324. MIT - Playback Wednesdays

Welcome to the College Admissions Process podcast presented by PrepExpert. PrepExpert offers live online SAT and ACT courses with the best score guarantees, instructors, and curriculum. Go to prepexpert.com to guarantee your child's success. What's up, podcast friends, and thank you for listening to the College Admissions Process podcast. While analyzing the podcast data, I realized that many of the earlier episodes, some of which received the most overall downloads and are still extremely relevant today, are not being listened to as much as the newly released episodes. This is why I created the alphabetical list of colleges available on the podcast with the link to the related interview to the right of each school. Please use the alphabetical list as part of your college search, which can be found in the show notes and on my website, www.collegeadmissionstalk.com. The alphabetical list serves as an on-demand virtual college fair with schools from throughout the country to highlight how valuable the alphabetical list is. I will release past episodes that received the highest overall downloads on Wednesdays throughout the summer. Please share the alphabetical list with anyone you think that may benefit, as it has proven to be such a valuable tool for so many listeners. So are you ready? Let's talk about it. Welcome to the CAP, the College Admissions Process podcast. I am your host, John Durante, and it gives me great pleasure to introduce you today, David Ducor Jackson, who's the Director of Admissions at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, fondly known as MIT. David, I'm so grateful that you're here today. I've been trying to get you on for a while. Welcome, and how are you? I'm doing great, John, and thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about MIT today. Well, it is our pleasure and honor. So let's start by asking, David, what innovative or unique academic programs at MIT set the institution apart and what qualities or indicators do you look for in applicants that reflect a true passion for all of these areas? Well, you know, it's a funny thing. I mean, we have outstanding academic programs across the curriculum. And so rather than focusing on any, you know, single particular discipline, I want to highlight a program that's available to all of our undergraduates, regardless of what discipline they choose. And that's the Undergraduate Research Opportunity Program. You know, so it's one of the first of its kind in the U.S. began in 1969, so a year before I was born. And today it supports nearly 6,000 projects yearly with, you know, 93 percent of our undergraduates participating in at least one year during their undergraduate years. And the idea really is that our motto is "Mins at Monace, Mind and Hand." And it's an opportunity for students to really, to get their hands dirty right away and to engage with faculty and with their discipline to develop, you know, professional networks and get ready for what work it's going to be like, you know, on the other side of their MIT education. Well, I wasn't familiar with the Undergraduate Research Opportunity Program and wow, 6,000 projects yearly. Obviously, MIT is known for your STEM programs, including, but not limited to, Compsi, Chemical, Mechanical and Biological Engineering, not to mention Economics and Physics. And by the way, David, I read recently that your retention rate is 98 percent, which is truly astonishing. It talks about the amazing campus culture. And speaking of that, can you describe MIT's campus culture and student life and explain how the university supports students in balancing rigorous academics with all of those extracurricular opportunities? So, you know, MIT, it's one of the things that, it's kind of a challenge because people have perceptions of what MIT is. And, you know, in our, you know, foundational level, we are a university and a university with a full range of offerings with students with a variety of passions and interests. And so they're interested in the arts and they're interested in music and they're interested, you know, obviously in science and in athletics. You know, so there's a full, you know, range and gamut of opportunities, but I would say in terms of how MIT supports students engaging in those things, there are a variety of support programs that really enable students to pursue anything that they want. And it starts even in the first semester where the way that, you know, things are graded is on a past no record basis. And what that means essentially is that, you know, students, you know, they come in, you know, they're very well prepared, but they want to try everything, you know, they feel like, you know, they're a kid in the candy store with all the offerings, you know, that are available. And so in that first semester, you know, the courses are all, you know, kind of pass or not pass. You know, and I don't want to say pass/fail, you know, because ultimately, like, if you were to earn a grade of C or better, you know, something that would, you know, get you credit, you will pass that class. And if you were to earn a grade of less than a C, there would be no record that you ever took that course, you know, that would appear on your transcript. And it, you know, gives students the opportunity to come in to kind of see, you know, where they're at, what level they're at, and, and, you know, kind of the test their medal, as it were, you know, against the curricula. And then, and then move on from there. And then the second semester, it switches to ABC, you know, no record. And so, you know, they can go through that entire first year, you know, kind of try everything, figure out where they are, and then move on from there, you know, with the Salt Lake Academic Foundation. And, you know, if students aren't successful, we have a variety of support programs to help them out. But I would say that, you know, is, is kind of the core of giving students the opportunity to really try things. I appreciate in the beginning you talked about the fact that people have perceptions of what MIT is. And I'd like to dig a little bit, if we can, regarding your mission and values. So, David, can you share MIT's core mission and values and how important is it for students to incorporate these into their college applications? That's a great question. So, in short, our mission is to use our collective energy and intellect to solve the world's biggest problems. You know, so ultimately, we want our students and our community to work towards solutions that are going to make the world a better place. And as it relates to our admission selection process, mission alignment is a critical component, you know, of what we're looking for. And so there can be students who are very well qualified who ultimately we're just not going to be that interested in. And the example that I like to use is that in addition to the STEM programs that you mentioned, we also have an excellent School of Business, the Sloan School of Management. And I would say with business or with management, you know, oftentimes, you know, students who are interested in a business education want to develop a product or service that's going to generate personal wealth. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I have no interest in those students whatsoever. Now, if they wanted to develop a product or service that was going to make the world a better place to solve, you know, big problems. And in the process, generate personal wealth, you know, that's something that I could get behind. But it's a difference of what you want to do, you know, with that education, you know, that is, you know, so important to us. Yeah, and I appreciate you talking about how your mission is around using our collective energy and intellect to solve the world's problems. And remember that students, because when you're filling out the application, it really is important to get to the core of the mission, the values of the institution so that you can hopefully express, first of all, that you understand it, but also talk about what you've done in high school that is in line with it, and frankly, what you plan on doing once you're on their campus. Now, David, MIT is renowned for its interdisciplinary approach. How important is it for applicants to demonstrate cross disciplinary interest and what guidance do you have for students with diverse academic passions? Well, I will say that we have certainly seen an increase in the number of prospective students that, you know, are interested in solving problems that draw on multiple disciplines. And, and that, you know, typically necessitates that students collaborate with others cross disciplinary and develop a foundational understanding in a number of different areas. But as it relates to applicants, it's not necessary for them to have done that, you know, and so we just want them to, you know, pursue the things that are of genuine interest to them. And, and, you know, and then, you know, tell us what they're passionate about and we'll make an assessment from there. And I would say, you know, speaking specifically to students with, you know, diverse academic passions, as you've said, I would say they should pursue them all. You know, there's nothing wrong with doing that. And, and, you know, the, the piece there is that, you know, certainly it makes sense for students to be judicious, you know, with their time. And, and I recognize that people can't do everything. And, you know, and so students do need to make choices. But for things that you're genuinely interested in, why, why wouldn't you do that? Well, thank you so much, David, of course, we appreciate that. And obviously, one of the most important things for the students and their families that are listening are your holistic review process. They want to hear everything about it. So can you walk us through MIT's holistic review process and explain the relative importance of each part of the application, such as, of course, grades, essays, recommendations, extracurriculars, and anything else that you want to share with us, David? You know, John, I don't think anybody's interested in that. Yeah, right. Well, again, thank you for asking this. It's a great question. And as I think about our, our review, I think about the fact that I have been at a number of institutions and at MIT, the process is, is, is the most meritocratic process, you know, that I have ever been a part of. And in terms of their view, ultimately, you know, what we're trying to assess, you know, is, you know, whether someone is, you know, certainly one academically prepared, you know, do they have the appropriate academic foundation to come in and do the work? Are they a good batch, you know, for the institution, a good mission match, a good cultural match? And are, are they going to use their MIT education in a way that is going to bring more good, you know, into the world? And so, you know, as we, you know, start, you know, with applications, you know, we're going to look at a student's curriculum, you know, that's always a good starting point, start with the transcript. And, and we're looking at, you know, what have students taken, you know, over the course of their high school career? Have they challenged themselves in, in, in math and science, you know, in terms of, and taken advantage, you know, of the opportunities, you know, that the school provides. And, and, you know, and frankly, we expect that students are going to challenge themselves, you know, as much as they can, you know, to take advantage of those opportunities because we feel that, you know, students who have taken advantage of all the opportunities in their high school are likely to come into MIT and take advantage of the opportunities on campus. And students who are not taking advantage of the opportunities at their high school are unlikely to come in and take advantage of all the opportunities at MIT. And so, so looking at the specific courses that students have taken, that's a, that's a starting point, you know, have they taken AP honors, IB, you know, all of those things. And then we're, you know, certainly looking at their grades and we typically, you know, a question that gets asked is, do students have to have all A's? Well, I mean, you don't have to have all A's, but it's better if you do. And, and actually, one of the favorite questions that I've, that I've been asked is, you know, would you rather see someone get all A's, you know, in regular courses, or, or, you know, a B in an honors course or an AP course, and I would rather them get an A in an AP course, you know, and so there's no reason why somebody taking a more rigorous course, you know, shouldn't perform. And so, but, you know, so we do want students to perform well in a rigorous curriculum. And then as it relates to essays, you know, again, we just want students to be authentic, you know, to give us a sense of, you know, who they are, and, you know, kind of what their journey has been. We would like to have a better kind of understanding of who they are. And, and, you know, and then in terms of recommendations, and I know, you know, I'll probably dig into this a little bit more, but, you know, what do the people in your community say about you, you know, the people who can speak to those things, those are, that's critical. And then as it relates to extracurriculars, it's not necessary to do everything. It's, again, going back to, you know, pursuing your passions. It's, it's important to do things that are meaningful to you, you know, and so anything that somebody does, they should be able to tell us why they do it. And, and again, that doesn't mean that somebody needs to to found a club, or to create a nonprofit, which, you know, people like to do those things. And it could be that, you know, the most significant thing that somebody's doing, you know, is working, because they need to, you know, to help support their family. And, you know, and so what students do is, to some degree, less important than why they do it. And so all of those things are things we take into account when evaluating students. Well, I think you made so many great points, first of all, indicating why you're doing something. So as you put it, if you're working because you need to help the family, that's something students that you must make very clear. Otherwise, you're leaving it up to the admissions professionals to speculate as to why you might not be as active in your high school in terms of the extracurricular activities. Obviously, with the academics, you talked about wanting to rigor, you spoke clearly about, yes, it's preferable to have that A in an AP course as an example, and MIT is obviously very competitive. But what I want to talk about are a couple of things that you mentioned that perhaps people didn't quite understand. And you talked specifically about the question, are they a good match? When you're reviewing applications, you ask the question, is the student a good match? You pointed to your mission in terms of being a good match related to your mission. You also asked the question, are they going to use their MIT education to do good for the world? So again, this points back to the mission which you talked earlier about, which said to use our collective energy and intellect to somehow help solve the world's problems. And I mentioned all of that because I would imagine that if students can demonstrate their understanding of all of this, perhaps in their supplementals, if they're able to express what they've done in high school that is in line with your mission, what they plan to do not only once they're on your campus, but beyond, that would help them. And so the supplemental, in my opinion, is probably a good area to indicate this. So David, what is it that you are looking for in the supplemental essays that isn't easily captured in other parts of the application, and how can students best showcase these unique qualities? So the one clarification that I would make is we're not on the common application. And so we don't get the big essay, you know, basically the only essays that we have are what would typically be considered the supplemental ones. They are the, you know, the ones that give us just a little bit more information about the things that are most salient for us. And I'll just quickly run through what those questions are, you know, so they're nothing super complicated, but just a couple of questions, you know, what field of study, you know, interests you or appeals to you right now. And then tell us more about why that field of study at MIT appeals to you. You would be amazed at how many people with on that question. And then another question, we know you live a busy life. You know, lots of things that you do that are required of you. Tell us something that you do simply for the pleasure of it. So again, not not super complex, we just, you know, want to get a sense of like, when you when you can choose, what do you do, because we want to get a sense of, you know, who these kids are, and lots of students will tell us, Oh, I do math for fun, maybe, maybe you do math for fun. But that's, don't don't tell me that because you think that's what I want to hear, you know, I want to hear what you actually do, you know, what is, you know, what is the thing that helps you to, you know, to relax. But again, some genuinely, I don't want to discourage people some genuinely do do math for fun. And it's a longer one. While some people reach their goals, following well trodden paths, other blaze their own trails, achieving the unexpected, and what ways have you done something different than what was expected in your educational journey. And I could talk more about that one. And I'll just read these other ones. MIT brings people with diverse backgrounds together to collaborate from tackling the world's biggest challenges to lending a helping hand. Describe one way you've collaborated with others to learn from them with them were to contribute to your community together. And then the last one is, how did you manage a situation challenge you didn't expect. What did you learn from it. So those are the questions that we ask. And again, I don't think there's anything particularly earth shattering, and any of them, but they do, you know, point back, you know, to match. One question specifically is, you know, what have you done with the opportunities because, you know, there are lots of students who produce a portfolio of experiences that is that is impressive. There's a term that that I have used. I didn't invent it, but a term that I use paint by number, you know, where, you know, they have this idea of what the perfect MIT applicant is going to look like. And so they try to assemble a set of, you know, experiences that create this image, and it looks impressive on paper. But again, if we start, you know, kind of scratching the surface and why did you do this. And they don't have good answers for that. You know, that suggests that, you know, they weren't driven by their own passions, they were driven because, you know, they thought this is what they, you know, should do in order, you know, to impress us. And, and typically, if the why isn't there, you know, it is less impressive. But then, you know, the next question I talked about, it really talks about, you know, collaboration. And at MIT, you know, certainly we do expect, you know, students to, you know, to be very talented. But when they go out into the world, they're going to work with other people, they're going to work in teams. And, you know, collaboration is one of the things that we try to encourage students, you know, during their time on campus. And, you know, I probably haven't talked enough about collaboration. And I'll go back to, you know, kind of one example, which is that, you know, at most high schools, you know, students, you know, they have their work, you know, they're assigned the work, they turn things in. But, and we have homework too, although we have special names for everything. And, you know, and, you know, things that the typical assignment that students are going to have is what we call a problem set. And usually, they are, you know, kind of indexed so that they're not impossible, but they might be difficult for somebody to do. For somebody to do on their own. And, and that's intentional, you know, because we don't necessarily want students working on their own. We want them working, you know, on a team. And, you know, learning to work on a team is, again, part of the experience of being at MIT. And so when somebody turns in a problem set, they need to identify, you know, all the people, you know, that were in that group. And so we're trying to encourage and cultivate, you know, that collaboration. And, and I think that is in stark contrast to one of those preconceptions that people have about MIT, that it's this very competitive place. You know, certainly, you know, people like to do good things, but they are working together, you know, to do those things. And, and so, you know, we're looking for people who are, who have a collaborative bent, you know, towards them, and who recognize that they can learn from as well as teach, you know, others. And, you know, and so that's part of the way our community works. And then that last question, you know, managing a challenge that you didn't expect. That's one, it's, it's, it's kind of funny because students will spend a lot of time talking about how some situation went catastrophically wrong. And they missed out on kind of the most important piece, which is, what did you learn from it? You know, like, how did you manage it? What did you learn from it? Because ultimately, we know that, you know, students are going to face many difficult challenges, many situations that don't go the way that they want them to. And, you know, the fact that somebody's going to face that, you know, that's not necessarily extraordinary. But someone who can pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and then use what they learned to, you know, to go do better the next time. So those are things that we value a great deal. Well, that's awesome. And I appreciate you talking about a student describing a difficult situation, but then they forget to add, what did you learn from it? What was the point? What was your why in terms of whatever the situation is? I love how you emphasize that MIT is, in fact, a collaborative team approach, and you don't want to create an application writing only what you think the admissions office wants to hear. Because, frankly, students, if you sound like every other student that's applying to MIT, you're probably not going to stand out. Would you agree with that, David? I would agree with that 100%. I appreciate it. And with test optional policies gaining a lot of traction, David, how does MIT view standardized test scores within an applicant's overall profile? Well, I will say that we require testing. And we require testing because our research shows that standardized test performance is predictive of success at MIT. And the other piece for us is that standardized tests have also enabled us to identify and admit students who don't necessarily have access to a wide range of enrichment opportunities, or the most advanced coursework, but who nonetheless demonstrate the academic proficiency that gives us a confidence that they can be successful. And so we respect the value of tests, we do appreciate them, but they still are only a single component of our evaluation. So it's just part of the puzzle. Well, I appreciate how you talked about the fact that it also helps to level the playing field. You have students that come from high schools with 20+ AP programs, some that don't have any, some only have five. And so, yeah, it's one indicator, it's one data point that is important to help a competitive school like MIT really see the differences between the thousands of students that certainly apply. So, David, how do you evaluate letters of recommendation and what advice do you offer students and even recommenders to ensure these letters enhance an overall application? So, it's funny, I spent a little bit of time as a college counselor, and when I say a little bit of time, I mean eight years between my time at MIT. And, you know, so I've written plenty of recommendations in addition to the many that I have read. And in a lot of cases, you know, recommendations are neutral, and they're neutral because they are, they're supposed to be affirming, they're supposed to be positive, and they've done their job, you know, to do that. And in terms of, you know, students, you know, choosing recommenders, you know, it's important to choose recommenders carefully, obviously. And prioritizing teachers who can speak to a student's strengths in the classroom, you know, that's, at least for MIT, you know, that's what we're looking for, people who can speak, you know, to their strengths. And we specifically, while we don't require it, we do require two recommendations, and we prefer one from a STEM recommender and one from a non-STEM recommender. And part of that is that those two are likely to say different things, they're going to give us different perspectives. But if somebody gives us a physics and a calculus, you know, they're both probably going to speak about problem solving, which is useful, but, you know, you've duplicated it. And, you know, we're getting the same message, and there's some additional insight that we could have gotten that we didn't get. Now, I will say that, you know, some students might send us an English and a history. Again, you know, we're going to get the same things, we really do want the problem solving though, so we would prefer to have a STEM one. But I would say, you know, do get a variety, you know, do get, you know, teachers that are going to be able to speak to different dimensions of a student's background, but, you know, but students, you know, certainly should choose people who know them well and can speak to them. And I would also say for recommenders, I mean, maybe students can say this to their recommenders or maybe recommenders are listening, I'm not sure. But I don't want a rehash of a student's resume. You know, I want teachers to talk about, you know, how they know students, the way that they contribute, you know, in the classroom, that's the information that's most useful to us. That's the information that is unique, you know, that a teacher has that they can share with us. Hey, podcast friends, if you've been enjoying the College Admissions Process podcast, I'm excited to share my new book straight from the admissions office, Insider Strategies for College Applications. It's packed with insights and tips from over 250 podcast episodes with admissions professionals designed to make the college process less overwhelming. Whether you're a student, parent or college counselor, it's a valuable resource for navigating the admissions process. By grabbing a copy, you're also helping to support the podcast. The links are in the show notes. Thank you and best wishes to all with the College Admissions Process. Well, we appreciate you talking about how you prefer a variety. For example, one teacher who's a STEM teacher, one non-STEM teacher. So we get the variety and I also appreciate you talking about how teachers can speak to the students' strengths in the classroom as opposed to just repeating what's easily found on a transcript or an activity sheet. One of the best examples that I heard a rep talking about in admissions was that when a teacher wrote about a student, he or she spoke about how when they did their lesson plans, they needed to take this particular student into consideration in terms of the follow-up questions that surely the student would ask that were of higher order thinking. And so the teacher wrote about how when they are lesson planning, they're considering this student, which is amazing, right? So it's really a lesson for the recommenders because I know there are a lot of teachers and guidance counselors that listen in on the podcast. You don't want to just repeat what's easily found in other parts of the application. It's important to be mindful that the application has many parts. Each part has a distinct purpose. They have to complement each other and frankly build upon the next. So again, if you're repeating what's on a transcript or an activity sheet, you're not really adding overall value to the process. Now, David, what are some other common mistakes you see in college applications and what practical tips would you offer students to avoid them? So I have seen by share mistakes, one I've already mentioned. But it's MIT, we have some admissions blogs that have been running for 20 years and I actually wrote a blog about this very thing titled, You're Doing It Wrong. And I highlighted a handful of things. The first one was failure to follow directions. I know it is something that teachers stress all the time, but it is kind of a fairly basic thing. We ask you to do a certain set of things, please do those things. It is so simple when you just follow what we ask you to do. A second thing is providing incomplete information. And so on our application, the area where it's most common is we ask students to list out the courses that they took in high school and they're thinking, I'm providing a transcript, but they don't know the variety of transcripts that we see. And so it's useful to us to have all of the grades and courses delivered in a kind of a consistent way so that we can quickly scan a student's record and know what they've taken. And so students will often just not complete that or leave off their senior classes and so not providing complete information. Thinking specifically about the essays, overused metaphors, cliches, and responses devoid of thoughtful reflection. And we used to ask a question that asked about a student's background, and I can't tell you how many different times that someone provided a recipe. And it was almost as if they found, either they thought, oh, this is going to be a creative way to introduce this, or they found something online and said, oh, try this. It wasn't nearly as creative as people thought it was. And then one that I have seen less frequently, but still seen it nonetheless critiquing the application and/or the process within the application. I mean, I'm not sure why somebody would do that, but it happens. And then I think actually the biggest one for us is sending lots of extra material. And students really, they want to put their best foot forward, and they want to provide as much information as possible. And there's a limited amount of things that applications ask for, but applications typically ask for the things that the office, the admissions office, is going to use. The things that help them to understand who's a good fit for their community. And so more often than not, all that extra stuff does not help to provide any clarity about who those students are or why they're a good match. And frequently what it does is it kind of varies the things that the office was looking for in all this extra information that just makes it more difficult to find things. And so while technically the sending lots of extra stuff might fall under the category of failure to follow directions, it's one that particularly for schools like mine and other places where they're getting tens of thousands of applications, just one extra document multiplied by 30,000 is a lot of extra stuff. And so, so those are just, if avoiding those things, I mean, and, you know, there are many other things we could get into, but avoiding those things, I think would go a long way. So students more does not necessarily mean better in the admissions process, so definitely follow the directions of the admissions office. Now, David, you also mentioned your blog, I put the Office of Undergraduate Admissions in the show notes always. If you want to include that, just send it to me and of course we'll create a link and make it available to the students and their families. David, beyond managing the freshman class size, right, every single institution has an institutional priority in terms of the number of freshmen they're looking to admit each year. So aside from that freshman class size, what key institutional priorities influence admissions decisions at MIT? You know, I hate to sound like a broken record. But really serving the mission is is what drives, you know, our admission decisions. And, and certainly, you know, there is a component, a practical component that is, you know, we, we want to class size of a particular, you know, and we were interested in composition, and we're interested in diversity along a variety of dimensions, because we feel like, you know, diversity is is a more diverse community is going to enhance the learning that happens. And so all of those things kind of play into it. But ultimately, it is, you know, what is the way that we can pull together a first year class that serves the mission of the institution. So students, you heard it here again, serving the mission, right, instead of trying to sound like everyone else, because most people probably neglect to take the time to look at the mission, the values, the core beliefs of the institution, and then demonstrate what you've done in high school that is in line with that, demonstrate how you understand it, how you're going to contribute, not only during your time at MIT, but beyond. So what are you going to do, as David said much earlier, what are you going to do with your MIT education? So if you could understand those core values, which are all under the umbrella of the MIT mission, I think you will put yourself in a better situation with your overall application. Never any guarantees that anyone's going to be admitted, but understanding these core values, I think, is extremely important. How is MIT, David, leveraging this thing we call artificial intelligence to manage and evaluate the tens of thousands of applications each year? And what should applicants know about this technology's impact on the overall process? So it's funny that you asked that, primarily because the admission, or at least the undergraduate admission process, the process for which I'm responsible at MIT relies entirely on human intelligence. And so we're not afraid of artificial intelligence, and I would say, I wouldn't be surprised that a time comes where we rely upon it more, but right now we feel like our staff is better at identifying the candidates that we think are going to contribute and benefit most from an MIT education. And the things that I think are important for students to know is that, one, artificial intelligence is here to stay, and its prominence is only going to grow as time goes on. And is someone, are we going to hold it against somebody that is using AI in writing their application? Well, I kind of think of what a typical teacher would say, you're only cheating yourself, because we're trying to figure out who students are. And if a student uses artificial intelligence to complete their application entirely, they're depriving themselves of the opportunity to talk about who they are. That being said, there are pieces of it that are in use all the time. And so I send texts on my phone, I use Google, or Google Docs, and I was surprised when typing that it'll give me the next four words, and those are exactly the words that I was going to use, because it's been reading everything that I write, it knows what I want to say, and it's helping me. And so there is, that's being used right now. And that's fine. It helps you to do the things that you were already going to do. I think it becomes a problem when students completely outsource their work to AI. And so we're not at a stage where we're prepared to do that in our office. And so it is people that are still looking at every application that are trying to get a sense of who somebody is, and as I said, who is going to most contribute to our community, but also who's going to most benefit from our community. Well, I appreciate how you talk about the fact that MIT relies on human intelligence, and that you have real people reviewing those applications because AI can do many things, but it doesn't take away that human element. Now, MIT places, as you've indicated, a strong emphasis on fostering an inclusive community. You talk so much about your collaborative and team approach. How does diversity and personal backgrounds factor into your admissions decisions, David? Well, I mean, it is critically important to us. And again, it is tied back to our mission. And as a community, we value diversity because we believe that students are going to learn more when surrounded by and engage with people who think differently, given, you know, there are different backgrounds and experiences, and we really feel that better solutions are going to emerge when a variety, when a wider variety of perspectives are considered. And I think, you know, we have seen plenty of cases, you know, in the media, you know, where when those, a variety of those experiences, you know, weren't, you know, when there are people that were missing from those conversations where technology missed, you know, would. And so anyway, we think, you know, it's going to be better all the way. And within our admission process, we're concerned first and foremost with achievement, you know, so that is always the starting point, you know, what have students achieved, because that's necessary to demonstrate readiness for the academic rigors of MIT. But that's also considered hand in hand with the achievement or with the context in which that achievement is is is performed. And when I say context, you know, I basically just mean that everybody's situation is different. And, you know, and, and John, as you talked about, and there's a range of different schools, you know, and some schools have all the AP and some schools don't have any. And, you know, and for some students, you know, they've achieved, you know, some height. But it's fairly typical within their environment. And for another student to achieve that same height, it's extraordinary, given, you know, the resource and opportunities that they have at their disposal. And so that that context is always something, you know, that we're going to consider. And then of course, beyond that, again, another broken record, we're concerned with mission match. Absolutely. And it goes back to that mission. And, you know, you're clear that achievement is very important at MIT. Obviously, it's a rigorous application progress at your institution. But also you have that collaborative and team field once students are on your campus, which is why you have that 98% retention rate, which is truly astonishing. So, David, looking ahead, how do you see the college admissions landscape evolving even further at MIT? And what other advice would you offer future applicants to stay adaptable and successful in this very difficult process for many? Well, I would say, as it relates to the landscape, we will continue to make admission decisions in ways that are mission aligned. And that are in full compliance with all applicable laws. You know, and so that's what we're going to continue to do. And as it relates to advice, a couple things, you know, one, and this might, it seems radical to say, but don't try to get admitted. You know, students should certainly apply, but they should, you know, they should present their information in an authentic way and do things because they want to do them, not because they think that that's what I want to see. And then one other, I think, important thing is to keep in mind that MIT is only one place that admits a relatively small fraction of the students who apply, but there are many, many excellent places, you know, where students can go and find the transformative experience that they want in order to achieve their goals. Well, we really appreciate that. David, you've given us so much today. Before I get to the last question, I always like to ask, is there a question that I didn't ask you today or a topic that simply wasn't brought up that you'd like to share with our audience right now? Sure. And I really appreciate this opportunity because there are many, you know, misconceptions that the students have. And one of the ones that we always, you know, kind of struggle, you know, kind of breaking through is the idea that people feel like, well, you know, I hope that I can get admitted, but if I get admitted, I still have to figure out whether or not I can afford it. And to that, I would say that we make admission decisions without regard, you know, to a student or family's ability to pay, and we will meet 100% of their demonstrated need with financial aid. And, you know, this past year, we've, you know, enhanced our financial aid even further. So for families with an income under $100,000 a year with typical assets, they're going to pay nothing to attend MIT. So income under $100,000, they will pay nothing to attend MIT, again, assuming that they have typical assets. And then for families with an income under $200,000, MIT will be tuition free. And so from an affordability standpoint, you know, there is no reason why anyone who's interested in the kind of education that one can have at MIT shouldn't apply. Well, we really appreciate that. And we always remind students and their families to use the net price calculator. You could simply search MIT net price calculator. And the more honest you are with filling out that net price calculator, the better indicator you will get in terms of what you will actually pay. But I love how you broke down the families that make under $100,000. And then for those families making under $200,000, that's incredible that MIT meets 100% of the demonstrated need. David, this was awesome. You're awesome. It does lead us to the last question. What are your top three pieces of advice that you would provide students and their families getting ready for the college admissions process? Well, I think I'm going to cheat a little bit. I might have more than three things. That's fine. That's totally fine. But so one particular piece of advice for parents, and this is going to be hard for parents. And I know this because I'm a parent. But the best advice that I can give to parents is to stay out of the way and allow their students to drive the process because the students are the ones who are going to have this collegiate experience. And that's not to say that you just leave them on their own, but there are things that they're going to figure out as they're going through it. And even as I think about the trips that families make, where they drive out four hours to a campus and they get there and the kid says, no, this isn't it. And you're like, but you haven't even gotten out of the car. Yeah, this isn't it. You know, you need to kind of trust them that, you know, whatever it is that they're looking for, they didn't know what it was, but they determined that this isn't it. You know, and so it is a process and they need to figure out they don't know how to make this decision. But you need to give them, you know, some agency so that they're able to make a decision that is appropriate for them so that they end up at a place that is going to meet, you know, their needs. And so shifting from that, you know, for students, focus on fit. You know, so I talk a lot about match for MIT, but students should focus on the fit, you know, of the institution. And I would say fit really in contrast to prestige, you know, and so a lot of students are going to make a decision, they're going to try and make a decision based upon prestige, whether or not they're articulating it in that way. But they should be looking for an institution that is going to provide the kind of experience that's going to help them to get to where they want to go. And that requires them to think about, you know, who am I now, who do I want to be, and what institution is going to help me to get from where I am to where I want to go. So that's good for students. As it relates to the application, and we talked a little bit about this, they should use the application, their responses on the application to provide useful and meaningful information. You know, and so oftentimes, and again, I think about my time as a college counselor, you know, a student would bring me an essay and say, you know, what do you think of this? And oftentimes I'd get it and read through it, it's well crafted, and I would say, well, this is very well written and say, well, thank you. And I'd say, but it doesn't tell me anything about you. You know, and so if you needed to submit an application today, you could submit this, and it would fulfill, you know, the requirement, you know, but it's ultimately not done anything positive for you. You know, and so you need to use it as an opportunity to reveal something about yourself, so that, you know, the reader knows more about you than, you know, than before they started. And then the last thing, which is something that I've already said, don't try and get admitted. You know, you know, be authentic, you know, apply to places that you're interested in, certainly, but don't try and, you know, wrap yourself into a pretzel to be, you know, what it is you think that school wants you to be. You know, be who you are, and present who you are, and that's going to help you to find a place that appreciates the person, you know, and student that you are. Well, we really appreciate you, those tremendous pieces of advice, you've given so many throughout this whole conversation. I do want to repeat the advice to the students, and there was a lot there, but I appreciated how you said students look for fit, but not necessarily prestige, right? You want to ask yourself, who am I now? Who do I want to be? And which institution, and by the way, there's over 4,000 of them in the United States alone, ask yourself, which institution will best get me to where I want to be from where I am here and now? David, you're awesome. It's no wonder why you work at one of the best institutions in the entire world. We appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for your time today. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. My pleasure, and everyone out there, good luck with the college search. Take care all and best wishes. Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Cap, the college admissions process podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please don't forget to tell a friend and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and wherever you listen to your podcast. I am your host, John Durante, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of The Cap. Thank you for listening to the college admissions process podcast presented by PrepExpert. 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