MINING: Inside Tether’s 50 EH/s Mining Empire w/ Elektron's Rapha Zagury

People think that all electrons are the same right now and the sites are going out for sale in very very similar terms. There's going to be a flushing out. I think we're six months to a year away to actually getting to the point where there is a repricing and kind of like a bifurcation of the market. We've seen Greenfield size go from $1 million per megawatt, which is insane and crazy. You know, if they are high quality sites, close urban areas and have access to water, they had redundancy, right? All of these things that we know AIHPC really wants. They are going to trade with the premium and we're not going to compete for that power, we're not going to compete for no site. There's this misconception also that power is scarce. Demand leads to innovation. There's no other way around it and it's great, but it's a massive for humanity, right? There is a direct correlation between progress and energy use. And I think what we are seeing with the Cognitive, the need for our for AI for Bitcoin mining, it's actually extremely bullish for human civilization in the middle of a long trip. Welcome back to the block space podcast brought to you by CleanSpark. One of the largest Bitcoin miners in the world is also one of the most profitable Bitcoin companies, if not one of the most profitable companies in any sector. And that is Tether. Tether has been quietly growing a tax rate portfolio over the last few years, and it has 50 extra hashes of hash rate, parked with electron, a company helmed by today's guest, Rafa Zaguri. Electron is a Bitcoin mining management company that was spun off from swan's Bitcoin mining team in 2025. Now, we won't be getting into the legal drama between swan, tether and electron in this episode, but we will be touching on electrons portfolio management of tether's mining assets where electron is mining in which states and countries it is looking at mining in the future. Also, what Rafa thinks that the AI wave will mean for hash rate and what exactly will be coming next for one of the largest private miners in existence. If you're interested in why tether is doubling down on Bitcoin mining and expanding its portfolio of hash rate, while other miners are eyeing AI and HPC workloads, this episode is for you. We'll be right back. Bitcoin mining revenue changes every day, difficulty adjusts, fees move, prices shift, and that makes it hard to plan, but Luxor's here to give you a solution. Luxor pool's fixed payouts let miners lock in revenue at a guaranteed daily rate for up to 18 months. It works like a power purchasing agreement. Instead of selling your hash rate at whatever the daily FPS rate is, you lock in fixed hash price and you get paid that rate every day through Luxor pool. And it works. According to hash rate index, miners who use rolling fixed payout strategies since the last having have outperformed FPS mining by up to 15%. A 100 peta hash miner that adopted the five month rolling strategy would have produced over 5.56 more Bitcoin than from spot FPS. 5.56 more Bitcoin, y'all. It's pretty big. Fixed payouts give you predictable daily revenue so that you can plan, budget, and grow with confidence. With Luxor, uncertainty is optional. Learn more at luxor.tech/mining that is luxor.tech/mining. Hey, Charlie here. Guess what? We just announced our next Bitcoin technical conference up next. That's right, y'all. Up next is back for 2026. We're running it back after a successful event at Strategies HQ in Tyson's Virginia last year. In this year, we are bringing it to the big apple at the iconic time center in Midtown Manhattan. We are hosting the big names and projects that you recognize like Robin Linus of BitVM. Nick Jonas of Blockstream, Antoine Ponceau of Chaincode Labs and Calle of BitChat will also be present. And this isn't just for the devs. We have institutions talking with the developers. That's what Up next is all about. We have Robert Mitchnik, head of digital assets for BlackRock in the building. We've got folks from mining pools, investor funds, Bitcoin startups, and other groups. With a ticket, of course, we'll get access to all the high signal programming and networking you could want. You'll also get coffee, catered lunch, and access to the after party at PubKey. If you want to go VIP, you'll also get access to the speaker dinner following the event and an investor brunch on Friday. Tickets are capped at 300. And early bird tickets are already sold out. If you want to save yourself a spot, go to opnext.dev. That is opnext.dev. Use code podcast to save 20% off a GA ticket to the event. Ticket prices go up every few weeks. So don't wait y'all. Lock in that ticket today. We'll see you April 16th at the time center in New York City. Rafa Zaguri, welcome to the block space pod, sir. A long time coming. How you doing? Very good. Thanks for having calling. Great to be here. Yeah. Thank you for joining an interesting show. I think that most people are unaware at how much hash rate the largest company in crypto has. And also electrons position in managing that hash rate for tether. So to get us started, let's start with a little background about you and then electron. But actually first, sorry, I'm going to back up. I have to ask you, you know, as we're recording this last night, Bitcoin went from like 67 down to 64 and one of these like cascading liquidation events. It looks like what's your read on the market currently? And do you have a Bitcoin prediction for the rest of 2026? Yeah. I don't give price predictions. You know, I like to call it Ray Dahlio. It says, you know, those will live by the crystal borer or the each shatter glass, right? Partically, in Bitcoin, people, it definitely each shatter glass. The price is extremely volatile. It's a decent asset, right? And the, you know, chances of you being right at any point of time, it's very, very thin. I do think that, you know, where we are compared to where the all time high was. This is a very good place to probably position. And I think the odds are much better on the upside than they are on the downside. But again, it's Bitcoin. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes another 50% from here. Would it be surprising? Or if we see an all time high in a month, right? A reality of any asset that it's still in price discovery. And that's, I think that's a positive part that it's, it's, whenever we see volatility, we see moves like this, it just means that, you know, there's still a lot of price discovery happening. There's huge asymmetry of information, right? And for us, Bitcoiners, we look at it as like, yeah, you know, that may be an opportunity to continue to, to build a stack to buy a little bit more, right? I think the odds here are much better than they were three months, four months ago. Yeah. And it seems like we're starting to see some crash outs on the timeline. I don't know if this is true, but I saw someone say that Eric Trump is going back and deleting his crypto tweets. So maybe this is a good sign, right? When you start seeing the tourists and the pedestrian start to walk back some of their predictions and people are saying that they're done with this scam coin. Usually it's a good sign. We'll see though. I kind of agree with you. I wouldn't be surprised to see how many cycles we've seen this, right? Colin is that by the time that everybody's calculating and saying, oh, no, I'm done. That's not for me, right? I'm going to do something else. It's usually the right time to be positioned. I think it's quite as much bigger than the cycles as much bigger than individuals, right? And long term, this is very, very bullish. Yeah, I would agree to. And like I said, I would not be surprised. Like you said, I wouldn't be surprised to see us to trend downward a little bit from here, but also it's pretty depressed. It's been trading rage bound for about a month, almost a few weeks since that historic selloff on February 5th. So we'll see what happens. But to get into the topic of today's show, can you give us a little bit of background on your experience in Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining and also electron? Yeah, I'll condense. I'll try to go very quickly. I was born and raised in Brazil, right? And I think there are three things that through my life that made me very lucky. And also I think prime to rock Bitcoin, and I saw Bitcoin, you know, for the first few times. One is I always left computers. I started quoting at an early age, you know, left coding. You know, my hobby was coding. Even when I went to checkonomics, you know, I always left coding. The second one is I lived in Brazil. So I saw hyperinflation up close. You know, I grew up in the Brazil in the in the 80s and 90s, where prices would change pretty much overnight, right? And that you could see the value of money being destroyed very, very quickly. And there I think also prime me. And the third one is I live, unfortunately, through the financial crisis as well. Or was it Merrill Lynch when that happened? You know, Merrill was bought by Bank of America. I saw Wall Street completely be reignited from being, you know, something where everybody on my on my age group wanted to go work at because it was the place where you could, you know, really put your brain to work and there was a lot happening, a lot of opportunity to completely change. I think banks are their utility companies, right? And I saw that's draining off talent. I saw the changing of risk taking and I saw the change of the financial institutions. I also saw what made it collapse, right? Which were wrong incentives and broken money at the end of the day. So very quickly in my career, as I mentioned, I worked most of my career in financial services, worked at companies like Merrill, Deutsche, Goldman doing different things, mostly on the trading side. So I was a derivative trading for a while, a fixed income trading and it became, you know, an executive at banks, left the banks in 2016. I went to be an entrepreneur, started the landing thing tech and I started the boutique investment banking company. The boutique investment banking company stayed small, but it's still around the landing thing tech took off. it went for Series A, B, C, D, Series D, we raised capital from soft bank. I decided to, you know, exit the company and that's when I decided to die. Okay, it was the time to go all in and Bitcoin, really spent all of my time on it and I was doing a little bit of everything, was contributing to open source software, was reading, of course, a ton and this was back in 2022, 2023 when this all happened. Funny enough, never did too much mining, did a little bit of mining like everybody, I think just to think around and understand how things work. I remember, you know, having like a very, very old S3 and trying to plug it in and see how it would work and, you know, was surprised if I'm my energy to actually consume at the end of the month. But other than that, you know, at scale, never did anything at mining. For me, Bitcoin was a lot about thinking about bringing the Wall Street world into Bitcoin and, you know, translating things like asset allocation, efficient frontier, right? I wrote something called the Nakamoto portfolio at some point where it would help people put Bitcoin in their portfolios, right? This was kind of like where I saw was the easier for me to arrange people and to actually have some impact in Bitcoin. I have to talk about the lectern as well. Yeah, absolutely. So can you give us a quick breakdown of the company, its history, and how it got to where it is today? Yeah, so Electron now has been, you know, as a standalone company around the year and a half old, a little bit longer than that. We became the, you know, one of the largest hash rates in Bitcoin. We are, you know, this is a follow mentioned there's, you know, three months ago that we are at around 50 exohashes. It's pretty much where we still are. So that puts us among some of the largest miners in the world. Very fast growth, I can talk about the model that we adopted, you know, in the beginning we adopted a model that was very asset light. So it's kind of like got us to market quickly, scaled very fast, 100% because of tether. The way that tether has, you know, gave us the capital, the partnership that we have with them, I think it's very well aligned. And the fact that they are Bitcoiners at the end of the day also helps, right? And it's particularly now, like in cycles, in periods like this where everybody's thinking, now it's a time to step away. And now it's a time to do something else. If you are around the admit coin, if you see the long term prospects of Bitcoin as they see as we see, we actually see this as an opportunity to do several things, right? We are in 32 sites roughly in five different countries. Most of it is in the US. I don't think that's a surprise for anybody. The US, I think, is still one of the best geographies to mine and for energy assets in the world. Round 200,000 Asics that we've acquired, they're, you know, having deployed and are being deployed across the world. So that gives us, you know, some sort of idea of the dimension of what we're building and what we have been building, right? The team is relentless in execution. You know, mining is not an easy business, as you know, you are going to be thrown several, you know, things along the way, you're going to have to dodge them. You're going to have to reinvent yourself. You're going to have to rethink how you're going to do your business. You're going to have to adapt, right? And I think every cycle is different. You know, we're now thinking about what the, the next cycle is actually going to have for us, which is, you know, we should talk about adding detail because I think it's, it's interesting to see how the industry is evolving. They said, very asset light, we have started to move into an asset ownership structure. So now we own some of the sites. Very careful how we do things because, you know, this is an industry that, first of all, it's still in the, even though mining has been around, it's still developed, right? And technology changes, you need to understand what you're doing. There are a lot of amateurs still in the industry, unfortunately. It's one of the key things that I think we bring in election is that, you know, we are very institutionalized and we are very professional in the way that we deal all the way from like the hosting contracts, the way that we engage with people, right? The transparency we provide to investors that has access to pretty much everything that we do. They can see real time all the sites, you know, all the wallets, like there's nothing in its head then as it should be, right? And yeah, that's kind of like how we operate. I think it because of those things that position does really, really well. And I'm still very excited about Bitcoin mining. I think this is actually a good time, you know, even though most of our competitors don't think so, right? I think if you have the right capital structure, if you have the right partners, if you have the right team, if you have the right mindset, and if you have, you know, the long-term view of Bitcoin that we do, I still think it's a much better business than than other businesses that, you know, other competitors are shifting too. So a lot of questions to branch off from here. Before we get into some of the more pointed questions about the operational nuances of Electron and Tether and how the whole business is structured, I want to just go ahead and ask this question about where you cut your teeth with Bitcoin mining, which was you originally at Swan as a part of their Bitcoin mining program. Swan had set up a joint venture for Bitcoin mining with Tether. According to reporting at BlockSpace, for those of you who don't know, this has been a kind of big legal struggle because the way that it was structured based on documents that we reviewed and fundraising documents from Swan, Swan was actually not entitled to any of the revenue or rather a profit from this joint venture until it recouped its investment that until Tether recouped an investment that it made into Swan's mining operation. And what ended up happening is you and a number of other employees left Swan to basically join Electron, what was then proton management, if I recall correctly, to essentially run this business independent of Swan. Can you comment on anything regarding that legal struggle currently or how that all shook out? I just wanted to give you the opportunity to address that before we move forward. You know, for a reason, we've been very quiet about that. I would say that, you know, as you mentioned a couple of things there, and there have been some very false claims that were made about as an mobile team. We've disputed those from day one. The legal cases are moving ahead, right? I think there's related litigation. There's going to be near resolution soon, and we expect to conclude soon. And like the outcome will speak for itself whenever that happens, right? In the meantime, you know, we've been focused entirely on building scaling. It's where my energy, it's where my team's energy is, right? And unfortunately, we can't talk too much about the litigation, but I think it did a good job covering it. And there is going to be more about this coming up through, you know, through the legal outcomes as it should be, shouldn't be litigated on the public opinion or on Twitter or anything like that. It should be, you know, on the, on courts. That's the right. And that's more than venue for all of these things. And thank you for that. And just one more point of context, the opening salvo in this whole thing, as we covered it pretty extensively last year, believe the news broke around January and February, I believe February. So it's been almost a year since we first started reporting it. Y'all can go to blockspace.media, go to the search bar, and you just type in swan, swan lawsuit, tether, and proton, and you will find a repository of coverage on it. The one thing that really caught my eye about it was though, the original argument was that, and again, this is alleging, the original argument alleged that proton had stolen proprietary information for the mining dashboard. It didn't say anything about trying to steal a mining business. And I'll just leave that there for anyone who wants to go look more at that. We'll be keeping an eye on that story as it comes, as more comes to light through the courts. And once this gets settled, we'd love to have you back on to talk more about everything that went down. But so after all of that, you know, just fast forwarding after all that as you leave swan and as a proton, then becomes electron and starts working with tether more closely, a few just housekeeping items. Did tether have any hash rate outside of that original agreement with swan at the time? You mentioned asset light. How did electron end up evolving with tether to build up to 50 exa hashes? Like, yeah, give me a, how long did it take y'all to get to that point? Yeah, good question. So tether does have, you know, does still has some hash rates outside of of electron. So the evolution of this was a following. So tether has around 150 portfolio companies, right? Everything from real estate to gold companies like soft public and cation, you know, tether transparency and they had that coaguro is a huge investment that they made, right? So they have a lot outside of there. They of course have their liquid portfolio, but they have an ill-liquid portfolio that invests in different things, right? Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining is, of course, a focus area because of everything that tether does. And then in mining, they've invested in a ton of companies, right? And a lot of these I think are public, some are not public, but one of the efforts of their internal efforts in the last few years have been trying to consolidate things into, you know, managers in areas they're doing well. And in mining, we're, you know, and it's there, they're worse, like we did it better than anybody else. So they gradually consolidated some assets and some mandates with us, right? We're still going through some of these analyzing, if it makes sense, doesn't make sense. Some of them just don't make sense, right? For example, they had the mining lure ride that was a legacy site, you know, very bad terms that they had in terms of energy there, got their fault just the way that things evolved, right? And it didn't make any sense to continue there. And they existed that, right? But there are others that do make sense in the US, 100% of course, the the hash rate that they have is with us. And then outside of the US, opportunistically, where it makes sense, we take a look at at other things as well, right? There are still other things that we're thinking about. This is an ongoing process about how it makes sense to consolidate, if we're going to do it, if we're not going to do it. On top of all of that calling, I think that it's what I mentioned at the beginning, the way that we operate, which is very institutionalized, right? And like we do things that you would think would be basic, but people just don't do in the industry, right? You know, we're going to do an investment, we write an investment memo, we do analysis, I love running numbers, I'm very data-oriented, right? So we'll have models upside down of everything that we do. By the way, one of the things we are considering doing is that, you know, we've written a ton of research like in Asics, the history of Asics, the evolution of Asics, you know, looking how efficiency happens all over time. As an example, we have models, we're going to open source all of that at some point. I've been working cleaning up that code to put it out there, but it does, I think highlight the way that we think about everything, right? I always say that you either run the numbers or the numbers run you over, right? So we always run you the numbers and we're always going back and analyzing, re-analysing things. And I think that resonated really well with Tether. And they're very good partners, they are Bitcoiners above and for most. I think that, you know, they are some of the best Bitcoiners I've seen out there. It says that, you know, they've seen the good, the bad and the ugly and the continue to support Bitcoin, the continue to think long-term as you should. And there's the other side should then say, you know, the way that they look at Bitcoin investing. Mine is a good, if you think about that in an asset allocation basis, if you just buy Bitcoin, by the way, this is something they ask me all the time, like should I buy Bitcoin or should I mine? And, you know, since we started this from the beginning, I always answered the question the same way, which I think is the right way. There's just buy Bitcoin is much better than mine. You know, most of the scenarios are going to be better off just buying Bitcoin. But the reality is that, you know, there are scenarios where you're going to be substantially better mining than buying Bitcoin. Historically, personally, recently, you haven't seen scenarios like that, which is, you know, simplifying a lot. If you have a scenario where a network hash rate does not grow nearly as much as Bitcoin price, you are going to be much better off mining than you are buying Bitcoin, right? You also, you smooth out your returns a long time, so there's the benefit of that. So, on an asset allocation basis, you're better off not being a hundred percent just buying Bitcoin, but having some allocation to mining as well. You're going to have smoother overall returns. The same way that, you know, you would add an asset with very high volatility, even if it has lower chance of performing than another trope portfolio, because it lacks correlation to your regional thesis, right? So, in a scenario where your asset is performing really well, I'm going up, this, this asset maybe is underperforming, but the opposite is also true, like when this asset is underperforming, your other asset can be performing up, right? And kind of smooth on your returns, and, you know, that's what you want, right? The end of the day, one of the key things that, you know, the company's miss a ton is that you want to have predictability. Now, a lot of things that you do, and this increases your chance of having a more predictable business long term, right? So, yeah, that's how we've, the partnership with Tether has structure. We've aligned incentives with them, I think, from the beginning as well, and the way that we do things, you know, if that we perform, they make money, we make money, right? Everybody is happy if we don't perform, you know, that's the way you should be. You know, there's no payments. So, when you say consolidated, when you say Tether is consolidating with electrons, specifically you're talking about they have chosen you all to be hosting providers for their hash rate. Am I understanding that correctly? And you manage the machines for them? For some, yes. So, we've managed the machines for some of their operations, right? For others, there's still continue to be independent, could be for several reasons, right? Could be a geography, we don't want to be in right now, right? It could be because the company is not set up right now, for us to be managing them. But to gradually, the thought process is that, you know, we will come in to try to help in some sort of way to better manage the hash rate. Understood. Just two more housekeeping things. When you say Apollo tweeted about 50 exohashes, that's specifically under electron or that's just Tether in total. No, that's electron. Oh wow. Okay, so they even have more on top of that outside of electron. Wow, that's incredible. And last question, sorry, I just need to get all the housekeeping ones out of the way. This is Tether's self-owned hash rate either with electron or outside of it, or does Tether also host or have contracts or JVs with other investors for Bitcoin mining? No, they don't. What they have, they're having fast, but in other companies, like it's their investment and bit the air, for example, it's public, right? So they will do other investors like that, but in hosting, they don't, they don't host for anybody. Okay, but so any, any mining that they have or that electron is managing for them is just Tether's, is Tether's holy-owned fleet as a part of their business. Yep. Okay, interesting. So a lot of places that we can take this, I think maybe the best place, at least for me to start kind of just peeling back the layers of this, is just to ask the question of why, why is Tether so interested in mining Bitcoin? I mean, you know, this maybe seems like an obvious answer, maybe not depending on who you're talking to, but when I like step back and look at Tether, there's obviously the surface level, they run USDT, which is the largest stablecoin. They make a lot of money on the, on interest for the T-bills that they hold for that and other dollar-like instruments that generate yield, but they've also got this gold-backed currency as well. They hold something insane, like a hundred plus tons of gold. They've been buying that up in boatloads. They got a Bitcoin treasury and they also have this Bitcoin mining arm. And it seems like they just have their finger in basically any pie they can find that has to deal with monetary matters. What is the benefit for Tether for running a Bitcoin mining operation to your understanding? Yeah. So, yeah, so that's to my understanding, right? Just to be clear, I don't work at Tether. This is all based on conversations and in all things. And some of these things I actually probably know less than you do. But my understanding is that they, you know, hard assets is at the core of what they do. So, if you think about Tether's balance sheet, right? As I mentioned, simply by thinking about they have their liquid assets, which are the treasuries, you know, everything that we know about that, which is extremely liquid as it should be because it's backing their deposits and that they have an illiquid part of their portfolio, right? On that illiquid part of the portfolio, there's a very big focus on looking to hard assets because that's diversification, long-term, that's probably about optimizes the chance of, you know, that they're being around. And that's being true for real estate, that's being true for Bitcoin, for Bitcoin mining and for other assets. And for gold, right? And other gold mines, other things that they being fast is kind of like their hard asset buckets, right? And specifically about Bitcoin, remember that Tether started because of Bitcoin because, you know, of crypto and it should begin with, right? So Bitcoin, you know, as a core treasury asset is very strategic for them. It is, it has been the thesis from the beginning. Some of the Tether guys would tell it like, you know, never thought that Tether as an asset would pick up, no, it had it dead as quickly as it did, right? And I think they monetize and capitalize extremely well on it, but it all came from Bitcoin, right? The other thing is, though, it goes back to what I was mentioning, I think it does provide better diversification, just in terms of returns, right? If you just buy Bitcoin and let it set inside, you know, as idle capital, as a treasury holding, nothing wrong with that, but you're having, you know, a business behind it that can be generating income that, you know, you won't kind of like the tail side of the returns because as we discussed, right? If you have scenarios or mine is going to do substantially better than Bitcoin, than just buying Bitcoin, it does have added values to that. I always say that, you know, you want to own as much optionality as you can in different business. I think Bitcoin, mine, it kind of opens doors to other optionality that you just wouldn't have by holding Bitcoin. You know, one example, just as one example is that, you know, as load balancing, as working with utility companies, things like that, if you're just on Bitcoin, you're never going to have that optionality, right? Even the AIHPC, Bitcoin mining is closer to AIHPC, which doesn't mean you're going to do that now, but having that optionality, being able to pivot to that area, it's how you optimize the potential outcomes for your company, right? So Bitcoin, mining, for teller, if he opens, you know, a series, and we can go into these in details because it's something we look at a lot, but it opens a series of new doors that you potentially could in the wrong term also make businesses capitalized, learn from it, right? It's errors that could have synergies with other areas of your business. Like one example, the own adecroagro, adecroagro has energy generation, right? Does it make sense for them to do Bitcoin mining, right? So, I think there are many, many different ways that you look at Bitcoin mining and you can see that why it makes sense for them as a core investment, as a strategic investment, just compare to just only Bitcoin, right? So, just compare to only Bitcoin, there are options, there's benefits, right? And a portfolio is overall, that's massive benefits, that's true. Yeah, but as you mentioned, cash flow is king. I mean, that's been one of the biggest problems with these Bitcoin treasury companies that have come up recently, right? You can look at strategy, but I think they're kind of in the league and their own because they started this whole thing, they're the blue ship within this cohort. But for the rest of them that cropped up last year, they all have these narratives that we're going to have cash flow businesses, right? And this is part of why this is part of why Nakamoto holdings is now purchasing BTC ink, which is the parent company of Bitcoin magazine, Bitcoin conference and UTXO management, their investment arm. But David Bailey started BTC ink, starts Nakamoto, right? And they want to hitch their wagons together so that they can actually have cash flow businesses to make sure that there's not just this dynamic of what we're going to do. to dilute you and then we're going to buy more Bitcoin, right? And one last note too about sometimes it does make no sense to mine Bitcoin versus buying it outright depending on the person as well who is doing it or the entity. You know, my dad is a gold bug. He couldn't really bring himself to buy Bitcoin, but for whatever reason, mining always really appealed to him. So I kind of troge and hoarse to him and got him to mine. And we were running the numbers when I was home last and he goes, well, I would have been better off just buying. And I said, exactly, but the thing is, I knew you weren't going to do that. So I just had you buy an ASIC instead so that you can start building your portfolio, right? So, you know, funny story about that. I have a friend who is, it should be a fixing come trader like me, right? And the way that I converted him to actually start looking Bitcoin was also mining because what I told is that think about the nasic as being like a fixing come bond, right? That you're putting principle in it and put the principle and then it will daily give you cash flows and Bitcoin, right? And what you need to figure out is that where are your expectations of Bitcoin price and that's where cash rate and then you can kind of like just calculate that as a bond. And he loved it. It's like, oh, that I can get my wrath. My head around it, right? There is this perception that mining is bad business, right? That it's unprofitable and you touch on it. I think one of the key reasons is because a lot of miners just, you know, have the right capital structure in place. It's an extremely capital intensive business, right? And thinking about the right capital structure one that you don't have massive levers that you don't have massive interest rates that you don't have massive dilution to investors, it's critical. Otherwise, it's going to be unsustainable in the long term, right? Because one of the things going to happen either you're going to die with your shareholders, you're going to go bankrupt, right? Or even worse, you're not going to invest in the business and gradually you're going to end up with an older fleet and then yeah, you are going to be unprofitable if an older fleet along the right, right? I always go back. I feel institutional investors always ask me like, oh, but tell me about the economics of mining. I tell them like, oh, they're not going to go too far. Just look at the economics of, you know, a newer machine, get an S21 XB Hydro, for example, right? These are machines with energy break evens that above 10 cents per kilowatt hour, right? That, you know, at five cents, you're mining at like $33,000 per Bitcoin. So the economic after machine is good, right? There's something else there that you, it's letting companies not be profitable. You have to ask yourself what it is, right? Is it because the capital to buy the machine was expensive? Was it because they don't have those machines? They have older machines, right? Or is it because, you know, they're overlaverage and they can, they can pay for it, right? And unfortunately, I think that's a lot of what has happened through our industry. And we're seeing the results, you know, across many, but not all, but then across many of the companies out there. We are Clean Spark, America's Bitcoin miner, a publicly traded company with the largest operating hash rate powered entirely by self-operated infrastructure across four cents. This is what we look for. We are setting the standard for what's next. Learn more about the intersection of energy and Bitcoin at Clean Spark dot com. Going back to the operational side of things for electron and tether, what countries are y'all operating in? You mentioned the US. Yeah. Maybe if you could just as much detail as you're loud to give, which states in the US and which other countries around the world do y'all have operations in? Yeah. I don't think any family in Ontario is a surprise. Like in the US, Texas is our biggest state. Right. We are in Oklahoma. Yeah. Exactly. Like that, that doesn't shock anybody. It is something actually we are trying to diversify. Not because we don't like Texas. Texas is a good place for mine. I think it's the best place in the world to mine. You still have ample energy availability and a very well, definitely well regulated market. Right. A lot of clarity. But it's important to diversify. And I think, you know, we've been looking at other places. What I love in the US is that the states like to compete with each other. So things like, you know, say as a new stacks and other things are actually in front of some of these discussions right now, which is great to see. Well, we are in Oklahoma. We look at Wyoming. I mean, there's a little bit of everything in the US. But Texas is that that Texas and Oklahoma are the bulk of our operations. Then we are outside the US in Norway. We've been in Norway for a while. Not looking to really expand in Norway. In Norway, I still think it's a regulatory environment that it's a little bit uncertain of where it's going to go. We have huge sites here, but we have some presents. We have one small site. We're managing Canada, but it's small. And we're in South America, in two places. I have a funny story. I've been, since I started mining everybody, you know, kept asking me like, what about Brazil? You know, Brazil so well, you know, so people from there so well, right? I think because I knew Brazil really well, I never really liked getting here because I know it's too well. But the reality is that there are good things in Brazil built a massive amount of renewable energy that was, you know, incentivized for like decades. And the result is that if you look at, if you look at the northeast of Brazil, it's like this coastline that it's extremely sunny. It's fairly close to the equator, extremely windy. So it's one of the best places on the earth for a solar and wind power. So they built a ton of generation there. The problem is that they overbuilt and they can't have put back to the grid, right? So as I started, it's a funny story. I started having conversations here in Brazil with energy companies like, yeah, we're looking to mine and oh, let's take a look at the site. And they kept telling me about this problem of curtailment. Oh, there's curtailment, curtailment in Brazil. And I told him like, oh, no, we have curtailment in Texas. I don't like curtailment. And it told me like, you don't understand. When we're talking about curtailment here, is curtailment at the power generation site, we have to turn off the turbines because we can't put more energy to the grid because it will stress the grid. And so that for me, like, oh, that's curtailment. I like a lot. Let's discuss, you know, getting Bitcoin mining containers to these places and we'll start mining, you know, whenever you don't need the energy, right? By the way, great, great location for older generation ASICs, right? They can just put them in there and say, yeah, you know, this is free energy. This energy, you were going to be thrown away. We could mine there. So that it's all to say, we have started mining in Brazil. We have a site here that started mining earlier this year. Very excited about Brazil. I think there are some good opportunities to explore outside of the US. It's probably the country where we want to expand significantly next, right? And we always look at the markets. We look at, you know, we're looking to a month. We're looking at the Middle East and a couple of places. Ideally, you know, I tell the team, I think it's better if we deploy like small amounts everywhere and start to pass. And some of these are going to be disastrous. Some of these are going to work out. And then we scale with time, right? So if you make a mistake and make a small mistake and you just, of course, correct. And if you don't make a mistake and they hit the jackpot and one of these places and actually really have low energy and it's exciting. Just went back to Brazil. I think that's the other area. I talked about optionality in the beginning. The fact that the conversations here are happening at the utility level. The utilities are starting to understand that, oh, this is a kind of load that, you know, they didn't even know that it existed, right? I tell, when I still tell some of these guys, I go, no, you can turn miners off like in a heartbeat. Just tell me, and then five minutes, everything is off, right? And then whenever it's, you need to turn on, it turns on and five minutes as well, right? Of course, we don't want to be turning on and off because that will be bad for the machines, but it's extremely flexible. So having these conversations around telling them first that, you know, I don't have clients at the end of the day, the bit, my clients, the Bitcoin protocol, right? And the Bitcoin protocol doesn't care, you know, if I'm turning on and off, right? We continue to charge along. And that that kind of changes the way that they see a Bitcoin money as a consumer of power. And these conversations, I think are the interesting ones and that they are going to happen more and more, right? I think as we have everything else, a lot of utility companies are going to probably try to mine, but then they're going to realize that this is, and some of them are already that this is a different skill set that you need to have kept, though, in each understand how to source the machines, which machines to source, how to deploy the machines, right? It's a very different business than what their use should be doing. They're going to try, we've seen, they're going to try to go out by machines from Bitcoin or whoever, right? I think forever to deliver. Then they're going to get them installed. It's not going to work that way they expected. And for us, I think that's a massive opportunity. That that we do well, right? We can deploy hash rates very, very quickly. You mentioned of, you know, it's nice to deploy in small containers like, you know, just have these smaller deployments to feel an area out. You mentioned some disastrous ones. Are there any places that y'all have tried or looked at and just said, never again, we can't do that. Yeah. I feel like what's going to happen. It's fantastic. There were, you know, the lessons that we've, we're from the beginning we've learned in this industry is that people will absolutely over promise and under deliver much all the time. And there are a lot of people that don't do it, you know, because of bad faith, they just don't know, right? They are, they're in inexperience in what they do. So we've had hosts that we've hosted with, that we ended up having bad experiences. We move on. The ones that we like and they were operating well, you know, we definitely scaled with them. The same way we had geographies, we had regions that we went through as a, yeah, never again. This is, you know, regulations are much worse than we expected. There could be something that, you know, which is our fault. We never stopped, like, really understand the local community. to how things work in that area, right, they need to try to get permits and the permits to move, right, and gladly, whenever that happened, it happened at, you know, small scale as it should. It's a big principle, I think, for anybody operating at large scales, I'd never try something in you at large scale, because if you're mistaken, you're going to pay dearly for it, there's something to be said about the IHBC on that problem, we can talk about that later. I think a lot of people are trying with big money behind it, and you know, it's risky. Some of them are going to succeed very well, but it's very risky business. In our case, you know, it's a principle, we always try to make, you know, we're going to be mistaken a lot, but when we are mistaken, we want to be mistaken by a small fraction so that we can cross-correct and adjust quickly. I'm glad you mentioned the IHBC expansions and pivots because it's all, anyone can seem to talk about anymore. It's actually really nice to have a Bitcoin mining focus podcast because I feel like nowadays they're either just AI-focused or kind of a hybrid where I'm kind of asking both. So we will veer into that right now for just a couple of questions. I think first to start, you mentioned going, moving into Brazil as being a very promising market. I also couldn't help but read your, you know, we're looking to diversify out of Texas as maybe precautionary because we had a show recently with Tom Kleckner, a RTO insider correspondent who's reported on the air-cott market for, I believe a few decades at this point, talking about the changes that air-cott is weighing to make sure they can manage large load interconnections. I can't help but read your comments about Texas in some ways as being, trying to maybe get in front of the problem in the sense that with all of these data center companies moving in there, the demand for power there is going to be largely outstripping the supply and also you're going to have these AI companies coming in and bidding up more than what Bitcoin miners might be able to pay for, right? And then you mentioned also Brazil as being a really, you know, potentially lucrative opportunity for Bitcoin mining. Just curious, how do you model or how are you looking at the AI and HPC boom in terms of how it made disrupt electrons operations or how is it changing how you all consider going and finding power or create obstacles for that? And what regions you might consider moving in to to expand hash rate in the future? I think when we think about one, a lot of this is happening already, by the way, a lot of, you know, the demand for high quality sites is already off the charts, high multiples are being paid, right? We've seen sites go pretty much on Greenfield's size go for a million dollars per megawatt, which is insane and crazy. You know, if they are high quality sites, closed shorebon areas and have access to water, they have redundancy, right? All of these things that we know AI, HPC really wants, they are going to trade at the premium and we're not going to compete for that power, we're not going to compete for those sites, right? It makes zero sense in terms of economics for us to pay any of that, right? I think what the market hasn't realized yet is the fact that, you know, there are sites are just not that, right? Either don't have redundant power or they are remote, they're not in good locations, they're far away from their binaries, right? And these sites are going to initially what's happening if there's, there's a lot of still of interest in talking about these sites for potentially AI, HPC. And we've seen a couple of these deals where people come in, do do diligence, you know, everybody's excited, but then they got to the end and you know, they bring a high-per-scaler in and they're like, oh, you didn't check, we have 10 boxes that had to check, we check seven, the other three are really important, we're not going to sign a contract with you, right? It takes time for that because, you know, everybody, because there's so much excitement, people think that all electrons are the same right now and the sites are going out for a sale, you know, in very, very similar terms, until at least in the beginning, there's going to be a flushing out. I think we're six months to a year away to actually getting to a point where, you know, there was a repricing and kind of like a bifurcation of the market. And that happens. I think there's going to be an opportunity to acquire sites. I'm talking specifically about, you know, the high demand areas like taxes and others, right? Outside of the world, there's so many opportunities, you know, there's, there's this misconception also that, you know, there is power is scarce, there's, there's ample opportunities in power in the world out there like we don't have enough bandwidth to actually go through all the opportunities like that land in our desk, right? A lot of it, of course, are, you know, waste of time, but there's a lot, there are many good opportunities in gas and, you know, in solar, wind everywhere in the world that, you know, I think we are going to see a boom in energy development, which is another thing, another point for all of this, right? There's no other way around it. It takes time, right? And then when you have innovation, it tends to lower costs as well. I think we're going to see a lot of innovation in energy and energy markets in the next decade, right? And it's great, but it's a massive for humanity, right? And I think what we are seeing with the, the need for our, for AI, for Bitcoin mining, it's actually extremely bullish for human civilization in the, in the middle of a long term, right? It's going back to a short term, I think we are starting to see some of these cycles, you know, come out, but right now it's not the time to compete for, for these sites. The second point we mentioned, which is specifically about taxes, regulation, our concerns actually even, you know, maybe more pedestrian than that. I'll tell you, like last year, when the tariffs hit, we had machines that were, you know, about to be imported in the US, some of them from China, but some from Malaysia, some from other places, right? And we literally had to scramble to get, like, you know, freight airplanes to put our machines in, bring them to the US. And that made me realize that the place in the world that I thought, you know, here we have rule of law, everything's stable, everything's predictable, right? Guess what? And that not so much, right? Maybe for a good reason, bad reason or not getting to the politics of that, but as a business operator, that created a lot of headaches for us, it could be have been catastrophic for our business, right? You know, imagine we have machines that have to come in, and if I had to pay twice the amount of machines for machines that were coming in, it would become an economical for us to actually mine, right? So that reason why we explored Brazil is that, you know, we had machines to push, push, come from China to the US, like, okay, where do we place them? And Brazil seemed like, you know, a decent enough choice. And it's one of these things, right? You know, when things really change, you have to adapt and that opens the thing a new opportunities. And that's kind of like, like I said, well, at this case, even with all the challenges of Brazil, I still think it makes sense. You'll get in mind there, right? And then as we started to look, you know, Brazil is actually a very, decently regulated market for bringing machines in, right? There's decent regulation. How important them? Yeah, you pay taxes, but then you have, you don't have sales and tax, sales and use taxes, as you would have in the US. So you make, you run the numbers and you kind of like understand, okay, here, here's all things going to happen, here's all things going to happen, and diversification optionality back to the same point is always that more optionality is better than less optionality, right? So our diversification is coming much more from that front than anything else. The specific issues with taxes, little less concern, but yeah, they are concerning. The good thing is that we, most of the sites we have, in fact, as we host. So worst case scenario, if something happens, you know, we can just pick up the containers and leave both somewhere else, right? Not what we want, massive opportunity cost, but ultimately, you know, the business lives to fight another day. The final thing just to go back to AIHPC, we can go into and we should, into like a broader discussion about the two business models, which is, I think there's going to be also a cleansing and the cleaning of the AIHPC business, you know, through the next three, five years, the good operators, of course, are going to make a ton of money, are going to thrive, are going to do really well, the ones that really focus on capital structure in the right way. I think they're going to do extremely well, but there's going to be a lot of them. They're not going to make it, right? It's going to be very, very hard. It's a very different business than Bitcoin mining. And I actually like the fact, you know, about that right now. I think we are probably the only Bitcoin miners at scale that are 100% focused on Bitcoin mining, right? I mean, we're not going to AIHPC. We may long-term, but it's not our folks, we do it well. You know, our profit margins are Bitcoin mining. They are very, very good and very healthy, right? The other thing I forgot to mention is we're an extremely lean team. If you look at our S-GNA-S percentage of revenue, we're talking about numbers. There are less than 5%. Look at the pub. Close. None of them are anywhere close to that, right? Some of them have S-GNA-S percentage of revenue, it's like in the 20% range, right? That's actually quite common, depending on the quarter, you know, and that's just cash base. That doesn't include share-based compensation, but you know, a good public miner is, you know, if they're at $10 to $15, that's pretty good. Just for our listeners, you don't run these numbers. Some quarters has gotten as much as like 40 or 50%. I won't name any names, but it gets pretty crazy. Last quarter, we were at 3.8%. So that tells you why, you know, we will survive. We're in the left, because you're going to look at all these cross curves of the industry. I'm going to say, yeah, these guys mine at $60,000, $70,000. That's not include S-GNA, and include S-GNA, we are at the far left end of the cross curve. So, you know, this is another reason why for us, it doesn't extend to shift now, you know, we'll stay where we are. We're just going to keep our coirce, yeah, there is, you know. I'm, you know, Brazil, I don't know if you know this, but we had a very good Formula One driver or it's on Santa, right? Back in the, in the day, Santa actually, you know, was a hero in Brazil because it was through a time that Brazil really didn't have much to cheer on. He was a killer when it's rain and he had the phrase where he said, "Listen, on sunny days, it's very hard to overtake people. When it's raining, I can overtake 15 cars in a lap, right?" And he did. There's, if you go, there is a clip of him. I think it was done into a park in 93 or something like that where in the, it's raining. He starts kind of like in the back of the field and he pretty much passes the whole field in one lap, right? So I'm not trying to compare as with Santa, but I like that it's raining and I like that, you know, we're keeping our course and, you know, this is when we're going to overtake people and I think this is an opportunity for us. Maybe we're wrong, maybe between mine is dead, maybe it's not, never going to come back again, but guess what? Mining by definition has a self-correcting mechanisms for the difficulty adjustments, right? So if we stay where he is, if hashbrite continues, but it is, right? We're having a conversation this week, you know, we're running some numbers, we're running some models and, you know, we're looking at the next having, we're like, "Well, if our predictions, you know, if you just put linear predictions, like hashbrite is going to go down, it's going to be a $20 after the having, how is anybody going to survive that?" And we were debating about that for a while and we're like, "Guys, you know, at $20 for better hashbrite day, right?" That's my majority of the miners are not going to be mining, right? Because unless you have S21s and S23s and you have low energy costs, you're going to have to shut down what percentage of the network we're talking about that are actually, you know, newer generation machines. 20, 30%, maybe, right? So that means that 70% of the network will be off, which means that, you know, hashbrite will need to drop. There's necessarily, there's an auto-correcting mechanism to that, right? So our playing Bitcoin mining is exactly trying to, you know, survive longer than, than, and, you know, stay on for longer than others cannot, right? And I don't think that has changed. I actually think that's, it's the right time to probably be doing that right now, right? I'm glad you mentioned that because that kind of feeds well into my next question, you know, with these AI pivots and the HPC pivots, you're going to have, even if they go, I mean, you know, even if they do go bust, it's hard to say whether or not some of these public miners will be able to go back into Bitcoin mining. A lot of them are divesting of their fleets right now. They're selling them into the secondary market. You know, you have basically, you know, off the top of my head, you have at least, at least 200 extra hashes right now. That is in question as to whether or not it will remain online from now until the next having, if these public miners get what they want, with pivoting doors, AI and HPC. Now, a couple of that was the fact that Bitcoin's price is depressed right now. Therefore, hash price has just recently hit an all-time low. Mining margins for most miners, like you said, are pretty thin right now. There are a lot of miners are treading water. If you could, maybe not look into the crystal ball because we don't want you to eat any glass, right? But if you were looking to some, you know, you talked about running models and being really a models heavy guy, what did your models say and what does your gut say about what we should see from Bitcoin's hash rate over the next year or two? Because it's really hard for me to look at it and think, we'll see comparable growth to what we've seen in prior post-having years, right? Even in bear markets. I think Bitcoin's hash rate grew at one of the slowest rates ever last year. I could see an argument for it stagnating over the next year or two. What do you think? Yeah, so let's look at some numbers, right? So we hit at the all-time high of hash rate, we hit an estimated amount of like 1.275 and Zadahashes, right? We saw it like already one of the largest drawdowns in Bitcoin history, right? If you look at the bottom, so we went 1.275 and then it hit 800 exohashes. This dropped on. It's one of the largest in history already. Of course, we had bad weather. Of course, we had, but you know, like the still massive drop in hash rate. So I think the early signs is that the growth that we signed the past probably is not going to endure in the future, right? I go back to the core thesis of Bitcoin and mining, which is, you know, I don't care so much about, you know, of course I care, but it's much more about the how the percentage of growth in network hash rate is going to compare to the percentage of growth of Bitcoin price. And I think the odds on that right now are extremely favorable to anybody mining, right? Because Bitcoin price, as we discussed in the beginning, I think the upside from here is probably much more positive than the downside. And then on network hash rates, right? I think that we are going to be seeing a period of probably relatively stable network hash rates for the next, at least for the next year, right? Everything you have to remember is that new hash rate coming to the network needs to come from somewhere, right? And it usually comes from newer machines hitting the market. There is no demand for ASICs at large scale, right? Now we know this. Like there's nobody buying machines at scale other than us, right? Think about also manufacturing, right? If you are a micro-BT bit main, right? You need you need to start planning for 2027, 2028. You know, what they're delivering now was based on what they see that saw the last few years, right? There's the least time around that. And, you know, I don't know anything about how they're planning their future, right? And they're probably not as optimistic. They cannot be, right, as they were, as they were before. So that's all very, you know, bullish for the way that we look at network hash rate and how it's going to grow at the end of the day, right? There's also something happening, which is people still trying to mine, you know, even though even the guys here at their pivoting, they're still mining, right? They're still leaving the margins are very, very thin. They're still there because it's better than not consuming the energy. They're going to try to sell their machines in the market, right? As you said, as you said, a lot of them are trying to sell the machines. And that's going to put pressure down, I think, in machine prices for the next six months, a year, definitely happening already, even in newer generation machines, right? You can buy them at the significant discount from where you were last year. So again, for anybody that stays on this business, I think this is the, this is the perfect setup, right? You are, you have a place where you're buying machines at a low potential lower plot price, network hash rates, the probability of hitting crazy significantly is not as it was before. And Bitcoin price, you know, where it is. I think you have potentially much more upside and you have downside, right? So when you put all of these things together, I do think this is the right time to actually be thinking about going to money and not exit thing, right? But I understand, like the public companies, they need to maximize shareholder value. And honestly, this is the way they maximize shareholder value right now, right? Is that going to be the market rightly or wrong way? You know, for me, the market is always right, the market is sovereign, right? The market is paying a premium for that. But long term, being a contrarian, also, you know, a lot of time space out, right? Because this is the theme right now, this is what the market is paying for the next quarter. Is this what the market is going to be paying for the next 10 years? I don't know. I would rather be on the other side of this trade, right? Outside of AI and HPC and the kind of brain drain effect that it has given to Bitcoin mining as you just described, there are any other, there are any other trends that aren't talked about as much or maybe unforeseen events that you think could disrupt Bitcoin mining as it is today. Yeah, we touch quickly and one, the one that excites me the most is the fact that, you know, people still haven't realized that this is a very different, and when I talk to people, I just talk about utility companies, energy companies, power companies, right? That this is a very different kind of loads that they are used to. And even if they build massive operations that will serve to AI, HPC, all of that, there's always going to be place for Bitcoin mining, right? There's going to be a place because you are going to have loads sitting there that you can take. I give you one example. We're having a conversation with these guys that had, you know, a load bank in one of their sites, right? I don't know what a load bank is, but it's basically a giant stoster that it's there because they need to consume energy at certain levels. And from time to time, they'll just turn it on to like literally burn energy, right? This shouldn't exist. Like it's like, okay, take that off, sell it, right? And we'll put old containers, old miners there when you need to use the energy, right? We put that's 19J pros there because, you know, this is free energy, right? Doesn't matter. And it things like this, and how to optimize the energy consumer. I think we are in the early, early early, early names of that market. We are going to see, you know, Bitcoin mining getting closer and closer to utility companies, to power companies. And for Bitcoin, that's very bullish as well because we've also seen in conversations like, you know, we have partners that are in the energy market. And when we started, they, we would tell like, oh, we're going to be doing Bitcoin mining. It's like, I don't want anything to do with Bitcoin mining, right? And I don't want to do anything with Bitcoin. And then they learn, and then they learn about Bitcoin as an asset, and then you're paying them in fiat every month, and then you tell them, yeah, by the way, if you kept your Bitcoin, this is how much you would have, right? And they start learning about Bitcoin. And they, you know, these guys are specific. They, they now get paid daily in Bitcoin, right? And they like it. So people talk about this, but I think it's super early. And there's still a lot to happen. And when that happens, I think it's going to be massive for, for Bitcoin mining as an industry and for Bitcoin as an asset as well. For our last question, any plans for electron to go public? I'll go back to what I mentioned before. Like we love optionality. So it, you know, everything we do with the company is to build optionality. And that means diversifying and those sources of cap. do we want to go public in the next six months or a year, probably not, but is that something that long-term will be in the plan, maybe, but nothing in the short-term plan for that, you know, I think it's very, very early. It's like sad at the top of the show, we have a very good partnership with Stather, you know, they have enough capital can tear that. We don't need to do any of that in the short-term, but the company, you know, it's important, you know, the process of thinking about going public, I think it's broader and just capital also. It's about governance, about, you know, the processes, procedures that you have in place. For many years, you know, I saw, you know, I worked in big banks and we companies that a lot of this, of course, it's bureaucratic, but a lot of it, it's needed, particularly when you're operating at scale, when you have more people coming in, when you have a lot of money, you know, moving around. So yeah, we are going to prepare a company to be more confidence focused. If that means that, you know, we are going to be ready for an IPO at some point, probably, I don't know when. Got it. Well, we will get you out of here. I know that you're having some camera troubles there. It's a blistering day in Brazil, but Rafa, thank you so much for joining. Really appreciate you taking the time and we'll have to check in sometime in the next six months or so to have you back on. Thanks, Holly. Great to meet you here, man. Thanks for inviting me. Hey, this is Charlie and Colin from BlockSpace Media and you're listening to the BlockSpace podcast, a show about emerging tech in Bitcoin, AI, energy and markets. We publish two interviews weekly with CEOs, investors, analysts and anyone else of consequence within these spaces. Plus, we have a weekly news roundup for all the important stories you might have missed from that week. 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