‘Mole people’: A viral photo, media ethics, and the cost of visibility

I definitely resent my use of the term "Mall People", but I think it also permitted the story to go viral, right? The choice of words there allowed it to be something that resonated with people and the correct people to have it go viral. But I deeply, deeply resent the use of that term because I feel like that just kind of escalated it and then also kind of pigeonholed these people as, "Okay, they live in the sewers," right? I did not like that, especially after speaking to a few of them that are in that community. A few weeks ago, an image of a woman emerging from a canal in Makati went viral online. It sparked headlines, social media debates, and even a government response. She was called Sadako in "Inquirer," a mystery woman in "Failstar," and the subject of speculation about so-called "Mall People" in James' prime time news. But behind the memes and metal covers is a much more human story. Welcome to Tech Attack on News, I'm Kate Perbano. Joining us today is William Roberts, a hobbyist photographer who captured the viral image and went back to listen to the people behind it. His Reddit posts did not just document a moment, it triggered a national conversation. William, thank you for being with us. Thanks, Kate. That was a great intro. So just to kick sort things, could you tell us a bit about yourself, what did you do and how did the photography become part of your returning? So I guess to kind of dispel a few of the speculations about me. So I used to be a filmmaker. I used to make films here, but now I work as a, well, I don't want to disclose the actual function because it'll be super easy to find out who I am. But I work in software, I work in software now. And street photography or photography in general has always been with me ever since I was a kid. My dad actually was a photojournalist, he was a photojournalist for Manila Times way back when in I think the '60s and the '70s. For you grew up with it and it's like, yeah, my passion. And then so let's dive right in, you posted about the story of BB or Rose on reddit soon after. So we want to know of course what made you decide to share it there. And did you expect it to gain the kind of traction that it did? Obviously, I didn't expect it to kind of catch on that much. I didn't really have any, I guess, William Roberts, the name that I made or the persona I made. He doesn't really have a lot of platforms, except for reddit and maybe Instagram. So I was like, yeah, let's post it on reddit and then kind of forgot about it, just wrote down what I experienced, how I felt, and then went to sleep just the next day, it blew up. So it was the day after. So from reddit, it went to front page news, mostly online. So what was it like watching it unfold? And especially for you, as you mentioned, you woke up and then broke loose. Yeah, no, it was weird because I just wanted to, like with most of the things that I do, I just wanted it to tell a story, right? To me, that was just a weird encounter, right? And I guess the more, this was just the day after it, like that's May 27th. I feel it was weird to see it kind of capture the nation's attention. So it was the first time that your post went viral. A post? Yes, something I made not necessarily the first time that it went viral, but yeah, it was weird now or it was weird then, because I didn't know how to handle all of that anonymously. It was easier to do it when it was, you know, who my real name and when it was me, it was way easier back then. But went with William Roberts with this anonymous kind of like persona that I made. It's so much harder. There's so many more rules I can't be as brash or I guess outspoken as I usually am personally. So I had to be careful. But yeah, no, that was definitely weird for the first day. And then the next few days when I followed it up with the story about the cops not letting people record and then kind of patching up the canal itself so quickly as if, you know, as if it was like a dire need for the city. Even though it's been reported, it's been happening for months or even years. It was just funny to me to see all of that, right? Let's talk about some specific media angles or headlines, like, for example, more recently from the South China Morning Post, they tried to go deeper into the homelessness issue. And then, as mentioned earlier, inquire, calling her Orbede or Rose Sadako or Jim A framing it as sort of a urban legend. So among all these coverages, what landed well for you and what didn't? Honestly, I think a lot of the more reputable news outlets that reach out to me attempted to kind of give the humanity that I wanted for the story. I know their first stories just with the initial set of photos was, oh, my God, what is this? What is that? And then, of course, with the follow-up of the second and the third post where I got to talk to the people, the community itself, they tried to, or the, like, let's say Rolling Stone or, yeah, Phil Star. And even, yeah, to some degree, South China Morning Post, they were able to add back the humanity of the narrative, which I feel like was desperately needed there. Right? I started. The reason why I went back was, or why I sought out to communicate with the people, because I did not like the narrative that was being spun up, that these were, uh, drugs, snatchers or crazy people or, um, them being turned into memes, I mean, although that helped, bringing more light to the story and to the actual issue, uh, I didn't like the negative connotation or the attribution to, uh, their lives and their livelihood. But, um, in your opinion, uh, for those, uh, the majority of the media outlets, um, they shed more light on it rather than, you know, shifted away the narrative from the people involved. Exactly. Definitely, that's, uh, that's, I'm glad that they did. So moving on to, uh, the intent and impact as you've already, um, started discussing, uh, once the story exploded, what do you think, uh, the broader impact turned out to be? Well, you did say it at the start where it did spark a national conversation. We did capture headlines and news feeds for a while. I guess that's good that we, we brought, we were able to bring intention, uh, at least unintentionally on my end, uh, to a housing crisis that's been happening all around, uh, the Philippines, not just in the zone or in Guatemala, but everywhere else, right? Um, people have started to question more and then act more with, uh, genuine empathy, which is something I called for in every single interview, uh, I've given, uh, uh, a call for genuine empathy amongst the citizens and civilians, uh, and even the politician, every stakeholder to have a genuine empathy. Yeah. I wanted to mention that, uh, is to ask, if you ever imagine that it would also spark that kind of government reaction, uh, as we all know by now, or most of us know that, um, Vivi or those received some cash aid, uh, as soon as the story went viral. Exactly. Uh, I didn't expect that, although I did, um, anonymously call the SWD, um, I did anonymously, uh, reach out to, uh, and also I wanted to find out more about, uh, these, um, drainages, uh, by reaching out to, uh, MMDA, uh, with a 2005 Japanese study, but I didn't expect it to, um, I mean, it, it's funny that it feels like it's the cover, they did, uh, a few of these agencies did certain things, instead of, you know, trying to solve, uh, the root of the problem where it, where, where, where it's systemic, right? It's not just, okay, let's, let's provide assistance to this one person. The, the main problem is a lot of these people, um, that they've been trying to provide assistance to are, um, do not trust the government because a lot of them were displaced by the government, right? A lot of them got displaced because of existing government projects or projects that were being proposed and, um, wherever their informal settlements were, uh, they'd have to be tear down, right? Like right now there's something big happening, something similar happening in, in Tundou, uh, where government little, uh, informal settlements are, are being torn down for, uh, to make way for government projects. And I think that, that it's a noble, what DSOB did, right? It's a noble thing to do, um, but I feel like it's reactionary, just like how the covering up of the canal, of the one canal was reactionary, right? And covering up, again, this is something I feel bad about covering up the, the botanical garden where most of them were staying, right? I feel like it's all a reactionary and they're, I've yet to see a press release, a, a proper press release from, uh, the Makati LGU talking about the, the entirety of, or the issues, uh, and what their plans are moving forward, right? I like your choice of word, which is reactionary because, um, some media outlets have, um, or, like some commenters, uh, use the word, uh, performative. So in your case, you would either go for reactionary, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I think it's, it's, it's, um, it's better, uh, it's kind of giving benefit of the doubt to the LGU's, because again, uh, to, yeah, to the LGU's and then the other government agencies, because, um, they're still trying to do their job, right? There, there, there are people too. They're, they're nice people, uh, as far as I've, uh, with the people that I've, um, kind of, uh, interacted with and that I know, uh, it's just that the system itself, uh, does not, uh, reward a certain output that would be beneficial to society. It rewards an output that would be beneficial to certain individuals, right? That's, that's how the system is rigged and that's how it's set up. So I, I'd rather use reactionary kind of removing a little bit of the blame and, and, um, removing a little bit of, uh, malicious intent away from these stakeholders. Yeah. Think through that because, um, when poor, most of the coverage is, I think that it's, some of them are like, uh, frame in a way that it's just a black and white situation. So I think that with your, for example, with this, um, use of a different term, I think that, uh, opens up more nuances. Okay. So it's been, I think more than three or four weeks since, um, your images went viral and you, uh, everything has been said and done from your side. You've done your follow up. You've done some interviews. So I wanted to ask you if, um, if the media had done better, what would that have looked like for you? I think the media did what it could, right? I think the accountability part is, I think it's solely, or at least a big part of it rests on my shoulders because, because what if I didn't post that, um, right? What if I didn't post the, the one about the botanical garden with that have, um, prevented these people from being displaced, right? Um, I think, I think what I lacked, I don't think there's anything that, uh, any, any media outlets maybe, um, the tabloids, those, those ones and the meme pages, for sure, they, the, the, the news, quote unquote, they put out lack context and nuance, but a lot of the more reputable ones, I don't think they lacked, uh, in their generalistic duties. It's, it's really on me, um, that I feel like I, I, I lacked, uh, I, I felt like, I rushed a few things. I felt like I approached this as if it was a script, which I am used to writing, uh, that's how I'm used to writing, uh, I, I, I, I approached it with two, three, uh, barely three layers of due diligence, uh, in terms of the, uh, the, the, the factual accuracy of, of the people I talked to, what they said, right, and the people involved. So I think it's more on my side, right? I, I feel like if I just sat on it, sat on it a little bit more, if I asked more questions before putting anything out, I think, I think the, the, the way that we would have, we would have all received this would have been different. Yeah, that's something that I wanted to bring up earlier, because, for your first post, I think the subject that you use was mole people question mark, right? And like in hindsight, uh, would you have changed that, um, subject, that choice of words or what do you think? I definitely resent, um, my use of, of the term, mole people, but I think it also permitted the story to go viral, right? It, the, the, the choice of words there, um, allowed it to be, it, be something that resonated with, with people and, and, and, and, uh, the correct people to, uh, to, uh, to have it go viral. Um, but I deeply, deeply resent the use of that term, because I feel like that just escalated it and then also kind of pigeonhole these people as, okay, they live in the sewers, right? I did not like that, especially after speaking, uh, to a few of them that are in that community. And, uh, as you mentioned, like, it's not like you planned it to become viral. Like, I think you were genuinely just asking, are these mole people? Because you were genuinely curious or, uh, wanted some answers. So, um, now that you, after you've experienced it on hand, uh, I wanted to ask your opinion on what, uh, more ethical storytelling, uh, it looks like, especially when reporting on poverty or displacement. I think I'm not the, the best person to ask this, uh, a lot of the, but I think it's that, right? It's what I said earlier where just multiple layers of due diligence, right? Setting the sides of the stories from every angle, um, surprisingly, I, again, I do want to call out, I think the best, um, best journalism that has eight that was able to cover this that was from rolling stones, Philippines. So, again, surprising. I'm like, I didn't even know they had that, that, that department that could cover this. Um, they were able to, they were the first ones to talk about, uh, the housing crisis. And, uh, homelessness as part of the narrative, they were the first ones to kind of humanize, uh, the individuals here and, and not sensationalize, uh, what's been happening, right? I think that's, that's, that's, um, that's going to be part of them, I guess, uh, uh, uh, my limited advice or my limited knowledge advice, uh, of, of ethical storytelling where multiple levels of due diligence and, I guess, allowing yourself to, to include all sides of the story. But, you know, in this digital era, because my next question is the rule that, um, that forms like granted, uh, and cities and photographers play in shaping narrative. So I think that going back to that ethical, sorry, then there are some ideas that you might be able to share, because in this case, right, that, and you asked a hobbyist, a citizen, photographer, played a huge role. I think it's, I mean, as Reddit's tagline says, right, it's the front page of the internet. A lot of the people, uh, that are a little bit more vocal, um, and a little bit more outspoken are on there. Um, so whatever you put out, uh, people can react, react negatively, react positively, um, and it can easily spread. And as for the roles of that, that was the first time I'm hearing it, by the way, uh, the citizen photographer, quote, unquote, um, I think, unfortunately, and, and, and, and I think unfortunately, we, we, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll let myself in to citizen photographers as well. Unfortunately, we do carry a lot of, uh, power, uh, if I would say, uh, so a lot of power and, uh, but it also depends on the time, timing, right? Someone posted a similar post in December, in the same group, um, it just so happens that, uh, what I posted, uh, resonated with people, but yeah, uh, citizen photographers hold a lot of power in their hands literally because you can get a camera so easy nowadays. I mean, even the camera I use was 10 years old, right? Or even more. It's, it's, it's, it doesn't really have to be the expensive cameras nowadays, uh, any camera from the past 10 years can capture amazing and, and shocking images that can be shared online, uh, and, and go viral overnight and we, we definitely have to be careful. Um, I had a conversation with an artist friend of mine who worked closely with, um, groups and, and individuals that were, uh, I, I, I want to say, um, not in good terms with the government, right? But it was, it, their story and their, their, in, in a way, their location, um, was integral to his piece of art, right? The way that he makes art, uh, so he, he was careful enough to obfuscate in, uh, the location, but still be able to tell the story through his art, right? I think it's, I think that's a good example of, of, um, people trying to put out or trying to bring up bigger issues while not, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on a loss for words, but I think while not creating a situation where you further, uh, this enfranchise or, or, or you, you, you kind of disclose information, I can consideration, or like it when I have a direct feedback or the people involved. If there's one thing that you'd want people to take away from all of this, what would it be? I mean, you've already shared your piece on, uh, read it on Instagram, but as there might be some people who still haven't, um, seen these posts, despite them being viral. So yeah, just, um, what to take away from all, um, from everything that has to inspired. I think, uh, the, the same thing I've said to every single person who's asked me the same question. I think it's still, it's still, um, genuine empathy, right? Allow genuine empathy to drive your critical thinking because a lot of people already think critically, I always ask the question, why, right, a lot of, um, and I won't, I'm not using this term that I'm about to use as a slur or as, um, as a negative thing. But a lot of these keyboard warriors, right, uh, do ask questions or they are critical of the actions of the government, right? But then what's next after you post that comment, after you make that post on social media, what's, what's next, right? If you allow genuine empathy to drive that curiosity and that critical thinking, I feel like there will be more action. There will be, uh, further movement on your end or at least, um, you trying to find ways to move the needle even further. Um, I think I also have another question where some listeners might also be curious. Are you still in contact with all the community from, um, the botanical garden, the church, room, and the rest? Yeah, no, unfortunately, I'm not. And I think a lot of it is guilt, especially after I saw, uh, someone post that they boarded up, uh, the entrance to their creek or to the, to the, to the culvert and, uh, to drain your system that they lived in, as soon as they, they, uh, as soon as I saw that I started feeling really, really bad, because that means that, again, these people that just, that felt comfortable telling me that they were displaced, uh, a couple years back, or again, now displaced, right? I would love to try to maybe communicate with Romail and Jerwin and, uh, the rest of the people there, but I feel like I'll just receive a lot, a lot of hate, a lot of negative energy from them. And I do accept it. I do accept the responsibility that it may have been my fault. A lot of people said, have said that it wasn't your fault technically because again, yeah, they told me in the morning, before I went there, the cops were always scoping out, uh, the area, right? Um, so it was going to happen either way, regardless if I post that or not, um, but it, it still hurts me to think that it, I could, uh, that, that my actions, uh, might have sped up that, um, that displacement that they experienced. And then William, of course, um, after something goes viral, like just a few days or weeks after there's a new thing. So maybe some people are curious if, um, after, uh, everything, as mentioned, that has happened, um, they still walk around taking photos, has this, um, experience changed, um, the way you look at, um, the city or, uh, the way you approach, um, street photography in general. Uh, it did, it did. Honestly, I made, I made this account or, or William Roberts in like 20, 23, it was right around the time that I, I left, um, the industry, um, my friend gave me that name, William Roberts because it's one of my favorite artists, um, so back then and until up, up until very recently, I just wanted to, you know, capture beautiful things or things that I found, found interesting. If you scroll around my, my profile, you'll see people playing soccer or skateboarding, people on motorcycles, right? It used to be just whatever I saw or, or whatever I found interesting, but definitely now, um, especially with the more recent posts that I've been putting out, um, I've tried to, or I kind of revived the part of me that like selling stories, um, I, I don't have hazardly posts, anything anymore, right? Uh, I make sure that I have a full, the full story or I make sure that I have, uh, at least a narrative to, to share. Yeah, so definitely these are some of the, you know, positive impact from the entire experience. So if listeners want to see more of your work or follow your stories, is there a platform where they can find the, uh, yeah, just, just on my Instagram, I think, uh, I try to post at least twice or three times a week, um, with anything that I've found interesting. William, thank you again, not just for joining us, but for sharing your free-hand experience as and reflections on how the story unfolded, both online and in real life. That's it for this episode of Tech At Tech News. I'm Kate Pervano. This episode was engineered by me, Anthony Top Yes. Jay Marc Dordicilia is our editor at large. If you liked how we do conversations, follow us on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more updates, we're also on Facebook, Hex, Instagram, and TikTok. Thank you for listening and until next time.