Mindful Rewind: Julien Baker on Living with Depression and OCD

[MUSIC] Hey, it's Dr. Mike. We hope you enjoyed last week's episode with Jeremiah Freight's of the Luminers. Please be sure to leave a review to let us know how we are doing on your favorite podcast platform. We're taking a week off, but to keep the conversation going and continue to celebrate Pride Month, we thought we'd share an episode with Julian Baker, who discusses her experience, struggling with depression and obsessive compulsive disorder. We'll see you next week with a brand new episode. [MUSIC] Welcome to Going There, the Crossroads, where music and mental health meet. Presented by the Consequence Podcast Network and SoundMind Live, this series is made possible by the fine folks at Janssen Pharmaceutical Companies of Johnson & Johnson. Today, we are talking with singer-songwriter Julian Baker. Her music has been described as brutally honest, chilling, and achingly defiant. And she has a new album out called Little Oblivions that you can pre-order and will be available the week of February 26th. In our conversation, Julian talks about a very common experience where people struggle with comorbid depression and obsessive compulsive disorder. She explains her experience of depression and particularly how it feels like a giant hole that feels like it simply cannot be filled. And she also talks about her experience of having obsessive compulsive disorder, which is generally defined by having obsessive, repetitive thoughts, and persistent compulsive behaviors. For Julian, her OCD manifests in perfectionism in which she feels driven to achieve unusually high standards for herself. And she talks about the various methods that she uses to cope with her depression and her OCD. We appreciate Julian sharing her story on the Going There podcast, where our goal is to have in-depth and tough conversations to address important issues so we can learn from each other, challenge the stigma of mental illness, come out of the darkness, and get the care we need. So let's go there and listen to what Julian has to say. Julian, welcome to Going There. Thank you for having me. So let's just talk about the first time that you felt like, "Hey, there's something that's going on here that doesn't feel right to me." It's funny because I feel like as a child, it's almost completely attached to music and the music I was listening to. And maybe that's because not necessarily that the first time I felt sadness, like deep, unexplainable sadness that wasn't to do with my dog dying, or somebody making fun of me at school, or something. Something that I knew was an internal event. Those things come to me in the form of music memories. Which songs do you remember kind of making you feel like, "Oh, this is helping me explore where I'm at?" Oh my gosh. I loved like, massacistically sad songs. I remember I would just fiend for them. Of course, of everything I was listening to at that time, let's see, I was 12 or 13, so I was listening to Panic of the Disco's first record. Welcome to Black Parade by my Kimmel Caromance, getting really in my feelings to those tunes. And then it's just so funny the way that such genuine, huge emotions would come to me by way of something really commercial and sort of comedic. Like, I remember hearing that Gary Jewel's "Piano Cover of Mad World." It was just on like a Gears of War video game commercial. And I heard it on my friend's TV, and I was like, "I have to figure out what song that was." And that's how I found out about so much music, 'cause it was like, you know, I was an only child. I had people in my neighborhood that we all listened to the same things, the bands that you could find on the Hot Topic T-shirt wall. And that was basically how I got informed of music that wasn't my parents' music. It's like a bizarre feeling to look at them now. And more often than not when I'm talking about the Black Parade, I'm making fun of the clothes that I wore or the attitude that I had and sort of minimizing the legitimate, honest, overwhelming feelings that I was sort of channeling through these intentionally theatrically sad songs. For people who have experienced depression or people who have family members who have experienced depression, they know that difference. You know, they know when there's something that is very connected to what's happening around you. And then there's something that, even if it starts with something in the world, it goes to a very different place. And I'm kind of curious for you, like, what did you notice in terms of just what you were experiencing that was different from what others might consider a kind of more "routine sadness?" I remember, like, having a conversation with my dad when I was really young. And my dad has always been more open than really any other person's parents or, like, any other person that I knew about as an adult, about mental illness and mental health. And I remember just, like, asking him what it feels like I didn't understand what depression was. I was, like, maybe 10. And he was, like, I was just sitting across from him on the couch and he was, like, it's, like, trying to fill in a giant hole and you're just, like, standing there with your shovel with dirt and you keep filling in the hole. And the hole is still there. And the more you put into the hole, you feel like it should be getting smaller and it's just getting bigger. And I didn't understand it. For me, at, you know, 10 or 11, it was so tactile and literal. And something I couldn't put into, like, an emotional context. And then when I felt that, I think that unexplainable myth is what stuck out to me, most, I was like, why? There's really no reason in my life for me to feel like this. And yet, my thoughts are becoming more and more, like, toxic to me, you know? And I think, you know, it's like there's a certain amount of clarity and diagnosis. And so what I struggle with is different than, like, what my other people, my family with depression struggle with because I have OCD. And so, like, my thoughts are obsessive and repetitive. And it just became more and more difficult for me to get outside of my head. Yeah, you know, one of the things that you were talking about is, you know, what your dad was saying with that hole. And I think that something that's just very tough for people to kind of understand is that when you're depressed or you're anxious and people are trying to help, and don't get me wrong, like, sometimes it does. You know, that's part of the dance of getting to know yourself and getting to know other people. But a lot of times what happens is that every time something occurs that in theory should help, it's like, this is just more evidence that it's worse than I thought. Like, it's, it's like, this is so, like, I'm getting farther from you by you doing these things. And it's like, oh my god, that, like, to me, it almost is like a quick sand. Like, there's just nothing to grab on to. Exactly. And I think it's got so much to do, like, you know, when you talk about understanding trauma in your body and, like, generational trauma and how that changes the neurochemistry of, like, challenges your grandparents had, what challenges then that imposed on your parents and what your parents are trying to give to you. Like, when I see my dad explaining that, I can connect it so easily. And, you know, what you're talking about is so true. That the more that people try to help, the more it just seems like it is an acknowledgement of the thing that is making you different and making you isolated and otherd. And as much as people are trying to maybe validate that out loud or accommodate that to the person who's experiencing it, it is like this re-confirmation of your otherness and of your failure to, like, assimilate normally into society or be how, I don't want to say how normal people are, how you project people around you must feel. And I mean, I think about that so much because that's true in my own life. And still is really difficult. Like, I shut down so much when I get anxious because anybody trying to show me, like, patients are deference, I feel indebted to them because I'm like, you shouldn't have to, things shouldn't have to be different for me. And I honestly think, you know, that's something that comes from, at least I feel like in my experience and in my family, there's a deep connection there to bootstrap mentality and being able to do the work on yourself independently without making yourself a burden to others. And, you know, there's so much else there to with the way that women are taught to be accommodating and not to, like, be demanding or socialize to have less needs and be more caretakers than have themselves taken care of or whatever. But yeah, I find myself a sp. especially within these last couple of years, like I would just become furious and retreat from people because I was so frustrated with myself at not being able to put in the work and fix my brain once and for all. - It's so interesting because we have these things in society where we've given permission for tolerating distress as a badge of honor. - Like I do long distance running. I hate saying that because in my experience, like no one wants to hear you talk about how much you love running, but I love running. (laughs) - Wait, why do people say that? - Oh, I don't know. It's just like the jock who's like, yeah, you just gotta get out there, hit those trails, bro. I love running. I did 13 miles today. Like I never like talking about it that much and so I feel weird being like I am capable of running long distances, but I do like half marathon and stuff. And it's interesting because I started running, like I would have a panic attack and I would just run. I would just leave the venue or I would, God, I remember there was this one time, I had just played a show in New York and I feel like it was a Mercury lounge. And I was just sprinting up and down the stairs 'cause it was cold and it was in New York and I didn't wanna walk through the bar. And so I'm just doing these like suicide squats on the stairs physically exercising and trying to like do anything to push out that feeling because I was unable to sit with it. You know, I had absolutely no tolerance for anxiety and I think it made me be a very hyperactive, high strung person. And like what you're saying with technically all, like marathon runners should be having a panic attack because they're putting their body through this extreme stress and everybody's screaming at them and there's so many stimuli going on and there's so much at stake. And it makes me think, you know, a lot of times, especially I feel like when you're in a race, there is like an adrenaline where like excitement responds that's similar to your fight or flight response where you're like, there is only one option here and so I'm gonna let my emergency brain, like my trauma brain take over and get me through this. Part of it is just being at the 25th mile of your panic attack and pushing through, but also it's like why are we all walking around pushing through our panic attacks instead of evaluating the societal factors and factors about our work and about our daily lives that are giving us these panic attacks? - That's the thing because one of the biggest problems I have with a lot of the people with whom I work is that they're doing so many good things. You know, they're doing so many good things. I mean, think about you. I mean, you're at the beginning essentially of this fantastic career. I mean, like if you weren't doing that, things would be less stressful for you. And you know, if you start adding things on, not you, but anybody starts adding things on, it gets back to that central premise. It's like, well, you're supposed to feel good that you're a musician. Doesn't that make you feel good? Doesn't that make you not be OCD anymore, right? You know, it's like-- - Conversation with people from my hometown, like good job. And I'm just like, ah, I mean, not so much anymore, but like-- - I think one of the things that is so much better about the way things used to be, right? 'Cause it used to be that everything was this like rigid, heteronormative, racist, sexist, like every, all the, all the isms were all lined up, you know? And so that there was this very narrow group of people that got to have any kind of sense of belonging or non-otherness. The thing that's so amazing now is that everything is opening up. But the thing that, you know, we have to get to the other side of is that there's still this part of everyone that still evaluates success based on those old norms. I mean, people know that this isn't true, but there's something in the back of head that's like, well, you're supposed to settle down and have a family and you're supposed to have one job for the rest of your life. And it's supposed to always move up. And, you know, when you're supposed to stay connected with people in the same way. And the thing that nobody talks about is how difficult it is to do all of these things. I feel like that's the, what you're talking about with the societal issue is that why don't people talk about how difficult it is to hold down a regular job to have relationships? Yeah, you're describing like so many things about how we evaluate ourselves as successful. I don't know, in the therapy that I have undergone, it's very like values based. And that was hard for me to figure out because basically I didn't know what my values were or how they were different from things that I had let be established as like matters of course. My anxiety does manifest itself in productivity a lot. And I think for a lot of people that's true because we have sort of an atmosphere of grind culture that ties in, it's almost this malformed, like, cousin of thought to bootstrap mentality of, if you just work hard, good things will come to you. If you just are dedicated enough, if you're just a good enough musician, if you're just, if you just stay up all night practicing your instrument like the movie Whiplash, then you will be rewarded by the music gods for your dedication. And I don't want to speak, you know, I'm an amateur and this is your job, so pardon correct me, but I feel-- No, no, no, I reject that dichotomy, absolutely no. And this is what you and I were talking about right at the beginning, it's like, we are completely this expert concept and anyone who's in our field should know by definition that we don't know very much. Like that should be the thing that you learn and that you should be learning from the people who you're working with. It's like we should be spending more time listening to them because it's like, I don't feel like we have this thing on Wach, because if we did, there wouldn't be a mental health crisis. Oh my gosh, people were doing absolutely inhumane things as standard practice like 20 years ago that were experts. So I'm all for like leveling academia and being aware of like-- Yeah, we-- like-- Accreditation and epistemic privilege, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we came up with gay conversion therapy. Let's have a little humility, you know? Oh my god. So hold on, let me just get my thoughts in order because there's so many things that I have to say about that. The first thing I was going to say is that when you said we need to be learning from the people that we're working with, yes, that is amazing to me because it is-- it's a really simple explanation of how I think identity politics and like trying to make a protocol built off of identity politics is still just like a different way of categorization. And so even when you think about like trying to explore gender theory and, you know, more people becoming awake to the fact that gender isn't binary, but then it's still like so the thing we learn from this from dismantling that binary is that you interact with people on a completely individual basis that has maybe some, but not necessarily any bearing on the way another person understands their gender and their sexuality and their identity. And that's like the liberty that you afford to the human beings in your life. But it's the same way, I think, with mental illness or with mental health. I was going to say like you talk about gay conversion therapy and my particular flavor of OCD is obsessed with-- I don't know how to say it, like correctness with rightness. You know, ultimately if you want to get down to the brass tax of it, it's like any other obsession, it's seeking security in finding some mechanism to alleviate uncertainty. Because uncertainty is uncomfortable for all humans. You know, we don't want to not know where our next meal is going to come from and we don't want to not know what everybody else is wearing to the party and we don't want to not know if Earth is going to die from pollution. You know, it's whatever. But so much of that is wrapped up in, I think, my faith. And even though it's like-- as many-- I've done so much reflecting this year, like everybody has. But really reevaluating coming back again to these societal aspects and things that we take to be the way it is all capital letters, like the way that the human experience is evaluated. It's bizarre to be in a position where for so long, I made a point to actively reconcile queerness in faith without fully acknowledging the negative impacts that organized religion had maybe had on my life. Gosh. I mean, love and action was in Memphis, you know, the infamous conversion therapy center. And it's like, those are things that were in my consciousness and in my awareness that I didn't really process as personal to me, you know, because I wasn't connecting with them on an identity basis, I guess. And I've talked about this before. before it's like, you know, I just came out and then I had all these friends that were men and they were just like, well, you're a boy now. You know what I mean? Like, well, I mean, not really, but like, there's not really a ton, there wasn't really a ton of three or two. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like now we've heard this. And also, you know, I got wrapped up a lot in ideas of, ooh, like righteousness and social activism. And, you know, I think that you're taught in so many ways when you grow up in church that you're supposed to be in control of your mind and of your every action and of your every will. And that's not always possible. If you have entries of thoughts there, they're uncontrollable thoughts that occur in your mind. And there's this big rift between understanding the mind and its actual neurological, psychological capabilities and then the expectations we have set up by religious institutions or academic institutions or, you know, our jobs or what have you. You know, when people say like, well, what's wrong with having gay conversion therapy as an option? And it's like, well, it's not really that. It's like, why aren't we asking the question of like, why is there a need for that to begin with? You know, like why on a societal level is it's a living breathing, at least from my perspective of what I've seen, harmful monument to the exact opposite of what we should be doing. I live in Maplewood and New Jersey and it's, you know, we have a big rainbow in the center of our town and I'm very fortunate because I see how my kids, they have gay friends, they have by-friends, they have trans friends already and I see the ease with which they talk about, you know, they just talk about sort of like, well, 11 and 14. That's amazing. Yeah, it is and it's like, and they just talk about the way someone's like, oh, so and so's Italian, like so and so is trans, you know, and they have the language words, you know, born, male, but identifies as female, as living as such and that makes me so happy. Like when I see my younger cousins navigating that, because, you know, I mean, I'm, I don't know, there's several ways in which my anxiety expresses itself and the, and the rightness comes across, but choosing the correct words and the correct terminology for some reason just like became very important to me and there's so much about how language shapes are perception of others, you know, so it's like having that built into how those children interact with each other, I think is already going to have like a positive impact on how they understand themselves and like their self-concept. It's such a simple and straightforward concept, that otherness idea, right? It's like, well, there's the quote unquote norm and then there's other. And once you have to be defined as other, everything then has to go through that filter. You know, it's sort of like, you're hanging out with a bunch of people and someone was like, well, how can you never told me you were gay? It's like, well, the fact that I need to declare that as much as that may seem like an innocuous thing to you, that's a, that's a big deal to me because what it's saying is that I now have to think of myself in your context, in your framework. That's a, that's a whole different ballgame of orienting to one's life. And if you do that across multiple things, if you talk about that in terms of race, in terms of gender, in terms of sexuality, and all these religion, and all the anxieties that get built up, instead of just being able to go and hang out with your friends, it's like, oh, sure, well, my other friends wanted me to say it to it. Do I have to say it? Do I have to? And that may not seem like a big deal to people, but it is if it's happening all the time across a lifetime. And that's how these like anxieties build up and those stresses build up. Yeah. Two, three, pop. Borre Hay, Army, and fellow music fans. I'm Kayla. And I'm Bethany, and we're the hosts of Standing BTS from the Consequence Podcast Network. We're a bi-weekly show that covers the impact and legacy of K-Pop Group BTS. We mix the perfect blend of research and fan girl as we take a deep dive into lyrics during album reviews, theorize over music videos, and keep up with their current events. No BTS topic is off limits. We welcome everyone into the conversation whether you're a casual fan, committed army, or someone who's just curious about one of the biggest music groups in the world. Come chat with us every other Thursday with a new episode wherever podcasts are found. Hello, and welcome to Longtime No See the Podcast. Each week we'll be pairing two blind folded comedians who've agreed to sit down with a mystery guest. I'll be putting them on the spot with a series of questions about their careers, lives, and opinions. It's out further ado. Please remove your blindfolds and introduce yourself. Hey, I'm Michael. Hi, Andrea. I have to be honest with you, I'm so relieved to see it, you. Do you have any irrational fears? What's the worst fad you were into? Is there any job that you would be terrible at? Underwater welder? Don't say that about yourself. Do you guys have any useless talents? I kicked one of those delivery robots. What? You kicked one? I kicked those all the time. They have names on them. Good. I can make smoke come out of my mouth with nothing. Do it. You want to see it? I want to f***ing. Are you with Michael? Out now, Longtime No See the Podcast, season two. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I think there's there is a lot of social performing so much and it's it really doesn't matter. If you like for me, I find that there was a lot of social preference that whether I wanted to admit it or not was, you know, centered around doing the correct thing or the most just thing or the rightest thing. And again, with like with obsessiveness or perfectionism, that's not to say when you're a perfectionist, you do everything perfectly. It's that when you're a perfectionist, you are hyper-sensitive to when you fail, which you know, if you have an obsession that ultimately doesn't feed or halt your compulsion, it just makes it worse than you're like, okay, well then the failure is getting greater. I think about sometimes the tears of realness that we get in discussing mental health, like memes with a butterfly that say like, it's okay to be different. Like there's that level all the way down to super bleak stuff. What I worry about with even right now I'm feeling conflicted because I don't I don't want to like divulge too much of my own personal experience and thus like romanticize it or use it as some sort of posturing for like how I want myself to be understood through the world or some kind of like guilt attraction or trauma porn whatever. But when we don't speak as literally and candidly about these things as we should, we risk euphemizing, like euphemizing, that's not a word. Making a euphemism and it should be a word. It should be a word. Yeah, like I mean, you think about it with anything like I declare euphemizing a word on this podcast, euphemizing. Yes. Yeah, we you know, we create these handy euphemisms to distance ourselves from realities of things that are really painful that and then we keep them taboo and while keeping them taboo like we continue to perpetuate their otherness. So you could say that, you know, it's I grew up in a Southern family and I feel like there's a lot of navigating around people's dark realities with euphemisms and like not speaking about things or having unspoken understandings about the wellness or the the private personal life of your family members and that's not helpful because it continues to like reinforce the idea that there is like a secret self that is inappropriate for the world to see. And I worry about that same thing even with, you know, doing, you know, having public conversations about it because it's almost like you're allowed to have a couple of drinks, but you can't be like blacked out drunk. You know how to do that? You know, you're allowed to, hey, it's like, you know, we all experience sadness. You're allowed to do that, but you're not allowed to be like horribly can't get out of bed depressed, you know? No, and I think that ties in so much with and honestly, you know, when I made fun of myself you're saying I've been reflecting a lot because everyone's been reflecting in quarantine, but this record is about to come out and a lot has happened while we've been making it and it's interesting to think about the narrative of the last couple records and how that's almost what I was trying to do even though I had this like understanding that recovery is a is a nonlinear journey and like there's probably, you know, never going to be this moment where I feel like I'm healthy now. I'm stable now. It's essentially it's a disappearing horizon, but I tried so much to personify my anxiety as something I did not want to, as something that I wanted to overcome and have this like triumphant narrative about in something that I didn't want to investigate or allow to be part of me just of my personality, you know? Yeah, you think about something never going away and with all the ways that we talk about mental illness, it's like really something more akin to chronic pain than it is because I hear people say all the time we should have more mental health like faculty. to use available to people because people don't realize it's an illness and if you broke your arm you wouldn't be like, "Hey, just suck it up and get better." But when you break your arm you just put your arm in a cast and then if your doctor is doing right by you, hopefully the bone just grows back kind of the same way or you have to have massive reconstructive surgery if it's really bad. But what I'm saying is like then your arm goes back to being the same way and it's more like somebody just telling you that your knee is going to pop out of place unexpectedly forever for the rest of your life and you're going to have to learn. You can walk and you can go and do all the stuff that you want to do but just be aware and if it pops out of like if you dislocate your joint or if you have something else happened you like this is how you deal with it and it's not like there's not a cure but I think I was waiting for something like that and especially, "Geez, I read toms and toms of philosophy and psychology and fiction and nonfiction and try meditative practices and all these things to try to like enlighten myself out of anxiety." And yeah all that stuff is inevitably like self-defeating because then when you find yourself dealing with a new whack-a-mole that you haven't gotten to yet then it's like disappointing for all the work that you've done. Bias and discrimination is simple in its concept but it's incredibly complicated in how it manifests. You know like thinking one group of people is better than another is a very simple thing but it's incredibly complicated in terms of how it infiltrates someone's life and treatment is sort of sometimes can be very simple but it's incredibly in concept. It's like you have to tolerate the emotion until you get some kind of like a reset you know with anxiety but it's incredibly complicated because that reset doesn't always happen and it doesn't happen in a linear way and then it's like you know what's simple? Drugs are simple. Alcohol is simple. Bad food is simple and then when people sort of say well why you know that's not going to solve the problem it's like it's like yeah but you don't know what the problem is. Like you think the problem is oh I had a breakup and you know now I'm sad. It's like that's not the point. The point is like I was going to be sad at some point this just happens to be the thing that triggered it and sometimes when you everything is so complicated it's just like you know I just need like a minute where things are simple where I'm high where I'm drunk where I'm like you know jacked up on nicotine and caffeine or like a lot of kids you know these days I'm just like jacked up on Adderall and then I'm smoking pot you know to go to sleep and it's so easy to get into that cycle when you have those other complexities because it is so appealing to have something that feels simple. Oh my gosh yeah and I completely agree with you and I think that's what was so difficult for me and you know like this is still painful to talk about to my ego but since the podcast is called going there. Yeah you know I was sober for many years and that kind of became part of my identity and then I feel like I have always been a hardcore fan and I like collapsed sobriety and straight edge culture and you know it's like I'm not out here in fsu I just listen to a lot of straight edge music like I'm not claiming to be like part of the culture but I could go off on a tangent about how there is an element of purity culture to it that sort of collaborated well or conflated well with the purity culture of Christianity that you know of being excellent and being morally right and being superior and denying the flesh or whatever. There was a point it was in the last few days of 2018 in December like December 27th 28th and something just went off in my brain that was like I have been feeling the hyper vigilant cold sweat panic state for three straight days and I don't know why I'm straight edge anymore. Then I was just like you know what maybe it's time to change my relationship to alcohol and of course I did that maybe subconsciously because I was like well nothing nothing is working like none of my tactics are working prayer is not working surprise that was mean I'm sorry sometimes prayer and meditation I pray differently now you know I don't I guess like now not just praying for God to magically make my anxiety to go away. It's kind of like what we've been saying in the sense that when something's presented to you in a well if you just do this it'll be okay way for different people prayer can feel like different things and I do think for some people if you feel like it was sold to you as you're anxious because you're not doing this and if you just do this you'll be fine I think it's fair to develop a certain you know hey that that didn't work for me and it made me feel bad in the in the in the process. Sure no and I mean I can sit here and talk about bad theology and I mean that what it's still a thing I enjoy talking about but now I just think I try to root it more in the body and the interpersonal and you know not over philosophize things that I mean I'm saying like you know maybe that was bad theology that it was sold to me that I could pray my anxiety away or read my anxiety away or educate my anxiety away. But what I'm saying is like you know in that moment these things aren't working and so I was just like yeah I would like to not feel this way for even one moment then I had like a I did a crisis about not being straight edge anymore and like among all those things you know I thought what you're saying is like people think oh the problem is you're going through a break up you're sad so you're just gonna drown it in the boost but the thing is really like people are searching for relief I think a lot of times and then start to become dependent on the one kind of relief that they can easily access and then like I'm sure I read a ton of books about this too because I'm like on an eternal quest to understand everything which I never will but then you know it's like the more you use the less you are able to feel at like emotional or mental stasis without a substance and so then your tolerance for life without the substance actually goes further down gradually as your tolerance yet or your imperviousness to the substance goes up and that was a really difficult thing to come back from for me just getting into that cycle having my sobriety wrapped up in an ideology of superiority and like triumph over like using the will to subvert the impulse like that I was like oh I actually can't do this because trauma is powerful and the chemicals in my brain are powerful and addiction is powerful and it was humbling but it was also like exactly what you're describing you know so people fall into those cycles for a reason one of the things that I'll say to the people I'm working with is that it's good to have a moral like you're like your therapist talking about to have values like it's it's good if the values are kind of subservient to a more organic you like if you're using them as a way of trying to figure your life out that's works but if if it's now become another sexism another racism another way for you to feel like your other and you're not meeting whatever arbitrary standard it's like well what do you what do you have then now you now that's because like to me that's the that's one of the ways that discrimination manifests is when the person is now the internalizes you know this sense that that they're they're not good enough and they've got to be in this perpetual fight to get better and it's like man that's it's like it's not a conversation it's it's not even an argument it's just it's just like it's a beat down it's like an emotional beat down and you know that's coming from like yourself all the time and I think that's what's that's what's so difficult is because oh man like I wanted for so long I wanted to get better and it wasn't happening and I was so angry because I just wanted to not be like burdensome to my friends and it was because like the whole time I was trying to get better still was rooted in this like if I just go to this behavioral health clinic if I just do this thing if I just like trust my psych my psychiatrist about what medication I should be on then maybe I can like everything go back to normal and I can uh you know and I don't think that's a realistic standard you know when you're just worried about like making the people in your life stop worrying about you because that's uncomfortable I you know and I think unfortunately that's still how a lot of people look at mental health is like I'm just trying to get where other people don't think that I'm crazy right now like that's how I felt I was like man I've been anxious for my whole life it's manifesting in a really negative way right now if I could just have it go back to manifesting in a really tolerable way I could probably be the same level of miserable but my friends wouldn't not know if I'm gonna live or die and then you're just like yeah that seems optimal but you know it's a really low bar well we are unfortunately at a time and it's a bummer because I feel like we can have like eight more discussions off of what we talked about but - Oh, yes. - But honestly, one of the things as you were talking, what was interesting is that I was trying to figure out, 'cause I don't really judge that much when I listen to music, what draws me in, I'm just kind of like what I like and I don't like, it's kind of like, Beavis and Butt had had it kind of right on that front. Just things, some things are cool and some things suck. So it's like, you know? - You're a rocker, you suck. - Yeah, but I think in retrospect, one of the things that I liked about the music and I think I get that vibe from talking with you is that it does feel like for some reason, the music kind of just opens up the conversation. I don't get the feeling, you could tell me if I'm wrong about this, that at least the things that I've heard that it's as much like, here's the conclusion you're supposed to be coming to. It's more like, here's the emotion and what do you think? I don't know, that's the vibe that I get off of it. It's talking with you. - That's the biggest compliment. I love that. I think, yeah, it's really counter to my personality to wanna come with one foregone conclusion about anything. You know, as ironic as that is because I'm always just trying to figure out one nice little box of how I feel about everything. But that's a big compliment, thank you. I hope that that's what the music does. I hope it's a catalyst for discourse and not just my sermon on what I think in a song. - Well, that's it, I appreciate you coming on and best of luck to you with everything. - Of course, yeah, thank you so much. - So there it is, Julian Baker talking about her struggle with depression and obsessive compulsive disorder. There are so many important takeaways from Julian's story, particularly a recognition of how difficult and complicated it is to struggle with more than one mental health issue. And Julian does such a fantastic job of talking about the trial and error that many people go through to figure out how to cope. Well, substance use work, well therapy, well exercise. And for each of us, there may be a different combination of coping methods that helps us manage our unique mental health issues. I just wanna highlight one thing in particular that we brought up towards the end of the conversation, which was the role of music in Julian's journey to experience, process, and express her intense emotions. I was really struck by the fact that Julian's listening to bands like Michael Romance and Panic at the Disco, allowed her to, as she said, get really into her feelings. For many of us, music is our first entrance into understanding how we feel about ourselves, our lives, and the world around us, and realizing that there may be others out there who feel the same way. And this is so important towards reducing the stigma that people have towards mental illness. Sometimes it can mean so much to know that there's just one person out there who understands and can help us articulate our feelings. And you can feel the empathy in Julian's music, where she is opening conversations, exploring emotions, and not feeling like she has to provide all the answers. The wisdom she has from her own mental health journey comes through and it translates into a respect for others, recognizing that coping with mental illness is often a journey and not a destination. I want to thank Consequence Podcast Network and Sound Mind Live for including me in this wonderful project, which is sponsored by Janssen Pharmaceutical Companies of Johnson & Johnson. And thanks to Pete Wilson and the Rooks for letting us use their song, I Know. If you are struggling with anxiety, depression, or addiction and are looking for help, please call the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration National Helpline at 1-800-622-4357. And if you're thinking about harming yourself and want to seek help, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255. You may also go to the Sound Mind Live and Consequence of Sound websites for more information. So be healthy, be safe, and be kind to yourself and others. See you next time at The Crossroads. ♪ I want to love you ♪ Hey, it's Kyle Meredith, host of The Kyle Meredith with Podcast, presented by WFPK at WFPK.org and the Consequence Podcast Network. It's a series that puts the spotlight on iconic musicians and actors, inviting them to drop by and talk about their latest projects, whether it's albums, TV shows, films, or beyond. I'm going to say something I don't want to say. Here it goes. Without spinal tap, there is no tenacious team. Whoa! Man! We get great stories and the biggest scoops from people like Garbage's Shirley Manson, the 1975's Mattie Healy, Jack Black and Kyle Gas of Tenacious D, Maya Hock, Keith or Sutherland, and everyone in between. New episodes arrive every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, so it's a great way to keep up with your favorite artists and discover some new ones. You can find Kyle Meredith with on the Consequence Podcast Network or wherever you get your podcasts. Two, set, pop! ♪ Pop and roll ♪ For Hey, Army, and Fellow Music Fans, I'm Kayla. And I'm Bethany and we're the host of Standing BTS from the Consequence Podcast Network. We're a biweekly show that covers the impact and legacy of K-Pop Group BTS. We welcome everyone into the conversation, whether you're a casual fan, committed army, or someone who's just curious about one of the biggest music groups in the world. ♪ Pop and roll ♪ Come chat with us every other Thursday with a new episode wherever podcasts are found. [MUSIC]