MNC: Man City's charges verdict and England prepare in Prague

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Welcome to the Monday Nightclub, two huge stories with real global impact over the last week or so. You've got Manchester City and 114 of the 115 charges against them being upheld, but you've also got a piece of agricultural machinery running over a player on the pitch. So we'll talk about both those huge stories with very relevant people in Joe Hart and Andrews Townsend, but they've been with us as well. MNC at BBC.co.uk, 080850909693, you couldn't wait to get into Andrews, could you on this? Well, I need to do it off air, because you're not like to swear, but it was what the is going on, Andrews, talk to me. Talk to me about what I'm seeing. I have no idea myself, Joe. I don't know what you want from me. I want to know how you're innocently playing football and someone can run you over, and then everything just carry on like nothing never happened. I'd like to listen a little bit of the aftermath, but I presume Hulk's just picked the thing off you and you've gone with life. Yeah, pretty much. So we were warming up at halftime, Joe, as you do, and I remember running out and thinking, in my long career, I've never seen a pitch roller out at halftime, maybe pre-game, but never halftime, but we kind of got called to warm up and I just kind of forgot about it. I didn't say anything, and the next thing I knew I was literally underneath it. So, yeah, it was pretty mind-blowing. Joe, I mean, joking aside, you were very lucky that you weren't seriously injured. I mean, it went right over your leg. We were saying this last week. I mean, it wasn't like a little brush. I'm sure you had sympathy for me last week when you discussing it. Do you know what, Andrews? I had, I mean, I'm sure the tapes, if we played them back, would prove this, that I was incredibly sympathetic. And I mean, you could probably guess which member of the Monday nightclub maybe had slightly less sympathy, but I mean, it could have all seriousness. It could have done you quite a nasty injury. Oh, 100%. And I got very fortunate. I had some MRI scans a few days ago, and in four places it showed that I had some stress to the muscle, to the tendon to the bones, but thankfully, no structural damage. Only inflammation, only swelling, only bone bruising, no lasting damage, no stress fractures, no ligament damage. So, yes, I wouldn't consider myself lucky having been run over by a pitch roller, but yeah, very fortunate. I was very fortunate there was no lasting damage. Look, look at the two of the desperate to come in with questions. Come on, Pat. Well, number one, right? So, it got one leg. I've watched it again three or four times in slow motion. You got your other leg out of the way. How did you not got the other leg out of the way? That was getting broken. Absolutely. That was mega serious. Yeah, 100%. I think I, again, I've watched it many times. If I don't fall over when I did, if I tried to stay up, if I tried to hold the pitch roller again, leg is snapped. I'm very fortunate that I did fall when I did. It was still, it was still painful, it was still very serious, it was still dangerous, but thankfully, no bones broke and no ligaments damaged. Yeah, my question is, I'd imagine we're going to have a few legal debates later, but where do we stand with this, Andrew? Where does this stand? This one seems a little bit clearer. Yeah, you know what, Joe, the fact that I am okay, the fact that touch with there's no lasting damage, I'm not really looking, I'm not really in Thailand to be going through legal back, back to home. I'm here to enjoy my final few years, Joe. So if I do get back playing after the international break, there's no lasting damage, I'm not looking to continue, continue any legal battles and look to gain anything from it. So we've got Andrews Townsend, Joe Hart, Pat Nevin on the Monday nightclub this evening. We'll hear from Thomas Tuchel a little later on, or totally an on messy as well. Joe persistently keeping going with asking Andrews questions so that we delay the Manchester City chart as long as possible. I mean, there is an element before bringing Joe in part of everybody's talked about it for 72 hours, so there are very few things that can be said now that are slightly different. We haven't heard from many former Manchester City players, I'm admittedly, but it feels like a waiting game, but equally, are you surprised that it has just given you have had various roles within football, that it feels like it's just been left to hang there at the moment? Exactly, because it, well, the news seemed to have leaked out as opposed to given out. So any structure where the either side wanted to deal with is no blown. So they're reacting in the moment. I mean, the PR around is dreadful, from either side, that's for a kickoff. The idea of there's no, not a new thing, you say it, but I'm not convinced about that. I think there have been new things to write and say and think about this consistently. We'll keep on going, because everything you turn over a rock, something else crawls out here under this story. I was thinking about it, I wrote a piece today for the BBC Newsletter, and I was thinking, say if you do kick, let's say worst case scenario, they get kicked out of the leaks, right? You think that's impossible? Glasgow Rangers, down to the fourth tier of Scottish football, not that long ago, right? For what happened with them? Where'd Manchester sit you to then? I mean, really? You think about what would happen? Do you want to hang about there? You'll have certain, definitely certain problems with finances when you get down there, because you can't spend the money. Would you want to hang about? Can you remember that thing called Super League a few years ago? Where have you came to? Is there a king in that? Where are they? I wonder if that would raise its head head again and think, well, we could go in, because remember, nobody thought left golf was going to happen. So everything you think about a weird thought comes in your mind. That's not necessarily a couple of those scenarios, Joe, that Pat has pointed out, have I thought about? But you'd start interviewing someone, I was interviewing a lawyer today about it. And all of a sudden, you think, well, what about that scenario or what could happen if this happens? You know, if Manchester City weren't in the Premier League, for example, then how did the meetings go on amongst Premier League clubs about what should maybe happen with City, if you say, when it comes to compensation, if City aren't in that room anymore, to talk about just one scenario that came to my head when we were talking about it. You as a former player, do you have questions? Me as a former player heard my chairman speak. That's what I've heard. And then I've heard everyone else go down every single rabbit hole, every single wormhole, every single discussion, I've been given free reign to say and do whatever they want about something that hasn't happened, hasn't been proven. So my honest opinion is, I've got no reason not to trust Caldune. He was delivered me good news. He delivered me bad news. He's been excellent with everything that he's done with Manchester City and how he's represented his company and Manchester City in terms of making him. He's not just a flash in the pan, I've talked about the owners before and how they do things, how they like to do things. And I've got nothing but love for the club, nothing but love for him, nothing but respect for him. So I realized it's opened up a kind of worm. And I realized it's opened up all those sorts of conversations and all what ifs and butts and maybes and how and who, but for me, like I say, and if this is not just because it's Manchester City, I'm the same anyway, about anyone. When the speculation in the air, it's just speculation. I know that this one has a little bit more, little bit more meat to it, no doubt about it, but the Premier League haven't said anything. He's been leaped as you said Pat. He's been leaped to what's been said. It's been leaped about how many charges are going to stand. It's been leaped about what the process will be. I've heard nothing concrete. So as much as I'm going to let people do what they want to do and I'm sure some people have fun with it. Some people are serious about. Some people are upset. Some people are happy. But my genuine feeling as me, as a previous player and somebody played in this era by the way, is I'm going to have to let it play out because like I say, it's all very well and good saying what if they go in this division, what if they go in that division, who's who's entitled to this, who's going to jump in and I'm sure if that were the case, that will have to happen. But for me, like I say, someone who I trust and someone who's led me and led the club brilliantly and put them in a really, really good position financially and from a footballing point of view. What he said is enough for me and what he said, you know, I've got it in front of me. The legal process and our determination and respect it means I cannot do that at the moment when he wants to put people's mind at ease. So at the moment, like I say, it's absolutely free-for-all for everyone to say and do what they want. And as I've said before, Chap has this program, you know, the same sort of things and all the phonons. And I can't stop and I don't feel anything about anyone who has an opinion that everyone's free to do what they want. But like I say, I can only come on here and speak from my heart and my truth. Let me, let me, I know I was just going to read a bit of that statement that you said and just give it the full, give it the full word. The Premier League process still has a long way to run. This is from Calderon Amarbara and an open letter, really. The Premier League process still has a long way to run and our confidence and intent improving the club's innocence is just as strong as when this began. There are so many things that I would like to be able to share with you to help you understand why we feel so confident in our position. But the strict confidentiality of the legal process and our determination to respect it means I cannot do that at the moment. If they appeal. People are careful with the ifs. No, no, no, yeah, no, no, because you know, all the assumption is that despite the Premier still not confirming that they've been found guilty of the 114 and the 115 and then the assumption is that they're going to appeal it. So they will, so this will kick, you would assume, kick will come further and further down the road. Are you the kind of individual, which I kind of think I know the answer to this anyhow, but are you the kind of individual that can compartmentalise that then and not even worry yourself with it until a final appeal verdict? Yeah, quite comfortably and the only worry I have is because like I say, a lot of people I care about are involved in this. Me personally, there's no worry for me. I did what I did, I lined up 11v11 and had it out on the pitch, I won some games, lost some games, drew some games and I shook hands and I walked off, got changed and got ready for the next one. So there's no worry for me, there's absolutely zero. I did everything I possibly could, I had some brilliant people, a game people that I trusted, trusted with my life that I worked for when I was asked to do it for Manchester City. And that's the whole point in having these roles and I never had relationships with outside of the management because above that is above my head. I don't understand how football club works, I've not sat down and done one of the degrees that a lot of the boys are doing and good for them in running the clubs and I don't even know what the name of the title is because that is not how my head works and what makes me tick, what makes me tick or did make me tick was being out on the pitch and fighting for my team. And I did that many, many times in Manchester City and I'd do it again, but legally where this whole process stands, you're asking from a former player, like you say, not many have spoken, probably because they haven't been asked, but I can only speak for me. And I only think about this when I think about the close people I have to me who are massively affected by it. When I think about myself, it is what it is, you know, like I say, I left it all out on the pitch, lost, drew one, and here I sit, happy to have a conversation with you and try and understand it as much as I possibly can but without casting judgment until someone has drawn a line under this. Joe, you said that not many players have spoken about it publicly. Have you spoken to any of your former teammates about it behind the scenes? Do you know what? I saw that there was, that was a potential question for tonight and it hasn't even crossed my mind to have a chat with any of the lights. It really hasn't, I don't know about you, Andrews, but like my brain works in mysterious ways, Chapters, as you well know, but anything that I can't affect is not going to give me an ounce of worry. So I'll play golf with a few of the boys or we'll cross paths and we'll probably talk about it, probably think like what have you heard of anything on the inside, but I'm certainly not going to be reaching out to Caldoons saying there's everything on right or anything I can do. You know, he's the boss, he's the main man, he's got many people around him, many people legally strategically who will be able to give him a council and be able to help him through this time because it's not going to be easy for him and I loved how he spoke, I loved the letter because that was from someone who cared about the club, that wasn't a legal statement, everyone listened to me, I'm sure you've had this, I'm sure you've had these conversations just to let you know I'm having him to stay calm, everyone stay calm, everything is in hand and when we're allowed to do it, when we're legally allowed to talk about it, we will. Do you know that a couple of things, what Joe's saying there, completely agree because I've been in the old side of it, but I was running the football club and the last thing I want is my player thinking about that, forget about that, I want you concentrate and that's what you're paid to do and that's it, so the fact that not that many players have talked about it or want to are willing to feel confident sometimes in talking about it, I absolutely don't tell you about that, completely don't tell you about that, so Joe I'm with you, 100% me and I think it's a great way for players to be in this situation, to the point you said before about nothing has been proved yet, you notice we've started every sense with F, I did the phone in the other night, the sexual sex and my first words was that's two big letters here we need to put in, I and F, F and that has to be considered before every single thing that we ever say about this, I actually think the media have been quite good with this because they kind of went hammer and tongs at this before that news leaked out, couldn't have, it's been mentioned before but as if most of the media and understandably have been in the traps and have been held back and held back and held back, but because those words come out, guilty of the charges, and yes we know it as a leak and it may not be true but it likely is, it's got a certain weight, I don't think the media can, I don't think anyone in the media can ignore it, be not considered and worry about what could possibly happen, the footballing side of it, I find, as in from a footballers perspective I find quite interesting here because Andros you have played against Manchester City during this period that is investigated and people, and I've included myself in actually these questions sometimes, you know, if a player missed out on Champions League qualification because they finished behind Manchester City and if Manchester City, I found to have broken the rules, bearing in mind the incentives that can be in a player's contract, they will they have missed out on money and so on and so forth, so did they then look at it from a legal point of view, but then I've had some players say to me, yeah but a lot of what's happened has gone on, or if it has happened, has gone on boardroom, exec, business level, if you've gone toe to toe with the 11 players on the pitch, you haven't, you haven't been cheated in inverted commas on the pitch, it's not like City for several seasons managed to sneak on a 12th player for the whole time, and that was what this form of professional was trying to explain to me. I agree and I'm of a similar mindset, but you have to imagine if players have got clauses in their contract which is worth millions, then you understand why these guys are coming out and saying we should get this or they should get this, but I, Joe mentioned it early as a player, 11v11 on the pitch, if Man City beat us 3 or 4 years ago, then the 11 players on the pitch beat us 3 or 4 years ago, so I'm of that mindset, but I understand when we're talking about, we're talking about millions here, so I understand why former players are coming out and trying to question where they stand now, so yeah, it's understandable. We're going to bring James Hongcastle from Farvela's Eurolead and also the athletic, not because we're going to say this is going to happen to Manchester City, but Serie A over the years has had the various issues of taking points off teams, relegating them, stripping them of titles, Juventus have been in the forefront of those punishments, and I suppose what the aftermath of that is, and who views who was the champions if somebody stripped of a title, not James, I just want to start, because Roberto Mancini's back in charge of Italy for the second time, and a bit like Roger, when Roger was on Spain duty, he was asked about everything around Manchester City, he went back to the double contract referenced, didn't he? He did, I mean, that was a question put to him by a Turkish journalist last night in Bursa, and he said it was a leading question, it was like this double contract is part of the investigation, so that's why he used the terminology double contract, but he didn't deny it, and he said, look, this is nothing new, it comes up every four or five years, because we all know, this has been going on for eight years now, and he said it's a problem for the club and not for him, doesn't concern him, but as far as he was concerned, Manchester City are not guilty, so that's Mancini's position on this, I think for him, this is a story that goes back a long, long time, he was sacked by Mancini in 2013, so with 13 years afterwards, you can imagine why he was a little bit surprised, I'm not entirely surprised to be asked the question, but why this keeps coming up? I mean, it does highlight how long this has been going on, what you would say is, as well, just on him, before we look at Serie A in general, and how they've dealt with punishments is, he's always been. consistent with what he said, hasn't he? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this story about this alleged consultancy with Al Jazeera, a small club in Abu Dhabi. I mean, this came out when Ruri Pinto, the whistleblower, Hacker, who got access to all these documents and they were leaked to the Spiegel, the Joan magazine, and some other magazines. It was kind of an Italian supplement on a weekend called Lispresso and they wrote up this story about how it's alleged Mancini was paid by Man City One figure and then paid by Al Jazeera, another figure. So he's been challenged on this and confronted about it since that story came out in, I think it was 2018. So, I wouldn't say to him it's kind of water under the bridge because, as he says, it keeps coming up every few years but he certainly didn't seem concerned by it last night chapters. Let's talk about punishment in Italy and when they've handed, been handed down and look, we're not at this stage saying this is the punishment that will come Manchester City's way but obviously, you've been to San Celciopoli and that scandal, they were relegated out of the top flight and they were stripped of titles. We're going back 20 years, aren't we, to when this happened. What were the key facts then and what in the subsequent years, how was it viewed with the titles being taken off them? Not very good. I mean, this is one of the most poisonous, I think it is the most poisonous case in the history of Italian football. I don't think it's ever been the same since. To your first question chapters, I think a lot of people misunderstand the scandal. They think it's a match fixing scandal but no referees were ever paid, nothing of the sort ever happened. This is essentially about a network of power at the top of the game in Italy, which came to focus in some respect around the event as his former general manager. I could look at a modji who was banned for life after this scandal, although I was at Juventus Mieland the other week and he was there. I still welcome at the club. And I think that tells you a lot about what the event is, think about this scandal. So in terms of the power and control chapters, it was to do with yes referees but not in the way you might think it was sort of calling up the referee designator as executives of other teams did leading up to games saying who's refereeing us this week? And just like fans up and down our country, they seem to think there's some referees that referee badly against them. I mean, that was the case initially. Well, we don't want that guy refereeing against us. So please don't do that. Modji's son had an agency which had about 140 coaches and players on the books, which you know, it would allow you maybe to, it was alleged to sort of control other teams or have friendly teams. And also just being a kind of TV personality. So, you know, as we have in a sort of player as executives who go on TV shows, it would be kind of calling up the producers of those shows and say and saying, what's on the agenda tonight? Let's not talk about that or why are you showing that decision? You shouldn't be showing that decision. That's stupid. You should be putting the spotlight on this. So it was all about creating an environment, which I suppose gave your team the best chance of success. Now, the big difference with Caltropoli and this case between the Premier League and Manchester City is that this case between the Premier League and Manchester City has lasted eight years. And Ferran Soriano has just been speaking at the EFC European Football Club Summit in Copenhagen and sources have been saying that he's been telling the other chairmen that it's taken eight years to get to this point. There are many, many more years to run in this. I mean, with Caltropoli, the sporting trial of Caltropoli was done over one summer, you know, the summer in which Italy won the World Cup in 2006. So there was a sporting trial and then there was a criminal trial. And the sporting trial is the one that relegated the event as points deductions in the second division of points deductions against AC Milan and some other clubs, Lazio Regina as well. The criminal trial didn't end until 2010. And finally, that second question about titles being revoked, Chapas. I mean, two were revoked, 0405 and 0506. 0405 was left unassigned. 0506 was given to Inter. And that is the most poisonous thing that has, I think, ever happened in Italian football because it led particularly after the criminal trial ended. It led people to look at the sporting trial and say you rush the judgment in that case. It was unfair and Inter should never have been given that title. The kind of reason it was given to Inter was because at UEFA neither the champion to be the top seed in the Champions League. And, you know, events have competed in the Champions League. That season, even though 0405 had been on the side because, yeah, the season was still going on. But that, that, the time for football is never recovered from that Chapas. Okay, let me read you some of what people have said. But Alex and Chester, no one's questioning the integrity of the players. No one's doubting they deserve the glory in those games. But those players would not be playing together in that team if these rules have been broken. It's tank at the time and it stinks now. And Simon on email on a similar point. Why is nobody mentioning that if proved guilty, city fans would never have had the aguero moment or other moments as they cheated the system to afford the best players and the best managers. It's simple. There can be no sympathy if proven guilty. And John, although I don't think we did this bit to be fair, I can understand people seeing it in certain ways. But he said, you keep banging on about how Manchester City have done nothing wrong with actually zero evidence for that. I don't think we said that. I just said that we haven't actually been given confirmation. Everybody is reporting it. But nobody has actually confirmed it was what we were trying to point out with the F point. He goes on to say, but seriously, what about Liverpool and the other teams that have missed out on trophies and championships? They did nothing wrong either. If City had followed the rules as apparently they did not do, those teams and the players for those teams would have achieved more. How about you feel sorry for them? Is that an if-go or do you understand the feeling sorry for them? Like I say, Chapters, I'm obviously being. I know I'm being careful in my words, but I've got to be. Because I'm representing here and I'm representing from a point of view that I'm not here to tell anyone they're wrong. All those opinions that you've said there, they're perfectly within their reason and within their rights to feel that way. And anyone who will dig deep, like I'm saying James, is the kind of person that would go real deep into legalities and have an opinion and some people just see things and just throw things at it. No one's right, no one's wrong at the moment because like I say nothing's finished, nothing's final. And all those points that you make, you can make a million of them about a million things a day. And I'm not going to start throwing things around because it's absolutely pointless. But like I say, I can only come on here and talk from my point of view, from my perspective of what's gone on. And with the people that I've worked with and the people that I shoulder's arms is when it came to being on the pitch. Or off the pitch with the little bit of communication that I had with the hierarchy. Because as I say, that's not how I live my football career. Like I say, all these guys writing in and people are angry, no doubt. Emotions run high. And like I say, I don't know what place you're in, where you're reading it from, or what sort of feelings you've got towards it in terms of it has your club been wronged or how your club could have benefited. If this is the case, or sorry not benefit, if it was proven. But I just can't sit on here and talk from any other perspective other than what the main man said for me and how I feel about the football club. Fall flavors are waiting for you at Whole Foods Market, cosy picks all through the store like Maple Leaf Cookies from 365 brand. Swing by the bakery for pumpkin cheesecake, here for a limited time and pumpkin turmeric bread freshly baked every single day. Sip the season with 365 brand cinnamon spice coffee and pumpkin spice creamer while you still can spice up fall at Whole Foods Market. It's late 2007 and while attending a Christmas party, Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg meets a woman who would change the course of his company forever. She joined Facebook as Chief of Operations in 2008 and has been credited for making the company profitable. And herself enormously rich. In the early '90s, women's tennis was having a moment. This is a match that will live in the memory of all of us. She had been so dominant, suddenly along came Monica Sellers, she hit the bar big, she hit two hands off both sides. And just when tennis fans were looking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights. of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt. Monica Celeste has been stabbed by a spectator. This man stole her story from her. Sports strangest crimes. Tennis's darkest hour. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman on the football daily podcast. Scotland against Switzerland is in the nation's league tomorrow night on sports. Extra England are in Prague taking on Czech Republic on five live. Thomas Tuchel now on whether he thinks after the defeat to Spain, England have to win tomorrow. We did a review on Sunday morning and take the review actually as a preview at the same time because we had a lot of positives to take from the from the Spain game and just want to reproduce a lot of it tomorrow here. Are you, yeah, we've had a lot of talk about how many changes you might make over these matches. What's the current thought? Hopefully not too many. My mind is not on changes. My mind is on winning and on giving the players the trust. And I saw a good performance of performance wise. There's no need to change. Ideally we would start with the same team, but as you saw two players are already in doubt and some had really, really high individual physical outputs. So we will take care about these players, we'll take it into consideration, but it's not very likely that we will see six, seven, eight changes tomorrow. It seems to have been a big point of discussion. Yet surely normally players would be playing Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday. So it's no different with England. Exactly. I see no difference, so why would we, if this would be a Premier League, Champions League week, players would play Saturday, Tuesday. So why would they not do it with us? With the goalkeeper, the message coming out on Saturday was that Jordan Pickford remains England's number one. That's correct, yeah? Yeah, if you want to, if you need to give the status a name, yeah. Of course there's no need to take the shirt away from him at the moment, but there's, I think, a little bit of a need of a competition, because he plays for so many years and James Draftford had a good start to the season. Dean Henderson had a good start to the season. Dino got the match against France. We need just to see also in this position, not only with outfield players. We need to see what the players are capable of and for that we have to see them under stress and under pressure. And that's why Troph gets two matches and then pick us as back and goal. And it seems possible that you have to, you might have to make changes at the back. Yeah, of course, two players are already in doubt and some players had big physical outputs. So we will have a late review later in the evening and then decide maybe tomorrow morning the final positions. Obviously you've set out to win every match that you play. Having lost the first one at Wembley, are you, you know, realistically? Are you thinking to achieve the target that you want in this group to win the group? You might well have to win the next four and then see where you are. Would be ideal to win the next four, but right on the next four, the next five. So it's six matches. We lost the first one, cannot change it. We would try everything to win tomorrow. It just got the question if it's a must win. It's not yet. It's too early for that. But yeah, ideally we put three points on our record. It's just like it's League 1 and Nations League. It will not be easy. We have to just need to respect the opponent and the quality and the stadium and the occasion and then anything can happen in football. You just don't know. We cannot now come in and say it's only a win. And I don't know, maybe we have early yellow red card, early red card or whatever. So you just need to need to adapt what's coming. So we're here to win. We will try everything, whatever happens. Good luck, Thomas. Thank you. Thomas SQL on the defeat to Spain and what England have to do to win tomorrow and also what's going on with the goalkeeping situation. The thing is, I wonder, Andros, when international breaks are longer and you have four games and these aren't qualifiers in different people have different opinions on the Nations League, I suppose it does allow managers to experiment more and then opens up more questions. I think Thomas SQL needs to see 25-26 players how they can fare against the best. It's all well and good doing it against no disrespect to Czech Republic. But he needs to see them against Spain. He needs to see how James Trafford can handle playing out from the back, for example, against Spain and being the extra man for England in the initial build-up phase. So I think that was an important one for Thomas SQL to see James Trafford potentially for moving forward into the next year as can he be that number one? Can he take over from Jordan Pickford? Pat, what are your thoughts? Again, being Scottish, just a bit jealous, so I have a lot of players that are very, very good and there is a lot of naval guys and the fact that you just get beat by a brilliant side with some absolutely brilliant players as well. And yeah, you can see where they were some weaknesses. I mean, obviously I was in Slovenia so I didn't see the whole game so I watched the highlights as much as I possibly could, but you look through the squad in England, I've got there. And you can actually overthink it sometimes. I mean, it's said to be against the Spanish. Everybody in the world's getting beat, we're anxious now. And you look at all the other games England have played. In the last game against the French, okay, six, four, weird game, never seen like it again, but you know, and they didn't play their full team in the first half. But to be honest, England had a pretty good world cup for that. But I suppose England would say, well, we need to do that, make that final step. We need to get there. When it wins something, I understand that. That's why you brought Thomas to Berlin. I kind of like the way his reaction is, he's trying to calm everything down. With the, he means chat seems, he seems like he's talking to your mate down the pub, doesn't he? Yeah. When he was having that chat there, it's easy to say, look, people, don't panic. This is not the time to do it. We're still learning the things. We're still getting the things together here for the next group that's going to go forward. So I must admit, I'm not how we're enjoying the panic stations quite yet, just because you're doing things. No, I'm not. And that's the bit I find a bit odd, Andros, at the moment, is even in the buildup to this, there became this massive thing about footballing culture. And I know, Anticordan was told, you know, spoke about it beforehand, and Tom's Tuchel has talked about England's DNA about controlling possession, and that isn't what England do compared to Spain. It's almost as if there's been this real kind of soul-searching and deep dive off the back of one, the last half hour against Argentina, and two, the next opponents, being Spain. I think there always has to be in this country for as long as I can remember, there always has to be like a post-mortem after a major tournament to see and how can England get to the next level. But I think on this occasion, there's no level to get to. We're there. We're five minutes away from a World Cup final two years ago. We're in a Euro's final. We're there. It's just that it's just now, it's just that the final bit that you cannot teach is the final bit that it took Arsenal years to try and get over the line. That's just the final bit. Now there's no, how do we produce this player? How do we produce that? Play, how do we play like Spain? Because we match Spain for most of that game. For the first 65 minutes, we match Spain. We press Spain all over the pitch. It was amazing to see how aggressive we were. Cons are gay. He really tracking those Spanish number 10s all the way every time they tried to drop off. We were there and we forced him into so many turnovers. It's just that last bit. It's just that last bit getting over the line in the major tournaments. Can we beat Spain in a nation's league game in September? I mean, did you feel this when you when you were in England comes? What is this obsession with? And I think Anthony Gordon said it, didn't he? We can't keep looking at other countries and trying to be like them. We have our own strengths, which they don't have. This constant. And I agree with that. And I again, I bring up Arsenal. Michel Arte, he didn't go from Man City to Arsenal. I'm going to copy exactly what Man City do to a tee because you're never going to copy Man City and beat Man City at what they do because they're the best at it. What he did, he took parts of what he learned from Pep Guardiola and he took Arsenal to the next level through set pieces. Can I be more aggressive? Can I get the ball in the box? Can I focus more on set pieces? And that's why they won the title because the set pieces gave them the edge over Man City as opposed to their tiki-taka style of play. And I look at England, England never going to go toe-to-toe with Spain and out possession them and tiki-taka them, get it through the lines. Yes, we will do that, but our strengths are pace. We are quicker than Spain. We are stronger than Spain. We are more fitter than Spain. So after take parts of what Spain do, but also apply ourselves. We got Rashford. We got Gordon. We got Sakko. We We've got so many quick, aggressive players who showed the other night how effective they can be. So we have to stop getting so fixated on what Spain do and focus on what we can do. They're also a couple of interesting things on the Spanish culture and how they built up the team that they did. And we had a program on it on Wednesday night when Rafa Benitez and Guillem Balagay, amongst others, would guess on it. We also say as Bill Aquettor on it as well. He told about how they found their identity at a young age. But feeling I had since I started age 15 in Jav teams, we were all coming from different cultures of playing football and to the senior team. When you come to the national team, I think you put everything aside. And yes, you play big games against friends, but in the national team you share a lot of time together, but then when you have the competitive league or Cup game, then you forget about that and you are together in the national team fighting for their friends' time target. So do you think you therefore feel it is important that that was put in from such an early age, from when you were there with under 15? Yeah, but it's very important. And I think that mix of cultures, of way of learning football brings a lot of different qualities to the team and at the end the team benefits from that. And normally, let's say, up north, we are more defenders, we are more tough, less skillful. You know, the more in the south you have the talented players, they can triple, they can do different stuff. So all together is a great mix. What I found quite interesting in that, as well Pat, on the whole culture side, was people will look at football and football skills and we talked about it earlier. But actually one of the things that came through in that was a mentality and a belief and actually how important the players from the Basque region were in their mentality and in fact it went even back to when Barcelona, when Kroif was at Barcelona and he wanted a couple of players to be at Barcelona because of their mentality and attitude. Yeah, I mean the whole history of what Kroif did, I think history of football comes basically from Kroif from 1970 just for all the line and it goes straight to Peckwater and everything in between it. It's been successful, it was generally between in that line. But within it all, it always changed, it always adapted. They always had to get other bits that were missing and if they had to look to the north of the country, so I think I'll try to find them out, obviously I watched as Peckwater for years and years and years, didn't it Chelsea? And it was such a British player, it was unbelievably British player. You know, Andrew, you'll know this really well, I used to do this thing where I watched certain defenders and one of the best things I did to defend it could do for his playing against me was get low, really low. So if you ever get a chance going, just Google a picture of him playing football. He's so low, he's crouching, he's like, he looks like a crab because he can move because he's like an old-skilled, he's got Kenny Sanson, he's very best. That type of brilliant, brilliant defender, so it's very British. So what they've done is we get the best of all worlds they can get, that's what he's basically saying. Yeah, we'll pick the ones from that part, the ones from this part, there isn't necessarily our Spanish way. No. You'll get the best of everything and use it all. And also what they have, Joe, is they have a system. So one of the things that they did there, and I'm not, you know, this happened back in the day, I'm not saying it happens now, but they made sure that those players moved through the age groups from under 14, under 15 all the way through. So that actual club rivalries, which are obviously huge in Spain with Barcelona around Madrid, never became a thing because you're still in that age group as you progress through each level and then into the senior team. Yeah, and obviously they had that brilliant period, didn't they, where it all came to fruition because Spanish football struggled for so long and, you know, Pat talked about the kind of David Silver's of this world and that team that took over and it really feels like they're in that stage again because they've had to regroup, of course they've had to regroup because they had those brilliant moments. So there's shows they've got real good brains behind the scenes and they've got people who know a way and know a way that they can buy into as a Spanish footballer and I think just as an identity as an Englishman, as an English team, at the moment it's not easy and it's something that can be discussed, but I think it's not easy because we've got so much talent, we've got so many different players that can do so many different things on such a strong level. So yeah, it's not easy as proven but we're getting close, we're getting so close, you know, semi-finals, finals, it's coming. You talked about being in Slovenia for Scotland's goalless draw, Pat, how would you define where Scotland are at under their new man? Very intriguing indeed. So a lot of changes since David Clarke left, it's going to be a different outlook style. Steve is very secure, very safe, the way he played, really intelligent when he made changes, they were clever and he got Scotland to three out of the four championships that he went for, which we hadn't done for generations. So brilliant him, however the fans would do something wee bit more front-footed and we watched the first half and think, is this it, it was terrible, it was awful, so disjointed, a real mess. I think half you seen a lot of that and what was intriguing, there was a lot of different new players there and there's nothing more exciting about then, you know, seeing a team that's adapting and you, I don't know a lot of the, I mean I've watched a lot of football, the Scottish football and Scottish players, I had never seen Robbie you were playing and he was playing up front for Scotland and international game, Stephen Welsh had seen before but hadn't played much, Mick Barney back in the squad for quite, it had been out for quite some time but it was the fact that there were in the second half that became incredibly positive, they played constantly in front of it, they got a no-no away in Slovenia which sounds rubbish, right, but that's a fact, it's great fun, I loved it and getting the best of it that likes to be in Ganondorf, you know, when he came on it was really good and maybe more than anyone else, Billy Gellmar moved on in a different position and I came closer to an 8 or a 10 position instead of a 6 and honestly it's a joy to watch, it's really worth fantastic, so there's a little bits to get excited about but it was Slovenia and New England very good, Pat but just on that I think that's a real positive as a new manager, you know, it's all very well and good training sessions and going into the game with the positive conversations and mindset, but then when the whistle goes you can kind of go to type and little maybe that kind of mentality of it's a stay tight, it's important that you get a result on the road, but I think the positive from what you've said there is, that's a manager doubling down a half time, very much like under my experience with Angeposticoglu, very early on in his reign, it was very much, we did all these expressive and expansive things on the training field but when the game came we all of our kind of game management came into it, a little bit of caution away from home and then the amount of half, it only took two or three, it really took two or three, are you winding me up, we've just done a week's training for you to go out and do that, do what you want to do on the pitch, this is what we train, this is what you believe in and trust me, I'm going to back you, that's that message that I'm here and there, so that's a positive at least in terms of a mindset of how he wants his Scottish team to play. Well, cross it there was a moment in the game, it was about ten minutes in and we knew that the Slovenians put a very specific system and they always played two up front, you know, a very brave two up front and then a ten minutes in you realise, no they're not, they're playing three really high up top who didn't go back and you're playing a three at the back, so what do you do then, do you say to one of your wing backs, oh come back and cover, just as you're saying Joe, just as you're saying, 90% of managers away from home, international game, probably your first game as well, they bought it don't they, they're just going on all, let's be a bit secure here, none of that at all, absolutely none of that at all, he said fair enough, you'll even three up, we'll be free back, we'll go for you, we'll have a go, we'll slug it, we'll slug it out and whether it was clever, because you ask a Celtic fan, they'll tell you why not attitude towards a plastic ogle and you ask a sports fan, they'll tell you something else, right, exactly, totally the opposite, right, and that's why although I was interested and excited and enjoyed it and Scotland gets 17 shots to three away from home, which is great, we're playing against Switzerland tomorrow night, that's going to be much much harder, and there are certain teams, if you go three V3 at the bank, you're playing against Saka, you know, Kane and Anthony Gordon, I don't care how brave you are, that's just, don't do that, so I'm intrigued to see where it goes after this, can I just bring you back to what you talked about Robbie Eur then, and having not really, and you want to watch a lot of football and having not really seen him, and I'm just sort of looking through his career here and, you know, a couple of games for Rangers in the early part of this decade, and then he's, you know, gone to Belgium and Sweden, he's at Sevilla now, he was in the age group around the under 19s, would you have even been mentioned before Pocken only took over? He was known a bit and I talked to Clarky about this. um he was known about but at that point in time he hadn't had the big move to severe remember that it had a good season in an average league you know but if he was going to bring someone like that and he's going to leave one of the players out there he'd got them there in the first place and I thought he felt that was a difficult thing there's some people who would have done that some managers would have done that but Stevie Clark had a group together and his team spirit and he was very very loyal to those people but when you've got new manager world cups over you've got to reset you've got to restart you've got to chance to look at things again so I was delighted to see you're playing you've got a really interesting background that you mentioned there he left Rangers I don't think Rangers left him right he left Rangers as a young star and thought I'm not going to get game time there's not a pathway from me here that's big that's brave to go and do that he wanted games and this gets back to what we're talking about the build we've got a real problem Scotland all the best young players end up at some of the biggest clubs right there's no pathway through because the biggest clubs are going to go in by top players or top players but very decent players and finished articles from elsewhere and this is no different again back to my win career as a kid I was with Celtics a kid at 16 no way through right and I stopped now and studied and things like that but then I got partying football we played see by the time I was 20 I'd done a hundred games for a Scotland Scotty football and a hundred games in English football see the kids that I left behind going they would have had to meet up apparently they won't know because I'd go and play football and this is what the boy you're done and this is what Scotland players this is a problem we need to fix I just want to end on messy who's final international game for Argentina is on October the 6th again's been in I'll give you the I'll give you the stats 207 caps 125 goals and 60 assists most world cup appearances in history 34 most match wins at a world cup 23 only player to have started three world cup finals 2014 2022 2026 but with Pat and Ross and Joe what I'm interested in if if you were 20 and the great Argentinian playmaker hope of the coming 10 years would you take the number 10 shirt when messy retires Joe I think that's the case where he's going to have to give the shirt to someone like in a sort of ceremonial yet I think he's going to have to give the nod to the next because it might not be every game the next five people that wear it they're going to have to go through him I really do and that might that might be extreme but unless you've got someone with ridiculous confidence you're going to need the nod from the main man I think you are actually it's a bit and sometimes that happens quite often in the NFL and Ross if someone joins a team that has a legendary shirt number if that shirt number hasn't been retired they quite often ask the the legendary player that warn it that it's warning if they're okay to wear admittedly there are probably more choices you know that but it has because it does become a big thing doesn't it no it does and Joe's hit the nail on the head it you have to come from messy you can't just like I said unless there's a marathon that comes through like a messy like a marathon there's one straight off the bat again I think it has to come from messy has to be messy's chosen one as opposed to someone said no I want the number 10 so yeah be interested and see who does pick that what I quite like part and with all due respect to those that came in between it's maradona's turn and messy's turn there were plenty of you wore it in between oh yeah the rekelme is not that there's a whole bunch you could name they were going to be the number 10s I don't think I built a lack of people that want it you would love to be the one that actually had it on your bike yeah it's a heavy old shot but you would still want it and reality what you should do get something totally different put somebody totally different give it to a man this give it to somebody who's not going to be that player and you say right you're a different player it's a different thing don't put any pressure on anybody and it could go yes it is messy shut but it's also as you say it's maradona shut as well so you know take the pressure off a few possible give it a full back that's what to do give it a right you can't have an Argentinian right back wearing 10 you just cannot carry it well but that's the point if if you want to put loads and loads of pressure on it nobody wants pressure then don't give somebody who doesn't give it to somebody pressure who either he doesn't want to and be will play worse with it then give it to somebody it's obviously not a it's a almost a ridiculous thing I know I haven't said that you won't sell so many shirts well I know you won't win the enough and have you said that even though it is his farewell game the World Cup Joe feels like it feels like that was his farewell doesn't it probably doesn't have Argentinians or messic because they have this coming up but but for the wider football in community the World Cup was the farewell yeah I think so but I to totally get it and we have in these conversations it seems like you know you it's not just the end of some number 10's career this is this is the number 10 of I've certainly certainly my generation in how he's taken on World Football and how he's played the game so I think you've just got to understand sometimes that when it comes to a play like you know you talk about Maradona I can't talk about Maradona I don't know the Maradona that you guys are talking about there but I understand how very much was you and you very much were me in how I'm talking about Messi so I get it but I just think the way that he's leaving the game he's not been asked to leave he's leaving it on his own accord gracefully having thrown down at the World Cup in front of all of our eyes and starred I think if anyone deserves a little home homecoming and a little stand-in innovation it's the main main right we will end it there Joe Pat and Ross thank you very much for being on the Monday night club this evening so tomorrow you do get the Scotland and the England game Scotland are on sports extra England with John Murray and Paul Roberts and Tape Young check here then that will be on five live this is the football story of the century it's pandemonium it's sex to say it's an authoritarian regime for the past 15 years English football has been dominated by Manchester City they are champions again but not only that they won it four years running and no one's done that ever then the Premier League dropped a bombshell the Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than a hundred breaches of its financial rules following a four-year 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