Mom's Car: Liz Plank

Welcome to Mom's Car. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm BFAW. And today we have a very good friend of ours, Liz Plank. Of course, Liz, you know, what are you going to say about her? She's a genius. She's adorable. She's adorable. Liz is a Canadian journalist, an author, a media personality. She has an incredible book called For the Love of Men, From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity, and a podcast that's also great called Boy Problems. Most importantly, she's just the funnest person to dance with. She's so, so smart, and I love hashing out ideas with her. Please enjoy Liz Plank. This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking the dress code at the new restaurant, showing up in sandals and getting turned away at the door, no fun at all. Yeah, checking first is always a good move. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potentially. Savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by Uber Eats. Boom, boom, boom. In need of groceries? Uber Eats has you covered. From last-minute ingredients to weekly essentials, get groceries delivered in as little as 25 minutes with Uber Eats. Get groceries delivered with Uber Eats. Terms apply. See app for details. Now, let's get into the show. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. He'll just, we'll be at night. I'll be like, what's that? Like, I think it's a crumb, but it's like a branch. And he's like, oh, I just like that tree, like ceiling fans. Airplane buzzed his head. Airplane, he can't, he can't do anything. So you're bringing me immediately to one of my first conversation topics, which is I noticed the other day you had a post and it included him. It did, I know. And so I just had this whole 10-minute, like, not even in regards of interviewing you, but I was like, I didn't date in an era where you have a boyfriend, you've got to decide when. You're going to first post. Well, you know the difference between a soft launch and a hard launch. And I knew you would know all this stuff because I missed it all. And I want to know everything about this. Like, this must be a stressful part of early dating. It is. You're tapping into something so real because we had a fight. Like, I, about it. Do you have to go get the food? I do. I know, but Aaron does. Aaron gets the food and I deliver the food. Okay. Yeah, we split the duties. Okay. Yeah, I'll catch up when I get there. Okay, I can keep talking. I'll see you later. You guys have a great time. I did a soft launch. Okay. Which was just a story and his face was hidden. He's in the background, the BG. He's, it's like a full body mirror. We were like at Goodwill. Okay. And there was a full body, so I took a photo. Or he took the photo, so the phone was hiding his face. Oh. And so I did that, but I didn't say much and it was very vague. But before you motor through. Yeah. That decision probably came with some thought, right? Yeah, it did. It did. Because I've been burnt, you know. Burnt. Burnt. Burnt. I've been burnt. And I don't always have the best judgment. Sure. And so. That's what I like about you. Thanks. Nor I. People with good judgment can get fucking bent. Who cares? I mean, their lives are pretty boring. So boring. It has to be boring to always make the right decision. So I soft, soft launched and then we had a, we had a fight. Okay. A couple of days later about, you know, something unrelated. And I was like upset about something. And so I was crying and then I stormed the room. I was like, I can't believe I soft launched you. I'm an idiot. And I walked out. And I was like, I can't believe I soft launched you. Okay. So it's a real thing in a relationship. So you got in a fight and you were like, you regretted soft launching him. And I. Cause you're nervous. Like you're on this. We're going to break up. And I've done this where I've introduced them to my family. I mean, this is a very canon event for people dating right now. Yeah. Because dating is so up and down. Explain that term. You just said canon event. A canon event is you, you tell all your friends about someone you're really excited about. Oh, there's a bike. Okay. And you know. You know. Oh, he's stopping for you. This is confusing. This is all shit. He's coming to get that Thai breakfast. By the way, this is not breakfast. It's drunken noodles. Oh, okay. I mean, someone had a late night. And so you introduce all, you, you tell everybody about them. I mean, I've done that with you guys. Like, you know, you brought me on a date. Remember when you brought me on a date? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To a date and it did not work out. So, so. By the way. And then Matt led to earmark that. Earmark that. But there's this fear that I'm going to introduce this guy and I'm going to look like an idiot. And so not only. Embarrassment. Embarrassment. Right. Exactly. But it's funny because when I cried and I, and I left the room and I said that he was like, I didn't understand how much of a big deal that was. And like, I'm sorry. And then we had a whole conversation about that. Cause it was, it is big of a deal in his mind. No, no. Exactly. Like I'm assuming his business isn't tied in with his social media. I didn't even tag him. I'm afraid to like, even, I don't know. But you have a different relationship with it. I'm assuming. Cause it's part of your business. It is, but I've never posted a guy. I've really, I've never done this. So the stages are, you'll definitely go on a double date with Kristen and I, but you won't put it on Instagram. But you know what's funny? Can I tell you the truth? And this is going to sound like I'm just trying to blow smoke up your ass, but it's, it's the truth. I have spent time with you and Kristen and you are like relationship goals for me. And like, particularly like family goals, I think you have such a tremendous, silly and tender way to love each other. And I told my boyfriend at the time, I was like, this is what I've always like wanted like someone who, yes, I'm attracted to and like, we have amazing chemistry and all that stuff, but like a silly goofy time. Do you want to play while you're on planet earth? Like that's the declaration. Like, would you like to play? And now we have kids and it's like, Oh fuck. Now I got two more people to play with. Cause I am only here to play. This is all for fun. Why aren't we not? We're not having fun. We were literally talking about this last night. That's so funny. You say that. Yeah. It's so fun to find someone who has the same goal, which is like that. This is all for fun. Like we're all on a ride. We're all trying to stay busy till we're dead. I mean, literally that's what's happening. Yeah. Have the most amount of fun and laughs and giggles. It's so exciting when you realize you haven't been having fun for even weeks at a time and you're like, what am I doing? Like I just wasted all those weeks. Like it's not. I'm going to be dead in 30 hours. It's not this heavy. Yeah. Do you ever think back at like times where you were trying to make someone the one, you know, or again, you were like, or even with a friendship or not even just with a romantic connection where you're like, oh, this wasn't fun. And like, I was trying to make it into something. It's, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, um, all love and respect. Some people are very serious and that's what they enjoy. That's true. That's true. And that's great. And they can consternate it or whatever the word is. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So back to that. You've never shared a love. You've never shared a love or on social media and then you have this little fight and then how do we get from that moment to what I saw yesterday, which is like full blown face. No, there's no face. There's not. It's that's why it's a soft launch and not tagged and hard launches when now I want to like, now I want his handle. I would not want his handle other than now I know no one can have it. No one can have it. Yeah. I mean, maybe, maybe I don't think he has to earn it, but I, I want to know like, cause I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. When would you go full face with a tag? Are you engaged at that point? Really? Engaged? Oh, so what did you and Ruthie do? Cause Aaron, I think Aaron's got an interesting complexity to it, which is he's also divorced, right? Right. I don't know. Doesn't that, I feel like that adds to it. Like if you're blasting pictures, you and Ruthie before you're married and your ex-wife's like, Oh, he's like, like, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, she, well, yeah, that did happen. Wait, your ex-wife was married? Um, so she could look at Instagram and see that her ex-husband's now dating a woman that he's posting pictures of. Like, I don't have to consider that. Right. If I were single. Right. Well, now I would, but you know what I'm saying? Right, right, right. It's more complex. It did bring a complexity to it. Cause, uh, yeah, kids, we have three kids and they were, of course, younger, six years ago, five years ago. And yeah, I did blast, uh. Well, my aunt and you went quick. Not only did I blast off right away, um, Ruthie blasted off right away too. Okay, yeah. And, um. We were very excited. Very happy. Yeah, yeah. And, um. So it was a quick, hard, fast launch. What's the opposite of your slow launch? Or you're calling it a soft launch? Soft, soft, soft launch. So hard launch. Hard launch is face, like tagging, you know, but, but so what's the conversation you have with your ex-wife about hard launching or like, you know, hard launching with a new woman? Yeah. What's the conversation you have with your ex-wife about hard launching? I took it right to the level of, I said, I'm having my new girlfriend of two weeks. And I haven't met in person. No, we did meet in person. I take that back. And it was a couple months. I said, she's coming over and it was COVID. And, um, she was flying into town from California. Yeah. So I'm like, she's coming to stay with me. And my thought was cool. My kids get to meet someone fun. Like I didn't take it as serious as me. Maybe it was taken on the other end. So I had to look at it from her perspective and I'm like, Yeah, she had only known a dude for a. Yeah, and I'm like, well, like an asshole. I'm like, well, it's different with guys. Oh, okay. I don't. Why? That's fair. Yeah. That's fair. I think a new guy is more threatening to children than a new woman, historically, statistically. Yeah. Pedophilia-wise. Okay, risk, the risk. Yeah. Sure, sure. He has daughters. Sure. If we're just looking at odds-wise, do we think a boyfriend is going to abuse a child versus a girlfriend? Unfortunately, it's probably 12 to 1. Oh, probably more. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's totally right. That's totally right. Yeah, so that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's real. Yes, that there needs almost to be more of a vetting. Another unfair thing for women. Right, yes. You had another. Right. It's hard. Because I dated someone who was divorced with two girls, and it was a big deal about meeting them, and I never ended up meeting them, even though we dated for almost two years, because it was so. For them to meet a new woman, actually, because they're girls. I think the gender, even, of the kids also. Yeah. Yeah. If you had had two boys, it might have been different for some reason. That they would be harder. You know, it's every, like, romantic comedy from the 90s, like, you know, the evil sort of stepmom, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, that the girls feel in competition with, or, you know. Or we'll start modeling their dress and behavior after another woman. You're the mom. That's threatening, yeah. Yeah, that's true. I think in that situation, I would be like, you don't really have a say in whether or not I have someone visit me for a week. Yeah. You clearly have a. You have a say over whether the children are there. Yeah. So I would have said, like, yeah, if you don't want the kids to be around during that week, I understand. But also, I am entitled to meet someone and move on and have this week with somebody. Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, I think that's the right. Yeah, that is the right move. I just. I'm prone to jumping the gun. I would say if Aaron's most dangerous character defects is impatience at the very top of it. Yeah, I'm afraid it's not going to happen if it doesn't happen now. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, even purchases in life and stuff. Purchases. Like, any time he says he's going to go look at a motorcycle, I'm like, oh, in 20 minutes he's going to call me while he's riding the motorcycle. I don't think you've ever gone and looked at something and not left with it. No, I haven't. I've never been more confused than my entire existence. Oh, my God, you were picking something else up? I was, and I'm like, no, it says I'm delivering a little pink. She's like, I didn't order anything. It takes me five minutes to realize, no, I'm there to pick that up. Oh. Now, how are other people? Because you're so dialed into young people and what's that? I know, I'm not. I mean, that's serious. You are. Like, when I read your posts, I'm like, I'm educated every time I read one of your posts on what's going on. How are other people that are dating feeling about this? Like, when. Is there a standard when you post, when you don't post? Because it is embarrassing. I would imagine if I. And then I'll go even further. It adds yet another stressful layer, which is like, when do you say I love you? When are you introducing someone as a girlfriend or a boyfriend? And now on top of it, it's like, why aren't I ever in any of your photos? Oh, yes. Like, you have all your friends in it. You have that girl. You're not even dating her. And so when I imagine myself in this situation, and this might be anecdotal and specific to me, but I've always felt like the person wanted to declare stuff sooner. Oh, okay. Then you wanted to. Yeah, I just am very much like, let's, you know, let's not love addict out and go nuts and then there's nothing left in three months. So I don't know. I think I would be really. I think I would fucking quit social media if I was dating. I don't want to be hurting someone's feelings because they're not in a photo. Yeah, yeah. So what's standard? Are there. Are there standards? It's so funny you say that because it's making me realize why I have been so reluctant to do it is that I, when I first moved to the U.S., I moved with a guy. That's why I live here. I'm Canadian. So when I say I've never posted to anybody, I would post to him because it was early Instagram when like, no, it was just your friends. It wasn't like a public display and people weren't as much like, I don't know. We weren't as wrapped up in each other's like digital lives. It was like real life was more important. Yes. And now I think there's this weird reversal. But yeah. You're living for the digital life. Yes. It's really, anyway. Insidious. Yeah. Very, very pernicious and weird. But basically, I would post photos of him and us and like, just, you know, casually without thinking much about it. Yeah. Which like, oh my God, I wish we could go back to those days. Just when you would post on Instagram and like not think a million times about what people would say that you've done wrong, left out, like whatever. Yeah. And so I would post him and he would complain. I mean, this was a very, very. Toxic and abusive relationship. He ended up, he just got into a program. Okay, good. It took him like 12 years. But while we were together, there was no recognition of his drinking problem. But anyway, there were just a lot of issues in the relationship. Very controlling. And so it, but it came out in that way where he would be saying, I post photos where his neck was too small. Like he didn't look big enough. Okay. And I would be like, okay, I'll take it down. That's kind of on you. Which I'd be like, okay. And, but then he would insist that I would post too much about work. I would, I'd post about work more than I was posting about him. So he was very threatened by your career aspirations. Well, there we go. You nailed it. And so, and that was the gist of all, a lot of other toxic things that happened. Yeah. But it was this source of sort of stress. Yeah. And so I didn't, yeah. After that, I was like, I don't want to. And then when we broke up, I will say I was a little, maybe embarrassed is the word. Uh, I think, and this is a, this is a bold claim. Yeah. Tell me if I'm wrong. This is the place for bold claims. Okay. Perfect. Very few people watch. Okay. So, your definition of very little people is a lot of people. If you've ever killed somebody, this is the place. So, I think when you're dating a man, you're either going to become his wife or his ex-girlfriend. Okay. Like, and I think that it tends to be more embarrassing to be someone's ex-girlfriend than it is to be someone's ex-girlfriend. Like, I think that women are embarrassed by a larger portion of people that they've dated than, like, men. Where, like, men would be like, oh, yeah, I dated her. And, like, even things didn't work out. Yeah. I think societally, historically, there's been the, you can't keep a man. That's a very well-worn, you know, cliche. I don't hear a lot of, you can't keep a woman's. No. There you go. There's no, get me a wife apple pie. There's a, catch me a husband apple pie. Yeah. So, yeah, I do think there's this, like, implicit, can you keep a man? that and that it's your fault and then you couple in probably as well the um expectations that you should only be dating for marriage yeah and then if you're having casual things that also makes you a slut so i do think there's a lot in the soup yeah in our circle yeah that's bragging rights a dude who's had like 20 hot girlfriends in the last year and a half you're like well this guy's got some secret i need to learn yes and it increases his like value in a way like women do that well they'll you'll be like oh he dated this woman so he must be you know and so i've been riding on that for years i got sasha cross it in sixth grade and it's like it's just one led to another talk about the people he's dating was it like did it give him street cred for sure dude i really felt it in high school because in ninth and tenth grade i was persona non grata i was like so tall and skinny huge nose brand new high school out of a different school district nothing going on and then randomly this girl jody pittsburgh rest in peace she liked me and she was kind of the number one gal in our grade and then after that the door was wide open to me yes that'll do it yeah and because he had been honestly uh you know abusive i was like oh my god i don't want people to know i i hate that people know that i've dated him even not even publicly just like within the grapevine yeah because then a woman might start dating him and think he's great because you know she thinks you've co-signed on him yeah it's like you've co-signed him and then there's this fear of like well then you know that's why i think women particularly might be afraid to co-sign also okay there's another thing yeah if you tag him and all these women are now like oh my god this great guy you know all these photos of him bringing you matcha and working out with you and then you break up then all these women are gonna now try and date him and like you've sort of again you've made him hotter by being with him and then if you break up like now okay but now here's another fun interesting like yeah if you break up why do you give a fuck who dates him you're able to do that you don't want god yes i'm praying i'm praying any ex-girlfriend of mine immediately finds love really absolutely i'm feeling sad probably bad that we broke up right when brie and i broke up i was more concerned about her finding love than me ever finding love really oh god yes i'm like man we were together for nine years why do you think that that is because i love the person or i cared about the person and you know often that person wanted to be in a more i'm sorry oh man this is a mess this is a big time mess pick up another order i do my best stuff in front of liz i was telling aaron that that's how i farted in front of you the first time we met i felt so honored yeah that was like i've been begging my boyfriend to fart every time i hear a little thing like you fart he's like no and i'm like hilarious when are you gonna do it you would not have to beg aaron stay tuned for more mom's car we are supported by allstate checking allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance not checking your bag one more time before you hit the road you pack two days early you are proud of yourself you get to the hotel open your bag and you forgot your toothbrush and your toothbrush Yeah, checking first is an excellent idea. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate, North American insurance company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. He picks up, I deliver. Right, all right. And as you saw, it didn't go so well when I delivered. I promise I've had better luck. What has been like the craziest way someone has reacted? Oh, you know, I never see anybody. I mean, those ladies in that store definitely knew who I was. So they're double confused because I'm trying to give them food they didn't order. I'm supposed to be picking something up. And they know it's me. And so they know something kinky, weird is going on. So none of us can figure out what's happening. Yeah, because they're a little disoriented. But that's an anomaly generally because I deliver. It's almost always leave a door. Okay, so back to standard. What are other people feeling like and what are younger people doing? How long are they waiting? I saw a post. I took talk a couple of days ago. And this woman basically was arguing to never post your boyfriend. Okay. She was like, never post him. He's going to get clout. He's girls are going to like him more. It's just like they're only downsides. But I think that men are on better terms with their exes than women are in terms of their exes. Like, I will say, I think a lot of my exes would say, like, she's a great girl. And like, she's great. And I kind of have other feedback. It sounds exhausting, Liz. I know. And maybe it's because I've also, I have a bad picker. I think women in general like projects more than maybe men do when they're dating. Like, I think a man will meet a woman, be like, it's either like a hell yes or hell no. And they'll kind of know right away. And women will kind of keep going and try and find or fix certain things. Right. Or have the fantasy that they will turn them into the person they wanted. Yes. What do you got here? I don't even know what I'm taking. Let's see. Okay. That's that little bag I picked up. It's a little bag. Yeah. What are your thoughts? You've had Gen Z guests. I try my hardest to resist saying they're this or that because I think what you're really seeing is like, it'd be easy to let a very small number of people that are very active on social media inform what's going on. And then I'm around in Nashville and I'm looking at young people and I'm like, they don't reflect at all what I'm seeing. This was actually another topic I wanted to talk about with you. I feel like you're perfect to ask about. This is where I am over, I can tell I'm overreacting, but with that said, you know, there's these headlines now. You know? Is it embarrassing to have a boyfriend? Yeah. There seems to be like this very, to me, concerning movement that is masquerading as feminism. That is like, to be empowered is to not want a man. Yeah. And that scares the fuck out of me. Like, I really think like, oh, when the last of us are dying out of extinction, we try to trace back, how did this happen? Yeah. I feel like we're at this point where we're so focused on the political polarization, I think there's massive gender polarization right now. And I do find it concerning and even me saying it's concerning to me, like when I'm talking with Monica, she's angry about that, that I think like, oh, so every woman's got to get married and have kids. I'm like, no, I'm not saying that, but I am saying we were designed to live a certain way, which is not alone. Yeah. Um, we're not solitary animals and this just, to me, looks like more and more solitary living and, and I, I know it scares me. So. Yeah. Do you think this is a real thing? Yeah. I mean, I've been single for a really long time and I wasn't happy single and I didn't relate to some of the content, uh, online, which is like, you don't need a man and invest in cats and female friendships, like as much as that's wonderful, like I really wanted a relationship. I, and so when we talked about that, it did make me like reflect on that ideal and, and, and whether it really was an ideal that I was seeking and if that was a good ideal for us as a society. We're often only looking at one side of the equation, which is like, does, does a woman need a man? Yes. Does a man need a woman? Yes. Like the bottom line is men benefits so greatly from having a female they're committed to. Like it brings out much better sides of them. They can learn so many things from women. And this is a discourse out there, right? Like that the ROI for men dating women is high. The ROI. Oh, return on investment. You know, men will have more success. Men will have more social relationships. They'll be healthier. They'll live longer. Like there's ultimate benefits. And for women, the ROI is not as good that women don't actually like the healthiest, you know, sort of demographic of people are, are unmarried women. They actually will live longer. They'll have more time for their social relationships. They'll spend less time working and doing domestic work for me anyways. Both are true. Yes. I want a relationship. Yes. I want to be with a partner. I don't want to be alone scrolling on my fucking phone on Netflix. I'm so allergic to cats anyways. I can't have cats. Yeah. And, and I also don't want to be with a guy who's going to make my life shit, right? Like this first guy I'm talking about that like ruins my life and is controlling and jealous. And so I think what's happening is what's always happened throughout history is that like women are weeding out the good guys. Like they are like, I don't want to be with a guy who's not going to improve my life. And unfortunately I think that is very unsettling because I'm not sure that has ever really happened. In our lifetime. Correct. Right. And we know we can chart out where that goes quite pretty easily and we can model that out pretty easily. Where, where that goes. Sure. That goes to the death of our, which might be fine. Well, if you think about it, that's what women have always done because women didn't reproduce with all men. They reproduce with a small subset of them. Right. Like whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so very few people had access because women are cheesy and that's why we got better as a species. And like, that's why we, we evolved in the way that we evolve. Again, I would like to think that what's happening right now, if we don't go in the dark version of it, which is like men are shit and like men are, don't even, you know, be in a relationship with any guy, unless that's what you want to do. And that's fine. Yeah. Like, I, I think if it's actually the middle of that, you know, and both those things being true, that sort of leads us to, I mean, in my opinion, like ultimate wellbeing, you know, that like men are improving to get chosen, right? Like, like you want to get chosen. So you're going to brush your hair, you're going to shower, you're going to have a nice apartment and get a bed sheet and two pillows, you know, and then, but like, don't be mad at women because we're cheesy because like, that's how we all improve and that's how we all got here. You know? But when you said that a couple of years ago, like it did make me connect with this hardwired. Yeah. Like, like it's like oxygen, you know, like connection and building something with someone. Yeah. It's like a biological need and, and sort of desire. And then you just get into, and you can almost not have this conversation because any time you bring it up, it's somehow baby shaming. But if you want to have a child, there's, you know, overwhelming data on what's the best scenario for a child to grow up and it's, it is to not, that's not to say a single mom or dad can't do a great job. They can. Yeah. But the overwhelming, you know, data says that it's best done with a single mom or dad. Yeah. It's best done with two people. And that experience I've had them all. That's the thing. I've had all the great experiences. I've gotten to be famous. I've gotten to have money. I've gotten to meet all the famous people of, you know, traveled the world. None of them even compares to these, this experience of getting to give everything I've acquired to other human beings, which are our children. Yeah. That experience for me. Yeah. If I had to pick on my deathbed, what I missed? I would say, I would say. I would definitely miss being famous, miss being successful, miss being anything I would hold onto. That would be the last thing I would ever let go of. It's such a special experience and it's so suspiciously satisfying that what it tells me is like, oh yeah, it's me doing the thing I was designed to do, which is reproduce. Like all animals take us out of it. All animals have singular jobs. It's like to stay alive, to reproduce. Yeah. So it's just, it's kind of weird how much biology we have that kicks in once you start having your offspring. And it's like, it becomes quite obvious, like, oh yeah, minimally this is what I was designed to do. It's my only purpose here, you know. So then how do we get there with this other trend and maybe that's how it is and I got to accept it. Like if the ROI for women is lower, then I understand then don't do it. And then, but if we're measuring the quality of your life by whether you live 0.1 or two years less or more versus the experience. The experience while you were here. And I can only speak for observing my wife. She feels the exact same way as I do about this child thing. She would give up a million frozen's to have this experience. So that's got to somehow make its way into the ROI, you know, the evaluation of the return on the investment. For sure. And here's the thing, right? You said studies are just generally two people is better than one, right? Like two people raising a child is going to be a better experience. We should be raised by 12 people. Well, that's what I was going to say. In the Paleoethics era, it was 12 people. Yes. And that's what we should do. Yes. You know, cause I get up early, I go and write in coffee shops and I'll often notice it's, it's often moms. Okay. That are in coffee. It's writers and moms. Okay. And they'll be there with their toddler. They're tired and the toddler will be walking around and everyone's sort of entertaining the kid. Okay. If you're in a good situation and you'll be like, and the mom is just tired. I want her to have her phone time. I want her to get a break. And I'm like, oh, this is what it used to be like. Yes. Like she didn't take care of the human being from morning to night for the next, right? 10 years while being, having a job while doing whatever. And so I think that we have to make motherhood more collective. collective and then women will want to do it and that's why the roi sucks for women because we stopped doing it as a team exactly but again i agree with you a thousand percent and we're charting it so okay we started as it took you needed at least 40 other people around you just to survive then the agricultural revolution happened and now you really only needed your extended family to subsist right so now we were down to 10 people yeah and then the industrial revolution happened and now we're in single family houses and you only need the immediate family and now the tech revolution now only one it only takes one person to survive and so that trajectory has not been good for us i agree i whole hardly agree so it's like i don't know how we go back to 12 people raising the kid but i know going even further down to less people agreed we need to have been designed differently for that to feel i totally she's standing outside by the way she got it in time for lunch she kind of knew i guess she knew yeah do we have more stuff we do we got one more okay great but no i love where we arrived oh i just love this because it's like this never happened before but again now then i zoom out yeah and i also think i might be completely over inflating the issue i mean a no we do we do see that the birth rate is dropping dramatically yeah but what's interesting about that and a bit misleading which was comforting and that's that is true for all western democratized industrial nations that the birth rate falls again you don't need a bunch of family members to work the farms then naturally it's going to fall this huge spike we're seeing by an enormous drop in the teen pregnancy rate right which is fantastic yeah that's really what we're seeing yeah we don't really know have we leveled out are we still declining just you know once people are in their 20s and i'm praying that that's the case right unfortunately i'm here to tell you it just hit this week i think there's gonna be a majority of young women not teenagers like 20s and 30s who will be now child free it'll be the majority of young women okay and again and that's 2030 so that's scary again for me right out of the just on face value but then you got to consider well we also have a new technology in the mix which is you can freeze so you can delay that yeah and are we only seeing that so we'll just see an explosion in our 30s we never saw that will offset the decline in our 20s maybe i mean i know it's an expensive endeavor yeah currently yeah people can't afford it it's yes right like even aoc but more and more women are professional you know the college you know all the male abysmal yeah yeah yeah yeah they're not in you know women are in college they are making more money they are getting increasingly able to freeze their eggs and do these things yes that's true and here's like my thing like dax like i wanted kids like so badly yes uh and last year especially i was 38 you know froze the eggs i had the whole thing and i was getting really close to 40 now i'm getting 40 in like six months but i thought i met the guy yeah and he really really really wasn't um he deceived the whole thing and it was basically was like we're not going to be able to we're going to be we're going to have kids you're going to move in and then he was like actually i want an open relationship you know just like fucking like east side la hipster shit okay and after that i just was like maybe i'm not going to have kids in this particular environment sure 10 years ago i would have i would have done it and yeah like am i i guess i don't even have a point i'm just is that bad so i think this new awareness is healthy and yes women have been subjugated and yes the roi has been bad but what i think it has led to is a little bit of scrutiny of who they're going to date i do think people are looking for the perfect person well for sure two things about that a the perfect person doesn't exist yeah b if you think the person's perfect when you meet them there is on a single direction this is this can go yeah yeah they can only get less and less perfect right like i met kristen she was a vegetarian who did communal living and was a christian who believed in jesus and went on to raise her kids with the bible those are fucking deal breakers for me um not being a vegetarian but just like that's incompatible with what i want to go out to eat and blah blah blah sure she's living with 12 people yeah and i'm like i don't want to live with 12 people like there's a numerous things that were uh not preferred in kristen yeah and through growing together and towards each other yeah i like her way more now 19 years in than i did when i met her and what a better trajectory like leave some places to grow yes yes and guess you're not fucking perfect the arrogance of that you need someone perfect yes who the fuck is perfect to say that they deserve someone perfect totally and by the way i'm a dude and when she met i'm jumping out at stoplights and fighting a guy once a month right right she doesn't want that she deserved better than that right i had only been in an open relationship right that's you know by today's standards that girl no way you know on the internet they'd be like run this guy's violent and aggressive and he's fucking all over the place and i'm like i don't want to live with and guess what we're way more the people we wanted totally over time i think that that is definitely going on i think it's this over you know particularly since covid again people are just spending more time alone and they're spending too much time thinking and not enough time doing you know a lot of times self-improving instead of just being the best way to improve yourself as you point out is to be in a relationship and i do think we are trying to be the perfect partner and i had that i mean when i started dating my my boyfriend like i was like i don't know i don't i would call my friends who are married not my not my single friends because i know what advice i'm going to get from my single friends he's doing that oh that's toxic and that's and then my married friends are like let me tell you like like you know this is a we've had this fight a hundred times yeah and being in a relationship is hard and it's amazing but like if you are entering a relationship thinking yeah you're going to find the perfect partner and you're the perfect person it's actually going to show you yeah a lot of places if you're doing it right it's going to actually show you the perfect partner and you're the perfect person it's actually going to show you the places you need to grow but that yeah requires discomfort it requires uh vulnerability and i think that those things are on the down you know yeah it's a weird environment stay tuned for more mom's car we are supported by uber eats do you love cooking but dislike having to find parking and wandering aisles trying to remember if you're actually out of certain ingredients because same the good news is you can skip the grocery run and have what you need delivered in a single day as little as 25 minutes with uber eats shop fresh produce pantry essentials and all that everyday good stuff from your favorite grocery stores whether you're stocking up for the week grabbing a few essentials or getting ingredients for tonight's dinner uber eats makes grocery shopping easy less time shopping more time for everything else and you don't even have to put your shoes on so many wins get your groceries delivered with uber eats save 20 off your first order of 60 plus code mom's car 20 terms apply see app for details let me deliver this real quick this is so yummy i liked what you guys said when you said the roi on the women or not the return isn't as much i was like oh my gosh and i'm like yeah i can see that how did dating ruthie improve your life she is so much like dax that um yeah like he knows this i was like there's no way i found a female version of dax and it's not that insane but no i said the same thing about my boyfriend yeah i was like he's female my best friend yeah they're so similar that's so funny yeah it's wild and guess what ruthie makes my life better every day because she doesn't oh she does tell me how it is yeah um and i'm still very standoffish about that you are wait tell me more about that i feel like guys they want to be challenged but then when you challenge them they get mad yeah i'm really bad at it what i'm good at now though is coming around very quickly and um apologizing and meaning it i think women get triggered in so many ways like sure but i do think men there's a it's almost like you feel caught off guard i feel embarrassed yeah yeah we're talking about ruthie i said um that she's a lot like you in a lot of ways in the way that my life and proves by being around both of you and you both say things to me that you're sincerely trying to better my life or maybe just putting something else out there like oh well maybe um and you're both so delicate with me because that's how i need to be treated um but i do a sense that i love you but i still am standoffish ruthie and i's first tension was we went into a gas station and both of us were getting the stuff we know aaron likes is that a road you imagine a road trip up north and then we were both like we're gonna figure out who's taking care of aaron yeah like i love to nurture and care for aaron like more than anything and so does she i was like oh my god she's like are you the girlfriend am i the girlfriend yeah that's my god i've been the girl for a long time i was like wait who do i have sex with one will leave me very sore and the other won't what should i do well let me also say like men are terrible well that's the thing we're terrible we're both terrible in different ways and i can own how we're terrible terrible and and but i don't think women are as much of a threat to men that men are a threat to women that's totally fair and i think that's what makes it really challenging and i'll say like after that happened to me last year i got ruthless with dating first sign of a weird thing you know not in a rude way but i just cut things off really quickly And in a way, I think I met this amazing guy that I'm dating now who's truly like feels like soulmate level. Like even though it's only been three months, I'm like, we are it's like what Aaron said. Actually, he's like Ruthie's a lot like Dax. I was like, oh, that's what I said about my boyfriend. I was like, oh, you remind me of like my best friend, like female version. And so I feel so lucky to be with a man who's amazing. And I think it was because I did own my part. And my sponsor did. Like I'm in program. Like, yeah, she was like, pray for him. And I was like, pray for him. And she, you know, so I have been working on my part and I think you are right. I think both things are right. I think it's hard when women are told, why aren't you finding a guy? Why aren't you getting married? But also all men are terrible. And then you're like, well, which one is it? Right. Well, how do I how do I do it? You know, it's hard. But look, all men are terrible. Not for us. Right. Like it doesn't bother us to say that. Your terribleness doesn't bother us when we're together. Men aren't troubled by each other's terribleness. Right. And equally, women are terrible. Your terribleness is not. You guys don't. You're not annoyed by your terribleness within your gender. Sure. That's. Yeah. So we got to make it work. That's the other thing is like, I don't think anyone walks into it with an appropriate expectation of what this is like. We're pretty different. Yeah. And we're going to try to make this thing work. And that's going to be hard. Yeah. You know, that's going to be tricky. Yeah. But no, they're terrible. Like we were watching this great comedy. It's not out yet. This new Jake Johnson. The quote. Wait, what? It's so good. It's so good. You're going to fucking love it. It's called The Sun Never Sets. And it's like an older guy dating a younger woman. And he already has kids. And he's saying, you know, just, you know, I'm not going to have kids. He's always been up front. They're not going to have kids. I'm not going to get remarried. Yeah. And then he can tell she's really starting to want that. And she's got a friend who's pregnant. And he's like, look, I love you. I would do this forever. But I think you need to take the summer and see if you can find the thing you want. Right. And on the surface, like, it's great. It tricks you. I'm like, yeah, this guy is being very generous. But he's certain she's going to go out there and see a bunch of bozos and come back and do the program he wanted to do forever. So she goes out there and then she does. She has these terrible days. She wants to be with him. Then she bumps into her ex-boyfriend who's been out of town for three years. And now it's kind of fucked up. Now she starts hanging with him and sleeping over this. And then once Jake finds out that's happening, he's like, hold on. You were at your ex-boyfriend's. I want to have a baby with you more than ever. Let's get married. Right. So he just completely flips because he can't. He can give you. I can give you. Yes. I'll give you everything. I'll go camping. I'll be outdoors. You know, all this, everything. And so then he flips. And then so he's a mess. And she's now into the boyfriend. So then he's forced to start dating. So then all of a sudden he's dating someone his age. And he likes her kind of a lot. And then she freaks out. He freaks out and flips. And it's just this. It's such an honest portrayal of like how lost bias fucks us up so much. And what they keep showing both these men do, which is universal. It's like, that's not my thing. I don't like going to art shows. Hanging out with your friends isn't my thing. And just men with their it's not my thing and their unwillingness to be a slightly uncomfortable or try something new or do anything that they haven't figured out how to do. Yes. It has to be. Until we lose them or about to lose them. Or you get better for the next girl, right? Like totally. It's the way people do AA. It's the way I did AA. It's like what you're supposed to do. You're going to go to meetings, read this book, have a sponsee blank or the steps. Like, I'll admit I'm powerless. I'm not fucking with the God thing. I do 20% of it. And guess what? I'm fucked up for three months. And I come back and I go, you know what? I'll do 40% of it. Works for three months. Then I'm fucked up. And then eventually I go, okay, I'm going to do all the fucking things. Totally. Because I don't want to die. Totally. Totally. Totally. But yeah, we're the worst, right? We're the worst. I think men don't necessarily understand the depth of the heartbreak and the harm that love, again, love, mommy, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. I mean, there are biological things, especially if you have sex. Like if we have sex with you, then we're feeling, there's a hormone. Yeah. You're releasing oxytocin and I'm not. Yeah. Exactly. I think there's a physical thing we never talk about. Like you're literally inside of me. Like it's a different thing. Yes. It's a different thing physically. Yes. I agree. And so I. You've invaded my body. Yeah. Like what you say with Aaron, if you have sex with Aaron versus Ruthie, like it's different. Yeah. And so I think that maybe for a lot of men, they don't understand why love bombing is so pernicious because they can't even maybe imagine how painful it is because they don't have all of this. But then there's also this fascinating data, right? That men, well, A, women break up with men more than men break up with women. That's an interesting thing. Men tend to carry it longer than women do. Carry the heart. The heartbreak longer. Oh, really? Okay. They tend to move on less well than women do. Right? So it's like, this is why I'm saying it's like, stop the, you guys are terrible and we're the, it's like, no, it's a, it's a hard and messy, confusing thing. And it's, and, and, and our hard wiring is, is set up against us in a lot of ways. And everyone's got to transcend that. And we have different bodies. I mean, I do think these things are real. The risk of pregnancy, the risk of, again, when we're falling for each other, when we're having sex, I think that's where like gender neutral dating advice. Doesn't work because it is going to be different for the woman than it is for the man. And that's why I do tell women wait to have sex. I mean, that was one of the first advice I got. And by the way, yes. If you want to date a dude, that is the move. And then you could go like, oh, so women can't be horny. No. Yeah. Have a dude. You fuck. Get a vibrator. Get a vibrator or have a, have a fuck buddy. Right. For sure. I think you and I talked about this before. I heard this psychologist saying like, there's three categories. One night stands. And then there's booty calls that last for months or years. Right. And then there's relationships. Yeah. And really the only damaging one is the middle. So yeah. Fuck if you're horny. I think women should fuck if they're horny. Yeah. And then if they want, there's a guy they want to be with. And yes, I think probably. Although look, Kristen, I fucked immediately. I get it. So also there's that. Relatable. Okay. How do you think? I think another thing that is really different between the genders is I think women have a lot more fantasy around relationships. And I don't think men have much fantasy about relationships. Yeah. And I think. I think that's one of the big issues on the table. Yeah. What do we think about that? But here's why. Right. Like, it's not just the marriage. It's you're getting pregnant. They're going to, there's a guy that's going to come inside of you, create a human being with you. Like there, it, we, we do have, I mean, I can speak to this on a physiological level when I was 38 from 35 to 38, I was a, I was a horn bag. Yeah. Like I just was, I felt, I want to take, but even the way I was having sex, it was like, well, it was addicting, right? For sure. For sure. And I was working through that. Yeah. But I also think that there's a real physiological urge to reproduce for me anyways. Yeah. And, and again, if you're a woman, you are incentivized. And this is, if you go back in evolutionary, you need to find a man who will take care of you, who will take care of your baby, who will provide and who you can survive and who will give the best chance for your baby to survive. You wouldn't be here if that's not how it had been done before we got here. Yeah. We are the product of that. I am. Yeah. Of my mother choosing well and my dad being what all of those things. Well, just look at the data of viewership of romantic comedies. I mean, it's like, you know, I don't know the numbers, but 90, 10, right? Guys aren't even really, no, they're not fantasizing about the meet cute and all that stuff. Yes. So that's a huge gap between us. Like how do we bridge that gap? I think it's, again, we have so much more at stake to risk and it's just the investment is bigger. It's the risk reward of it all. I've heard of it all. And so women are approaching dating in a very different way if they're smart. But again, that might be vestigial. So we have so many vestigial things that we're still dealing with and they're not even material anymore, right? Like, yeah. Like, do you really need a perfect provider? No, but your body thinks so. I guess the point I keep coming back to this of the risk of choosing the wrong partner. If you're a guy is big, right? Like it's love is always high stakes. If you're a woman and you're choosing the wrong partner, though, there's just a lot of a lot more that can happen. And there's a lot of a greater, again, you could be stuck with the bill a lot more than a guy. Exactly. Yeah. And that comes back to the advice you're giving, you know, your daughters around, like, be careful. Don't, I don't know if guys have to be as careful. Yes, we both have our parts, but I think that we have to recognize that it is not an equal playing field. Like men and women coming onto the dating scene, there's just not going to ever be that men will never know what it's like. And I think this conversation, like this is what you don't find. Like the nuance of it all of, yes, each and the good faithness, right? Like, I love you. You are very, very smart. I assume you have the ability to give me a perspective I don't yet have. And I imagine you're able to listen to my perspective without feeling attacked. No, it's helped me a lot. Yeah. I love talking to you because we do sometimes look, we're similar, yet you're also a female and I'm a male. So I'm naturally protective of this group of dudes who's dying at mass rates. For sure. And I'm like, and then you're justifiably concerned about all these women who are being fucked with and abused. Yeah. I love you, Liz. You're so fun and smart. Yeah. I love you guys. I thought we were just going to fart around and we're just going deep. We don't ever fart around. Fart, fart, fart, fart, fart, fart, fart, fart. All right. Love you. Love you more. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance, not checking that your phone was backed up before you upgraded. The guy at the store said, you're all set. And well, you believe it. them, only to open your photos and they're gone. Yeah, checking first is a good plan. Allstate, North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.