MNC: No smiles for the cameras at Manchester United

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So New York, Thailand, and Norfolk. And that is Clammer, Chris. Well, it is. I mean, a lot of the big hitters in Covid moved up to Norfolk and they're still here. So, yeah, it's an attractive part of the world. Without breaching anybody's privacy, who were some of those big hitters? Well, we can't breach their privacy. But we're talking big hitters, are we? Well, it depends how big you want to go, but sizable. No, I don't think there's any Hollywood stars. And of course, you're doing tonight show on a high from beating a dog in your predictions. Not a genuine high, Adam. I mean, that will be a story of this. If he was genuinely high tonight, but on a high from beating a dog in your predictions this week. Yeah, but I could be Michael Carrick. I think Michael Carrick and Manchester United would, you know, would take any win. A win to win. Did you, did you comfortably beat the dog or was it a close close, you don't know, do you? You never checked it. I'm very much doubted. You don't know, do you? No, I don't know. I'm very much doubted though. You can, yeah, every, do you know who you're taking on next week in your predictions? One of your horses, I don't know. No, I don't know, but I needed, I think the dog was called waffle. I needed waffle the dog, just to get a bit of confidence back. So, Andrews, Adam and Chris are with us. Andrews, how many years have you been on the Monday night club? What? Three, maybe two. Yeah, I'd say three or four years. Yeah. How many, how many times do you reckon we've talked about the shambollot in nature in Manchester United in just those three? Just those three or four years? Yeah. I mean, you're probably into double figures, aren't you on Manchester United conversations at the very least? At least, and it doesn't seem like it's going to change any time soon, does it? It really doesn't. And actually, I mean, there is, there is a serious point to this, Adam, which is a myself and the producer talking this morning. And our conversation was, how can, how can you have a different discussion about Manchester United? And I'm, and by the end of it, and we did properly think about it, by the end of it, I'm not sure it's possible. Is it, we have, we have a little something a bit later on that is maybe a bit different about sports documentaries, because they've got the cameras in. So, we'll look at the effect that the cameras will have. But in the main, we, it's groundhog day. I mean, I'm struggling at the moment. Maybe Coventry aside, it's which aside, to sort of think of a team in the league where I think they would go into the game and you would, you presume they would win. I'm really struggling at the moment to come up with, you know, I'm looking at their fixtures on paper and, you know, said this morning that they've had their easy games, you know, the, the games on paper that you would expect Manchester United to win. They have had them, which 12 games into the season. And they still have to play teams like Liverpool, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Arsenal. I think there is a real chance this gets worse before it gets better, which is a, a crazy thing to say about a team worth that much that has won so few games. And interestingly, Andrews, following on from that, one of the discussions I was having with someone this morning was he said to me, they should be doing better than they are. And I said, do you really think so when you, like genuinely though, Andrews, when you look at the teams who are above them in the Premier League and the style of football that those teams are playing and, and the players that they've got and energy and this, that's in the other. I'm, I'm not sure you would say that many teams above them are worse. Would you? Listen, I don't think there are champions league team at the moment, but I think it, I think it's highly disrespectful to say they aren't better than where they at the moment, 16th. Yeah. I think they're better than 16th. The, the squad that built the, the money that's spent in the summer, the personnel that brought in in the summer. I actually thought they did some half decent businesses in the summer. So I think that they're a lot better than 16th. Like I said, I think Andrews, right. Andrews, right. But I'll go through the table. Are they better, are they better than City? No. Arsenal? No. Brighton? No. Liverpool? No. Chelsea? No. Brentford? Should they be? Yes. No, are they? At the moment, no. At the moment, no. Right. Leeds? No. Newcastle? No. Villa? No. Whole? No. I think they're very effective at the moment. Everton? No. Ipswich. Yes. I'd say from there on, I think they're better than those teams. So, probably not. Spurs are paid really well. Bournemouth? We've just been in them three now. Yes. I think that, I think you look at their team on the paper, they're better than those teams now that are going to come. Bournemouth? Spurs? No. Full of them. Yes. Okay. So there's not many, is there? No, there isn't. But I think there's, there's a huge potential for that team with the players they have. That's what I'm trying to say. Yes, at the moment, they're playing like a team that's in 14, 15, 16th. But the potential that team had, there shouldn't be nowhere near. Minimum top half, they should be, which is my point. No, Christian, you don't look, you don't look in a group. No, I'm with Mark on this. I think the issue that Manchester United have is, I don't know whether you had an opinion there, Mark, actually, whether that was a question. I've made a question. There's a question. There's a loaded question. But, but, but we're judging, we are judging Manchester United and Michael Carrick on what he achieved last season, aren't we? Not anymore. Of course, we're comparing it to last season. And, and, you know, he, he worked wonders. And they were, you know, taking over. It took over a real mess, didn't he? From, from, from Ruben Ambrim. And went on this incredible run. I think they only lost two games on something like 12, that have 17, which was, which was amazing. Beat Manchester City early on and Arsenal early on. And then they, you know, built up momentum, confidence, belief, were better in, you know, both boxes than they were under Ambrim. So, in, in many respects, I understand what the criticism is. The teams that they've played, as Adam has said, two wins out of what 12 now. The teams which have beaten them and beaten, beaten them comprehensively, I mean, Como, in the Champions League, and then at the weekend and just going back to Ips, which one of the games they did win, Ips, which for an hour were better than Manchester United on, you know, on that particular day. So, it's, you know, I think the question that Jason Wilcox and Barado would have been asking each other is, you know, are we going to get any better under Michael Carrick if he stays on? And that's hard, as hard to say, that they are based on what we have seen this season. And that doesn't mean it's all Michael Carrick's fault, of course. But, you know, I was surprised today, I'm surprised right now that he is still in a job based on performances this season. Chris, do you think the fans reaction after the game might have pulled him a week or so? I don't, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I mean, it was, as has been, I think many people have said already, that was very unusual. What happened? I can't, I was trying to wreck my brains. Some of the managers I've got sacked over the years or whatever, you know, just thinking, thinking of, thinking of occasions like that, where, you know, a manager who's under the pump was applauded off and the players were booed, I can't think of another one. Maybe Adam or yourself or Mark, you know, can think of of another situation like that. I don't necessarily think that has bought him time as such because you would like to think, I'm not saying this is the case, but you would like to think the decision makers would have to see through that and look what is going on on the pitch and also within the dressing room. When I say that, it's clearly not a happy dressing room and a harmonious dressing room. Do you think Adam, the full-time reaction will have made them pause and think? No, I don't actually. I actually think that full-time reaction, I'm not sure it was that the fans were saying we want Michael Carrick to stay. I think it was simply, you know, we want the players to know that we don't hold him sort of solely responsible for this. And, you know, I think there is an appreciation that Michael Carrick was an amazing player for the club, and as Chris has said, did a really good job last season. I don't think they want to turn on him, but I think with some of these players, obviously the newer ones, it's different, but I think certainly some of these players, the fans have kind of been here before with them now, several times. And I think there is a feeling of, you know, we're not stupid. We can see when you turn it on and when you don't turn it on. I feel that way about a couple of the players, perhaps. I actually, you know, I feel watching them yesterday. I actually thought some of them just looked scared and so low on confidence. Which is the ones, Adam? That looks scared. I thought, "Aid and Heaven looked terrified in the second half yesterday, with the ball at his feet." I thought, "Senna Lommons, looked nervous, Euro after making them the mistake." I think, you know, someone like Telemund, I don't look at him and think he's not trying. I look at him and think he's almost thinking, "What the heck have I walked into?" You know, there's obviously stuff that's going on with Fernandez and Kanye and the manager, where I think that, you know, Martin as, where I think there's more questions about character and personality there. But I think a lot of them, I just look at and think they just look like they cannot control what is happening to them at the moment. And it's like a spiral and there doesn't seem to be the cohesion, unity, leadership. You know, and some of that is on the coach as well to steer them out of that when those waters are choppy. But also, it looks like the players simply, the senior players don't agree over who's to blame, what's to blame, how to get out of it. Adam, I think the problem is now that Manu Knight had one of the biggest clubs in the world and they still have that massive expectation. But at the moment where they're at, they're not able to attract that level of player who have that sort of, the mental strength to be able to be 2-0 down against Bournemouth. And have that mental strength to still get on the board and still play. I look at someone like Casamero, that's like the level of player they were attracting yesterday. And you look at him in the last few years. He was basically told to give up the footballer left him, but he came back because he used to play in a big club, he used to that expectation. He came back and ended up being a key player for them in the last couple years. So I think they're caught in a situation where as now you look through their team, they don't have the world-class players with that world-class mentality and they're struggling living up to the expectation of being one of the biggest clubs in the world and being expected to win every game. Yeah, I agree, but there's also a difference in the, I don't think it's necessarily that they've given it's not, they're not attracting them. It's actually they've stopped trying for some of these players. And part of that is because for a few years to be fair, people like, certainly me, were saying why they're spending, you know, 300 grand a week on someone real Madrid doesn't want, you know, who is coming towards the end of his career. But actually, if you look at Man United's wage bill now, I think for this season they will land around 5th or 6th in terms of wage bill, and wage bill more than transfer fees indicate generally where a team will finish. How does that relate to stopped trying? Wait, it doesn't, but in terms of the number of players that you've got, that, you know, Andrews is talking about those players with that level of mentality, that doesn't come cheap. That doesn't come cheap and they have stopped competing at that level for players. How do we use it? Is it not what Andrew says, though? And I'm with Andrews on this that they can't. We'll flip it around to play it on who, on who you're agreeing with. Well, I'm just saying, move on from me. You know, they can't, but they can't attract the cream of the crop anymore. They don't want to go to Manchester United anymore. There's a top plate. But there's a bad thing they're trying. That's the point I mentioned. I think you're both kind of, you're both right in some ways. And in fact, your colleague at the athletic atom, Laurie Whitwell, did a, you look worried which colleague I was going to answer that. Laurie did a massive interview with Eric Tenhard last week. And Tenhard made the point that, I mean, it wasn't rocket science to identify these two players. But he wanted, he wanted rice and, and he wanted Harry Kane. And his feeling was that United didn't even want to try to negotiate with either club to get either player out of West Ham and Spurs respectively. Because of, particularly with Kane and Daniel Levy, the, the trickiness of the negotiations. I mean, that was, that was, that was Tenhard's point, wasn't it? Yeah, I think so. And I think this summer, they weren't competing with Manchester City for Elliott Anderson. They weren't competing with Spurs for Sonali. They, you know, and I have to say at the end of, in the middle of the window, when I'm looking at those players coming in, you're thinking, you know, Telemann's, he's been a good player for Austin Villa, 35 million. That looks like a good deal. You're thinking, the Labour, okay, not the best season last year, but clearly, I think most people watch him and think there's a player in there. Andrei Santos, I think everyone was a bit, you know, one of the, they've, they've seen something, maybe give them benefit of the doubt. So you see how he does. I don't think people came away from those deals thinking, that's a disastrous summer from a midfield point of view, but they weren't competing at that top of the shelf level for Tanali, Fernandez, the two Fernandez is, the one from West Ham and the one from Chelsea, and also Elliott Anderson, because they do not have, well, they are not prepared to spend the finances, and they also have been unable to sell players for such a long time, but particularly, I mean, this summer, they're not sold anyone. So they've not brought any money in to spend. So Adam, is it 100% the financial aspect, or do you think that, that when they're trying to bring players in, they just know now, they don't, you say they stop trying, but they know now, they're not going to get the, the top ones. Well, I think it's a choice. It is a, you know, a choice based on, you know, they have to stay within the Premier League financial rules, so they can't just keep spending money if money's not coming in from a transfer point of view. Obviously, the last season, they were out of the Champions League, so that had a big impact on how much you were able to spend. And then, you know, I know sometimes other fans of other clubs don't like to hear it, but it is the truth that has been running through the club now for far too long, which is a lot of money still goes out to pay the interest on the debt that was put on the club by the Glazers. And that, that is a continuing issue for the club and will continue to be, you know, and even as you look at, you think, okay, so what will they do in January? Well, they'll probably have to start thinking in January the way this season is going, probably not going to make the Champions League, so how much can you spend in January? Because you're going to have to protect the, you can't spend beyond your means both in terms of the rules, and also, you know, the, I don't think any of us are going to keep putting money in if the Glazers aren't. They'll come onto the execs in a moment, obviously owners and technical director, football, whatever he is now, and chief exec in, in just a moment. Androssan, you know, you think whenever you're on the show that I can go back to, to your relegation battles, but even, even when you are with the team that was struggling, did you have players give interviews such as Los Angeles Martinez and Bruno Fernandez in consecutive weeks? No, never. I think stuff like that, listen, I think Bruno Fernandez is spot on with everything he said, and it's something I've been saying all season, but you just can't, you just can't, especially when you're the captain, you can't be going out and creating that division and, and going against what the manager's saying, and yeah, you need to be sitting the example. So even though I think it's points right, it's just, it's just a recipe for disaster. You know, these journalists are just waiting to write articles on man United, and you're just, you're just giving them exactly what they want. So, yeah, I think that's not helping them at all. To always done, I think he's done this today. This is right Adam, isn't it? What he's done on social, have you seen this? What he's done on social media today? All right. So, James Ducca of the Telegraph. On social media today, Bruno Fernandez has liked an insta post from, I mean, sometimes you can make this up. He's liked an insta post from the short 2014 animation film, A Tale of Momentum in Inertia, showing a giant creature made from rocks, trying to prevent a boulder from crushing a nearby town alongside the words, never push a loyal person to the police. were they no longer care? I mean, why? Why, Chris? Well, I couldn't tell you why. No, no, he should, it's the behaviour of a snake though, isn't it? And there's everything Andross, you know, said, that's your club captain, that's your leader in the dressing room, you know, if that is true, that stuff, you know, on Instagram, it's just, it's snaky, it's snydy, you know, it just keeps things going, you know, in many ways, you know, he was entitled to his opinion, but it's always going to cause riffs in the dressing room, but it's even worse now for him to carry it on. It's like always trying to get the last, the last word in, with things and to absolve himself from a situation where he hasn't played particularly well this season, you know, he hasn't, he hasn't done the team many favours, he hasn't done himself any favours, and you find out a lot about people in times of deficiency, you know, in times of trouble, and we're really seeing what Bruno Fernandez absolutely is, and he's a snake. Can I ask Chris, what I do, is the use of a strong word there, and it's snaky. To me, the fact he's done it publicly, in some ways, I think that's braver than when, you know, I've been in a position as a journalist where, you know, players feed things through their agents, they feed things through PR people, I think that's more snaky than, you know, ask the question, I can completely see the argument is done more harm than good, but I don't know, I mean, you're saying, you know, don't go on Instagram, don't you? What should these players be doing? Keeping the head down at this moment, and I'm training hard, working hard, and trying to get themselves out of a, you know, a terrible situation. I don't have any problem with a player inside a dressing room, having a proper manager saying it to his face, as long as it stays within the confines of the dressing room, that's absolutely fine, and it's good, I think, if people get things out, and most managers, if not all managers, I played under encouraged, open debate, strong debate, because, you know, in the end, you all want to improve together, but, you know, that togetherness is so important, and when it's the messaging, when the club captain, you know, is coming out and digging the manager out for his tactics, it's a problem, it's always going to be a problem, and it's a bigger problem when you're at Manchester United. Email from Iver in Northern Ireland, [email protected], by the way, you can WhatsApp us 0808 5909 693. Iversize, too many players at United have been there too long, they haven't been good enough to win before now, why expect Carrick to work miracles with the same level of incompetence, also missing Casamiro, a leader, and proven winner. And this question, I suppose, Andros, is easier to ask on the back of Spurs actually winning that Chelsea now, but Spurs made a very definitive plan during the summer. Yes, they brought a lot of players in, but those that had been there through quite a lot of the difficult stuff, when it hadn't been going well, they tried to move on. United, as we were talking about earlier, because their failure to move players on still have a lot of players who have been there through maybe some of them up to a decade of this constant cycle of hope, then disappointment, a kind of a shoot of recovery, but then it goes back to how it has been. Do they need to cut their losses on those to try and start a fresh? I think they probably do, and you look at you go to the Spurs situation, they were they were desperate in the last season, so they probably would have given deservedly full control in the summer. Listen, come and keep us up, you can have full control, wherever stays and goes is up to you, and you look to see what he's done with Richarlison, I probably don't agree with it, but he doesn't want him in the squad. He's outcasted him, whereas at Man United, you have players who have been outcasted by many a manager, but they find their way back in, because I don't think any manager has that definitive power. I think Tenhog had a bit, Amarim had a little bit, but none of them have had that 100% final word. I don't want this player getting out of my squad. He's not going to play, and I think that's the problem when you have players who are not wanted or don't want to be there or not playing, not good enough, and then you still have to keep them in the squad and you still have to integrate them within the team. That creates problems, creates problems on the pitch, and it creates problems in the dressing room, because they're bringing a negative atmosphere, and you can see that across the squad that they have players who don't want to be there, who are not wanted there, but are still having to try and move the players every day. Given the fans' feelings yesterday, Adam, and who they directed their anger at, the owners, the glazes and Ratcliffe, the chief exec, and the sporting director, when did any of them last make a good decision? The mic's not cut out, I'm just trying to think of one. It's been a while. It's been a while. I mean, when any of us came in, I think everyone knows now, but the cycle of decisions has been poor. They renewed Eric Tenhaag, and then dismissed Eric Tenhaag. They told Ruben Emmerheim that he was a long-term project, but then they couldn't handle the pain of a long-term project. Admittedly, it was pretty awful. They allowed him to start building a squad for his system, then they're back to a system with a full of the bat rather than a five at the back. Michael Carrick as an interim, I guess was a good decision. I moved Dan Ashworth in the middle of all that as well. I guess Michael Carrick as an interim, that was a good decision. It got them to the Champions League places. I have some sympathy with giving Carrick the job full time. I think if you've done a poll of many people at the end of last season, it was pretty hard to turn around and say this guy doesn't deserve a go. He was winning every week, and it would have taken a very brave decision at that point to say, thanks for your work, Michael, off your pop. That would have been pretty great. Adam, you did make a point earlier. I'm not digging you out of here, but you did make a point earlier about the closeness of a lot of the games, which you cannot argue then. If they were doing their job properly, and essentially Carrick was getting more out of the team in both boxes, I think they were outperforming their XG. I never thought I'd say that. So should they have seen through that then and looked at that harder? What was that actually happening? I think that's a fair argument. I think the other side of that is the Premier League is really competitive, and most teams don't win by two goals, three goals, four goals every week. Are you going to tell Michael, remember a few of those slightly bigger wins, Man City 2-0, Aston Villa 3-1, Brighton last day of the season, they're winning 3-0, you know, these are good teams that they're putting away in some of those bigger games. So I have something, it felt to me at the time. I remember someone asking me saying, what should they do with Carrick? I said someone, if they're keeping it or probably going wrong, and if they change it, they'll probably get killed because they start the new season badly with the new manager. It just felt like it was going to go that way kind of whatever happened, and I think a lot of that is they've not got enough depth of quality, and that is the real issue that has killed him. The other thing, and then we'll look at the documentary side of things, just to find the one Adam, because you have tweeted about this in the last 24 hours, about Omar Barada, the CEO. I mean, quite a lot of United's philosophy over the last couple of years appears to have been to try higher figures from Manchester City and hope they can replicate some of that success at United. You would have thought that he is under a massive amount of pressure at the moment. Yeah, he's got to be, because there's got to be at a certain point accountability and consequences for the people who make big decisions, and Manchester United keep making bad decisions. I presume it's not going to be the owners themselves who take responsibility for those big decisions, and when Omar Barada came in, he was kind of touted to this guy who not only has a good sense of commercial because of his record at Man City, and also had kind of been involved in some signings at Man City, so therefore there was an idea that he could cut across commercial and also the football side, and that has not gone well. And you've got to remember within all of this as well, Man United, as you say they've done, they're doing this Amazon thing, but they've kind of gone to war with their own fans over ticket prices, at certain points over trying to tackle ticket-touting, which has also upset fans because some fans feel they've been unfairly targeted with that. If you're going to do that, you better be winning. The other thing that they promised was this new stadium. I mean, we still have no idea how they're going to pay for this, this new stadium, they keep talking about it, but nobody's making clear at all. Where's this money coming from? And how do you build a stadium which costs a lot of money? We saw this with a challenge with Arsenal, Tottenham Rail Madrid to an extent. How do you keep a team competitive when money is coming out? a build, a stadium. So there's a lot of questions. Let's talk about the Amazon all or nothing documentary, then. Have you ever been in a situation where the every move at an organisation you've been in has been filmed? No, I don't think so. Would you like it? I hate it. I would absolutely hate it. I think Chris will agree. I think especially some of those I've watched in the past and it's like going into your dressing room, like which is your, as a footballer, your sacred space, that's your safe place away from star for just you players where you're free to moan about the manage, if you want moan about the tactics, moan about teammates and just speak freely. And if you're you're having your privacy invaded by cameras and you can't even speak freely, it's for me it would be a nightmare. I don't know if you agree Chris. Well, are you in talks Chris? I know obviously at home with the runes is big on Disney plus. So are you are you in similar at home with the Sutton's would be, I mean actually that would be must watch TV actually. Yeah, they probably wouldn't get up the driveway at the minute. We had a bit of damage to the trees and things over there with storm below. Have you cleared it? Yeah, well, yeah, my wife did actually, yeah, over the weekend. What was you were just watching football? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Sure is a sad. Yeah. So yeah, I'm with Andros on this. I think that you you'd feel shackled as much, you know, inhibited it. And you know, at times people want to express themselves in a certain way and get things out. And if there's a camera there, you wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't quite feel the same. You know, I think a lot of players would hold back and it shouldn't really be like that. I don't know why football, but I do know I football clubs are doing it, but I don't agree with that. I think that, you know, it's it's not a helpful thing because in times of crisis when you need to get things out there, you don't want a camera stuck in your face while you're saying what you want to want to say. Let's bring Simon Grayson in, the Sunderland Manager at the start of the 2017-18 season when the Netflix documentary Sunderland Till I Die had their cameras in the dress room. Does it bring back horrible memories? Was it difficult for you? Even if you were right, by the way, I haven't seen you for ages. Good, good evening everybody. Look, my first knowledge of the Sunderland Till I Die was when I signed my contract. They said just letting you know that as a documentary that we're going to be doing this season, we wanted to do it the previous season, but David Moyes said no, do it next year. Moyes, he left that summer and I took over and I was then given the realms of dealing with a camera crew for the next three or four months as long as I lasted to be fair. But look, from my perspective, they wanted more than I gave them that they were desperate to be in the dress rooms as often as possible for team meetings, half times everything. And then we're never allowed in there. I didn't allow that to happen. I gave them footage of being in a round sort of training, but no real serious meetings or anything like that. And I don't know if that sort of wound up the wrong way a little bit, but I would like the lads of saying that the dress room is a special place. And I couldn't be comfortable with people filming me while I was talking to the players without shadowing out. Did that, but it just added an extra level then. I'm guessing, look, I have no idea whether this is an extra level that is going on at United that Michael Carrick has had to deal with. But for you, from what you're saying, that added an extra level on as to what they could be allowed into for when you were saying things and what they could be allowed into. It's an unnecessary complication, isn't it? Yeah, look, I think these documentaries are a real good insight if they're doing different parts of the football club. So what I mean by that is someone who's got in one respect that they were following supporters and been going into the factories and things like that. But when they wanted to jump in a car with me on my way home, it was basically like, no, don't want that. My time driving back to my family is my family time. I can be on the phone to my mates. I don't need a camera crew in the same car as me driving all the way back. And they were the sort of the realms where I didn't really enjoy or I didn't want to have. But also, I think the end product of these documentaries, you can either make or break it. And people don't get through this flexion on things. And what I mean by that is that I was doing team meeting. I allowed them to do a team meeting. And everybody thought that this team meeting was done an hour before kickoff this season. It was done three hours before kickoff on a pre-season game. And people said to me, oh, you didn't seem that motivated for this game. I went, right, I was doing it pretty much. So it wasn't here. I think come across in the right manner. And then also, I ended up sort of part of my settlement was that I had to go back and agreed to do some more filming. And basically, they asked me to be in a room, three different rooms in a hotel in London, three different shirts. And again, people said to me, you didn't come across as enthusiastic in July, August and September. And I said, well, I wasn't because I just faked that and it was all after the event. But it's again how it's produced and put out there basically, isn't it? That's fascinating, Simon. I mean, I know we reported last year that Ruben Amarim was first presented with this idea, I think, not long after the Europa League final that they lost against Tottenham. And he had, he had reservations. And I remember the time sort of, you know, the word from United was, you know, it was a unified decision by the club in the end, not to do it. Pretty much as soon as Ruben was out the door, they then decided to do it. And there have been any conversations you're aware of by the LMA, the League Managers Association, looking at how I guess coaches kind of protect themselves a little bit in these situations. Because, you know, Mike, this is probably arguably the two worst months possibly of Michael Carrick's career that is going to go to air and have, I suspect, a huge, huge audience. And is there a sense sort of between coaches managers that there needs to be sort of some protections around what happens in these situations? Yeah, look, look, the documentary I was involved with nine years ago, and there's a lot more around now. And I think they are run by the in-house production companies, most of them. And they do have a lot of the, probably, say on what happens on the end of filming and everything like that. And to be fair, four will 73, we're a Sundan fan base and very reputable company that have done loads and loads of documentaries. But I think now there's more of our influence from coaches that will say, look, we're not having this, we don't want to do that. And other coaches will have seen previous documentaries and be a little bit scared or knowing that it could scare them a little bit with the personalities and not do a true reflection of their personalities because of how it's portrayed. But also, how wary you are as what's going on at times as well. And also, if you are an Adam McGeedy spoke about this, Chris, in May of 2026, who is in the Sunderland team at the time. He said the fact that the club was going through a difficult period and that whole situation was played out to the public. It's a really difficult time and it isn't just one camera here and there. It is cameras everywhere and they are literally portraying one of the worst seasons the club has ever had. And then it's here you go, watch that on Netflix for the next 20 years. If you are in a real tricky spot, you do not want a camera crew around every corner. I think that in difficult situations clearly there was at Sunderland at the time, there isn't Manchester United. If things go out to air and certain things are said and certain things are heated and certain things are said in the spur of the moment, everybody wants to watch that. But there can be that humiliation factor for a player forever. Somebody who gets a certain dressing down as out there forever. I think that that's deeply unfair because it may not be reflective of how a manager or coach feels about a player, it could just be in that moment. That's why I would never like to be in a dressing room where something like that happened. And then it goes to air and somebody is portrayed in a certain light which wasn't necessarily reflective of the personality of that particular person. In terms of Sunderland documentary as well, sorry. Sunderland had been relegated from the Premier League so it was all about on paper a potential promotion winning season and getting back to the Premier League. So if you're not going to have a successful season from the viewing figures, you want to see sort of a real difficult period and me and Chris Coleman both lost our jobs off the back of it and the team got relegated to League 1. So it wasn't a bad viewing figures in that respect but as those managers we wanted it to be part of a successful campaign. I think that the problem with from a player, I think back to the documentaries I've watched and that's Sunderland documentary. I don't know if it was your year Simon but it was made to look as if Jack Rodwell was that he was made to look as a scapegoat for one throwaway comment he made. I think to the spurs one Danny Rose was made to be a scapegoat for a conversation he had with Marina which he fought behind the closed doors. And I remember in Arsenal's once Sammy Lacong I made a comment in the canteen and he was made to be a scapegoat. So you have to remember these things are controlled by the people up above and if things are not going well they need a scapegoat. it can either be the manager or one of the players who maybe the fans don't like anyway. So yeah, as a player, it's just a recipe for disaster, these sort of things. Simon, thank you for coming on. Good to see you soon. Yes, everybody. Thank you. Simon Grayson with us on the Monday night, just finally to sort of bring it to an end in the last five minutes on the United. If Carrick were to go, Chris, the frontrunners are rumoured to be Eddie Howard Nargosman. I'm assuming because you wouldn't have to pay any compensation for them, so that would be a massive tick. Also, do you think they would be quite, they wouldn't challenge anybody? What do you mean challenge? I mean challenge the ownership and the execs to, like in the way that Antonio Conte would. So, I think Miller wrote on the athletic, if United don't hire Antonio Conte because of their fear of being challenged, that is not an acceptable reason. Yeah, because Conte would, you know, he's a strong character. In fairness, Eddie Howard, you know, I think that he isn't a soft touch. I think he proved that it's a new castle. I think it's such a difficult job to go into, you know, anybody looking at that job worth the soul I suppose at this moment in time would, you think about the history of Manchester United, but then you think about the recent history, the last few seasons, you look at the squad, you've talked about the squad, the fact they can't, you know, get rid of players, you know, how are they going to take this club to the next level? And, you know, great managers have tried Van Garland, Marineo, they've tried to set a younger, trendy coaches, and nothing has worked. So, I think it's a, you know, it's, it's an impossible job to get to Manchester United want to get to, I think. Would you go along with Chris and Andrews, that it makes no difference, really, who they are, point. They're stuck in the same cycle. I would, I would lean for, for a nougalsman. I think Eddie Howard, amazing job at Newcastle, but I think, will the players respect him like they would a nougalman, and that's like, currently, if your captain's coming out and making statements post-match against you and like an Instagram post against you, that means he doesn't respect you, he doesn't, it doesn't respect your authority, he's not scared of what the consequences, and I fear if they get any help, wouldn't can't they be even more of put the fear of God into them? Yes, but like the article said, was it? Yeah. He's going to challenge, he's going to challenge the authority, and they don't want that. They need someone with authority, but it's going to total the line and a good coach with good CV. But they respect nougalsman more than Eddie Howard. I just think his CV's, he's managing Germany, he's managed a big clubs in the world. I think he comes with a good, a big reputation from abroad. I don't know, maybe, maybe I'm wrong, but I think they would, they would respect him more for what he's done in the game than rightly or wrongly than in Eddie Howard. Now, do you think they should be more worried about the coach respecting them? I mean, based on what they've produced over the last three or four years, if I look at the last years of Eddie Howard's job at Newcastle, I mean, I wouldn't be worried if I was Eddie Howard walking into that dressing room. I've not failed. I've never let myself down. Those players are the ones that need to be proving themselves really. Now, the difference is, I get your point, Andross, your sense is, do these players have that humility to look outside of themselves and recognize their own limitations and how good these other people are being, but I mean, that would be really quite a sad reflection of how kind of up themselves, basically, these players have become. Well, yeah, I was waiting for it. I was waiting for a response, but I was waiting for a response back. I agree, but I think just Bruno Fernandez had done that interview during the Amarim ten-year. No, would he have done it under the ten-hug ten-year? No. I'm going to go back in further, which I say, I mean, how do you know that? You can't say that. Because they didn't. Because they didn't. The only one that spoke out under those regimes was one of the greatest players to ever play the game. And that's Cristiano Ronaldo. And look what happened to them. Yeah, well, Bruno Fernandez, you know, Fancy's himself, as well, has just… But you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't say that, you know, you can't throw that out there. You didn't, though. No, did he? That's the point. But Fancy, he didn't. But he has done now. Yeah. That's the point. That's what I'm saying, maybe. That's exactly my point. He might have done. Maybe that's the point. He's always had that side to him, the sulky side, the toys at the pram side, the waving their arms around the blame culture. He's always been one of them. He's been a fantastic player, but he's always had that. With the BBC sounds out, get access to the biggest sporting moments as they happen on five sports extra, sports extra two and sports extra three. Oh, what a cross! Champions in Paris for the first time. Scroll through the live radio dial and put yourself at the heart at the action. This is the Monday night club with Mark Chapman. On the football daily podcast card. That's how I said, Adam Grafter. Chris Lutter with us on the Monday night club. Is you know, Emery Chris, the best coach in the Premier League? Probably. Probably. I mean Arsenal fans will say Arthetta. You know, Emery didn't cut it at Arsenal. He's a purist. You know, he's responsible the way that Villa play, the way that they build. And I mean, just the job he's done at Villa season in season out. They're recruitment, which, you know, players who he brings in. And it's fascinating because, you know, over the years since he's been in charge at Villa, he's brought a lot of players in. And they have to, they have to wait and buy the time to actually get a starting place. I think Gomez, this season, started the first game against Brighton where they lost. We don't say to go though. It wasn't a great start for him. You'd have to go back. I think it was at three seasons, something like that for one of the summer signings to see one of the summer signings actually starting in the first Premier League game of the season. So it's fascinating the way that he goes about it. And you know, he's nurturing, he's coaching and he's developing players to play exactly the way that he wants to play. Steven Warner said to me on Saturday, Andrew, he'd watched some of the Villa training sessions and the level of detail that Emory goes to. But also he said, you know, there are certain things that he expects of his fullback that wouldn't normally be the standard thing that a fullback does. So he doesn't, he's Steven Warner was saying to me, he doesn't want the fullback to show a wide player outside him. He wants him to show him inside so that the cent half then comes along and comes alongside and doubles up in the channel. And therefore the wide man is immediately got to V1 to deal with. And that isn't, he was saying, that's not a normal, you know, normally as a fullback. You're told, show the man on the outside and then, and then try and win the ball. And because of that. I think it makes sense. So because of examples of that level of detail and you can talk me through that as well, that is why players have to buy their time before before coming into the starting 11. Yeah, and I think that makes sense. Listen to what Steven Warner said because their strength is in the middle. They play two number sixes. They play sort of a box midfield with McGinn and Manzan becoming inside as well. And the strength isn't in the wider areas. It's inside. So makes sense. They're showing inside into where their bodies are. But I think I watched them the other day and it's no different to it. And I. I played them three years ago. Now they're playing the same way different personnel, but exactly the same way and it's. It shows when you have someone like Nick Nicholas Jackson coming in. He can seamlessly pick up from from Ollie walking because it's the same. Because the managers pick the signing is the same sort of way of playing. The same profile was only walking so he can fit into the system almost seamlessly and hit the brown running like he has. Do you think they are evolving in any way though in the sense of he's got Alison now. He's got him by there as well. Do you think. And there've been several wingers over recent years who Villa have brought in. And you thought, OK, right. This could go really well for them. And then that that winner has disappeared within a year or 18 months. But with Alison then by the way they've started and the way you look at them, you wonder whether. Maybe Emory will change a little bit from that box system and will use with a bit more. Do you think. Possibly. Yeah, on the weekend it was that sort of that box midfield that he used back with the players coming through and the wide ops. And he has now he might we might not have it. We might have not have a choice but to switch, especially in listening to playing many games and many competitions. We may see him tweak things in the Champions League or the Premier League or the Cup competitions. But for me what I've seen this season it's that sort of tried and trusted way of playing that has got them that they're success in the past. That's continuing to get them that they're success now. Marlon was one they tried out wide but he wanted to play through the middle didn't he Adam? Who was the or anybody who did this? Who was the lad this time from Leverkusen and you thought, right, OK. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. It's fascinating the way not to kind of bring it down slightly, but like they have these weirdly bad stars, obviously they had the same last year, I know this year there's been a big turnover, so it was kind of understandable, but you never even with that bad star never have really had the sense of they're going to have a bad season because you just trust him so much. And you know I think it's probably harsh to not to say our test is the best coach in the league, but in terms of a manager of a club that has control of his club and where you never have any real doubt that they're going to be okay, I think you know the way Emory is doing it there is amazing. I mean I spoke to someone pretty high up at Villa over the weekend and after the city game I said you were worried at all about Man United, Emory, they sort of had a nipple at him early in the year and they said no not at all because I think he is excited by what he is now able to build with this young team. He won't be able to do any of what he's done at Villa at United, would he? No, he won't have the freedom to do it, he won't have the budget to do it, they won't be able to sell players so they'd never be able to turn over a squad anyway. Do you have any, I mean you talk at someone Villa now, I talked to somebody at Villa after maybe about a year of Emory being there and this person had been involved in the recruitment process of Emory and they said to me you know because then Pogetino was linked as well at the time with that Villa job. He was after Gerard had gone wasn't it? Yeah. And he said when they just looked at the stats of success and titles and points and once you took Klopp and Guadaluro out of the occasion, out of the equation there was only one candidate and that was Emory who across Europe was slotted in behind those two and I don't think people necessarily would have realised that at the time. Do you? No, I think it was so much at least in the UK it was about he's the guy who didn't do it Arsenal. And I think that was the perception of Emory and what he did at Villa Real and Sevilla, Valencia, even PSG to a certain extent, obviously had some big disappointment at PSG. But I do think this, Chris is going to say this is talking Villa down, it's not talking Villa down, but the this level of club, the what a challenger club I think is perfect for him. You know, both in terms of the style of play being able to be in a dressing room where the players feel kind of in awe of you to a certain extent. I think those players, most of those players at Villa think the manager is the manager is probably at a higher level than most of the players. Are you saying you don't think he can manage up because of what happened at Arsenal? He did manage PSG, of course. So, you know, you're saying he's a Villa are a challenger club, that's fair enough. Are you saying that he couldn't manage A? No, I don't think it, I think he can manage it up into, he can manage a board because look at, I mean, he's got total control at Villa. What I'm saying is, you know, he is so demanding in terms of, you know, the extra meetings, the video analysis, you know, you listen to any of the players, they will tell you it's sometimes boring. I think you can probably get away with that a bit better at that club that is pushing against the elite rather than going in at a PSG. You know, he had problems at PSG with players like Neymar, etc, getting them to do that and buy in and listen. It's sad that that's the case, but that was a complaint. What do you think Nicholas Jackson's goal tally should be by the end of the season? Should he be 20 plus, Andrews, given how he started? I think he should be, but again, I think that's probably the one part of his game that was missing in his last time in the Premier League. I think when he's at Chelsea, he showed great ability to run in behind, great pace was a threat, but it was just that final end product where wasn't as clinical as he should be, and that's probably why he got moved on from Chelsea, but he should be the way he's playing now, the chances they're creating for him, it's all set up for him, like it was for all the Watkins to get 15 to 20 goals of season, it's all set up for him, and let's see if he now has the maturity to be able to keep this form going. The reason I ask that Chris is because when you look at the numbers from strikers who have played under Unai Emery, the numbers are so impressive that several of them are better than one in two. There are a couple who aren't at one in two, but the majority of them are better than one in two. David Vera Valencia, 58 in 85, when being managed by Emery. I've earned a grado at the Lenscher as well, 31 in 42, Kevin Gimiro at Sevilla, 68 in 147, Cavani at Paris Saint-Germain, 89 in 98, Obamia, 60 in 95 at Arsenal, back to Villarreal with Gerro Moreno, 43 in 73, and then Oli Watkins is sort of one in every two and a half, really, with 81 in 204 at Villa, but that can't be coincidence. No, and have their specific role in the team as Oli Watkins had and Nicholas Jackson has now. He is their actor number nine. He is their goal scorer. There are players behind who are the creators of Watkins in the last couple of seasons. He had Morgan Rodgers playing in behind him. You know, Amy Boundia is there. They've got Villa, got Manzambi now to feed Jackson. I like Jackson, and he's, I totally agree with Andrews says about him at Chelsea, where he wasn't necessarily clinical, but just looking back and people talk about his time at Villarreal with Unai Emery. Unai Emery barely played him. I don't think he started a game in LaLiga under Unai Emery, and then he was, you know, he's still only 25 now. So he goes to Chelsea. He's still quite a young, you know, a young guy who was thrusting and, you know, all that comes with being a, you know, a number nine at Chelsea. You know, he wasn't as clinical as he should have been, and that was an issue, but he was a, you know, he's a, you know, young guy. His, his actual, I think, his second season at Chelsea, you know, was better. I think he was nearly one in two at Chelsea, in the Premier League, 1431, something like that. I don't know how many starts there were in there. And then going to Bayern Munich, he's never going to play in front of Harry Kane. So he, you know, he has to take that secondary role and, you know, he's in and out of the team coming off the bench, and he did pretty well, but he feels, you know, loved at Villa. He's going to be the main guy. He possibly would have looked at Oli Watkins and the fact that, you know, the goals he scored the role which he was playing. And he's flourishing and he's, he's thriving at this moment in time. So if he stays fit, I've got, I've got no doubt that he will hit 20, but he's, he's, he's actually more than, than just the guy sort of, who, you know, scores the goals. I think, I think he holds the ball well. I think he links well. I think he, you know, he will, he is a dribbler. He can move in behind. I think he's got some fantastic attributes. His second goal against City was, was a, was a cracking goal, Andrews. But in particular, the way he held his touch as the ball came into him, and then as he laid it off as much as the finish. Yeah, I think he's, sorry, he's overall played chap as in that game. He's, he's hold up plays, he's running in behind, and his first touches, bringing people into play. He run, Marghe, he ragged, and not many people do that. It was, it was a joy to watch him. It was a masterclass in, in, in, in striking play. Um, and like Chris said, he has that in the locker. He just, that final bit, which, which he didn't have at Chelsea. But I think he was made escape go at Chelsea unnecessarily. I don't think he was, I think they could do with him now, Chelsea. I think he's, he's a, he's a top striker. He seems to be coming into the right age where it's even now or never. He's either going to, it's even going to click in his head. He's either going to put it all together and become that clinical striker that his talent deserves or all he's not. So I'm interested to see how he progress, progress is his season. Would you ever know what you're a Pedro, though? Would you, would you play him ahead of I think it's, it's a different option. And when they got rid of him, I thought he's, it's an option they, they didn't have. Yes, they have a Jal Pedro, they have like the false nines, but they never had, they, they don't have a number nine who can run in behind and make himself a nuisance, who can hold up the ball, bring people into play. And that's why they've, they've looked to Danny Walbeck, somebody who's, well into their thirties now to try and be that second option to a Jal Pedro, but to have him in the role, he's not in the weekend for old Danny. No, that's right. Tottenham Beeden. No, but actually there, there's your point, Andross, if it had Nicholas Jackson, he probably would have started him. Yeah, no, 100% I think those are the games that Chelsea probably need a Nicholas Jackson. Somebody who can stretch to play against the Spurs, who play a high line, who tried to press high up the pitch to have a Nicholas Jackson to keep them honest like he did with that man's city high line is something they, they don't really have this season, they don't have that second option of it out and out. strike and like an necklace Jackson the final thing a necklace Jackson and Chris will roll his eyes at this Adam so I'll come to you on it. It feels like there is a lot of good will towards him and not just from filler fans. There does seem to be a lot a lot of people who are wanting him to succeed. Yeah are you rolling your eyes Chris? No I just I just who were these people who didn't want him to succeed before. Well I think people well I'm not saying people didn't want him to succeed I think because of how he was perceived at Chelsea and then not playing it. I just think there are a lot of people who he just comes across a really nice nice guy I think a lot of people want him to do well that's all. Yeah I don't like I haven't you know I'm going to spreadsheet on it I'm gone I'm not I'm not a research on family fortunes going round asking a hundred people it's just just what I sense from listening to people. Yeah that's also a show I can really imagine Chris watching. Family fortunes yeah maybe while his wife is could maybe while his wife was cleaning the driveway yesterday. I'm not sure it's all at the moment but when they when they did they brought back celebrity family fortunes I think the Sutton family on family fortunes with four of them four of them and maybe one of their horses as the fifth would be would be would be good television Chris. I'm called bullseye I like bullseye you remember that you can't be a bit of bully you remember that Adam would you? No but you have lived such a sheltered line. I mean that's the other that's the other side of it anyhow thank you Adam thank you Andrews thank you Chris. The football daily podcast with Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith we are here and we're back twice a week every Thursday and Sunday we are going to try and tackle all of the big stories in football throughout the season. Everyone's talking at the moment about you got to invest in gold so I think you just melt it all down then you give each of the teams a little bit of gold there you go. Yeah I mean the big revelation for me there is that you think the trophy's made out of gold yeah silverware yeah silver. The football daily podcast with Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith. Listen on BBC Sounds. Sometimes we all need an extra help in hand especially with the tricky business problem you've been putting off. 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That's Claude.ai/solve and check out Claude Pro which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode Claude.ai/solve. This week on the interface millions of kids have grown up on camera with their childhoods turned into content. There's a new law in California that gives influencers the right to be forgotten and it could impact adults too. And an attack on Russian data center started a rumor that all the evil disinformation bots had been deleted from the internet but the truth might actually be a lot scarier. For our take join me Jess Maddox and me Thomas Germain for the interface. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.