MNC: Serie A nostalgia & are Villa being kept out of the 'Big Six'?

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We'll talk about Ashton Villa and Jamie Carrega, Barbara Bruggan and the Brighton Defence, the underlying data behind Sunderland and Forest seasons, and we'll get nostalgic about Serie A. It is November the 2nd. Chris is in a studio, and not at home, so we don't know whether your Christmas tree has gone up yet. They are, they are mostly up, yeah. They're up. They are up, yeah. And it's just proof I've been a while weekend. This is nothing to do with me. It just shows, might say, what say I get in the house. There is someone else on tonight's show who has also been putting up some Christmas decorations. Well, my daughter, Cassie, I have to put her under the bus here. She went yesterday morning on the 1st of November. The first thing she done was go in the garage on her own, she's only nine years of age, and started ruffling through the garage. Well, she's allowed to be excited there, and I mean, yeah, she's got a little toy soldier out of the front door, and her in there already. So you've got that outside your house on the doorstep, she's buzzing, girl. What sort of toy soldier? I don't know, is that not a Christmas thing? Yeah. Depends on what the soldier looks like, I think. What does that say? Well, he's a toy soldier, he's not that aggressive, is he? No, you know, like, yeah, I know. I know, not crack it. Yeah. Yeah, okay, that's all right, yeah. Right, sinister that, Rory. Not like, it's not like Action Man, but I would assume, where they have Rumble. Right, let's talk Hastin Villa, and everything that's gone on with the supposed legal action, not supposed, the threat of legal action against Jamie Karraka, which they dropped today. Their, their statement, originally, on Friday evening, the post on their social media, and as their intention to initiate legal action against Jamie Karraka for his unacceptable insults about the club and its fans, and the post attributed to their chairman, Nassif Sueris, went on to say, "The club will not allow anyone to stop our ascension in English and European football." The comments that were thought to have angered Villa and their, their chair, was Jamie saying, Hastin Villa will never be Manchester United. There's a food chain in football, whether you like it or not. So Real Madrid will take Manchester United's best player, and there'll be teams below Hastin Villa, and they'll take their players or manager. He then had a message for Hastin Villa fans and ended with Hastin Villa will never be Manchester United. Now the reaction has, there are two sides to this. So Simon, Simon Briggs in the telegraph wrote this, which is the best, you know, a great line here, and could take as down a different path. But Simon says, "Of all the death statements to come out of Hastin Villa, and I mean, including Doug Ellis's frequent claims that he invented the bicycle kick." Which should be a segment in itself, really. It's hard to think of anything as absurd as suing a pondit for speaking the truth. That's one side of it. Jacob Townswell in the athletic said that seeing your figures at Villa, some seeing your figures at Villa share so iris frustration at the narrative he feels has been shaped and believe the own statement sends a clear message that certain members in the media, many of whom played for big six teams, continue to undermine the ambition and size of other teams intent on climbing to the top. And there was a very interesting social media post as well. I'm just trying to give all the opinions before we discuss it. This came from Book of Aegis on social media saying, "NASIF isn't suing Carrega because he thinks a high court judge is going to slap a damages order on a rant. He's doing it because the entire media class has spent years treating Villa as a convenient stepping stone and a permanent second tier." So when you take all of that into account, Rory, I will start with you and then we'll come to two former Villa players who are on the Monday night of this evening. Is it about how Villa are perceived and treated, both by media and also maybe by within the Premier League system that they may well believe that the big six and avert of commas are trying to keep them out of the big six? Yeah, I think that's probably right, Chapters, that there's kind of two things. One is, and we don't have to attribute the statement to Sewerist, his name appears. He's at least endorsed it. I don't believe he's written it himself, but he's at least endorsed it. So there is no world in which that is not a bananas thing to do. Like for a start, so just to anyone who doesn't fully understand UK libel law, loads and loads of really rich people come to England to sue people for libel because the way our system works makes it really easy to do that. It's libel now essentially means something a rich person didn't want to hear. That's what libel has come to mean in the English system. But even by that standard, what Carrieder said, there is no world in which you can take legal action about that. It's opinion, it's protected. He didn't send defamatory. There's just nothing there. So by initiate legal action, they might have meant rena lawyer, and the lawyer will have said, "No, can't do that. Nothing there. Sorry. Bye." I think the other thing is that Sewerist, you know, we've seen a plenty of billionaires out there with really thin skins. That seems like a fairly obvious explanation for it. I think what Carrieder said, and I like Jamie a lot, I think it seemed unnecessarily aggressive towards Villa. I think the bit that you've left out is this is a family show, Chapters. I think that is probably unbecoming of a pundit of Carrieder's Classies. Was that not a bit of a throw away though? It was Chris. I think he meant it, and I think the tone in which people say things should always be taken into account. I thought that was a, and I think he would say to himself that was just a throw away line at the end of what you'd say. I say this with affection for Carrieder, but I think he's apologised. I thought his apology was probably unnecessary and Villa shouldn't have threatened to sue him basically, but I think he will probably reflect that maybe he went just a little bit too far in saying that, but I take the point completely. The more interesting aspect to me, does it. That statement strikes me as just being a rich person throwing their toys out at the bram effectively. But the more interesting point is how they perceive the chain. On the one hand, I do understand this and sometimes I don't understand this. Fans of clubs want to feel that they are represented in matches that they are being broadcast in, so that somebody has their point of view. They do. Well, yeah, that's definitely become a thing. This idea that pundits are there to advocate for one of the teams they used to play for, which is not what used to happen on television. I'm very conscious that we're all part of this. Yeah, we are all part of it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you three more than me, but it is, you know, we're all kind of complicit to an extent, but yeah, like this idea that you have to have the city person put in the city side is that's not what it's meant to be at all. Like there was a long, long time when you, it was almost the opposite that you, you kind of had people who'd tell you something about the game from a neutral perspective. That was the idea, whereas now it seems to be get, you know, the Liverpool guy in the United kind, see if I'll have an argument. That's the idea. That's the content we want. And I think, I mean, I think that's terrible, but it seems to be the way the world's gone. I think with Villa, it's really pronounced as they, the club as a whole does seem to have bought into this idea that there is a, like a sustained attempt to stop and to Boris O'Reilly's words to stop their ascension to the top of English and European football. What's the evidence for that then? There's two bits of that. One of the financial rules, which Villa Light Newcastle and City and Everton seem to have decided is all about protecting the elites. I don't necessarily agree with it, but there's a case you can make about that being accurate. Whether that was intentional or not, you can argue about that and that's a legitimate position. I think this idea, and I don't know how to put this anymore diplomatically. I don't understand why anyone thinks the media would want to stop Asden Villa's ascension. Asden Villa being good is a good story. There's lots and lots of Villa fans. They click on stuff that enables people to sell advertising or get views or get listeners or whatever it might be. No one's ever really explained to me why there are a lot of Villa fans who seem to have been convinced of this, but I don't understand why they think they would be being persecuted. Villa being good is not a bad thing. It's not even like there's a load of teams that hate Asden Villa, who are Liverpool, as far as I know, don't have a rivalry with Villa. Arsenal don't. United don't. I mean, I think quite a lot of people are quite well disposed towards Asden Villa to be perfectly honest, but it seems to be the fans generally or the certainly segment of fans who seem to have been convinced that this is happening. And I think to an extensor, where this is maybe playing on that, there was an attempt to play to the crowd a bit in that statement. That's what it felt like to me that that was getting vindication from his own fact. Well, I'm sticking up for Asden Villa here. I'm doing the right thing and to maybe improve, I don't know how popular or unpopular he is, but to for there you go to sort of improve his popularity amongst the fan base. Two things I was going to ask you is just probably to cover me on back as such. We had a similar thing with Jimmy Rodden, I don't know when Alan Chugory said something, and he had to come out with a public apology live on TV. Obviously, Jimmy Caragus come out this week and apologized. What sort of way would either them have to apologize and do we have to be careful what we say on and any sort of thing. And the other point is about Asden Villa is it's a shame that they can't, and in all the rules and you cast me the same as they've got such wealthy owners, they want to inject money into the team. Asden Villa just won the Europa League, and the whole team got dismantled and you could say, oh, they brought the Average A's down, which they have and all that, but that's the time they strengthen when you've won the Europa League is to keep your best players and add to that, not sell up to sort of balance the books. And I do also wonder whether it was Chris, just a bit of a shot across the Bows to even if Manchester United were considering it, don't even think about it. And actually, to maybe force it, force people to go, well, why would you leave Villa for Manchester United? I totally agree with that. But in the end, Villa, Villa, you know, I've got the look after themselves, but I think you're totally right. I mean, Manchester United at this moment in time, why would Unai Emery want, I mean, Unai Emery is a brilliant manager, is a brilliant coach all about detail. But with what he's built at Villa, and then, you know, if he looks up at Manchester United, why would he want to touch them at this moment in time? I mean, we have seen, it's not to say you couldn't achieve things there. Of course he could, but they've been through so many, so many managers, coaches, all of different profiles, the experienced ones have been there and wanted the young young up and coming ones. So why would, when he sees that that consistent, don't call it necessarily failure, from high profile guys within the game, with what he's achieved at Villa, why would he even think about going Chris United? Chris, how dare you, how dare you stop Manchester United's assent up English and European people. I taught you the town like that. But that's the thing why if Joel Glazer now makes Chris apologise, Chapters, come on. That is what, that is the thing that I'm really uncomfortable with about this. I think what Seweris did is inherently quite small time. It looks very thin-skinned. But also, you're saying what the note that so much of football, so much of football's value is created by the fact that there's all of this air around it, there's all this conversation. That is where that's the entertainment bit of the football entertainment complex. And what Seweris is basically saying is that if you criticise something in a certain way, you might have to issue quite a groveling and embarrassing apology. I don't particularly want to have to make a public apology for anything. There's probably quite a lot of things I should apologise for. But it's that's really not healthy. It feels very, I said to the producer who is also called Rory and is an Ashton Villa fan, that it feels a bit marinexcy and he made the point that marinex has other foibles that are not like this. And I think that's probably true. It's maybe not the right parallel. It feels very like touchy tech-billionaire throws a stop if I'm completely honest. And it's a really bad look. It's a really dangerous example to say. You can't control it. Where is it? You can't control what people say. Whereas I would go slightly the other way. I wonder whether they would, whether they're ever really considering legal action. But what they have actually managed to do is get the conversation out there and have started discussions about where Villa should be and how people talk about Villa. And because there is so much to the media that will go, well, yeah, but you would go there because it's Manchester City or you would go there because it's Liverpool. But I was also I'm saying in Villa fans won't thank me for saying this is if he's done this, I know. I'm getting sued too. If he's done such an amazing job with the budget he's had and had the sell his best layers from the last season and know they're up challenging again. You know, if you've got the budget as a man, you know, have compared to Arsenal Villa, what could he not achieve at that level? That's all I'm saying. But that's the point. But that's the point, isn't it? Is that people just go down that? I would imagine he's got a better budget in Villa than you know, it's it. No, it doesn't. He's got better players. He's got a lot of money for it. There are so many aspects of this because I think we would all agree that Manchester United cannot attract the top top players anymore. If you if you were a half decent player and you had Villa and Manchester United come in for this season, who would you go to? But you talked to Apple, you don't argue with the fact that I mean, Cara's central point was there is a food chain in football and that is absolutely right. And to be perfectly honest, nobody in England is at the top of that food chain because at the top of that food chain around Madrid. But we're suggesting that that food chain by keeping it as it is, we need to move on. But we are suggesting that the food chain never changes in football, which is wrong, because you could go back 25 years and you wouldn't have put Chelsea in Manchester City in the not that there was a big six back then. But you wouldn't have put Chelsea in Manchester City in that 25 years ago. There was a big six in 1992 and both Asdenville and Everton were in it. Yeah, I mean, this sort of shift. Yeah, no, that is right. And it does check. Maybe there is maybe a point that the media doesn't reflect how quickly that changes. But also, I mean, I'd argue that if you are a player of the very highest level and you get the choice next summer between Manchester and Asdenville, it would be a harder choice than it should, it would logically appear from the outside. Not least, as I think Manchester United would pay you more money. You would assume. You'd assume. Yeah. But also they have the whole like global brand thing behind them. It is, football changes very quickly and it also changes very slowly at the same time. With all due respect to Asdenville against Fuller Man Strictly, I suppose, there was Moss Watch TV on Saturday night. Serie A was back on terrestrial television with the Melanda. I'll be on BBC 2 and I play James Richardson was inside San Ciro took us all back to the 90s and Channel 4 evening James, how are you? Good evening, Mark. Were you aware? Are you must have been aware of all the nostalgia that then came forth on Saturday night, were you? Yeah, I saw. There's been so many kind of reactions. A lot of people getting in touch, a little bit misty-eyed about a show they remember back in the day which they enjoyed. I was out of the country at the time so I missed it typical. Yeah, no, I think that was a special time, the 90s in Syria, for any number of reasons. I remember Syria having a little reprise with a magnificent Channel 5 transmission as well. Oh my God, James, God! There are many factors behind the Polish public's love of Il Campionato Puyberlo. When you look at it now, I took it. Obviously, the stories I could tell about the Channel 5 show, but I won't. When you look at it now, it's very difficult sometimes, isn't it? It's dangerous to live too much in the past, but do you want it desperately to be like it was? But then, the league, I mean, not the broadcast coverage of it, necessarily, but the league. Could it be? I don't think those factors could come together. I mean, everything's cyclical, so who knows in 20, 30 years' time where we might all be, but the way that the Premier League has transformed the sport into a business, or has been at the forefront of that change, I think, has left Italy so far behind. Italy has other things to it. It's a magnificent backdrop to its football, and their philosophy football is different, and in many ways, enjoyable if you like a more considered game, but yeah, I don't think we can go back. Although I did on Saturday, it was very nostalgic. It was, it also, I mean, it looked and sounded great on Saturday, I mean, games like that, you do what you want to consume, don't you? Yeah, definitely. And I think you're absolutely right. The sound of the stadium, and people talk about this a lot when they go to Sancia. I haven't been back there for a game for a long time, but it was astonishing. Obviously, Derby is a different thing, and Derby, with a home side, performs so brilliantly, so much against the expectations, is going to be a particularly, particularly, a, a occasion. So it was a terrific thing to have that game, as you say, back on Trestrile TV after so long away. And who knows if that, that might not be something we see more of in the future. Do you think, James, do you think that, that Serie A trades on that kind of nostalgia enough? It's right to me that they, more than any other leave, they, they do have, and there's, there's lots of kind of, you know this better than I do, but there's lots, lots of forward thinking stuff in Italy that sometimes gets, gets through and sometimes gets bogged down in bureaucracy. But the one thing that I, it strikes me, they haven't, they've been a little bit reticent almost to lean into is that idea that there is a whole generation of people, largely because of you, but partly because of the players, who have a real fondness for, for Serie A, and for clubs within Serie A, and with my cynical capitalist hat on, I'd say that's something you can probably make money out of. Good, Shane. Well, so it's interesting, thank you very much for, there's a couple of things to that. In this country, it is true that there was an emotional connection made by the channel full program back in the 90s and, and a viewing public, a viewing public that let's not forget at the time was starved of English football, because at the very time that we started to just move to some little known operation called Sky, don't look for it, it's not there anymore. Because of that, we were kind of the only game in town and we had the opportunity to, to, to really win over some hearts and minds. When you talk about football heritage, it's funny because I think from an Italian perspective, that's what they look at the Premier League and think of us being, now you have the amazing players, you have the riches, you have the stadiums, but that was always the trading card back in the 90s of English football, you know, Serie A can consider itself the top league in the world, but they regarded England as the masters, the, the founders, the keepers of the real spirit of football almost. So while we may see, uh, Serie A has been full of historical things and heritage in this country, I think for the rest of the world, the English football still remains, you know, that the one that is, that tugs most at the kind of tradition, traditional heartstrings. You had a love, ah, wow, you tell me, did you find that you had a lovely freedom in doing that show? In the sense of, I mean, you got Attilia Lombardo to do the Lombardo, didn't you, I mean, which is, which is, but I do wonder by being a sort of English TV station covering Italian football, it gave you slightly more freedom because they weren't necessarily scrutinising it like they would their own media. So for example, when I did the NFL show over here, I found that me and Ocean Jason could take the Mick a lot more because a lot of the, a lot of the teams in the NFL would never see us, you know, taking the Mickie out of them. Yeah. No, that's definitely true. And they were simpler times as well. I mean, I started that, we, that showed started back in 1992 before any of us were born. So in those days, the whole notion of kind of press managers sitting in on your interviews and this kind of thing and dealing with sponsors and that just, it never really entered, entered into it. So you could grab a Lombardo by the side of the pitch and insist that he sway rhythmically for Brazilian, Brazilian times praise, or make the Ali wear a wig or get Mancini to do Monty Python sketches or any of the great fun that we did, and the fact that we were English was a huge part of that, the fact that we were from abroad. And I think later on as well towards the end of the 90s, when people saw the riches that awaited players and with the Premier League, there was, I think an extra cachet in doing an interview for English television just to get your name noticed just a bit. Oh, do you think that was a thing? You think they'd worked out, actually, if I'd go on, go on disaster, then people would be like, "Hanon, does that mean I think Chris will get upset at this?" Stouting definitely wasn't as ridder as then as it is now, Chris might. He normally, if we dare to suggest that things have changed and football, he gets very angry. But that makes sense. Like, you kind of, yeah, if you're a Andreas Zelensi, you might want to go on TV and maybe advertise your wares to an English audience. They might not influence my buy you. Zelensi, okay, that wasn't my fault, I was nothing to do with Zelensi move. However, I think the internet has been the big change in, I'm not a scout, nor involved in scouting, thank goodness, but I suspect that the wealth, the proliferation of easily accessible footage of players has made a sea change in the way that people get noticed and get picked up on. And certainly when we were doing Channel 4, I mean, we were doing highlights. We had a highlight show which regularly transmitted games that actually happened six days before. In the internet age, that would be completely impossible. And I wonder whether Chris, as a footballer at the time and watching it as I know you did, whether it made. Transworlds? Was it Transworlds sport before? The Was Transworlds sport. Yeah. I mean, so it was. I mean, yeah. Yeah. And Blitz. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I don't know, did it make you consider wanting to play in Serie A more because that was how you were consuming it? I think so. I mean, I remember the. I mean, everybody was fascinated with Gaza, weren't they? You did a bit. With Gaza, didn't you? And that's you, and went to visit him, his house and the hills. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean. And it's like. It was the. It was the best league out there in the '90s. That's how it was considered. So actually, to follow the show, as I did, as most players, I think we enjoyed a Saturday mornings talking into that, and then you'd see, you know, the quality teams which they had, and there was, you know, the sort of dark arts of the Italian defending as well. It was. Yeah. You know, it was. It was a brilliant. I just wonder for you, James, it's. Mm-hmm. So, when you started, did you realise the sort of impact which it had back home? And the. You know, I don't know what the viewing figures were. But. So the viewing figure. Mm-hmm. As I say, the fact that what had just become the Premier League, but first a vision football in England had just disappeared off Trestra or TV, and that made a huge difference. Early games, I think the first season they get maybe 2 million on a Sunday, which seems crazy now. Mm-hmm. The biggest audience we got on the show was actually for. I don't know if you recall that Italy were having some problems getting to a World Cup. They were different times. And they could play off against Russia. So we went to Moscow, and on a Wednesday afternoon, we got 5.5 million people tuning in for that. It was extraordinary. But Russia again, certainly, on a Wednesday afternoon. Wow. It happened. Wow. Yeah, it was. It was. famously, it was not the 66 World Cup final, the wedding of Charles and Diana and then Russian, basically, the World Cup qualifying. That's right. That's right. That's right. It was some. Yeah. What an afternoon that was. But was I aware of the success? No. I could. Because, yeah, I was out there. And I didn't anticipate. Yeah, I thought. This was going to be huge. Gazzle was clearly huge. People being able to see Gazzle play again. Huge. But I didn't anticipate it being a success. Or, you know, me continuing on the show beyond the first three months or something, particularly. So until I remember, the first time I came back to England in that. Palmer played at Wembley in the Cup, when it's Cup, at the end of that first season. And I went along to the game and people kind of recognized me outside the stadium, which was. That was the kind of moment I rose. Oh. So. Wow. Was that because you were playing the theme tune on a boom box on your shoulder? But James, you know, I think it's. It would suggest that there is. There is an audience for that now. And I know that, you know, the leader are on, basically, every streaming service now. I don't know. You can watch the leader constantly, but never. And then, obviously, TNT have rights to various leads. Steve got a bit of German football. Yeah. Do you not think it sort of suggests that paywalling off those leads, given the commercial and cultural might of the Premier League, is actually quite short-sighted. If you want to build an audience, you just need to get it in front of people. I think you're 100% right. I was talking with people from Syria about this on Saturday. It's really fragmented in the market as everybody knows. Syria, for example, is on, I think, four different broadcasters, which BBC Alaba or BBC Two on Saturday, is one of them now. And it's really confusing. And I don't think that being behind. The other ones are all pay-paper-view. So that doesn't help anyone. And it being occasioned on BBC is a really nice treat. And who knows? I mean, they were really taken about by the level of excitement about the game and the level of interest, you know, the viewing figures and stuff. They're really delighted about it. So I really hope that that's something that they take on board. They have, in the last three years, made a real sea change in terms of the way they market themselves. You were talking about that. Do they make enough of all their tradition on that? They are now doing that all in-house as opposed to doing it for an agency. It's a very dull, but about three or four years ago, they realised that we really need to do something about this. We need to do something to maximum. the advantages we have as Syria, and I think we'll see the fruits of that soon. And, you know, if I can be anything to do that, I'll be delighted. Well, do you know, you just, I thought, after I watched the game the other night in the office, I thought I'd just look at the league table. The league table, very early tables, fantastic. Yeah, lights here are top with 28, but in to have 25, Roma 24, Como 23, Milan 21, I know we're still early in the season, the only 2010 games. That's a heck of a top five. You've a seventh, and Napoli, a eighth. So, just in numbers, lats who were playing in in front of empty stadiums, the fans hate the owner and they're on strike. There's always stuff going on in Syria. So, yeah, yeah. So you look at anything, well, that's good. And as James says, BBC Alba have one game a week. I think a deal was done because there were numerous Scottish players who were playing out in Syria at the moment. So, is it game a week on BBC Alba or iPlayer? But there is something there, James, isn't there? Oh, I think so. When you look at leagues like Liga, where it's a bit of a procession for the title and the Bundesliga as well, and in Spain, you can be reasonably clear on which one, it's going to be one of two teams. City Al has had multiple different teams winning the title like four in the last six, seven years. But yeah, and there's every chance that Laxia could make that five this season, because despite the fact that the fans are boycotting their home ground. But turning up in incredible numbers to away games, 10,000 a week ago to their away game in Sassuola, which they're one, six, two. So, I think they're a really interesting story with Gatuzo having a bit of a reno, reno songs coming. It's definitely that. After he Italy problems. Yeah, I think it's fabulous. There's loads of goals way more than in the Premier League. Yeah, that's what I was going to say, James, I was looking because I'm covering Roma tomorrow in Ireland. I'm actually mine in United Roma and I've watched the last, I don't know, half a dozen games in Roma. They're scoring goals for funerately and being in European competition. And we look back maybe a two-year year when you done the famous program you did was it was one Nell Eccle, the famous defender's know. But it actually, for me, it's better to have goals entertainment. That's the business we're in. So, there has to be a niche to support for the Italian League as well. Yeah, the rumor of a fabulous 12 different goals scored so far and five goals at the weekend. Loads of entertaining teams right now. Is it a good game for a month? United tomorrow night? That's from Trying to get our teams. I mean, I'm trying to get James to do your punditry for you. Yeah. I think it's James. That game set in motion. A whole chain of really humiliating European results for Roma. And I was talking with a friend of yours, James Hongcastle earlier on about this because that 2007, what's it called a final in the Champions League between the two sides, Mark, I'm sure you remember. Yeah. Well, when Roma went to Old Trafford with Spaletti and Totty as the fourth nine and 7-1 was the goal. 7-1 was the goal. So, I think the goal's going to happen. The goal's going to happen. It's goal scored and unbelievable goal. My character is only enough. I've got two. Christian Ronaldo got two. Who else got? Well, anyway, let's not go through all the many. United goals scored. But that game was, I think it's a bruise that lives on in Jalorossi Hart. So, for the current side who are doing so well to go to Old Trafford tomorrow, I think represent a real chance to put the boot for me on the other foot. And Gasparini, the manager, let's not forget when he was in his previous Joe Attle and had pretty big wins with that side coming to Premier League stadium. So, I think Roma looked good value for tomorrow. Yeah. James, thank you very much. Coming on. Hopefully, there's more to come. James Rich has with us on the Monday night club. What are you smirking at, Rory? I just think that was kind of my favourite 27 minutes of radio ever. I mean, I never he mentioned it there. I am surprised. I actually got to work again after doing the Italian football. I remember that show very well. I do not remember you doing it. People were fantastic, but it was tricky at times, yes. And throughout the whole time, I wasn't James Rich as in which was a massive problem when presenting Italian football. With a BBC sounds out, get access to the biggest sporting moments as they happen on five sports extra, sports extra two and sports extra three. Oh, that's wrong. Champions in Paris for the first time. Scroll through the live radio dial and put yourself at the heart of the action. This is the Monday night club with Mark Chapman on the football daily podcast. So it's me about why Bartham Bruggen is so good at Brighton? Well, he's on the back of a brilliant performance at the weekend. It's worth talking about. That's why I thought I'd put it in the show. Yeah, we are. No, I mean, it's again. It's another unbelievable bit of recruitment, I think, from Brighton. People didn't know much about him before he joined the club. And again, he's fantastic. He had a brilliant game at the weekend. I covered that game as well. I watched every minute of that game. And he was, he was unbeatable, some fantastic saves. And again, the biggest thing, the biggest compliment you give any goalkeepers is you feel comfortable when he's playing behind you. There's no panic. He plays that way. Makes big saves when called upon. He's very comfortable with a ball, his feet, all the sort of modern day sort of terminology for a top goalkeeper. And you know, he takes all the boxes. When you are looking at safe percentage for a goalkeeper, what is a good safe percentage? Because his is up at 78.1%, which is the second highest at the moment in the Premier League. Who's the highest? I don't know actually. I've not done it in front of me. No, I haven't. But I'll save percentages. I mean, that's a funny old stat, though, isn't it? You've had all the stats are funny. XG and all that's nonsense. So is it more expensive goals? Go on, go on. Is it different for goalkeepers? Is that safe thing? Because, you know, there are every shot is different. And there's a. I just don't understand you gauge that. And assists and all this stuff. People get bogged down and like, I'm just, I'm not having it, and I'm going to sound like a dinosaur. The keeper at the weekend, did you see his assists for the goal? Noone actually declared it at the back post. Didn't know anything about him. Hit him in the ankle, went back to Iara and he scores. And he gets an assist for that. He knows nothing about it. Their keeper. So what have you got to say for that? I know when I talk about goalkeepers, no, but I'm just saying like, he can get bogged down. So do you not look at safe percentages? Not really, no. So what would you look at as a stat? Just look with my eyes and see if he's a good goalkeeper, no? Right. You wouldn't look at numbers at all. Well, I mean, there's probably goals against all the things that break and would do when they're scouting for a goalkeeper. Yeah, but I still think you've got to go and watch some training and watch them play and make your own main top and his temperament and how he plays in that position because, you know, I think that's key as well. But I know a lot of the clubs and break and being one of them, it's a lot to do with stats and data and stuff. But I'm going to say like a dinosaur. I would like to go into play and play. What would say, though, just with that show, would it be different, though, with the, you know, you mentioned he's comfortable with the ball at his feet, the same thing. I don't quite understand a bit like you because, you know, every shot there's different. Some saves a bet and others, you know, all sorts of different angles. You know, I suppose there are seasons where you can just be unlucky in goal and there's, there's a, you know, a better quality of finishing. But the stuff with the feet, I mean, that's where sort of, you know, how good he is, how comfortable he is. Well, again, that's what you can, but you can, you can, you can look at maybe something a bit more or take something. Yeah, but again, that comes down to the team setup with Brydon. So if he gets a ball back at his feet and these players aren't shown for the ball, he's going to end up launching up the pitch and probably giving it away. But if Fabian Herschler is teaching his center half to drop and his full backs and his two sixes to drop and he received the ball, he's going to have a lot more options. So he's past percent, he's going to be a lot higher. So again, it's about how the team set up and how they want to play. And I think that's how they do play. And he's got lots of options with the ball of his feet. So I don't know what the status on passing their chapters, but he'll probably have a, have a strong sort of passing percent, a positive one because of how the team play. He has a 100% sweeping accuracy. What does that mean? I'm assuming it means when. Clean up the dressing room after. Yeah. I think Suzuki, if I can up rubbish the other day off the pitch, maybe he's sweeping the dressing room after the game. I'm assuming it's sweeping. That's people like Rory who make stuff up like that. Yeah, fair point. Fair point. I don't know what sweeping accuracy means. I think that with gold, data and goldkeepers is, is difficult, does it? Like Chris at Chris as much as he's been characteristically like defensive about it and new. He's been very crisp about it. I think it, there's a, you are dependent for the, for the data on goldkeepers on, on lots of other factors that in a way that's not necessarily quite true of, of the outfield positions. I think with save percentage in terms of recruitment, it's probably just a bit of a guide to say, look, you, there are ways of working out whether a goldkeeper has conceded as many dolls as you would expect from the chances they have faced. And if the goldkeeper has conceded fewer dolls than the numbers suggest, then maybe that "stee" is you that. that goalkeeper's having quite a good season, but I think a lot of people are better at finishing than others. Yeah, but as you take, yeah, absolutely, but as you take the average over the course of a season, you get a picture to your face in a rich variety of strikers, Chris. So yeah, but it is, it is complicated. And I don't, but I think with all this stuff, it's all, it's all just a way of doing due diligence of just saying like, is there a, is there something that you need to, to be, be wary of is the eye misleading, other numbers misleading, you have to check everything with your eyes as well? The thing with the broadon, I think, is that he strikes me and I'll bow to Shade completely on this, not Chris, just Shade, that he seems to really improve. I think there was a stage when the broadon looked a little bit less secure a couple of years ago, and he seems to have really grown in that position. Well, Gina, I mean, without contradicting everybody here, his safe percentage of two years ago was 60%. His safe percentage this season is just over 78%. That's, I mean, that's just higher chapters, whichever way he's like that. It's nearly 20%. I don't, I don't want to doubt on you with Matt. Um, he, he conceded more goals than the expected goals he was meant to have conceded two years ago. And now he's way ahead of that. So, so actually a little bit of both, where he's saying a couple of seasons ago, he may have struggled. The numbers were back that up. Hmm. Well, he's, he's still only 24. So a couple of years ago, I mean, doing the maths again, he's only 22. Yeah, but again. So again, so that's a stand. He's definitely, this is the three years ago. He was 21. This has been a very technical issue. If you want to go back four years, he was 20 Chris, but a far back to wanting all this. But what I'm trying to say is, naturally, as a goalkeeper, I suppose, any player, you're going to improve, get better, you know, get coach better, improve, you know, uh, the Premier League, whatever international's playing for, for his country as well. So he's going to improve in all fronts, like, and that's, that's what he's done. There was one save you made from Mercedes Nunez on, on Saturday, which was, I mean, even somebody who hasn't been a goalkeeper looked, looked sensational. It was a great save, but it wasn't sensational. I think all the saves he made of the weekend were saves that I would expect the goalkeeper has caliber to make. To what, even that one from noon? I think the one from noon is the best part about that was he got it away from danger. He got it out of the dangers one, and, and you see a lot of goalkeepers patting it down back into the danger zone. The biggest and most important thing was that he got a strong arm to get it away from on common strikers. And that was a big part of that save, but it was still a save that expecting to me. Let's talk about a couple of teams towards the bottom of the Premier League, then, uh, Sunderland bottom after losing at Coventry. Chris, are you worried for them? Um, yeah, I, yeah, I am, but I'm worried for Sunderland. I think European football certainly doesn't, doesn't help. I think after every time they've got, they've got one point. I don't really play three games in Europe, but one point from when they've come back after a European game. Okay. Can I, can I, can I throw something in there on that? Because I do think, I do think that's being mentioned a lot at the moment, and I don't, at this stage, I think that's particularly fair, because the first game after Europe, they were at Manchester City. But that's fair. Right. And I'm probably scored a hat trick in the game as good as they got. The second game after their European game, they went to Bournemouth and were down to 10 after 15 minutes. So I'm not quite sure what you can do there, because Kevin Dancer got sent off. And then the third game after Europe was played in a gale, that that counts. Same for both teams. Yeah. I think you've given a fair, a very fair defensive. Well, if, if we're looking at it plainly, and you look at their defensive record last season, I think only three teams in the Premier League conceded less goals than them. And they would conceded just over a goal again. Last season, this big loss in the season. Yeah. But this season, they are conceding an alarming rate, nearly two and a half goals a game. And that is, that that's always going to be troublesome, especially when you are not free scoring. They weren't last season. You mentioned Brobby. You got that hat trick at Manchester City. I wonder whether we praised Sunderland so much last season for their recruitment. And it was a whole new squad, which came in. They performed incredibly well. Got sevens, place finish. They didn't do a lot of business over the summer, maybe thought that they would have enough. I wonder whether there is a regret that they could and should have freshen things up a little bit more. I mean, Mucku, Alex, you come out last week a week before about saying there's an arrogance to them or whatever. You know, is that a is that the modern day thing? No, Martinez come out and Bruno's come out. There's different players come out, hammering their clubs, but I think if you're in downright in the in the base of the Premier League, it's, it's got to be all together, no matter what. And the other thing you need to keep is 11 players on the pitch, you mentioned, Alderhead, the weekend, get sent off, done so a couple of weeks ago. That's not going to help. And obviously confidence is in all time alone. Again, they've got it played. No, they've got it played again on Thursday night. As you say, Chris, it's, it's an absolute, they overachieved last season. There's no doubt about I don't think that the started season would have took stand in the Premier League. They overachieved. And I don't think we were, we were given too much praise. We were given them praise and rightly so, because of how well they did last season. But I don't think the squad was set up for, for you know, Premier League and European football. So again, could they have strengthened more in the summer? The thing on the overachievement last season, Rory is, and I'm coming to you on this, because again, it comes back to quite a lot of data. When you look at quite a lot of their stats from last season, they were in the bottom four or five for quite a lot of, of differing numbers. So I'm not saying, I wouldn't, you don't want to interpret that as, well, they've got a way with it a bit last season. But you would probably look at it more fine margins. And the margins went their way last season. Yeah, I was going to say, I think that's exactly the way that I think a lot of Sunderland fans took it, that if there was a point where you had to rely on the bounce of the ball a little bit, the rubber, the green, it kind of fell, stuff kind of fell for Sunderland. The shots that might have hit the barn. You did, that's. No, Chris, that is a fact. What are these metrics, then, where they were? So they finished seven. They're XG difference. They're actually difference between XG that they could have scored and XG defended, was the third lowest in the division. And they were ahead of only two clubs, Wolves and Burnley. Which means, they didn't create that many chances and they conceded quite a lot of chances. But what was their success built on? It was mentioned, their defensive record last season was incredible. It was, and that, again, depends on players playing really, really well, maybe even playing just a little bit above themselves, being in really good form, the confidence coming, momentum coming. It also involves storing goals from relatively few chances. So that could be, and you don't really know until after the event to be fair. So there's a degree of steticism is warranted. That could be that you have found a striker who regularly outperforms their XG, just they're amazing. Or it could be that your striker, who's pretty good, but not amazing, is just in a really good vein of form. And both of those things are entirely possible. And I think that is true. I don't think in Sunderland, I mean, they had a, they started well and they just had a bit of a dip and their season looked like it was going to not peter out, but it's going to end in a really predictable 12-place finish, staying up in their first season, which no one, no one had expected. And that in itself would have been a massive triumph. But then they kind of came again towards the end of the season and ended up finishing seventh. They got into Europe on the last day, which was way ahead of what anybody had anticipated for them. And the test was always, can you, is that sustainable? I'm still quite bullish on Sunderland's. I think they're quite a good team. Ballad, I think Shay's right, is a bit miss, probably at the weekend. I think the issue they've got is that not only is Mark right about, they've lost in kind of slightly weird, like weird or forgivable circumstances after European games. They've also played city, they've played Arsenal, they've played Brighton, they've had a relatively difficult start to the season. But the problem is that that becomes a factor in itself because you're under pressure. So suddenly the team is playing with anxiety because you've not got the points on the board. And I think that more than anything might be what kind of divs Sunderland pause for thought and maybe a difficult season ahead is that because they've had that bad start for totally understandable reasons, that creates a cycle that's difficult to escape. I mean, do you think he's under pressure, Rory, because obviously they've got they've got Thursday, got Zagreb and Thursday, they've got Chelsea next on Sunday. Then there's international break. I think there's a lot of managers fearing this international break next week because debris for some mad reason in the summer said supposedly reports in some media outlets that he was under pressure then. So taken on the back of that, he must be under pressure now. Based on his performance, his over the course of his time at Sunderland, there is no way he should be under pressure. Like if all of that overachievement in getting Sunderland to the Premier League and then getting them to seventh in the Premier League, that should buy you more than a couple of bad months. But then yeah, it's when it's when results haven't been going for you and clubs who've invested heavily as Sunderland did last year in being in the Premier League start to get twitchy that that just like rash decisions are made. So I think they've said that they're doing a that there's no pressure on him at the moment that he's you know, he's still there dying or whatever. But he'll know as we all do that that's not letting him in mortal state of affairs. I'll come a point where if he doesn't if he doesn't get a win then then it will start to be difficult for the club not to think maybe we need to change something. Well, well, it's also quite interesting in their fixtures, and Rory's mentioned it, Chris, is actually, you go through their fixtures and you think, and we've made this point on the show before, that going to a newly promoted side, going away to a newly promoted side on the opening day of the season is probably more difficult than you would think, and everybody's pumps, have they lost their hip switch on the opening day of the season? Last minute, wasn't it? Yeah, but aside from that, every game that they've played, the only one that you could argue, maybe, should they have done better? Would there have been more expectation on them, bearing in mind, they're establishing the Premier League and Coventry were promoted, would be the one on Saturday, I'm looking at the rest of their fixtures, they beat Fulham at home, they drew at Brentford, they were beaten at home by Arsenal, they lost their way at City, they were beaten at home by Brighton, down to 10, they lost at Bournemouth, they drew at home to Leeds, and now they've won. In a gale. Yeah, it was a gale, it was a bare-minded Bournemouth, a suddenly the Premier League's form team. Yeah, so actually, when you go through all of their fixtures, just that last one on Saturday, maybe there was more expectation on them than there. Yeah, and were they not unlucky with a couple of goals, they're deflectional, but I mean, yeah, but I mean. Yeah, that was just drawing in a gale count, a good point, so yeah, I mean, so the weekend losing to Coventry is one where I think Sunderland fans, that would have been a bit of an eye-opener, you know, and it's not going to get any easier with Chelsea on the horizon, but I don't, I'm a bit like Rory, I just think they'll be fine, but that may be based on that thought process, may just be based on last season and how. I mean, just, you know, that game with Arsenal last season, I thought they were absolutely amazing. They've missed Brobby for a period which I think has been a big loss. I think, you know, and the nature of the Premier League, you look at Coventry, three wins from nine games, they've lost the other six, you know, it's, you know, I think Sunderland will real teams in, you know, I've just got a feeling they'll work the way up the table and there shouldn't be any panic, I think the manager proved himself last season. What was. The problem they've dropped chapters, and I haven't read the running order, so I don't know what the next team we're talking about is, but I would say that there isn't a bad team in the lead to this season, and that's a real issue for someone like for a team like Sunderland isn't, they're not the only one, but for us you can make the same case for even Palace, which I think is the bottom three, that although, certainly Sunderland and Forrest have looked perfectly fine at certain points this season, and Forrest Sunderland was a really, really good. But that is the next discussion as Forrest, but why have you decided to come tonight having paid no attention to what's on the show? I paid attention to most of it, I just didn't quite get to the bottom of the running order. It's getting a bit comfortable in this period, really. I thought we were going to have Roy's P45 for the last 12 minutes, but we've got to make some Forrest, but the issue is that you can look at the table and make it in Bournemouth were 18th, I think on October the 6th, and now they're 7th. Hall haven't won since August, but it's still 11th. Leads at one point look really, really kind of positive, and they would look like they might be pushing for Europe, and then they're 12. It's which, coventry, they're winning games, they're producing points. I think it feels like it might be quite a high points total to keep you safe, and that puts teams like Sunderland and Forrest who would both expect to stay up, and I think most of us probably think we'll stay up, it makes it a little bit dizier for them. So not even Forrest then, all of a glass there after the weekend said it's now time not to make compromises, it's now time to show a clear way and everybody has to follow. And if they don't want to follow, then I guess then the 6th manager will come in. Who do you think that aimed at Chris? Samuel is aimed at the players, clearly he's, it's frustration, I think with the whole XG thing which Royal Royal probably comment on, they haven't, they have struggled to take the chances, and that's been their biggest downfall, I think even at the weekend against Brentford, their opportunities before Brentford took the lead, and he's at the stage where I think he's tried, well it's the carrot and the stick isn't, I think he's tried to dangle the carrot and they're not carrot munchers, they're not even Forrest players. So he's gone for the old stick routine and sort of said well if you need to listen, if not then you'll have to get somebody else in. But I mean apart from, I'm trying to move on somehow, where is he compromised? Well that's the fact I don't get, well you know he's, they're obviously, you know he talked about, I think he tried to cut, I think with what he said in his sort of rant after the game, he tried to cut the players a bit of slack and sort of give them a bit more freedom and responsibility, but the fact they're not sticking to their roles within the team and what he wants to see, that is a problem, hence why it's going to be, you know his way. And if things don't improve, you know saying well, I mean there's been a merry go round of managers at Nottingham Forrest, you know however many managers have gone through in the last season or so as a four last season in total. So I mean, you know the owner isn't frightened of change and I think he would have expected a lot from Oliver Glasner with what he achieved and built at Crystal Palace and wanted to see a similar story emerging at Forrest, but you know the fact of the matter is, is they aren't taking the chances and that has been their biggest problem, you know spent 50 million on Liam Delap, I think you mentioned the other week that that Palace game, I mean the amount of chances they had in the Palace game, you know they lost one little at home to Arsenal tight game, Ipswich again, missed chances, ended up drawing and same at the weekend, it's the same old story. But at Bremford and we showed the chances on Sassay and talk about it, I know Delap show will be the focal point and we've touched on this before, but it's a team thing, it wasn't just Delap that had chances at Bremford, several of them had chances, it's not just on him, although he is their 50 million pound striker. Yeah, I mean he's still relatively young as well and we struggle the Chelsea and think as a big club and a lot, but he needs to be given the chances, I think he's still working the channels, he's still you know doing his best, but he has to be given the opportunities or he has to be given the chances by the… He does appear to be getting chances every game. Yeah, that's fair, but I mean people like Gibbs White and stuff have to step up as well, he's the captain, he's the leader of that team, he's the agent and off perhaps, you know that they've, when you look at the last number of games Chris mentioned, the biggest thing it jumps off any, that we're all, that's based on it is the goals, there's a serious lack of goals in the last half a dozen games, whatever it is and that's a big concern. And it's interesting that he's come out so soon in his forest career, the manager and sort of opened up. So he must be getting some messages from above that he's under pressure and we know Marron Accus, he's not shy of getting rid of managers, you know, but I think again, you know the job he done at Crystal Palace, you know be mad to do, to get rid of over-classener, I think he knows he's a hero in the pitch, he knows he's a hero in the Premier League and I think it's only a matter of time before he gets it right. So the stats, Rory, before you come in, I feel safer, just put it, put it in your direction. Six goals all season, their XG is 14.34, which is the fifth highest in the league, their chance conversion rate is 2.7%, which is the worst, it's not very much, no. And they're defensive stats, I think they're okay, they're not, you know, they're conceding more than they should be given the chances there to say, yeah, there is an issue there and that, do you know, I think actually that's one of those where where XG is particularly useful, does what that tells you is that Forrest generally, and I agree completely with Chris that it's, it's not just, you can't be allowed, it's leaned, it's leaned, it's the entire team, he's not the only one who's having chances, but they are not, there is clearly a lack of finishing quality, either temporary or permanent in that Forrest side. I thought Glasner's quotes were, there was a little bit of defiance in them that made me think he's almost staring Maranacus down, he, Glasner will know that getting him was a bit of a two for Forrest, does he was, at one point, you know, the point's last season where he was being linked with Manchester United, and obviously I don't want to stop nothing in Forrest ascension up English and European football, but I would say that United are a bit of club than Forrest, they've got one more European cup, I think, I think, Glasner will know that that maybe gives him a little bit of power, I also don't think Maranacus wants to change the manager constantly, so I wonder whether he's kind of like a reverse manifesting that Glasner's sort of saying, look, what, what normally happens in this situation is that I go and get another job in the Bundesliga and you get another guy in but the problem isn't solved, and he was quite arrogant, wasn't he? He was saying, you can get a job. Yeah, but you know what, I think Glasner from what I know of, I don't know him personally, but from what I know of him, I think he's one of those managers who's got a relatively unusual ability to keep it in perspective, you know, he's been through a lot in his life as Oliver Glasner. And I get the impression that he said before he goes home and he switches his phone off. He's not pretending that he's kind of staying up watching third division games through Ecuadorian television like me. He's not alive, you know, he's not stuff to do. And I think it was, it was him saying, look, you can sack me and that's what happens, that's fine. I'll go get another job. I'll continue with my life, you'll crack on with yours. But he doesn't quite healthy that Chris, isn't it? Yeah, that's what, yeah, he doesn't solve, but he's also saying he doesn't solve the underlying problem, which is true. Yes, yes, healthy turning your phone off. I don't, I don't often do it, but yeah, maybe I should start. I bet Andross does. Yeah, I mean, Neil, the other question mark would be player-powered, not even for us, because they've gone through so many managers in the last whatever year, 18 months. Have they got too much of a say when it comes to that? I think that's what he was saying. That's what he was saying, wasn't it players and the owner's son and stuff? Is that, is that, is that, well Sean, Sean died. He should form a forest monument. Yeah, after Glazer's interview said, he posted this on social media, forest is still finding the girls hard to come by. I had it, along with my staff, we scored, but nowhere near what the metrics were telling us. So not enough to stay in our job. We had 35 efforts at goal against walls and it finished Neil Neil and culminated in myself and staff being sacks. I hope Oliver has given more time in the fans stay with him and the players stand up and be counted. That's what I mean, like, because if you will free up many managers, there's something not right behind the scenes in my opinion. And maybe that's what Sean was sort of hinting at as well. That's it. Next episode of the football daily pod will feature reaction to Tuesday's Champions League ties, including Barcelona, Villa and Manchester United I'm Steve Bracknell, assistant manager of Sunday League Power Houses, the Royal Oak FC, and I'm back in changing room at Royal Oak for a new season of Games Gone, the podcast that takes you back to the grassroots of the game. We call it Paul Samson and Bob the book, and this season we're aiming for promotion to division D of the Sheffield Sunday Imperial League. Games Gone, the Steve Bracknell podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Sometimes we all need an extra help in hand, especially with the tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is an AI for just that. 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