Military Medical Retirement: VA Disability, IDES, PEBLO, PEB, MEB, + More #214

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Military Money Manual podcast. Spencer Rees here from militarymoneymanual.com. Today we're talking about military medical retirement, which is a topic that I am not very familiar with. So I'm going to learn a lot on this episode. I'm very excited for our two guests today. First of all, we've got Paul, not his real name, but he's going to go by Paul. He's a long time military money manual listener and sometimes contributor speaking anonymously today following his fourth deployment with a national guard who's diagnosed with chronic PTSD and celiac disease and while eligible for a regular act of duty to retirement with 60% longevity multiplier, his state's HR encouraged him not to pursue a medical retirement. He did so anyways and was retired from the army on permanent disability retired list last summer at 80% 50% for PTSD and 50% for celiac disease. Having the IDES, which is the medical board process, the VA rated him at 100% permanent and total enabling him to fully retire and support his wife in her new career. He's also working with D-Fast on activating his concurrent retirement and disability pay, CRDP and his break even for combat related special compensation. That's CRSC. We're going to hit a lot of acronyms in this episode. I'm excited to get all the definitions of these soon and that's going 40% combat related for his CRSC. He lives outside of the national command region. Has several teenagers and is coming in at the young age of 46 years old. Paul, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here and I'm going to introduce Joel next as well. Joel Pettit is a former Marine Corps judge advocate Washington DC based attorney specializing in the military disability retirement via the integrated disability evaluation system or the IDES. He's represented hundreds of service members and veterans from all military services, including the U.S. Coast Guard and during the pre-IEDS process through the post-IEDS appeals before founding Joel Pettit Law. Joel served in the Department of the Navy's TD RL unit at the FPEB aboard the Washington Navy yard. He gives a character intelligence advisor in the ICD intelligence community and worked as a healthcare executive at the VD kidney care. Joel holds an MBA from Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management and a JD from Washington University in St. Louis. Joel, welcome to the show. Paul, I want to start with your story. So, there was a lot happening there in your intro. Why did you decide to go for the medical retirement versus just the standard longevity retirement? And maybe let people know, like, I think a lot of our listeners are familiar with the standard 20-year longevity retirement. What is going on with this medical retirement thing? Hey, thanks, Spencer. I first want to thank you for sending multiple copies of your book when we were deployed on my fourth deployment, staff enjoyed them and hopefully they're working toward financially free. The moment and to answer your question for me was, it was six years ago now during a war fighter exercise. I encountered a reservist captain that I deployed with, I deployed with about 10 years prior. So he was a captain at the time, he actually was a PL at the time, platoon leader, who told me that he was retiring from the National Guard with 15 years of total service due to his PTSD, which has been rated over 30%. And this just, this blew my mind because, like you said, Spencer, we're all familiar with longevity retirement. It's due to your 20 and then collect half pay, add in finitum. But here was this captain who had had, you know, some bad experiences overseas. We were in separate units. And he only had 15 years of service at the time and he was going to be drawing an immediate medical retirement. So I kind of bookmarked that, knowing that I had more yesterdays than tomorrow's in my military career. And what I found in my journey through retirement on expert mode is how I'd characterize it. Is that a medical retirement isn't automatically better for everyone. But what it can do is it can accelerate benefits. It can protect part of your retirement income. It can reduce the risk to recall in practice and it can front load VA and healthcare access in ways that a straight longevity retirement can't. So I've got seven upsides to medical retirement for me, five caveats and then kind of a why more service members don't know about medical retirement that I can go into whenever you see fit. Okay. So when you say seven upsides, this is when you're making the decision, do I take a standard longevity retirement or do I apply for the medical retirement? Is that right? Yeah, that's exactly right. So because I was eligible for a longevity retirement with over 20 active federal service years, I basically did a course of action analysis on dropping my retirement request, you know, 12, 18 months out, vice obtaining diagnosis for medical conditions that I had. And requesting a referral into the disability evaluation system from my local military treatment facility. I had to be very proactive about this because there was a institutional hesitancy to refer me into the DES because it's not typically what people want. There's a tremendous amount of uncertainty and vagueness associated with being, quote, med-boarded, which is what we refer to it in the vernacular, vice, just pursuing a standard career. But some upsides for me and I can go into a met depth. You know, the number one was that I've got a higher retirement multiplier in my back pocket. I was medically retired at 80% vice, my longevity multiplier, which worked out to about 60%. In the event that at some point in the future, CRDP is discontinued. Remember CRDP exists in federal law under Title 10, but Congress can always amend those laws. You've all seen on YouTube the hearings about, you know, supposed veterans fraud concerning benefits. There is a potential future in which CRDP goes away and concurrently. It goes away. If that happens, I can fall back on that 80% multiplier from my high three as a military officer. So that was number one. Number two was I get an early bite at the apple for my VA rating. So when you go through IITAS, the integrated defense evaluation system, you're going to have your VA compensation and pension examinations earlier than really anybody else. I mean, BDD benefits delivery discharge, you do them on active duty, but you're not necessarily going to get a VA rating before you separate. So when you go through IITAS, you get a proposed VA rating while you're still in active duty. And you can dispute that rating. You can appeal it. And I know Joel's going to go into the how because, you know, we had to do that while you're still in active duty. And that's hugely advantageous if you believe that you deserve a higher rating or if a higher rating is part of your transition plan. So that was number two. The third upside is that it is more difficult to be recalled to active duty. So as a retiree, you remain a member of the Department of War. You can be recalled to active duty. And while formal or due to formal duty limiting codes, DLCs don't remain active after you've medically retired, an underlying unfitness determination, a medical conditions do stay in your personal record. So any recall and active duty, especially under your prior job, if you know, you had a especially strenuous or physical job like combat arms, would require a completely new medical qualification. It would be significantly harder to implement in practice. So it's a little more difficult for the Department of War to recall you to active duty. Number four, disability premium above a longevity retirement. So what I mean by that, and we'll just use me as an example, I'm an 80% medical retiree from a service and my longevity multiplier is only 60. Well, that leaves 20% in there. That's not considered divisible marital property. And I'm not an expert on that. I'm not going to go into it. But part of my retirement would be protected against any potential, you know, divorce in the future. God forbid. Number five, and this kind of gets into why more service members don't know about medical retirement. Service member can strongly influence the tempo of his or her transition. There are numerous appeal opportunities. And I know Joel's going to go into this that really, you know, accelerate or attenuate the pace of your separation or retirement within a window of about six to 12 months. The service member being more or less in charge of that process isn't amenable to how the service is replaced service members. You know, if your service doesn't know when your replacement's showing up because they don't know when you're leaving, that's a problem for them. So I was kind of passively discouraged from pursuing a medical retirement knowing that I was eligible for longevity retirement for this reason. Number six, you can get an immediate retired status regardless of years provided you've met some thresholds. Medical retirement gives you immediate retired paying benefits, even if you don't have 20 act of duty years. This matters especially for gardeners or soldiers. And for those broken service careers, you may not be able to hit sanctuary or early hit 20, but maybe past 15. And then number seven, you have a family immediate, tricare retiree eligibility chapter 61 retirees get tried here, retired coverage right away. Sure, if you have a view rating, the wheel, take care of you, but what about your dependents? This kind of solves for that problem. If you were not eligible for longevity retirement and you were not otherwise eligible for tricare retired benefits. So those are seven upsides to the medical retirement process that I encountered. I'm happy to pause there and expand on any. I think I want to go back to point number five there about the service member dictating the tempo. And I mean, with the institutional kind of hesitancy towards medical retirement and probably. probably just a lack of knowledge of how the system works from a lot of the military treatment facilities. Where does a service member start? And like what kind of conditions or injuries would send someone down kind of this rabbit hole to start exploring their options? - So I'm gonna answer, but I then wanna turn it over to Joel who has a flu chart that I think answers your question about the opportunities for service members to influence the tempo. So my two conditions that I was referred for were chronic PTSD and celiac disease, not a lot I could do about either. What I was shocked by once I had been referred was the fact that I had not been previously referred for the chronic PTSD. I had had a diagnosis, I'd been on continuous medication for insomnia, long past the standard for retention. I'd been honest and forthright about this during my periodic health examinations. This was all in my service treatment record. I was being treated at military treatment facilities. And yet I had not been referred. So like I said earlier, there is a tremendous institutional bias against funneling service members into this process. And I believe it's just a matter of interests. It's not in the service's interest to add uncertainty to the replacement process. And it's not in the service's interest to add a tremendous administrative burden to themselves when they could just kinda let it go. But I wanna turn it over to Joel who could be more specific about the opportunities that exist in the process. You know, appeal and sort of be an active agent in your own process. I'll start with the, I think starting the process is different for everyone. There are basically three types of DEDS. I just, I started calling it the DEDS so the disability evaluation system because it's dictated by the DOD in DOD instruction 1332.1A. And it's just basically it's okay, military departments take this generalized instruction and every department can suit it to their needs. So long as it affords service members the rights that are within that instruction. So that's why you see that all the processes look a little different 'cause people wonder why they all look the same, why can't I take advice from my friend in the Air Force and in the Army because they do have the authority to craft it to the way their system or their services set up. 'Cause not all services have the same medical core or the medical core individuals aren't in the same organizations and things. So it's just different. But the reason starting is so different is because first off, reservists, the injuries, depending on when they're sustained, need to have line of duty investigation is done in order to understand whether or not these conditions were incurred on duty. I mean, a qualified period of service. And again, that did the rabbit hole goes, right? It can be, they can be acquired, traveling to different types of, it could be trill. So IDT, ADT, that two weeks a year, if you're a certain type of reservist. And then it gets even more complicated because not all services have the same types of reservists. So this is where everyone gets confused. And on top of that, every service doesn't have the same medical qualifications when it comes to how you get into the DES. So the Air Force and Army have profiles, medical profiles. Whereas the Navy Marine Corps simply just has this thing called Limdo, limited duty. Or I should say you have light duty when you're a little sick, which is the equivalent to like a P2 in the Army. And then you have Limdo, which is equivalent to a P3, or I should say a T3, a temporary, level three profile in the Army. And then once you get referred, would you get passed your second period of Limdo in the Navy? That's like getting a permanent three in the Army. So this is why I find that when people reach out to people on other services, they get more confused because it's just these things have nothing to do with the IDF. In the process, so people get confused from the very get go. And that's where starting the process that can actually inhibit how you enter the process and how smooth it is. And not to leave anyone out, the Air Force, they have this thing called Initial Review and Lula, IRILO for short, it's basically a pre-Idez screening process so that if they can redesignate an Airman, they do that in return that person to duty. So, and that was just changed a few years ago, they used to have a pellet rights just like the IDAs, they did away with those because they're like, "Hey, we don't need to give you these. This is our internal Air Force process." It's not IDAs, even though to find out what it is, it's within the Air Force instructions that have to do with the IDAs. So that's confusing. Well, it's Airman, think it's part of the IDAs and it's not. So, once you're in the IDAs, that's when all everything you read and that is that DOD instruction, but of course in the Navy, it's called the Second-AV Manual in the Army, AR635-40 and in the Air Force is 36-3212. Those are the manuals, the IDAs manuals, or should say the DES manuals. And I know, this is why the lawyers are lawyers. Everyone has a different name for the dam system. I was like, "Why can't we all just call it the DES?" And someone says, "Well, why don't I do this?" It's the integrated subordinated evaluation system. No, it's not. It can be, under certain circumstances, you can choose the L-des, legacy, which is just the DOD, doing its thing, and getting you out. And there's some reasons to do that. And or the vast majority of people go to the IDAs, that's where the VA and the DOD work together to get to your VA ratings. And that's what most people know as the DES is the IDAs, but then you have this little note thing called the E-des, which is expedited DES, for usually death-eminent cases. It's to help get to close out cases and to make sure families get the benefits that their service member would have gotten, because if the service member dies on duty, if they're eligible for retirement, the family doesn't necessarily get retirement benefits that they would have otherwise gotten if that person would have been retired. So mostly they never hear of these things. So, but once you're in that process, the IDAs, LDAs, or E-des, you have the opportunity to, if there's a problem with your narrative summary, that's produced, which is the summary of your potentially unfitting conditions, you have an opportunity to rebut that, and to have it initiate something called an impartial medical review. To have an impartial doctor look over that review or that summary to say, basically, are these medical conclusions accurate? And some IMR doctors are more thorough than others. Some will look at other conditions, others will only say no, we're limited to these conditions. And then after that, you have an MEV report, which is that first step, so that it goes to be adjudicated. You can rebut that as well. And that has to do with, you know, that can be with line of duty issues, it can be with just any logistical issues. They have the wrong name on it for, which is surprising that happens a lot. I mean, so it can be huge issues or it can be small issues. And I think that's what people just don't understand on the very front end, that you can be more involved than you think. The common issue is hurry up and wait, as usual. And then as soon as you get the narrative summary, you typically have three days to decide whether you wanna do an impartial medical review. And some would say, well, what's the big deal? You sign up as a paper and they do it. Well, yeah, that's one way to do it. Another way is most attorneys will draft a memo. Again, if anyone's service, it's a year in, could be called a rebuttal, could be called a memo. But what I tell people is look, the best way to get lost is not know where you're going. So if you ask the, they tell them, hey, I want an IMR. You just tell them to doctor, look at this, save his kosher, see if it's okay. That doesn't help anybody. If someone says, hey Joel, here's a case file, tell me what's wrong. That is very inefficient. So imagine if this person is on salary, they're making the same case, check regardless, that doesn't really incentivize them to help you. 'Cause you're probably a thorn in their side. So writing a memo or a rebuttal to guide them into, this is the question I have. This is the issue I have with this condition or with that condition. You're giving them a road man. And you're helping that individual help you. And that's where I think for the, in the DES process, that's the mindset. That's the most, that's the healthiest for every service member. It's simply no matter how upset, angry, frustrated, you may be the way that it's set up is, it's you should always be there to help someone help you. Because you cannot help yourself, so to speak. You need, you will always be having someone else as a conduit to helping you get you what you want. So it's, you're helping them help you. And if you look at it any other way, gets very frustrating, very quick. Yeah, so I mean, it just brings to mind, like no one is gonna care about this more than you. So you need to lead the horse to water and then write the memo that says, "I want you to drink the water." And you need to take some ownership, which a lot of times in the military, like we do have that hurry up and wait mentality or that, well, I'm just waiting for someone else to do something, but it sounds like in this process, the more ownership you take of it and the more you kind of push on the rope and try to get the system to actually do what it's supposed to do, the better outcome you're gonna have. And is that kind of where a lawyer comes in to assist you with that? Yes, that's exactly where an attorney comes in. You got a couple of options. You can take the council that the service assigns you or you can obtain private council. I originally went with the council that the service assigned me. Again, it's just my experience, but as my dad would say, "You get what you pay for." I was in vigorous communication with a council out of West Point. She assured me that she had an understanding of my case and that I would need to contact her next decision point. When I went to contact her, at that next decision point, she had retired. That's when I tell a bit about my story. I reached out to Joel, which Joel, I think, you had less than a week to put a V.A. reconsideration review together to take me from 0% for celiac disease all the way up to 50%, which was a huge win, and immensely impactful for my family, for the rest of my life anyway. You get what you pay for, and I always try to find a professional for a complicated problem like this. You get what you pay for. Paul, I want to turn it back over to you for the five caveats. If I understand correctly, these are things that someone should be thinking about when they're comparing, "Do I take the classic longevity retirement if I'm eligible for it, or do I want to go down the road of a medical retirement?" What are those caveats that people should be thinking about? Again, these are just from my experience. I was eligible for that longevity retirement. I was receiving a recommendation from my HR that, "No, you should not pursue a medical retirement," but I did anyway. Here's some things to look out for. The number one would be presumption of fitness. There's what's called a presumption of fitness rule. If you request a longevity retirement, then your service presumes that you are fit for duty. What that means is, say September 1st, I request retirement for my service effective the following September, 12 months out. That's pretty standard. On October 1st, I get diagnosed with an unfitting condition. That may overcome the presumption of fitness. If I'm diagnosed with an unfitting condition on August 1st, and subsequently request a longevity retirement on September 1st, I may have some more issues and challenges overcoming that presumption of fitness. That's assuming that I want to be found unfit and I want to be medically retired from the service. I want to pause on that one, the presumption of fitness rule, and turn it over to Joel, and I'll go through the other four. The presumption of fitness is surprisingly enough when it comes to, at least for the Army, it is very well spelled out in the AR635-40 to an extent. Meaning it is in black and white, it is in one section, it is not spread out throughout the whole thing, like most subjects hardly in military regulations. But it's one of those things that members, as they get older, or I should say closer to that 20 years, have to realize that the purpose of the IDES is to compensate individuals whose military careers have been ended because of a disability. That is actually the exact wording in the presumption of fitness rule, because individuals will say, "Well, I have this condition, it's chronic, it's been a bit of a long time coming." It was like, "Exactly, it's been a long time coming, just like your 20 years has." How did this end your service? That is very difficult for most people to explain. That's why what Paul was saying is, generally, you're looking at catastrophic events, meaning a new issue happened, such as a car accident, something of that nature, or it could be an existing condition. Let's say you have a mental health condition, which says combat-related PTSD, but you were then a carject, and it exacerbated that. Well, that can also be used to overcome the presumption of fitness, but you also have to go into, "Okay, well, how are you performing before this and after this?" Meaning this cutoff, depending on which cutoff you're using, but the point is, is that generally what service members run into is, as we all know, well, they were letting me slide on this. I was putting the "S" one, or I was the "Opso," so I was telling everyone where to go, doing the logistics, calling this, calling that. I actually wasn't there doing it, so therefore, those standards, I was essentially being not held to certain standards. And of course, to show that means what? Getting people to say, "Hey, bored, I was letting this person slide," so you're basically admitting to being a poor officer. Yeah, that's very hard to come by, and that's why presumption of fitness is such a big deal for a lot of individuals, because unlike other seniorities, if you will, in the military, this is where suddenly you'd think that that good will would come to save you, in actuality, causing everyone to run away like, you know, roaches when the lights are turned off. They're not saying, "We're here to support you and we want to help you." They're saying, "You're asking me to admit to something and take an oath not to do," which is, you know, not take care of my soldiers, because I'm really not taking care of you, and I'm having you work, we are injured. It is a very strange, or I should say, it's just counterintuitive to the culture, but logically, it makes complete sense. You could see the example of a soldier or airman or marine who is like, "Look, I love being here. I want to keep doing this." And so for that person, they might be sweeping under the rug, "Look, I have this injury, but I'm going to minimize it or not get the care for it that I should be, because I want to stay here." And I want to make it, you know, to whatever number it is, 10 years, 12 years, 15, 20 years, and you could have it from both sides, right? Where the institution is saying, "Look, this is going to be a lot of paperwork. This is going to be, this is going to be really hard. This is going to take a long time. Let's just not do this." And then you might have the institutionalized service member who's saying, "Yes, exactly. I just want to stay here. I want to keep hanging out with my buddies in the unit, and I want to keep doing my job, right? Because that's why most of us signed up was to do the work and to serve our country." And so when we get injured, there's a huge, I mean, I talked to people all the time who won't even apply for their VA disability, you know, after 20, 26 years of service, and it's frustrating for me because every time they stand up, their knees crack, and I say, "I don't look, man, I'm not a doctor. I bet you could have a great conversation with a VA examiner about some of the issues you're having, and there's compensation out there available to you." And they can't give you, I mean, sometimes there are surgeries, they can give you new knees, but they can't take away your pain, but they can at least give you some compensation for the injuries and disabilities you sustained while you're on active duty. I can see how, both from the institutional perspective and the service members perspective, this can be a heavy lift where you have service members who aren't motivated to go through the medical retirement process. Either A, they don't know about it, B, they don't understand it, or C, they just, they don't want to, quote-unquote, let their buddies down, right? There's a huge emotional and psychological stigma, right, about putting up your hand and saying, "Hey, boss, like, I'm in pain or I'm hurting, and I need help." We're just not taught to do that from day one. Just a quick note from one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. Hey Spencer, I've heard about this free MX Platinum Card for Military Service Members. Where can I go to learn more about this? Great question Jamie. I've got the ultimate military credit cards course at militarymoneymanual.com/umc3. It's a 100% free email base course, and I explain exactly how to verify your eligibility for credit card annual fee waivers with the Military Lending Act, or MLA, and the Service Members Civil Relief Act, or SCRA. The ultimate military credit cards course is a beginner's guide to travel hacking and opening up your first annual fee waiver credit card while you or your spouse serves in the US military. There's no spam, no fluff, and the only emails you'll get from me are related to military credit cards. You can unsubscribe at any time, and there's zero cost to you to sign up. You can sign up right now for free at militarymoneymanual.com/umc3. Again, militarymoneymanual.com/uniformmiccharley3. And now back to the show. The second thing to look out for really took me by surprise was how quickly this process happens. The service wants this to be done in 180 days. It's actually in the briefing that you give you. Subtunuts, including my VA Reconciteration review that took about 51 days, I was at nine months. HR told me it was going to take 12 months, and I'd really never know when I would get out. You're not really in charge of the timeline, but you can influence it greatly. And the so lot of that is you're not going to have the time that you ordinarily would during a BDD claim benefits delivery discharge while you're still in activity to methodically work with a veteran service officer to populate your VA form 21-526 easy. And that's the form where you list all the disabilities that you want the VA to examine you for and consider. So I think I had maybe a week or two to put that thing together. And that presupposed all the research and all the consolidation of medical records and all the recollection of the conditions that we just sort of cope with through in my case decades of service to put that into the 526 easy. And even then I missed a couple. Didn't end up mattering because I came in at 100% permanent and total and once that's in, don't touch it. But there are some things in my service treatment record that didn't make it onto that form because I just didn't have the time to work with anybody else. It's a very, it's a lonely process, you know, for the reasons you both describe. Number three is, you get what you pay for. Don't cheap out on this process. If you're builder and you can't find a subject matter expert at your poster installation, do a Google search, find a reputable counsel, get a free console and retain him or her. It's going to pay off. Number four, a mental health diagnosis, may trigger a no weapons profile. So again, kind of go into the stigma of being found unfit and raising your hand and saying, hey, I'm broken. This is a big one because if you're in a unit where carrying weapons is a usual thing, that's certainly going to be noticed. And no, no one's going to show up and, you know, take your privately owned weapons away. You're not going to automatically lose a security clearance or or anything like that. But in some cases, a mental health diagnosis may trigger what's, you know, known as a no weapons profile. Yeah, I think we covered the other caveat in the course of the conversation. I guess, I mean, I have so many questions after all of this. And I guess one of the things I'll throw out too with the mental health diagnosis is on the Air Force side, right? Like as pilots, that's something that we're always always aware of. And if you do want to fly on the outside of the civilian world or continue to fly in the military, right? There's this big stigma around around the mental health. And it's we've got to figure out some way to the current way the system is set up as soon as that's on your record, you're you're basically toast. And that is terrible, right? Because people can't seek the treatment and help they need. And they can't come out the other side and say, Hey, like that was a dark period of my life. I never want to go through that again. But I'm good now. And that's just, you know, the way that our system is set up, anyone in the aviation community is going to say, thanks, but no, thanks. We don't want to talk to you. Again, things to consider, things to think about before you start this process. But I don't want that, I say that. I say that. And I'm going to turn outside. I don't want that to deter anybody from doing this process if they need to. But just to be frank, on the aviation side, it could be a career killer. But it might be what you need, what your family needs in order to, you know, in order for you to keep putting food on the table and to keep a roof over their heads. So I think I'll go next with, why don't more people know about this? It's a matter of systems thinking. So it is in the interest of the Department of War to retain service members. It is not in their interest to maximize their retirement multiplier. And it is not in the Department of War's interests to maximize service members of VA reading from ultimately reasons, not limited to a potential increase to awareness of the breadth of VA programs for veterans might increase service members interests in retiring and not staying in. Secondly, you know, who who briefs us on our career, HR? And we all have an HR. We all have a different acronym and, you know, an A1 and S1 and G1, you know, whatever it is in your service, the amount of paperwork that a medical retirement is going to create for them. It's ridiculous. And I'll go with PTSD. I'm kind of talking about the GY generation here. There is a ton of undiagnosed PTSD and generalizing anxiety disorder out there in the force, you know, from decades of war. And all those, you know, that my generation all refer to it. We're also eligible for a longevity retirement. So the easy answer for HR is, hey, you got your 20. Don't you want to know exactly when you're going to get out? So you can schedule your party and you can schedule your PCS move and you can tell your next employer when you're going to start, just go with the longevity retirement. And in my case, that would have been 100% the wrong answer. There were multiple upsides to pursuing a medical retirement given my diagnoses and my medical conditions. There was a minor cost associated with retaining a private council. I have zero regrets. I think what you said, like I don't think there's anything too nefarious happening here. It's just systems respond to incentives and people respond to incentives. And a few, I have a program that requires a massive amount of paperwork and, you know, it doesn't kind of follow the normal process that people are naturally going to steer away from it. Joel, I was wondering if you could kind of take us through the, we've touched on a few time. This I does process. Most of my listeners will never heard of this. We did have an episode where we talked about benefits delivery on discharge for the VA. But let's talk about this, this I does process. Perhaps you can start off with defining it and then kind of taking us through how it works both from the, the DOD and the VA side. Before you get into the I does process, you have to be referred into it. Okay. And you can only be referred into it. And it's a term of art, so to speak, is that by a medical provider, there is no such thing as a service referral. Some people think there is because they don't see how the sausage is made. It's not. There is always a provider behind the referral. As I was saying earlier, the Air Force has IRILO that's their pre screen to retain members to redesign them and we're trying to do duty based on their medical outlook. I won't go into that process. It's quite involved. But ironically, in that process, they do produce documents that they will use in the items. If you go to the items, the Army, they have the profiling system, just like the Air Force, but the Army, simply you need to have a P3 or a P4 in order to be referred into the I does process, not a T3, but a P3, so I'm like Papa 3, so permanent. But even then, just because you have a permanent 3 doesn't mean you're automatically referred, they need to do a second signature, a second doctor needs to basically concur that your referring physician, which is generally your PCM and who's referring you, even though you may have a specialist helping you, like the diabetes of intercronologist, they work with your PCM, your PCM puts in that P3, and then there's a patient admin officer that then will concur and lo and behold, that's when you can go against the I does. Now, for the Navy Marine Corps, it's a little different, it's a little more laissez-faire, basically you have two periods of limb due, which usually six months each, and you get into the ideas. Again, I'm oversimplifying because those processes are extremely complex, but just know that it's not taking lightly to get into the ideas, because as Paul said, there's a lot of paperwork and a lot of staffing hours that go into this process. Real quick testimony on that, and I want to back drill up, so like I said, I'm seen in a military treatment facility biomedical doctor, initially when I brought my two referred diagnoses, PTSD and CLAC disease to that doctor, that doctor told me that my conditions did not meet the standard for referral into DTS. I had to go back to my services army regulation for suitability and quote him how the diagnosis connected to being found unfit, and then after a matter of weeks I was referred. So there was pushback even at the medical treatment facility level for understandable reasons. You have that process, which can be daunting for some, less daunting for others depending on what conditions you have, and then when you refer into the process, you are detailed a pebbleau, a PEB liaison officer, and PEB stands for physical evaluation board. So physical evaluation board liaison officer, pebbleau, and that person, the out of everyone else says it, but in the record states, they're like the admin belly button that you press for everything. So they run the show administratively, and they introduce you literally and figuratively to your MSC, your military services coordinator, and most people will know that person is like a VSL, they're part and parcel the same, one's just working in the ideas. So that's why that person's there, and they help you with, as Paul is saying, the 526-Z, so everyone fills that out. They don't have a special one for ideas, but they also have you fill out an SHA, a separation health assessment, part alpha, that is where it's kind of the worksheet, right, to then get all the information to put on to the 526-Z, and a VA21-0819, that is the form that says, "Hey, VA, this is an ideas case." Otherwise, it just looks like a 526-Z that someone submitted. But that's not special, basically, looks almost just like the 526-Z with only one, with it's a lot shorter, and it simply just has the unfitting conditions. So if you're a soldier, and you have three P3s that have been then, it's say, "Hey, you might be unfit, so they don't need retention standards." And that's AR40, a 40-501 retention standards. They'll be listed on that, so that's the MSC does. This is where it gets to be different. That's probably the only thing that's really the same amongst all the systems, or it's clearly the same. Because after that, like I said, in the Air Force, if you've got to the IRILO, which 99% people have, you will, that there's a narrative summary drafted. Well, they'll just keep using that. So it's already done before you're even in the IDIS. But in the Army, a medical evaluation board doctor, so not your PCM or your treating physician, but a medical board doctor who's hired just to do medical boards will write the narrative summary. And in the Navy Marine Corps, when I was active duty, it was camp was you that we had an enemy group, doctor, but that was unheard of anywhere else and still not always the same in the Navy. Sometimes they have them so they don't. Some, they're good and they're bad about that because some would say, "Well, why not have the person treating this person to write this?" And others would say, "Well, I'd like another doctor would say, 'How many of that person write?' How good could they be at if they never do it?" That's all right. They're the pluses and minuses. But the army is the one that's the best saying, "Look, we have MEB doctors so you know what you're getting." But then after you're in the MEB process, I should say, "During that, that's all going on. Your command is contacted by the pebble load to say, 'We need a functional state,' meaning that's the medical side. Now the functional side. How does this treatment, these conditions, these symptoms? How does it affect this person's ability to complete the duties of their office grade, rank, or rating?" And that's just from the DOD instruction. The rating is, you know, for the Navy, but MLS for everyone else or designation for Navy officers. But the point is, at that point before they create the MEB report, that means they marry those two things. It's functional and medical because you can't have that equation without both because nobody generally cares if you have a diagnosis and it doesn't affect you doing your job. Generally speaking, there's a few gangs like bipolar and a couple of other things that are per se and sitting, but very cute. And just like if you have a problem doing your job, but you have no medical diagnoses, they call that malingering. You have to have both. And once that's done, of course, I said, "You have the IMR, you can do an MEB rebuttal, if you have issues with it." But once the medical board report is done and finalized, and you sign off on it, you can set to that, your service is P-E-B, a physical evaluation board, and the informal board does a record review and adjudicates the case. But of course, all during this whole period, the VA exams, you're going through them, you're the CMP exams, all of that's being compiled. And of course, the medical board does, the medical evaluation board does review that data before they finalize their report, but they're not relying on the VA for their analysis because what service members need to understand is that when you go into those CMP exams, the doctor's will have nothing to do with your records. I mean, they've already reviewed them, or they say they have. They haven't always done so. But if you think you can just say, "Oh, Doc, you haven't seen this newest inpatient mental health treatment I just got out of." Here's the document, they'll say, "I don't want them. Why are you giving those to me?" And that's kind of jarring to most people. They just don't expect it, but very rarely, unless the VA uncover something that can conflict with your case, does the VA CMP exams? And they produce these things of the disability benefits questionnaires, those DBQs they fill out during these exams, just checklists and whatnot. Very rarely do those upend in IDES case, but sometimes individuals will say things or do things during those exams that the NEV doctor does want to mention. That sometimes people are for better or worse line during those exams. And the doctors do note it. There's rumors that they watch you as soon as you walk into the building. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But there's little phrases you look out for in those write-ups. If you're bending over to do your forefliction for your lumbar spine, and it says, "forefliction limited by effort." That means you're basically not trying it, right? Your purpose is trying to get things like this or just like in the mental health arena where they say, "conversion disorder," or "functional neurological disorder." That just simply means you're feeling things that don't exist. There's no ideology for this. You're just making them up. And some say, "Well, I'm not making them up." Well, but that's the point. Is you need to know that these things are in your record. That's why reviewing all these things, and they do give them to you, your pebbled will. You must review them, because once you get to that iPad stage and they're adjudicated, that will give you insight into why you're being found unfit or you're being found fit, or maybe they're finding something not in the light of duty, because the iPad can do that. They can say, "Yeah, fit unfit, but we don't agree with this light of duty investigation, and we think it's total bunk." And they do the Army HRC? So undo that, take out the books, it is not a light of duty. But they don't mind you go the other way around. They do not grant light of duty. It only goes one way, a bad one. Yeah. They're not always does, but they have the power to do that. And then when you're done with that process, you can appeal that process, and you can file an iPad appeal. That's, they call them iPad reconsiterations and how Navy Recorp, everywhere else, because of the iPad appeals, well, the Army does, the Air Force. It's actually closely different, but it's not the same as iPad appeal. The Air Force is a little special in this case, because the CEO of the hospital, generally the convenient authority for the MEB, that person would almost, if you will, function file an iPad appeal, and what they're saying is something was wrong medically with this that they didn't catch, or something in the adjudication was wrong, but it's rare to see that, the Air Force. So that's a little different. But after that, you can even have a formal board hearing, and that's a genoaable hearing. So it's from scratch. They've reviewed everything from scratch. Like the iPad adjudication didn't even happen. They can rely on that, but they don't have to. And then post F-Head appeal, so a Sith even, another appeal, that is a appeal that's uniform throughout the services, and it's not the same, meaning you do not, it's not a denovo review, meaning for scratch. You like the F-Head appeal, so you go to the iPad, you don't like it. You can say, "I want an F." Okay, great. No one can say no. Unless it's, if you're a, but however, for some, Sith, at the iPad, they don't have to grant the F-Head. Very rare to ever do that. They pretty much like it, great. But to do a post F-Head appeal, you cannot litigate or relitigate the facts in a case, meaning, "Hey, I just disagree with you, put their interpretation of the facts." No. It's usually for fraud, misappetition of law. It can be for a, if the decision is, other say, arbitrary and capricious, meaning they didn't apply the rules fairly. Right. The same for instance, they said, "Well, it's not clear and convincing of it." Well, that's not the standard. It's preponderance of the evidence. So that would be a misapplication of law. But you see, it's a legal appeal. It's not a factual appeal, except for new medical evidence. They all say a little differently, except for the English core, but basically, you have, and it's not just any medical evidence, it's material. So let's say you're on the board, you have, let's just say, "I don't chrono disease, you take humerus, that means you're immunosuppressed." And that's why you can deploy, you may not re-designate you, so therefore you're unfit. Well, let's say for some reason they find that you actually get just a good result from some of you that doesn't suppress your immunosuppressure immune system. Well, now, the whole reason you're on the board is gone. That is material new evidence. It basically turns the whole case on its head. I'm trying to make this simple, but it's an inordinately complicated, and I understand that. Yeah. It took me nine minutes to run through this as fast as like, "I wish I could make it simpler." Yeah. Well, I think the Army handout on this is like 70 or 80 pages. Yeah, I think that just goes to show the complexity of the matter and why. It can, like, for most people, they're only going to go through this process once, hopefully. And so why not? Fine. It's the same advice I give to people who file their taxes, right? I'm like, "Hey, you file your taxes once a year. If you hire a CPA, they might have seen a thousand tax returns in the last year." And just having that additional experience, that additional confidence in what they're doing, including all the training, right, and all the education that's gone into how they perform their tax services, why wouldn't you, for a nominal fee, why wouldn't you hire this person just to take a second look at what you've been doing in H&R Block? And for most military service members, taxes aren't that complex. But from what we've been talking about in this podcast episode so far, I would not want to go through this process without having very good counsel. You actually have a really good, I just pulled it up on your website, the flow chart that Paul was referring to earlier. There was, yeah, he's got to pull it up there on the video. But I wanted to just define three acronyms that we've been using quite a bit. The Pebbleau, the iPad and the FPEB. Can you just run through those three acronyms real quick for the listener? So the Pebbleau is the P-E-B or physical evaluation board liaison officer. That person, they are the admin hub for the service member and for the Air Force, they have branched through this. Army, the Pebbleau has the most power. They can actually grant and take away leave or deny leave. The Air Force is not as much power, but they do have their word is taken very, very, with a lot of gravity. It's just you want to play an asset with those individuals and in the Navy Marine Corps, they are that admin hub, but they have nothing to do with leave, granting or denial, nothing like that. They truly are a conduit. They're very efficient. I would say they're more so than any other service, but it's because they're so laser-focused. That's the difference in the pebbles. But Ikeb is the informer. physical evaluation board. That is the first opportunity that someone's case is going to be adjudicated, either fit or unfit. And what Pete would surface members have to remember is that, well, the way I oversimplified is this. The DOD does one thing and one thing only. You are fit or unfit. That's it. Everything is ancillary. They do combat-related. They, I mean, they do. It's not the same thing as a CRC board. It's very different. It's under a different law. So it's not not set in as however from fit or unfit. That's when they write you out all the nuances of the different findings. But in the ideas, they don't rate anybody until you're on the TDRL. So in the first instance, they don't rate you if you're unfit. Once your VA results come back, if it's for your knee, your left knee, they'll say, okay, left knee. If it's one rating, they just cut and paste that onto your findings, or there's 336, the Air Force, or your 199 in the Army. And that's it. So if you think they're doing more, they're not. They're, they're focused on the functional aspect. And the FPEB, the formal physical evaluation board, they are simply the appellate body for the IPEB. And what you have to remember is that the FPEBs are generally made up from the same pool of officers who are who make up the IPEB. Right. Not the not your same board. Yeah. But the same pool. So they, you can't have the same members. You can object to that. If they're, if you have a member who's the same on both boards, some people want it, some don't. Because sometimes you have a kidney issue and you have one nephrologist at the board. You may want that nephrologist on your, on your formal board for whatever reason. But it's not a separate body and there is no regulation that states it has to be. Just a quick note from one of our sponsors and then we'll be right back to the show. It's no secret Spencer and I are both huge fans of the Thrift Saving Plan, the militaries version of the 401k retirement plan. We've both been investing in the TSP for over 14 years and are thrilled to announce we've consolidated all the information you need to know into a new course called the Confident TSP Investing course. That's right. The course is a comprehensive guide to navigating the TSP, breaking it down to easy, light sized chunks that lay out the basics of the Thrift Saving Plan, the funds available and the investing strategies so you can build wealth while you serve. We both know what it's like to be a beginner and to be overwhelmed with all the information that's out there about investing in the TSP. Head over to militarymoneymanual.com/tSP, TangoCirapapa to find our simple breakdown of all you need to know. You get lifetime access and we'll have a growing library of content. And one of my favorite parts about the course is that for every course we sell, we're going to be donating one to an E4 or below. Yeah, I love that feature of the course Jamie. So if you're an officer and NCO, a senior NCO out there and you purchase a course, first of all, thank you. And also know that you're helping a fellow service member, a sailor, a soldier, a marine, an airman, a guardian, a coast guardsman, E4 or below, take one step closer to their financial success. The links in the show notes or head over to militarymoneymanual.com/tSP where you can sign up for the confident TSP investing course. Now back to the show. Let's talk about VA disability ratings. We mentioned Paul in the beginning, 100% permanent in total. And this is something that we talked about on the VA disability episode I did with Doug Nordman. But this is a very common misconception, not just among civilians, but also amongst activity, guard reserve veterans. 100% doesn't mean you are bedridden. It doesn't mean that you don't have the use of all four limbs. It's, you know, you could be 100% permanent total and with enough training, go run a marathon. Why, I guess I won't get into why there's this misconception. But what, you know, in your experience going through this process, what would you want to tell another veteran about applying, first of all, about applying for a VA disability rating? And then second of all, if you get rated 100%, what does it actually mean functionally? I'll give my testimonial and it's a conversation that I've been having a lot lately as, you know, former colleagues refer me to their friends and so on and so forth is in the service it's mission first and people always. And that's a fancy way of saying people second, just to be very, very realistic about it. As you approach the end of your career, if you know that is coming, your mission is not necessarily to position yourself for continued service to our great country. That service is coming to a close. Your mission, my mission as a family man was to ensure that my family would be in the most advantageous position possible with regard to educational benefits with regard to health care with regard to, you know, potential future in which I wasn't there due to premature death or worsening of my referred conditions. You got to give yourself permission for that to be okay. Only you were going to do that. We have, you know, the greatest armed forces that, you know, have ever existed in the history of man, you know, is our privilege to serve alongside the greatest Americans. So part of that is believing in the mission and putting the mission first. It is going to be, it's going to create immense cognitive distress when you flip that switch. And if you don't flip that switch and if you don't put your family first, if you are a person with a family, you know, which most of us in the service are whatever that family looks like, they and you are going to pay for it for the rest of your natural life. I don't know how else to put it. I'll just pause there. Yeah. No. Well, so I mean, getting the service member, right, to recognize that, no, like you've, you've done your duty, you performed your service, you and hopefully that's all been done honorably. And now to me, I always, I always come back to look like when you joined the service, you had to go through maps. The government wanted to know what product they were getting. And they recorded it. When you leave the service, you go to your mandatory service medical exam, you are not required to go to a VA compensation and pension exam. And I would love to see the law change and say, look, we, the government wanted to know what you were when you came in, you have the right when you leave the service, not just the right, but the obligation to know what happened to you while you're on active duty. And for so many service members, you know, for myself and the Air Force, you know, my, my medical record was 500 pages thick. And that's a pretty small one, right, compared to, compared to some people out there. And, and fact, the other day, I dropped it into one of the AI LLMs and said, Hey, can you just search through here again? And, you know, here's my VA claim that I filed. Did I miss anything? And sure enough, it went through there. And it said, not only did I miss something, but when I went to my VA compensation pension exam, the examiner said, Oh, there was this condition that that that he mentioned. And I completely forgot about it, but he put it in the letter that I got from the VA that and it said, Hey, it was noted that the examiner said, you might be eligible to apply for this condition. So you should look into it. That was two or three years ago. And I completely forgot about it. I just went back the other day and filed a filed an update. And so I'm going through the the rating process for that again now. But I think for these new these LLM's these chapots are actually it's going to make the process even simpler for maybe not simpler, but at least easier for military service members to to have a neutral third party review their record and say, Look, based on the current schedule of of VA disability ratings and based on your medical record, there's probably some things in here that you should go talk to a VSL about 100% Spencer, the younger service members, you know, who I talk to, they're they're all using LLM's and I'll just say, you know, I know Chad G PT is an open AI product. They'll upload their CMP exams, the disability benefit questionnaires, the VA rating decision and ask to identify gaps just like you did. And to errors is human. Now what AI won't know is your particular services, proclivities and preferences. Would AI won't know is for example, that you can elect to request a an FPEB and later cancel that FPEB, which can impact your timeline. And that's where, you know, private council and in my case was was indispensable. AI is a great tool. It's not an advocate and it's not a, you know, professionally trained counselor. It's that's what I'd say. Trust but verified. I would say in this case, don't even trust, especially with some of the errors I've seen. I pride myself on pulling that curtain for a lot of people because that's just what I'm used to doing for educating clients. But when it comes to this subject, it's a structural issue that unless you work in the system, people don't know about it, but I do just because this is why I want people quit. I mean private council who are hired by the military's departments to try to do this. Is there generally is not a schedule by which the different PEPs publish their rules. They have the manuals that I've noted that I have on my website as well and they're all over you and Google them and find them anywhere. It's not a problem. It takes two seconds. But every board has a president and they release these menos. And I don't think they are all our called menos. And they are not simply lighthearted little blurbs about what preferences are and just timelines, it'll be we have changed this process that will massively change your case, but they won't tell Council, they won't tell private Council, they will tell even government Council. They may tell the supervisory Council at the different services, but that doesn't always get pushed down to the individual Council who are detailed to service members. So I think what people have to understand is these are not always published publicly. For instance, I recently, I think it was maybe last year, was told during an Air Force case that they had changed the order by which you applied to it. It's called the SAF VC, you know, say to the Air Force, personal Council, when that appeal was going to happen for certain types of cases, and they hadn't told anybody, and they said, "Oh, by the way, you're going to argue this issue, I'm going to say, "Well, you're going to have to do your appeal now." Why am I saying, "Why is that?" "Oh, well, they just released this a few days ago." To who? They didn't give me an answer, they just released it. I don't know, to avoid, I guess, maybe not avoid, but avoid. And it was fine, but it was literally taking up PILD, it would draft after a formal hearing, if you needed it, we had to do it before the formal hearing. So it would be very fun on because you're just having the record and proceedings and evidence. So it's very different. But the point is, is that they don't, they don't punish Council for not knowing because they don't tell anybody. But if your strategy is based on a certain cadence or a certain event happening in a certain order, they do have the power to simply just tell you, we've changed the rules. And so long as it's not contravening the DOD instruction, they can do that. And that's something that AI, LLMs, they just won't know because unless someone puts it on the internet and then has a commentary or a blog about it, AI won't know what to do with it. And it won't know because there's no regulation, it says they can just publish their own rules. Like, there's no ringing just sent. So that's why it's so difficult to trust or sometimes verify what AI saying because the ideas is this weird half-gray process. Hey Spencer, if I can, I want to go back. I know I covered that, that fifth caveat in the course of the conversation. Now I'm remembering, you know, what it was, it was be aware of, you know, all the misinformation that's out there about this process. And the reason why I didn't cover that when we were going through the five is that we actually covered it before we started taping. So I can, out of the way. And I'm just going to give you like one rumor that's out there that is clustering time and money, which is if you are 100% P&T from the VA, then your retirement check is tax-free. That is not true. There is no way, no how. And yet, this allegation pops up periodically in Facebook groups in, you know, forums because maybe we want it to be true. That's just not true. And AI is trained mostly on Reddit. I saw some, you know, a graphic that it's mostly calling Reddit conversations. So garbage in, garbage out. And I don't want to bleed too much into a conversation about VA claims. I listened to your episode with Doug Norman. I read his book. It was outstanding. It definitely influenced my journey. But these separate service processes are so complex and so dynamic. And, you know, in some cases straight up Mercurial that you got to have wise counsel. It's not your pebble. And it's probably not your assigned counsel. We'll just keep hammering on that. I mean, this, like I said, this is not something anybody's going to go through more than once in life. So I, if I was going through this process, which thankfully I didn't have to, I just, I just separated and went through the VA disability process. On that note, with pebble, with coast of pebbles, you'll hear a lot of people bone pebbles, meaning that they don't reach out enough. They're good. They're bad. It's like any profession, right? You have high flyers, if you people above a barrel of this, what is? But the worst thing someone can do with a pebble is say, well, what would you do in my situation? Because that person, that's first off, I say worst. I don't mean because the pebble isn't known. What I'm saying is that's not their job. And they are not allowed to tell you. They're not allowed to give you counsel. So when service members do that, they're putting the pebble in a very tough position because usually they are sympathetic. And we'll feel bad. Bad. Yeah. Maybe they didn't get out through disability. And they're just like this sucks that this happened to this person and they're so injured. And I want to help them. But if they answer that question, they can unknowingly, right? As they say, the hell is paid, the road to hell is paid with good intentions. They can easily relieve someone down that path without knowing it. But also, again, people will say, I've heard lots of people say, well, why does it matter there? Just telling them the deadline or a time frame that that's their job. And I'll say, yes, but you don't think that filing something, I'm filing for something at a certain point can affect your legal rights. You are wrong because I have cases every year where someone has told somebody, you have a great option here, except move on. And when my client comes back and tells me about what they did, I usually will say, okay, did you consider X, Y or Z? We talked about all this. Why did you do this? And it's, well, they said, I was in a great position. I said, but why did they say that? What did they base that on? And it was just enthusiasm for the member, you know, being done with their ideas, process, that stress, the worry. I'm like, it wasn't based on was it good for you? It was based on the, I would say, the good for you, like good for you being done, but no, it's good for you. And it can in every year, there's there's usually someone who accepts something they shouldn't have because they were caught up in getting everything done with and wrapped up in not realizing that there was more to do or there was a benefit in waiting. And there's lots of, let's just say nuances to different processes within the different services. So they're all different. That can affect when you do these things. So if you think that just signing a piece of paper, even though you've maxed everything out is just signing a piece of paper, you're wrong. Because again, certain services have slowly implemented rules that don't exist. I mean, for instance, members have to follow up on what they submit. That is not true. That's why you have a pebble. Because there's no rule that, well, the member has no one else to reach out to. So they use the pebbles to make sure that things are submitted on time. But if something that is submitted, a lot of times certain people will say, well, why didn't you follow up? And my answer to that is show me where it says they have to do that. And if they do follow up, show me who has to follow, who has to say yes or no, they didn't get this or they got this. So that, but they don't have that rule. So that's why they don't have a rule yet to follow up because there's no one to say yes or no. And it gets innorantly complex. And this is why asking your pebble for advice is it's bad for them. It could easily turn to be into situations bad for you. And you want to make sure that whether it's government or private council, that you just make sure that you're taking everything to consideration, especially at the end of the process. Because you're right, you're at the end of that long, usually arduous row. And you want to make sure it ends well. In addition, Joel, I had a fantastic pebble professional experience, definitely kept me on track. What's the pebble's job? The pebble's job is to get you done. That's what the service cares about. It's right in the, it's actually 80 slides, Joel. Earlier you said it was a 80 slide briefing that they give to families. Their goal is to complete this process in six months. Those six months account for zero appeals. None. That's soup to nuts. So the pebble's job is to get you done and to move on. They got a caseload like any other officer. It's not to ensure the best possible outcome. And like Joel said, it might be in your interest to prolong this process. Okay. There is so much in here. And I feel like we could keep going on this topic. I'm sure you've got some YouTube videos for people who need to learn more about this. The two topics I want to cover before we wrap up and feel free guys to throw out other topics that you want to cover before we wrap up here is financial consequences, medical retirement, longevity retirement, VA compensation, how that all interacts, considerations for family. And then, so that's the first topic, the money. And then number two is what you want to warn others about and what you want to leave. If a listener is listening to this and they're listening to this episode for a specific reason, right? Because they're considering I might be eligible for a medical board or maybe they've only served a year or two, but they've been in the in the suck out in Syria and Iraq or maybe they've served 25 years. And it's all just kind of actually and they're thinking, "Hey, it's about time I threw in the towel." Topic number two would be, "What do you want to warn that specific listener about and what do you want to leave them with for next action step?" So number one, let's talk about the money, financial consequences. So financial consequences, it does matter what component you're in. So I regularly preaches that I believe, well, I know that the rules are a little wonky when it comes to reservists for medical retirement because usually, reservists get the short end of the stick for everything. That's just how the reserves do it. But for the medical retirement, it is the opposite. I believe someone was not understanding the way reservist time is calculated because when a reservist is medically retired, let's say that person is at 05 with 22 years in, when they're retired, let's say 70%, well, the high three pay that they use for that retiree at that moment is the current high three. So that makes sense. However, the years of service, it is not the reservist calculation of points divided by 360 equals the number of the years of service. No, it is simply good years. So that does make a difference. And what people fail to appreciate is I've had several of these clients where when you have a senior officer who has a high disability percentage, that person can easily, through their disability retirement, make more than if they were to simply throw in the towel and say, you know what, wave the board, I'm retirement eligible, and I'm going to go for my longevity retirement because at that point, that person's longevity retirement, as we all know, it's based on their longevity points calculation, which is points divided by 360 equals the years of service. So there are massive financial consequences for individuals who are senior officers, just at certain pay levels and certain disability percentages when they're retired and they're reservists, they can actually do better through medical retirement and obdiate the need to ever submit for longevity retirement because for the reserves, you have to submit for your to receive your CRDP. So some of my clients will never have to exercise that option, even though they have their 20-year letter, but the math says they would be insane to do so. And that's something that does not exist for the active duty, CRDP, courtesy, unless they are going through CRSC or some of the program, is always infinitely more lucrative than a medical retirement. So it's the opposite for some reserve members. And doing those calculations is usually not, well, there is no one to do them. No one at DFAS will do them for you. This is where you just, I mean, for me, I do them for my clients because I have a finance background as well. So that's why I do CRSC calculations and things like that. But most individuals who have the wherewithal to understand the legal side don't have to wherewithal to understand the financial side. And that is a, I'd say the biggest takeaway when it comes to the money piece, that is for especially for an active duty individual, it is I would be hard pressed to ever find a situation where your concurrent receipt scenario does not vastly outweigh your medical retirement scenario, whereas reservists that is not the case. So Joel, for the listener who might be thinking about this or really, you know, like when I tell people like, hey, everybody leaves the military, it's some way shape or form. So when, you know, people are talking about documenting your injuries and documenting your medical care, I mean, that's just, that should just be basic hygiene stuff. That should be it for everybody. But what would you warn someone who's going through this process or is thinking about starting this process? I would say that the number one of focus would be don't let the process just simply plate out. Because there's too many interested parties, so speak not to be conspiracy theorist, that they're not looking out for your best interests because they have a process to complete. They have that 180 day timeline to meet. And if yours is a case that's an outlier, they'll do everything they can to shorten it because it will be briefed to eventually individuals at the Pentagon, not necessarily your name and everything like that, but you will start skewing the numbers in the wrong way. And so just as an example of one interest that will start to negatively impact or could negatively impact your case. So when you're an active participant, you're reviewing things and it could be things that are just deathly boring to you. Maybe not to me, because that's my profession, but for most people, they just they're mind numbing. But if you're not engaged, you can quickly find yourself with a mounting list of issues to address and not enough mechanism by wish to address them. And you basically get behind the eight ball and you are forced to take whatever you can, whatever they hand to you because sadly enough, if you're a junior member, and you if you do not have the resources to hire a private council, the government council, especially when it comes to the army and the Navy Marine Corps, that those programs have been gutted for various reasons and issues of council. So it's very hard to get an attorney to analyze your case within seven or 10 days of you being of your hearing happening for your F pen. And it's very difficult even to get into contact with iPad council and iPad council aren't individually assigned. So I was increasingly frustrated when I was in the government because I knew what these cases needed. And when I had five to six days to help somebody, that was just, I mean gut wrenching when I knew that they could have been taken care of easily. If someone would have talked to them six months ago at the iPad, well, but no one did. And at that point when I said, I need you to go see a neurologist and they said it takes 30 days to get into that person. Well, guess what? Seeking new evidence is not a reason for delay. In any case, in any forum, so guess what? You're well, you're up to creek without a paddle. And that is, I would say the biggest worry that I have for people who either won't or can't be proactive in the process because you don't get a second bite of the apple. And to come back to the board of correction for naval records or the Air Force or Army Board of military records is it takes two to three years of processing. And it costs a lot of money and it takes a lot of work to undo these issues. So being an active participant in your case is I would say the number one thing you can do to help yourself. And of course, there's a laundry list of others. But that is the, I would say the most available thing people can do because no matter how much money you have, be able to lot or a little. No one is going to say you cannot review your records and you cannot be a person in your case. So it's a strategy that's available to everyone. Paul, anything that on the financial consequences or the what you want to warn others about what you would say to a fellow service member if they're thinking about starting this process. One thing I didn't mention was the cost of health care. So I didn't find this out until I was retired under chapter 61 is that my try care premium for my family, which you know right now I've got three teenagers in a spouse in 10 years. I'm just going to have a spouse. My annual premium is frozen for life. And I plan on living a really long time. I got a World War II vet grandfather. He's turning 100 this year. He was in the Army Air Corps, which I know my Air Force Brothers know love it when I bring that up, you know, the Army Air Corps. And I'm going to be paying less than $700 a year for the rest of my life for health care. And that wouldn't be the case if I was a longevity retiree. So that's a big one. And we don't know how big that one's going to be number two. For me, anyway, there was no windfall associated with being a medical retiree. And I really want to keep that you know the VA rating separate from this. The services haven't figured out to where if you're a medical multiplier and mine was 80% exceeds your longevity multiplier and mine was about 60% and you want CRDP. So you want to get that second check every month. You're going to be getting your longevity multiplier like Joel said earlier, just it makes financial sense. Okay. So it's going to be a wash. But on DFS side, they're going to see that you are a chapter 61 medical retiree and you'll have the continuing benefits issued with that. So the reduced health insurance cost annually that that was the big win. You know, and there's some other little little stuff out there. And then the caveat. is fear is the mind killer. This is the the wilderness process. No one in your unit is going to be in a melee familiar with it because to be in a melee familiar with it, you either have to have gone through it or be a trained professional in it. And while, you know, all of us will separate and retire from service, it's a minority of a minority of a minority that are going to medically retire from the service. So seek expert help and choose yourself. It's going to feel wrong. You're going to feel it in your heart because you were a good service member. But now's the time in your career. You got to do it. You got to gather your medical evidence. You got to understand the process. Get a good counsel on your side and choose yourself. Put your family first. I think that's a great way to wrap it up. Paul, thank you so much for sharing your personal story. I know for a lot of these things, like it's it can be tough to go open Camono and and talk about what you've gone through, but it's extremely valuable for both people who have gone through the process and are looking for someone to relate to, but also for anybody who is considering a medical retirement or is being pushed that way, just to understand like what's going to what's about to happen. And I think that Joel, your expertise in this matter was greatly appreciated as well. I want to leave the listener with any resources Joel or Paul that you can recommend where they can go learn more about this. Joel, feel free to pitch your law firm as well. I would say that I having been a Marie course first active duty, I desert attorney. I was a guinea pig. I did every I think the only person who's done every level of DES advisory and every client that ever talked to be active duty reserve when it was government, whatever, every person is confused. So if you're feeling confused, you're not alone, you've had to you are the majority, but every person I spent at least the first 10 or 15 minutes explaining everything to them, the broad strokes and in their case. So my website, just maybe six months ago, added a resources page for this very reason because I don't know why it's so impossible for the services to just have everything that they offer just on one website. So I just broke it into DOD, then native Rincorr, Air Force and an army and the Coast Guard, they are still finalizing their ideas program. So it's actually not even they haven't published anything, which is to the chagrin of most coasties, but that is where I point most of any of my people who email me, call me, I'll tell them, hey, go to the resources page here, what I'm talking about, you can find it here under this tab, that tab because things like the CRSE guidance from the DOD, most individuals don't know it exists. They don't even understand where these rules come from. I try slowly to add resources there and I only add to things that I know are very pertinent. So I wish I could point people to another CRSE website or something like that, but I can't because they don't exist. And when it comes to the ideas, the best thing people can do is when they get the handouts from their services, is to read through them and try to just understand what the nuances are, but again on my website, I have for the on the PEP portion, I have a flow chart that I used to I just created for myself, because that's what helped me learn when I started. So when I created my website, that's what I started doing. All the flow charts I have on there, I drew them for me at one point and I said, what, this is public information, I'm not hiding it, like there's no, I'm not, I could put it, I'm not giving anything away, it's all out there. So I just did what for some reason, the military department refused to buy a MSVisio subscription and just do a wire diagram. So that's what I did. And so I did that just because honestly clients who are more informed are better clients. And people who aren't clients, it'll help them too. So why not? And I just think it's a shame that it's like humbling people with hand-dance isn't the answer. It's not quantity, it's quality. We all know that pictures, they're the same. A picture was a thousand words exist for a reason. So why every service has a flip book of pictures? I don't know because you could do it. I totally relate with that because I mean that's how my website got started was I was trying to understand the TSP, trying to understand these credit card benefits, trying to understand all the other military money stuff that and they would just throw these 10 or 20 page documents at us and I'd be like, okay, but what do I actually do with this? How can I take this very complex topic and to still it down to what do you actually need to do as a service member? So I really appreciate that you've taken the time to build those diagrams and that's how my site started was I'm just trying to understand this myself. And then once I've done the work, why not just share it with the rest of the military community for free? If that brings me a client to my military money mentor program, excellent. If a hundred people use it for free and benefit themselves, even better. Not everyone needs an attorney. And I tell people every day, look, don't hire me. You don't need me because you're dealing with this issue. It's so you don't know what that issue and all they need was someone to tell them the issue. So they don't need an attorney. And so yeah, for a lot of people who don't need attorneys, that's kind of what I want to be using that because you don't want to create a market for people who don't need the service because then it gives us as practitioners a bad reputation of tricking people into needing a service they don't need. And that shouldn't be how it is. It should be its value for value. And if you can't serve it off of value, I don't want to as a colleague. And you should be helping military members who can't afford to throw money away on someone who's not offering something about you. And that's why I tell everyone hiring an attorney, okay, who they are and what capacity it's an investment. So it's what's your ROI on that investment. If you don't see it that way, you're not looking at the right way because you'll then end up hiring the wrong person. Paul, Joel, thank you both so very much. We'll have lots and lots of resources to share in the show notes. So people can find that on Apple Spotify wherever they get their podcasts. We will make sure that we get this out to as many of our listeners as we can. Thank you both so much for taking the time. Neural, this might be our longest episode ever, nearly two hours. So lots of great information, very densely packed. And I'm sure some people who need this information will go back and listen again. But thank you both very much. Thanks, Spencer. It was a pleasure. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the Military Money Manual podcast. If you're enjoying the show, please feel free to rate, subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. This helps others find the show and we really appreciate it. Thanks again for tuning in. And we'll catch you in the next episode. The views and opinions presented here are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of the DoD or its components. Reference to any commercial products or services does not constitute DOD endorsement of those products or services.