MNC: Manchester City defiant, Fulham struggling and Seedorf in Brazil

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Welcome to the Monday Nightclub at Rory Smith, Chris Sutton, Andross Townsend. So we can play where in the world is Andross. Obviously you in the same place you were in last time. What time is it where you are? It is 1 a.m. and yes, I'm in Thailand now, so yeah, we're good. So it's 1 a.m. at the moment. It is 1 a.m. Yeah, I've had a couple of our maps, so I'm ready. Thank you for your dedication, then. We'll try to make sure we don't lull between two and three your time. So that you stay managed to avoid any machinery and equipment. I have, although the heavy machinery showed up at half time again in the game yesterday, so I wasn't, I wasn't too pleased about that. But yeah, it's generally, when I saw it had like PTSD, it was just like how you hear again after everything that's happened, but yeah, I managed to stay clear of it this time. Andross, you know that Chris thinks it was that deliberate? I've had, I've had it's even deliberate or a PR set up for me. So I've had everything thrown at me. I mean, you'd have a terrible team around you if they're only PR, but they could come up with, if you'd run over by a roller. Andross, I've got an idea to pitch to you. It's a little bit landfills. Right, then. So Rory, Chris, Andross are with us. We start with Liverpool against Manchester City and cities win at Amfield yesterday by three goals to Neil. I mean, I've thought all the way through this from doing it. Yesterday from talking about it earlier on something I was doing, Rory, that from now on with City, you kind of do not have to separate the performance and the match from the context. I look at their performance and how they played against the backdrop of everything they've gone through, but what that does to the league table? I mean, does it matter? Well, I don't know, chapters to be honest. I think, and I think it's okay for everyone who's in a position to comment on football, whether you're a former player, whether you're a journalist, whether you're kind of fan sitting on like Gary Neville's benches on the overlap. However you're doing it, like none of us know, does this hasn't happened before? Like, this is, we are in totally uncharted territory, that the team that, there's a team in the lead, it doesn't really, I don't think it really matters at their top. Our recuse of systematically undermining the integrity of that lead for 10 years, and everything that has happened since is compounded, is a compound effect of that 10-year period. And I don't know, like part of me thinks, yes, you separate the performance from the context, but then part of me thinks, well, actually, you can't, because we don't know what it means in a practical sense, in that, you know, since you've got 18 points, they might end the season on 90 points, they might end it on -10. You could say that you separate the context from the performance, and say that they were very impressive at Unfield, and that's great. But then, I don't know, I'm not sure you can do that that easily, because it's not like this is a minor thing. This is a fairly major issue that could mean that they don't win the title, maybe, or don't qualify for Europe, or start next season in lead 2, or whatever. But it also could mean that the whole point of the lead itself is in question, and that's quite serious. And therefore, Andrew, if you just take it as 90 minutes, they managed the first half and then cut loose when they had the man advantage. Yeah, I think I agree with Rory, but I think you have to give those players on the pitch credit. I know Gary Neville yesterday didn't want to do that, but you have to respect to go to Unfield and win 3-0. Yes, they were playing against 10 men when they scored the goals, but even before that, they were in control, they were managing the game, they had chances, they were the better side. So you have to give those players on the pitch to credit. What happens upstairs and what's happening off the pitch is a separate issue. Those players on the pitch went to one of the toughest places in the Premier League to go to, and won conventionally, so you have to give them their flowers, for sure. I'm sort of sick of hearing about all the city stuff, and you know, everybody's just talked about it for so long. It's, you know, when is the end in sight with this? And the thing I don't understand about all this is, if the Premier League have described what Manchester City has ashamed, didn't they? Then why don't they have the courage and the conviction to actually just call them out now and punish them now? If they are that certain of the sort of ground they are on, with this, that's what I don't understand. I think with regards to the players and the manager and the fans, I mean, they're nothing to do with it. So I thought their performance was excellent. And then like reading in some of the newspapers today, you know, City have been criticised for their celebrations and, you know, enjoying winning a game at Anfield. I mean, some of the stuff which is coming out is wild. I mean, it isn't the players fault, it isn't the managers fault. I think the manager has conducted himself really well, actually. You know, taking over from Pep and with everything which has happened. I think he's really, you know, stood up and been strong and the fans would have enjoyed it as well. And what are they meant to do? You know, what are they meant to do, Manchester City? Stop playing, walk around with miserable faces and all throw games? I mean, that's not going to be the case. They would have enjoyed the victory at Anfield anyway. Where has. I'm oblivious to this. Where has this criticism been? Well, even, I mean, just watching on the television yesterday, I mean, there was a few long faces because Manchester City won, wasn't there? And, you know, some of the descriptions of, you know, Manchester City scoring would be an unpopular goal around the country, not in all places. I think a lot of people have a lot of admiration as Andros said for the way the Manchester City players, you know, nothing to do with this, by the way, actually stepped up and performed. And it's not on, it's not on this group of Manchester City players. They just go out, have to go out and do the best. It's on the Premier League to make a decision to bring an end to all this. But as far as I can see, this is just going to rumble on, and rumble on, and rumble on, and that's not good for anyone. Yeah, and it's tricky, does. Yeah, no, it's not this group of players, but then this group of players don't play for Manchester City. If they don't do the 10 years of investing, none of them, 30 million, twid, of disguised funding, that's the problem. So, so, so, so what, so they, what, so what are you saying, then? They said, you know what, this is a couple of games, and be abused, weakened, and weak out for something, that they haven't been part of. It's the same for Enzo Moresco, the same for the Manchester City fanbase. This is to do with a, you know, a separate area of, you know, of the club. And if there's any stick flying around, then it should be aimed at them, not, you know, Manchester City players doing their jobs. Yeah, so, so I agree with you. Look, I would agree that it's completely not that it's not the players fault. To be honest, it's not really the players who were there at the time's fault. I mean, I'd be interested to know what their contract said, but they, you know, they, they didn't, there's no reason a player would say, well, can I just double check the sources, the commercial deals that are funding this contract? Like, that's not, that's not on the players at all. And it's certainly not on the players now. In, in terms of the criticism of the kind of, the gleefulness of the celebrations, it's, it's, that's a really tricky one, because no one expected City to turn up with like T-shirt saying, sorry, or like Banner's saying, we did it, please forgive us. Like, no one's asking for that. I think the fans probably didn't have to sing Caldune's name, that's a choice. There, there, there has been a, like a, a real, what's the word? Tendency to present Man City's fans, legitimately as victims of this, is it's their club, is their club's name that has been tarnished by it? It's really hard to think of them as victims when they're singing about how great it is to be cheats. That is, that's, that's a tricky one. Maybe, maybe, maybe, Rory, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek just to, just to wind people up and. Yeah, but it's a side effect. This isn't, this isn't right. No, but do, do, do football fans sing horrible songs? Yes. Yes, they do, yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's absolutely right. And it's, look, there's much more of fate. They had, those city, we're gonna talk to on a moment, but those, those city fans had to go there and be defiant. Didn't they? There's a lot of ways of being defiant. Yeah, believe me. That's what I mean. Well, what do you have done? Well, God, give us an example of what they should have done. I don't have to give you an example, because they did it. The bananas were the perfect response. The bananas made absolute sense. Does it, it's a link back to city's history. It's, it conveys the message of we've had dark times before. We, we survived them. It reminds you, to be honest, that city as an institution existed before this ownership and we'll continue to exist after it. it. That was the perfect response. What you don't have to do, it is a choice to be made. There was at least one person, I suspect just one person dressed up as a shake. There were people waving wads of money around. It's a little bit like you're enjoying that. And that look, that's absolutely fine. But I think someone said, on one of the, um, carries Jones who worked for the athletics that I'm one of their podcasts today. If you're going to act like a villain, you can't really be offended if nobody likes you. You just can't. That's the point of the villain. And I, I get that they had to be defiant. But I would was struck by how much there doesn't appear to be any sort of public facing, not regret, but soul search and going on. I'm sure there is privately. I'm absolutely certain there is privately. And you're right, Chris, that some of it is just because that's how fans react to stuff. That's true of all fan base. But what do you expect them to do? Hold up a big banner. We are, we are sorry. No, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I do not expect that at all. I thought, as I say, I thought the bananas were the perfect way of doing it. But I don't think it's for the fans, Rory, to be doing the soul search and the hard looking in the mirrored. It's got nothing to do with the fans. No, but it's, well, no, that, no, it's not there. No, it's not, obviously, no, it's not that they did it in the first place. But I think that when your team is accused of what, not even accused, that's wrong. They have been found guilty of, of what they have been found guilty of. It's one thing to not, no one's expecting them to boo city. I'm not saying that that's, that's reasonable at all. You expect fans to show their love for their club? Do you have a problem with them celebrating the goals as well? No, trust not. No, no, no. It's a brilliant win, like they should, they, they won that day on the pitch, famously. I think that reveling in, in the accusations is, is something that more people will find gawling. And that's, like, it's not, who cares what I think. But it's, I, I don't think you can sort of do something that you, you know, is provocative. And then be surprised when people are provoked. Let's, let's bring the city fan in, Michael Clapham with us on the Amfield. Yes, they even Michael, how are you? Hello, very well. A little bit hungover. Do you take a banana with you? Well, I didn't, and you know why I didn't, because we were told, oh, this is very dodgy. This one, my mum didn't want me to go. My family were telling me, don't go. All this intimidation that we were going to experience. And it didn't really come to pass, which, to be fair, is credit to Liverpool fans that he didn't get silly. So I'll, I'll give them that. I have to say, Michael, I kind of, behind a, a bit of a soundproof glass, but it didn't, the atmosphere didn't really feel that much different to any other game between two sort of big, historical rivals or current rivals or whatever. It didn't feel that much different. It, it brewed a bit for 10 minutes before kickoff, but it didn't, it didn't have the edge that I think a lot of people thought it might have. Would that be fair? Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. Obviously we've been there a lot of times and there's been some classic games. I think the first ten was pretty spicy. And then they had a bit of a wave in the second half where they had for again for five minutes, but look, all big teams have fun bases that are quite loud and then quite quiet. And it was, it was no different. So yeah. Did you enjoy yourself? Yes. That was it. That is a, that is a top five, that is a top five away game. That one. Yeah. Yeah. Because of the, because of the, because of the context, the performance was pretty good. You know, that's getting forgotten about a little bit, but it was a fantastic day. A lot of camaraderie amongst ourselves obviously. The thing about Rory said was trucking what to cash at them. They were doing that on the way in as well. So that's some, some, some youngsters were throwing, throwing what a presumed fake five as it was. So yeah. Very much to be fair. No one carries cash these days. Do you, do you, do you think Michael that, that certainly publicly and particularly during a game that as a group, you have to be defiant here are for, for the players. I thought I was going to come on here and be getting lambasted like we have been doing for last three weeks and dressing Chris, Chris have never agreed with you so much in my life. I will say as well, Chris, you've not been to a gig before. I'm a concert promoter. I'm going to invite you to, to one of my shows or at least you can go see a wait. Sure. I'm surely I'm a null lighting now. So, yeah. That's what I said. Yeah. Yeah. Really believe any of it. Exactly. No, and it was a great day. And what else are you going to do? That's what, that's what the guys have already said really. So what, what can you do? If you are getting, you're personally, people are shouting cheat at me. I've never cheated in my life. And I think something we always want to, I want to pivot to is that we're using this word cheat as if it's call chocolate or as if we've been much fixing or now I'm not so blind to, to see that we haven't given ourselves advantages that maybe bent the rules or went against rules that we signed up to. But we, we, the narratives shifted towards like we are robbing points, we are burying refs. I think one of the most frustrating things is getting told how to feel, getting told how to react. So three weeks ago, I was in a bit sort of like almost circumspect about it. Like, well, let's see what happens. But getting told time and time again, how you should be reacting is, it's calling and it does put you back up against the wall. And it does make you in that sort of Wimbledon millwall sort of mindset where we have to love us. We've got a good sense of humour. Yesterday, did you hear it mulled by the cheaters? Yeah, that was good. That's classic. And that's off the cuff at the game in it. So, you know, we used to be everyone's second favourite team. And now, well, you know, the other thing actually, because Carrega and Neville, nobody want to sit to in today. Excuse me. Are you talking for leads fans? Are you talking for Villa fans? Newcastle fans? I don't know. Reading fans. Is this sort of like absolutism that we are the bad guys every once was to lose? There's a lot of people that feel like these rules were brought in to stop us. And they were. Of course, they were. I'd be more annoyed at my club about wanting to sign up for the Super League. That will set me more than anything that I've heard so far. And we're hearing about the talking about protecting the integrity of the league. None of those clubs cared about protecting the integrity of the league when they were all wanting to swan off to the Super League. So, there's hypocrisy everywhere. And it is annoying to be quite honest. Michael, how did the, I mean, it's difficult on to answer, maybe, but how did the fan base feel about the ownership then at the club? You know, all joking aside, all this at a laughing, joking, chucking money. What's the view amongst the fan base? Well, bear in mind that I'll be in the self-standard it's against the switch on Saturday. So, I don't want to speak for everyone. I don't want to annoy any of our fanbases. It's such a big question, that Chris, to be fair, that there's certain members of the fan base that I'll just be like, no, no, we would never do anything wrong. Like, they've insulted your family, you know, like, you're going to defend them no matter what. There are plenty of people, plenty of reasonable heads that are sort of saying, all right, well, we've clearly at least bent rules. I think that's clear. We've still got the appeal to go through, but for me to speak for the whole fan base is very difficult. I think what I think is that the way Chelsea sort of got more of a slap on the wrist than what we're going to get is because they came to the table a bit more, didn't they? Where is we at total stonewall in them? We're just absolutely, no, no, no, something that they couldn't copy and they made it to some of the details on the files, couldn't be copy and pasted. I mean, you know what, Michael, it is an interesting point on that because one of the reasons Chelsea were dealt with, how Chelsea were dealt with is because they came to the table. Interestingly, the whole spygate situation with Tondeca, which was resolved last week, one of the things they took into account there was his contrition and that led to his suspended band rather than the sort of, well, I suppose you would call it belligerence at the moment, wouldn't you? Yeah, and we're talking about people operating the global level as well that aren't used to having slaps on the wrist or being sort of falling line. And again, I'm sort of 50/50 on that because I would, to be honest, quite like it if we did come to the table and we all want it, we all want it sorted out, don't we? I think some, you know, people talking about as getting going down to the national league and stuff like that is to be quite frank, that's the idea to see really that those kind of comments are just, you know, yeah, Michael, obviously this season is always going to be a turbulent time on the pitch because of pet believing and, and, um, uh, Mariska coming in the turn over that brings. But you think this sort of, in a weird way, this incident is kind of bringing everyone together. You saw the, the reaction after the game between the players and the fans, I think this is giving it, the players a bit of an extra focus to, to try and be successful, at least on the pitch this season. Yeah, I mean, we've got certain personalities in that dressing room now that, uh, we, you know, that's got loads, we've looked a bit tepid, aren't we? We've looked a bit like if it is bats to the wall, we're not going to come out swinging, you know, in terms of on the pitch. I think there's been a few question marks about where the Mariska's got the stomach for it, but I think his performance on Friday in the press conference was outstanding. And I think, you know, they all, they came over to us before the game, you know, stepping the badge and all that. And we've got certain heads in that dressing room now that Anderson, um, like Fernandez, that I think probably the other stomach for this fight, whether they stay with us if we're getting relegated or points, the doctrines are transferred to bands. I don't know. And I almost wouldn't expect them to because it's their career and it's only a short career. But I think, yeah, I do think they can draw from it and Harlan stayed out to the bitter end last night, and we don't know what he's like anyway, but he stayed to the bitter end milking the applause and sort of showing where he feels. year and we've got to respect that and we've got to back them to the max sort of thing. Michael, thank you very much for coming on Michael Clapham City Fan who's Amfield yesterday early in Ireland did say post-match for every single person part of Manchester City every fan. It is a lovely moment that we'll stay with us for a long time. It was tough, it was hard, but we showed an amazing character from back to front, so proud of everyone. Okay, let's turn our attention to Chelsea. Then two goals and one assist for Jordan Henderson at 36 against Bournemouth on Saturday. He played alongside Moises Kaiseido. Xavier Lanzo said afterwards, we've been working on Moises Kaiseido in alongside Jordan Henderson. Normally when you have a balance in a strong midfield the team is in better shape and they had control and Ross with those two. Now the question is I suppose whether that can be their midfield axis going forward. I think it definitely can be. I just love everything about Jordan Henderson, his professionalism, his simplicity to his game. He doesn't think he's something he's not, obviously scored two-worldly goals the other day, but he keeps it simple, he keeps it ticking, he's always speaking, he's always a message on his past, he's always dictating others around him. I think he's a fabulous, fabulous signing and for a team who's a young squad, I think he gives them the perfect experience and quality in that midfield area. So I think him and Kaiseido can certainly provide a good partnership moving forward. One of the interesting stats to come out of it Chris from Saturday is that is the fewest number of shots that Chelsea have faced in the league this season, just nine from Bournemouth. To put that in, everybody else has had way more, actually, 13 for Brentford, 14 for Holland Fulham, 15 for Brighton, 16 for Arsenal. That shows the difference. Yeah, I'm not getting as carried away as you with Chelsea. I mean, I may be wrong with this. Did Bournemouth now have a better XG than Chelsea? I know, we're always beginning to that. No, I mean, we could have used that and then we're flipping it, aren't we, and saying Chelsea, you know, they're in big trouble if Bournemouth had a better XG than them. I just think they're going to be a great watch this season, Chelsea. But if they want to be serious contenders, which I'm not sure they can be, then, you know, they have to get that balance right going forward. I mean, they're absolutely sensational. At the weekend in truth, you have to question Bournemouth and the way they start to both halves. I mean, I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at half-time in the dressing room where they're two, two down and half-time Bournemouth and they're saying, whatever we do, guys, at the start of the second half, let's not concede early and then they go out within seconds and the game is done. So, I mean, look, the game before the break, they were well beaten by Brentford. So, Chelsea certainly haven't cracked anything. It was, beating Bournemouth, you know, it could have been an awkward game. It has been in the past for them. But it was, yeah, they were working progress. I'm not as convinced with Jordan Henderson as has Andros. I think if, you know, I think he'll play as part of this season. I don't think I think, you know, his time. Why are you as convinced? Because at the moment, this whole section on has Jordan Henderson improved Chelsea, you're kind of very much poo-pooing. Well, because I'm sort of putting other things into the equation like the start that Bournemouth had and how easy it was for Chelsea and Bournemouth made it easy for them. And the fact that I think that Lavia over the piece will probably play have a lot more game time than Jordan Henderson, but there's no doubt Jordan Henderson can play little cameos and the odd game here and there, and he can still impact, but he's not going to be a regular. He covered more distance as well than any other player on the pitch. Yeah, but it's how you, it's how, it's where you run and how you run. Yeah, I know it is, but I'm just saying. It's not just Alan Thompson used to do do doggies with throw-ins and things just to get his numbers up. Okay, right, and I appreciate that really. Well, I'm going to go Alan Thompson. I just, I'm just saying it can be, it can be misleading stuff like that. Also, Alan Thompson sometimes listens, so that would be quite interesting to see what comes back on that. Anyhow, Andrews, you were going to come back in. No, I think even if obviously Lavia's had his fitness issues over the last two or three years and even if Jordan Henderson is not that automatic picking midfield, his influence spreads far beyond the pitch. I mentioned before, I played with someone like Shamish Coleman who, amazing, amazing professional, amazing guy, even when he wasn't playing, even when he was injured or on the bench, he was the most important player in the squad. He was making sure everyone was at it every day. He was calling meetings if things weren't going well. People weren't pulling that way. He was pulling people to the side and having conversations to make sure everyone's on it. He knew the players to put the arm around who to give the kick up the backside. And I see Jordan Henderson as that sort of player with a young squad for his influence to spread beyond what he does on the pitch. So I think it's an amazing sign for them, not just for the two goals he scored on the weekend, but for what he can provide on and off the pitch throughout a long and tough season. Yeah, I think that's right. I think he's there as much for cultural stuff as he is for kind of on pitch stuff, but he's I suppose what he did on Saturday's show that he can he can contribute when needed. I think Chris is totally right, that Lavier and Tassad will be the kind of first choice pair in the midfield. Henderson will play occasionally, and I'm sure he'll come on to see it to help see games out and stuff, but I suppose it's good for him to remind Javier Lonceau that he can kind of play a full 90 or close to it when needed. And also it turns out that he's learned how to say really the free kicks again, which is the wall was terrible though. It's a brilliant free kick. I mean, the ball, who's the ball must wall guy? I mean, we have to be suggesting they've got like a wall coach. Well, everybody has well, yeah, that's what Premier League clubs have now, all this this staff, isn't it? Of course, so you're not giving him credit for the free kick out either. No, I didn't, but they did, and Ross, and Ross was brilliant in a free kick, but they did show him that. It was a slightly, I mean, that's a ridiculous infrastructure, so I don't know how to ignore it, but it is, it is a slightly funny, it's funny trying to try and not analyze Chelsea on in terms of the data, because they store so early in every game that it, that it totally stews everything. So yeah, like Brent, that Bournemouth had had a higher XG, but there were two nil down after three minutes, so it changed and made you look on XG. Should Bournemouth be taking positives from that game? Could they, could Marco Rose have gotten the coach and said, what, do you know what, our XG was good? I think it probably wasn't quite as bad a defeat as five one made it look to an extent, and that's probably true, but at the same time, I would be inclined to do that, you have to pay attention for all 90 of the minutes, Chris, and you can't just give the opposition three dolls to start both halves. What it would actually say to me is that Chelsea still concede relatively high-value chances, even when they have a comfortable lead, which I think shall be a long time, we'll probably be slightly worried about. Let's just move on to the Champions League. I asked ler to take you on Leal in the Champions League tomorrow, and they'll be doing it without Piera and Cappio and Martin Zubimendi, who both picked up injuries after the, the warm down after the game against Leeds on Saturday. I'll tell you said, we had a training session planned after the game for the players that didn't have enough minutes to get everybody in the right rhythm ahead of the recovery day on Sunday, and into very unfortunate actions, we lost two players, not great. I'll come to you, Andrew, say, have you ever been injured in a, in a warm down after that hasn't involved the piece of mechanical equipment, obviously? But have you been, and by the way, several people have pointed this out. Rory suggested earlier that you had a, you had a problem with steamrollers. I would argue, if you'd gone under a steam roller, that would have been a completely different level, level of injury. I think we should all avoid steamrollers. I think we should all avoid, all avoid steamrollers, Rory, to be honest, I think we'd all have a problem there. Any, anyhow. Agreed. Backed. Ever been injured in a, because some of these, you could say warm down, and sometimes people, that must be a little bit of stretching. But if you, if you don't stay behind after a game and see what some teams do, these, these are proper physical sessions, aren't they? Actually, yes. For a lot of the players. And it's not the fact that it's the physical session, it's the fact that some of these players have been sitting down for, for the best part of 90 minutes. And there's no real, so in a normal training session, you have your half an hour pre activation, you have your half an hour warm up, and then you go into your session, so you're properly prepared. But after a game, everything's so fast, it's so rush, there's no time to go through the correct step. So, especially you got, you have a defender who isn't really sent out to warm up, much stiff back, stiff hamstrings, and you go into directly high speed run-ins or, or small-sided gains, possessions, whatever they're doing, injuries are obviously likely to happen. I've seen many, many injuries occur from post-session runs for the sobs, so it's a normal occurrence, and it's obviously it's tough for our Ted to go into massive Champions League games to have his players missing. Not, I don't know if like is the right word. Do you understand why they are done then, you know, so because then it keeps everybody on the same recovery days and sessions, and so forth. I think as a player you don't I don't like it. Nobody likes running after being on the bench and not playing. But you understand that, okay, let's just get it done now. We're here, we're warm, we're changed. And then we can have our recovery tomorrow or have our day off tomorrow. So nobody likes to do it. But if there's a big better purpose, if there's a bigger picture, then you understand you have to do it and you get through it. Obviously they didn't get through it the other day. But yeah, you kind of get it done and move on to the next day. You look quizzical, Rory. Yeah, no, I was, I was, you know, I'm just gonna answer my question. I was just, I wondered whether, does they are relatively new thing, I think, the kind of mass training sessions on the pitch, aren't they? You're such an idiot. And they're not. But I mean, it depends on session they do. I mean, most, most teams after games, there'll be the subs they'll do. They'll do running, whether it's sort of box, box or whatever that is. But you do do that in the 90s. Oh, would you shut up. But I mean, you are, you are winding me up. Close match, did you? Yeah, did you? I mean, no, we all got on the, on the coach and we got crates of booze as like fish in here. Yeah, we definitely that's already beluted. Yeah. And then went to a nightclub after that after the coach. Thanks, Ian. Chris, even in my experience, it's been, no, no, it's been, in all series. There's even my experience of staying behind after games. Obviously, does that tend to be in the press box for longer? It, it feels a lot more elaborate now than it did 15, 20 years ago. Not, not, not elaborate. They just do, you know, they have to have the players who don't pay to do running. What surprised me was the nature of the injuries at the ankle? I think was it, yeah, both of them, yeah, both of them. You're singing now. What, so, I mean, I don't know what they were doing, but it's, as you, as, as, as, um, Andrew Asquire rightly said, it's, you know, it's not called a warm down really, you know, they're physical sessions. It's not how we imagine. It's not, it's not, I'm not even going to go with you, Mark, but it's not a great description of warm down. It's like, you know, that, that gives the impression is, yeah, a couple of, a couple of stretches, touch your toes, and then you go in. It is physical work and, and it is just what's the alternative, you know, for players to, to not, to keep at that level of fitness. So it's a difficult one. Players have to train. So they're at the level when they're, when they're called upon. So that's just unfortunate, and it does happen. Uh, I've never heard beluted before. Oh, that's, uh, is that a word? I don't know. Just like what he made it up. In the early '90s, women's tennis was having a moment. This is a match that will live in the memory of all of us. So he had been too dominant, suddenly along came Monica Sellers. She hit the bar big, she hit two hands off both sides. And just when tennis fans were looking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights, one of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt. Monica Sellers has been stabbed by a spectator. This man stole her story from her. Sports, strangest crimes, tennis's darkest hour. Listen on BBC Sounds. Andros Townsend, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith, with us on the Monday nightclub. Thank you very much to Sean, who has said, "Blooted is a real word. It's a Scottish word for drunk." So Chris was quite, quite right to use it in that context. Are we nod to his experience at Celtic, hey? Well, not necessarily. Yeah, maybe another something I experienced other people do. He's experienced others being blooted. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Sean Thompson? Well, I was going to say… Straight enough, we're going to be a dentist in a few minutes. But first, I mean, it has literally fallen that way, Chris. That's not my fault. It's fallen that way. That's right, yeah. He is in Madrid ahead of Manchester United's away game against Atlético in the Champions League. Full commentary here on Five Live. Michael Carrick has been asked whether he has faith that his players can rise to the challenge of a difficult week ahead. You've got no choice. You've got to be here. That's why we're here. We're here to test ourselves, and that's the great thing about it, you know? That's the opportunity. That's in front of us. If you haven't got that little bit in you, maybe it's a little bit crazy at times. I actually love the challenge and really want to dig deep to find the answers. Then it's not the place for you, believe me. So I've got the utmost trust in the players. I've seen it. I've seen it close quarters. I've seen it during games. I've seen it behind closed doors in and around change rooms when we've had successes and the behaviours to that. And when we maybe we haven't. And I know what the players are feeling and how hungry they are to improve. And it's a big weekend of course. It's two tough games, two important games. But we're hugely looking forward to them. We know we're in a spot at the moment a little bit. Definitely come off right now. So that was Michael Carrick, as I say, in Dennis Imadred for his very calm, isn't he? Yes, good evening, Mark. It's very calm. It was very relaxed. I've got to say the way he spoke tonight didn't strike me as a manager who was feeling the pressure. And I think, I mean, you know, he's got this ability to cut out the outside noise, if you like. But I thought that he answered the questions extremely well when they were talking about, you know, the pressure and all of a sudden the situation that he's facing. And I thought he was, he was very honest in the answers and the challenges that they face. And you heard the answer because that was my, that was the answer to my question. Where I said, but, you know, you've talked about challenges. You've got two trickier way games this week. Well, actually three, if you include Cuomo next week in the Champions League. But this weekend, they're away at Leeds. They've got Atlético Madrid tomorrow, which will be a real difficult test for them. And that was the way they answered it. And I thought it was very upfront. And I think, I think the narrative needs to shift off the manager. I think that the responsibility now is on the players. They're the ones who've delivered this slow start. And they're the ones now who have to repay the faith of that Michael Carrick's clearly got in them. What do you not think players don't get sacked though? Are you into that? Well, no, no, they don't. But I mean, another question to him that was faced today bearing in mind that. I think they've lost five games. Oh, no, they've not won in five games already this season, which is the same amount throughout the whole of his 17 Premier League games last season. And somebody had said to him, why is it that only eight games in after being seen as sort of like that the Saviour from Manchester United, the tables have turned so quickly. And again, Carrick answered that quite honestly. And look, I know how football works. But I do think that the players, the ones who need to take more responsibility on the pitch. Would you not also say the recruitment department? Well, yes, that was also put to a final answer. Is it from Jason Wilcox from time to time? In terms of the left back and the striking areas that weren't reinforced. So that was another question that was posed to him. So I do think that, you know, naturally, it always falls on the manager. But at some point, other people, whether it be the recruitment or the other players, need to take some of the focuses to why Manchester United have had the start that they've had. But their balance, Andrews, just seems all over the place. Yeah, and I think that there's two, they have two major issues. One in possession, one out possession. I think in possession, many not had a crossing team. That my eyes can tell me that and the stats back that up. But when you have a high level crossing team and your striker is on BOMO on Saturday and CUNY in the games before that. And before Shesco's injury, you have a big number nine. Yes, you may not be the best player for Man United, but he is a focal point. And when you're a crossing team to leave that focal point on the bench for a, for a smaller player who's not getting the joy in the box, bemuses me a little bit out of possession. I don't buy into they're not running blah, blah, blah. The players don't, don't want it enough. But I think the way they press is completely wrong. They leave themselves open. They leave that the number six, who was Tanali the other day against Spurs. They leave him way too much time on the ball and you can't leave the best players open on the ball to dictate the game and control possession. Somebody said, somebody said to me on that, Andross, over the weekend, that the problem with that starts with Bruno Fernandez in particular, who does not fit a structured pressing. He, he doesn't fit into it. He does what he wants. And if he's doing what he wants, then Cunya doesn't necessarily follow the structure either. If it's rash red out there, rash red has, has, has out of possession issues in, in inverted commas. And all of a sudden, the midfield that probably doesn't have the legs when it's a man who, and then left exposed, but it's because several of those players can't, can't fit in with the out of possession structure. I completely disagree with the, the Bruno Fernandez one. I think he's one of the few players in that team that does have that structure. He knows out of possession, he needs to join, and Bromo needs to join the striker in being that first line of press. I think it's down when he does jump to the center. I think it's down to those behind him to, to jump as well, Tilemon's, Maynu, Cunya, if it's his side, they need to jump onto a, to Nali or, onto a Bergvau, onto the, two of the, one of the two number sixes that Spurs have. And I don't think that's happened. I think, Bruno Fernandez is doing his job, his job is to join in Bromo and then get pressure on the ball. I don't think those behind him are quick enough to get pressure on the two number six isn't that was ever done against fulham just for international break, full and built up with a three and Mandy Knight just didn't get it right and they just left full and so much space to be able to build up without pressure. But I don't think, I don't lay this one at Bruno Fernandez's door. And a number of questions were actually posed about the way that Bruno Fernandez is under performing tonight. And Michael Carrick stressed that this was not in relation to Bruno Fernandez because he said nobody is guaranteed a place in this Manchester United. It's all about the level of standards, the level of behavior, the level of performance and he stressed that wasn't about Bruno Fernandez. But so I'll be interested to see if that particular answer is spun in the by the rest of the media tomorrow. But certainly the a lot of questions were asked about how Bruno Fernandez is not performing to his usual standards. Enjoy your evening. I'll try to and all I'll say to Chris certain is don't judge me by your standards Chris. I'd be very careful. Ian, how'd you get off the phone? You're going to be in a bit of trouble. What were you looking at, Chris, a call about Rory? No, just Dan, I was kind of throwing the major under the bus and accusing them of preemptively using people of spinning stuff. I think if Carrick has had to specify that he's talking about having to maintain standards, but that's not about Bruno Fernandez. That does raise a question about whether he thinks Bruno Fernandez is performing to the required level at this point. Oh, he's just trying to make a point that he's looking at everybody and doesn't want it sensationalised. Which I would say Ian's point as well, I would demand. Yeah, Michael Carrick is a very good, he's brilliant at handling that pressure, dealing with all the wildfire of being Manchester United manager. But I was at Old Trafford on Saturday and they really weren't very good. That Spurs played them off the path for a while. They were worse than that. They were worse than not very good. Yeah, I'm trying to be nice. Yeah, I mean Spurs were by some distance to better team and then they tied a little bit. They'd been good this season, Rory. Other than the Champions League team, what was they called Sabah? I'll tell you what, Sabah had a couple of chances early on in that game as well. They weren't blistering. I don't know if it was a joke about Sabah on to match the day chapters. You did, you did. I was happy with that. Well, it's not the same when you have to set it again. No, no, I did a little audio thing and it said Sabah Ranks as one of the first players. It's 25 plus two in the morning and it's kept Addross going. Yeah, anyhow, that's being Old Trafford. Sorry, Rory. Yeah, no, I was really struck as you kind of went into it thinking these are the two teams who were probably most grateful for the city verdict to drop in when it did. Because it brought Carrick and Deserby two weeks of not being under intense pressure as everyone was talking about City. And Spurs, you could see it. You could kind of see what Deserby's trying to do for an hour. Whereas United looked just really surprisingly devoid of confidence and purpose and ideas. And they were incredibly passive for quite a lot of it as well which was really surprising at Old Trafford. Against the Spurs team who you would presume was psychologically vulnerable. We had this in actually from David in Northampton, MNC at BBC.co.uk, Andross. He says, do you think people are underestimating the impact of Casamiro leaving in the summer? Along with Fernandez, he was the most important player for them last year in particular in terms of organising the midfield. They're still learning how to get a new midfield to work without a key figure in it. Yeah, and I think similar to what we spoke about Jordan Henderson, Casamiro brings a lot more than just quality on the ball. Like I said, he's always organising. He's there. Number 60 doesn't move. He's that line of security. But you know what, I was really impressed with the sign of Tilliman's. I think Tilliman's is a top quality player and. Is that a slow sound though? Yeah, I know. I was really surprised and I thought especially the way Bruno Fernandez likes to make runs in behind and Tilliman's ability to see those passes, I thought it would be a match made in heaven. But like you said, Chris, it doesn't seem to have worked out as of yet. That was the one I looked at, I think. Yeah, that's a really good sign of the United. That fits in with the way they want to play and to get the best out of their better players. But it doesn't seem to have worked so far. Can he play with me now? I think he can. I think they're both. Man United have control of the game. I think those two are probably two of the better. Number six in the league in terms of having the quality to keep the ball. I think that the problem comes when you don't have possession and you need a Casamiro, you need an enforcer, you need someone to organize the back four and those in front of them to get them back behind the ball. And I think that's the problem they had on the weekend, that's the problem that they've had so far this season. But in the long term, may you not want to control games, especially old traffic, so having those two in front of the back four definitely helps to give them that control. It looks a little bit unsat today. This sounds a bit rudimentary, like Gallagher and Tanali just overrun them. They didn't have. It wasn't to do with kind of control. It was that they didn't have the running power of those two. And I mean, Tanali Gallagher is kind of an extreme case, and Tanali's got a pretty spectacular engine as well. But they just didn't look like they had the. I guess the physical perseverance or something to keep up with that midfield. And I think. Maybe the Labour makes a difference, but that then brings you back onto recruitment, not so much that he's the wrong signing, but he was a late signing. So, why not bring him in earlier? That mean they've been watching him for over a year. And there's a lot. This is true of a lot of signings this summer. Just do it sooner. Gonna talk full of necks on the Monday night club, but before we bring a full of fan in, would it be fair to say, Chris, that I think you think that they've been a little unlucky at times this season? Yeah, I actually thought they were unlucky at the weekend, I mean, I'm sure towards the end of the game are below a must have been sitting there thinking, like, five minutes. This is it. This is the first when, you know, monkey off the back, we're gonna be fine here. And then it was just a couple of minutes of madness, the strike move, it's our brilliant, and then switch off at a free kick. I think Rawry made the point about the Premier League this season, goes a good point, Rawry, you made, actually, about the quality of so many teams in the Premier League. And it's very, very close. We're full of our only, you know, they can win a couple of games and bounce up the table. It's just the optics from full of fans. I wonder because it was Ipswich with respect to Ipswich, a promoted team, and not getting the job done. And, you know, coming back after the international break, that chance to get that first win and not seeing it through, and then he was a little bit. He was a little bit snappy, I think, wasn't he, you know, after the game, Arboloer, which I can understand his frustration. But, yeah, I'll be interested to see what the full and fans says about Arbolo, but performance-wise at Liverpool, they should have been Liverpool away. They should have been Manchester United at home. You know, they had that had enough quality in the game to get over the line, but they weren't ruthless enough. Given you have experienced relegation battles, Andross in the past, would you have shot put that? That was fair, wasn't it? Yeah, fair, but true, yeah. Yeah, would you be panicking yet? Not yet. You don't panic six games in when you have the quality that full of them have. And, like I said, they've played well at times and watched them against Manchester United. They were a bit aside in that game, probably should have won that game. So I don't think you panic six games into the season when you when you have the quality that full of them have. I think it's too early. Jack Collins presents the podcast full of mesh. Are you panicking? A little bit. I think it's there. The truth of the matter. It's trending in that kind of direction right now, right? Like that's probably how it would have it in terms of there have been positive signs. I think Chris made a good point there that, you know, we've been the better side in a couple of these games. And all of those things are true. Equally full of now conceded five goals in the 75th minute or later. And I think in the context of where we are with this season. You know, there are moments are below are supposed to be this guy that came in with the nickname the Spartan. He was supposed to be the man that changed the mentality to put this side going forward. And yet as soon as full and take a lead, we look at this episode came we look at the Manchester United game, even the Liverpool game where full and were a really good side. We've wilted towards the end of those games. You can see the equalizer against Manchester United. We can see two goals here. And yes, it's a really good strike from what's our to to level things up. But also why is Emily Smith road just wandered on to the pitch and refused to close him down when he's been on there for less than a minute. I think that we're looking at this side, the substitutions don't feel right in terms of how he's putting together teams. They're a very strange dichotomies in terms of, you know, we're one they're up. It's a great strike from Ryan says no more on top of the game dominating. And he goes to a 4 4 2, which we haven't played any point this season. He's brought five foot seven Mamie and Helen for shade Charles in the middle of the pitch. And we're completely getting battered from an aerial perspective for the last 10 minutes. You might have a good lead to be seeing. He does have a good lead to be very Chris, but it's not quite the leap the shade Charles has. I mean, so there are actual I mean, there are actual decisions here or players behaviors that are cost you because the temptation is a thing probably if you don't see every minute of every full and game. If you look at a lot of the results, you know, three to home defeat to palace where, you know, I mean a couple of politics. as goals were fortunate to say the least three to home defeat by Chelsea. On the opening day, we talked about the goal of shore and field. Probably should have got more out of Manchester United, going one up at Portman Road as well. You wonder whether it's psychological, whether it's just unlucky. But actually, you can pinpoint specifics in most of those games where you feel the wrong decision was made. Yeah, I think it just feels a little bit like, you know, he doesn't quite know the squad yet. And you'd have hoped really after this amount of games, you'd have more of an idea of what it looked like. I think that, you know, let's take on something as an example. He's obviously coming from Real Madrid. He's someone hugely highly rated. And, you know, we know that his work rate is exceptional. That he gets in behind his movement off the ball is very, very good. But in this game, he is crowded out by two cent halves, one of whom in yesterday, we know very well. And you're thinking, okay, this is probably a time for Rodrigo Munez, who's been okay over the course of this season thus far. Obviously had that kind of purple patch a season half ago where he was supposed to be the guy. And instead of making the change to, you know, keep this in a direction that we know, bringing Kevin in on the left hand side, he brings him one of the right. He goes to these two up top system, which we've seen nothing of. And the entire game plan effectively falls apart. It's not the first time it's happened. And I do think that, you know, there is a reasonable call for patience. But equally, this three game streak where we play all three of the promoted sides in quick succession was supposed to be the kind of make or break moment for him. And now it kind of looks like if he doesn't beat Harla at the cottage on Saturday, and we know how good Harla been to start this, then it could be done and dusted. Chopper's kindly pointed out that I've spent most of my career in a relegation. Now I didn't say that. And when you're not winning football matches, it's hard to have the mentality to score and then to keep pushing, to keep pressing, to try and get the second. So it's natural to then score, I think, right? Let's bank up. Let's be hard to break down. Let's see out the one nil. Do you think once full and get one or two wins behind under their belt, the confidence can grow with the team that you have and the performances you've had this season, especially against United? Do you think you can still have a successful season once you get over that initial period? I think it's a real possibility. The problem with it is is how long do you give him to get those wins? If we don't get wins against Holland commentary in the next two games, I don't think our below is going to be in charge to pick up those wins. I think that the club will panic effectively in terms of not having this three game sequence to deal with. So I take your point. And I think that, you know, it makes sense that at the moment, they're just trying to get over the line in whichever way possible. The problem is that when we're watching it, you're seeing full and seed control in games. You're seeing the way that the team are kind of going about their business. And you know, it was, it felt, I was, I was with a couple of friends. I was in New York this weekend to watch it with a full of New York supporters club. And when it emerged equalized, they basically were like, oh, it's good. There'll be five or six minutes of injury time. And I'm seeing this thing. I don't want five or six minutes of injury time. I want the ref to blow this up full time. So we get a point now this because you can see the way that the traffic is headed. And ultimately that came to pass. But more is kind of the idea that we just seem to invite pressure on and on and on later in games. And this team, which under Marco Silva had the grit and the grind of getting through games, just to the fears to have lost that in a very, very short space of time. You went to New York to watch full of it switch as opposed to switch. Did he? I went to New York to work. I went for an American radio station. But I did watch the full of game was lovely. Most people would prefer to go to New York. Don't. Don't. God. Jack, thank you very much for coming on. Jack Collins was from the podcast. Full of it. On the Monday night. I knew you. I knew where you were going there. Honestly. I'm a big fan of it switch. Yeah. I like it. They're quite, they're quite popular in America in America, a forum because they've got that long list of American players. So they've got a surprise. Maybe a slightly popular. More popular than maybe you measure that to who? Well, well, like, like what? They are more popular than you. Chris Sutton would expect in America. That's that's what I mean. So that, that full of fun. He said the New York full of the board was clever needs. That was just him in a mate wasn't that tens of millions of people. For the last part of the show Corinthians have announced that Clarence Saydorff will be their new head coach. They've had a terrible season. They're one place above the drop zone with eight games to go. They've lost eight league matches in a row. South American football expert Tim Vickery joins us. I mean, is this, is this been the left field appointment to say the least Tim or is there some connection here? Well, it's a it's a marriage of the desperate desperation on both sides. Corinthians were finding it very, very hard to find someone to take this job on. They kept on hearing no from a succession of candidates. And from the point of view of of Saydorff, and if he could only turn back the clock to the end of 2013, he was playing over here in Brazil at the time he was married to a Brazilian. He was playing for Butterfogel. And it was like a childhood fantasy because he was like the boss of everything. The game happened wherever he was. And the opportunity came at the end of 2013 to coach Milan. And he couldn't resist it. So he retired then went to coach Milan imagining that he have exactly the same success as a coach, as he'd had as a player. And he didn't do too bad at Milan, but they sat in very quickly. And nothing's really gone right from him since. So he's been out of of coaching for a while. And he's desperate enough to take this job to try and get a coaching career back on track. Desperate being the right word because of the state of Corinthians. I mean, you know, plenty of managers take a job with a side in a relegation battle. But you you're saying that so many people have said no. And he what I mean, what what mess of Corinthians in that made this such a disastrous job to take? They're a huge team. They're a massive team. They're the biggest club in the biggest city of South America, St. Paulo. And there's always a there's always a kind of chaos around them. I'm sure you find gentlemen know that when it's a big club down there, it can be even worse. The pressures are even greater and it can be like walking through a quick sand. And the club are in a in an absolute mess. When football well organized football, the institution supports the team. Now that seems obvious to you because you will work with the Premier League and that's the way it works. Football that is more precarious, the team has to support the institution. The institution is dependent on results of the team. And that's the situation that Corinthians have got. I've got themselves in. They've had that new stadium built for the 2014 World Cup. They can't afford it. So that that's been a real drain. There's there's there's all sorts of corruption going on with or at least alleged with money from the sponsors. So that they've had a number of changes of leadership of ownership of presidency. And they're in an absolute financial mess. I mean the Starman and this is one of the reasons I think for appointing for going Dutch and appointing Cedoth. The Starman is meant for his to buy. So he's got another dutch dutch. Now they're paying him a fortune which they can't afford. And just a few months back, it was the position of all we're going to give him a new contract. And they kind of decided no, we just can't afford to do it. Well the supporters are going berserk because he's the big idol. And the president wouldn't take the decision on his own. So he had to try and debate with De Paix. Will you, will you waive some of their money that we owe you? And De Paix, it was over a million pounds that De Paix waived in order to get a new contract. And even then that the club couldn't decide. They took it to the kind of wise old owls. They're kind of bored there of wise old owls. And the vote there was equal to someone like four four on whether or not to give him a new contract. And it went through on the president's casting vote. So you can see there's indecision and there's fear. And then they were nearly they're in with a shot of qualifying for the quarterfinals. The semifinals of the semi finals of the Libertadores with Star Champions League. It looked like they were out. Memphis De Paix has a penalty with the last kick it again, the 97th minute, which would put them into a penalty shootout. And he puts it into orbit into Rosez. And they get knocked out. So just everything, everything that could possibly go wrong is going wrong. And that they shot to round that four or five coaches were lined up and said, you know what, even one, but I'm on DS, you know, the DS is the whether strange fellow Oxford a few years ago, but I'm on DS and his son got them out of relegation danger two or three years ago. And even then said that they had a look. And I said, don't really fancy this one. So it's fallen to Clarence to try and try and rebuild a coaching career that hasn't really got out of first gear yet. And it's been made very, very clear clear to him that you cannot be on some kind of purist idealistic crusade. If we win by half a goal to kneel in it, really went in off an elbow, we're having it. So that that has been made very, very clear to him. But I'm playing over here and speaking to people who played with him a bottom four goal. It's not easy, you know, the Dutch often aren't easy. The strengths and weaknesses with the Dutch, the clarity of the vision, but a lack of compromise. And when he was playing with bottom four goal, he wanted to change everything. And he wanted to change the club him. And they're taking very, very seriously over here. The club him of bottom four goal talks about where not going to lose where the big rivals Flamengo, their club him is we're going to win, we're going to win, we're going to win. So Clarence was thinking, well, we've got to change them. We can't just talk about not losing. We want to win. And on a more practical basis, and I have his back fully here, he launched a campaign on the team coach and so on against air conditioning. Now air conditioning is a religion in Brazil. It is turned up to 11. If any elevator you get in, they are moaning about the heat all the time. What is the matter with these people? Go and live, go and live in England. And anyway, so they love air conditioning. And Clarence was apparently saying, but this isn't healthy. Turn it off or at least turn it down, but turn it off and can we open the window? Well, I never did I think I'd be able to provide insight here. And I know Andross is coming in, but I weren't with Clarence at the 2040 World Cup in Brazil. And he would have someone come down and check that the car was the right temperature for him before he then got into it, to then go wherever we were. What are you looking at, Chris? Is that not a bit of hypocrisy then if you want this kind of temperature? Maybe he's still 12, 12 years ago. Maybe he's changed in that time. That was the old fashion fan thing. Does he do the old fashion fan? That's the idea of having somebody check the cars, the right temperature for you before you get in it. I can imagine Chris makes all of his kids do that. Yeah, no. Tim, thank you very much for being with us this evening, Tim Vickery on the Monday night club. Well done Andross, three o'clock in the morning. It is, yeah. Right. Go and get some rest. Thank you. See you soon. Chris Rory as well. I'm Steve Bracknell, assistant manager of Sunday League Power Houses, the Royal Orchestra of CFC. And this season we're aiming for promotion to division D of the Sheffield Sunday Imperial League. We are absolute danta barefoot. In light of the fact we only have 10 players on Sunday, beggars may not be able to be chooses in this occasion. Throughout our 30th year this threat this might be a lowest point. Games gone, the Steve Bracknell podcast. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else and the investigation led by students he's trying to silence. This is world of secrets catching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.