126. MINISTRY + THE FEAR OF GOD (A CONVERSATION WITH JOEL FIGUEROA PT 2)

Hey guys, this is the Handlebar Podcast. We're so glad you're here. As you know, this is a conversation type of podcast where we try to answer honestly questions that you've submitted and take you through scripture and giving you Handlebars for your life. If you'd like to submit a question or purchase merch or make a donation to the podcast, you can do that through our website, the Handlebar Podcast dot com. Also, you can watch every episode on our YouTube channel. For now, let's jump in. Yeah, and so like, I don't even know how to say that honestly. I'm just mad. Made me so mad. Okay. Well, Sarah Beth is joining us now. Hey, Sarah Beth. Part of the conversation. Part two. And you know, we did part one, we did Sarah Beth walked in while we were chatting. You look beautiful in your sweater. So the sweater long sleeve shirt. It's a shirt. It's a shirt. Beautiful. Your earrings like beautiful. Your makeup looks beautiful. Okay, we're doing it. I miss you. Lisa. We're on my with the head. I miss you. Lisa too. She's currently walking right now. She's currently walking. She's getting ready to bring a niece. I know. To me and a little girl to you, a daughter. You're about to be a dad. I know. Dude, it is, it is crazy. Like if it feels surreal until I walk into her room and I see little socks and little shirts and I'm like, okay, that's not for myself or my dog or even Lisa, right? So like, there's another human skill live here. It's so crazy. Another human. That's not canelo. I know. Wait. He's not human. Yes, he is. That's why he thinks he is. That's my dog. That's my dog. I picked up Joel this morning when I came to pick him up. I walked in and he let's his opening the door and he hears. And he has his bark collar. He doesn't, he doesn't care. Okay, wait a couple days ago we did a, I did a, a, a list of hosted a birthday brunch for me at their house. And people were like, blessing me. Give me a birthday. I heard about this. And he goes, he likes sneezes under the table and luresis in the middle of blessing me. And she goes, who is that? I guess the dog. He's like, was that a kid? Was that it was so funny? Anyways, well, we are so glad to have you back Joel. We do miss Elissa. So just extending our love. She will be back eventually. Yes. Okay, we, you know, Serbeth was, she walked in on the, the tell end of our last conversation, which if you're listening to this, it was last week's episode on artistry, expression, creativity. We talked to your albums, groanings, our friendship, the years of history we have in our friendship. And now Serbeth is joining us. Yeah. And this part of the conversation, you know, we talked a little bit about the dynamics of releasing music outside the church, but then also leading worship in the church. And both of you guys have led worship together before, which has actually been a while since I've seen you guys lead worship. It's on the schedule, but I don't know if he's going to make it to that night. I hope I do, obviously. I know. And we also let us set for, and then she could have her that night, you know, after, after you guys, you were supposed to have a little hospital. Yeah, we did a set for three, four years, a long time before we were live streamed. Oh, yeah. Okay, but that set was powerful. Yeah. But I think about our deep breath. There was a lot of things oftentimes in that set. Those were the early days of us leading together. Yeah. And those debriefs were very. We used to debrief for like sometimes like an hour, which I don't recommend. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let me ask you this question, especially with where we're at with debriefs and talking about, which is very real. Because now what it's been eight, nine, ten years maybe of history of leading at some point together. How have you guys like, how are we still here? Like you are scheduled to lead in a couple weeks. Really, the practical side of, how have you guys kept your hearts clean when it comes to leading together, but also navigating hard conversations? Because those are things when it comes to leading that. Oftentimes people don't see. Yeah. Yeah. I think when your relationship with someone, whether it be a friend or actual family, which we've been both now, we're friends for a lot of years and now for the past two years we've been family. But if you, if you keep it just within the walls of like the church, then that's when it gets weird. But if you have like a, a depth to your relationship outside of the church, like last night you guys came over and we just watched the Super Bowl. We didn't talk about church. You know, we just, we were just family. We just, I won't say what we talked about. So when you have a depth outside of leading together, outside of traveling together, outside of whatever, then I think that's when it's like true relationship. How did you guys build that in that season? Because I don't remember if we were married, but we were probably dating or just going to be met. We met in Santa Barbara, California. We didn't meet there, but we like got to know each other. And you guys were doing like worship intensive. We have a prayer room. Yeah, but most of the day was like hanging out. Yeah, because you were a teen, care of, yeah, I was a nanny. And then I was there to, you were kind of the manny a little bit. I was kind of the manny, honestly, but then we both lead a person. Yes, right. Morning and night, right? Like six to eight. Larissa would knock on the door and be like, wait up, like for our 30. And that little Airbnb coach. Yeah, we could hear each other breathe. Yeah, it was crazy. But we did. Anyway. Okay. Anyway, we love Julian. Because he came with us. We love Julian. Love you Julian. So I would say, I agree with Sarah Betsett. I think I think it also helped that we were all friends doing life together. Then leading worship was secondary to the friendship. And I think that's the best way to do it. That's how it's supposed to be with the Lord. Period. Like the way that we treat our relationships where we're friends first outside of leading a set outside of leading a Sunday. Exactly. We're supposed to know him before we get to that place. We're supposed to know him outside of leading and, you know, being in the church, ministering, whatever. So it's like, that's just the order that works that he created. It's like intimacy outside of that. And then people would say, like, how do you guys do a two hour set? Did you rehearse? Did you, you know, and it's like when you have relationship outside of that place, it makes it really easy to go places. And when you don't, it's not easy. Like I'm not going to lie. There's only two or three people that I would ask if I do a set with my friend, Justice, and if he's gone, there's only two or three people. And if they all say no, then I'm going to find a replacement for the set. I don't want to just go there with anybody. Does that make sense? It takes time to cultivate. Leading and that capacity together. But I just think when you have relationship, when your relationship is built on something other than the church and then leading together, it's actually real. You know, like we told each other our breakup stories in CBS. Yes. Yes, years ago. And then you came in the picture. Let's go. Hey. Yes, sir. That was literally like nine years ago. Yeah. It's crazy. I like what you said. I agree. I actually met, we met each other right when you got back from that trip. And you had been in town. We were sitting on the front row at the church, me, you and Nihola and Serba came up and complimented my hair. So you always say that. Wait, are you serious? Was it really a compliment? Oh, see, this is what I was thinking. I think it was. But you said we're ended. Were we landed? I think I just said you're here. It was so long. And then you cut it maybe a ring or something. And then you chopped it. No, you didn't chop it. You chopped it without telling me. No, first, okay, first, he shaved his face with the long hair. Okay. I know. I don't remember that. He walked into my car. We used to go to a 6 a.m. prayers set together. That's wild. That is wild. prayers set just to like pray and be cute over a dating, you know. And he walked it to my car to like walk me in with a shave and face but not cut. His hair wasn't cut. Oh my god. I had a baby face. I mean, he probably still do a little bit if I put the shave. Yeah. He was rough. Yeah, we met right after we got back from that trip. Going to a 6 a.m. Set is kind of hardcore. What a commitment. Yeah. Together dating. That's how we did that because we started being serious. We weren't just casually dating at this point, which I don't know if we ever really casually dated. But you know the beginning when you're filling it out and you know what do I really think about this person and it's kind of awkward. Well, we were past all that. And I think we had used the L word. We had told each other. We loved each other. I think. And we knew where this was headed. We knew that we were starting to use like the language about wanting to get married. Wow. And so we had said, we might have been encouraged by someone to do this. I can't remember. But we said, let's take one morning once a week and go to the prayer room and pray together. And it was it those first those first ones were very vulnerable. Wow. Yeah, you were like, I'm going to go in this corner for about 45 minutes or so and then you can stay there and then we can come together. Well, I didn't say that weird, but I was basically like, let's take the first 45 minutes alone. Weird. No, I don't think it's weird. Yeah, but I wasn't like you stay here and it was like, let's take the first 45 minutes apart. Yeah. You go to one court and then we were the only people there. So we're just like, yeah, amazing walking and anyways, another conversation. Yeah, right. So I love this. No, yeah. And so, okay, I wanted to ask you guys about this. You guys wrote maybe multiple songs together, but I know probably the one the one I know the most is fear of God. Yes. I would love to hear the story behind the song and maybe we could talk songwriting a little bit. I also feel like that song is very timely for the hour we're living in, especially the things that are happening within the church. That song just seems to be a plum line right now for me, my heart, our community, different things like that. So fear of God. Yeah. When did we write that? Like how long ago? So I was like, I feel like I was really pregnant with my first baby. So it would have been like 2020. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I was totally. I love how you say the story about the song. Can you say it? So it was actually funny because we had a big group of us, including our pastor, and we had started on a completely different, like it was just so different the way we started. We were writing a completely different song, kind of upbeat, like kind of cheesy. And then in the middle of it, Miller's like, I gotta go, you guys, I'm so sorry. I have to go. And we were like, because most of the ideas were his. Yeah, yeah. Okay, we're starting from scratch. So we had like an hour left. In the middle room. Okay, well, since Miller's not here, what do we do? And then he had been preaching on the fear of God. And we had also just had something happen in our music community where basically our director of music was living a completely double life and had fallen away, slash left. And we were kind of just left to figure out what to do. So we were sad. We were, I don't know what you call it, but we were, we were, we were feeling heavy about it. So we start writing and we think, what could we write about? And Miller had been on a series of the fear of God. And then I had this thought, come to me of like, what would this person who's like, run away from the Lord? What would they say? What would they sing if they came back to the Lord? And like, well, they would need the fear of God, you know? So we just started the verses, "Relight the fire on the altar." It was kind of a prayer for that person. And then for the chorus, we were like, what do you say? And of course, when you're, you know, you're bowing in reverence before the Lord and all we could really come up with was holy, your holy, worthy, your worthy. And then the bridge was like, what would this person say if they were coming back to the Lord and like pledging their life again, like making a vow? You know, and that's where I'll pledge my life to you. I'm your temple, fill me with fire. Came from. So we wrote it for a friend that had fallen away. And we wrote it out of like the messages that our pastor was giving in that time. Yeah. It's really interesting that he was on a series of the fear of God when all that happened. Yeah. So it's like, it was just, there was a lot exposed and yeah. It's almost six years old then this song. Yeah. And we wrote it and it was, and then we recorded it live on Sunday or something. Yeah. And then, yeah, what they didn't put on the recording got cut off. The tables thing was about flipping the table. You remember that? Yeah, that was crazy. Man, that was, I remember that night. That night, that night was terrible. Someone actually, I think has it on YouTube, like, you know, people just ripped it and then put it back up. Yeah. We love those people. Because you've got a lot more. In our same place, you can just type anything and find it. It is. It's gonna come up. Oh, yeah. And it's like three hours long. You recorded everything. Yeah. But it was really powerful. It was like all of that, like the fear of God tied in with Jesus coming and flipping the table. Yes. And it's crazy how that can look anyway. Like it could look like sin getting exposed and somebody falls away and you're hoping they come back, but they don't. Or it could look a different way. Like it's, when he flips the tables so many things, there could be so many different outcomes, I guess, as what I'm saying. But actually, it is so true. Like when you flip a table, not just one thing falls. It all crashes. Yeah. Like in the chosen, have you guys seen that scene where it's like, I'm so stressed because the whole temple is like getting uprooted. And it's like all their stuff, all their, it's not just a table. It's like all the trinkets. It's something on it that was maybe right or it's had structure. It was mixture. It was about flipped. It's going to. Because of the mixture it's going to. Which feels like. It's on a good service. That's great. What you're saying, it feels like that's kind of a shakening that's happening to the big sea church in this hour. And which I, I don't want to go down that conversation. I don't want to really give my opinions to any of that stuff. What I want to talk about is, I think it's interesting how in that time when we as a community were walking through it, what we started going after was the fear of God, the fear of the Lord. And it seems like right now, you know, all these conversations are happening, big. Scale, big sea church around this leader, that leader, this, don't know. And there's so much and it becomes a melting pot of, there's such an easy hook that the enemy can get you in. And then all of a sudden you're a part of it and you're throwing your comp, your opinions and you're making your posts and all these things. Yet I, I think what, what I feel in this hour is a reminder of, we need the fear of the Lord. Give me the fear of God. And yeah, I just, I think it is a timely song for this hour. I think we actually have it coming out on an E.P. soon or maybe soon. It got required. It's like in the fall. That's another, anyways. Yeah. But anyways, I know that that song, the point is just the fear of the Lord, which is interesting because you're talking about that time when that's what our community was going on. Remember, we started a Bible study at our house where our fear of the Lord. And we bought the fear of the Lord books by John Bevere and everyone who was coming, we got them all a book and we're like, "Hey, we're going to read the fear of the Lord." And we invited a pair of elders to come, Phil and Melissa. And so they were driving to our house once a week to start, to do this Bible study on the fear of God in the first night. We're deep in it. We're reading the book. We're talking about the fear of the Lord. We're praying. We're inviting the fear of the Lord. And then at the end of the night, Phil and Melissa say, "All right, we're going to go home and they go out to our driveway. In our driveway, this stuff like this does not have time for us. Like we don't live in our life. We live in our LinkedIn. That's crazy. I'm going to be playing. But we live in the suburbs. But would you be surprised if you wouldn't be surprised? No, no, no, no. That's why I put my car on the garage. So they go outside, they leave, and their car is gone. Their car was long story short. Their car got broken into stolen. It took them multiple weeks to get it back. The guy drove it to an apartment and like through bricks in it. Yeah, he filled the gas tank up with sand like crazy. They ended up getting a new car. But as we were processing that weeks later, we felt like it was warfare around. Here we are saying, "Lord, we want to go after the fear of the Lord." And man, I think it's something that's so needed in this hour. I don't know if you'll speak to that or want to speak to that. I will say for me, I think with things being exposed or things coming to the light, my first reaction within me is I want to understand it. And then I also want to find out, like I want justice. But more so as more of these things keep happening, where I am trying to land, and I will say me and my wife are trying to land, is when we start having these conversations, what it's actually making us do is, "Okay, first of all, I'm not above any of that. As in, that could be me if I live by my flesh." So how and in what areas am I living kind of in my flesh and kind of by the spirit? Like God, could you come and help me in those places? Because before I point the finger, what about me? Like where am I living and compromise? And if I am and I don't even realize it, although most of the time I know when I'm living and compromise, can you help me? Because I don't want to get comfortable. Like we were talking a little bit ago of like, it just gets easier not to say something after a while. But I've learned, and I want to continue to learn, I need to tell myself before someone else tells on me. As in, I know this sounds crazy, but like, I need to bring myself to the light, keep coming to the light. And so what is being exposed in the big sea church, I'm like, "Okay, I'm not going to give a public statement on my Instagram, no shade, but like, I don't want to add more noise." What I do want to do is, what about me? Like, how is Joel treating people when no one is looking? And my algorithm, what is my algorithm filled with? And like, you know, so like, that's what I'm saying. Like, honestly, what it's leading me to and what I wanted to lead is like, man, I want to pray for those people that are publicly being exposed because I can't imagine how crazy and painful that is and how maybe even embarrassing, right? But like, that could have been me. But thank God, I have friends right now and family and God that I can talk to, but I need to continue. I can't coast. I can't ever coast in that. And I think that is what I want it to continue, continually produce in my heart like, what about me, God? You know? So. I love what you're saying, you know, and it's interesting because we were going to talk about, you know, being in ministry, worship, leading, songwriting, and in a way we are because, you know, this is the part of that world that oftentimes people don't talk about. It's like, oh, I see so and so lead. Maybe someone's seen you lead Joel or seen you lead Serbeth or listen to your vowel ball and they're like, I want to do that with my life. And we see people on platforms that inspire us in Marcus and we go, I want to be that person. But normally in those conversations and in the picking up of that calling, what's not included in the conversation is, hey, but make sure you're living a life of repentance. And remember scripture says you're going to be held to a stricter judgment than everybody else because you're a teacher, because you're a minister, because you're in those roles. And I love, I love hearing what you're saying because in a sense you're lifting up the hood of the car of your life and saying, like, hey, here's what's going on when I'm not leading. Like I'm searching, I think of, I think of David. He's going to search me and you know me. See if there's any wicked way within me. Or you know what's really wild? I was reading this this weekend. I was reading Isaiah 6. And Isaiah 6, you know, he's having the encounter in the year that King Uzziah died. I saw the Lord seated on his throne. The train of his rope filled the temple and the angels were surrounding and crying, holy, holy, holy, the doorpost, the temple begins to shake. And in the midst of this, the first thing that Isaiah says, he's having this encounter, but his encounter leads him to go, and woe is me for I'm a man of unclean lips. So he's going, well, I'm having this encounter with God, but I'm actually, it's opening my eyes to reveal, sorry, something about me that does not match his holiness. But what the Lord's really been showing me about that is that very next line, he says, "And I dwell in a people of unclean lips." And what I've been seeing in this is he's recognizing what's in me. I've actually picked up from the culture where he could go, man, the culture is their unclean lips. He's going, whoa, I have unclean lips and I'm dwelling in a people of unclean lips. Or in other words, whoa, I have a little bit of, I need something in me that's purified. That is the same thing that the greater culture needs to have purified. That thing from the culture where it trickled into him. And then the angel comes and it's touching his lips with the coal. And I'm going, man, how profound is it that instead of just pointing the finger and going, man, the coal, I'm having this, you're holy, holy, holy and I see you seated on the throne. And he could go, man, the culture needs to see you and he goes. Exactly. What's in them is in me. Purify me God. Purify me. I mean Isaiah is a minister. Isaiah is a prophet of the Lord. Isaiah is one who we would have said as the man of God. And yet you see, I think you see a value in his heart where he goes, repentant starts with me. Repentant starts here. Lord, search me, know me, try me. Am I in community? Am I walking repentance? Am I, I mean, what you're saying around that could have been me. Like I'm capable of doing that. I'm, you know, I see these leaders that fall. And I think of when I've experienced this, I've always heard people say I never thought it would be me, which makes me want to go, okay, if something's consistent here, that all of these people thought that it would never be them, well, maybe a shift for me is going. It could be me. Like I need to see myself as being able to be that person to invite the fear of the Lord. To invite the fear of God and going, Lord, search me, know me, Lord, I need you to confront me now. Don't wait till later when I'm being judged to go, hey, you had this that Lord confront me now. Can I invite your fear now? Yeah. I think about the song that we wrote, Serbeth. And I don't know if this, I'm curious to see if this happens to you because you've written a lot of other songs. But like when we're talking about fear of God, do you ever feel like you're singing these songs that are true and maybe after before, even during, you're like, oh, I actually really need to walk in this more. Like, wow, I'm singing about the fear of God. And I'm like, I actually literally need this. Yes. But I'm on stage and I'm singing, I'm realizing I need this for myself. Yes. How's that happened to you? Totally. And I think that's when that takes me from just singing words of a song to connecting my heart and my emotions to what I'm singing and actually making it my own prayer instead of just singing the song. You know, like, I think we all start with just singing the song. So when that revelation hits you of like, whoa, is me, I think that's like where the substance is. That's when people come up and they're like, oh, gosh, I encountered the Lord and I'm like, me too. So would I. Yeah. Right. And I think that's like the vulnerability in leading is really rare. Like, a lot of churches and worship leaders are just, I remember I auditioned for a specific church where they were like, we need you to make eye contact with the people and, you know, like smile at them. And I'm like, I'm not singing to them. You know, and so that's just, that's what most of the church, I feel like most churches on Sundays do. But I'm like, no, if like I, I need to meet, I heard someone I really look up to say, as a worship leader, you are leading your set, like yourself, but then also the people to your mount Sinai with the Lord, the place where Moses met with God face to face. And if you don't have that, then either you shouldn't be leading or, you know, like you're in trouble. And you don't have a Sinai to go to with the Lord, then, then what are you doing? And so I think that's always what I think is even in my prayer set today, I showed up and I was excited to do it. But honestly, I was like, I don't really, I don't really feel this. Like I don't, I think it's an hour, whatever. And then once I got past like my feelings and actually really connected my heart to the words that we were singing, that's I feel like where, where the oil is, you know, but yes, in interest to your question, that happens to me all the time. Another thing that happens to me is I'll write a song and then I'll have to live it before anything is done with it. Yes. So if there's a song that I'm like, I really want to put this out, but it's not working. I'm like, maybe I haven't lived with it. Has it ever happened to you where you write the song and then you go through what you're talking about? Yeah, totally. It's like the crazy things. Yeah. You write songs and they're almost like these prophetic pictures of what you might actually go through. Yeah. And then you have that song to like-- I want to hear yourself singing over. Yes. I'll play voice memo sometimes and be like, my gosh, I had no idea that I needed to hear these words. And I think sometimes what the Lord does with me is he's like, I want you and me to hear those words for as long as I want to before anything else is done with it. And I've learned that the hard way because I've like tried to do things with songs and it wouldn't work out, but I'm realizing, no, I, I want to like live out this song with the Lord before it's like for other people. I feel like you've done that so good because I think about your set. You've been doing this set with Justice for a couple of years now. And then I think about your album and Justice isn't it. And I think a lot of how I've seen you lead worship and write music is overflowing. It's like you're living your life and this is how you live your life. You have a piano in your house. Your kids love God. Your husband loves God. And then you happen to have songs that have revolved around that. And there is something really beautiful and maybe even rare about that because there's nothing wrong with going to a songwriting camps or anything like that. Love them. They, you get to grow as a songwriter. But when you start writing songs within the life that you're living, that is so good. And I think about fear of the song fear of God. And like, that's one of those songs where I'm like, dude, I want to live my life based on what I'm singing for the rest of my life. Because if I'm not, if I'm, there's a part of me that is not living based on what I'm singing, that song is a scary song to sing. Totally. You know? Yeah. And the only person who can lead us to that is the spirit of God. So that's actually, that is very relieving to me. Like God is the one who both sanctifies me and reveals the places that I have to be sanctified in. But I get to come to him and ask him, help me. I need you. I need you help me. So it's such, it's sometimes I think the fear of God, talking about the fear of God has, and the past has scared me because I almost understand it is, if you don't do something right, something wrong is going to happen to you. And the fear of God is clean. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. And so the fear of God is actually such a good thing. It's reverence for God. It's not just like, it doesn't mean like you're scared of God, but we kind of should be at the same time because it's these God's. Isn't there a verse that says, it's like friendship with the Lord's reserved for those who exactly hear him. And Hebrews 10 says it's a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But God is safe. So it's like, it's interesting. It's like the fear of God and reverence for God is, you are God. I am not. And you can crush me if you blink. I mean, I don't know how God can just like do something in the whole world, but just appear, you know, but he doesn't. And seeing like, okay, that God, you just, you just maybe think of like God as Thanos sleeping. I was literally thinking the same thing. Like he could snap. But really, you know, it's like, but he would never do that. But like I'm thinking, I'm thinking like, like that God, having the perspective of the God of the universe, that God that can do whatever he wants is moved by my life, is affected by what I do. So everything actually does matter. And maybe it's only scary if like you're not under his, in relationship with your relationship. The intimacy that you share with God will then also inform, oh, like God telling me no and me agreeing is a good thing because he cares for me. But then if I disobey, I am the one that suffers for it. Yeah. Me. I chose it. And so the fear of God that I, and I'm still understanding this for me is like, it keeps me in the narrow road and it keeps me safe and it keeps me being intimate with God. And so I'm not going to see something that is bad or wrong because I know it's sin. But also I really want to continue being intimate with God. And so the fear of God is clean. It keeps you clean. It purifies you. It keeps you tethered like, you know, so. Okay. I'm listening. You're talking about a song. Like you write a song and then you realize, wow, I have to walk through this song. The same is true with preaching and writing. And I, you know, homiletics, which is the art of preaching, the study of how to preach. You know, it basically, here's homiletics in a nutshell. It's you tell people what you're going to tell them. You tell them what you told them. You have an intro, three points and a conclusion. That's pretty sick. Like a sermon is like, okay, today I'm going to tell you about this. Then you tell them. And then hey, this is what I told you. Oh, that's like that. You know, you have three points. Each point needs to have a scripture that backs it up and a story or an analogy that goes with it. And if you can, you know, do that, then you are going to get an A in your homiletics scores class. And then the best sermons, according to homiletics, are if all of your points have the same, like first letter and their point. So like, love God, love people, love the city. Yes. Like those are your three points. It's like, boom, here you go, bro. So I remember my early days at the uproar, like learning to preach. Some ways I still feel like I'm learning to preach, but I remember crafting a sermon and I remember sending my notes to Miller. And I had my first two points and I was like, I just can't, I can't, it was, let's say it was an A, whatever it is. I can't find an A word to fit this third point. I remember Michael called me. He didn't even text me back. He calls me back and he goes, hey, I'm looking over your sermons. It's like sermons notes. It sounds great. He goes, but can I encourage you? And I was like, yeah, sure. And he goes, I don't think you need to craft this beautiful sermon. Just break off a part of your life and give it to people. That was the best preaching advice I've ever gotten. He said, break off a, he goes, what's God teaching you? What's something you can just break off from your life and talk about it. And it confronted everything in me because I'm like, well, how do I tell them what I'm going to tell them and tell them and then tell them what I told them and how kind of, you know, all the things in your, but then I realized man, how easy it is to get a quick revelation. I'm going to craft a sermon and I'm going to go preach it. And you haven't walked through it. You haven't carried it. You have no authority because it's just a theory at this point. It's not a deep revelation that's marked your life. But when those deep revelations mark your life, all of a sudden you get, it's, I feel like it's the same when you sing. Like there's moments I know both of you guys and you get up and you start singing something. And a room can go, oh my goodness, they're anointed. They're gifted there. But me knowing you, I know you're singing things you've experienced. You're singing things you've walked through. You're singing. It's the overflow of where you've encountered God. You've walked with God. And I'll never forget when I released Big Jesus. Remember I was so happy excited. Like my book is out. And then that season after is probably the season where I struggled with unbelief the most. And I just released a book on the bigness of God on faith, on like believing for more and greater and all this stuff. And then right after I was like, why am I struggling so much with unbelief? Why do I feel like I'm tempted to deconstruct my theology and my worldview and all of these things. And on the other side of it, it was like, wow, I had to walk through what I released. I was tempted if you would or I was tested in what I had just released. And it actually has given me the fear of the Lord for content moving forward. Where I'm like, okay, do I want to preach this message? Do I want to release this book? Do I want to fill in the blank? Because on the other side of this release is a testing on the exact revelation that I'm heralding. It's a testing on what I'm proclaiming and declaring to be true about God. And so now I've settled in. I want to release stuff that has marked me. And I think it's motivated by the fear of the Lord. As you're talking, I'm realizing, you know, we say we write a song and then you have to live it. You preach so many, you have to live it. I wonder if that is the fear of God. I wonder if that is the Lord keeping us in the fear of God, you know, of like, I don't know, it's making sense in my head. But it's like me writing a song and then having to live it is keeping me in that place. Like it's keeping me in the middle of the fear of God. Because you can't just say it. Because there's a lot of people who write songs and don't live it, right? I mean, I was in Nashville last week and there were people saying, yeah, we're so glad you guys are writing because there's a lot of people who write that aren't even, they don't even go to church. They're offended with the church and they don't even go to church. And their songs are on the radio. You know, they're putting language in the church's mouth and they don't go to church. You know, so there are, and I was shocked. I was like, what? But there are people that are writing just because it's their job, just because there are people that are putting out books, just because it's their job and they're not living it. But I wonder if when we prayed the prayer, Lord, keep me like, I'll pledge my life to you. I'm your temple, filled with fire. If you took us up on that. And that's why sometimes it feels like, whoa, why did my life just get so hard or why am I? And it's actually the fear of God. It's the friendship with the Lord. And sometimes we mistake it for warfare. But I wonder if it's actually friendship. Dude, go there. I was about to bark. I was about to bark on the microphone. You're inter-canelo. Yeah, I was speaking. You're inter-canelo. I remember every public. Everybody, like, can you blame things on the television? I just feel like everyone, myself included sometimes, will blame things on the devil. Like, I was in a conversation with a friend the other day and they were saying something and they were like, and then I just said, Satan, will you please stop? And in my mind, I was like, the girl that he's Satan. You know, but I'm like, so many people. That's you. That's the fruit of your own decision. Yes, that's the girl. You're just a little crazy. But I'm in a need to find you. You need to find you. God to mark you. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not going to go into it. But I just, I wonder if we blame things on warfare or the devil. And really, it's actually God answering the cry of our heart to purify us, to refine us, to keep us in the fear of God, to keep us in intimate friendship with him. And maybe it doesn't look like we thought it would. And I don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not saying God causes like sickness or anything like that. But it's like when I write a song and then I start living it, most of the time it's not fun. Most of the time it's, it's a refining season. I even think of Elissa when she wrote "Surrounded." She literally had to live it like a few months after she was surrounded. Oh, yeah. She was surrounded by, she was surrounded. And she had to know that it was, what is it? I may look like I'm surrounded, but she had to know that she was surrounded by the Lord, you know. And it's like, it's that story. Is it Elissa or Elijah? I always get them mixed up. It's Elissa. Elissa, where he sees the chariot of fire. But if you had natural eyes, all you would see was the enemy, right? In that story, because he's in a battle. Yeah, he's surrounded by the army, by their enemies. Yeah, but then his eyes. Like his, he's not afraid he's not moved, but his servant is. It's just terrifying. And his servants like, what are we going to do? And he prays that his eyes would be open. Right. And his opening, he actually sees, has a smile. So where the servant saw the warfare, you know, the, like the enemy, Elissa saw the chariots of heaven, like the chariots of fire. Yeah. And I think it can be the same with us. It's like, if I'm going through something hard or maybe it's not the devil, maybe it's refining unto deeper intimate friendship with God. And they're away. Like, yeah, it's like, like did you think Abraham was like, Oh, the devil's telling me to kill my son. No God was saying sacrifice Isaac. But it's like, but how do you, like, how do you know to trust God in those ways, unless you know God? Yeah, you can't. You can't. Why are you talking, you know, because you made the comment, you're like, I know God doesn't cause sickness, which I agree with that God is good. But I think I started thinking of Job and I started thinking about, you know, why I heard someone recently say this, which was really powerful, that the only thing the devil is is a tool for God to refine us by, like that he has no, like, like, he's not this rival to God. He's not omniscient. Yeah. Like, he's not, it's not like God in the devil. It's like God is not even on the same, you know, anyways, the point I'm trying to make is with Job, like Job is going to experience sickness, loss, death, all of these things because the Lord is going to allow the devil. He's going to say, yeah, you do it every once you just cannot personally take his life, right? And he's going to walk through all of these things. And then on the other side of it, which, it, it, I mean, it definitely does. I think it should mess with you. I think it should mess with our theology and our worldview. And, you know, I even talk about how, you know, people of craft sermons, but on the other side of Job's life, like he got everything restored, but he still lost kids. He's still lost a marriage. He's still like the loss was real. The loss was deep. The loss was painful. Yet in the midst of the loss, there was such a refining that happened in him and his worldview of God that on the other side of it, he was more tender. He was more humble. He had a deeper reverence to the Lord than he had before. And he also had a friends that are like, Kirsten Gottendai, like. It's so good. Yeah. You know, but he refused. The one thing he would not do is, Kirsten Gott, which he's questioning him and he's asking all these questions about I think our honest and it's where you get the beautiful, beautiful, beautiful chapters of Job. I think it's 42, 43 where God shows up. And he's like, were you there when I formed Orion? Were you there when I formed the stars? Were you there when I told the ocean it couldn't stop this far? Were you there when I birthed the deer? Were you there when I, all of these things? Is essentially telling Job Job, you have no idea who I am. You know, you've been in relationship with me and you love me. You have no idea and Job is willing to receive from God despite all of the lost and Job comes out of man. I mean, I think he's one of the top names in the Hall of Faith. I don't think he's actually mentioned in Hebrews 11, but I think of in heavens, we're out. It's like man. Job didn't get jaded and offended and turn away and run and all of these things. But I think of where the fear of the Lord met him in the midst of it. I think this conversation is important and powerful because, you know, especially as leaders on some capacity level in the church. Some of us different than others. For me, I'm working for a church. For you, you're not, but you're serving in your leadership. You kind of have a hybrid of different things, but we're all in some level serving the church. We're all within leadership of the church yet something I know is consistent in all three of our lives. But ever not in mind, you know, I'm believing you guys would call me out on it is an invitation for the fear of the Lord to keep me. You know, in our last episode, we were talking about how you have fought more for family than music. And you've done very well to go, I want to put out music and I'm going to have the conversations and I'm going to fly to this city and again and again and again. It's not that you were passive with it. Like you put a lot of hard work into it, but not as much as you've put into family and relationship and these different things, which for me, I see that and I go, wow, only by the fear of the Lord. Because otherwise, it's like, well, I'll let a little compromise hit my family here because I got, because I'm stewarding these gifts and I'm stewarding these calls and I got to get it out and also it's my job and it's where I'm going to make money and it is my paycheck. So I'm going to disregard my wife for the sake of bringing in money for my wife and it's like a slippery slope to all of a sudden. It's like marriage is broken. You're not connected. You're not sleeping in the same room. You don't relate well to each other. You're so jaded towards the church. All of these things, yet here we are still sitting on a couch and I think of the fear of God. It reminds me of the verse. What is it? A little leaven. What's the word? Leaven's the whole. Okay. Yeah. I believe it. It's like just a little bit of mixture is enough to totally throw you off course. Just a little bit. It's connecting. Because I think it would be like, when I'm sitting with the Lord in the mornings, I'm asking Him, Lord, is there any mixture in my life? Is there any? It used to be like crap I said in last night and I know I did and we need to talk about it. Now it's not so much that. It's more like, Lord, is there anything in me? Is there something my eyes have seen? Is there mixture in any way? And sometimes the answer is something that I don't want to hear. Because I'm like, man, can I just put it in here? I didn't hear that because there's no way I have to give that up. And so it's constantly coming to that place of asking the Lord, is there any mixture in my life that needs to be dealt with? And I think that is the fear of the Lord. That is the friendship that we have with the Lord where it keeps us clean. It keeps us pure. That way we don't hit a point one day where it's like, whoa, it was a slow fade and look at all of this. It starts with a little leaven. And it's going to be different for everybody, but it could be something your eyes see. It could be, I don't know, an addiction. It could be anything. But it starts with just a little bit and it may not even be like, may not even seem that bad at first, but then other things start to happen. Several months ago, that happened to me where I first saw something my eyes saw, which I guess for me at that point it was like consumerism and shopping. And I had not looked at anything on my phone for a while to try to help myself not want to spend money or whatever. But then I kind of went down this slow fade where I had been reading my Bible a lot spending time with the Lord. And then now I was scrolling a lot more. And so then it started with what my eyes saw. Then then my heart, or maybe my mind was like, oh, I want that. And then I turned to do, I need that. And then my heart was connected to that instead of to the Lord. So what I'm saying is it started with just something my eyes saw and then a thought and then something my heart connected to. And then a couple months down the road, there was things that I had done that started from that place. But it was like physical. Like, I had either bought something I wasn't supposed to. I can't remember what it was. But it was like it just started small and then it was like a slow fade. Then I was sitting with the Lord one morning and I was like, what happened? I don't feel alive in the secret place. I don't want to get out of bed in the morning, whatever. And he showed me it started here like months ago. And you've just been slowly like inching your way toward that sin more and more and more and more and more. And that has like numbed your heart. And so then when he told me that I repented, I took like steps toward just helping myself not do that anymore. And but I guess the reason I'm saying that is because for me that's what it looks like to live in the fear of God. But if I'm only like around friends or leading sets or leading worship or ministering, I don't have that space to ask the Lord those questions. If I don't have that space in the mornings or in the secret place to be constantly asking him is there a mixture in my life. That's when I'm going to find myself somewhere that I never thought I could be. But it's interesting because it's like, well, I'm in community and I'm in the church and I'm whatever. But if I'm not face to face alone with the Lord in the secret place, having him search my heart every morning, I'm going to end up somewhere that I don't want to be. Even if I'm like looking good. Do you remember, this is a couple months ago, we went to a vent, you were leading worship and we got in a massive fight the night before. I was so frustrated with you. And anyways, you're like, go to bed, go to bed, wake up the next morning, we go to the event and then that night we're in worship and neither of us were leading, we were just in worship and you're worshiping, I'm worshiping and remember I tapped you on the shoulder I was crying and I said, the Lord just spoke to me and the Lord had said, I was kind of processing Lord, I feel so fresher with Serbeth and I'm thinking the Lord is either going to validate me. Yeah, you should be because she's so. Yeah, because the Lord, I heard the Lord said this to me in worship. You've been impacted by witchcraft. And I'm like, that's exactly how I responded. Do I need to clean my ears out? Wait, Lord, witchcraft. And the Lord began to show me a show that I had been watching that I didn't even think was like this big compromise show, but it was a show that I had been watching and the Lord said, you don't know the witchcraft that's associated to that TV show. And it was causing us to fight. Basically, I start weeping and I'm like, Lord, I repent for watching that show. The Lord reveals to me it's this show and I start repenting of that show. But I repent for watching the show. You know, I'm like, Lord, I plead your blood. Lord, would you watch me of witchcraft? And then I felt the only way I could describe it was this cloud of heaviness that I did not know was there. Lifted off of me and I'm grabbing Serbeth. I'm sorry, I love you. But I think of that when I think of the fear of the Lord. And because you alluded to, you're like, it used to be in past seasons like, well, if I sin, then I'm gonna, but I know you and I know that if that were the case now, you still do those things. But when the Lord reveals, oh, this little thing I wanna deal with, you're picking up the phone, you're calling someone, you're texting someone. But I think I'm in like, I used to know that I had to do this now. But what I'm saying is you're not just doing it alone, processing with God. You're inviting community in which John will live in it. If you say you love God, but you don't live in the light, you make yourself a liar. Right. And I've watched you live in the light. So here's my question. Two questions, two parts in the Molland here. Number one, how have you guys continued to invite and live in the fear of the Lord despite the shiftings and changes of seasons, especially when it comes to being worship leaders and leaders within the church? Yeah. That's part one and then I'll ask part two in a minute. Kind of a handlebar shift here. So going back to what we've been touching on about the fear of God, because I was thinking as you guys were spitting out truth, it was so good. I feel like I'm leaving processing so much good things, bro, about the fear of God. I'm realizing that with the fear of God, I don't want to live in the light so that I won't be exposed. I want to live in the light because I want friendship with God. I don't want to be scared of exposure. Like, I want yes, do I want to live in the light. I want everything to be exposed, 100%. But I sometimes have connected the fear of God with literal fear. Like I need to have the fear of God or else I'm going to end up in somewhere. And true, that will totally happen if I'm not walking in God's way. But just as much as like a merit, Lissa, and I am not going to do something that's going to hurt Lissa, not because I don't want her to get mad at me. I don't want to do anything to hurt her because I love her, because I'm married to her, because I love that we're best friends. And so with God, the fear of God is intimate. The fear of God has helped me and continues to help me to live in the light because I love him. And I don't want to, because if I confess so that I won't get in trouble, I'm already misunderstanding something about God there. Yeah. That's true. I want to keep running to God because I know he's the safest person. He doesn't hesitate with anything that I tell him and I bring to him. He's not going to get nervous by it. And that has helped me in the midst of experiencing whether it be notoriety or songs or anything like that to go to him when people are applauding me and to come to him just the same. And then to go to him when I find that I have been compromised and to go to him just the same because best friends are best friends when you're great and when you're not great. I'm still going to pursue you. I'm still going to pursue my friends when I'm like killing it and when no one knows who I am. Because if I only pursue them when I need help, that's already kind of something off. But then I don't pursue them when everything is amazing. Like that's saying more about me than the person. And so with God, the fear of God and me wanting to keep friendship with him is I want to be best friends with you. Man for the rest of my life, even when people forget my name. So I need to live my life that way, not in this ministry mode of I need to keep going to God because I don't want to get, I don't want to end up not having a ministry anymore. That's where I can get twisted. I need to keep going to the light so that my ministry so that I can just keep ministering. No, I want to live in the light because I love God and I want friendship with him and I need him to know me because when he returns, he's not going to ask me about a lot of my songs. He's going to ask me, did you let me know you? Which is friendship, right? It's intimate. So that's where I want to keep holding on to the fear of God. I want friendship with God. So I would say that. What I'm hearing you saying is ministry is not even in the conversation. Yeah. It's like that's so secondary. And I love ministry and I'll do it. But like, I'm like, before I lead, I'm not even like leading worship and all these things that I love to do that we get to do, you know, but like, does he know me when I'm not singing? Does he, am I talking to him when I'm not singing it on the stage? I want that. So that's what I would say for me that that continues to help me. So yeah. Thank you. The question was what? How do I prioritize the fear of the Lord? Yeah. How have you continually invited it into everything you're doing? Yeah. Despite still getting on stage as leading. I think it would be too full. I think it's prioritizing the secret place, like Joel said. But then I think it's allowing trusted people to speak into my life. Like there was a season where I was a bit. I was busy, young, first time mom working as well. I had a part time job and I was leading full time. And I like me to joke while we were with our spiritual mom and dad one night. I've probably told the story on the podcast, but that I didn't have time for the secret place because I was so busy. And I don't know if it was that night or if they called me later, but basically they said we're not as suggesting, but we're telling you that you need to take at least six months off from anything public. And I was like, love that they say we're not suggesting. Yeah. And it wasn't only that. It was like after those six months were up, I called my spiritual mom and I was like, all right, I'm ready. And she was like, you know, you're not there's more. And I was like, so that's how I keep myself living that way. So you have to break through that. Like we're looking for. Yeah. She's like, all here is religion. I'm like, that's crazy. But okay, yes, ma'am. It's male. She didn't say all I hear. She said, I hear a lot of religion in your tone. That's what she said. Which she was right. Yeah. Because the religion was like, okay, I did my dues of six months. Now let me back on the stage, essentially. So yeah, that's how I keep myself grounded in like living in the fear of the Lord is one letting him speak. But maybe when I'm not open to hearing what he's saying, letting actual people say it for me for him. Yeah. Coming through. It was so good. I was on a call this last week. It was a bunch of leaders. And the person that was sharing was talking about having accountability and having people that speak into your life and someone kept dropping a comment around. The comment was, God has authority. God's my safe place. God's my accountability. God's my, which is true. True. God is authority and God, yes. God is ultimately an accountability for us. But he was saying, he kept putting these comments. It was in the chat. It was through Zoom. But he kept putting it in the chat with the motive of, I don't agree with what you're saying. I don't need to go to people. I have God. And sometimes God only speaks through people. And sometimes he won't answer you. I love how God has put people in our life to walk with us, to hold us accountable, to tell us our blind spots, to give us feedback. So I'm going to give a hand of our, and then we can land here. What would you tell? That was kind of personal. But now those that have been listening to this conversation, and maybe specifically those who want to be in the realm of leadership in the church and leading worship, what hand of our would you give them for this conversation. And mine is going to be to have people that are speaking into your life. And I'm going to say it this way. Ask this question to those that are leaders in your life. Can you give me feedback? I'm, and that's what I was saying. I'm in a season where I feel like I can't afford to not ask for feedback. And I'm not talking about, encourage me, and tell me what I'm doing is awesome. Like when it comes to this podcast, like we've, we've gotten that. We've had people that are like, man, we love your podcast. It's changing my life and praise God and glory to God. But when I'm asking that question now for pointed people, specific, intentional people in my life, hey, give me feedback. I'm saying, hey, where can I grow? What am I not seeing? What am I missing? What am I blind to? What maybe have I grown familiar with? That I don't see in allowing people to speak to that. It protects me. It keeps me safe. So that's a question. I love it. I would say for me, read a proverb a day. I know that sounds so simple. But if it's like February 10th, read Proverbs 10, because the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, Proverbs is the book of wisdom. And I have come to understand even just a little bit more what the fear of the Lord is by reading Proverbs every day. And it's like I have, like it's like my father telling me and exhorting me for the day, hey, this is what you should do. This is what you shouldn't do. Go on with life. That has really helped me understand that God has wisdom to give me every day. So I would say read Proverbs every day. Miller taught me that. Did he tell you that too? It's like it's been so helpful. Proverb a day keeps the stupid away. The stupid away, honestly. It's going to be a matter she hears this episode. She's going to say we would see stupid mommy. One would be if your priorities are off, then you'll have wonky fruit in your life. So if you're realizing through this episode, like man, yeah, my priorities are off, then prioritize number one, loving God and spending time alone with them to loving your family or friends, if that's the season you're in, and then three, loving your neighbor. People around you that maybe aren't actually your friends or family, but somebody that you could go serve. I think if you have those things in the right priority, then you're living in the lie, your in friendship with the Lord, keep your priorities straight. We'll be my head over. Fire. Amen. Amen. We love you. Thank you, guys. Maybe we can end this episode where we started and to serve out your eyes are beautiful. Your hair is beautiful. It's crazy. We shared his beauty. We just done a little. We love you guys. Thank you for listening. Love you.