Mo Willems on The Necessity of Art

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Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on plus and pro plans. This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem. Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. That's software overload. ODU is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, fully integrated, easy to use, and built to grow with your business. Thousands have already made the switch. Why not you? Try ODU for free at ODOO.com. That's ODU.com. Hey, everybody, it's me, Debbie Kamalbeau. Welcome to episode 16 of Who's With Me. Again, I'm your host, Debbie Kamalbeau. Hey, did I tell you that I have a new children's book coming out? Rock Paper Scissors Cheese. It's the new children's book I have coming out with, my friend, Adam Mansbach. Oops, let me get my finger in the right place. Adam Mansbach, who you may know from the book Go The Fuck To Sleep. He lives in Berkeley, I live in Oakland. We met years ago, we're friends, we're dads, we're working a lot of good, cool things, a lot of PSAs, supporting reproductive rights and so many things, and we collaborated on this children's book called Rock Paper Scissors Cheese, and it comes out October 27th, but we'd love you to pre-order it now from wherever you pre-order things, go to bookshop.org. It's illustrated by Brianna Chambers, and if you can see, it stars my family. You see all these hands, those are my daughters. That's my hand, and this is a drawing of my three daughters over here. Here we go, we'll hold it up close, if you're not on the, if you're not watching on YouTube, I'm holding up a cover of my new book, Rock Paper Scissors Cheese, it comes out October 27th, and on the back, here's a picture of my whole family, and you can see, if you look at it, it's me, my wife, my three daughters, and my mom, it's called Rock Paper Scissors Cheese. It's a fun children's book that comes out October 27th, that you can pre-order, Niao. We'll put that in the show notes, Niao. I bring that up today, because today, on who's with me, my guest is the legendary generationally talented children's book author and illustrated Moe Willems, and special guest is his wife, Cher. Cher is his main collaborator, as you'll learn about in the show, but at some point, we were talking about Cher so much that Moe just invited Cher, his wife to come sit with him, and then it turned into one of the greatest interviews we've done in the history of this podcast. I just love that each podcast interview is very different, and this one is very different because Moe and Cher set their together, and we got to talk about what it is to be a couple working on the same project together, you know, so it's a great interview, we'll talk more about that later. They have a new children's book coming out September 29th called We Really Like Cooking Slop. It's their first book together, it's a cookbook for families. It's sort of inspired by the book that Moe wrote in the elephant and piggy series called I Really Like Slop. So, this is inspired by that clearly, so don't be afraid, I'm sure there are recipes in there for not Slop. Anyway, Moe Willems is great, we'll talk more about him in a little bit, but I think it's cool to have an episode featuring two, what I would say are two good white people when America just lost one of its best white people, Dolly Parton last week. When Dolly Parton died, arresting piece Dolly Parton, thoughts and prayers with her family, when Dolly Parton died, I posted across some of my social media platforms that Dolly Parton is definitely on the list of white folks that black people do not play about. And when I posted that, there were a lot of black people still coming back saying, yep, that's right. You got that right, brother. And that's right, black people of all ages, generations saying, yep, that's true. And then I had some white people who were like, what does it mean don't play about? Which is a fine thing to ask. I mean, it's a fine thing to not know. But then some people were like, I need you to explain it to me in the way that only white people can do. I was like, I'm not going to explain it, this is where we got mad that it didn't explain it, they started fighting with other people in the comments, come on, can't we just say stuff? Can't black people just speak? Yeah. And then I had some like, people say like, why are we so obsessed with this white lady? And I'm not, you know, or why are we making such a big deal out of this white lady? I'm not making such a big deal as white lady. It's probably the first time I've ever tweeted or social media about Dolly Parton. I didn't tweet about it. But I'm of the age where Dolly Parton has been in my life, my whole life. I don't remember a time without Dolly Parton. And I don't remember a time when Dolly Parton was a force for negativity, you know? Dolly Parton very famously didn't talk about who she was voting for. She apparently turned down being given presidential medals of freedom because she didn't want to be associated with any one political party. And you know, there's an argument against doing that. But Dolly Parton was also in that era of show business where you wanted everybody to come. And the thing that it was clear is that she actually did want everybody in her audience. That's so whether who she voted for, if she ever voted, that's one discussion. But I actually think it's more important how you live your life and how you're demonstrating your who you are in the world. And Dolly Parton made it clear that she believed in inclusion, she believed in joy, she also believed in equity. Her big philanthropy effort was the imagination library. Apparently around the country, when you have a child that's born, you can go to the imagination library. We'll put the link here or the right here. And you can tell them I just had a kid born and they'll send you a new book every month for the first five years of your kids' life. Every month for free, apparently it's all around the country, apparently not all zip codes do it for reasons that I'm sure are political. But yes, so Dolly Parton was advocating for children's literacy, which is huge. She was born in Appalachia. Her parents apparently did not read and write, at least her dad didn't. And she was advocating for children's literacy. So that alone means she is not, she is, she's a good white person. And she, she also in 2020, when Black Lives Matter was happening, she was like, yeah, Black Lives Matter. She said it would not, would not a hiccup or any sort of like gulp. She's also been very supportive of the LGBTQ community. Apparently she described herself as how she dressed was actually a version of her doing drag. She called herself a back with Barbie. So yeah, you know, I'm not here to say Dolly Parton is better than like Harriet Tubman or better than Bell Hook, sorry, I were obviously naked Giovanni. I keep going on. I'm just saying that the bar for good white person is often so low that it is great to see somebody leap over that bar and clear it quite easily. Hey, real quick, this is come out from a few hours later. I just realized I forgot to say that a lot of the information I learned about Dolly Parton post her passing was from a great Lindsay Ellis video. Lindsay Ellis, you don't know is a great video essayist here on YouTube also on Nebula. And she released a video called yes, she was really that great that she actually had recorded before Dolly Parton passed away and released on Friday before Dolly Parton passed away. And it was supposed to be just on Nebula, which is a great platform for YouTube creators who want to be freed from some of the restrictions of YouTube. But it is currently on YouTube for a little limited time. So go check that out. I learned a lot about Dolly Parton from that. Like, for example, that she was friendly with Kid Rock. So I want to give Lindsay Ellis all the credit I can. She's an incredible video essayist. And I wanted to make sure you check out her video, we'll put the link somewhere. Okay, back to come out from a few hours ago. And when I sit with the Williams moment share Williams, it is clear they are also clearing the bar of good white person very easily. They also advocate for children literacy. We'll talk about that later. They advocate for food banks. They're very big on trying to make sure that people donate to food banks. And the work that Mo puts out in the world, Mo and share. But the work that most specifically writes and creates is all about its kids books for little kids. It is about, again, inclusion, problem solving, but also joy and silliness, but also it shows kids. It's, it's, it's also complicated. The relationships between the characters get complicated, people can be mad and they can be petty and they can be sarcastic, but they get through it. I just think he's, if you're by generation, I think he's in that Dr. Sioux shell silverstein level of children's book creator. And if you're not in my generation, don't Google Dr. Sioux's racism. Yeah. So yeah, so super happy to have my Williams on the podcast today. Rest in peace, Dolly Parton. But also, yeah, if we are to overcome white supremacy, which I still have plans of doing in my lifetime, it's good to have some good white people on our side. And you know, I'm not saying Dolly Parton was perfect, although when you Google Dolly Parton controversy, not a lot comes up. Apparently she was friendly with Kid Rock. So, you know, nobody's perfect. But I would like to think that Kid Rock would be a better person if he had spent more time with Dolly Parton. But yeah, again, rest in peace, Dolly Parton, stand updates. September 25th and 26th, I'll be in Stanford, Connecticut, October 1st. I'll be at Stanford University, February 20th, 20th, 207. I'll be at Bellingham, Washington. Also, pre-order of my book, Rock Papers and Cheese, pre-order of my Williams book. We really like cooking slop. Yeah, and enjoy the show. Hey, thanks for watching an episode of Who's With Me. If you're on YouTube, please like and subscribe, share, hit the high button. I hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share, hit the high button. Thank you. No Williams. Thank you so much for being here. It is my pleasure to be in this comfortable chair with this awkward microphone. That's good. And thank you, Share, for being over there in your comfortable chair. You're amazing. Share with them. So, I start the podcast out by giving people their flowers. Okay. I feel like people don't hear directly enough. I mean, if we're in show business, people say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But I mean the things that I love about you and the collective you, so I just, because I feel like we don't hear enough from the world from our people about that stuff. So, first of all, before I ever met the two of you, I was just like so impressed by the work as a person who never fell out of love with kids books as an adult. And then when I started reading kids books to my three daughters, like develop some real opinions. Yeah, like really. Well, you're the orchestra. I mean, I think it's really important because you're the orchestra. Yeah. And if the orchestra doesn't like what they're playing, it's not going to be a good song. Really? And so, as we started, it's so dearlier, me and Adam Mansbach have a children's book coming out that features my family this fall. And so, and when we started sat down to do it, I was like, "Okay, it has to do this." And one thing I said was like, and it has to rhyme because we're not Mo Willems. I was like, "Children's book after rhyme, unless there is one caveat you were Mo Willems." So. Children's books are songs. Yes. Yes. Because novels, you read once, and you can say that's the greatest novel I've ever read. You don't even have to read it twice. Picture books are songs. You're going to hear them again and again and again. So the punchline isn't the piece. The piece is the journey that you're there and the memory and, "Oh, I'm going to get to the juicy part." Or, "Oh, this is going to be the thing." So, it's not books are not meant to be read. They're meant to be read a billion times. Yes. And, and I think the thing you also know that every, because I heard you say this one time, the fit percent of the book is the person who's reading it? 51 percent. 51 percent. I only do 50, 49 percent of the book. And part of that is, you know, I have a lot to do among these men. You can't get 50 percent. But if you do more than 50 percent of the book, you're writing a VHS manual. Right? Yeah. You're actually making sure, okay, with the screwdriver. You're telling them what it is. You're telling them what the book is about. Yeah. I feel strongly about this. I feel like any writer at any time, this is the writing process. You're paying your head against the wall. And you want to have a make a cultural import. And you do this and you do that. And it's frustrating. And it's no good. And you get your craft. And you spend years and years. And one day you have the idea. And man, it's magic. And you're so excited. You run back to your office or wherever you are. And you write the idea. And you rewrite it. And you rewrite it. And you give it to people. And it's terrible. Because the idea wasn't what excited you. It was the discovery of the idea. So your job is not to write the idea. That your job is to write the discovery. I'm glad this is being recorded. I think about that as a stand up. And that with a bit that comes to you like, oh, that the moment of like, oh, this is a bitter. Oh, I can say that I'm saying, oh, this would be funny. And the job is to stay in the, oh, you want your audience sometimes, at least my audience. And I think, you know, I did stand up early on. Yeah. I think you want them to get to the piece before you did. Because then they're super smart. Oh, yeah. Right. Right. And then you're just underlining the underlying of the bit of the bit or the beat or whatever it is. And now we're all in it together. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So you're not dragging them along. No. Right. No. You're the, the rocks that they're skipping to to get to the display. That's what I always thought about. I want them to jump the farthest distance of the punchline where they just catch the punch. Yeah. Just get, because if they land, if it's like, boom, boom, and they just land, it's like not funny. Or they overshoot it. Yeah, they were here. Or they don't get there. They're like, oh, right. So like, you want, but you want them to just get to the other side. It's, it's the discovery. That's the excitement of idea. Yeah. And the way that I came to know you and I do your book, first of all, the first Malwounds book I ever got is a, is a, oh my god, my brain is blanking. I can't believe this happens all the time. Yeah. No, this is funny. Like, no, this is great. I also love when you did that joke about that thing that I can't remember. Oh, yeah. No, it's good. That was a funny one. We've got another, what, 50 minutes? I got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. We're keep all the sin. I just like, I saw, here we have it. I just saw a flood of piggy and jail books in my head. And I was like, good, good, good, good, good. The way that I came to know you was my best friend, Jason, who owned a bookstore at the time in Chicago in the Oak Park, called the book table. When my wife was pregnant with our oldest daughter, was like, and he had a bookstore, like an independent bookstore that had a thorough children's section, like a proper, like sitting nook and a little table and lots of seats and like this, it's like a place for kids to go spend some time. And he gave me, we are in a book. And I, he was just like, this is the guy. And he was a, and he's a very takes books very seriously. Obviously, I was an antiquarian bookseller and really has opinions and won't sell certain books, even though they're popular. Just because I'm not, I'm not here. I'm not here. But you can go down the street. You can order that online. Right. Right. But it was very much like put in my hands like, this is the one. And so because I came from Jason, I've been best friends with since I was a sophomore in high school. I just knew like, okay, man. And then to fall into we are in a book. And I remember the first thing I was impressed about was like, oh, this is meta. Like right. It's not, and you know, at that point, I'm new to being a dad. And I'm like, oh, this, this book is actually trying to actually entertain me too. Yeah. And it's actually teaching my kid, like, you know, sort of meta humor. And I was like, and but also doesn't feel didactic. And just I was like, oh, and so that was for us was a great inroads into the book. And it has only sustained throughout all three of my daughters. So much so that when we went out to dinner in San Francisco, me and listen, you and share went to dinner. And you drew, I guess you were, you're a douler, which is no, yeah, we do it all every night at dinner always. And at the end, we were, me and Melissa were leaving and share. You were like, take it. He's not, he doesn't want it. When I tell you that on our refrigerator, he's kid art and in your piece of art for that night. That is, that's the best. The idea of being in the refrigerator museum of art is that I mean, and it's a highlight. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, and it is so great that it was because we wanted to keep it. And where we're going to keep it where we all display and see it every day, it is on the refrigerator. And it's great because it's too sided. So we're not again, you can flip it for a different show. Absolutely. And just recently we had a bunch of family friends over. And it's also that thing that happens every now like, oh, this refrigerator, Mo Willems. What? That's great. That's great. Well, you know, actually, that book is why I do, I'm doing this interview with you because the, we are in a book came from an interview where somebody said, well, what are Elephant and Piggy doing right now? Or, and I was like, what do you, what do you mean? They, they work in books. They work in books. They know they work in books. Maybe they don't know that they work in books. Right? Because they're fully matriculated. They're like Roller. They pay Elephant Time Taxis. They have, you know, poor kind bills to pay all of that. They dinner. They go home at night. And I think for me, that was also like pretty deep into the Mo Willems catalog. Right? We're in the book is pretty weird. It is weird. A book is the middle of the Elephant and Piggy books. That's what I mean. So yes, we had to go back. Right. But I just felt like it was also like great to sort of be like, oh, this is, it's like, you know, starting as TV like show season six. Oh, wait, I got five more seasons I can watch. Yeah, a lot more stuff. And we went back through and we have, we have been dedicated ever since. So it's funny. It took us a while to get to pigeon. Right. Which is like, it's like it took me a while to get to, you know, she loves you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Good, good, good. Yeah. Oh, there's actually this is that, this is, oh, this is the hit. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I love it. So you're a full fledged, often discussed. Remember the family. We, the kids we talk about y'all time. It was so great to take my youngest to see you at sketch fest. So you both at sketch fest and this picture I have, which I just referenced of you two talking. And you know, she's a kid. So she's not always open and talk. Sometimes she shy, even though she's not, she's sometimes she pulls back, but just the level of like comfort and intention you gave to her and the comfort she felt was like, and I know this is a celebrity that like, that makes a difference. And she really like just feels like, oh, yeah, We know him. He's our friend. Yeah, she was the most important person in the room. I appreciate that. And you know, so it means a lot. And, and then the thing I want to talk to you about, which is probably the thing I most want to talk about before I start crying is, uh, is I also respect you. And this could be the collective view. Right. Because the craft, hmm, the fact that clearly there is a system or some sort, or something works because it's not like, I don't feel like the work hasn't slowed down. It feels like the pace is picked up. And I know that's my perception of it. But also, like every time I think, oh, he's done with that, there's like a, like another piece will come out. And I'm like, this, I, if I could ask anything that, hmm, what is the process like at this point? And how is it different now from like this pigeon, uh, 25 years ago? And that was the first book, right? That was the first book. And so I would imagine that I would just love to know has the process changed since pigeon. Sure. And then what is a work day, like, like today, we're writing books. Well, so that's a lot. There's a lot of questions. Right. Well, we got an hour. So that's one that I like to ask one question and then just sit back up. That's good. Well, let's start with sort of what an ideal day is. Obviously the days change. I'm on the road about a week a month. But I separate my time from creative and reactive. And reactive is addictive. You, you're in a meeting, you're in a Zoom. Yes, no, I think it should be that way. blah, blah, blah. And then you hang up the phone or whatever. And you feel like you've accomplished something. You really haven't. Yeah. But it's very addictive. And so I realized that I was getting high off of being reactive. And so I needed to be creative. And so for many years, I just didn't pick up the phone three days a week. And I was only creative those days. And by creative, I mean, when they three days in a row, no, no, alternate days. But you know, because you have to keep the empire running. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what I mean by creative is like bored and walking and fragile and questioning and wondering. And so now, because the empire is a little bit bigger, I'm not reactive until after lunch. That's great. So I wake up in the morning and I do whatever it is. And maybe I go for a swim. Maybe I sit and I draw. Maybe I'm in production. But ultimately a book is a single question that you do not know the answer to. And so I don't know the answer to a lot. And it's really hard, simple and easier, the opposite. So it's really hard getting simple to ask myself these questions. And these questions are why am I like this? So elephant and piggy is not about friendship. It's about repairing friendship because the essence of friendship is they break. So every story is about that because 20 years ago, I didn't know how to be a friend. I could not figure it out. And we have a new set of early readers that are just about to come out that are set in the elephant piggy world about snake and bat. And snake and bat are in the elephant and piggy books and they're going to get their own series. And they are about what to support look like. And so I have these philosophical questions. I don't know the answer shoe that allow me to grab on. What I've discovered with snake and bat now having made a lot of them is they need props. They need physical props because the props are what is getting in the way of them supporting each other. Wow. Right. Yeah. And so the other side is you're writing a letter to yourself that you want somebody else to buy. And if that letter is simple enough, it may well be that other people are writing that letter right now to set it so that when they pick up the book, they recognize the letter that they yeah. So for instance, just on a shallow level. Sure. I love having done things and don't love doing things. Yes. Okay. Got it. That is me. And I don't understand it. And share is lovely. Share. It's like, hey, let's go to the symphony. Why should we go to the symphony? Because you love the symphony. Oh, I do love the symphony. But why should I go tonight? Because your favorite piece is being performed. Yeah. I'm like, well, I don't really know that I want to go do that. And shares like, we let us go to the symphony. Yeah. And so I go and I put on my pants. Yes. I know. I put on my shirt. And I go to the symphony. And I'm like, we should be doing this all the time. So that book, what I get, she's like, what a great idea. Exactly. Yeah. And so that book becomes the pigeon needs a bath. I'm not writing a bath book. I'm writing a why don't I want to do the thing I love book? I mean, I love the fact that because there is a question of like, I think people, I don't tell you the people can understand the children's books. Hopefully they do. Hopefully they do. Because their power comes from that. Right. In the show, you made, you made the most incredible animated films about ultimately politics and psychology. And they were children's animated films. There were characters who were bureaucrats. There were literal bureaus. And their mouth opened and closed. And nobody took kids film seriously. And they were able to express so much, so powerfully. So if somebody says, I could do that in five minutes, victory. Great. Victory. Right. Either that or you must really love being a dentist or whatever it is. Right. But no, I hopefully they don't see what it is. They don't read the pigeon needs a bath because I'll see you won't go to the symphony. Yes. Yes. Exactly. I was about the symphony. What's funny is I have just this happened last night. It's just a thing about, you know, partners and marriage and your partner getting you do something. So we went to one of my best friends, 50th birthday party. And me and Melissa have known him. We met him on the exact same day, but he became my best friend. It's just a good friend of hers. But we've known him for we all have kids. Well, his kids about to go to senior in high school are kids. He's known all our kids, whatever we've all we've all lived in different locations. But now we're sort of near each other again. And at some point, it was the end of dinner. It's a big dinner and I don't even know everybody there. I've met him before. But it's a pretty big dinner to an Ethiopian restaurant. So most of my thoughts were like, make sure the kids eat food. Right. Because they aren't Ethiopian food eaters. But there's these two Ethiopian women who are there who are great with them. And they ate a lot of it. So I was really just like, yeah, this evening work. The kids ate food in the Ethiopian restaurant. And and they're not going to be hungry when we get home. And we had a good time and Melissa goes, you need to make a speech. And it's funny. I'm a stand-up queen. It's that shouldn't be right. Right. Right. Right. What? Yeah. It's your friend's 50th birthday party. He's one of your best friends. You need to make a speech. I was like, but nobody else is making a speech. Also, it's a restaurant. It's not like a private room. There's other tables. Right. Like put other people going to see me like, yeah, like I was also like, I'm a little, it's weird. They see Camel Bell making a speech in a row. And she's like, he's your friend. So I went, okay. And I got up and went outside and just like thought for a couple of minutes, like, what would I say if I've made a speech? Well, that'd be pretty good. And when Jeremy Townsend made the speech and felt good about it. And reference the fact that Melissa told me to make the speech. And it's just that thing about like your partner seeing you in ways that you can't see yourself and pushing you to go to the frequency of things. That's right. That's right. Yeah. But it is also about we all have things that stop us and we don't understand them. That's enough. Right. Yeah. So we all have so many of those things. You're not going to run out of ideas. Yeah. I would sometimes people would say like, I have an idea for a kids book. I give it to you. Don't give me, I'm fine. Give me three more months of life. Make the year 20 months long. Yeah. That's that would be the gift of life. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was because I was my next question is like, because I was a stand up. And I feel like these are similar. Yeah. No. Look, I started in sketch comedy. My drawings are sketchy and my books are sketches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's all it's a form. It's a form. So that you're sort of always your brain is always in the background painting for stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, I think I'm always just curious sometimes about where I am. And curious about where kids are. So for instance, we did a, there's a pigeon book of the, it's a pigeon's birth, bird day. Yeah. And it turns out it's other people's bird days. And this is not about birthdays. This is, well, it is in the sense that the birthday is the only day that you were celebrated for no accomplishment. Yeah. Yeah. Right. For just being you, I would tell you in my childhood, I was not seen. And peanuts allowed me, Charlie Brown doing this allowed me to, not be seen because that would be too much to ask for. Yeah. But to know that I was seeable. Seeable. And so when every one of my books, one of my characters, so that they know that they're seeable, we're in this together, whatever it is. And it may be worse for my characters than it is for you out there right now. It may be better for my characters. But that is enough. So just to have the question like, am I going to take your flowers? Well, that's great. That's great. I appreciate that. It's hard for me to take, but you're not saying you love me for the meanness of me. You're saying you love me for these things that I've done. Again, fine. Yeah. But there has to be a moment of seeability. There has to be a moment where you feel that that is valuable. Right? Yeah. And so that's one idea. Yeah. And why? until I mean, I made that book how many years ago, two years ago, why up until my mid 50s, was I not even able to approach the idea that seeing myself was enough. And that, so the Pigeon's Bird Day is about that, about you. The Pigeon's Bird Day is, why can't I see myself, right? And the Pigeon is furious because it's also the Ducklings Bird Day and all these other birds because all birds get born at the same time, and now he's got to figure it out. Like, I thought this was my special day, but we're all unique, right? We're all special. That's the thing of like Margaret Mead said. Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else, but that's the moment. So it's these sort of things that then lead me, because the being the silly and the slapstick and the writing, that's craft. The knowing what you are trying to think about is yourself, and then freeing it up that somebody else reads it and see something completely different and they're right. They're never wrong. Imagine Henry Ford trying to create the assembly line. He had factory plans, production schedules, supply information, research, and ideas coming from all directions. His team spent years studying how to make the process work. Now, imagine having chat GPT work. Chat GPT work can help with big projects that have lots of steps. You give it the goal, along with real information like notes, files, reports, feedback, and project plans. It can use approved apps, connected tools, and files to help turn all of that into something useful. A plan, an analysis, a tracker, a presentation outline, or a workflow you can keep improving. And you stay in control. You give direction, review the work, approve actions, and choose the final result. Would Henry Ford have built the assembly line faster with chat GPT? We'll never know. Ford didn't have chat GPT. You do. Put chat GPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans. This is Malcolm Gladwell from Metal of Honor Stories of Courage. This episode is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. Buying a car can be like a long road trip. There's negotiating prices, lots of fees, and a difficult process. But with an auto loan from Navy Federal, you're on the highway to hire savings. They want the members to save more on their next auto purchase. That's why they offer great rates, military discounts, and pre-approvals that are good for 90 days. Plus, Navy Federal offers most decisions in seconds. So if you want to save more on your next auto purchase, learn more and apply for an auto loan at NavyFederal.org/AutoLones. Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA, Credit and Collateral Subject to Approval. Terms and conditions apply for military discounts. Visit NavyFederal.org/AutoLones for details. These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've all gone down on internet, rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real, what's exaggerated, and what's just wrong? That's exactly what health versus hype from the American Medical Association and I Heart Media's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors in order to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters? Listen to health versus hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So when you say, "I'm gonna get back to crafts again," when you say like, "I don't, I'm not reactive until noon." What is that from whenever you wake up and you're sitting down? What is that, is there like, is it like, I'm just wondering, like for example, I go through different stages of creativity right now. I used to like carry on like, lined notebooks, I kept my back pocket, you know, but then I was doing my phone for a while, and now I buy these big like, like, drawing paper and sharpies. And so that's how I take notes for stand-up is like, I sit down, like an hour for the show, and sort of go, "Okay, what did I do last time? What do I do tonight?" And my kids laugh because I have sharpies all over the house now, but I like sharpies because I can write big and I can see it easy on things. And you can drop it on the floor. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I kind of like, and it's like, and also the paper doesn't bleed through, so I can really like, and so is, what is your process like if we are sitting down to do work? What is it? Well, I have, I always have a notebook, which I call an idea garden. And my job is to put as much feces and manure in the idea garden, right? And to let it go. So what I do is, I audition my characters. I take them out for coffee. I bring them places. I start to see how they are going to react. So I just want to get to know them well enough so that when I have an idea, I know who's going to fulfill that question. So these characters show up before a book, maybe shows up, like, there's just one day a snake shows up, and they're just hanging out with snake. Yeah, absolutely. Certainly, Elephant and Piggy was there. Elephant was there for a long time on the drawing table, in the dining room table, while we were doing dinner drawings, in my notebooks, Piggy, I held auditions for because I love that. I know that I needed, it was a comedy duo, right? And I love comedy duo. So I feel like I'm Nichols and May's mother's brother, my first comedy duo on college. I was a group called The Normals. So I love that. So I had to audition, figure out Piggy once I knew who traveled with us. Okay, I love that. We know we got this guy, but we knew who's gonna master this guy. That's right. And it's real. They're actual characters. You have to take them seriously. And so you have your idea garden and your auditioning characters waiting for the idea to show up. And then, like, do you have a space in your house you go? I'm really trying to get super nerdy about this. Okay, so I do. I have a studio. I have a space that reminds me to be happy. Like, I mean, the colors are certain. I've got weird drawers. It's very designing. Yeah. We just left Northampton. So you would know what my space was like in Northampton. Yeah. If you saw the dinner doodles, that was my workspace. Well, that also during the pandemic. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, the lunch doodles, I apologize. So now we live in New York and we built something analogous. I made it a standing studio. So I'm always standing. I'm always moving. I'm always walking around. I am very sketchy and loose. And once it comes time to develop it a little bit more, then I sort of work tighter. Also with a lot of books, I have these sheets of every step. So it's a giant chart like the page turn, the color, the background, the blue, which is the initial drawing. I initially do my tightest drawings in blue because that's what you do as an animator. Then you make your mistakes. You fix that in red. Then you go to inks. All of this because it is impossible to make a book. It is impossible. But it is possible to make a single blue drawing of a snake. And then it is possible to fill in a little box and say, I made a single drawing of a snake. It's pretty great. And so that is how I process it. When I'm in production, I always draw the drawings of the book out of order. I start with the middle drawings, the after act, act three end of act two of a book because at that point two thirds into a book, if you are noticing the drawings, the book does not work. And the more I draw, the better my drawings get. So the last drawing I make of a book will be the best. Okay. So that's the cover. That's oh great. Because you will at that stage be looking at that cover seriously as a drawing. And then as you get into it, you're going to look at it as a drawing. In the same way that when you start to see a film, you look at a film as film. Yeah. Right. Oh, the camera is panning. Oh, the lighting is this. Oh, this is happening. If you're doing that in the middle of the film, it's not a filming. Yeah. If you notice the movie soundtrack, then maybe it's not good. That's right. But in the beginning, you should. Yeah. And so and at the end, as well, because you're getting up. Yeah. So I have certain techniques that I use in my production when I'm an actual production of a book that sort of helped me figure out how to work efficiently and well. Taking with the guy who writes, don't let the pigeon drive the bus at that stage. Yeah. Okay. Were you two together? Yes, we were. We were actually share is change. Come on, camera. This is ridiculous. Come come. It's totally great. It's totally great. It's totally great. I actually was thinking about later. I think I just put this in half and bring you in. Come sit here. I think we brought the share. First of all, first of all, we've done this. I love this. So also I kept like, yeah, so share. So we would tell it. So I wanted to write the great American picture book. So I moved to Oxford, England so that I could be smarter. I just figured like, it would be in the beer somehow. And then I wrote terrible, terrible books. And I put out a sketchbook every year for clients. friends and I have for the last 33 years. It's a 40-year project and I made this don't let the pigeon drive the bus because his character was saying don't write about this right about me and in the beginning there was a little kid who's job was not to let the pigeon drive the bus and the pigeon said you don't need a co-star I'm the star make the audience. Yeah yeah the readers are right so we went back and I made it that year's sketchbook and the the company the production company where it's making films printed it in a spirit of true contractual obligation and they said it's terrible. Oh and then share. What were you doing at that time? I was working as an assistant in a library on the upper east side of Manhattan and she took my sketchbook and I read it to a bunch of kindergartners and they lost their minds. Talk about great like target marketing and like and test marketing it or not I didn't realize it was a picture book so share comes back and says I've read this little thing to the kids because I felt like it they went berserk they were yelling no it was punk rock and I was like that's nice. It's not it's not a it's not a picture book it's a sketchbook and it was a tiny little thing and so they were drawing it but you just thought I guess it's just some a trifle. Yeah it was just a little gift to it's like this yeah and I'm sure you have that somewhere. Oh yeah okay okay yeah and then cheer went back. Yep and I read it again and I read it to different kids in different classes and they all lost their minds. So then I'm like ah you know I really want to do picture books for a variety of reasons. One I was eight I was gonna age out of television and I was in my 30s. I was gonna tell you yeah animate any creator of an animated show on Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network was 33. Oh wow. And I was like there's no 50-year-old TV creators I got to get out right and then share while I'm trying to write these terrible books shares are when it comes to me and says this is the book now we got to go get it made. That's so great because I've heard versions of this story but I've not heard this version. It's directly from you so this is quite a gift. I mean because I think about this too me and listen together since 2003 married since 2009 but she met me as I was already a stand-up comedian but I was not on a path of any sort of like you know I jokingly I'm like when I met you I was like you were you know like there was I was featuring for for headliners occasionally in town in San Francisco could not headline and so and so she really was there at a time when I like needed somebody from the outside who actually thought I had talent but also was like not totally impressed. I thought you were using it. Yeah exactly. You have so much help you should go get that and bring that to the stage. Exactly and also she was she's a dancer she was also like why do you shuffle like that either move or don't move so there was some really specific things so I love the sort of hearing about like I think it's important to hear about the person who's like this is this is the thing forget all this other stuff yeah yeah yeah so and I heard that you then you tried to sell it and it wasn't didn't know now everybody said the exact same thing yeah it's unusual. I love that such a like at such a code word for like but the person who bought it two years later yeah two years of trying to sell this book said it's unusual so it's just a question of whether unusual is pejorative or not. I mean I find I mean as the person who's been coup I think it's called unusual I mean there's lots of words for what you call me intelligent is the way they say I'm unusual. You're really smart. You're just a smart comedian. So let me tell you here's the thing that this is the ant thing do you know do you know ants culture works. No all right so an ant finds food and then just farts, pheromones okay and all almost all the other ants are like oh that's food and they go and they follow exactly where that and the line of food and they get a line and they go and they go and they go and they eat the food and it's unsustainable because the food will run out and they die so what ants have are a series of random ants and the random ants when they don't follow the smell okay they just go around and those are the ones you see in your kitchen that you kill those ones who get stepped on those are the ones that are just all over the place why is that single-hand there. Those are the artists in our culture. We are the random ants and our job is not to be successful yeah our job is to be random enough to find the new thing that has never been found before yeah and I think that when we talk about the arts we talk about the arts as in like that person is good that person's clever that person's intelligent yeah that is not the purpose of art art is unimportant it is essential yes a very very different thing and it's not essential because it's successful it's essential because we can't exist without it yeah and for every random ant that finds the like the most amazing sugar cube that saves the colony for a certain amount of time all the other random ants did the other work the random ants right yeah first off the great name for a punk band you said punk rock yeah cuz I find the idea that like at some point in my career it was like I'm gonna go do this thing it was a solo show called the W. come out bell curve ending racism at about an hour cuz I was like going to the punchline every Sunday and doing seven minutes of stand up after 15 years is not yielded the results I thought it was a start-up life is not called right comedy store called once but they were really that excited yeah but it was a wrong number exactly yeah I said my claim of famous I went to the Montreal Comedy Festival with no manager in an agent and came back with no manager in agent so I managed to go I managed to go to the Comedy Festival they're 20% of your income that's pretty good yeah yeah I'm unscathed from from Hollywood's graces so at some point it's like I'm just gonna go over here and even this podcast is another like I sort of think about again I'm going over here I'm gonna go over here and do this thing over here and invite people I want to invite and talk if you want to talk to because going headlong at show business is clearly not the thing to do it in the way that I mentioned the other people are already doing yeah yeah yeah right yeah and other people are built for it in a way that I mean I have a terrible idea and they're like what is it I'm like it's expensive and they do it yeah you I've seen some live shows I'm like how did he get first of all how did he get somebody to make that tail the tail on your suit jacket right that's somebody was annoyed by that order they had to make it yeah we had to do it we had to arrange 74 feet no it's not funny 74 it's not a funny footage no okay so first now the shares here I got it so when did you meet or when did you start the process of this if you know this we met with it's a funny thing we always forget what we met a New Year's Eve party okay and so it was the end of a year okay in the 90s okay but it wasn't did you did this start initially or would you friends pretty quickly okay okay we have we have we've been so we're back in the 90s yeah so you meet it and he's this one year what are you what what are you doing for job mode I'm at Sesame Street so you're a Sesame Street which to me sounds like if I met if I met if I was single and met somebody who worked at Sesame Street I'd be like oh you got a good job like you know I mean it sounds like okay guys like I got health insurance you know you know like oh and that's sure it's not going anywhere but yeah don't be on PBS till the end of that yes America so and and what were you doing share at that point I was working as a freelance commercial producer okay so you're in the you're in the business I mean as far as like you understand you're not like I think it's good that people are so you understand that there's a you know they can't produce some of my Sesame Street shorts I mean there's definitely like share you feel like early early on there was the sort of running the empire versus you know the cheese the the head and I'm the hand and we both try to be the hard that's what I'm talking about stop talking though there's my problem is that and I'm Melissa and I'm asking since for Melissa my wife the idea of like to meet the person who's doing a thing and then suddenly the thing shifts and then thing can take over like you know pigeon book comes out and something it's like hmm and now you're like huh the guy who was maybe I'm putting words in your mouth you can take them out but the guy who is on Sesame Street is now this and now this is our life we got to figure out how to do this what is that like you know what I'm saying yeah do you know what you're saying but I don't know that that's what happened thank you I think that Mo had the ideas and things that he's interested in now are not unrelated to the things that he was interested in from the beginning okay so I think it's just about refining ways of talking about it and being funny and being on the side of kids so it's really just him trying to figure out different ways to do that the whole time and so it's actually not very different and so first of all you two are literally working together like I went to the show we do very well even though we both work at home we have our meetings over zoom and then we turn off the zoom we see each other we have we live now in New York City we're relatively close to a big park and we have a rule that once you're in the park you cannot talk about work yeah that mean that's the other thing you have to have some real quickly getting to the park but if you need to virtual that phone call you to make that decision you should be reactive instead of creative on this time and then yeah You're like a true. - It's a trick, we have stuff talking. - So I think, do you know Jim Gaffigan? - I know of. - So Jim Gaffigan and his wife are very, like she writes his act with him. - Oh wow. - And directs like the specials. - Okay. - I don't know if they still there, but that was the way it for a long time. It was like, you would see the credits in his act written by Jim and Ginny Gaffigan, which to me is a standard comic as a male symphony. We all like to act like we, you know. So I'm just a wizard. I don't know, I'm kind of like a prophet. I'm like a prophet mixed with a poet. - Right. He was like, "I don't feel like I didn't write any songs." - Yeah, I don't know that shit. - No good ideas. - Right, exactly. - And so the idea of like, I'm really heartened and it makes me feel good for my relationship to see a couple in the entertainment business and I know that like, no, this is, we're doing, we're both doing this. Like where this is not a, and so talk about that share. 'Cause there's also a version of this where you're like, go do that over there. I'm gonna still, this library's taking all my time. Did it, was it a decision to make to be like, no, I'm right next to you or would it just, - Well, I mean, I think everybody's doing the things that they're good at. But it's not like I'm secretly writing the books, right? I'm probably the first reader of most of the books. - Yeah. - But it's my job to say, I'm bumping on this or this drawing, I don't love it. - Yeah. - But I don't say, wouldn't it be funny if, and how about this? Is that something I, that's on my job? And like, and depending upon what kind of work we're doing, like when you were writing a whole bunch of plays, like, I don't give notes on plays. - Hmm. - I can call a dramaturg and say, I'm bumping on this, and I don't know about this. - But I think there's a deeper, I really think that we are using, we're in the philosophy business, and our medium are various forms of entertainment, and it's television, and theater, and opera, but we're in the philosophy business. And I think that we have a lot of philosophical talks about who we are with each other, about who we are with our kid, about kids in general, about agency. So when you say, like, where do the ideas come from? They come from the dining room table, and because we're drawing on the table, we're slowing down and having real conversations and shares an amazing ceramicist. So she's talking about, I love this mug, and I'm thinking about this shape, and like, that's what I'm trying to make. I'm trying to make a mug, I'm trying to make something that holds something. If it doesn't hold it, the story, the meaning, then it's worthless. If it's pretty, that's great. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - So I think that we go to our own corners of like, shares running the business, and figuring out to make sure that people feel empowered to do their best, but yet speak with one voice and all of that stuff. But when we really are together, we're talking about a disenfranchised community, which is children, right? The furniture is not made to their size. They are told to stop. They can be lifted out of a room and taken away. They are an inconvenience. So the feelings that that brings up in all of us, we all have had that, even a good child. - Yeah, no for sure, right? - So I think that we are co-philosophers because we work it out together. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - That's right. - That's right. (laughing) - That's right. - That would be great for us to end, but we're not. - This is the other thing I find, 'cause the books, it's always, it looks easier for, like you say, some people are like, I can write that. I don't think that. I do think, man, I know that there's a certain, there's a page count that these books have, that you sort of know you have to meet this page count, so it can't end on page, you know. - Right, well, it has to be an even number because a page has two sides. - Yes. - If there's a physicality to it, here's the thing, when people think about books, they forget that they're sculptures, they're not books, they're sculptures. So the size and shape of the book is already telling you what it is. - Yeah. - So I did a book called Leonardo the Terrible Monster. It is a huge book. It is the largest book that you can publish that can still fit in a shelf. Why? Because if I told you that Leonardo was small, I would be didactic, but if I made him small in a book that's too big for a kid to handle, they would make the discovery. So as a general rule, a book that is about a person is tall because when you take a picture of a person, it's tall, right? So Leonardo the Terrible Monster, literally in the purple plastic purse, when you are writing a book about community or a place, it's wide, knuffle bunny, where the wild things are. Because when you take a picture of something that is a scenic thing, it's usually wide. - That's a panorama. - So I made a book called at Wiener the Dinosaur who didn't know she was extinct. And I really thought that this was about a dinosaur who didn't know she was extinct. So I thought it would be a tall book. But as I drew it, the drawing said wider and wider and wider and they started to become like the old Japanese cartoon scrolls from the 1900s, 1800s, where time passes even though it's just one image. They got longer and longer and longer until I realized the question I was asking was not, what is it like to be a dinosaur who's not extinct? What is it like for a society to accept something that doesn't exist? But if you start by going wide and you impose that, you haven't done the process. - You have to go through the process. I mean, I find, again, it's like I think about standup, like I do a lot of what, like I'll have ideas for jokes but then I'll go or a story I wanna tell, and then on stage, telling a story you're like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, look at that. - And also, oh, they laughed at that. I should go down that alley. - Right, right. Oh, look at that, I didn't know I'd say that. And then, oh, look where we ended up at. - Yeah. - And that's part of the process. - That's opening, that's also just being open to the curiosity of the characters. And in my case, the actual drawings, telling me what the story is. If you don't explore and audition pens and papers and ideas and character and design, you're never gonna know what you're hiding from yourself. - I mean, again, the analogy for me was, like, it was standup is very good 'cause you will reveal things about yourself and be like, ah, and then, I have this happen where then I have to be like, I gotta go make sure it's okay, I talked about that. - Yeah, well, but when I loved about my time doing performing and doing standup was, you never learned what was funny but you immediately learned what wasn't. - No, for sure. And your muscles of what's not funny, get really strong and really quick. (upbeat music) - This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. You give it the goal along with real information like notes, files, reports, feedback, and project plans. It can use approved apps, connected tools and files to help turn all of that into something useful. We'll never know. You do. - This is Malcolm Gladwell from Medal of Honor, Stories of Courage. But with an auto loan from Navy Federal, you're on the highway to higher savings. - These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice, telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep, but what's actually real, what's exaggerated, and what's just wrong? Each episode, Emmy-nominated science communicator, Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors. In order to set. separate fact from fiction because when it comes to your health who you listen to matters listen to health versus hype on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcast or ever you get your podcasts. Do you ever lose an idea? Cause this like do you ever have an idea that like starts off and you're like, oh I am. This is I'm cooking with gas and then at some point it just sort of like it's gas is poisonous. I was cooking and it was gas and then I passed out and luckily somebody opened the window. There are ideas right now like I just can't believe I can't get that back that that something you thought was. I've thrown stuff away shortly but you put it back in the idea garden. But you have there is a time when you and share see you think about that to like ideas where you're like this didn't come together and we're. Oh yeah some that just because you've got a great idea doesn't mean it works. I guess people but I think people think with a kid's book I mean again back to the condescension like well you just say you went here and then he said that. What's the big deal right yeah you can do that. It's fine that's fine for me. Also like I'm not I don't know I'm not saying what should be written or what shouldn't be written. Like people can write with a way what I am doing yeah for myself is trying to make kids seeable and trying to make discovery. Is that the only way to make books? No like I'm Jacqueline Woodson and I are very close friends. She does not write like I do. She sits down and man she just poets her way through something. And it and it happens and she has her own techniques and she tells her own stories and she is funny and serious and all of that's up. But man the way I work I could never impose that on her and she could never impose that on me that's not that's not the point. The point is that there are techniques that I have learned from some people that I can use that work for me and vice versa. But the idea that you should do it the way I do it means it then I'm already doing that. Well believe me it was a lot when I just handed you the proofs of the book to me and Adam were working on because I was like I know he's my friend now but it's still it is still Mo Willem. So I just I mean you know what it does not have to speak to me to be great. And it does not have to speak to a lot of people to not speak to a few people deeply. And so every book does not have to be a hit in that sense. Every hit affords you to take a bigger risk. That's the only thing that hit his worthwhile. I appreciate that. And so you get a sticker if you win something you get a sticker and I literally do this I will trade that sticker in for something that is completely unmarkable. That's funny for an idea that for an idea that they're like oh now we got to do it because you got the sticker. Yeah absolutely. I mean on a certain level elephant and piggy was one of those. That's so why they didn't want me to make those. And this is the thing I don't think I even understand about kids books. And I think people this is the part that I like I have a friend who wrote a kids book years ago he just wrote a hit and draw it. And it is not a hit. It is not but in our house it's a hit and we've taken reddit and like every kid. Each of my three daughters is someone said bring this to school and read this right. It's called the hugely woody spider. He's a friend of my name Ethan Berlin who's a comedy writer. Again a comedy writer wrote a totally biased and wrote this book. And he said it to me when it came out and I was like and it's hitting my house but it is not a hit I see in the world. There's another kids book that I was just talking about yesterday called Mr. Okra sells fresh fruits and vegetables which is about a New Orleans accent. The guy who drove a truck in New Orleans named Mr. Okra, big gregarious black guy who sang to the streets selling fruits and vegetables. And it's also a tourist book of New Orleans because it's like the blueberries with the same color as the doors of the museum. And we love that book so much that when do you know my middle kid was four she wanted to go to New Orleans and because my dad is a book. Yeah so my dad was in Alabama which is two hours from New Orleans. We did it and we did the book and we went to the museum. So well we saw the belly jacks and said we didn't stop but we saw everything in the book. Oh the binyes are a cross degree from the church so we're right here like the palm front like so. And we just talked about last night in my house that book is a hit. If you go to Amazon try to order that book it is like it's going to take ten days. And so to me. Random ants. Yeah random ants. But the fine line between like do you understand that line like do you understand what is the difference between like I can look at a comedian who I don't think is funny. Who is successful and go I think this is why this person is successful. I can look at a comedian who is not successful who I think is funny and go yeah I guess I can see why I can see what's not happening. Sometimes you go they haven't had the right shot and so maybe it could come but can you look the collective you the individual you go for other people and for yourself. I know what this is happening and by this isn't happening. I'm now at stage where I don't want to be influenced. Okay. They're very few like so I kind of try and step back. You're doing it. You're doing it in you. No music but your own. It's easier to talk about like I will say Vashti Harrison did a book called big and I saw that book and I was like this is this is a great book. And one the Calvin did very well and it was great for her career. I don't know that I saw all that but I was like this this is this is unique here's the thing. Stand up comedy and kids books are I think the two last bastions of individual voices because of cost like a book does not cost a lot. Yeah. You're going to make a TV show it can't be an individual. It just can't because there's too much risk and it's an industry based on fear right so when I come across a book that sounds only like somebody. Then I'm like wow yeah because now I just met somebody so big was that the idea of going around New Orleans and going to different landmarks. You're not telling me anything about the book yeah because so many other people can do a book about that. How much was that that person how real did it feel how much you feel that you've actually made a friend because again a book is not meant to be read. A book is meant to be read a billion times a friend yeah is not meant to be met friend is meant to spend time with the meat over and over and over and over again that's the definition of friendship that's why books are friends. Well that's what say this like this book the mr. Okra book I'm thinking specifically and the woman is now like a the woman wrote it was on daily is now like a kids lit professor at San Diego State as looked her last night. We were like whatever happened to her and I met her because I was walking on street and she knew how kids and she was going to Berkeley the time she gave me the book. Otherwise I would never know this book and I was like thanks and it became a staple of my family and it became a thing where we like Google. Mr. Okra and saw news clips about him and like and then like there's a Mr. Okra toy that you could order for the while but they weren't so many more like that. I found out I wasn't singing his voice the right way like all the things and like found that he had passed away and we that his daughter maybe took it over like how can we figure out if it's like. We went down the home Mr. Okra and so I feel very like that is one of the definitive books of our family and I can imagine that our my kids will if they have kids in their life will be reading that book along with with Piggy and you know. That's great it's a miracle right so you're your in community with someone you don't know I mean that's the power of it. But can you so again now I'm talking to you share because he's trying to know my question. Can you is there a thing that you can look at and go specifically with books outside of yourself. Because I think we I get like you may be too close and go this book is a hit this book is not a hit this book I just and not that you're judging it. But it's sort of the landscape of these things you know. Well I think there's always going to be something it's just going to be a fluke that catches people by surprise and it's for whatever reason right yeah. I think that most of the books that are really genuinely have an authentic voice and that's not somebody telling you what they think you want to hear. I think that's rare and I think that's ultimately the difference between what pigeon is and the books that you were trying to write in. Yeah yeah I think I think. Yeah we're talking about Oxford failure. I think I was writing what I thought grown ups would think kids would think parents would think kids would think was funny right and so when you're I think when you encounter someone who's not trying to make themselves into. The shape they think you'll like I think it's surprising and exciting yeah so I think there's a lot I think most of the books that are really surprising and delightful have them common yeah maybe not all of them but. I would I would also say that authors who are authentic and illustrators particularly people who can do both make a lot of books yeah so there is something about that that they're in touch with. I mean chair I has great advice for people who want to write children's books in particular she's like just write one book yeah like don't try to write all the books in one volume you know don't try to say everything you think you know about. world. Just find the one thing. Why don't I want to go to the symphony? That's enough to explore. But even that, you didn't write a book about not going to symphony, it became a pageant. So you're letting your brain go. Let's deconstruct this. Let's get the essence and put that in something. How is it? Because it could have been about pigeon not going to the symphony. How? No. Well, then it's a kid issue and what is funny and what is physical, but the question is, why do I resist what I love? Yeah, you get to the heart. And that's the philosophy. Yeah. Well, and hopefully something that a kid has experienced. Yeah. Because if you write a book about how awesome skydiving is, they're like, well, okay. Yeah, right. One day I miss I'll pay the 250 and get strapped to a stranger and jump on a plane. That's a, I think that's a really good point. I mean, you do want to make it, you know, simple. And there's also like just realizing developmentally where kids are. So the pigeon books, the pigeon is loud because not because he's obnoxious because he's not heard, but there are picture books. Picture books are books for kids who don't know how to read. Therefore, somebody reads it for them, usually someone who loves them deeply. So the kid who is getting a picture book read to them who takes a chicken finger and throws across the room. Yeah. That parent will say, please don't throw that chicken finger across the room. Yeah. They might even like chastise them, but they're not going to say, I don't love you. Get out of my house. Yeah. We owe, we owe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Early readers are elephant, elephant and piggy books. Early readers, kids usually tend to learn to read in a school setting and their social life is about new friends. If you have a brand new friend and you take their chicken finger and you throw across a room, that friend will say, I will never talk to you again. Yeah. So that's why elephant and piggy are reacting to friendship in a different way than pigeon. Pigeon. Yeah. Right. Because the pigeon is not heard, but the pigeon also has a protective layer. We hope that will allow the pigeon to explore his pigeoning. Yes. Yeah. Right. His first name is a thaw. Yeah. He's got to get over. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That is a burden. Right. So when you're writing anything like, I'm thinking, where are they? Are they on a lap? Are they at school? Are they by themselves? How are they? How are they doing what they're doing? And so then how does that hit? Yeah. We're getting close to the end, although it's considered for four hours, but I know I actually can't because I'm playing the catch, but also I really, and I love this. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you. Thank you share for this is. So I feel so perfectly in there. No, I mean, we really decided to bring the extra wide share today. I got a plan. They don't know they're both going to be on the show, but I got a plan. The other thing that I want to say, and this is to both of you, but typically I came through Moe, is that as a as a person in the world who's reading kids books and who's also analyzing the material from where my kid is not analyzing it and wondering who this person is, who's writing this book, and what are their intentions with wanting my kid to read a book? I first of all, I came through Jason. So I was like, Jason's not going to give me a bad person's book. Like just that's not he's not going to do that because he might be like, that's a good book, but don't you know what I'm in your house? You don't want that. I was like, this is a good person. And then to like sort of like online, like suddenly your social media, and I'm following, you know, I'm like, and I'm just like, this is, oh, this is a good person. And then I'm seeing like the cartoon versions of things and how you're, and how you're casting the voice actors and how the people are like, okay, there's a way in which you all are being effortlessly inclusive that reads, but it's also not didactic as we said earlier that I'm just like, but it's clearly intentional and it makes a huge difference. Thank you. We're trying to show the world as it is. Yeah. No, I'm sorry, we're not. We're trying to show the world as it should be. There we go. And we've also trying to be very intentional, not just about, including everyone in front of house, but also back of house. Yeah. I think that that's a trickier one also when you have a vision and you want to share that vision. Yeah. And then that sharing gets wider. So that's that's also a big part of it. So yeah, I would say one thing that maybe you know, you were good person is when I saw that Bobcat Goldway had directed one of your shows. And I love Bob. Bobcat. And so I was like, oh, he's a good person. He's a Bobcat Goldway does not. That is what the guy who burned down our Cineo Hall set. Yeah, no, like a version. Well, I was like, that's like, well, also he had matured since then, you know, Bobcat's great. Yeah. So I was really just like that was like that was an indicator. And then the evolution of naked mole rat gets dressed from the book to the that is a hit movie in our house. Right. And when it was a period of time, you couldn't find it anywhere. And that was a struggle because it was being asked for. But the way that you the mole rats became different shades of naked was like, I was like, it was just very appreciated, especially I think it came on around covenry. We were making a journey. Yeah. Yeah. So it was just like it also was the time when it was like again, the world as it should be. So I just, you know, I'm a member of the of the Mo Willems and the share Willems army. I'm a member of the Bruce Lee army fishbone army. There's a few. There's a few. There's a few. There's a few. But you have a lot of service. I have a lot of. Yeah. Hopefully you don't all call it once. But I'm certainly the Willems army makes me just feel like whatever whatever is needed for me or whatever I can do, it just makes me feel good to know that you are in that you are in the tour and the world doing this. And the other thing I want to ask you is about are you it feels like you guys are independent now? Is that the case? Like as far as like there was a deal with war. I mean, I'm not. I mean, we have a it's a it's a complicated thing. We are in a we are in a larger company and share is the chairman of the board of this company. And we're figuring out how to make the kind of stuff that we want to make at scale. And so a lot of that is about onboarding people that we've known for a while, brand new people giving opportunities. You know, I was 24 years old when Sesame Street said, do you want an audition to be a writer? And I don't know what they saw on me. I mean, I literally slammed the headwriters head in the doorway at one point because he criticized me and I didn't realize he was behind. I didn't know what I was doing. But somebody took a shot. And so we wanted to try and be in a situation where we could we could do something analogous in our small way. Yeah. So yeah, I just appreciate I appreciate the the effort that is put in and it's clear for those who are outside reading these books to our kids. Could you shout out some kids books that aren't that you think people should also connect with that are out there in the world? This is why I'm reluctant to do this. Okay, great. Because I'm always going to miss something. Okay. I'm always going to miss something in somebody. Here's my technique. Okay. Every time I go to a library. Yeah. I pick out a picture book by someone I've never heard of. Okay. You're going to get five six seven books. Yeah. I would hate to do a list and then I forgot something and not and not do it's right. Yes. I got you. But just I think the idea of just like always be looking for new always always and this is why the library is a magic place. Yeah. That's a good. Yeah. It is really really important. You can take the risk. Yeah. Just get a bunch of books. You're going to discover you're going to discover your Mr. Oak. Yeah. Right. I mean, that's how that happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is the process? Do you feel like it is when the world is the way the world is? Does that affect the process of creation? Sure. Okay. I feel like I think the the thought that I've come to most recently is the idea of universality is an ivory tower idea that I've clung on to for so long. And it is hard to let go of. I do think that we feel universal things shame joy and all of those things. But I also feel that narrative is a way to be seen. That's very specific. I've written a few books that are a little bit more didactic and I don't know that they connect as well. But yeah, I don't I I would love to be immune to interesting times. That is a great way to put that out. I would love to be immune to inching times. That's the first album from random ads. That's when they slow down. Oh, yeah. It's like Sergeant Pepper. Okay, guys. Yeah. Get back to your rich. There's definitely someone plays harmonically. I ask everybody. My penultimate question is charity or a foundation or a nonprofit that you think people should know more about that we can have this audience who loves homework and board. So we have two categories of things that we really care about. Food making sure that people have food eat is really my thing. Yeah. And your local food pantry. Yes. If you can give the money they can do very efficient things with it. That's why I learned that the aluminum kind of food, aluminum kind of community food banked it like if you if you give us a can of food that you bought for a dollar that's great but if you go as a dollar we can buy way more cans of food than you can. That's right. When we were in Massachusetts share did a lot of work with our local pantry but also with what we call the mothership there are larger regional groups that can buy in bulk. The food bank of western mass they did amazing work and they got big enough that they were able to build a larger building and hire local people to physically build that building to buy on us. So I think that your local food pantry but also that one step up. The other thing is that if you support the food bank that's one step up you're going to benefit the communities that are near you but aren't yours. Because they're the ones that are buying in bulk and they can get that food to those other sort of last mile places. So you have to find the food banks that are like the regional food banks. That's right. And they're going food bank to small food banks. But you want to open up your idea of what a neighbor is because if I'm only going to deal with the people in my area code. Yes. Yeah. There's need. Yeah. But two, three area codes out there. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in New York you don't have to go that far to go like there's need for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what was the other thing? You said those two years. And this I would just go back to food when people say how do you write good picture books? I say I'm well fed. And if we expect our children particularly our children who do not have all the resources to be their best they can't be their best hungry. For sure. I can't be less than horrendous human beings without regular snacking. Yeah. That's that's that's me. That's so yeah. The other one is books. And so I think in food we're able to do maybe more good for less people and getting books out there we can do less good for more people. Recently the last couple years most of our public donations have been with donors choose. I'm aware of the have where they're finding that to be really great. I I hate the idea that we live in a culture that demands philanthropy. Yeah. If you want to talk about the world as it should be the world as it should be should have no philanthropy. Yes. 100%. Not the world as it should be should have people not being philanthropic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a different thing. The way that Charles best from donor shoes who's the founder of donor shoes who's now the board is moved on to another company. But he says like donor shoes should be should exist but it should be for the real extra things. Yes. Like we want to go to Washington DC to see or we or we need another tuba you know not for like snacks and hygiene and books and classroom materials. But we need another tuba foundation if we got to that. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. We get just the cost of a cup of coffee. Yeah. Absolutely. We get every classroom in America. A tuba in every pot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's that's we need another tuba. That's that's the EP from random ants. We need another tuba foundation. That's the EP or maybe that's the band that opens for random ants. I figured out we'll put a flyer together. Um my last question and I never get to ask two people the podcast is called who's with me. Are you two with me? Hundred percent. Thank you. I'll get back to you. Okay. Uh fair. It's fair. It's fair. Well, you have my number. Yeah. Don't don't stay up late. Of course. I look. I love your random ants. I love what you're doing. I love the lane that you have created. Um I love how generous you are with people in different lanes. And I think that that also this is a hard time to be generous. And therefore generosity is more powerful. I appreciate that. I you know, I feel whatever this lane is. And I said, this whole this whole podcast here was me like, okay, I'm just going to head over there and do what I do. It's funny. You said earlier like stand up comedy and children books. Podcast is more expensive than those things, but it is another area where you can just sort of go to your own thing. Right. And just like thankfully, these people over here helping me stay on track. Right. You guys come sit on the chair. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Come on. Come on. You're all right. He's got to be glad. Come on. Both of you. Both of you. I know it is. Come on. Come on. Come on. He's going to give you props. You got to take that. That's all point. He's a sister. Come on. I'm insisting. He's insisting. Come on. Yeah. Come on. That's the best thing. I don't want to go. Yeah. Yeah. And here's the larger thing. Nobody does it alone. There's the point. So thank you guys. Yeah. They're blocking my shot. We've talked about this. Don't block my shot. You can come over. But don't block my shot. We have to talk all the time. No, it is. I also would say these are community people that I only met a few weeks ago. And I already feel like are like allowing me to be my weird. I'm going to be over here. So thanks. It's beautiful. It's great. I always feel like everybody thinks I'm weird. Well, they're right. And that's good. That's good. Yeah. But this moment, one thing that I learned for years and years in comedy, you always told, don't write on the nose. Don't write on the nose. And I think I disagree right on the nose sparingly. And when you mean it. Yes. Yeah. There you go. You guys have lovely noses. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, I knew this episode would be a special one. I didn't know how unique it was going to be. But it makes me feel like I was in a piece of of Willem's art. So thing. Yes. Yes. Yes. I feel like I'm, we just made a doodle. Who's with a doodle? It is a doodle. Yeah. I'm the last thing. Yeah. No, there are no such things as a wrong doodle. Anyone can do it. A drawing is made with an intention. A doodle has no intention. And that's what's great about it. So you're open to whatever this creator is. Whatever. Like share you come over here. Yeah. Whatever. These are all doodles. These are all the world. We're all human doodles. Yeah. Human doodles. There we go. I keep thinking of albums for random ass. All right. Thank you. Take care. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Who's With Me. Again, the podcast that is based on my substack. Please feel free to go to substack. Look up Who's With Me. Subscribe to my substack. Thanks to Mo and share Willems. Again, such a beautiful episode to have the two of them sitting down and talking about how they work together. Mo going deep into his artistic process and his craft. I think we don't talk about craft enough. We talk about great artists and and share really it was just so clear when you sit there and watch them talk to each other. If you listen to them, they are like that's couples goals. Mo and share willems and they've been and they've been couples for a while now. So it's nice to know you can still be couples goals when you've been at it for a while. I'm not saying they're old. I'm just saying they've been together for for they have an adult child. That's all I'm trying to say. Again, pre-order their upcoming book. We really like cooking slop links in the in the notes. Also, pre-order my new children's book with Adam Mansbock and Brandon Chambers, rock paper scissors cheese. Their book comes out September 29th. My book comes out October 27th. Also, check out the Mo Willems YouTube channel. It's called The Hidden Pigeon Channel. It's got a lot of great content for kids, a lot of great Mo Willems. All the characters from the books are in there. Check it out. All links will be in the show notes. And again, shout out to the causes they promoted the food bank of Western Massachusetts where they used to live. And I would just say if you're not in Western Massachusetts, you can also just go to FeedingAmerica.org and you can find out where the local food banks are in your area, in your city and also in your county and your region. Here, while I live in Oakland, we have the Alameda County Food Bank, Alameda County Community Food Bank. I think that's what it is. I always miss one of the seas. So, yeah. And also, they advocated for Donor's Chuse, which of course, I'm a big advocate for Donor's Chuse on the board of Donor's Chuse. You know, we'll drop a Donor's Chuse project down in there in the show notes. So, you guys can support some Donor's Chuse projects. Again, thanks to Robert Green Productions, thanks to Pushkin Industries, and who knows best productions, which is this guy. Thanks to Ragingston Machine for being a band. I'm wearing their sweatshirt today. And special thanks to Chris Datt from Fishbone for the theme song. And again, this week, do something good for yourself, for your community and for the world. This is Robert Smith from Business History. And like every small business owner you started with a dream, to do what you love and watch it grow, which you probably didn't dream about, keeping up with cyber threats. For cybersecurity in a changing world, there's MasterCard. For I don't know how long, maybe 12, 13 years, I've won a whoop band on my wrist. I started doing it because I met the founder of whoop at a conference. He heard that I was a runner and he said, "Oh, you'll love this. It's perfect for athletes." And he was right. I've won whenever since. Every time I work out, I see how hard I worked, how long I need to recover, I wake up in the morning and I get a complete picture of how my sleep went, which helps me understand the kinds of things that lead to a bad night, and the kinds of things that lead to a good night. It's sleep. long-lasting battery, and now with AI looking at all my numbers and coaching me. Woop is a winner. New members can try Woop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. That's Woop.com for your free month of Woop. One last thing before you go, you know that feeling when feedback notes and data are coming in from every direction, chat GPT work can make sense of it all. Turning scattered inputs into ready-to-review work. With your permission, work in chat GPT can gather context from apps and files, summarize incoming messages, rebuild decks, and help finalize high-quality documents for your team or clients. Stay in control as you move from a goal to polished work faster with chat GPT work. 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