MNC: VAR controversy in the Manchester derby & Rangers dominate Old Firm

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This weekend, Rory, every week, you seem to be at Whole? No, I decided to chase the goalless draws elsewhere this weekend, chap, as though it's one field. I've now not seen the last goal I saw live in Estadium was Nobel Mendy in the 30 second minute of the first day of the season. I think I should stop going to football, because I'm spoiling it. You've been to a game every weekend, have you? No, to be fair, I skipped one weekend, so that's two games in a two, no no draws in a row. Right, okay. What were you going to this weekend of interest? I'm waiting to see who I want to curse. All right. Speaking of which, we have had a very mixed record when it comes to managers joining us on the show and then how they go afterwards. So I'll apologise to Swansea fans now. Your manager will join us before 8 o'clock, Vito Matos will be with us around 10 to 9. Before then, there's a lot to get into. The bottom three, Fulham, Villa, and Coventry. We'll look at the old firm from yesterday and range is thumping win in the league. Cup will talk lead to an action this evening against Newcastle and we'll talk Manchester Derby as well. Let's get all the VAR golf out of the way. First of all, shall we? Monday nightclubs, why can't we just play football correspondent Dale Johnson? Is with us. Well, let's try and do this as tightly as possible so that we can then get on to the football. But the important thing here, in all of this and what pro-RF formally PGMOL have said, it's not that whether the goal should just stood or not, it's that they've got their process wrong. Yes? Basically, yes. Well, I mean, from what we can tell so far, I will probably find out more tomorrow when much official mics are up. I like to post on TV, so I'm sure we'll get played out. But what it seems is that when they've looked at Ender Fernandez, they just haven't taken into account that he was offside. And they weren't factoring in a potential subjective offside offense by him, jumping to head the ball, which was obviously one of the clearest offside offences you likely to see. So it's just an absolutely massive human error that should never have happened. And it's just quite remarkable to understand how it has happened. Because if they'd decided or spotted it or decided to look at the Fernandez thing more, they would have sent Michael Oliver to the screen. Yeah, and it would then be on him to decide whether he was interfering with play. Exactly, yeah. So they've passed Erling Hall and has been on side, but they haven't actually got to the point where they've realised that Ender Fernandez has committed an offside offense. So it's really remarkable that there's been no intervention. I apologize if you can't answer this question, because I haven't asked you whether you know it in advance. But you know, when we saw the World Cup, and there were about 17 people stood in a box all gurning at the camera for VR, as part of the introduction to the officiating team. How many are in the VR box at Stockley Park? So you've got the VR and the EAR, the Assistant VR. Now, what's the most remarkable of this situation is you've got Matt Donner who was VR, used to be a linemen, and then he retrained, he started again to become a referee, and then obviously he got the Assistant VR, who is also a Premier League linemen. So you've got two people who work as Assistant referees who should be able to identify when a player is committing a subjective offside offense. When we get the audio, do we hear the Assistant VR? So we hear both of them and the referee and the assistant. You'll also hear the replay operator for the technical replay operator saying, "Do you want this replay? Do you want that replay?" But yeah, I'm sure we'll hear that tomorrow, and we'll see exactly where it seems that they've gone wrong, but what it seems so far, it just seems to be an absolutely catastrophic human error. Because do you not think, Shane, all of that, perhaps the most supposed thing is that nobody went, "Um, should we look at him?" It's that obvious as it feels like it just literally didn't seem in the middle of the goal to three yards offside or whatever it was. My next thing is, Michael Olver's obviously the referee in charge, and he's the guy who has to make the decision, but obviously he trusts the VA or, but you know, Michael's standing around for, it seems an eternally waiting for this VA or thing to come in. Surely he can take a little jog over himself to the screen and just go, "That's what about him?" You know what I mean? Every goal. If it's clear and it's black and white, you go, okay, but there might be a bit of a holland, maybe just come and have a look, Michael. Because what Michael does? He stands there, looks at his watch and fends off their captain, you know, whatever Fernandez, whoever else he's fending off players, he just stand there waiting. Thanks, well then, is someone's way can he join in that conversation at the monitor? I think Harland, who is quite amusing to watch, Rory, in the whole of that process. I actually think Harland mows at one point. It's not me, it might be Enzo. Goodness. I think he does. Or quite possibly, when he said in the interview after the game yesterday that he knew pretty quickly that he wasn't offside, and I think he said he took it personally, that Michael Olver thought he might have been offside as early in Harland, and I'd never really noticed this, I'm sure it's true. Early in Harland sort of self-identifies as someone who's never offside. So he seemed to imply that he was pretty sure he was okay. But yeah, the fact that nobody thought, should we look at the fellow in the light blue shirt in the middle of the box? And he thought it wasn't for a person, or he can get it wrong, like, and then, but Dylan, you're saying there's an assistant? Yeah, I've had this before. There's an assistant human being in there as well. Would you know what I mean? We had this a few years ago as well in the game between Arsenal and Brentford where, and the problem was, is the VAI, at the time, was Lee Mason, and he was, there was so much going on with different things needed to be checked, but it's part of it, that he didn't actually check the player that was offside, who was Christian Norgard, who created a goal for Ivan Turney. So that was a goal that stood, which should have been ruled out, and that was a player who actually played the ball, but the VAI got so consumed with other factors that he didn't look at what needed to be looked at. So it's just a, while we're dealing with human beings looking at these things, unfortunately, you can't rule them out. I would, I twibble slightly with the idea that this is to do with human error. I think there is a human mistake in it, but I think it's a systemic error, and it's watching Sky in particular, and I know that match the day did the same, put up the graphic for the actual rules three times to try and explain once during the game, and then twice afterwards. And that I would agree with you, Rory, was going to be my point there, which is every time we do a game on Sky or they do it on the highlights, then you end up with either an offside law or a handball law, more often than not, they are the two. And they probably don't stick to one page of a graphic now. I mean, you probably have to go to a second page and sometimes maybe even a third page. And so the systemic part is they have made everything so complicated as we have discussed many times that now that the number of hoops they probably have to jump through within that box before they make a decision is getting ridiculous. And the final thing that I'll just throw to you before you come in is we've had eight seasons of the AR, and in that time the handball law rule whatever has changed twice. Laws relating to offside have changed four times in eight years. I mean it's nonsense. So what I'd say to start with is that there may be tweaks to offside, but in general terms the premise of offside hasn't changed that much. The interfering with an opponent which happened at the weekend, that was in the laws in 1910. You can go and look under the IFA website that there's always been there. The problem is that a lot of these laws that get put up on the screen on sky, people didn't need to know these laws. People went to watch a game of football and a girl was scored, a girl was ruled out, everybody went home, went to the pub talks about it, they didn't get this lesson in the laws of the game where it had to be spelled out to the paragraph by a paragraph to try to make them understand a simple game which they just want to sit and watch, and that's the issue. These laws have always been really complicated because you've got to cover eventualities for what things might happen, like what happened on Sunday, but people just don't want to know that. People don't want to get consumed by all these details, they just want to watch a game of football. Yeah, but the best example is, I'm sorry, the ground roll. The best example in Dale will know this. Do you know the hair pulling thing? Hair pulling last season was a straight red and you can think that was harsh and a little bit kind of excessive and you can think that football does occasionally have a weird desire to police things that don't actually do any physical harm at the same time as allowing stuff that does do actual physical harm to go a little bit less, to be punished a bit more lightly but hair pulling to me anyway and this is personal feeling. on sportsmen like at the very best. And so they had this rule last season, and it was a straight red. And then they went around the clubs at the end of last season, started this season and said, "What do you think of all these rules? "You know, can we have some feedback?" And it turned out that a lot of the plays thought it was a bit harsh, getting sent off of pulling someone's hair. So now they've come up with a rule whereby if there is a yanking motion, so at some point, Chapters, you don't have to sit on a stri-so for somewhere and say, "Was there a yanking motion on television?" Which I'm sure is the fulfillment of all of your career ambitions. - Well, I mean, that's a minefield in all sorts of different ways to be honest with you, but go on. - So you don't have to say that because they have complicated it. So now if it's a yanking motion, it's a straight red. If it's just a sort of gentle caress, like an affectionate rub of the head, it's either or it's nothing. - But this is the way that it works in the Premier League, is that it's not a case of pro-ref, as I've known now, going out and coming up with their own interpretations. It's always by survey from the clubs, the coaches, the managers. - But it still has the effect of massively confusing and everything. - Absolutely, yeah. - And that's what I agree with Chapters. I think with, you're doubly quite right and I would not claim to know the kind of history of it as well as you do, but they have taken rules that weren't necessarily quite complicated to strike that balance between consistency and common sense. And they have made them impossible to understand it. To the point where I actually think, a lot of the time, they're not entirely sure which bit they're meant to be doing, which is why we're using themselves, aren't they? - They're confusing all of them. - Yeah, that is right. I mean, the stuff you've said, Mark, about the tweaks over the years, I mean, it is really confusing. As an ex-player, trying to keep up with everything and all the little tweaks from season to season. I mean, it's crazy. I do have sympathy for the guys who made the errors the other day because they were bad errors. They were the safety net. And they just didn't make the right call, but they lost focus in a minute. But we all make mistakes. We do. That was a particularly bad one. - I just, you know, what happens now is, and it can be in this studio, Dale, it can be in. It can be in the sky studio. Something happens in a game and then somebody goes, what do you think that was, Humble? Or, and then somebody else goes, well, I think it is, but then I'm not 100% sure that, and then everybody scurries off and gets the whole law. And then five times out of six, you're still non-the-wise. - Humble's without a doubt it's the biggest mess that there is of all the laws from. This was changed in 2014, the process started. It wasn't changed with VR. It was changed because the IFR, the lawmakers, decided that they wanted to define Humble. They wanted to define it properly because they felt it was never properly defined. What they did, they created this menu of options for reasons to give a penalty. And so that's why we ended up with an absolutely massive spiking penalty is across all of Europe. They changed the Humble law about four or five times for both attacking reasons and for general for penalty reasons. And no one knows where they are. And also, let's not forget, we've now got this bizarre situation where we have different interpretations in the European leagues, depending on how, how, how, how has to they want to penalize it. So you can't get any consistency, and it's impossible to, to expect people to understand it. - You've, you've made it. - I can't just say, if Shae's daughter is listening this evening, your dad has got your sketch pad as his, as his pad. - They're watching at home. - She doesn't know about it at all. - As his pad to make his notes. So you know, when different pundits come in with different methods of making notes, you brought, you brought your door to sketch pad and a poo bag with you. - Where's the skinny cat? (laughing) The poo bag is a different story, I'll think about it. (laughing) - No, but just, sorry. Sorry, going back to yesterday on back TV, Oregon, obviously the Norribake talk on point was the red card on Foden. And it's the next match. I think it was a red card on Foden, but what I actually think as well, I think it was a red card on Fernandez because his, his, his offense was as bad as Foden. So why doesn't VAR, in my opinion, then step in and go, Michael, you probably got that right 'cause Foden's reacted shipily, I think, and he's, it's not a mad kick out, but the laws of the game, I think it's probably a red card. So Michael, I've ever seen that, but it may be, it might have missed the first kicking of Foden on the back side when he's on the floor. So I don't know why there was no communication between the two of them then. - That, that had to be the same, didn't it? - That was certainly logical. I think you said, on match of the day, Mark, it was a good line, even I laughed, it was a nudge with the foot, what's the difference between a nudge with the foot, different to, how's that different to a kick? - Yeah, for Danny Murphy called Bruno was a nudge with the foot. I'm like, that's a kick, isn't it? - No, but that's, that's the whole issue, isn't it? With large parts of VAR, they are, they are so subjective. It's like the clear and obvious thing. One person's clear and obvious will be different to the, to the next person. I mean, a couple of points finally, and then we'll, we'll get on to the football. So I've had a message here from someone involved in football. So is there, is there an issue that the problem isn't that the rules are that complicated, is that the refs don't know them? - I think that's, I don't think that's the case at all. I just think that they are complicated. And you can't expect everyone to fully understand them. I mean, I qualified as a referee a long time ago. Don't do it anymore now. But like, the process you go through to try and understand all the laws and all the different interpretations, the possible outcomes, what might not happen, what might not happen, what might happen, sorry. I think it's unlikely that these professional referees have been doing it now for some of them for 20 to 30 years. Don't know the intricacies of the laws that they're applying. - Adam in Tuting, I agree with Rory. It's not human error. Human error is a consequence of a weak system, not a cause of itself. The system, procedures, technology, training must be fixed or it will continue to happen. John in Hertfordshire, problem arose because opponents, fans, players and managers constantly moaning about refereeing, decisions, VAR, rule changes and the obsession with ref decisions are all a consequence of the wofl culture that has developed around referees. - And now I agree with that. - Now we're even more obsessed with referees than we ever were. - Yeah. - But why are you obsessed with referees? Have you got the big calls right yesterday in the Manchester diary? - No, I wouldn't even speak about this tonight. - I think it goes back years, though, Shay. But it's actually not as worse in Italy and Spain where, I mean, Italy they invented an entire machine so they could pick apart refereeing decisions. And there's a lot of Spanish, whatever the Spanish equivalent to the Monday night club would be like 95% just about referees. But I think it has, it did create an environment in which we kind of, what's the word? Like chastise them for not being perfect. And now we've introduced the system that's, there's just much, and I said to someone who's not like opposed to the VAR as a concept, but it's just much worse, it is much worse now. - I think the problem is is that people expect VAR to bring perfection to the game, but that was never the intention of VAR to bring perfection. It was supposed to correct certain things. And also, and as you mentioned subjectivity earlier, the fact is half of these decisions, people can just like argue about them. Like Shay said, oh, if they got the decisions right, then no one would be arguing. But the word, people would have disagreed with it and felt somebody should have been sent off or not sent off or there'd been other decisions in the game, like for instance, in some of the university's arsenal. The problem is you can't get a consensus. So you're never going to get a situation where people think that VAR is working well. - And Rory talks about the survey that they did for the hair pull. I was thinking when I watched Saturday's games, at some point will people start to mention size of shimpads if somebody goes over the ball in a, and I thought this with disaster, it's nothing against Jack Clarke, but Jack Clarke had like several players now, shimpads that are the size of postage stamps. So if somebody accidentally catches you, beat our proper shimpads on. - They actually had to change a lot to make it the player's responsibility to be wearing shimpads, because they're getting so much smaller and smaller that like you say, the pointless. - Is that an old man? - He could have had cricket pads on, and I was still able to be in a red flag. (laughing) To be honest, it was a terrible attack on business. I don't know what your argument is. - No, I just thought, I just thought, whether size of shimpads get brought, no. - Okay, but that will be funny with cricket pads on. Dale, thank you very much. I'm also now thinking on the Spanish Monday nightclub, who plays Chris's role. - El Club de Luna's notchy is what it would be. Who plays to? Who's the grumpyest ex-Spanish player? Pablo Alforo, the former severe defender, would be quite nasty. Can I ask that he had a trick that would, that even VAR would be on the spot. Alforo's a defender, played for Sevilla for a long time. I think he was a qualified doctor, and on the pitch, he was an occasional amateur proctologist. Chris and Shay, if you found out three or four hours after a football match, that the referees had been interested, so you know that role that beat you, he shouldn't have stood. How, sincerely, how would you respond to that as players? - Well, I was involved in a famous score at Franscores with a Terry Henry Hamball, and I don't think we've got over that yet, so that was 2009, perhaps I think it was. - Yeah. - Yeah, so I don't know if you feel an injustice in you? I guess these games are big, big, big, big in the big Darby, there's lots of stake for both sort of players and managers. - However, Dale, thank you very much for coming in. However, as Ray says, Chris, all of that has been the full focus of the media. The more present question is, how Manchester United plays 70 minutes against 10 men at home, and couldn't score? Isn't the issue really, and where the discussion should be, not whether that goal should just do or not, but what is going on with them? - Yeah, I think that that's absolutely spot on, and of course, you know, the goal happened, as Shay said, I thought that Bruno should have got the same punishment as Phil Foden. Regardless of that, if you're a Manchester United fan and then you watch your team play against Sydney in a Derby game, and it is as as flat and as slow and as ponderous as Manchester United were when they had the new miracle advantage, that would be that would be the the major concern and and the start to the season as a whole we're only four games in. But, you know, then you then you look at a hole at the summer and and the lack of activity in terms of Manchester United bringing players in. You you look at Michael Carrick's decision making. I didn't know I get way plays couldn't you as a center forward. But as soon as as soon as photo went off, surely there was a case of you know, sesco's a you know, a different type of forward to occupy center halves. But but surely you know, you'd throw him on I thought he was late in getting him on maybe it's just because he doesn't rate him. So there are there are a lot of there are a lot of things I think that that Michael Carrick needs to take responsibility for and you know, he he's always quite level headed and calm and I like listening to him. Talk doesn't get too high doesn't get too low, but Manchester United, you know, need to start addressing the situation and need to start performing at a level. To really get the season up and running because it you know, that wasn't good enough yesterday. Yeah, they were talking about obviously, Manchester United were we didn't do many favors could don't you tell me and a man said it because then they had the setback and defend low and defensive shape because. My native are very very like a transitional team with the speed of course and where more rush for them and Kune, but when you got that numeric numerical advantage, chap, as you have to you have to do something different, I mean, I think Kune is not a number nine is he. He feels like he's playing at a position. I mean, sesco's the obvious one. I don't know why he's not starting. I know he maybe had an injury priest or whatever, but at the same time he must he must be able to work him to get him on the pitch, but I don't know. I will go back to the man city yesterday, the performance they had and how they control it felt that stages whenever went down to 10 and that the United had 10 and because he just kept it past that you couldn't get the ball off him and that's a frustration from from from my native fans, there were just. There was no sort of sense of urgency had felt and maybe that that's because man said he played so well, perhaps I don't know. And last season, Manchester United had had had an issue against teams, which defended deep or low block, whatever, whatever you want to call it and you know. Well, also Chris, also Chris, they have a they have an issue against teams when the opposition get reduced to 10 men. So three times in the last 12 months, they've lost when the opposition has gone down to 10 men and gone down to 10 men with a considerable amount of the game left to play at home to have it and when it just have gone the game was sent off after the fight with is with Tarkowski wasn't it sent James Michael keen second. It said James is part Jacob Ramsey sent off as half time approach there and then feel fired midway through the first half yesterday. They've got a problem when the opposition get reduced to 10. That's one thing. Yeah, you know, absolute and I think there's an element of, you know, of Manchester United players just looking to Bruno and for him to to create something. There's not not a lot from elsewhere, but I also think as a Manchester as Manchester United fans, the way that they would be feeling about the underwhelming summit, I do think it matters because they did finish the season. It's really strongly third place everybody on a high and then you then you want to see them sort of go again in forward areas. I think Carrick just isn't having says go that's that's you know my view I think he's come off the bench four times this season. I think he came off the bench a lot of times last season so if if Carrick worked wonders last season as he did, why not why not you know. Let him bring in players who he wants to bring in because you know, Cesco, don't you couldn't use not the answer as a centre forward. And we know why couldn't you places it as a centre forward it's to sort of drop in and get little overloads and whatever you but I just didn't get it yesterday. I understand that the tactical element of the game, but you need to score a goal. So you have to have a centre forward on who's going to occupy defenders you can get crosses in you know that's a legitimate way of scoring but all of a sudden Carrick didn't throw him on early enough. Hang on though Rory, weren't we told that Manchester United were going to fix the attack last summer and then this summer was the summer they fixed them in field. But what Chris says they haven't fixed them fix the attack and then next summer is meant to be the summer they fixed the defense. Yeah, I think it's slightly harsh to accuse United of having an underwhelming summer. I think what they had was a summer that wasn't there wasn't kind of unsensible and we've we've we've criticised United for years and years and years for kind of following fads or for thinking short term or for doing things reactively. It feels harsh and a bit hypocritical to then say, well, they didn't you know they didn't get involved in a ridiculously inflated market they picked players who I think we probably all thought. Telemens was a smart sign in a belabor they tracked for a long time and they Santos maybe was a bit overpriced but you can see why they did it. Why did they do it? If you can see why they did it, why did they do it? Well, he's young. I think you can play lots of different positions. He's obviously got talent and you do need you need bodies in midfield to an extent and I think what 4748 million was a lot for a player who's probably a squad option at the moment. But if you haven't got the money to then go and strengthen elsewhere, but you want a left back and maybe another defender and maybe another attacker. Why sign? Why go for Edison and then miss out on Edison and then why go why go for Santos if all along you think you're going to get belabor? Well, I mean, I would guess that in the in terms of the latter, it's just they thought they needed three midfielders rather than rather than just two. The Edison thing is weird. I don't understand kind of what happened to it. I think Edison's actually said he doesn't quite understand why it fell apart before he signed his new touch up with that a Lancer. There's a suggestion of an injury, but I don't I don't know what the cause of it was. I wonder whether the issue that United have got is that if you don't have an unlimited budget and we talked last week, I think about the fact they don't have lots and lots of players to sell, which means it's difficult to spend huge sums of money in the transfer market given the way prices have gone. You probably do have to cut your cloth a little bit and yeah, look, they look underpowered. They've clearly got an issue when when they're expected to dominate the game. I think they're retored when they have less than 50% possession in a game is much better than they're retored when they have more than 50% possession in the game. And that obviously is exacerbated when you're against the team with 10 men who want to kind of have an issues, Harlan said that yesterday as well that they kind of have to sit in a little bit. They have to buy the time. They have to wait for their chance and hope that everyone forgets what the offside rule is. One of the other points that maybe you'll agree on more, but I'll go to Rory that Danny made last night was a year ago, well, roughly a year ago, Chelsea went to Manchester United and had their goalkeeper sent off inside the first five minutes. And Mariska made two changes very early on in that game that were both defensive. I think it may have been Cole Palmry took off and there was another attacker that he took off and he'd invited United onto Chelsea that evening, although they're very nearly Nick something at the end of Chelsea. And their point was actually Mariska had learned from that experience and very much kept things as it didn't over not over react, but didn't let things play out after the phone and red card until half time before making his change. Yeah, I was at that game, I'll drop it. I think it was Esther, was Esther Val, he took off as well. Esther Val and Pedro Neto, they were the two who took off here. Yeah, and he went very defensive very quickly. And I wonder whether yesterday he worked out that look, it's okay to try and just kill the game a little bit. Take control of the ball when we can see if United can break us down. And as you get through the first five, 10 minutes and you see that maybe they aren't putting through that they aren't making a huge advantage of being a man up. Maybe you think, okay, yeah, let's get to half time. I don't know this, but my instinct would be most managers. Even as she says, you know, when it's the obvious thing to do tactically, probably don't want to take a player off in the first half unless they really have to, because it is. There's an element of kind of you're risking the player having a bad reaction, I suppose. But I think that the last few weeks have been, have been really impressive from Mariska in a way that has done sort of under the radar. Does that is that is an impossible job replacing not just the kind of the best coach in city history, the best coach in the lead. But this kind of towering figure who's redefined English football and kids play out from the back now. It's all but is a pair. And then quite an understated way, Mariska's won every single game. And yeah, Bournemouth wasn't that impressive and comps, he wasn't that impressive, but they went in one in Porto midweek. That's another challenge pass, winning after you've been in the Champions League. He has not put a foot wrong, Mariska. And you know, with questioning whether Manchester United have made the right signings and that's a debate to be had. So he had the option yesterday could have at Rico Lewis on he could have put who son of finally could have put a Riley on which, you know, moved some end to the other side. He had various options, but that just shows what a what a smart piece of business bringing. And Gyan who we thought he was all off to Tottenham, but but to bring him in and have that trust to know he's going to work hard defensively. I mean, that looks to be a brilliant piece of business from Manchester City. Would you go along with with Rory that he hasn't put a foot wrong yet? No, I would say, yeah, sorry, I would agree with him. I think he's done. I mean, it was nice to see him at the end of the game. He's gone over to their wayfans and you can see the smile in his face because obviously they had the dig in deeper times. And there's a togetherness, I think as well. And I've sort of said this before, but Pep leaving, you know, he's you can never knock what Pep Doni's going to go down as an absolute legend of the football club. But that same voice every single day, you know, the demands and stuff and maybe they're likes to fill phone or even church at times last year, maybe didn't see the idea. We pep, so there's a new voice, a freshness within the club. You said that's a good thing, pep left there. Yeah, if you want to be put, we want some headlines on the show then I think it was maybe time, ten years is a long time and I just think that the demands and you know, I've seen some of the documentary stuff and pep was looking a bit tired and says I've had enough for this type thing, you know, so I think the freshness of Marisco bringing, of course he's brought his own staff in as well, so that's all fresh and new for the players and the people around the training. And so I don't think it's a bad thing, Chris, if you want to put me on the spot, yeah? You can understand that, Chris, can't you? I mean, you know, after a while, you get fed up of here in the same voices, especially after a decade, maybe. Maybe more. Yeah. Yeah, maybe time for, yeah, maybe time for a call, yeah, that's cool. Let's judge Manchester City on Friday morning, that's what, that's what I would say. Judge, let's judge City on Friday morning, after not, after not reaching the league cup. Is that where you? My goodness. Yes. There you go. Yeah. The big one. That's the big test. What's real good a team in the Premier League? He's playing us. I was a start of phone, don't you think Chris? Yeah. Big fills in charge. Wait and see. Can you change his end zone? The other final thing that I would say about Marasca, I don't know if you noticed this worry or not. He seems, and I thought this one, I interviewed him before the Crystal Palace game. He actually seems so much more relaxed than maybe, I don't know, there was a lot going on at Chelsea over the last six months or whatever, but he really, he feels very, yeah, calm and, and personable and like he's enjoying it. Why are you laughing, Chris? No, because he's, because he's winning and probably the sports scientists aren't badgering in every second. Well, you're back to the sports side. I wonder, I mean, that, that might be a fact, he, he, he, he, he will probably just find City a more conducive environment than, than he, he obviously did Chelsea. The other thing is, like, if you think about how we're all trying to play out, Maresta lost his job at Chelsea because he told them he'd been speaking to City, which means that, what, eight, nine months ago, City knew that he was, he was the guy they wanted to replace Diola if Diola left, that's a pretty big vote of confidence, which means that he's probably in a place where he feels like he's wanted and valued and it's, it's, it's a place he knows, obviously, he was there as, as a member of PEP staff in two different roles for a couple of years. This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. Top timbers always busy, Whole Foods Market can help their September stock up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful nourishing food. Get dinner going with canned soups and veggies, lean on frozen pizzas, pastas and seafood everyone loves. Their build your own family meals feeds for for just $35 stock up at Whole Foods Market. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and Your Dead To Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts, add free with an Amazon Music subscription. And just when tennis fans were looking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights, one of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt. Monica Celeste has been stabbed by a spectator. This man stole her story from her. Sports, strangest crimes, Tennyson's Darkest Hour. Listen on BBC Styles. This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman on the football daily podcast. Shake it. Chris Sussan, Rory Smith with us on the Monday nightclub. Let's talk to former Rangers midfield, Scott Arfield next as we turn our attention to the old firm Rangers making it through to the Scottish League Cup semi-finals with a big win over Celtic. Do you feel Scott or do we have to wait a little while? Whether that is a turning point for Rangers? No, I think it's a great start. It's a great start. It's been a lot of negativity since Derek McKinnis was appointed. There was a lot of negativity with the players, the recruitment, but I think they've done a strong way. They're right in there. That's five wins at a five in the last five games. So I think that now there's momentum. As everybody knows that football is full of momentum, everything you can build it in weeks and months and seasons and it can get taken away very, very quickly. So I think they're in a good rich vein of form right now and it's all about keeping that momentum as much as they can. To beat your rivals very, very convincingly, we'll go a long way to settle the noise up here. I'll just get. So they obviously had the nightmare result against Jablonech in the Europa conference league. Since then, they've won at Pitordry, they've won at Falkirk, they've beaten Motherwell, they've beaten Semiron. All of them only buy a goal, only a goal in it in all of those games. So Mugley victory is in there. Puddin? Mugley victory. I'm just giving. Well, I wasn't asking for that at that moment. I was just giving context to Scott in that. Whilst those wins have been there, whether they've been ugly or not, they've won them. But yes, it was the first day they managed to put daylight between themselves on another side. Yeah, yeah. And it was very convincing. It's probably as easy a game against Celtic, I've seen in a long, long time Celtic game, heavy, heavy favourites yesterday. And it just rose to the occasion. It was just a from minute one to the ten and eight, a minute, ranges by far the superior team. Obviously, no Celtic fans in the stadium, obviously has a massive effect on the players. And it'll be reciprocated next week because obviously it goes again next week and it's a reverse fixture. So I did had a lot to do with it, but as he says, I think the attacking options now that ranges got a little bit more depth and Kelsey coming in there, a massive, massive price tag. Ranges paying £9 million for a striker, he had to make an impact, he played in Wednesday night. Never really got going. But he's made a lot of people happy with that price tag yesterday, obviously getting his goal. And attacking options, now there'll be progression. Now there's optimism around the full club now. Derek McKinnis has talked about togetherness. He said, I love the togetherness and need to have a team who cares for each other, has love for each other. When things aren't going well, you sometimes see the true strength. We've had some soul searching and tough times the past few weeks. Can you see it togetherness? So I'm not just talking about the team spirit, I'm talking about how they are playing. Can you see things starting to gel before Chris comes in with some disparaging comment or other? I'll be unlikely. I wonder what it is, Scott. I wonder what it is. I'll be unlikely. Well, obviously, if you win games, you're obviously going to be happy. I think I think there's going to be bigger tests going forward, starting next week at Celtic Park. I think that's it. That'll be the true test. It's easy to be fairly optimistic and high-fiving each other in cuddles when you've got 50,000 behind you. So I think that's a fantastic start, as I say, as an absolutely amazing performance. But I think the true test going forward, you're talking about togetherness and a real team spirit. I think that'll be really tested. Come to elbow clock next Sunday. Go on, Chris. I agree a lot with what Scott said. I think that was a hugely significant win for Derek McKinnis, because you spoke about the winning run they were on, Rangers. It wasn't pretty. Beating some mirror and late on, full cook, they were fortunate to win, but they did win. He sort of needed a statement victory. I think there was a lot of talk going into this game, which manager was under the most pressure. But the way that he set his team up and James Penreis left back in an inverted role in the middle of the park, and Derek's team's over the years, he likes to go man for man. And they ran all over Celtic physically, they were far, far superior. I agree with Scott as well. Let's just wait till after the game on Sunday and see. But I have great concerns about Celtic, and I've said this from the start of the season. Celtic's midfield is lightweight. Celtic's midfield is talented, but it's lightweight. They can't run. They don't have the legs. McGregor has been a brilliant player. He's got Negra in the Swedish international. There was a big debate about him last season. He's got a brilliant instinct for goals, but he can't run. And then they brought in Bauer from Germany. And they just got outpowered in their, Rangers were far more robust and ran all over them. I've got to say I didn't agree with the Celtic starting lineup. They brought in the Egyptian international played at the World Cup. Who I think is a little bit frustrating in terms of his final ball. times. But I haven't seen anybody able to sort of really handle him in terms of his dribbling ability and he was on the bench. I don't know what the actual reason was him for being on the bench, but I thought that handed, uh, range as a, you know, a massive initiative and Celtic were never really in the game and Celtic have big issues because the two big tests they've had this season away, uh, in, uh, against Lask in the, uh, in the Champions League, which was a disastrous performance, where guess what? They got ran all over in midfield. And then, you know, you, you look at, you look at what Martin and Neal said before that game. And I've mentioned him before, honor angles when they sold him to West Ham, which is fine. But, uh, but they've never replaced that player like for like with profile. And, and so they don't, they don't have that legs and energy in someone who can cover the ground in midfield. And I always, I always felt when you, when you play against better teams, Scott was an excellent midfielder himself. I occasionally played in midfield. Oh, not again. But you do, but you do, but, but, but, but, but, but, but that element, you know, it's okay being a good footballer, but Celtic have a midfield who are good at five aside, but they, you know, the game is played on a big pitch. You have to, you have to be able to cover the ground and get about the pitching and compete. And Celtic don't have the midfield made up for that, they've signed, they signed two midfielders, I think, on deadline day, who were, who were, um, attacking midfielders by all accounts. So they haven't replaced like for like, it's just, it just feels like Celtic. They just, the way the club is run that they just want to do enough, just finish ahead of ranges, finish ahead of hearts. And they've got the Europa this week. And when you look at ranges now, don't have, uh, Europe, they're in a pretty good position. This may all change at the weekend. And we may see, you know, uh, ranges go under at Celtic Park, but I bet there's a leg up the lift that the ranges players got from that performance. That, that does feel significant. And it's up to Celtic to respond. He, and sort of following on from that then, Scott. So six players made their old firm debuts for ranges yesterday. So will that benefit them when they go to Celtic Park, which will obviously have a very different atmosphere to it. And let's not forget Noah Waifans there either. So does that has, is it important that they've had that experience already or am I comparing chalk and cheese? No, it's, it's a very strange game. It's the best game in my opinion. It's a best game in world football. It's the biggest, the repercussions and everything that goes with it is just so drastic need to be up here to live it. Obviously, Chris has lived it as well. So you need to be up here to understand it. I think the experience is one thing. One is another thing, but I think they're so unique. They are so, so unique because whenever you think it's going to be a copy and paste, it can become a completely different game. And I think the experience of the game, the magnitude of the game, you have to, you have to feel it, you have to be there. And really to understand what they're bragging rights for the both sides. Can I ask a really stupid question? Does it still feel like a proper old firm without a waifant? For me personally, no, no, it doesn't, it doesn't. We grew up watching these games and the colour they both sides is as a proper game. There's obviously the, the minority. What happened last season, obviously, I've changed this again. When I came back up in 2018, there was only, there wasn't anyone. Then there was 700 supporters allowed in each side of the stadium. So it wasn't, no, I wouldn't say it is a true old firm game, but the repercussions and everything that goes about the magnitude and the, the demand of the game is obviously still there. And that will never ever go away. So to live it, to feel it, I think these players will go a long way from to experience it. And, and getting a victory, and getting a victory is absolutely huge. It'll be a copy and paste again from Derek McHarris. On, on Sunday, I'll try his best to obviously mirror it, but Mark Vanille is, he's a very clever manager. I think he'll come up with something a wee bit different. As Chris said, James Penley's coming in in the middle of the pitch and just man-marking Negren, who's the only goal flip from midfield for, for Celtic. And it was an absolute masterstroke. He was my man in the match. I thought he was excellent and a great addition to, to this team, I think he'll do it again, because you, you give Negren any 20 yards out, he's going to find the corners of the net. So I thought that was a massive thing. I'll be a copy and paste, but it's such a unique game. And me and Mr Sutton will be sitting next to each other the best, the best seats in the house again watching it. I was just going to ask you, Scott, briefly about Celtic. In a sense, you know, I'm still in, because I'm obviously Celtic background and, and of course, I'm still trying to get over the last result in the Champions League was just like to be four and a little bit, I still can't get my head around that. Martin mentioned just about a reset button or a wake-up call after the game or whatever, whatever exact word it was. I mean, is, is, is, what's the, what's the, what's the sort of media up there like today? Suppose it's from Celtic point of view, is it, is it harsh? Yeah. Oh, sure, you can imagine, you can imagine. Yeah, I was, I was listening to a few interviews, Karla McGregor's interview after it was very, very damning. And he, he said a few things. It was Ringer's defended as a team and settled it with a team in the vigil. So for the captain to come in, I think that's just that. I kick up the back side for, for the magnitude of the game. This week in particular, obviously, they'll start on a Europa League on Thursday and then the huge game again on Sunday. So, yeah, everything that you thought could have been written about as Celtic players, it's, it has been written as you can imagine me. Yeah. The, the problem Martin and Neil has is, is, what, you know, what can he change? What, what can he do? On the face of it, are we going to be truthful about Celtic? This season, they've been flat track bullies. You know, they've beaten a lot of teams in, in truth, you'd expect them to be. And yet, in the, in the big tests, they've not just come up short. They've come up well short. I think that's mainly because of Celtic's midfield area. But then he's got a problem with that Camilo Juran. You know, where does, where does he play him? Has got him and, and Casper who, and he could play two up top? Well, it, would he go back to a, a, a, a, a back three, which he did when, when I was there, but then you got question marks over who the wing, wing backs going to be for Celtic? I don't think Martin can go to a 4-4-2 because Celtic will just get mulled in the, in the middle of the pitch. So six players came in around deadline day. So that surely gives an option. It was, it was, you know, but you said, what can, what do you mean, come on? You said, you said, what can he do? What can he do? What can he do? And I'm saying, well, isn't that panic on deadline day and bring, bring players in, bring a left back in who's barely played a game of football who's injured and can't replace Kiran Tinney who never last 90 minutes. That's great logic. That's really well worked out. From, you know, brilliant, brilliant recruitment there. I mean, it's just, it's just bonkers. Martin and Neil's on radar. People don't need me to say this. Martin and Neil is on record about, was on record about the need to replace Anna Wrangles and, and that profile of player. And they haven't done that. That is, that is, that is taking a risk. Why would you, why would you take such a risk like that? And they'll address it in January. But at this moment in time, the way that Ranges won this weekend, and I know it's a different kettle of fish going to Celtic Park. But, you know, I don't know what Martin can, can do really to, to, to change that midfield area. He's just got a hope that they can compete in a more, a more robust, you know, he might bring the boy, um, um, Oliver Sorenson in. Uh, but, but, you know, where does, where does he fit? Who is he going to drop? But, you know, as I said, I think if he starts to, they've lost Yang to the Asian Games, who's the Celtic left winger, who's had a particularly good start that the season. Uh, I think that he, he was badly missed. The guy they replaced him with, to Nick, he was, you know, didn't have a lot of courage and never ever thought that he could be douche on sterling the, the Ranges, um, right side at player. So he was a disappointment. A lot of Celtic fans were surprised he started. But that was, you know, it's a difficult one for Martin because what does he do? Start James Forest, who's, you know, getting on a bit on that side. But I think if, if his hand starts at the weekend, then Celtic will certainly offer more of a threat and try and push Ranges back. But the best player, Camilo Juran, sort of, he ended up, he finished the game on the left hand side. I don't know, they've ever played on the left hand side. But you need to, you need to keep him happy, I think, and play him in his favoured position, which is center forward. But then they've got Casper, who, uh, you know, the 11 billion signing who, you know, many things. That's not really going to make that much of a difference because Oxlade Chamberlain has been a brilliant player, but he can't, he just can't run like he used to. He can't cover the ground. And that's, that's the issue, isn't it? And that's where Ranges, if you're Derrick McKinnis is thinking, "Blimey, we can run all over them again." They can't afford to lose this Ranges, can they? Really? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. They're obviously favourites to go in and lift the trophy. It's the first trophy the season, and up here, so it's so, so important, and it'll go a long way, obviously, to start Derrick McKinnis's legacy. So it's a huge, huge opportunity, need to get through Aberdeen first, and then obviously into the final, but, as I say, as momentum, they've got it now 585. Doesn't matter how you win, it was the most important thing, obviously, getting the victory in Aberdeen, but it's now about positivity and positivity because they go out to Europa, Europa League, they go out to the conference league, qualifiers, and it was disastrous for Ranges after August to not be in European competition. But, as Chris has said there, Celtic playing in Thursday, after a big result, yesterday, then playing in Thursday, again, And then for the big game, a week for this preparation could go a long way again for, for Rangers to get the victory and it could just be too much for Celtic. We're talking about the, the physicality and the middle of the pitch. That's why I was asking about Oxley and Chamberlain. Obviously coming in, maybe making a little difference, just putting a wee bit of quality in the middle of the pitch. Might do that in Thursday, might do it on Sunday, but I think the, the disaster is start that Rangers have had. It might actually play right into, right into the hands, come the energy levels in Sunday. Scott, do you think that that kind of winning at the weekend and potentially, as you say, with that advantage of not, not having to play midweek? Does that kind of get, making this is rain back on track, or is there still a little bit of a shadow cast by what happened at the start of the season? Oh, yeah, 100% there is some negativity there. It's honestly, it is unacceptable for Rangers not to be in the European competition after August. It's just, you know, you need to, you need to try and be in that any competition after Christmas, never mind in August. So of course it was disastrous, but he's now gone a long way. It always speaks so, so fair about his assessments in the game. He's always got a real fair assessment of it. He knew it was a disaster to start, but all you can do now is try and, try and beat your rivals as consistently as comfortable as you could. He's went a long way yesterday to do it, and he's got another chance and six days time to do it again. And gradually, gradually, it might, might obviously overcast everything that's, that's happened there in August. Scott, thank you very much. We talk about the difficulties of playing Central Midfield in an old firm game. I have a match report here from 2000. You're right, Chris. Have a match report here from 2004 when Chris played in Midfield for Celtic against Rangers. Unfortunately, Alan Thompson was sent off in that game. So the report then goes as follows. O'Neill's response to his team's predicament was predictable. He removed the disappointing onery camera, brought Pearson off the bench and pushed Sutton forward to lend his considerable weight to the attack. The big Englishman who's been, the big Englishman who's been consistently telling influence for the parkhead side since his arrival in Glasgow on this occasion rewarded his manager with the most foolish sending off imaginable. Having been cautioned in the first half for a high challenge on Alex Ray, Sutton lasted only 11 minutes at the second before reaching out to handle a header from Marvin Andrews back to class. Yeah, that was the position of the arm if we'd have had VRR back there. I'm sure I'm sure to say that. Oh, dear. So sent off in that. You did, yeah, sent off, yeah. Researches on fire. You think this stuff of your own. That's a bowling. Scott, thank you very much for being with us. Scott, I feel former Rangers Befielder with us on the Monday nightclub, and you can listen to the old firm on Sunday here on five live. Shay Chris Rory. Thank you very much. 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