her because your brain is believing what it's hearing more of. And so it sounds like even though this is not a stupid girl, but we believe what our brain believes the most probability to be true and that is what we hear the most of. - So she's hearing a lot, the illusory truth effect, add on to that just cognitive dissonance and wanting things to be true. So she's pushing her, - They're her own narrative. - Yeah, and this is unconscious. This is what we do. Like we all do this. We do this when you see something online that supports your belief and then you find out that the photo is from something totally different. Like our brains, this is like a whole social media and everything. I mean, this conversation gets bigger. A lot of the-- - It's a co-confirmation bias. - Yes, confirmation bias. The book I was looking at, it's this guy Joseph Pierre and he wrote a book called False, How Mis-Trust Disinformation and Motivated Reasoning Make Us Believe Things That Aren't True. - Oh, I need to read that. - There's a lot of the same patterns going on when we're reading a bias news article as when we are listening to an abusive boyfriend. And I think we all, that's why we say, the minute you think it's not gonna happen to you, is the minute you're vulnerable. - That's when you're the most vulnerable. - Yep. And it's just because we want to feel good. Like our brains want to be right. I think it feels good to be right. - I guess I just feel so like I feel solid in what I believe to be the right thing to do and that is just to be there for your kid no matter what. But also, I believe that, I mean, everybody has their own moral and ethical compass, right? But I just think that I could totally see how she would feel like a hypocrite if she supports what her daughter's doing. Like, no, I'm not supporting. I could totally see that as an investigator too. Like I can just say, hey, I gave you the information and if they say together, I don't give a shit. I don't care, it's not my circus, not my monkeys. But this is my circus because that's my monkey. - That's her monkey. - Yeah, that's her baby, and so what do you do? - By stepping back in the way that you're describing, it actually does leave more space for Sophie to get there on her own. - Yeah. - And it's not that she shouldn't have presented her with the information, but now that she has, I think it is probably, I agree. I think it's probably the most effective thing to leave the agency in Sophie's hands. - Well, because it's your idea, it's great. If someone else presents it, it's like, oh, that's stupid. But if it's your idea, you're gonna believe in it more. And so when you, she's planted the seed, but now it's gotta be Sophie's idea to get out. And when it is, and she's gonna feel much more confident in it, period. - This is devastating. His patterns of leaving his women for other women and that cancer fundraisers are just so disgusting. I mean, he's just a, I think he is a narcissistic sociovast. My unofficial, unauthorized diagnosis. And it also is a good reminder of that dogfish are not just harmful to the person they're dating. It's a whole world of other people involved. Your family, your friends, there's not one victim. There's not one casualty. - Man. - It was a lot just because it's just, it's hard, it's hard. - She just knows, you know your baby's in this. Your baby knows your baby's in this situation. It's not hardheadedness, it's not stupidity, it's just, it's your heart. - And nobody knows what it's like until you're in it. Like I think we could all, I know I wanna ask my mom after she listened to this, like what would you do if I was in this dating situation? And I think it's, we can speculate all we want, but when you're in it, it's like. - Absolutely. - So emotional. - Absolutely. - But I hope, yeah, I hope other kids and parents have conversations based on this episode. Like I encourage you to listen to it with your children and be like, if you get in that situation, what do you, what do you want me to do? Like have the conversations now, y'all? And then I don't know, maybe it helps navigate it in the future, maybe it helps avoid it. - But also this is what going back to what I was saying about teaching our young daughters. Like I hope that our podcast reaches women with young daughters and encourages them to have their conversations with their young daughters about how to know yourself worth, how to trust your femtuition. Your femtuition never needs evidence and teach our young daughters what to look for so that when they go out in the world on their own, they're hearing our voices in the back of their head. They're hearing us. - And we're not trying to scare you, we're trying to empower you. - Yeah. - Because love is real, good at things are out there. You can still put yourself out there with just more understanding of how to navigate stuff. Well, if you want to talk more about this story or any story and you happen to live in Orlando or Tampa, we need to see you this week on Wednesday in Orlando, on Thursday in Tampa. The ticket info is in the episode description and tickets are selling. So if you want to come, you should get them. Don't wait 'til the last minute. - Thank you for our Patreoners supporting us. Thank you for all of you listening and sharing because that's how we got connected with Diana. That's how we get connected with so many of you. If you have a story, you can email investigate at thedatingdetectivespodcast.com and we love you, take care of each other. - As always, trust your scent.