Mindcoach Emma Murray

Hi Ho, welcome to Dubbo's podcast, where you get to be a fly on the wall. Hmm, as a bunch of smart people bounce ideas off each other. Glad you're here. Now, Buckelyn. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. It is good to be back. We recorded maybe a dozen of these episodes in the early days with the intent that it was fundamentally a resource for people who had heard me to conference wanted some more knowledge, wanted their team to hear the ideas, to set up a common language in their organization, sometimes to introduce a loved one to a couple of key ideas. This was always meant to be a follow up resource. What's happened over time is I've collected a lot of knowledge and now I'm hoping to put a lot more of it on here for you than 100 which we referred to in early episodes. It really is a pretty established community of freak talents and more and more I'm going to bring you not just the interview with the individual but what the project was that we worked on, which is what you're going to hear today. There will also, as you hear in the late part of this episode, there's a new book coming out called No Wasted Effort, which I'll talk a little bit about later, but is one of a series and in 2026 I'm actually going to host a series of seminars. They're going to be typically on Thursdays every two months in Melbourne and they're really going to be a business owner's guide to performance. First one's going to look at a whole bunch of rules I have when I'm looking at a business and the first rule is free up the leaders time and there's a whole series of rules after that that you need to know to put in place because they're one-on-one. There's going to be a semi-half a half day seminar on culture and I rule there fundamentally is culture is designed by what you reward, what you punish and what you overlook. It's very, very simple and then we'll look at the ongoing execution of that. There's going to be one on team and that one's called Presumed Best Intention and all the other strategies my behaviours behind an elite team. There'll be a couple on business strategy and there'll be a couple on individual performance particularly around the performance later on. You have heard me on stage, you've probably heard me refer to that. It's a fairly established model of mine. I've found it through all my clients. So I'm very excited to introduce a series of seminars. You can join them online or you can come live. They'll be small group. My community has never been about me being famous and having thousands of people in the room. It's been about having a tight community of people who you wouldn't mind having to be here with and they've all got some kind of cool project that they're working on. If you are interested in that, drop me an email, look on the website or the information will be there. The book will be released November onwards of 2025. It's an exciting year, 2026 and I hope we cross paths in some way and come and join the community and meet some of the 100. But today you're in for a river. So straight over to the crew in studio. The home of what I call the 100, the freak talents that have been collecting for 30 years, it's closer in number to 1000 now and here will outline the projects we've worked on, how we went about it, what the wisdom's were, what the failings were. And in the process, I hope you find the goal that you're looking for to deliver on whatever it is you're working on next. Ladies and gentlemen, let's get right into it. I don't even know, I haven't even really. About this. I should have thought about it on the drive home, but I was trying to arrange people to clean up my surrogate. That's a good, I hope you did the show. I always gentlemen on here with your local look, Surrey Jellett. Hey, Lago, I'm excited. This is a good show today. I'm with Performance Mindset Coach for one of a better language and my Murray. Is that how you got your call yourself? I hate it when people ask me. I'm like, I don't know how to answer that. Emerald are in the same industry. So we met at a conference last year and typically when I know the way our industry works in speaking for that's one hour out of our life, is somebody calls the agent and they say, hey, I need somebody in this space, often mind set. And typically they'll usually put forward a bit of a trio. Like it'll often be myself, they'll pitch you and then they'll pitch Ben Crow. And then the customer looks through what they want based on availability and I'm less famous. So they'll usually put me last and then they go, well, maybe we'll get that double guy eventually. But so we were finally on a conference together and I heard you on an era a few times but listeners world, we we hit it off and it was great because it's an uncommon lifestyle we have, I think. And I don't know that we have unique challenges with one thing we're talking about is everybody wants to have a coffee with us. I say, can I buy you a coffee? And I'm like, actually, I don't need a coffee. What a need is an hour. And if you could ask me the question right now, the answer, then I'm going to go. But it was it was great. So after we did that, we just texted a little bit and I just said, hey, can we have a podcast, a good reason to have a chat. And today, you're having a rough day. So it was a flat. Every one is. It was two hours late. But yeah, no, surge issues and kid issues and. Yeah, right. So everyone's wondering what that is. But let's go let it go. So we already started talking world. So and we were talking fundamentally about our lifestyle, which is, which is a little different, but let's let people know roughly what you do. So your mind's a coach, but I think people probably know you work most through Richmond football club, at least in Australia, but you've got international clients. So do you want to give us a loose idea of like what are you doing? Yeah, no. My work probably came to the fore during Richmond's sort of premiership window, I guess, between 2017 and 2020 when they won three premierships. And you know, because you work in the space when premierships won after Richmond hadn't won a premiership for 37 years, it's never one thing. Like it's not my work. Yeah. It's a combination of incredible leadership from Peo Neal, the president at the time to Damien Hardwick, the coach. You know, Trent Couch and the captain, we had an incredible leadership consultant. But I guess my work in the mental performance space was really new and a lot of clubs were implementing programs in that leadership space, but not in just pure mental skills. So it got a fair bit of publicity from that. And once you're involved in a premiership in AFL in Australia, it's a bit like it opens a lot of doors. So very lucky to have that point in my career. And a couple of things happened during that time. Jack Raywell came up to me and said, hey, I did a hot lap, which is in a super car with Scott McLaughlin. And Scott was driving me in this celebrity hot lap and was telling me how he'd just lost this championship that he should never have lost. And I recommend it that he work with you and I knew nothing about motorsport. So I said, you know, okay, I'll meet with him. And so I started working with Scott and he was enormously successful. He went from losing to winning back-to-back-to-back super car championships and that thirst and most polls in history. So again, that really helped. But the other lucky thing was my daughter's played Neppel at the local Neppel Club and the president of the Neppel Club Nicole Piaestry came up to me and said, hey, my son's in Formula 3, Oscar, you know, he keeps crashing. He can't win. Could you do some work with him? And I'm thinking, God, I don't have time for a 16 year old kid in F3. And I said, look, I'll tell you what, I'll have a call with him and I'll find out what's going on for him and I'll sort of point him in the right direction. And I had this call with him and I said, okay, in the race on the weekend Oscar, I want you to do this. I want you to do that. Get back to me, tell me how you went. And my idea was just to then pass him off and he came back and he had just was so compliant to what I had said. God, that's so good. Is someone just does it? Just do it. Just try it. But he did it in a way that he really understood why he was doing it. And I was like, wow, these kids and all the Piaestry kids are incredibly intelligent, like freakishly intelligent. And I was like, wow, like that, that's something. And something in me was like, no, you should work with this kid. So I started working with him and I think it's like eight years later now he's leading the world championship. And so people know me through that. So yeah, so some lucky conversations happen. And the Richmond thing really happened because I was in this space and working with a few athletes. I was volunteering my time at a VFL club. And I knew someone at Richmond Football Club and I had a coffee with them and said, hey, this is what I do. And it just so happens, a time that I had the coffee with Damage and the general manager. He had just been overseas and had been to a conference where he heard Michael Jovey talk, who's the performance mindset coach at the time for Seattle Seahawks. And he was like, oh, what your talking about sounds very similar to what this guy was talking about. He was really excited and said, wow, yeah, like we really want to do something. But then came back to me and said, we've gone in a different direction. We're going with leading teams, which was the right moment. And I was like, well, whatever. And I didn't think anything of it. But then halfway through that season, I got a call from Dan saying Dylan Grimes, one of the players, he'd come to the club going, look, I just feel like something's missing for me. I feel like I'm the level at which I'm training is not matching the level at which I'm playing. What can I do? And this was before the time where they had bikes at clubs and I think the AFL players association psych services were available, but you didn't really at that time a general manager didn't know where to send the person. So I popped into his mind and he's like, well, why don't you go speak to that girl that we never hired? And dealing with incredible results and he told someone else who told Dusty Martin and then Dusty Martin got incredible. So luck had a lot to do with that. - See, it sounds like luck. I would say my story is similar in that I see other people in our industry doing a lot of work on social media and that's not how I've ever found a customer or a relationship and that I've always found I've done really good work and then someone said, oh, you should meet so and so. And because you think about meeting, because in a comp-house tree, if you've done a crap job, that opportunity of her inviting you was always there, but you've got to prove yourself so they go, oh, that's the person to speak to. So I feel like those opportunities are all around us. Everybody's looking for it somewhere else, but it's right in your neighborhood. Are you doing a good job with the things that you touch? And I, like you did so much volunteer work. Like all the stuff I did at Pool was all volunteer. - The amount of work that I did for nothing, the amount of study, you know, with four little toddlers, the amount of study I did till two in the morning, the amount of, I never went to coffee mornings with the school moms and this and that. And in fact, I remember my daughter was in head of the river and there was a mindfulness course, teacher training course that I really wanted to do and it was hard to get onto and they rang me on like a wedding day and they said, we've had someone pull out, you know, and you can come this weekend and my daughter's in head of the river, a rowing. And I was like, I'm sorry, Jess, like I really, I need to do this. So you miss out on a lot. I don't think people see that. Yeah, the amount that you miss out on and the amount that you do that, yes, there's this pinnacle that people see in the media, but a lot's behind that. - There's so many things that you've got to solve on the journey. Like I remember as a kid really wanting to do this and I ain't less than the doll for six years. I was dedicated. I was just. - I got $10,000 from Richmond for the first year and I was like my whole, like I was working my ass off. - That's the other thing is that people think that because you're on TV you're probably rich. And it just doesn't work like that. The AFL clubs that I've been involved in and I've had done, you know, through the years, small roles going into this little work at North Melbourne. I knew you wrote better through the welcome blight here and so and a few players here and there and they're not, I don't really want to go and work for them necessarily because they are still clubs. There's a lot of money moving around but it's not moving around everywhere. It's moving around in certain pockets. But what I found is it's, someone said this to me once, it's easy to get into a high performance environment once like a club or a basketball team or something. But it's hard to get in there consistently or twice even and that you have to have had enough skill to get that second invitation to the next place. But, you know, I cut my teeth doing so much work alongside junior or younger athletes. - Yeah, like I had four little kids. - I just, that just by my mind every time you say that. I just, I got to and-- - I also had a full time job in the space and I was studying and I would put them to bed two nights a week and I would get in my car and I would drive an hour across, you know, West Cape Bridge and I would sit in the freezing cold football rooms of Port Melbourne football club. - Oh yeah, were you with Gary? - No, Andy Collins. - All right. - On Oak Port Melbourne, Wiemstown. - Oh, okay, 'cause I was involved with Gary, as a little while back at the perfect season. - Wiemstown and it was freezing. I didn't get paid a cent. It was late at night and I didn't even really have, I just sat there and hoped that players wanted to come and talk to me, some did, some didn't. It wasn't even a formal. - Yeah. - Anything. I just did it, work in, work out. - That's interesting what you're saying about them. I got a question for a question, but the model is right because when I was doing stuff at the pool too, Popeye the coach wanted me around. But nobody set a formal session with me. I would just turn up pretty much every Tuesday and I would just be around. And then they'd just get another pool, having a laugh, drive themselves down and they'd just sort of say, "Oh, what about this?" And some days would break onto more of a conversation or something, "Oh, we should go have a breakfast or something." And it was really, can I sit down and have a big chat about something? That came up later, but there was so much of it was just being like part of the furniture that they had someone to bounce off because it's not always I need an hour chat. They just got this random question. They said, "This happened the other day." Like, "Oh, you get, did you try that?" "Oh, no, good idea." And then it moves on. So it's interesting that you say that. But what was you calling to go across to Williams town? Like, why? You're just so drawn for the craft, are you? Like, what's the-- - Well, I was an athlete myself. So I played national level under 21 netball, was at the Australian Institute of Sport, the Vic Institute of Sport, had a lot of injuries. And when I finished netball, I was also in the corporate space in PR sales, marketing that sort of space. And I finished netball because of the injuries really. So earlier than I should have, but moved into coaching. And then became personally interested in mindfulness and psychology. I was studying my undergrad was in psychology, but more communications. And really what happened to me is the corporate space. I, whilst I was successful and really good at it, I hated it. I absolutely hated it. And there was a moment where I was reading an article in the paper about a woman who had set up a mindfulness program at Jolong grammar. And I had been studying mindfulness and I sort of dawned on me. You can turn this into a job. And I sat down that day and I wrote everything I didn't want in a job. I didn't want electronic diaries. I didn't want working progress documents. I didn't want sales targets. I didn't want this. I didn't want that. And then I thought about mindfulness and I thought about being in that space of coaching people. And it was like all the things I didn't want in a job were removed by this. I looked back now and go, I don't even know. It wasn't like I had a burning desire for years. I just suddenly decided that's what I was going to do. And I started it. And I guess once I start something, I really lock into it. But I think everything I studied, every course I did completely drew me in. I just loved it. And yeah, that sort of more came about from hating where I was than necessarily having a burning desire for something else. - Yeah, because often we're unhappy in something in our life, but we don't necessarily know what we want instead. - Yeah. - And I find that personally very frustrating because I know that I get whatever I think about. I just know certain. But sometimes I don't know what it is that I want. I don't want this. - Yeah. - And that is a really challenging time. And I understand a lot of people in life go through that where they just don't know what they want. - I think for me, things changed when I was first starting in the coaching space. It was sort of with anyone like I would friends, family, and then they would refer me. And it never felt amazing. And then when I started working with Dylan at Richmond, I'd worked with a few athletes. Dylan's challenge was he'd had a lot of hamstring injuries. He couldn't strung a lot of games together. He had a lot of fear around his body. My net pull journey was the same. And all of a sudden it was like all of those years of pain and trauma from my own net pull made sense to me. It was like, oh, that's a gift because I have so much empathy. And I talked to athletes a lot about, I talked to anyone a lot around. If you could choose the emotional state that you best could sit in, it's one of certainty and trust. Even though you have no idea how things are going to work out. When you have a level of certainty that things are working out for me, then you step into the performance space just like, I don't know how this is going to play out, but I know it's working out for me. Even injuries. Nothing's ever good or bad. It just sort of it is. And it's always got a way where it's working out for you. I didn't know, but that career that was so painful and there was a lot of shame involved with my injuries. And it was giving me real life experience. I know what these athletes are feeling like. So when I first stepped into it, I immediately had real life connection to what they were going through. So you could treat me so many great ideas. So one of the things that I talk about, and it's in the new book, not that I'm plugging it everybody, but anyway, I'm talking about it's always good in the end. And if it's not good, it's not the end. OK. And so at the end of your netball career, if it doesn't feel good, it's actually not the end. All right. So now when you realize, That was a piece that I'm pairing with my coaching. Now it's the completion of that journey. But people often conclude whether or not something's good or bad far too early. And I've just learned that there is wisdom, there is something in here. And if I can't see it, it just hasn't finished. It's like we're game of cards. Like you look like you're losing, but we haven't finished the game yet. We don't know. And the other thing that you mentioned there is, the fact that you've got this other skill, I find coaching, especially, I like I steer away from life coaching 'cause I don't think anybody can get that right. I really like a tangible thing we're moving towards. It's best when it's paired with another skill you've already got. So if you're very good, you've already been in corporate, then you understand it. So you're pairing it. Some things definitely transfer. Like I've worked with Muslim rock group and the Australian ballet and some individuals primarily. But and so when you're doing that, I don't know anything about those things. So there is an extrapolation, but there are some things that I know a lot about 'cause I've been right in there. And that's something I see friends try to move into this space. And I'm all for it. But sometimes they just so barely don't want what they used to do that they throw it away too much. When it's actually, if you just pair your coaching to that, there's a best opportunity. - Everything I studied, not even in this space, but everything I studied, I learned the tools I built up in that corporate space. It's as if it was dreaming me for this role. - Yes, it is. - So a lot of the work that I do with athletes is at that subconscious level that's around guided visualizations and meditations. And I did a communications degree. I learned how to write. I learned how to bring things to life in pictures. I know. - But that's the vision. Ultimately, it's what I'm moving towards. And the more vivid you can make that, and I can totally see where communication and creating that picture has the highest value. 'Cause often people don't realize that they know what they, they're even running out on field. They know what they don't want, but they, they're not sure what they do want. Or they classic football. Like, if I get an early touch, and I'm like, well, we can't be as vulnerable as, so if you don't get an early touch, are we done for the rest of the game, right? So their picture of success is limited, and therefore it's a hard thing to move towards. And so I can totally see where the comms help. - And I just think I'm saying to my kids all the time, like just keep moving. Like everything that you do will contribute to the end game somewhere along the line, but just keep moving. If you're not happy where you are, just keep moving as long as what you're moving to is gathering more experience, more skills, more tools. It will come to you somehow. You don't actually have to know what the end pitch is gonna look like. - Yeah, I agree. - That you just have to keep going into places, really open-minded to what you can learn and what you can get out of that space. And one day, well, for me, it was like, I could never have, if you'd given me a million guesses, I would never have guessed that this is where I'd end up. And this all, I was like 40 when I made this change. - On that topic, I was asked the other day, 'cause I'd done youth programs all around the world before I did this and someone asked, well, how'd you make the transition? I said, well, it took seven years, actually. There you go, I was sort of scoffed as in shock, like seven years. And I said, well, I could do a corporate function, but they wouldn't call again or the feedback would be average. But when I was just to do the other programs, the phone would just ring like crazy. And I said, it took me seven years to formulate my models, understand the vocabulary of my customer, be able to not have anybody go, yes, sort of, like the audience, have the audience say, oh my god, that's true. Oh my god, that works. Oh yes, yes. And then eventually the evidence was I would do one function and the phone would just ring. The back of it, just rings now. That's the marketing of its competency, basically. But that took seven years. So if you look back at that transition, how long do you think it took from one to the other? Look, it's still going. I can't even think, I'm nearly, you know, I feel like every year I look back at the previous year and think, god, I'm completely different the way I work this year to last year. There's a handful of athletes who I've worked with along the time that are now, you know, finished their sporting careers and they've gone into this space. And I look at them and they, I think they sometimes compare themselves to me. Yeah, of course it would. And it's like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, I know. It's like, my god, there is like 15 years of like growth and learning and I look back to the first time I ever spoke in public, I'm like, oh my god, I was useless. So I, yeah, I would say seven years, yeah. It's about, right, isn't it? Something like that. Like you can be, you're effective. Like you're moving in it, like you're not doing the old job and stuff. But I talk about like Tennis or Golf when you hit a ball perfectly, you feel it. And I used to be in the industry, but I'd miss it. You know, like I just, ah, it was a bit clumsy or there was a quicker way to say that. So even your point earlier about how you would just do one call and put them on the way. And that was enough. Like I now often will just say this and I'll do one call with them. And one call is actually often enough for a lot of people. Unless they're moving into a bigger and bigger crisis, right? More and more challenges. But before I couldn't do it in one sentence, I would take me three sessions because I'm searching, you know. I remember clearly the first time Dylan Grimes, the session with Dylan Grimes. I reckon I prepped for that session for like a week. It's good. And the amount of prep I did in the notes I wrote and this and that and everything else, I'm like, oh my gosh. And I can, I would say I could have any athlete in the world whether I even knew the sport or not, sit down right now in front of me with no prep and I would be able to have a session with them that moved them to high performance. And I would feel very confident around that. And I think it's interesting for the people who want to move into the space that we're in, like, like on 50, right? And so I don't think I should be on any pedestal. I think one of the, in the industry, like for people who want to have the same sort of role. I'm just last man standing. Other people started in the industry at the same time as me and ended up moving on different things. And I somehow just continued. And there's a large part for just staying in something for a long period of time. Sooner or later, your skill gets better. But I do think what you're pointing out about, okay, we're doing some stuff for free and we're clocking up the hours there and we're not expecting to get paid. And then eventually we're getting invited to a session and we are doing three weeks worth of prep. And I'll show if I talk about this in a bit before, but I remember helping Corey McCurden and I helped him for a couple of games, but there was one game I helped him and he went out after that game and he's in touch with the ball once. (laughing) And I saw him interview you about, on Fox foot, he was something about it about that one game where he didn't touch the ball. And he said, yeah, I really cocked up. I was in the wrong head space. And I was like, tell him what that was. I said, dad, that was my fault, you know? And Corey was on that journey to that point. He was at North Melbourne at the time and eventually went to Carlton. But I think that's an important milestone. How much work's going in there? You're at a rate and as you eventually get to a point where you don't miss, but it's because you've just done so many hours, so many courses. - Yeah, but I think you raised a really important point. Like last year I was at the Paris Games. - Yeah, I want to ask you about that. - Yeah, and I was in the village and I was working with the men's Olympic hockey team. I also had some individual athletes, they did well. But I was primarily there for the Cookbarrers. I was accredited with the Cookbarrers. And they failed spectacularly. Like they won the leading international tournament. So they were one of the favourites and then they didn't even make the medals. - Yeah, cool. - And then I came straight back from Paris into this one's finals campaign. And swans were the minor primators and they got through to the grand final, but they got obliterated on the field. And I woke up the morning after the grand final and we had a lot of people staying at the house 'cause they were all swans and we're gonna be in this grand final and I sort of had to tip you toe around bodies. I got the dog and I went for like a two hour dog walk just thinking, what have I missed? Like what did I not see? What did I, you know, really? I had actually prized that point, never worked with an athlete whose performance didn't meet expectation. That sounds ridiculous, but I'd only had, oh, you know, most polls in history, back to back to back champion, throw your premierships. And then I started to go through, maybe it's all a fluke. Maybe I actually don't know what I'm doing and I've just happened to crack some good athletes and I don't know what I'm doing. And by the end of the walk, I had sort of really analysed, okay, what the athletes had performed well versus swans in the cook bar, what was different, what was the same, I looked at the patterns and I sort of connected the dots between past trauma in the teams and this trauma coming up in these big pressure moments. And I'd made the decision by the end of that walk, I'm going to become the best performance by coach in the world of helping athletes who have had a major loss, a major fail, come back and not fall into the trap of, once a choke or always a choke or something. That was on a Sunday. By Monday, I had found the person around the world that I wanted to study with. I had connected with them by the Wednesday I was on a plane to go and do that study. And so I think the important point is to, you're always working on your craft. Like you always have to remain curious. You always have. have to be trying to grow and go to the next level. And it's what I love about this space is that I never have a session where I don't come away and go, oh, I'm so drunk. I can see that. And so how can you say, when you, you know, one year into it, that you've, I know what I'm doing as a performance coach, I still-- I think in the early days, you know, there's this image that people feel like they've got to live up to. They've got their house in order. And it's sort of like a perfection. And I don't get everything right. And I think over time, you know, there's a greater authenticity and more natural. I refer to as, but you want to get to the point where you're confident and natural. And not forced and stiff in a way. And the failures on the way are a critical, critical. But I do think the early days of somebody doing it there, they kind of got the bluff because you don't have the skill yet, right? You've got all this braw passion. And eventually you have that day where you're in perspective and you need to work out like you. I've totally had those days over and over. And I talk about them. It's something I talk about them. I think people just sort of-- I try to say to the people, especially if I talk on stage about it. I'm like, I tell them about a failure. And I go, go, this wasn't a Disney moment. This is me not getting out of my bedroom for three days in pain, challenging myself on every single part of it. Journey, what did I miss? How did that go wrong? And looking for the answer so that next time, I'm more diligent about something. I understand a new variable. I'm brave to-- maybe there was a conversation. I just didn't feel like I'd get that person or the team to have. And I'm like, how am I going to get through all those persons defenses? Not because I want to attack them. But that's the topic we need to talk about. And it is painful. And I think at each one of those junctions, you've got an opportunity to step out of the market, but out of the industry. But I think the most critical thing there is to not blame. I'm trying to discover it. It's easy to go, oh, but they didn't do these three things. That's not really helpful because I'm part of the process. So it has to be on me. And I remember when I helped Marie Kaguura with one race. She was a bit skeptical about the space. And she was a great swimmer. And she went eight events in the Australian Championships qualifying for the Olympics. And in the one event, I helped her with. She went slower. And she came and she was pissed. I got PBs in every other race. So I clearly miss something. And I talked to her about it a couple of weeks ago. Actually, it was quite funny. I said, do you remember that? And she's like, yeah. But what happened is I said, sorry. I said, I said, sorry. And I was like, I don't know. And what-- What do you think you miss? Well, this is what actually turned out. We ended up sending a world record in that event. And whether it be chance or direct, but what I worked out is that people have a certain distance into the future that they can naturally see. So we were discussing the Australian Championships, maybe six months out. But it was too far off. So that every time you were talking about was quite theoretical. It was a bit academic. It was, you know, you've got the house you dream of buying. And then the house you're actually looking at online to buy. There's a disconnect. And what we ended up discovering that she could set her goals two to three weeks in advance and be really engaged in that. Because that felt within reach. So in the future, we started to set targets much closer. And rather than having this-- what what are you going to do two years from now, six months from now, it's like, what's the next three weeks success look like? And it was going up steps. She could strive in those three weeks, and then she'd see the next target. And that was the core of that era. It was just too far off. Yeah. So she couldn't feel it. And I wasn't noticing that she wasn't feeling it. Well, I-- I should bring you Ron here and talk to about that stuff. Because she's very, very capable woman and very that's a killer. I had an incident once. Scott McLaughlin was a Melbourne Grand Prix. And he was on a winning streak. And it was like he had one more win and he'd be the biggest winning streak sort of in the history of the sport. And Scots' starts had always not been great. And they weren't really his strength. But it was sort of like we had other things to deal with. We weren't at the point of sort of worrying about his starts. And then we'd got to the point where it's like, OK, we're going to focus on the starts and sort of happen to couple of races before the Melbourne Grand Prix. And we'd got into this routine of before Scott raced, I would do a visualization with him around the start. Now, I was using hypnotic tools. Because one of the qualifications I have is in hypnosis. I never call it hypnosis. And I know what you mean. And also the NLP thing is a similar tool. And then there's this sort of make you and morph your own version of it. So I sort of have my own version. But ultimately, there is some hypnotic suggestion going on. And what I always find interesting with this blows my mind, with that hypnotic state is that I would create visualizations with Scott around his starts. And I would use-- so the mind's very suggestible. And it's about creating a picture for the mind. And so I would create like a picture of the start. You're like a drag race or taking off sort of thing. And then you would hear the commentary saying, oh, Scott McGlachlan, you know, it's like he's bloody drag race. So I see that in football and I've got to swap all the time. If I put a hypnotic suggestion in the commentators, often use the words that I've just used. That's interesting. So we're at the Melbourne Grand Prix, Scott's on this winning streak. We do our normal hypnosis that I would never call hypnosis beforehand, because I do want to make it clear. It's not technically I'm using a version of it that I'm not trying to pull over the athletes. Exactly. It's in a relationship with that. I'm just doing a guided visualization. Exactly. But some of the techniques put you in that-- Well, it's a sophisticated visualization. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's funny how some of these words you say, Kev, because they've kind of got this connotation from a bygone ear. And that's not how that craft works. So Scott goes out into that. So one of the techniques I was using was that on the start line that he loses sight of the things on either side of him and what's in front of him, because he's on pole, which for the listeners means he's the first person on the grid. So what sort of really comes up into his vision is what's in front of him. And then we blow that vision up. So it's like really on steroids. So it's like he's getting more connection with that environment. But the information that he doesn't need is sort of dulled out to the background. And where I'm at now is a performance coach. I would do that differently, but that's what I did at the time. I was having success. But what I didn't say, I didn't say in my visualization, I didn't say when you get to the start line, that stuff will get out of you. I just said, you're in the car. Everything to the side of you goes out of you. But I didn't say when you get to the start line. So he gets in the car and you have like a formation lap to get to the start line. He gets in the car. His subconscious mind blocks out everything to the side of him. He swerves and takes out another car. And he's not even at the start line of the race. And I'm like looking. And then I'm like, oh my god, I didn't say once you get to the start line. Scott gets back to the garage and Scott's confused. Because he genuinely didn't see the car. That's how powerful our mind can be with the power of suggestion. So he goes to punch on with the driver in the pits. And I'm standing there going, I actually think I do this. Because I forgot to say when you get to the start line. I didn't say anything to him then because I was like, oh my god, what have I done? But in time I've sort of fessed up. But yeah, so-- We don't always know, too. It's all happening so fast. It's just an idea. Well, it's learning. I'm like, OK, make sure whenever I do a visualization that I'm super clear about the words I use and the picture that I'm creating. It's very tricky that-- it's very tricky that. And I've made similar mistakes. And you're just creating a picture. Like one of the things that I did at one of the swimmers in I, they asked for a visualization tool. So I did an audio so that they could listen to it and run through. And I put a start as gun in it. And I really researched the start as gun. But as it turned out, the starting gun at the Olympics was a slightly different timing, right? Or a different sound. I would say time. Actually, it wasn't actually the Olympics. It was actually-- it would have gone through Australian championships. But I reckon that was an error. Because you're trying to be prepared. But what I've also learned is that I've tried to create actually lots of pictures because they've got to be ready for the variable. But these are the things that are only tested when you're measuring thing by 100th of a second. Otherwise, you can do that at a junior level. And it sort of just doesn't really matter. Because the model I would say, if kids are at a running race at primary school, there's a dad out the front saying, first, second, third, fourth, just pointing. And eventually, you know, mom's got a ribbon out. And they're going to run through the ribbon. And then eventually, they have to measure it with the clock. And then you get to the highest level in it. And it's measured. So often, what I enjoy about sport-- I don't work a lot of athletes at the moment. They still call them just-- it's difficult because I'm mainly working with people who write code and software and things. It's a different sort of challenge. I just sort of draw-- I always draw on to what the next thing which tests me. But it's not until you in that athletic environment where you're understanding something is truly being tested. Is it just a, I believe, I can fly a strategy or is it? And until it's being measured, you don't know. And so I enjoy that. It's interesting because when I watch, say, drive to survive, which I love watching, do you watch that, actually? Yeah, because it's interesting because people People have been saying to me, "Oh, Mark, you should watch it." And I was actually involved in that sporting incident. And I've got no interest in watching that. I just don't want to relive it. I was like, "Oh, this is really interesting behind the scenes." I'm like, "Well, I live by. " I know, I don't care. But I don't know anything about Formula One. And I love it. It's so cutthroat, it's so clear, it's so measured. I like the clarity of that. I don't like when I cock up and I'm wrong, but I also don't like things being vague. And I think that as you move into more challenging environments which are more highly measured, it's exciting to test your knowledge and to work out, can I make it apply in a way that moves the needle? - Yeah. How did you move into code, people running codeons? - Yeah, okay, a few things happened. So a long time for 20 years, I was doing youth programs around the world. And I really enjoyed that until I said to you before, I was plugging in a smoke machine one day, I was like, "It's done, my soul was just done." It was very odd. Never thought that would happen. Another thing I realized is that I do a lot of speaking functions, but and I really love them. But if somebody's not having a conference, I don't necessarily in that industry have any work. And I realized if I built my own community that I looked after, which why I do these recordings, is then I'd always have a community that I could help them and potentially, I'll connect them however, and also earn money. And so I started a business club where I just took very at the time that people were paying and that's nothing like 300 bucks or maybe it was 15 or $200 for the whole year and we just get together and they were just really tiny businesses. And over time I work with bigger businesses and bigger businesses. And just like you with the sports things, somebody would see someone's business change and they say, "I know somebody. Could you talk to my husband or could you talk to whoever?" And over time I found that the software space is highly profitable because you build it once and sell it a million times. So when I've worked with tradis, that's much harder because they're on the tools that they can't even turn up to a session. They're always end up getting dragged away. But the challenge with people who do write code is, they're so smart, but they often think that that knowledge automatically transfers to other areas of life and it doesn't. There's a different psychology that's required in each different role. HR has a different way that does, then ops does, then a CEO does, then the head of marketing, Chief Financial Officer, they've all got different frameworks of thinking, different aptitudes, natures, instincts. So it's often hard to have them be what I call a thoroughbred where they really specialize in their one area and teach them to partner with other people who can handle that area better, even though their instinct is to think, but I think I could do it better than them. It's been super challenging. I think it's the hardest role I've ever had. - Oh, how come? - Because of exactly that, they find it very hard to stay in their own lane. Like, I don't try to become a Chief Technical Officer. I don't try to come head of marketing. I don't try to do it. I go, I know my role. They are so smart, typically, that they think, oh, well, I could work that out. 'Cause in their DNA, they're very good at solving problems. - Are they in startups or what? - It would vary. So there's some established businesses, like I might expand on that, like off air, but couple of startups generally profitable, like super profit, like some of those, like turning over millions, and it's a case of like, then being very talented. Okay, so the basic model would be, you've got a very talented person that's consulting to companies, writing them some software that they need, to customer software. And then you look at that and you ask, well, if one person needs it, is it possible that lots of people actually need what you're writing? And instead of just being a gun for hire, we could organize that, so it's a product. So over time, you might morph their business so that it goes from being a service provider to, actually let's write some code to solve every single piece. And now instead of me having three customers, I've got 150 customers. - So you're helping them build the business as opposed to them perform their best as a person? - Yeah, so my skill set has morphed from, I guess I'll language it around, you need to understand how things work. So I understand how business works. So therefore, like you understand, Netball and being an athlete, so therefore you can contribute, because I understand business, I'm pairing two things, I can look at their business model and check whether or not, even if they're at their best, could they succeed at that model? Like the person wants to be rich by the selling of $5 a yoga class. Well, that's just not gonna work. So you're looking for that, how do I guide that person so they can be a thoroughbred and develop the skills so that they can interact with the other parties required? How do they get them to know when to step in to something, when to step away from something? One of the things I first check is, if they're a boss, have they ever sacked anyone before? Because often they've got a team that they're tolerating, 'cause they actually don't know how to let someone go. So when they step into that, I find a lot of their fear is actually just because they don't have the skill. They don't know what to say. So the fear is disproportionate. If I show them a method for doing that, in a way that's super helpful to that person, then their fear subsides. So I'm always checking, okay, is the skill set or mindset issue? So I'll often have a bigger vision for their business than they do. I'll help them see that. We create that picture and then we progressively move to it over a period of time. And then along the way, there's an evolution that they have to do. There's different stages they have to go through. There's some stages where they've just got to find the time to do like you've done that extra study to build, the thing like I've done right now, right the book, "How the hell am I gonna do this?" And so there's one challenge at the end of it. There's another challenge and another challenge. And eventually your business guest or point is humming. But you can not feel like there are awards are there because you haven't decided what you want to do instead. So you keep getting sucked back in even though the business doesn't need you. So there's all these different stages that I sort of taking somebody through. And it's not unlike the athlete that in the early stages who they are are the athlete is one thing. And then eventually they're older. And they've got to play a more strategic role. They've got to be smarter about their rehab. They can't train like they've got to pick different battles. So yeah, so it's just different and it interests me a lot. And it's much more lucrative to be able to help people make a lot of money. - Yeah. - But I do miss, when the Olympics was on last year, I was texting a couple of the coaches and we were watching a different half of you athletes. And I'd had my hand and just little things. But I felt the juices. I was like, oh, actually I missed this. - Yeah, it's a camaraderie I think or something. - Yeah, and it's a pressure that's hard to recreate. It's something that you don't get in anything else. I don't think. - I remember Michael Clems saying that to me after I said, hey, you go and retire and stuff. He goes, oh, I just missed the adrenaline job. I just missed spin on the blocks. And he was cycling at the time and doing a lot of racing on a bike. He's just not the same. And I probably, I can't appreciate that particular thing 'cause I haven't competed at level at all and even remotely. But I do liken it to being at a conference and speaking. Like I enjoy the challenge of that. I enjoy the difficult audience. I enjoy that it's straight after lunch and everybody's tired. I did one function and just after all these briefing calls I just went on stage, just about to go out in the car. I said, oh, like, although I'm back in the last three years, nobody has ever managed to finish their session to these guys 'cause they're hard to manage. - Oh, gosh. - And I'm like, you don't think you can. - They mean. - Well, they just, they're just, you go maniacs that just don't even let you get a word out. They were just big, burly sales people living at all commission. And I also think that the head office had probably just wheeled out some pretty average speakers. - Right. - But my point is like when I first off thought, well, you probably could have mentioned that in one of the briefing calls that we did. And they told me that just a few minutes before we were on stage and they said, oh, well, if you can't do the fourth, two hours, it's okay to finish early. And I was like, no, you know, and so it was a battle. It was a tough gig. But I'd won them over in the first, like it took me 15 minutes, would you just take me like less than that? But I, that's my equivalent of throwing me into a furnace. I like that challenge. And I would miss that. I don't know where else you get that level of accountability. That's my craft. And I do feel for the athlete that they spend their whole life affecting something, whether, you know, up until, say, say 25, 30 if you're lucky, unless you're an endurance athlete, perhaps, and then they just can't do it anymore. That's a very hard thing. So I can keep doing what I do for a lifetime. All things going to plan. But the athlete is, it's a very difficult challenge. So one of the things, actually, like your thoughts on this, but when I start working with an athlete, I really plant the seed that you're not an athlete, you're world class, you're world class. Now that can play out anywhere. At the moment, we're doing this. And when you do the next thing, you'll be world class. And I really look to create a brand or an identity that has longevity. Because if they're a footballer, then they're done. Who am I at the end of that? And it's something I've learned probably through failure as well is, can I get people a successful well beyond this little patch? Can it just soak into them for a lifetime? Yeah, I mean, I think probably one of the most important things, which is similar to what you're saying, slightly different, is trying to connect them to a purpose of what they're doing that's not reliant on the outcome. Because if an athlete is just reliant on that outcome to validate their work and validate who they are, then that's a very shaky sort of situation to be in. And so one of the biggest things that you're trying to do in this space is to get your client to detach from the outcome, but really know, and the purpose might be, I'm going to be world class. Now, world class does not mean I win the world champion. If you're world class is how I handle myself, how I manage my sponsors, how I put my profile out there, how I have those conversations. And if my purpose is to be world class in everything that I do, then you're not at this mercy of if the outcome doesn't go your way, you're shattered, you can't perform, you know? exactly right and I think I'm a little it might sound really obvious, but just so you know what happens is you say that to a young person and they go, "No, I'll fuck that." I'm like, "This is like that's a good decade and I'm going to do this." And you know, "Okay, okay, and so you're trying to bring wisdom to a young person." Yeah. You know, highly hostile, like these are competitive beast these people. And then the people who are senior to them are competitive beast and they're worth gazillions and they just like, "It is a difficult environment." And it's like I get that that your desire to win and your attachment to the need to winning is what's derailing your performance. And so we have to untangle that so that you can win. We're not untangling it because we don't want you to win and you don't want to win. We're untangling it so that you can execute your process in a way that allows you to win. Yeah, that's the conversation that I've had most I found it the most potent conversation is around identity and who are you? Who are you being? Like I often talk about, I used to say, you know, "Toggle Woods at the age of six." It was always going to be "Toggle Woods" just hadn't played out yet. And the artist's pink was a kid and she was always going to be the artist's pink. It just hadn't played out yet. And I try to have my talent even as you're listening, you know, the thing that you want, it is you. It is you. If you're imagining it, it's yours. It just hasn't played out yet. And so be present in that journey towards it and allow it to unfold and play your role on the journey. But if it's so vivid in your mind, if it feels just so natural, it just makes sense that you're there, it will unfold. And the more I lean into knowing who I am rather noticing than what I don't have, then whole energy shifts. But these are big concepts. When I first will sit with somebody, they've usually got a bunch of things that they're trying to solve, that they're worried about. And they're really symptoms of something else. But it's like they've had a conflict with a coach and there's this weird tension there and they've had this string event. So they've got one opponent always beats them and they pissed off about that and then their sponsor wants them to do this. But that doesn't work. And they've often got a haze of things going on around that there needs to be unpicked before you can get to a really powerful conversation. You kind of got to get them out of their crisis. And I on on a on a respect to all those things. Yeah, you do need to resolve that with a coach. So those things often need in my experience. I often will give them a strategy and say look the way that's resolved is A, B and C. And then eventually, once I've got through what I call the thousand shitty things, I can then have the conversation with the one thing that I know will have the greatest substance and greatest impact. I'm curious to about the way you structure your relationships. They have I just think of my community. There are some people that just call me up once in a blue moon and they need a phone call. And there's other people that like to talk to me every week. There's other people that's every month. There's other times it's a project. I mean, they're for a season for three or four months. And the other thing I like to do with my billing is a difficult thing to be charging people money for two things. They're very sincere in intimate conversation. Sometimes it's really personal and you feel it feels lame to charge money for something. So it's just one to be part of you feel like a friend. The other thing that is tricky is that if I I can solve it in seven minutes. So we charge them by the hour because you can hire someone else by the hour and you'll get more hours. But you know, I can solve it like right now. So maybe you can give everyone a sense of how all those relationships play out professionally. There's probably something that don't pay, there's something that do pay, there's something like how does it loosely work? I think that that has been the biggest challenge I have found in this space. I think I'm getting better now. But at the start, as we've already said, I did so much work for nothing. And I got a lot of criticism from that from people around me. And I just had a gut feel. It was the right way to go. I call it my mafia strategy. It's like, help people in high places and it will always come back. You know, some way. But yeah, I got a lot of criticism from that. But I just felt like and probably there was a lack of self worth was really behind why I wasn't charging. And I didn't know how to charge everything you've just said, I charge for that. Do I not charge for that? And I also had so many people that want stuff and then they don't want to pay. And I didn't know whether to say yes or no. So I just did a whole lot of work that you could have looked at the time and gone, that's ridiculous. You're just helping so many people for so little return. But it enabled me to hone my craft. That's right. The only way to hone your craft is by seeing a lot of people, a variety of people, different problems. And if you just pick and choose things on what you're getting paid, you're not going to be good. And eventually what gets you where you need to be is that you're good at what you do. So then I really struggled exactly what you're saying. How much am I worth for a one-on-one session? I still, I don't offer one-on-one sessions because I still don't have the answer for that. So I think I can help anyone in four to six sessions you've done. I don't, I'm going to help somebody in one session. Yes. But there's probably a sweet spot where you cement it. Four to six sessions. But then I'm like, okay, I could do four to six sessions with that person or I could speak on stage once and that's going to pay me better. So then I have that opportunity cost sort of thing. And so I've gone around and around and around for years not knowing the right thing to do. I feel like I'm clear on it now. My joy comes from working with an athlete across the season to get the ultimate sort of result. So the only work I do with athletes is if you have me for a season. Yeah. And I've cut out all the. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I'll work with you for four sessions. It's like I just, I don't want that. And it's taken time, but I think now I'm at a place where they've stopped calling, which feels better because I used to get quiet. It's very uncomfortable to say no. And I felt like am I stupid? I've just said no like to that person who could possibly win the brown low. And I've just said no to them, you know. But I drew a line in the sound with that. So I now have a model where I want like, you know, sort of five clients and I'm with for the whole season. I'll only do one team, you know, because the team's a lot more people and and then I do speaking and then I have X amount of corporate clients, which I still don't think I ever get the billing right for that. It's tricky stuff. It's really hard, but I think the learning so the people listening is it's a lot of work at the start to get to the point where you can be picky or cheesy. Well, it doesn't have to be, but for me, I think that's what made me successful. And when I look back when I was a rich fan for a club, when those boys played a game, I would text every player at like 11 if it was a night game. I'm texting them at midnight. Had you feel out there? Like I think the worst model in this space is the typical psychology model, which is like make an appointment with me once every, you know, fortnight. It's like the athletes, particularly I went mainly with male athletes. It's like the conversation I'm going to have with them after they put their car in the wall that night, which can be for me at three o'clock in the morning. I'm never going to capture those feelings and that mental state two weeks later, a time that works for me. Now, when I do get asked for a client, particularly Matt, because I've talked about that a few times because Matt attempted to go back to the Olympics after being out for seven years, which was a crazy journey. And we just missed, but when he called me, I said, I'm a, I go, I go, wife and kids now, I don't have that freedom. And I, I spoke to Broner about it first and said, okay, are we, are we doing this because I might get a call the two in the morning, you know, I don't know how this plays out. Not because it's reckless. It's just because he's running international. You don't know when the problem is, you don't know when the, something's on the front page of the paper that shouldn't be there and they're asking to comment, just stupid stuff happens. Something you can't even imagine. And even the way I have built through the years is, he's not for a session, but for a minimum amount of now, it's like three months. Oh, there's a few different models. It's because I don't know when I'm going to have to text you and phone you. I just got to have a, a set and forget fee. And I don't know when it's going to be. Yeah, the worst I can't do the charge by a session because what about the recording I'm going to make for you and the, for text and the, you know, everything else, but. Well, I think those regular sessions solve different problems. I think they've solved possibly less urgent problems. And not always performance problems. There's something that they can grapple around. It's not as pressing that they can think it through over a long period of time where like you, it's a pressure cooker like you, you feel the ups and downs, you know, they're trying to process it. You kind of want to rescue them from their pain. Also, you want to take a good conclusion because you don't want this negative idea that they've, this conclusion they've got to run for three or four days now. I've got to un-pick that and they've, you know, made some poor choices in between. Not because these, I'm going to say these two people, aren't stupid. It's just like all of us, you know, like you can be in a huff about something with, about your kids or your wife or anything and you go. And then later on someone tells you, "Oh, yeah, it's true. That was all on me." Like you, you're just trying to get people to what is true as quickly as possible and you, it's super complicated. I actually have created an audio on that and I'll put it on the micro library soon and I'm happy to share it with you, but it's called the Art of Billing as a Coaching. I've just sort of mapped out everything that I like. Oh, wow. All right. Yeah. And I think I could do another, an updated version. But yeah, it's super helpful just to hack it out. Yeah. I think ultimately, if you're in this space, it has to, like I know it's my highest. priority value. It's what brings me most joy. It's my purpose. Because a lot of my work is two, three in the morning on a weekend. The athletes I work with can be on a weekend. So I'm not drinking when potentially they're going to call at whatever time in the morning. And that never feels like a sacrifice to me. It feels like it completely fills me up. I get really invested in their journeys and really connected to them. And if you want to be successful in this space, I think it has to be something that genuinely is a purpose for you and a passion for you. Well, this is the only way you can sustain. I see people step into this. I had a friend who's very, very capable and he stepped into coaching and he said, "Oh, no, double. You can do it like this and you do it like that." And I said, "Well, I found that I can coach about four people a month and that's it." He's like, "No, no, no, because you do this and do that anyway after six weeks he's out." Because there's a certain level of emotional energy, a certain amount of words you can use and you've got to have something reserved for your family and it is a role of co-star. Let's just talk about one more thing before we start to close out. But the speaking thing is interesting too. So when you go to corporates, what is it that you're often bringing? What is it that you're being asked to talk about? But what if you learn there about what they need or what's helpful or how this can apply in because it's not really a high performance environment. They're all working hard. It's not as accountable. It's not being measured by 100th a second. Right? If somebody turns up as a sick day, it's not really a big deal. Oscar Piazzi turns up for sick day. That's a problem. So what do you bring? Well, I never set out to be a speaker that happened by accident for me. I have a son who broke his neck and sustained a spinal cord injury, leaving him a quadriplegic and there was a fundraising event that I, as his forewill and as his mother, I spoke at that fundraising event. And this happened to be the same year that Richman was winning their first premiership. But I hadn't won yet. So I wasn't anyone of great importance. And I didn't even know speaking was a thing. I didn't even know it was a career. I had never thought about who speaks at these conferences. And at the end of me speaking, Barry Markov came up to me, gave him his card and I don't even know what this is about. I caught up with him and he. Barry was at that talk. That's incredible. Yeah, I know, right? He's ahead of a big speaker, right? Incredible. Most people look for that. Someone like that to be the audience, their whole career and you just had it happen first time. Yeah. That's insane. Yeah, yeah. And again, like, but I followed it up. So like I didn't know anything about speaking, but I followed it up. And you've got to remember, I'm a mum to four kids. My son has just broken his neck. So he's in a hospital quadriplegic. Our life has literally been turned upside down. We have to renovate our home. We're living in my parents' home. Trauma at the most extreme level. I've got this corporate job I'm trying to get out of. I'm doing Richmond on the side. And I follow up the speaking guy. So I also am doing the work. And so that sort of kickstarted that. But I was never taught to speak. I'd never given it any thought. But I think what was unique in my situation is like, okay, I've studied. So I have this trauma story that's engaging people love the story of trauma and surviving trauma. And I'm living it. I'm real life. Hey, this is how to be resilient in trauma. But I'm also studied the particular, you know, modalities that enable you to be a coach. But I'm also working as a coach in our high level public, you know, very popular space. So it was like, I think some people that speak of just bringing the trauma element, the life story. Some people are speaking because I'm the coach. Some people are speaking because I work at Richmond Football Club. But I sort of had all three. And what I have learned in that speaking space, it wasn't deliberate for me, but how my formula is like, I tell a story, then I teach from that. And then I bring it to life for them in their world. So it's this mixture of storytelling of my world. Actual real life coaching from proven principles and then bring it to life in their world. And I think some speakers do a good job of telling their own story, but can't then pass it into their world. So I think that's the strength that I've been just speaking. And what I try to bring, I don't ever, I'm very clear with clients, I am not here to just entertain your clients. Like I want to facilitate change. I want to teach them something. I'm a coach by profession. So I won't do any speaking gigs that are less than an hour. I'm nearly to the point where I'm like, if they're not 90 minutes, I'm not doing them. I won't speak on like, are you okay days or any of those mental health days because I'm not a mental health expert. I'm a coach, a performance coach. So if you want someone who can facilitate change in that state. So this raises a really important point. I think if you're going into this space, know your niche. And your niche should, if you've got a background in something, use it to inform your niche. I think it's in trouble when someone's trying to, I help at home parents with mental health issues. And then I want to work with athletes and I want to work with CEOs, but I also want to work with people in call centers. And I want to work with people who have had traumatic health issues. It's like, no, you're lame and stain your lane. Yeah. And it takes a while to find that. Yeah, but I'm really clear about it. And I try, you know, organizations try to pull me. Oh, you're really good. Could you speak? And I'm not not my, not my lane. It's actually not my lane. Of lots of things that I say no to, too. Like I won't do after Dennis talks. I won't do Dennis talks. Yeah. And also because I'm not good at off-sync rate after Dennis tweaks. And they are hilarious. I know. I'm not your, I'm not the sort of guy. And I'm in my best mates at the music. You know, if you've lost a lead climber, every step of summer, you'd be so famous because I don't have the story the same way. Like I've got stories in my life, but I certainly don't use my part of work. I actually don't want any attention. I don't want attention. I'm comfortable at the front, but I'm there because I want to help. I obviously want to help. So I use stories all through it, but you know, there's some people that have climbed every store, done something. And I think that's an important thing for people to listen. If those people say they want to be a speaker, you get to speak when you've done something. You get invited to tell that story. And so I guess I tell stories about environments of help. But what I think is critical is that you eventually get to a point where, okay, so I don't have the story, which has been entertaining through these, but I've developed a skill set so I can help a lot. And that last bit, you talk about, I call it moving to action. And you said, you know, I wanted to show them how it turns up in their life. That's the bit that's most critical because then something happened. It wasn't. You weren't just a, you know, I didn't just strap too simple to my knees and, you know, dance around and go, hey, wasn't that great? Like something changes. And I remember one of my agents coming and she never heard me speak before and she came up after she was all excited. She was like, oh my god, Mark, like when you're talking, nobody really knows what's going to happen next. And I said, yeah, that's engagement. She's like, yeah, but like, but really, and she said, but also you like it actually changes. And it was interesting because I, it is an outlier craft. Can I actually move a needle? Can I actually, can I take a concept? Can I distill it enough? So you get it enough to then also work out the one thing and then to actually do it. Like that's often the shortest part of the presentation, but it really needs to be like, I'm going there from the right from the beginning. I'm like, okay, how am I going to get you to move? Because it just makes people so happy. They just feel so good when they, they did it. And I feel good and I beat myself up. Like we talk about the failures. If I'm missing in front of an audience and I feel like I didn't quite know like a tennis ball like they might have thought it was great, but I'll go, I I lose sleep over that. And I'm not okay until I do the next function. And I have another opportunity to redeem myself. Yeah. Because unless I move them to action, I feel like I missed. And and I'm the harshest critic on myself and the stashest critic on myself all every day of the week. I'm always, you know, critical about I didn't know that. I didn't get that right. It's right. It is. I think it's from a speaking point of view. What I find, I like it to have being at a dinner party. You talk for one hour at the dinner party. And then everybody's about it claps. And then you leave. And now they all talk about you. And then you're thinking, Oh, geez, I want to have that landed with that person and that person. I find up the front. I'm quite comfortable. But I'm a debrief at later. I go through every single line, every single era. It's not like I sit down diligently. It just happens at a subconscious level. I'll be driving and pops in and that was. Yeah. I went to a dinner at the other night. I hadn't met this person before. And but I had presented at an organisation where a friend of hers was there. And the friend of hers had come up to me in the break of the presentation. Oh my god, this is amazing. And this is great. And asked me all these questions. And I got the sense that she was having a difficult time with the culture of the place. And I just got the sense that just by the the the questions she asked. And she said, Oh, you're about to meet my friend, you know, because she started going out with a guy, I know and so I made this friend only a couple of minutes. I said, "Oh, you know, I met your friend at this conference." She said, "Yeah." She got sacked two days after the conference because the manager went to her and said, "Well, you were very vocal in that. You are asking lots of questions. If you're not happy, why don't you leave?" She can get sacked. It was like a mutual agreement. But I've lost sleep since I felt like, oh my God. I obviously ruffled some feathers and you know, so you don't know what effect what you're saying is having on the audience and what thoughts are provoked in them and what are our moments where they're like, "This is not right." - I've definitely got a radar for that stuff where I'm really listening to the brief. There are some people who've got to really tight 45 minutes and it's a great 45 minutes, but then they don't have a thing going on there and that's because they've got a different genre in a way. Where my talks, they've got similar sort of openings, but they're different. I can go directions needed and I really listen to the brief. And if I don't feel like I can nail the function, it's usually because the brief's not right, but also I've become much better at asking a lot of scoping questions. 'Cause you'll get things like, "Oh, you know, the sarsam, they just need to kick up the arse." And you know, someone's just got a tell it to them straight and that's not really a good plan. And all they'll say things like, "Well, they can just accept it. They just got accepted." When has that ever worked in life? I did a conference the other day, the theme was, "Win at all costs." And I said, "Oh, what does winning mean to you guys?" Like, you create a whole conference around winning at all costs. So what's the measurement of winning for you? Like, if I'm talking about to them, about winning, how are you measuring winning? What does that mean for this whole thing? Just no idea. No one had even thought. Like, you've just created this whole conference around winning at all costs and no one has asked a question. What does winning actually mean? Well, some conferences are more like a marketing exercise and they've got a philosophy to feel good. And that's great. And if I can read that, I'm like, "Okay, I can do that." But if you end for "I," it's like, "Well, if you want to win, we're kind of the people." You know, I don't like vague. Like, if you say, "Winning, I think, all right, we're going for gold." Like, "What's winning?" I had a conference too for a bank. It was a small group workshop. They were all very senior. And they wanted to move the net promoter score. And I said, "Oh, how's it measured?" And they didn't know. And I said, "Well, can we, let's find out." Like, we're in the start of a full day workshop. And they said, "Oh, we don't know, but can we just start getting on with it?" You know, "Can we just do it anyway?" I'm like, "No, we can't. Like, if you've hired me to help you hit the net promoter score, move it, how is it measured?" And so then they were on the phone outside trying to get basic data and stuff. And I guess partly that's sort of the workshop. You've got to find out. But like, Anthony Robbins has got this line. He says, when someone asks me a question, he says, "Well, do you really want to know?" Or you just ask him, "And I feel like that's what I've got to measure sometimes." Like, "Do you really need me?" Or you just think, "You know, you want the illusion of me." You know what? I know there's people who, they just want to coach. And I'm like, "Tell me when they got to coach." And he don't want me then. And I'm kind to that agenda. But it's tricky if I don't know. Right? So I've certainly gotten better that. And I do find there are some people that haven't thought it through. But I'm happy to work it out with them. I don't mind like, but it's harder when, I know some organizations, everybody's sort of disconnected from it. You know, there's, you can feel it. Yeah, it's an interesting. You learn a lot about companies. And it's very enjoyable. It's always a privilege to get the front. I know that the person who hives me so the back of the room just crossed their fingers. Hope and this was a good decision. And they're like, "Oh, if you're dying inside, just give me a wave and I'll change something." But I'm not naive to what a privilege it is. But it's also on the other side, on our side. It's really hard to take that brief, work out what we're meant to do in front of hundreds of people, not cock it up, go home and be able to sleep. And it's quite the craft. It's fun though. It is a lot of fun. God, and you make good people. Really good people. Yeah. So you must have found some companies that you've just connected with and then you've had a long relationship with them. Yeah. That's what I, that's the best fun. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's when it's good. Where you can get a bit deeper and, yeah. Yeah, it's not just a-- One and done. --flows you talk. Yeah, yeah. Hey, this has been awesome. When Emma and I first sat down, like we started talking as if we know each other forever, like within seconds. Like boom, boom, boom, boom. And I think because we're in the same industry, there was a high level of trust. But also, your ego is just aside. Like it's so refreshing. It's fun. And so this has been equally fun. And so as soon as we get up, we're going to finish this guys. And then we're going to finish it in the company just because my kids will be home soon. And they're going to destroy the house and change everything. But we can't help ourselves put it continually. There's about 27,000 other questions I've got for you. But hey, I feel like to gift-- before I got on this call, we were saying how I've just written a book and was exploring a book. I did the podcast and it's just a lot of these interviews. And we were saying why. And for me, I enjoy the conversation. But I just know that we've got knowledge in the space. It's a gift for the next generation. And I feel like you're just sharing so much. And I think people are going to listen to this guy and join the flow guy. Oh, God, that's so helpful. That's what I need to know. I hope so. Yeah, I just blindly made it up as I'm sure you made a lot of it up. And I think we're-- I'm fully aware that if I was trying to get into this space now, there's a lot more roadblocks to get into the AFL. You've got to be a psychologist. And to work in a school, there's certain qualifications that you need. So I do if people come to me and ask, where do I start? I'm like, if you've got the capacity, you go and get those qualifications, go and get those qualifications. Yeah. And then just work your ass off and don't worry about the money. Trust that it all sort of self-out. And don't be too infested in the sexy gigs. I remember that one of the very first workshops I ran my uncle organized it for his church group. And I turned up there. And he's like, oh, it was in his lounge room. And it was my uncle at Arnie. He's two sons, some other guy that came from the church. And he goes, oh, the other one else could make it. And there's like five people or something. It was just so awkward. But I did it. And that's where you cut your teeth. And that's where you earn an audience. That's why when I got the front now, I've earned my ability to stand up the front. So nothing phases me anymore because I've had so many uncomfortable gigs on the way. But this is awesome. So I always say to people, don't follow me. Don't go on social media. I don't post or anything. I like how terrible. I'm a social media. I'm really-- I have an awful relationship with social media, or I-- Well, it's probably a healthy one. I dip in there and do something because I get a little pressure. And then I hate it. And I dip out. And again, I ask myself the question, why am I doing this? Why do I want a social media profile? And I haven't got a good enough reason. Yeah, I don't have one. I just find no value in it. But my mafia network has got a long way to-- and that's just helping people. Whole heartedly-- It's just helping people. And Henry Kissinger said, success is a VIP invitation to a bigger crisis. And you help someone, and then you get invited to help someone else and invite someone else. And the stories get cooler, but they're just people. There might be more zeros involved. And the middle is a bigger, but they're just people. And it's just a game. And you're just trying to work out how to play the game in an enjoyable way. And that's why I do the podcast. I mean, I people aren't going to be able to follow me, because I don't post off, because I just don't have any appetite for it. But I'm happy to do this. And this is where they can continue the learning. Hey, thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I'm excited that now, anytime someone asks me, how do you get into what you're doing? You guys are podcasts. Go to Topos Podcast. That's great help. All right, folks. It's a pleasure. Catch you next time. Hey, folks. I hope you enjoyed the show. Today, he was sponsored by Mark Dobbs and Annie's family, because there is no finance behind this, except for me. Although I have no issue with that, it's a scratch I'd love to itch. I'm very happy to be generous with it. If you wanted to be a little bit more involved in the community, always reach out so you can get a listener number. However, there are a series of seminars in place now. Prior to COVID, we did loads. We had about 38 events a year. In 2026, we'll probably have about 12 to 15 events in the year. Reach out. If you'd like to be part of those, they typically are on a Thursday in Melbourne. You can join online. All the information is on the website. dobo.com.au. If you don't find what you need there, just shoot us a message and somebody will get back to you.