Mom Shaming

[Music] Hey podcast family, welcome to Motherhood in Black & White. I'm Kongi. I'm Tara. We're going to be talking about mom shaming this week. So mom shaming refers to kind of the act of shaming a mother's decisions and decisions that each of us make at some point during our motherhood journey. We have either been criticized for or I think was even worse is the self criticism. The self criticism is where I suffer yes. Yeah and we talk about mom shaming. It is the act of making assumptions or making judgments about the decisions that another mother makes in her journey. So I'm curious Tara before we talk about the self-shame which will probably take up most of this episode. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about why you think moms in general kind of quote unquote shame one another and why it's so prevalent right now. Oh. I think that the mom shaming often comes from this idea of an ideal parenting story right that your kids have to look a certain way, no certain things get to certain places by a certain time and that if it doesn't look like that then it's wrong. And I personally believe that a lot of times when people are projecting shame and judgment onto others it's because they have internal shame and judgment. Like I know I've seen that in myself and I think sometimes that happens. So it's probably a little bit of both right. I think some people do think it's supposed to look a certain way and if it doesn't then they have judgment. But I also think sometimes when people have that internal judgment they reflect it out. Oh yeah. Right. And I think that because of the fact that a lot of us are parenting on social media. You see it's a lot more prevalent. Yes. Right. Does that make sense? No, that's a great point. And it starts really early on right. I think for me I experienced mom shame when I was in my third trimester carrying my son Roman. So this would have been in 2008 and I was at a restaurant and everyone around me was having wine so there was a wine glass in front of me and I saw the table of women next to me just kind of clutching their pearls and rolling their eyes. Right. So it was like do you criticize? So I realized like, oh whatever I do I'm going to be judged for this. Yes, that's true. Right. And then there was probably within that week I had gone out to a sushi restaurant and I saw people looking at me like before I even ordered. And I'm thinking are they going to judge whether or not I have raw fish? You want to yell at them? I'm in about third trimester. You can't mess it up at this point. I can mess it up after he's born. That's right. Right. Right now we're good. And I have messed up many things after he's been born and we'll talk about that in a couple of minutes. But I think there are some categories and we talk about the motherhood journey and how there is shame that's associated with decision making that other moms make. Right. And I wonder why is it my business or why do I care if a mother chooses to breastfeed or not or be if a mother chooses to be a work from home mom or a stay at home mom. These are decisions that I've heard in conversations. People talk about opinions on. Have opinions on other people. Other mothers. Right. Yeah. Has that has that been your experience as well? Yeah. And I think those are probably two of the big ones that we see debated the most. But yes, I have that experience. I am much less, I'm not perfect, but I'm having enough trouble making my own decisions to be worried about other people's decisions. But I do see it happen a lot. You know, I remember I think one of the biggest outward shames I had was not being able to volunteer at Gage's school as much or participated as much because of my job and getting looks about that like being asked, "All right. Can you be room mom and being like, I'm so sorry, I can't. You know, here's where I can contribute." And not being spoken to by that parent for a while, it was really weird. Yeah. It's really odd. And I also think that in many instances and circumstances, people come from a genuine place of concern. Yes. Right. And care. And that might be their rationale behind some of the decisions or opinions that they're sharing with you and with me, but sometimes we have to acknowledge and realize that the tone or the choice of words or even having to voice an opinion in certain ways. It's wrong. It's inappropriate. It's inappropriate. Yeah. And we think that these can come from other moms like in the PTA or in the classroom, can come from friends, family members who may have a sense of concern, but may inadvertently say something that we're questioning, "Well, why is your child wearing this outfit?" Right. "Did your child get a bath today?" Exactly. It's like, "Why are you allowing your child to participate in this activity?" Right. Yeah. So let's take a moment and maybe talk for a few moments about times when we have been mom shame. And then, as we mentioned earlier, a lot of this conversation is going to be talking about self-same. Yes. And kind of why that is. And hoping that some of our stories resonate with our podcast family that are listening in. Absolutely. And so, my mom shame, the first thing I think for me was, and what I've heard from a lot of other parents is my lack of home-cooked meals for my family. That you don't cook. For the large majority of my sons upbringing, he did not have a very diverse palate. He didn't like eating a lot of stuff. And I didn't want to fight that fight when he was younger. And maybe it's something that I should have done. But I remember there were lots of times when I would make him play to be in public. If you were like, "You don't have enough green vegetables on his plate." Yeah. You know? Yeah. Why are there no green vegetables? I've been with you for two days and I have not seen this child eat a vegetable. My favorite one on that one is like, when I was raising my children, I made them. I made them eat at least way. And that's their opinion. That's their experience. But it didn't necessarily need to be mine. I said, "Well, his pediatrician says he's fine, so we're good." Yeah, he's growing. He's healthy. We're solid. He's definitely a healthy child. Yeah. So that's something that I experienced regularly and I'm curious if that's also something that you experienced. Yeah. The food thing has been tough and it crosses both lines because I have shame about that. Like I wish I had, I don't know, pushed more or made it more of a priority and engaged with similar. He still doesn't eat a whole lot of different things. We've had some great wins this year where he's tried some new stuff and he's liked it and that's been great. But you know, I've struggled with nuts and it's been more personal on my side because my mother-in-law, and I've levered dearly, my mother-in-law is in a phenomenal cook. My husband has always been one of those people that ate anything and she would never direct it at me. She would just say things like, "Oh gosh, Jason was young. He just ate everything. I just put everything on his plate that I ate and he just ate it or she would talk about how important it was for her that Jason ate a lot of stuff. And I would hear it and I would filter it through the shame I already felt about what he was engaged was doing. And I would just be like, "I know, I'm terrible. I would just have that voice in my head." He started making up those stories. I did. I started like, "Oh, she's right. I'm doing it wrong. I should have done more." And I still have a little bit of "Ugh, about that." Yeah. You touched on something that really kind of resonated so deeply with me. It's when I hear statements that I internalize even if they're not necessarily about me. If it's criticism in general, if it's something that I feel is a place where I need to do better or I'm struggling and I haven't really let the world know, then it hurts and it kind of touches that nerve. And again, one of those is with food choice. And like you and your son, Gage, Roman has been a picky eater since the day he was born. And sometimes, you know, I wish that I had been a little bit more forceful in making sure that he had these quote-unquote balanced meals and choices. So when people make comments or statements, it really feels as though it's like a dagger right into my soul. Yeah, they just add terror to the end of the statement. And then I just add terror. Yes, my son ate everything terror. Yes, even when I'm looking at memes, if it's something that I feel is something that I've done or have not done, it's like, "Oh, you wrote this about me." Stranger. And it's someone's in this to me on purpose. It's for me. Yeah. It's like, "LOL, just thinking about you, Conjaging." Yeah. That's true. Yeah. And, you know, for me, most of the decisions or the shame comes from the comparison. Yes. You think about children and their development. And where our kids are within their development also then, where we were at that age or stage, where our siblings were at that age or stage. Like, for example, when Roman started crawling, he was five months in 29 days. I don't know why I remember this. I just filed away forever. I was like, "My son is a pride." But I was like, "Yes, he's crawling and posted all over social media." And then I look at other women and they're like, "Oh, my 14-month-old isn't walking yet." And it's like, "Oh, you're child." - Well, it's not walking yet. You know, it's one of those, like, well, are you making sure that they stand up? Are you caring them always? And it starts to get to that point where we think of it as a competition and stuff, right? - Oh, that absolutely makes sense. And I think social media makes it harder. And I think that, you know, sometimes when I think back on some of those things that I was proud of or not that I shouldn't be proud of them, but some of that's just so out of our control. So, I mean, it's great that he walked at five and I think gave seven or eight months when he crawled and he walked right before he turned one. And I remember right before he turned one, we were at, we were visiting Jason's family and they were bound and determined to get that kid to walk. They were just like, he's got to do it. He's got to do it for he turns one. And I'm like, why does he have to do it? I mean, but I get it. And I think at the bottom of that too is like a concern. Like if he's not meeting these milestones, what does that mean? You know what I mean? Yeah. So we think like with Roman being potty trained, it was this whole like, oh, they have to be potty trained by two. And if they're not doing this, then what's gonna happen? And I kept thinking to myself and some of the women around me, it's like, I've not seen a 30 year old man wearing a diaper. Yes. So it's a point. Yeah. It's gonna happen to him. He's gonna do those. He's gonna be just fine. Yes. It's gonna click. Yeah. But when it wasn't clicking, there were statements and sentiments that were kind of being thrown around. He's like, oh, you know, your brothers learned how to be potty trained much before you or the people other moms are saying, or in the preschool. Oh, the preschool teacher. The preschool teachers. Oh, all the other kids in the class are potty trained. Yeah. It's like, well, that's good for them. Yeah, they even make, I remember, Gage started preschool when he was three and he was not potty trained. That right? Yes, he was three and he was not potty trained. And we hadn't even attempted it really just because, I don't know, we just didn't know what to do really. And so it was like this undertone of almost like, if he doesn't get potty trained by dot, dot, dot, he can't come to school. Like there was this undertone of like, we can't handle it if he doesn't get potty trained. Oh, really? Yeah, it felt like that. Oh wow. It felt like that. Oh, I gotta get on this. Right. So we have these like milestones that our kids are expected to meet and reach. And if they don't, they're ashamed that attaches. Now, some of those are artificial kind of like, created by society. And then there are some milestones that our kids are expected to reach. And sometimes when they don't, that deep, internalized shame kind of creeps in. And that's what I want to talk to you about there. The internalized shame from some of the milestones that maybe my child could have and should have reached. But because of, I would say some things I probably failed to do as a mother. He didn't do in that normal course. And that is just created great shame. And for you podcast family, you're going to hear about a couple of these for the very first time. I know. I think you might hear about it. I may hear about it for the first time. Yeah. So milestones. The first milestone that Roman, my son, did not reach, is that he was not able to tie his shoes until he was about eight years old. Same. Gave still hates to tie his shoes. Right. And the reason for it. And we've talked about this before. Both of us are women that worked outside the home. For from the time that Roman was five until he was 11, I worked outside the home at a financial institution. And I had to be present at the bank at 8 AM. So I was kind of most mornings were rushing out the door to get everything ready. And then when he was in school, exact same thing. We need to rush out the door. We're on a schedule. And so when we're teaching kids to do things, patience is definitely required. Because they're not going to do things as quickly as we do. But we need to start developing and flexing in them that muscle. This is how you start to do things. With Roman tying his shoes, I would say that the only creature on earth that kind of did it a little slower than him would have been the sloth. [LAUGHS] So most mornings, I said, come on, buddy, let's put on your shoes and go. It was very slow and very wrong. And it got to the point where I was looking at the clock and I felt like we were playing beat the bank or beat the clock. And it got to a point where so many days I just said, hey, let me do it. We got to get out of here. Let me do it so we can get out of here. And that became the habit. And when it got to a point where he needed to tie his shoes, he would go to school. If shoes came untied, sometimes the teachers would be like, oh, we have to get outside for recess or lunch, all tie our shoes for you. And that's what he became accustomed to. And a lot of times I got velcro shoes. Yes. Because as he started getting older, those Z-strabbs are-- I mean, so you need a schedule Z-strabbs coming clutch. Yes, I was like, I just don't want people to really know that you're not good at tying your shoes. And it's something that he learned how to do. He's good at doing now. But again, it's not something that he's great at doing. And that he doesn't like tying his shoes at all. Yeah, he can't do their gauge. Currently, his favorite shoe is the Adidas pull on. There's no laces on that thing. He loves them. He wears them all the time. He can tie his shoes, but he's still not great at it. And it frustrates him. So that, for me, is my mom's shame story. One of two. I will share another one. But thank you for giving me this opportunity in space and grace to share something that has always been a source of angst for me and sadness and kind of like, I just didn't do it right. But I'm learning to let it go. It's like, you know what? It's OK. It's OK. It's OK. That's all right. There it is. So we've created the space. Thank you, Tear. It's a safe space. OK. So what do you have to share with us? So one of my biggest secret mom, James, is that gauge. So he just learned to ride a bike like a month ago. And when he turned five, my husband and I had it in our minds, like, oh, this is the year he's going to learn to tie his shoes. And he's going to learn to ride a bike. We were like, those things had to happen when he turned five. And he's had a bike. He's had at least four different bikes. And we've tried. And it would just never click. And he would get so frustrated about it that we would just be like, OK, just forget it. And we would always talk about it. We need to get out there and do it when he learned to ride a bike. And I don't know. I mean, kids don't go anywhere on bikes as much as they did when we were kids. Well, in this area, where we live. Right. So like in the city, we'd see kids on bikes, but hardly ever. So I don't know if this was your experience. But when I was a kid, we lived in the country. That's how we went everywhere. Right. If you didn't have a bike, you didn't go anywhere. I don't think our parents know exactly how many miles we were riding. Towns away. Yeah. I lived in the city. But my best friend lived a town over and recently, probably 10 years ago, I drove back and I checked the odometer driving. How far she lived for me. It was 3.6 miles from my house to her house. And I was doing that like daily. Yeah. We were the ones starting at age 11. Yeah. We just lived on those bikes. And so I guess my husband and I both just had this in our mind. Like if the kid can't ride a bike, it says something about that kid. It was the weirdest thing. Does it say something about the kid or the parents, Tara? Well, it started out about the kid and then it became about us because we weren't doing anything about it either. You know, so it was like, it was started out one way and they kind of turned into another. And you know, we would, every now and again, it would just come out. We'd be like, God, we got to teach him how to ride a bike. He's not a ride a bike. And then what happened is he's in scouts and his troop was working on their cycling badge. And I was like, God. And so he, and I will tell you what's funny about it is, is we went to that meeting and the scout masters like asking everybody if they have a bike and gave his hands. He's like, I don't know how to ride a bike. Like no shame. I don't know how to ride a bike. And it's got me. It's like, that's cool. You know, he just learned his son just learned to ride a bike last month. He's like, we'll teach you how to ride a bike. Okay. No, but it was like no big deal. And it just totally took all the pressure off of it. And you know, we took him and we kind of on a bike. And the kid at the store where we bought the bike, we went to like an actual bike store. The kid that sold us the bike took him out back and taught him how to ride a bike in like five minutes. How old was this kid? He was probably like 17. And he taught. He's not a ride bike in like five minutes. Did you and Jason go outside to kind of see what his tricks were and how he did it? Yeah, yeah, we did. We watched it. I mean, I think some of it is just age. You know, Gage is just bigger. He's got more control of his body and balance. Like I think some of it was that. And I think what we've learned about Gage and he gets this from his mom is that he would rather learn from anybody except us. Like, I don't know what it is. And that's totally okay. Like I just think he would rather be coached or learn something new from anyone except me and his dad. Yeah, that's kind of what we figured out about a bunch of things. Right. As we watched him, he was like, listen to that kid. He was digesting the information. He was doing it. He'd never been able to do that with me and Jason. And I was like, we should have just done this 10 years ago. I was like, what were you thinking? He's never going to learn from us. Right. And what you just said reminds me of a conversation that we had a few episodes ago with Sarah Durham, the coach for kids. Oh, yeah. And she's also a teacher. And she said, you know, sometimes when you look at getting a coach for your teenagers or adolescents, it's because they're going to say things and learn things from other adults that may not be you or your parent. That's true. Or their parent, excuse me. Yeah. I mean, I think we saw it in action. And it's been so much fun because it turns out he loves right now bike. We kept trying to tell him he was going to love it and he just, I mean, whatever we say, he just can't hear it. it and that's okay. It's part of the fun of being a kid and a parent, you know, but it's been fun to watch him. He loves to ride it. We've been letting him go on his own a little bit around the neighborhood and so it's been really cool but I mean for a really long time. I would just people will talk about their kids on their bikes. Oh yeah, too go on a bike and I would just cower in the car and I just hated it. Well, I'm glad that you were able to not cower any longer and be vulnerable and kind of share that story with us because you aren't the only person whose 11-year-old doesn't know how to ride a bike. When I was in my 20s, I was living in New York City and one of my work, my teammates shared with me that she didn't know how to ride a bike and I actually have a couple bikes. Why don't you come out to my neighborhood and I'll teach you how. So I was probably late 20s and she was a couple of years younger me and I taught her how to ride a bike. I love that. So I had that. Had I known, I would have taught gauge years ago, girl. I wish I had told you, I would have had you come over. He would have listened to you. He probably would have had the bike whisper. That's right. That's right. Which, you know, because I taught you had a ride a bike. You taught me how to ride a bike in place. In place. That's going nowhere. Which is a very specific skill, by the way. Let's be clear. That is not like riding a bike on the street. I know. That would be like, what is it that you do? I just teach moms and sons how to ride a bike. That's right. But we think about the other thing and we talk about mom sharing a lot of it is about sharing stories that might not necessarily align with yours or your beliefs, but being able to listen to another mother share that story without fear of being judged and without fear of any sort of backlash that's actually doing. And so many times when we do have this sense of shame around us, we don't reveal something that is happening with our, either our mother hood junior with our kids because we are afraid of people's opinions of what we're doing. So the other story I wanted to share with you is it's bed sharing. Our son Roman, he kind of shared the bed with me until he was like 10 or 11. Now I will say that my husband would sleep in a different bed because of snoring issues. And we'll talk about that on another show. So Roman, you know, he was sharing the bed and it was comfortable and it was comforting until he was about 10 or 11 or so. And some people like, Karate, you need to get that boy in his own bed. You need to get them in his own bed, which is okay. And he's not going to be 30 years old. He's not going to be 18. He's not going to be 16. He's sharing the bed with me. Right. Right. So for me, it's like at this point, it makes sense for us and what we're doing and the sense of comfort that he needs. Let him go ahead. It was a king size bed. I was wearing my pajamas. He wearing his pajamas. It was all good. He had like seven pillows that he took with him everywhere. And he still to this date takes with him everywhere. Really? And we travel. He has like a whole collection of pillows. He has to just a trace with. We have a suitcase that's just filled with those pillows. Yeah. So that's it. And I think there is like the shame that's attached to that is like, oh, you are either co-sleeping with an infant or a bed sharing with a small child or a toddler or even, you know, an elementary school kid. People sometimes say, oh, really? And there is that sense of judgment that I felt and I wasn't really able to share much with people. Yeah. I don't think I knew that about. I don't think I knew you guys better shared until he was older. Did you get that more from your family or did you get it from other parents too? Like in your group? Well, I didn't share much with a lot of people. So mostly my family. Okay. Most of the family. You feel like you probably shouldn't share it with other people. That's true. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that there has been a lot of conversation about bed sharing and co-sleeping. I think a lot of the studies prove that kids that share beds with their parents longer or their family's longer. I mean, they grew up really well adjusted and attached and they feel confident themselves. I just I hate that we do that to each other. Like we put these limits on what's what's okay and not okay. Right. I hate that. Yeah. I love the fact that I'm able to share that. Now and I hope that other mothers, if that's something that you you feel that you're silently being judged about or if you are actually being judged about, you kind of just stand in your truth and be vulnerable with it and kind of just move forward. Yeah. I agree. I think one of the things about shame is that the only thing that for me, I'll just say for me, the only thing for me that removed shame or helps kind of eliminate it is saying it out loud. Yeah. Shining light on it. I really think that's the only thing that's been helpful to me is to say it out loud and have somebody say back to me like, you know, no judgment. You do you or I've did the exact same thing or I still love you just the same. There's no there's no shame. Oh, I love that. And that's kind of how you live your life and I appreciate that. We know because we can't ever really fully shame proof ourselves. It's true. But what we can do is just have strategies to become more resilient. And what you said is a great strategy. It's just speak out speak out and be truthful and be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So do you have one final story to share with us to a one final story? You know, we've talked about this a little bit. But I don't know. We talked about it around it in different ways. So, you know, I've shared in the past that when Gage was young, I got him into a ton of activities at one point. Like he was in a bunch, right? And probably too many. I had over corrected from my own, what I saw as a lack of my own childhood. And we pulled him out of a bunch of stuff. And I think for a while I had a shame about the fact that Gage didn't have like a passion, you know? Like I would meet these other parents and their kids would be like super into soccer and just going to be like the next soccer star or the or baseball or or math or you know, there's like it put like everybody's kids were picking something up really early and that was like their thing. And I had a lot of shame about if I wasn't pushing Gage enough or keeping him in things long enough for him to get attached to something. I just had shame about the fact that he was pretty laid back and easy going and not really like into one thing, really good at one thing. I felt like it meant something about me. Like I wasn't making that a priority for him. And I think I've kind of come around on that, especially he's gotten older and I've seen that, you know, I think I like that he's pretty well rounded and he's he's just kind of into what he's into when he's into it. Like I really love that about him. But for a long time, for several years there when he was between maybe like six and 10, I just really struggled with it. And I think my putting him into a bunch of activities and like trying things out all the time was me trying to like make him get into something, you know? And that was hard for me. Like I don't know where that came from. I think it just came from everybody around us doing that. And I think maybe like a little bit of like when I was a kid, I wish somebody had pushed me into something a little bit or kept me in something. So I think it was a combo of things. But I struggled with that for a really long time. I feel like I'm over it now because I can see now as he's getting older, you know, he's kind of he's kind of into a lot of different things. But I love that. Yeah, he's a well rounded kid and he's such a great kid. So thank you. You and your husband have done a lot of things, right? And I think it just took him a while to discover and find his passion, which is clearly by writing. Obviously, it just took you while to get around giving it to him. He learned it when he learned it. He needed to learn it. Clearly it's YouTube. YouTube is his passion. That my friend is a conversation for another day. 100%. One of our favorite humans and definitely one of your favorite humans, Terra, Brunei Brown wrote that if we can share our story with someone who responds with empathy and understanding, then shame can't survive. And so often we hide behind walls of shame. And I would just encourage and empower any mother who's listening who may feel mom shame either from within or from expectations from those around her to just pause and to realize that you are worthy and shame can't survive when you can just open your heart, open your mouth, open your mind, and move forward and faith in love. Well, that's beautiful. I'm kind of into the Brunei Brown. That's the perfect shame ending. Thank you guys for joining us this week. Make sure that you're following us on all of our listening platforms so you don't miss any new episodes. Go back and give that episode a Sarah Durham lesson. We really enjoyed that conversation. She has a lot of great things to say about coaching our kids as they get into their teens and finding them the right support. You can also come join us over on Instagram and @blackandwhitemomcast. We love having you each week and look forward to seeing you again next week. Absolutely. And pop into our DMs. Reach out, just let us know how you're doing on your motherhood journey. And if you ever need any words of encouragement, you can always reach out to us or just hear our hearts when we say we're rooting for you. So with that being said, Tara and I will be back next week. Same time, same place. Take good care. [Music]