MNC: Brentford, Brighton & the silent treatment

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Fall flavors are waiting for you at Whole Foods Market. Cozy picks all through the store, like maple leaf cookies from 365 brand. Swing by the bakery for pumpkin cheesecake, here for a limited time, and pumpkin turmeric bread freshly baked every single day. Sip the season with 365 brand cinnamon spice coffee and pumpkin spice creamer, while you still can spice up fall at Whole Foods Market. This is Matt Rogers from Lost Cultureistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Cultureistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We've been talking about Kupy Mayo for a minute now, and wow! So many of you already love this stuff! And if you're thinking, wait, what is Kupy? Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise, the one with the red cap. What makes it different? Egg yolks. Kupy is made with egg yolks only, giving it this rich, umami flavor that elevates to everything. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it, where chefs work, of course. Food and flavor lovers use it. You haven't tried it yet? Well, find the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. Why don't you? Kupy. The original Japanese mayonnaise. Kupy! Welcome to the Monday Nightclub, Roy Smith, Chris Sutton and Nadia Manua are all with us. If there was a member of the Monday Nightclub community who I thought might be targeted by a groundsman on a pit troll, where it wasn't Amdross, but anybody ever driven the lawnmower out of you, Chris? Um, a taxi in Glasgow, but not even on lawnmower. Yeah, that's actually quite serious, is that? Yeah, we had done a lot of laughing, but yeah. Yeah, but the Chelsea groundsman, yeah, I mean, he may have had the nod to have a go, but there was some watch, wasn't it? It was. It made Andross the surviving down, I mean, that was nuts. He thought it was targeted. It wasn't, well, for legal reasons, I don't think we can say that it was. I've very much doubted it was, it did look out of control. Should we go there? You're meant to be the journalist, Roy. You're meant to be the one that helped me with slightly legal issues. Just so that if I was Andross, I'd take it personally. Do we know that he's okay? Yes. Yes, he is. Yeah, he is. And, um, but I mean, actually, when you see it, and Nadia came in telling me he can't stop watching it, um, he does do, he's quite lucky, because that roller does go over his leg. Yeah, to be honest, I'm, um, not to be conspiratorial, but what is the value of that roller if he can't even crush somebody's leg? What's going on? Yeah. I've, I've missed something here. I thought this is catastrophic, but is that no, he's fine. What does that thing actually do? Is that a lint roller, just going on? An inflatable roller. Yeah, yeah, questions need to be asked. Anyhow, the idea of that bit was to wish Andross our best, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure at the end of that 90sack, because we really have. Uh, we'll look at what's getting on in the international break with players pulling out here there, and everywhere we'll look at how the youth system operates in this country and across Europe, but we're going to start with positivity, because you were very keen, Rory. I'm going to start with you. You were very keen to do Brighton and Brentford together tonight for the first 25 minutes or so. Both winning three now over the weekend, you could argue against teams at rather different stages of their development. Yeah, it felt very much like it was Brentford and Brighton's weekend. The performance is not just the fact that they won, but the fact that they both won so well. And it just struck me, those two lines are quite striking anyway, but it struck me the fact that, you know, it's the five games in, start the international break, it feels like the first little chapter of the Premier League is over. And they're probably two of only a handful of teams were relatively happy with the way the season started. And it's at this time of the year, chapters that I think generally, once the season for the last three or four years, I've thought I bet Brighton could get in the Champions League. And I normally come on the radio and say it and then regret it for quite a long time. Did you say it? I'm not sure you said it last year, did you? I think I may be trying to take a year off. Sometimes you have to let the field lie fallow. Okay. You've got to, you've got the promises all the way there. You see Chris is nodding. No, and I think it's interesting that they do look, you know, from the evidence of the first five games, the, some, some members of the traditional big sets don't look as strong as they might. Brentford and Brighton look really well set in different ways. And I'm interested in why the likelihood is that they won't both be able to push for the top four. I think they could, but it intrigues me what happens between now and May that stops them. I think from my perspective with those two, we're kind of judging them based on how they performed against two of the bigger sides of such in the league. But I think for some of the teams that do qualify for the Champions League at the end of the season, it's how they do against everybody else. And I think for those sides, the only thing that sort of hold me back a little bit is Brentford on Friday. I can't really fancy them to beat Chelsea, but Chelsea haven't really shown anything from a, especially from a defensive standpoint, which made me think that a trip to arrival in Brentford, a local derby would be a game that would suit them. But they asked them once in a while for them to score three goals, but then you look at the three goals, that's really good goals. But I just think again, from a Champions League standpoint, it tends to be around 65 points that gets you into the Champions League. And so, Robert, do you think those two sides will get 20 plus wins this season to finish them there? Well, that is kind of where I landed. I think with Brighton, there's maybe a question mark over Europe and how that affects their form, whether that might sort of in a cumulative way stop their progress. But with both of them, I think the thing they struggle with over the course of the season is beating, I think they're both capable of being excellent against the kind of traditional elite, traditional elite. But I think there's a different pressure on teams to win the number of games you need to win to get into the Champions League. So for context, Rory, just to interrupt, they've beaten, they've spurs on the opening weekend, they then drew at Leeds, drew at home to Sunderland, they conceded a very late penalty in that game, they drew at Bournemouth and they beat and Chelsea at home. So does that back up your point? Yeah, I think the big challenge of the Premier League for everybody at the moment is being the team that is the protagonist in games. I think it's the thing that is really difficult for everyone to be the team that says we've got the ball, we know how to break you down. I think Brighton and Brentford, neither of whom have had the majority of possession at the weekend, they both had less of the ball and won really well without it. I think they face a different challenge when teams like Sunderland or Bournemouth or Everton or whoever it might be, go to the G-Tech or go to the Amics and say okay, you have to break us down. I think that, yeah, we'll come on to Man United Liverpool, Tottenham, Villa, Chelsea, they're all struggling to do that in different ways anyway. I think for Brentford and Brighton, you throw Bournemouth into the mix generally as well. I think the challenge they have is in beating the team's mid table, lower mid table, upper mid table, the teams that consider themselves their peers, those games and they're the majority of the games in the Premier League. It's hard for them to define games against those opponents. I think in a way we don't, not a false impression, but watching them against the big six is when they are often at their very best. That's when they're almost at their most dangerous, whereas the Premier League is a grind to finishing the top five. You need to grind out results, and I think those teams struggle to do it. That's my theory, but I'm fully happy to be told by Chris that I'm wrong. No, I think Brentford looking at them last season. I think you're right, against the top teams. They had a tremendous record, but it was against the teams who sat in last season and defended deep where Brentford struggled. I think they're worried with Brentford, and if you look back at last season and don't return into a stat guy here, but they didn't have many injuries. They didn't have many injuries. That's a sport science guy. That's what the stats guy, the injuries one is the sport science. How many weeks do we have to do this? That does morph into stats, though. But what's interesting about the two teams, I've not seen loads of Brentford this season, but stylistically last season, they were essentially counterattack, and yet Brighton, let's get it right, Brighton. We're praising Brighton. Last season, Fabian Herzler came under a bit of flak from the Brighton fans at one particular time, but Brighton plays in the opposite way to the way that Brentford do. Brighton, I think, have a deeper squad than Brentford. Because of that, you think, does that give them a better chance? But then you mentioned the Europa or Europe with Brighton. Last time they were in Europe, their form did dip when they had European football points per game that dropped off, but it's fascinating the way that they've started, the way that they press. How hard they go at it, and apparently they press harder in the second half last season than they did in the first half. But that, of course, you run the risk of more injuries if you're going to play that way. But, I mean, they're an incredible watch, and then you get onto the recruitment side of it. And once again, I mean, you'd have all seen Buschkevich play this season for for Brighton. What an incredible signing. He is 50 million from Spurs. Spurs fans must be thinking, you know, how on a wife we sold this guy. And I always think with sides when you play like Brighton, and you're so aggressive with the press, you best players have to be sort of centerbacks. And for a 19 year old, to have the, I mean, his mobile and he can play and he's big, he's robust. I mean, that's another Brighton masterstroke and another sort of, another sort of blot on the Tottenham copybook. I mean, I mean, there are quite a few subjects on tonight that will sort of all merge into each other, I suppose, in what we're discussing. So we could, I mean, not that this is unusual, but we could meander into all sorts of different ways over the course of the two hours. But just on Vuskovich, and then we'll come back to Brighton professors as a two. Vuskovich wasn't unknown. Vuskovich had been on loan at Hamburg last season, and by all accounts, had had a very good, very impressive season. So it's not like Brighton had bought a 17 year old, and Spurs have thought we'll let a 17 year old go and maybe he'll develop or have a, but they've let someone go where the evidence is from Germany, that he is more than capable. And that's the bit, I think, lots of people in this day and age question. Was that, was it Hamburg, you went to, and they were in the Bundesliga 2? No, but it's Bundesliga. It's the Bundesliga last year. The only thing I'm not like, well, to, to give Spurs a loose bit of credit because they've been catching strays already. Is they do have the ability to bring him back? And that suggests that they've actually realised what they're letting go. Somebody who wasn't perfect for this moment, for somebody again who can gain experience, and I think they've got, I forget what the exact terms are to contract are, but they've got the right to buy him back. And obviously that will cost their money. But I think they acknowledge that he is a really good player, potentially. But I suppose they don't know what is going to be like in the Premier League, and when he comes down to say the manager now, in deserving, managers that they know who they trust and they know who they don't. They know who they want and know who they don't. So realistically, Vuskovich could be as good as you want, but he wanted Tanesi. He wanted Van Hecker from his time when he was at Brighton as well. And maybe Vuskovich in the, in the future, will have the chance to play, but it's just good they've seen there. And it's, it's incredible as well, because we've Brighton, similar in some ways to, I'd say, a ball of some sort of Brentford. They're more like the sum of their past, it feels like, because as soon as somebody leaves, the next person to come in, you've probably never really heard of them before, but they do just as good a job. I think an example, if we bring in Bournemouth now, obviously in the league itself, having had the best of stars. True fair. All of a sudden, it's just, oh, Kirkers. You know what I mean? That, that doesn't matter. Same with the attackers, that's some in your goals. Croupage Uni comes in. Horror of the players like this. And it's the same with Brighton. Again, I, every time I look at their team, I don't think it's myself. Oh, yeah, that's a really, really good team. But for a good few years now, especially under Herzler, they've just been excellent. Well, the one that sums up Brighton, for me, is Yard Cuyet, who I will admit, I did not particularly notice it. So I think it was Swansea last season. Wasn't it Chris will probably have seen more of him? He was Swansea last season, Sturm Gratz, the year before. So he was bought by Brighton. Twenty four. Twenty four. Yeah. I didn't see much of him at Swansea. That's the opposite end of the country. It's not with your country. With your loyal teams in the championship, Chris, I thought you might have seen him a bit. But the, that's typical of Brighton. They signed in, I think from AIK in, in 2024. They loan him out for two years. All clubs now will have kind of specialist looking at the loan. The players have got loaned out, making sure they're getting the right sort of experiences. They'll touch base every week. All that stuff, which Brighton is doing, which most teams do. And then they're bringing back when he's ready. And he just looks like he's ready made for the Premier League. Like he's not really battered in eyelid from that, from that first week. And yeah, the worst of it's thing I find. But can't let me throw another example in there, Rory. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, they signed in 2023. He went on loan to, um, well, I'm sure you saw a lot of him, Chris, when he was a, uh, Coventry and Blackburn on, on loan, but that, that's what they do. Yeah. And they, they've got, they've got a pathway in a plan. When, if you compare that to Vustovic, who was really highly sought after when he, when he was picked up by Spurs, who they've been loaned out and who had basically, as good a season on loan in a different country, and I take Nedim's point about, you know, different, different, these different experiences. But as good a season as you'd possibly hope for, this is a player you've kind of invested money in already. And then they sell him for 50 millionish, use some of that money to buy Jampal Van Hecker for 60 million, and then potentially have to, have to buy Vustovic back to, I mean, maybe even replace Van Hecker. That is the reason Brighton won, or one, one end of the table in Spurs or the other in, in one transfer. I mean, it's, it's an astonishingly odd thing to do just because the manager has worked with Van Hecker before. And Brighton Secret, and I think there is, there is a, there is a difference in the way they work to Brentford, is Brentford, I think, and much less motivated by, by kind of, recouping transfer value. But Brighton Secret is basically, they have realized that there is an unlimited supply of footballers on the planet, that there are always more footballers. Just on, on the recouping value, it's quite interesting because over the, if you take the transfer activity of the last five years, Brighton, a one of two teams who are in, in profit, I mean, just in profit, but 12, nearly 13 million pounds in profit, the only of the team in the, in the whole of the Premier League at the moment, in profit, over the last five years, are Everton, and I'm sure Everton fans would probably think that's not the looks in profit. Yeah, really. Yeah, it's a very, it's a very different way of making profit than the way Brighton, they have made profit. You know, Brentford, to be fair, have had one season in the last five where they made a profit on their transfers, but overall that, they're just shoved 200 million down over, over five years. But I suppose the point is Chris with these two clubs together. One of the questions that you would ask, or people like me would ask, when, well, how can they keep it going? How far could they go? One of the points that somebody would then make is, well, at some point, they will be cherry picked by the big boys in inverter commas, and then they will have to rebuild, you know, an eye-axe of a few years ago when they got the job, whatever it may be. These two already know how to do that. I don't think you can use that argument with either of these, can you? Because they've shown over several seasons that they are able to replace. Yeah, and I think certainly the thing for Brighton this season, I mean, I, whether you can judge any team playing Manchester United, but they, you know, they had a second strike against Manchester United and players who I'd never really heard of, Kostina, Cymru, Andrew, who played at the weekend, young 21-year-old. I mean, they stroll through the game. And when you look at, when you look at Brighton players, who they have had out this season, the big hit is Metoma and Minter and Belabour, they've missed them this season. And you think the start they've had, and the depth they have and they play this way, it will be really interesting to see how far they go. I am slightly reluctant about Brentford because I don't think they've done as much business as Brighton. I know Brighton have maybe let a few more go, but I don't think Brentford have had that big influx of players again. And that makes it difficult for them to have another good season. They have to be on the right side of this sort of injury situation, which they were last season, which I think was a big deal. That's where you do need that strength and depth to really go deep and long into a season. Brighton have said specifically, because they're in Europe, they set out to run a slightly deeper squad than normal this season. And Brentford obviously missed out on Europe on the last season just. So that might be that might be kind of the explanation for why one seems busy than the other. But I think that there is a different, we always think of them as being part of the what is the Bermuda Triangle, is the three B teams, Bournemouth Brentford Brighton, these types of traps for the big clubs. But I think Brentford and Brighton's models are quite different. Brentford, if you think about it, they're not really about signing players to sell them on as much as Brighton are. There's been a couple who've done and Bermuda was the big one and whistle, although they were really reluctant to lose you on whistle. It wasn't like they were happy to see whistle go and get his moves in Utah, so they didn't want to lose it. Is that on purpose then? Because for a layman like myself, I would think that they are similar in the way that they are running the analytics and all that. I would think that they're pretty much the same, but you're saying that they're not. In terms of the data, absolutely Matthew Benham and Tony Bloom, although I think the relationships between those two is quite uneasy, but they are of similar backgrounds, they've obviously designed the clubs in similar ways. But from the outside, I would say Brighton looked like a club that are buying players, you're developing them with the aim of selling them on. It was actually looked at Brentford, that doesn't seem to be their priority quite so much. I'm sure, like San Gare, I'm sure will go for a huge sum of money in the next year or two. Edo Tciardo as well, I would guess if you can keep put the store in ratio from last season. But there shouldn't be many in the markets they shop in for players that they recruit don't make me think that they are that their kind of priority is is resell in the same way as Brighton's. I could be wrong, but they've even though they embrace my own whistle went the previous summer. Yeah. So there's not been many other big ones from Brentford. The difference between them is that Brighton and I've been Tony the year before. Yeah. To Saudi. Yeah. Can. Does that count? Do we not think some of that though is because I'm just going to read out Brentford players that they've sold at the last five years. So for me, something that's like a little bit different between both sides is that at the end of this season Brighton would have been in the Premier League for 10 years. Whereas for Brentford, this is their fifth year I think possibly their sixth. And some of the players that you mentioned there, these were players who were sort of in and around their sort of championship spell as well. So they almost had those players in that position in that league and they came up and they did well for them and they ended up moving as opposed to the recruitment from the side of say Brighton where the teams in the Premier League is their third or fourth manager in the Premier League. And these are the players they want to bring in. And I think there's not a perspective here, which we don't really cover us such I don't think is much in the media is the players will sign for Brighton, for example, because there is a good football club, but there's probably a selling there to agents and to players that we will develop you and then you will go to on some of the biggest clubs in and around Europe and the world and so on. So when you're a player that knows you get a chance to play in the Premier League to be paid well to do it and to play for a team, it was now very much like a team who sees an established upper top half of the table. What's how do you lose? We've mentioned two players, okay or so on, who've been on loan for like two, three years, like the contracts. It doesn't work out at Brighton. You can go on loan somewhere else, go on loan somewhere else, because you're young, you've got time, or give your time. But there's something about each player that gets brought in that suits the way that they want to play. And in some ways, get a bit of jealousy here because when I was playing, I was a QPR. QPR in terms of size is no different. You could argue possibly bigger than Brentford, but the way that Brentford would have run, operate their club with their recruitment, their idea of like staying true to who they are. I look back at my time at say QPR. And in the dressing room, we had say the likes of Jamie Mackie, Clint Hill's people who Sean Derry's coming up through the football league and sitting next to them was Julius Aziz, just been at Benfica. Like that's, I don't know. There's a lot of there was a lot of very, very short term thinking at that time. You know, maybe that's the reason beside me, you never know, but that there's a lot of short term thinking where some of these clubs, they're trying to remain who they are, whilst also being competitive in the league as well. On that, and I know you're maybe not saying this in so many words, but the discussion that lots of people will have and have had is, well, hang on a minute, why do they get these players when they get these players and why aren't the so-called top six in for these players at the same time? But do you actually think if they signed for a top six team rather than let's, let's just do Brighton here, rather than lumping them in with Brentford, you'd actually be signing a different player. Glad Murray sat where you were on Saturday and said, there's a patience thing. So you're allowed to develop more at Brighton because there's a general patience around club and supporter base that you're not, you don't necessarily have to be a world-beater from the moment you start. And your point is you will get a move if you succeed here. As in, there's a carrot there and you haven't, you haven't fully made it yet. Where is, and I'm not singling, players out any particular of the elite six. If you go at 20 there, there's a danger of you've made it. Yeah, I think there is a danger of that. But then the type of player going to some of those bigger clubs at 20, they're like, they're a big deal. If you know what I mean, some of the players that say Brighton and others are signing, they've got the potential to be. Like, even look at the nature of the clubs we're talking about that, they've been signed from like, AIK, this Vienna team and so on and so forth. That isn't for the most part where the clubs more towards the top of the league will be looking for players. Maybe because it's a political thing, you can't sign this talent from Austria Vienna because clearly that's not going to be the one that's take you to the promised land. But they're also young enough to where, you know, there's a pressure that comes with, like, if we just talk about the team across the road, any person that stands for Manchester United in this era is under huge pressure to get them back to where they were 10, 15 years ago. And if it doesn't work out, it seems like you're a long-term thing. Then you'll just be out of the football club because as chances are, there might be a new manager, a new policy and so on. Whereas with these other places, you are part of like a project that's been going on for a while now. So you understand the club's identity and at times, to be fair, with Brighton, with Brentford, you could say, with Bournemouth, has the identity really changed in the last three, four years, regardless of whether it's been in charge and for me, the answer's probably not. So you know what you're signing for. It's also great the sort of outlaw for Brighton, getting Pascal Grossback and the form he is in. I mean, it's totally, I'm not saying this against the grain of what they've, you know, what they've ever done. But just for him to come back and influence that, a 35 now. I mean, amazing player he has been, you know, the love of this season, but the last couple of games, just absolutely incredible. So it's not. So, you know, they have a structure but they will, you know, occasionally go against that. It's what works for them. If I said to you then, Chris, with both these clubs, and I'll bring them back together here, even though it's Rory points out, there are different models. What, if I said to you, could they reach the next level? What would you think the next level for those two clubs is, and how would you answer it? Could they reach the next level? Well, yeah, the next level would be, yeah, I think finishing it in and around Champions League football every season, wouldn't it? I mean, they're not, you know, they aren't, they aren't massive football clubs, but they are clubs which have grown well and grown strong. And when you look at the mess other, other, the clubs we associate and say, are big clubs are making of at this moment in time, there's no reason the consistency bright and I've shown the last couple of seasons, you know, two eighth place finishes, Brentford haven't, haven't been quite as consistent, but you'd have to say, you'd have to say, why not? If something is working and that, and the model is working for both then, yeah, but it's right. Yeah, I mean, I, look, it's hard, it's hard to actually say that they'll be, you know, I mean, at the moment, what they third and fourth in the Premier League, they're not going to, they're not going to finish third and fourth in the Premier League, you know, that's been the whole point of this last half hour. Yeah, I know, but it's just, you know, the line didn't say that at six minutes, I think Brighton have a far better chance than Brentford do, but then, you know, Europe may, Europe may sort of drag them down a little bit, just I think Brighton squad is, you know, is, is deeper. [Music] Fall flavors are waiting for you at Whole Foods Market, cozy picks all through the store like Maple Leaf Cookies from 365 brand. Swing by the bakery for pumpkin cheesecake here for a limited time and pumpkin turmeric bread freshly baked every single day, sip the season with 365 brand Cinnamon Spice Coffee and pumpkin spice creamer while you still can spice up fall at Whole Foods Market. The US Virgin Islands invites you to discover the stunning beauty of St. Thomas, St. Croix and St. John. The US Virgin Islands is truly a magical place, one of a kind and unlike any other destination with incredible food, warm hospitality, vibrant culture and breathtaking beaches. 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This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. On the football daily podcast. We're going to talk internationally in a minute. I just want to do one thing on Deserby and how he is after a defeat. And what Chris never lost a game of football. So I'll give to you guys about what you wanted from a manager after a defeat because because Deserby didn't talk to the players after he said he didn't talk to them after the defeat against Aston Villa, but then went back and sort of criticised them in his post-match interviews. Chris, I don't know if you'd agree with this, but I was never really surprised by anything in the manager would say after a game because as a player you know how a game has gone for the most part, especially based on what the plan was for the week, how we sort of didn't. I think sometimes people forget that players can also think for themselves, like you after a game you've got your own thoughts about how you've played, how the teams done it, the disappointment of the result, how you've lost, you know why you've lost, was it bad decision, was it good performance, was it bad performance, all these things, and then why aren't you coming in and speaking? Most of the time just to end it with like get your stuff, we've got training tomorrow, we're going to try and work on the next thing, blasé blasé blasé blasé blasé. So deservedly not speaking, I don't think it's that big a deal for most of the experience players in there because that's a message in itself, but the players know. The players will know. I think I'm also concerned when some managers try and speak to their players through media and not speak to them directly because the media stuff, I don't know man, like I've had some managers in my time, I'll name two, okay, I'll name two. Go on. First one that had the media, and the palm of his hands was Roberto Mancini, he could do no wrong in the media, and the other one for a spell was actually Harry Rednut to wear like for a spell at QPR, if we won, anyone, any player speaking to the press afterwards would have to talk about how it's great to have Harry's a manager, this is especially in the championship, and if you lost, it's because of his players, we weren't good enough and they'd be asking Harry about what can you do about this, and then that's when he gets a little bit dicey, if you know what I mean, but yeah, in terms of what manager says, I think the more games you play, the more you understand for yourself what went right, what went wrong, and yeah, unless a manager throws a curveball, what they say really is good doesn't matter because the game's been, you know, he can shout people, gone. Do you think, though, Ned, the fact he doesn't speak, which is fine, he's probably exhausted everything in the first five games, anyway, he's probably said everything which he can say, I mean, he's been, he's been very critical publicly, but the fact he doesn't say anything Ned and then goes to the press and, or the media and spills his guts and is really quite derogatory, I think that, that wouldn't make him the most popular guy, I think he's got to get that out if he's going to give that message out in public. Yeah, I think so, but again, most of these relationships, as you know, are going to be done away from the cameras and away from the microphones, like what was your like on the Monday when they go into training again, is he carrying some of that with him, like again, I've had some, maybe you have as well, I've had some managers who say some despicable things on the training ground, genuinely despicable about players, about collectives, about teams, everything, and in some ways that probably goes further than anything they've sort of said in the media, because a lot of time with media, especially these days, and it deserves almost the exact opposite of this, they say nothing, because the real messages they'll give to the players, you know, away from the line line, but yeah, you don't, I also think you don't necessarily need to like your manager, you just have to understand what they want and do the best that you can. I'd be respected by your manager. No, no, I don't think so, I think for me personally, like the utopia is to have a manager who you really like and he really likes you, and you work really well together, but how many players up and down the land are realistically having that experience, the answer is probably not many whatsoever, so then it comes down to your level of professionalism, understanding what's required, and playing for yourself and your teammates, if the manager likes it, the manager likes it by that. But then you must have, you must have wanted to be respected. Yeah, but the respect comes in him in the manager essentially picking you to a certain extent. Basically, you don't want to be the person that's treated differently, but for the wrong reasons. Like I didn't like to be treated differently for a positive reason either, I just wanted to be part of the group as such. But the manager, the manager, I think for me, with most of them that I've had, I didn't really have a true relationship with them, I just wanted to play, and if I was playing and we were winning, everything was great, the issues when you're now being taken out the team or you're being cast as this, that and the other, and again, to give you a super specific example, since this is the trauma monday show, there was a point, there was a point with, I mean, I don't want that name to catch you. Yeah, I hope it doesn't, I'm happy with overreaction monday. So this is, this is a genuine story, and like, we were at QPR, how we read that, we got knocked out the FA Cup in the third round, Shock Horror, I played about eight Cup games in seven years for QPR, but yeah, we got knocked out in the third round, so we had a trip to Dubai, a warm weather training trip, and Harry doesn't like it when people drink here. And I don't drink anyway, and I don't really go out or anything like that, so I'm just going over there, do what I've need to do, then go, then go home a few days later, however, I was in the exception, so there were lots of people who were doing just that, and there's one training session in particular, which I'll never, ever forget, it's the worst training session I've ever seen, because half the people couldn't see straight, and there's one person in particular, I won't name him, but anyone that played with me at the time, they know him talking about, you could pass him a ball and he'd miss it by like two feet, and Harry was getting really wort up about this, and at the time I didn't really have any like true relationship with him, and he started having a chaltern at me, somebody who hadn't been out, somebody who was just doing a training session, and I pushed back. Were you missing the ball by two yards as well? Listen, I was when I passed it to him, so I'm like, just control the ball, you know what I mean? Missed place passes when somebody can't see it, but Harry, I started having a go at me, so I pushed back, and I said, you're frustrated because other people have done what you didn't want them to do, and manages overall, don't like it when you talk back to them. And in that moment, I felt it was justified, because I'm not going to be the villain here, because I've not done anything wrong. You're sober. From then, he did not say a word to me for two months, I didn't play a game for two months, not a word, we could be in a lift together, they're awkward anyway, nothing, yeah, until we were playing against Fulham in a derby, and we were having a two-hours-on-a-bench loan behold, and we were having a terrible time, and Harry, in the first half, was like 3-0, turned halfway through the first half, turns, he says, "Go get ready, I need you." "I need you." It's not said it were to me for two months. Good Lord. Good Lord. That was a, that was a, I'm glad to be able to speak this story to the nation, obviously everyone has had a different experience with Harry, but I'm not over yet. Is it helped you down that off your chest, David? Is that, is that what you're doing? Yeah, I'll listen, I know what the clip's going to be, so yeah, that's what I feel. But then, from Harry's side, I'm not sticking up from the fact that you're called him out in front of the group. Listen, most people can even hear what he was saying, that's the issue. You've got to sign up for yourself though, Chris. You have, but you can, I'm not saying Nedim was wrong in what he did, but you've also got, if you flip that and think in Harry's situation, if other people were part, heard that, then, the manager can't, can't be joked back to, can't be stupid. I've got, you've never, you've never told the manager that they're wrong. Many times, but I've gone into their office to tell them that they were wrong. Right, so for my issue with this was the sense of injustice, and this talking about thing actually happened twice, because it sounds like I'm like really rude and whatever now, but it's not, because I might have been shouting out for going out and I've not been out. But these are the times. That's fair enough, yeah. The other time, which is, which I've learned, because I was like a older, I didn't speak to any manager about anything ever. You could call me whatever they want, like yes, sir, yes, sir, yeah, if we go by the end, yeah. So it was at City now, and we were playing, this is, to be fair, this is what my city career just disappeared completely. This is with my cheerleading charge, and we were playing on like a Super Sunday or something, it was a way to Burnley, and we happened to be, I think it was either 4 or 5 nil up at half time, but just before half time, there was a free kick, and everybody was in the right spot, except for one person, I won't name the person, but it wasn't me. Cross came in, cross came in, they had a shot, it went wide. So it's like 4 or 5 nil up at half time away from home. This is like heaven, in terms of football, this is heaven, this does not happen. Walter and everybody's bouncing, and it's like, yeah, vibes, vibes, vibes. And Manchini says, what were you doing on the set piece at the end? I was like, excuse me? He says, what were you doing at the set piece at the end? You were in the wrong position? I was like, no, I was exactly the way he told me to be. He says, yes you were. You need to make sure you look on that board, this that nil then he was angry at half time. So I said, well, I was in the right position. From that point, he calmed down, pulled me to the side, I said, don't you ever speak back to me again. And I played for City twice more in the next year and a half. That was it. Again for Sunday not for you though? Yeah, because, do you know what? Give a shout out to him, he was Craig Bellamy, he was in a wrong position. I said, I love you Craig, I love you mate, he was in a wrong position. He was about, I was me getting hammered at half time, I was like, all done a second, like, what's going on? Like I say, from then, I was cooked, he was not a major. No, he didn't want to criticize Bellamy, or does it, it was genuinely, genuinely he thought you were the one who was in the wrong place? It possibly both, because you could link it in some ways to the heroin app situation. It's not to say that those two managers hadn't had like great relationships with people across all the years and so on and so forth. In those two instances, I hadn't been going out in Dubai, and I wasn't in the wrong position from this free kick, but because I don't really offer any pushback and I just train. Obviously I'm like, no, that's not right. Were you ever considered one of the members of a squad, a bit like what I would keep doing with Kyle Walker in a, you're going to be my lightning rod to hammer to get a message across to everybody else? You buy into that. Well, that was me, Carl Antonio, wasn't it? Do you remember at West Ham? with David Moise, he said that's what would happen, those two would always have this thing. But I wouldn't speak out against managers, I never did that, never ever did that. I just train, but all of a sudden when like, well, excuse me, I must be able to say, okay, sorry, sorry Gaffa, so if you've been in the right position, I will take that blame, but yeah, I spoke up in those two instances, probably the only two instances in my career, and as a consequence, I got a silent treatment and got booted out of a football club. Did you ever, did you ever try and stop the silent treatment? Did you ever try? No, no, I, listen to it, I love it. I loved it, it's like, I love the silent. If that's who you want to be, I'm ready for it. I will hold a grudge for the day that I don't remember. The big two, check it out. Let's go, let's go. Nedden, would you do things differently if you relive those two instances again, based on what happened? Well, it's based on understanding the two managers, because with Roberto, I didn't understand that who he was at that time, and with Harry, I still think it's some just, and I think it was worth speaking up to somebody about, and over time, Harry started picking me again, and everything became more normal. But with Roberto, I learned a few things across the years, and I've tried to give somebody some information back to say younger people were coming through the academies I was at and so on, and one of them, I don't know if you guys would agree. It's like, say when you're not in a side, the certain ways you can go and speak to a manager which doesn't sort of like get their backup, and one thing which I got told from my friend at the time is an agent. He said, whenever you're not playing, he says, go and speak to a manager and ask, what can I do to get into the team? What do I need to do as opposed to ask them, why am I not in the team? Because then you present it to them, like, well, this is what you've got to do, or they'll tell you you've got to leave. But you'll say this is what you've got to do, and you start doing it, they don't pick you. All of a sudden, they're the backer, and it's not you anymore. There's lots of things like that. - You'll listen to the native manure conference. - Thank you very much. - On five lines, we will not be hearing from you if that's true, I'm out. And that will be a regular podcast, available, every Tuesday morning. Vibes. - If the list of the manure is enemy. (laughing) - What? - We have just quote, native, native. - You know what, the thing is, those two are sorts, they're not my enemies, but they're such significant moments where, like, it's still to this day feels unjust. - If it was just to be the other people who've wronged it. (laughing) - Hey, listen, man. - Yeah. - Well, break Bellamy. - Listen, Bellamy. - Listen, Bellamy's a great guy, but he did not take the fourth of me that day. I'll tell you that for a second. - I don't know what to be at a set of pieces though, does he need it? - Well, there you go, my friends. - He's doing five in a lot. - So, these are dads about to take over friends, so we're going to talk about that. Matt Spiro, French football journalist, and commentators, be waiting for 25 minutes through that last segment. Just a bit, just before, have you got somewhere you need to be very shortly? Or are you okay for a little pull? - I dropped in on a counseling session for Ned and Martin, we're moving to the Dan. - Yeah, apologies. - Just before we get on to the Dan, and I don't want to make things worse for Spur's fans at the moment. But you have put out on social media. Was it over the weekend about how deserving left Marseille and where Marseille are at now? - Yeah, well, I mean, it's really interesting listening to the discussion that you guys were having about deserving and his relationship with his players and the way he acts sort of after defeats because it is so similar to all the discussions we were having over here in those last weeks, to mulch us weeks at Marseille. And I don't want to paint everything negative about deserving because it was quite positive for about 15 months. He took Marseille to second. Marseille seemed to be moving in the right direction. There was a lot of investment. They had a big squad. They probably spent more than they really should have. And things went horribly wrong. And when they started going wrong, in terms of the way deserving behaves like after a defeat, I feel like it's exactly the same. He disappears. They went out the Champions League against Bruce in terrible fashion. He didn't see his players afterwards. He didn't speak to them until the next day. But there's also, there have been cases where he's really picked on individual players, whether that be in the dressing room in front of the players or speaking out in press conferences. And there was one player in particular who was really well liked at Marseille. I mean, Marios, a Panama international. And I think that was a case that really hurt his ear because he just went crazy by all accounts in the dressing room, said to Maria, we're selling you. It's not acceptable. Your performance is a dread for this and that. And I think a lot of the Marseille teammates were looking at that, listening to that, thinking, well, hang on. This is a really loyal, good guy. And do I want to be playing for a manager who treats his players like that? And it wasn't only a memory, it was quite a few. But certainly when things started going wrong, that was very much a feature of life at Marseille. But you have to commend Deserberne now for not saying anything, don't you? You have to say he's learned his lesson in Deserberne. But Chris, I mean, I've seen, and again, I've not been following things as closely as you guys at Tottenham. But there have been clips notably when he was having a big go at Mattie's tell, who's a young French player, as you know, and it felt quite sort of pointed and humiliating and all of that got out. And I know that, you know, there have been comments as well, you know, criticisms of the team in press conferences. On to the international side of things. And this is a huge shift, isn't it, for the French national team after so long under Deserberne, or is it not? I think it's a big shift. I think it's an exciting time because we've been waiting for so long for Zinnid to take the job that everybody kind of knew that he was going to take. I think quite a few people kind of wanted it to happen a few years ago, particularly after Deserberne had a very bad Euros. But Deserberne overall, his record has obviously been exceptional. He's won the World Cup, he's got to another final, he's got to a Euros final. So, you know, no complaints about that. But yeah, after 14 years of listening to Deserberne press conferences, of seeing Deserberne picking more or less the same players, he's got his favorites playing quite pragmatic football. People are absolutely ready. And of course, Zinnid, he's everybody's sort of favorite footballing figure, he's an absolute icon here in France. So, yeah, there's plenty of excitement and it was great listening to Zinnid, speak, because that's another thing we never hear from him. This is a guy who says so little in the media. He's very thoughtful when he does speak. So, it's going to be interesting to see how already these next few weeks go. So, if you bump into a native and he doesn't say much to you, that's not what we see. So, it's only to be just about a few words. It's funny actually, Julian Ron was making the point that a lot of the French players are really excited about having Zidane as their head coach, because obviously Deserberne had an incredible career. But Zidane is an icon to all this generation. So, for them to be the position there in as a team and to have somebody that good, but I was also done it for Real Madrid as well. Like, never a better time to be a French player, don't you? And because of that aura, because of his reputation and stature and how he was as a player, what are the French players expecting? What are they expecting in terms of a difference of style? I mean, you talked about Deserberne having favorites or so on and so forth. Are they expecting more freedom? What are they thinking? Yeah, I think first of all, it is important to sort of say as well, you know, Deserberne has an aura. Deserberne has had an unbelievable career. It's one of the most sort of prestigious figures in World Football, let alone French football. And when Deserberne took over, the French national team was in a really bad place in 2012 and he really helped to sort of bring the French national team back to the center of everything and get French people liking Le Blu once again. But yeah, it's been 14 years that past sedan is coming and he's taking over at a time when the French national team is in a much, much better position. They've got incredible talent. And I think those players are super excited. We know that, you know, Embape has always sort of, you know, grown up being kind of intrigued. I mean, sedan is a god light figure in France. I think it's important to sort of stress that and he became a god light figure in 1998, which is the year that Killian Embape was born in. So, you know, these guys don't really know who's the down the player, but they've grown up like watching videos here in the stories and what have you. So I think there's going to be a lot of excitement. I think when that list was unveiled, it was special because getting picked by Zidane is, I think it's even more special than getting picked by, you know, any other national team coach. And it's going to be interesting. In terms of the playing style, you know, that's the thing. In the last few years, everyone's been saying, "No, it's just so, you know, so dull under day shots, so defensive, I wish we had to down." He'd play loads of attacking players. And actually, Zidane said, you know, calm down. For me, three attacking players is plenty. The important thing is to find a balance to find. You know, and actually he was pretty pragmatic during his time at Real Madrid as well. So it will be interesting, but I don't think it's going to be like all of a sudden, four, five, six attacking players, Gungho Football. - Matt, thank you very much for coming on and being so patient earlier as well. - Matt's a bit of a pressure budget list. I've compensated with us on the Monday nightclub. - I just want to end by, with Nathan and Chris and Roy, just talking about not necessarily the specifics of JJ Gabriel wanting to leave Manchester United. He's 15, plenty of clubs are looking at him now, Real Madrid, Barcelona, some clubs in the Premier League. Michael Caracas talked about. trying to protect him, there's plenty of stories doing the rounds. More of more interest to me Rory is, is this really a surprise given the way the system works now? Because there are a lot of kids who are being looked at from rival clubs to take when they are 16, I'm guessing. Yeah, younger. Yeah. Because they realise that there is, I think there's a tip in point when they sign pro deals that means that you suddenly have to pay more than a kind of finders for effectively that. It becomes exponentially more expensive. There's a kid who has gone from Liverpool to Arsenal, I think called Vincent Joseph, who's 16. I don't have Chelsea to Liverpool. Yeah, and there's a few that come through that are, that are I profiled. There's an awful lot more who go for small, you know, small beer by Premier League standards, but big money for teenagers, and a lot of them don't ever become the player that they hope to be. So they might well have really good careers in the championship or even kind of in the Premier League, but you know, Vincent Joseph, no idea, but I think there's a, if you had to bet at this stage, you'd probably say the chances are he won't ever, he's not going to store a hundred goals for Arsenal. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope I am, I hope he has a wonderful career. What I find really odd is that the clubs themselves and there's only maybe half a dozen who do this reliably, haven't worked out that one, I'm not sure this is great for the kids, that they're getting massive money thrown at them to try and entice them from one, one big six, one big ten club, whatever you want to call it, to another. But two, it's kind of, it makes the whole environment much more pernicious, I think, and I'm a little bit surprised. There isn't some sort of agreement between the major teams, not to poach players from each other. I don't understand, there might be one every so often who is such an incredible talent that they just have to have them, but I think the overall picture would be if they just sort of said, look, let's not take players from each other under the age of 18, you'd actually kind of, what's the word, like deflate or douse the market a bit, and it means you're not exposing these young players and their families to the law of making decisions for immediate cash. There should have been a question that I would have put to you, but is that naive? So I, for the most part, disagree what Rory said, and it's more so because the sort of youth market is a huge market, not just for the clubs, but for the people involved, because one thing about football is the fact that it's open to everybody, and most people involved in it have got nothing, they've come from nothing. So the money itself that they can make from it is life-changing to where for some of them, they don't need to have had a full career to have their life changed, and to sometimes to think that people will be thinking on a moral level about what is right and what is wrong with in football, to make sure that they make the best decision. I think in some ways it's misguided because a lot of those guys as well, there's huge interest, and one of the reasons why someone might choose this place over another is they want money that they will offer, like someone like JJ Gabriel is obviously huge talent because some of the biggest clubs in world football already looking at him as a 50-year-old, as a child, I think relatively speaking, like his parents, like we've been saying that I'm not old, his parents are probably younger than me, so for them this is a series of big decisions that they hope that they're getting right for their child, but I feel like this became a bigger story because he's leaving Manchester United to go elsewhere, because if he was a kid that would say a bright one that went to Real Madrid, because he mentioned Bryan a few times, I think in some ways he might be trying to say what an incredible player, what an incredible opportunity that is, and I just feel that at times we're looking at football from the position we're in at the end of it, but for some of these people, the families, the kids, this is the start of it. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, and it depends how you look at it, in the same way as you can look at youth development as is the purpose of having an academy to bring your own place through into your first team, or is it to produce players who you can sell so that you can use that money to put into the first team? There is a third way of looking at it, which is if your kid is 15 or 16, and their options are to earn, you know, £X,000, the club that they're currently playing at, or they get a massive payday, as Nathan says, that transforms their lives, their family lives, sets them for life by the time they're 20, it's really hard to turn that down. I'm just a little bit, I'm not sure that having that amount of money sloshing around for kids is healthy for the game, but I take Nathan's point completely that for the individuals involved, it is understandable that is their priority. I mean, I think Rory's point about having too much money too early, it stands, I think it can be, I think it can be a really bad thing, JJ Gabriel, I don't know the internet, but he can't be in a position where he holds Manchester United to ransom, but maybe that he thinks that it's all about the pathways, pathways being blocked there, and so, you know, he wants to go down a different route, that's absolutely fine, but you can't have young players holding clubs to ransom. Back in the day, Mark, when I was a YTS, I was on £29.50 the first year, £35 the second year, you think about all this too much cash to early, that's not a lot of cash, I had a bus pass as well, I lived in digs in the city, because the village I lived in in Norfolk was too far, there's never regular bus service, and the first digs I lived in had an ant infestation, so I moved out of that one. The second digs I lived in was with another three other guys, and the woman and the guy who were the, who were our sort of landlords, went away for the weekend, and their cat was pregnant, and they said, "Look, the cat may have babies," and they went away, and the cat had the kittens overnight, and we got up in the morning, and the cat had eaten all the kittens, it was, we walked into the cat room, it was like a Texas chainsaw massacre, it was terrible, and I got brooded out, and there I was, and they kicked me out, because that was it, because the cat didn't have kittens, Mark, I mean, Jay, Jay, Jay Gabriel wouldn't have to deal with that, would he? Meandering into a dead end. Yeah, cheers, trappers. Yeah, absolutely. No way to deal with it. Chape, do you remember when Michael did the story at the end about a dead dog? Yeah, I do, I remember Michael and that, I remember Michael and the father Christmas one, and that's, that's right up there. Thank you, thanks, thanks Chris. Thanks Chris. Just to share that, all these young players, they took too much too soon. Deal with that, deal with the cat having kittens. The problem is the eating of us the problem, but that's not, it wasn't my fault, Rory. It sounds a bit like it might have been. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Rory. Thank you, they don't. Oh my god. We've tried live sport and BBC sounds. Hit all the lines, exciting action from the WSL. And it's bigger and better than ever before. Get all the latest news and interviews from the biggest stars of the women's game. I'd actually like to tell you, welcome to the Women's Football Week, Glee. I love competition, I love football, I love training, I love to improve. So when you're a league like the WSL, you have to be at your best every single week. Listen, with the BBC sounds out. Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? 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