MNC: Arsenal untouchable & Man Utd's defensive concerns

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Cupid only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers, chefs use it, restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. This is the Monday Night Club with Matt Chapman. On the football daily podcast. Welcome to the Monday Night Club then with Chris Sutton, Rawris Smith. And recently appointed England under 21 coach Conor Cody. That's a coach, Chris. I know she sometimes she's struggling with the roles of people in football and what they do. So Conor will be on the grass trying to help help players. Yeah, yeah, I saw that. Not to say he's not a sports scientist. No, well, he may go into that, maybe later. So is that, is that you, is that you've done now or is it, was playing Conor? No, no, not quite. Not quite it. I'm still looking, I'm still seeing what's there for the next few weeks. And then obviously we might make a decision after that, depending on what comes. But no, no, I'm still still very intrigued on playing and seeing what's there in the next few days, few weeks. Hopefully we'll see what's there. Why are you looking puzzled at that? No, I just wondered because he's still a relatively young man compared to us three. You know, I just, I just wondered because of the role as well. I mean, you go to that, but I can't, he's really annoying. But because you're going into coaching that, you know, that in itself, as far more stressful than playing Conor. To be honest, Chris, it was kind of, I've not only Kathy for a while, he's an unbelievable coach, a really, really nice fellow, so I've known him for plenty of years and he's always said to me, it's something he want to do. So I have the opportunity now to join him. I think he's brilliant for me because that's the route I want to go down. I want to go down that route kind of. Conor, where are you on your badges? I've done me a license, so I can jump on me pro next year. So that's what I intend to do. And I mean, yeah, I love every minute of it, mate, yeah, it's good. Just thinking if you need any advice from somebody who's managed, then you know, get in touch, Conor. Yeah, I will be, I will be don't worry about that, Chris, even though Chappers told me a bit about you before, yeah, but I'll leave that to later. He did, yeah, when he was off-mic of course, he doesn't do it over and over the mic, does he? Oh, to be fair, Chris is one of the few I would say exactly to his face. I know, I was explaining to Conor that last week, Chris, you got yourself in a mess with who was responsible for what aspects of a football club? When you blamed the sports artists for scouting the wrong players. But that was, that was all I was saying. Let's start at the Emirates then. Arsenal's 2-1 win against Chelsea. We'll look at it from the Arsenal point of view. First of all, which I guess it means we start from under nightclub with positivity, which doesn't happen very often. Do you think they'd look untouchable? Yeah, untouchables are a really strong word. I think they'd look the most ready team I've seen in a long time. At this stage of a season, usually when you look at teams at this stage of a season, they get up to speed and there's a few flaws here and there. They look top, top. And I think it goes down to what obviously Michelin had to have done over the summer, but not just with recruitment for me. I think it's what he does on the grass. I think it must be how he makes them players better. Because the position they find themselves in a minute, not just where they are in the league or whatever that may be. I mean in terms of how they're playing, I just think they look so far ahead of everybody else. It's unbelievable, isn't it? Do you think then, with your coaching hat on? And from a playing point of view, but when you say makes players better, are you look. Because their skills are already there, aren't they? Because they're professional football. So are you looking at what? Versatility, positioning, say the role of Califuri, or what he's done with Havertz, or even the role of Erdogard, who with the three who are most praised yesterday? Are you looking at it tactically what he does on the grass with them? Yeah, and I thought last season they were fluid. I feel like they're more fluid this year. We thought of ours in the last year as being a physical side, didn't it be, they were bigger, stronger. Your sport won't set plays. And I just think now the fluidity between everybody, where Erdogard picks up the ball, the position Califuri is finding himself in his unbelieble, it's a 10, it's playing as a 10. And I know he's played there previously, where he finds himself in that position. We see him, Ben White occupying that position the other day in one of the games as well. They just look, the fluidity between them all now looks like he's improved on it during the summer. And that's what I believe top managers do. They make plays better. It's not just about the plays you bring in. It's about making the plays with their better. What are the questions on that? And then I'll bring the other two in. But when you watch them, say on television, or even from on high, you can see the pattern that they're trying to work, which is presumably worked on. But I'm guessing when you're in the thick of it as a player, those patterns are harder to spot as an opponent because you aren't looking down on high. Does that, is that a stupid question? No, not a stupid question, but it just shows to me the belief they have in the manager. Because he must work on that every single day. So I've seen a lot of Declan Rafe dropping between the two central backs to get on the ball. Other guard being in front. Callie Fiori going in as a 10. Ben White going in as a 10. Harvard's being on the last line. And that's worked on. But it's full belief from the players to the manager that they've gotten him. So that's where I go back to the way he must put in on the training pitch to make them plays better. So we're talking about what team, by the way, who won the Premier League last year and done what they had done and how well they played and he's still making them better. And that's where I feel they are now. It's not just about buying top plays, which they have, by the way, Gammares and players like this who have come in. What kind of a fantastic, fantastic footballers. But he's actually making the players there better as well as bringing them players in, which is an unbelievable thing to have. How much of a difference do you see between the Arsenal last year who were really, really good in the Arsenal that we've seen over the last three games? And is it, and let another evolutionary step beyond? Is that what you turn on watching? I feel like I've seen that a little bit in the first few games. I mentioned their fluidity, Rory About, kind of the position players are finding themselves in. Now the wingers, when they come inside, Oregard floats everywhere. Now we all know he's an unbelievable footballer. But the positions he picks up on the ball to make things happen. It's like he's got that little bit of a free roll where he can go wherever he wants. His goal, yes, he was, for me, was unbelievable. The movement to get in behind. The little overs from, from Harvard. And then the finish was fantastic to lift it over Martinis. But he just finds himself where one minute will be picking up on the centre-backs. Then he's running behind a score of a goal. Then he's playing through lines. Then he's receiving on the Afton. And he's the one through lines. And I just think the fluidity. And you mentioned their evolution. It might be evolution. This is what he must be going to. But you've got to give him so much praise. The way he must have done. It's a lot of work that's gone in. It's not just going by a load of players. Like, for me, he's made them players better day in, day out. Dior and pre-season. And we're seeing it now, it's that early. You know back a year, Arsenal lost that amfield. Liverpool won their first three games. And as much as they were the defending champions who looked like they were, you know, they'd won three in a row, they ended up winning five in a row. They looked relatively like they hit the ground running. It didn't feel a season. Well, last season. Yeah, Liverpool did. They had the last season. They kept wrestling. They kept rescuing themselves though. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, they dropped the results, but they didn't look secure in getting those. It's easy to tell that it was fragile and it could go one or two ways. Whereas with Arsenal, it looks like they've. I'd agree with Conor. I thought the first half of it ain't Chelsea. They played a pace in a style of football. They did at times last season, but not consistently necessarily. And then the second half was full on Arsenal control. We're shutting this game down. We better than you. We can outthink you. We can outfight you. We can outmaneuver you. It was between those two halves. There was a real display of just total superiority. And the big difference will be the work they've done on the training pitch, obviously. But it's having Ode to God and have it's there. And, well, Ode to God have it. And Sakker, so that Chris was the first time since December 24 that they've started a Thursday straight league game together. And the last time you could say that they were all fit over the course of the season was 23-24. And that was the season they finished with the club record 91 Premier League goals. So there are two bullet points there. Yeah, an incredible trio. And, you know, it is only the start. But, you know, as I said, that's ominous. And I think last season people were doubting Ode to God. I think he had a few injury issues. And Sakker wasn't necessarily as fluent best. Madowekki, actually, you know, I think he's a different profile to Sakker. But no, it's the debate surrounding Havards, you know, whether to go with the more physical Yoko res. But Yoko res, he doesn't have Havards intelligent. You know, I think he's a different type of player. But Havards was, you know, so clever. for the, for the Ode to guard goal and that's what Yorker is probably doesn't have. Yeah, I agree with Chris in what he's saying there about the profiles. I don't think the profiles the same even the players he's bringing on and I think that's standing in good stead as well so he can get to a point where the win in a game 2-1. Hencapier comes on who for me is different to Cali Fiore is a defender, proper defender. Cali Fiore is a good defender. Listen, I'm not saying that but what I'm saying is when you two on up is a great player to bring on in Cali. Isaiah is different to Water Guard. Diocka is different to Harvard. These are all different type of players and it's as if now he's got he's found a solution Mika Latetta where he can go. I can play this way against certain teams I can play that way against different teams and it's just I just feel a look at the minute and they're always seeming control of everything they're doing. Do you think Harvard's is a bit berbertoff-esque which probably would annoy Spurs fans immediately just in his touch for a centre-forward is just exquisite. I think yes I can see that but maybe because it looks at it less so maybe that's where. But no I think I think berbertoff I was speaking to Germain Defeubertoff actually today. berbertoff was he hang on there. That was a clang-win it was what we do with Germain Defeubertoff we're doing Clipogen shooting again. Now I wasn't weird it was another podcast which I was doing interviewing him and we were talking about what hang on and you've got your own interview podcast. Not personally it's not names. Is it about leadership? Is it motivational speech? It's about sports science. That's what it's about. But I don't infernice to infernice however good Harvard it is. I can't think of any centre-forward who made the game look that easy and how to the language and he would just pluck balls out of the sky berbertoff and you know like he was shelling peas. Harvard doesn't do it in the same way but his importance to Arsenal is is pretty clear. I think sorry Rory Gwalman Gwalman. Nothing's at the insightful it's just to say that I think that there is a I agree with Chris that berbertoff was much more like played like he might have been having a cigar than Harvard's does. Harvard's is a bit busier but there is there's a similarity in their touch and I think there is a little bit of a similarity in their movement when berbertoff moved but a lot of berbertoff's game was around not really moving very fast to be honest. I think he's like a false knight and have it. I don't actually think he's like an out and out knight and ever have and I don't actually know what his position has ever been even when he was at Chelsea and he was playing how he was playing but I just I don't know what you guys think. I don't actually think he's like he's not a gocker as nine. He wasn't a centre-forward who was he? No. He wasn't a centre-forward at Lavercose. No he wasn't when he first came. That was he was he could play as a he could play as a ten so he has he has evolved at Chelsea they used him as a central striker and then but yeah I mean it's it's different now he doesn't he doesn't he does have to physicality where he can score headers and and but he he doesn't move the same as Yoccaus. Yoccaus will occupy the the centre-backs he'll he'll play sort of high and and run in the child's way. Havots has has the the brain of a midfielder really and that's why you know I don't like disagreeing with Connor but I I think there's a thing with Havots where we've thought of him as a false nine but he's he's not he's just a different type of nine and do you know what I mean I think the phrase itself becomes a little bit meaningless he's a striker he's just also he gets involved with play he's not like a pure nine in the sense that Yoccaus is where that's kind of all he does yeah but he if you look I mean he's stored he's not making does that not make him a false nine no he's not if you're if you're if he's a different nine in a half row really the false the false nine so I think the false nine was initially used when Totti played there at Roma and the idea was that he would hold the ball up spin and then plays it wrongly on them that's what he did and he it was just spilettied run out of strikers and then we started to sort of use it to mean someone who was playing up front but not very good which was what it kind of became in the last 10 years it was I just tried to you didn't store goals was a false nine I think Havots is just a nine it's just that he do he has the still set of and the brain is Chris says of a midfielder and in I don't know in a way it feels like to me like he's a bit underrated which is people think of him as a false nine when they should just judge him and I agree with you there I think he's massively underrated don't back down no no I'm not back down it's a bit of tension in in there all your content these days I was trying to introduce people underrated people under rating is a nine Chris otherwise there wouldn't be constant talk about Arsenal trying to buy another number nine it's that is a much better way of saying what I just said yes well done chap is you're a professional broadcaster well debatable can I ask do you not why don't you like disagreeing with Connor is that in the same way that you didn't ever use like disagreeing with Sean Dish when you were in person with a different in the sense that I was right physically frightened of Sean yeah whereas I respect and like Connor in a sort of intellectual way so you don't like Sean Dish oh no this is like I'm sorry respect and like Sean Dish but I'm not physically afraid of Connor just he is in Manchester from it from a Chelsea point of view can you can you judge anything from that Rory do you think I think the whole Chelsea thing is is mad the ambulance has been there for three and a half months they have bought 10 players they have sold 20 at one point he had a squad of players not a bomb squad absolutely not a bomb squad who were training adjacent to the first team with some players talking about from injury some youngsters some people that they wanted to leave but it wasn't a bomb squad might look like a bomb squad might smell like a bomb squad it wasn't a bomb squad they've been on tour to Malaysia and Hong Kong and whatever the fact that he has in in the first three games there is already you can already see like a distinctive style of attacking play I think it's close to a miracle to expect him to sort out the defense as well immediately and criticising him for for the fact that they don't look like the AC Milan of Franco Barrazi and Palomal Dini strikes me as being a little bit harsh to be honest I thought that they they went toe-to-toe with Arsenal for a bit they created some chances I think they probably let Arsenal play a bit too much and Arsenal sort of advantage of that but they weren't humiliated at the Emirates they went to the best team in the country lost to one deservedly to one but this is a team that six months ago was was a total joke that people were accusing of being unserious and now they're very clearly not they've got a really talented coach and they are making progress so as much as it's disappointing from a Chelsea point of view that they lost I don't think it was a kind of tell your hair out disappointment at all we can't we can't go from talk and I'll go to Arsenal after seven years on their arteta it's an outcaning Chelsea I know I'm just saying like did you all of us though all of us in general can't do that do you know me when we praise an Arsenal so much and it's seven years worth of work to find our tetra get to this point I'm absolutely pretty then after three and a half months of Roger so we're saying Chelsea look I make million miles away from Arsenal they're not gonna look near Arsenal it's never gonna happen as you'll be london trying to wake out I think we're finding what he's prepared system is with what he's played in the first few games which is the three four three with the two tens in one Morgan Rogers and Carl Palmer which is an unbelievable forward land by the way let's not forget about that so we're trying to find out what he's going to be we can't compare them to Arsenal at this moment time you just can't I agree with coach Connor you know with with with his assessment then we can't you know we're judging them against the best team in the land Arsenal and they are so I think it's easier I still think that they're there are some oddities like like Rory has as mentioned they they have been vulnerable defensively the thing which fascinates me is the fact that they're against uh against Brighton and Fulham their possession stats were so low were so low and but at Lavercuse and Rory looking when he won the league 2324 I'd look and thought well were Lavercuse and possession stats loaded you know did the opposition have all of all they didn't they mainly dominated possession still so so I do think that it's a work in progress and it will take time you know the forwards they have and the fact he's playing counter attack you know at this moment in time I think is really interesting but I do think that they will evolve over his time and start to dominate games more than they have but they you know they are a bit of a work in progress and they're absolutely I think the the possession stats are slightly stewed by the fact that they were what three nilup after 20 minutes in its Brighton and I think that along to himself said they they're just trying to let Brighton have the ball and that's what you're doing that situation you you set off you say that you've got a break us down the onus is all on you it's a bit extreme to have 26% possession I mean that was a it was an eye catching statistic but I don't think that's necessarily indicative of the way that that means that that's how Alonso wants to play but I also think he's thinking differently to what not to what we've become used to and you know we in terms of the top teams wanting to have everything and dominate the ball and high press he's he's different isn't he I think one of the things that is misunderstood about Alonso I remember speaking to him when he was at Loverto's and if I'm allowed to climb as well and you sort of go through all the all the coaches he's worked with so he obviously played under Pep, Merino, Benitez, and Ancielotti and his thing is like I took a bit from all of them and he's very diplomatic about it. But the one he is most like is Carlo. I think we assume, because he's Spanish, because he's really bright, because he's sophisticated, because he kind of wears sort of guadiola style sort of trendy clothes on the touchline. You assume he's kind of an heir to Pepp, but he is like Carlo. He's quite pragmatic, he believes fundamentally that the most important thing is getting into the head to the players, building those relationships with the players. I think he probably does prefer playing through it at the back, because that's what he's generally trying to do. But I don't think he's wedded to it in like a Ruben Amerin way. I don't think he's like, well, this is the only way to play football, I refuse to count on it's anything else. I think he'll play counter-attack in football if you think that's what he's got the players for and what works best. I don't think he's a fundamentalist in that sense. But also on the style and the possession then Conner. I mean, there are various things that all play into that. Firstly, I'm guessing he'd quite like his first choice midfield to be available. And then that might give them more control. I also go back to something that Mereska said last year with Chelsea, when Colwell got injured at the start of this season and he suggested they, and he suggested they need another centre-back. And everybody was like, you've got 12 centre-halves already. Why do you need another? And his point was the only other person who progresses the ball as a centre-half, who can pass the ball in the way that Colwell could, is tossing. And tossing's now going to spurs under this region. So, if you look at maybe not the midfield he's got, maybe centre-halves who aren't as good on the ball as maybe you'd like them to just keep the ball. And then also what you want from your wing backs, I'm guessing, in all of this, which might be slightly different things, it's going to take time if you are going to build a possession game like he had at Lavercuse. Of course it is. And it takes time to build everything, not just the way of playing and the way you centre-back step in, for example, and break lines to tens, you then set sixes or whatever it may be. But also to build that team, so, Rory mentioned there, I think it's 10-sanage who's coming. We've got a member at Lavercuse and he had a shakka centre-midu who could take the ball, no matter what. He could get on the ball, get on the after, he could take the game, who he wanted, by the way, who's a top footballer. So, it takes time to build all aspects of what he's trying to do. Now, we can see he's trying to look at things, we've seen Pedro Netto do the day, playing as a wingback. So, I know, for fact, Pedro, I won't want to play as a wingback, because he want to play in the two-tends or in a front-free. That's how it is. But we're seeing him trying things in these games to get to the point that's going to win him games, because he'll know better the most. You've still got to win games being Chelsea manager. But I just think we're looking so much at the start of a process and start of a journey with him. He's got so far to go and that's everything for me. That's on the train and pitch that's players coming in and finding players that fit that system. September's always busy. Their September stock-up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful, nourishing food. Lean on frozen pizzas, pastas, and see food everyone loves. This is Danielle Robe from Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. Nothing compares to the anticipation of something new. A new start, a new year, a new home, or a new car. When it's time to get a new car, where do you start? 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The expectation is high. Subscribe now and don't miss an episode. Search EuroLeaks on BBC sounds. This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman on the football daily podcast. Is four points from three games a good enough start for Manchester United given their opponents, Chris? No. Absolutely not based on the way Manchester United finished last season and I think the confidence Manchester United fans had going into the season and expectations were high based on what Michael Carrick achieved. Then to lose the hole in the manner which they did, it can happen. I think Hull have had a brilliant start to the season. Nothing great point at the weekend against Aston Villa. They have their way of playing and it's an amazing start. It really is from Hull. Then I thought it was good for an hour against Manchester United. I missed half of the second half yesterday because I was so bored watching the first half. It was such a dreadful first half evident in Manchester United. What did you do then? I took the dogs for a walk and sort of a bit of wood up for the winter. Then I came in and Madeleine Nars scored that incredible goal where United looked like we're going to do it which would have been a big result for Michael Carrick. I think Manchester United fans would look at the games and think surely we should be doing a bit better but it's not that we can judge them because it's three games. Why are they defending as badly as they are in the sense of, and maybe you'll tell me there's not a great deal you could do about what Madeleine now is doing, but they've conceded two goals in every game so far. Yeah, of course. You look at it from the outside and you say, a team like Man United, I agree with Chris, it should be winning these games. He shouldn't be conceded as many goals of course. It's hard to give you an answer because the I can see in the goals, what the answer is. I think Michael Carrick will know more, Steve Holland will know more when they're in it, but I think they'll want to be clean. I think the first game I've seen, I think, was a tough one and aware and of course we'll sit in and go, "Man United should win that." But I think it's one of them games as a club like Man United and being in a player's point of view and you never want to do this, you never want to think like this. But sometimes you'll go into that game as Man United players go in, we're going to win this. And then also I'll hold it you with a different way of playing. They're playing a bat five, not a different way of playing ball. They hit you with a bat five, they sit in, they score off the set, plays, whole with fantastic. And that little kind of thing that enters your head just catches up on you a little bit, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to think of failure, I'll just use it from Man United today, but it was as if they didn't expect to be hit with what, whole hit them with, do you know what I mean? And sometimes as players, that can creep into your head a little bit there. It's a little bit of an unknown thing that you come up against and whole with better than them. Yeah, I was in the second round, I was at that game. And it was, I think United looks a little bit rusty in midfield. They looked a little bit at an uncombersome in midfield. But basically that game struck me as being just like a full-on banana skin, hull were newly promoted. They had, they stood somewhere where they, even at that stage, they'd already sound loads of players. But you'd care of it. So by the way, it's a genuine star in the makings of coach. He's a brilliant coach and he's a really kind of charismatic presence. He was given kind of the players who got them promoted the chance. The whole place was up for it. Everyone was in a good mood. They've got this slogan about dream in and staying up and stuff. And I think most teams, maybe not Arsenal, but I think quite a lot of the big teams would have gone to Hall that day and sort of had a bit of a go over the Coles to be honest. And it does happen. Obviously United should have, you know, they'd looked at that on paper and think that should be a win or at least a draw. And I'm sure if they'd played them in November or February, they'd have got that. But first day of the season. You can't say that. You absolutely can't. No, you can't. The circumstances in which you play the team is important. I think it was a much more difficult game on the open. That's a mindset thing. That's a total mindset thing. I think what Conor said is, you know, is absolutely right. They should have been expecting that. They should have been expecting Hall to be super aggressive and run all over them. And they should have known that and they weren't. They weren't quite at it. I mean, the goal they can see it from the free kick where Luke Shaw drops it. I mean, that's amateur hour stuff from Luke Shaw. And it's mistakes. You don't really expect that from a player of his team. I actually wonder Chris where there's an element of every time some discourse against them at the moment, they seem slightly surprised that they've they've conceded. And in fact, Harry McGuire said something after the Ipswich took the lead at Old Trafford that it was something to do with feeling like you know you can immediately sense the next crisis coming when when they go a girl down and there is they don't appear very sure-footed at the moment. That's amazing though isn't it because of you would you would naturally think and you know God I can tell me I'm wrong but the way they finish last season I mean just thinking about what you say though so were were they thinking the way that they finished last season was was false in the way that you know they ended up finishing third and I think they they would have I think the record undercaric they was was as good as anybody in the better in the Premier League so so was so you know were the players thinking we are we are really overachieving and then they you know was with what my glasses have come back down to the level which he actually thinks that they are because that's a very odd thing to say. I agree it is a bit of a a crazy thing to say so early talking about crisis and talking about to say it so early I think the after play with the 9 I don't know what you guys think I think when they play with the 9 I remember watching the first game against Hull and I think Kuhn you played as the 9 and boy I'm always out wide and Kuhn you keep on dropping and it just I just think it fell into Hull's way of playing with three centrebacks the balls coming to the box normally there Hull were editing they were brilliantly in that moment of keeping the clean sheet of Ccesco come on and scored yesterday or played yesterday and scored I just think they need somebody to occupy centrebacks me and I watch Man United play and it just feels like without that defenders can find it quite easy to play against them I don't know what you guys think when you're watching the games as well that might just be me. Chris was out with the daughter. Chris was chopping wood. I'd I'd I'd say here's it I was sorry I was just trying to find the quote and I said it last week on last week show so I found it the gut this was when Ipswich scored first the goal knocked us back a lot when you lose at this club there's a lot of noise and you feel like you're in a crisis again I mean I've answered I think I think it's really fragile that that whole mentality because if you just if you just think back to Man United teams of olds I don't let go too far back because Rory will get angry but teams under Cyrillic's focus and would that have been their their mantra would that have been their their mentality had Ipswich gone the goal up I don't think they would they would they'd be thinking about a crisis absolutely not no but that's because they hadn't had loads of recent experience of what it's like being at Man United and their crisis yeah so it's obvious that psychologically yeah psychologically they will be against our season strongly that's that that's the point so yeah all of a sudden you go behind against Ipswich and you think the wheels are going to come off that you know that I find that really odd you you you would still feel if you had enough within the team which Man United did on the day but you'd still feel that okay that's that's a bit we're still going to win this game they ended up doing that but that's a nothing to admit from Harry McGuire that he felt like that but then they beat Ipswich and beat them relatively comfortably and okay you can say Ipswich nearly promoted team and I fully accept that from those three opening games United would probably have thought five as a minimum seven as a kind of good return potentially nine but then they'd beat an Everton if as they make the Nile hadn't stored the best goal he will ever store in the 96th minute so it feels like you can't read too much into it because the margins are so fine we're going to talk Leicester now who because I know this is dropping out it's dropping out of the Premier League and we've got Leicester and Burnley here who I suppose are both trying to change the directions that they are going in and styles of football that they are playing Leicester in league one beat and four nil at home by Oxford at the weekend they're 17th in league one they've got five points after five games Harry suit to the captain went on so it doesn't matter what kind of football you want to play if you don't compete in the game if you don't win jewels you don't win tackles you don't win headers then you're not going to give yourself a chance in the game we play some okay stuff in the first half but we didn't compete got brought up at half time and then again in the second half the cutting edge wasn't there that's solely down to the players is this is this a club that is just in transition every way you look a former club of yours or is it more than that yeah I think it is but it's been in transition too long now as netif we're going to be completely honest it's it's from the first time they dropped up the Premier League to them when we went back up and then we went back down again it's been too long in transition now now for me to sit here and and state the obvious of things aren't great and things aren't going well they've got five points in in Lee one would it's the obvious we all know that but there's got to be something deep down that's wrong here because it's been going on for too many years now everyone will sit there and go the players aren't good enough they haven't been good enough and rightly so because the players haven't been good enough and I was there I felt it I wasn't good enough when I was there that's what it was so we can sit there but there's got to be a deeper issue and I was thinking about this before we come on chapters and I thought to myself like over the years what gave less that real success and it was that kind of feeling of going to that ground thinking it's going to be the hardest game in the world that's what I used to feel when I went there when you had Jamie Vardy at front you had James Madison behind you had Tealum and you had Indeedy you had even going back to Wes Morgan being at Senza back with Robert Hooth and these sorts of players it was the hardest game in the it was one of the hardest games you're going to have in the season and I just feel like that identity has been lost over the years and I was part of that by the way I was part of that team when we lost that identity and it's tough to see it's really tough to see because my time there was tough but seeing them now in this position and where they're at and it's such a process now because Russell Martin's football I actually really like Russell Martin I really do and I like how he goes about his business and what he tries to do but his football is such a process that you need time to lean and lean and lean and lean over and over and over again it's just whether he gets that talent and and he's been in situations before where it's been sticky at the start and then Southampton is the what and where where it where it turn round but but it there's a pattern as Conor says here Rory and actually you know he's in his he's in a tough spot Russell Martin you actually look at Leicester's last five permanent managers he's second on the list of win percentage not I don't mean at Leicester just over a period of time you know he's got a 29% win percentage there there as Steve Cooper below that Rude Van Nistroid below that Gary Rower below that Marty Cifuentes just above that it highlights the sort of turmoil I suppose of Leicester's recent appointments well yeah but also think about the start of play that all those managers would kind of prefer and it doesn't suggest there's any real strategy there's no overarching belief of what they the ownership want Leicester to be or what they feel Leicester should be and yeah minton is right it takes a while to get used to any new manager I think the issue that Leicester have dropped maybe is that they that you know they're obviously there are a big a very big club for lead one there'd be an expectation from the supporters that even if performances were a little bit ropey and you know the the players hadn't quite figured out exactly what Russell Martin wanted they should have the quality to to be relatively competitive within lead one regardless they you know as much as there's there's a lot of youth in that team I think that they have four players who are 20 or younger in the team on saturday and Lewis Page the midfielder I think money 90s have been trying to sign most of the summer so he's obviously but obviously I've known I want claims we're seeing in play but he's obviously meant to do it all every week I'm constantly at home I've got one of you at all every week another one working as a lumberjack I'm like basically he's basically I'm just going to Conor all the time but I mean but they you know Bobby did they told a Bobby day taught over read was in that team on Saturday he's you know Alex McCarthy Alex McCarthy was in the team suitors suitors and experience yeah it's it got over read 33 you mentioned Luke Thomas has played Premier League yeah he has I was very good yeah I think the point where he made about let this is lester in league one and the fan base you know can forgive you know they can forgive a manager of course they can but if they're not going to be in compare if they're not going to be competitive in league one it's going to be a huge problem and I don't think I like Russell as well I admired him as a player I think he's had to you know he had a tough time at ranges where I ended really quickly for him I think you know some of it was his doing some of it wasn't but there is this perception now which is following him around of of his teams just being purely possession based and all about you know keeping the ball and not not having any thrust or cutting edge and the job he's gone into at lester because of the expectation this season is for them to bounce straight back you know to at the start of the season to win the league so the youth the youth situation and that you know him mentioning that really isn't going to wash you cannot lose four nil at home to Oxford and you know that's the biggest problem and you know he needs to turn it around and turn it around extremely quickly there should still be enough experience within the team we've mentioned the players but also and I don't know this corner and you'd be better better serve to answer this but also you would think that lester have enough quality youth players to to play at that level haven't you with with what they've been through the last couple of seasons premier league and I completely agree and I actually think over the summer the club done a good job and listen lester fans want to hear this and they're probably generated what I'm saying but I actually think they don't go job and shift in the energy so the last couple of years it's been so because the club being in so a spiral and dropping down. The same players were involved in that. So they had the big summary in terms of changing the energy. So a lot of people wanted to see the younger players coming through. So they've got Sammy Braebrook, who've, by the way, is a fantastic football. They've got Louis Page, like my man United. They've got Will Alves, who's been around the first team for years. He trained with me, really, really good footballer. You have plays you can come in, so Badia Luka will play right back. I think he scored against tips which in the cup last week when I watched the game. So real good young players. And they don't well in the summer to really change the energy of it, because the last couple of years are being tough. And I think a big part of when it's tough is shifting the energy away from the players you've been there, but keeping that little bit of a sprinkle of experience players and whatever. But for whatever reason, I go back to it. And again, with Russell, I just think it's deeper than just, it's got to be deeper. It can't just be now. Or the manager's not going to play that. It's got to run deeper than what we're doing, because they decide to bring Russell in. So you decide to tie, tie, you flagged the mast if you want to say and go, right, we are going to go with this, because this is a way that I've got to have time to improve. If they're going to make a decision after four, five games, there was no point in bringing Russell in, because that's not the sort of manager he is, but you know, and I don't like disagreeing with Connor, but I really don't like agreeing with Chris. And the one thing that I think is really interesting, Russell Martin does come with a reputation. And a lot of fans won't like that reputation. He is, I mean, I liked him as a bloke, he said he came in for us really well when we had him on the show, but there'll be a lot of fans who think his football is as Chris described it. It's kind of possession for possession state. So how many of those fan bases will have watched a lot of, or does the does the myth then just build the myth is what's important. It's the perception of you get it a lot when, when players who've been rejected by like Man City are linked with a team in the championship or low down the Premier League and you'll see, you will genuinely see fans saying, well, he's not good enough for us. And you think, well, no, no, just because he didn't made the road at Manchester City, doesn't mean he can't play at that step down. He'd probably be, you know, be perfectly good. And I think Russell Martin's reputation and the fact that the nature of his football is perceived as being divisive, makes him a much ristier appointment than he probably should be. Just look for for Leicester. And all right, it didn't work out at Rangers. Russell Martin got Southampton promoted and got them promoted in style. Like he is. In fact, did he take him out twice? Did he take him out from lead one to the championship, then the championship is the Premier League? He was Southampton. Remember? Yeah. Yeah. He's not a track record of doing this that he's doing it this or it doesn't do work out Rangers. A lot of people don't work out Rangers. But there will be a perception of Martin that means that the fans are less willing to be patient with him than they might otherwise be. And that's totally fair. I think the noise surrounding his exit at Rangers and how how everything was piled onto Russell hasn't hasn't been fair. I mean, you know, that they're, you know, Rangers as such a big club, but because him being sacked in such a short space of time there, I think that that that that Leicester fans have maybe sort of cotton on to what happened there. But you know, that wasn't that certainly wasn't all Russell at Rangers. But this this perception of him as a as a manager and you know, it was it was the same at Southampton where you know, when he got them up to the Premier League, I think they played was a new castle second game. It was the first or second game of the season under Russell they ended up losing one nil, but played new castle off the park. And you know, there was sort of signs things would you know, would go, okay, it's always going to be a difficult job. But you know, he's he's a principled manager, but I just I just he needs a result or two quickly to sort of turn turn that turn the tide because I think Leicester fans have made their mind up with him. And that's, you know, that is unfair. It's there are a lot of young players within the squad. They need they need time to breathe and evolve. But Leicester fans expect the team to go up. And that's his biggest problem. I also remember Chris mentioned there about results kind of from previously. I also remember when they went up in the playoffs in the championship with Southampton, I'm sure I used to start that seeing competitive five against Sonland, they can see before against our Leicester team at St Mary's. He was competing goals and they still ended up going up in the play. Now I'm not saying it's the right way to go the wrong way to go, but I'll go back to what I was saying about it being a process with Russell man. Some managers and some managers come in and they go, boom, this is how we play. We go longer. We play on the counter. We're solid with this. That is not him. They've got a horrible game on Saturday. I've just checked. They're away at Stockport on Saturday who are who are third now. Stockport have been a bit hit and miss at home this season lost at home to to Blackpool, but Stockport away. It is not is not an easy fixture for Leicester. This weekend, another club who are having a very difficult start to the new season of Burnley, who are bottom of the championship, host and editor of the No Name Never podcast and a regular on the Monday night club. Natalie Bromley joins us. Are you worried? Are you fearful? Yeah, all of the above. That conversation that you've just had about Leicester, just saved that. In 12 months time, we'll just have the same conversation about Burnley. It's just going to be exactly the same thing. Yeah, I am concerned. I'm concerned with just problems from top to bottom at the club. We have gone from being a club that maintained its Premier League status for a good number of consecutive seasons or be it a struggle, but that's understandable. We're not one of the rich, powerful teams in the Premier League and having stability and having an identity and having just a consistency in our approach to going up and down, changing a managerial cycle every single time we do the new promotion push, changing our squad inside out. This season, we have started all over again, except this time, we've spent three months appointing a new manager who's not at a preseason. We had a disastrous summer transfer window and as great as a Jeremy Vardy sign in it is, we're scrapping around after the transfer window's closed in the free agent market. We're a side that's got parachute money from the Premier League and we're one of the wealthiest clubs in the championship on paper, anyway. I don't understand how we have got to this stage so quickly and it is a lot. The collapse on Saturday at home to Bristol City. Bernie fans are a very patient set of fans and I think you see this across these Lancashire actually. A lot of the Lancashire clubs, the fans are pretty patient and we will stick with our clubs and it turned the relationship and the anger turned towards the board and the chairman and Saturday. I was going to say it went towards the board as opposed to the new manager. There's sympathy towards him, is there? The sympathy but there is also mixed reports as well. On one side of it, Nicky Hayen came in very, very late and he's been handed the most impossible of tasks. He's not at a chance to strengthen his squad, he's lost some key players. We sold ZN Fleming, our only strike, now striker at the club who's got any sort of talent or game time and didn't bring a replacement in and he's had very little time to jelly side. He's got players who have not got much fitness and he's not worked with him preseason. So there's sympathy for that. However, he isn't helping himself either. We have got very muddled team selection, players playing out of position, players who clearly are not performing well and not working in certain structures, still being picked again the game after. He made six changes on Saturday talking about fitness and squad rotation. We're in September, it's game what five. And then what he tells us in his press conferences is that he likes to play with intensity. He's very famous for a very high press. We haven't seen any of that yet. The players look like they don't know what they're doing, the shape and the tactics look disjointed and there's no energy. And when we went one meal up on Saturday, I was expecting to see a game plan. How do we see this out? How do we get our first home win since last October and our first win of the season? And there was just nothing. There were worse after they conceded the goal and the winner was inevitable. I know you wrote on the BBC Sport website after the draw with the West Ham about the level of joy you experienced, that coming back late on in a pulsating game. Was that because do you think that that performance happened because it was just the opening weekend, because it's still all because it maybe still had a slight Premier League feel about it because of the two teams and you both coming down together. Is that why that had the energy and maybe some of the other games haven't had? Probably, probably a bit of both to be honest. It was a cracking fixture to start that the championship weekend. It was very hyped. It was a TV game both sides who were back in the Premier League last season. We had players playing who hadn't yet been sold. So our squad was generally speaking better. It was a home fixture. I think the fans played their part that day. Not this one, but we usually love championship seasons because it's the season we get to win. We get to win titles and it's great and you don't have VAR and it's just a wonderful football and experience. So all of that came together and it was a really great weekend and we came from behind. But that is the only half this season where we've shown any sort of fight or desire at all and it's just as gone from bad to worse since then the Cup games were really quite pathetic. We're already out the Carrebar Cup and our league forms just, but again, it's a completely different set of players and a different system and yeah, you know, we're still going to cross really good things. Elaine played last week against Middlesbury came on for the second half and he put him just sort of in a defensive midfield position just in front of the back four and he played absolutely brilliant like and then this week he puts him back a centre half. Kyle Walker is just having an awful awful time of it just doesn't look like he wants to be there. He gets dropped, Connor Roberts comes back in, we look so much better, he gets dropped and Kyle Walker comes back in again and so that's when Nikki Hayons not helping himself so he's got, he wants to skip liability for criticism for very long he has to pull something out the back here. In terms of the board then is there been no sign of any kind of planet or does Burnley not patronisingly at all but Burnley have been, they've done this before they know what it kind of, they know what it involves that going up and down like this, this should sort of be meet and drink to Burnley to when it's there. Yeah, it should and that's what we were expecting. I say this a little bit of talking to you but you guys have heard me say this before, we're almost get excited, we have the reverse of the relegation, when we get relegated the Premier League it's like hey we get the championship seasons back and then we go up and you're like oh it's gotten that stage. So we were really excited coming into this season. The problem that we've got at the moment is that there doesn't appear to be any progress being made under this current board, we seem to be going backwards and if you analyse which I did on our show recently, if you analyse the three relegation seasons since ALK took cover when the dash season, when dash got sacked and Matt Jackson took cover, Vincent Cummings relegations got Parker's relegation, they've gone worse. So every single season we've had less points and I think the biggest concern for me for fans sorry at the moment are two things. Number one, we are in a lot of debt, the club is highly leveraged and it has been, you know, since the takeover. We have historically sold all of our assets within the club to pay and service the interest on our loan payments. I don't necessarily have a problem with that as long as you keep showing in that over, but right now we don't have a sellable asset at the club. I can't tell you one of the Bournemouth squad who will go for 17, 18 million like Zian Fleming did. He was the last of our talent to go out and be sold and a lot of our players that we're getting in are loan signings or loans with an option. Do you worry, sorry finally Natalie, given everything that you've said there, you talked about the patience of East Lancashire. But do you worry that you could be the next one caught in the malaise that has hit Blackburn Preston? I know it's not East Lap, but maybe Bolton as well. Of course we do. We've been riding away for success recently and we've been using our Premier League. Outside of the top side and the Premier League, our source of revenue isn't from multimillion pound commercial deals. It's from TV rights and you need to go up into the Premier League in order to survive. And we've been using our Premier League seasons in order to service the debt on the club and also to survive as a business. If we go down to league one next season, that obviously sounds dramatic right now after five games, but we're not looking good or we don't get anywhere near playoffs. We've got one more season of parachute money and nobody's investing in Burnley. Can I just give Natalie a tiny bit of hope? I think you just when you thought you just when you thought that I got this and the end. Just when you thought you'd season and start a battle. I think the guy assigned from Celtic, if he's a row of a tattoo, I think he's an excellent player. I think he lost his way a little bit at Celtic. When he first went there, I thought they'd play Premier League football easily, but I think he's an outstanding footballer and that's something for Burnley fans to be happy about. There you go, Natalie. Look at that. You end for one. You're not bad when you're getting something bigger, Chris. Make sure you clip it all. That's a bit of example of the power of his motivational speaking. That's what that is. Thank you, Natalie. See you soon. Natalie, probably with us for the day they never podcast. That's it. Thanks to Raw Recris and Connor Champions League. Back this week, Fad Live has commentary of Porto Manchester City on Tuesday, followed by Liverpool against Atlético Madrid on Wednesday. The ESL has a brand new home. Hello and welcome to 72 plus the home of the ESL from Fire Fly Sport. Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and Your Dead To Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.