Midnight Court: '80s vs. '90s Animated Series With Guest Judge Seth Green! | Midnight Boys

On today's show, the Midnight Boys become Midnight Toons. In honor of the 25th anniversary of Adult Swing, the Ring of Versus settling one of the most contentious debates of our time, what is the greatest air of cartoons, the 80s or the 90s? Mr. Lathen claims the 80s is the peak of the art fall, while Mr. Holmes, Mr. Deneron, and Mr. Almond seek to defend the supremacy of the 90s. It's mutant turtles against animal maniacs, sponges versus robots in disguise. This is Midnight Court. Done, done. All rise for the honorable Seth Green. Yeah, rise. Yes. Good enough. Thanks, guys. I actually-- wait, no, no, no, no, no, no. Please be seated. Thank you all. Thank you all for gathering today. I believe it is my duty this afternoon to supervise a debate between both sides about which is the greatest era of cartoons. It's the 80s versus the 90s. I have been privileged enough to experience both of those in real time shocking reality. But I really want to hear. I have opinions, obviously, but I'm open to being influenced by your opinions. Call it the order. I would like to point out that it was my understanding that we were talking about television cartoons here today. Yes. I'm sorry. I should have been clear with my specification hereby we're going to introduce a debate between the television cartoons of the 1980s and the television cartoons of the 1990s and hereby we are engaged. Correct. First of all, honorable Seth Green. We would like to thank you for your contributions to this medium and for coming on the Midnight Boys to serve as, I guess, I think that both of me and my opposing counsel here are all very happy to have you sitting down here. I'm assuming that this means that I am leading off in opening statements. You've taken the form, but just to say that thank you, it is my privilege. Okay. So, greatness has a definition. It's the quality or state of being exceptional in size, skill, achievement, power or importance. Opening statements with a definition, always a clutch movement. So, again, exceptional in size, skill, achievement, power and importance. What do I take that to mean as it relates to today's debate over the 80s cartoons which are fantastic and the 90s cartoons which are fantastic. Three things, I break this down to, variety, staying power means how long did these cartoons last in our hearts and lore, size, skill, power and importance. Depth of story, depth of story means impact, impact means obsession, obsession means staying power, which characters have endured, which characters are the engines of other lore, which characters have inspired, which characters have grounded, which characters have deepened, which characters have stayed around with people in the back of their minds to such a degree that inspired them to create not only their own worlds, but some of the worlds that we operate in. Which characters are we longing to see again? And when we see them again, when we touch them again, when we are around them again, how comfortable and emotional do we feel when they're back? When you hear, I have the power, when you hear thunder cats, oh, GI Joe, real Americans, when you hear that, what did she remain to a generation of young girls? What does Kyle Bunga mean? You had never heard it before, the world may never know, but you, but you heard it in 1997. Who do you want to hang out with? Michael Angelo. Who do you want to be your leader? Leonardo goes up and down with the 80s and what these cartoons were able to do, not just to entertain a generation of children, but to inspire a generation of creators to create lore that was so deep, impactful, and meaningful that we are still to this very day exploring it. I am not going to try to, in this conversation, in any way, contend with the variety of what happened in the 90s and the explosion of cartoons that were around in that decade, but what I will say is those sons have fathers and their dads are in the 80s. All of those cartoons, that entire boom comes from this understanding that kids needed a place to vacation where they felt safe, and that was in the 80s television cartoon, boom, and era. It's my opening statement. Thank you very much. Opposing Council, would you care to make your opening statements? Yes. Also, I just need to note that it took, it's going to take three to represent the 97. It's the 90s crew. Good morning, Your Honor. Mr. Lathen, midnight mob, midnight writers. Before we begin, I'd like to take you on a journey. Those moments we woke up on a sweet Saturday morning, the energy, the expectation of when you would run home after school. These are times of wonder, of freedom, of imagination. Who among us knew that 24 frames per second could change the world? The question laid before us today is simple. What is the greatest era of cartoons? When Mr. Lathen over there alleges that it's the 80s, we will be arguing about the 90s. But what I want us all to remember is that this is not a versus. We're discussing art, a medium, the same medium that changed my life. So please let's refrain from digging our heels too deep in the mud and making this a Jordan versus LeBron conversation. No, this is much, much higher. Today, my colleagues and I are representing 10 of the greatest cartoons of all time. The Simpsons, Batman, the animated series, SpongeBob, X-Men, Pokemon, the list goes on and on. And through these 10 shows, we're not just telling the story of a decade, but illustrating the peak of an entire art form. The 80s was the time of cultural and economic decadence and its children's programming followed suit. If this was an argument about selling plastic and the best commercials, I think Mr. Lathen over there would have the case. But today, when we talk about the 90s, we're talking about a promise made good. An explosion of art and ambition that Disney Renaissance happening in the multiplexes, the birth of dedicated children's programming like Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon, the rise of adult and teen animation on MTV and the Fox Network. See, animation is a continuum. Yes, or maybe the fathers born in the 80s, but I think every good father wants his sons to run further, to fly farther than they ever could. Today, my colleagues and I will cover three main points. Mr. Adeneron here will talk about the commercial impact of the 90s. Mr. Arman over here will talk about the lasting influence. And I will speak about the form. So I ask you, let's not get lost in nostalgia, people. Let's not turn this into generational warfare. I want us all here to remember the lessons that these cartoons taught us when we ran home. It's about teamwork. It is about community. It is about the future. And with that, those are our opening statements. Excellent. We are going to have an exciting debate, this is going to get really good. So it seems that we would simply open the floor to a debate. Are we engaged each other in a spirited Q&A? Question. I noticed in your opening argument that you mentioned the Simpsons. What year did the Simpsons debut on television? I mean, I could tell you the exact date, December 17, 1989. So let's say that I understand that the Simpsons is more of a 90s cartoon. Two weeks is not going to make the Simpsons in the 80s, right? It's not going to. We'll tell you, though, that the Simpsons debut on the Tracy Orman show, even before they debut on television. Right. So that's a little bit deeper into the 80s. What I would ask, not just you, but the audience watching is. consider the time in which the Simpsons was conceptualized, not the time in which the Simpsons actually aired on television. Think about the creation of the Simpsons. Think about a show like that that has its boon in the 90s. What is causing someone like the creative team behind the Simpsons to use animation to tell that story in that way to an audience? It is the explosion of animation that they are seeing, is the variety of animation that's happening in the 80s, is the fact that they are affected, their minds are being changed and programmed by the most vast group of animated characters that we had seen on screen ever. So in my argument is that the reason why the 80s is so important is because the groundwork for what was laid in the 90s, all of the variety and when I'm gonna talk about some of the reasons why some of these cartoons having quite endured as much as the cartoons in the 80s and we're talking about that. But animation as a medium that could touch everyone, that you could tell a more adult story like the Simpsons on television, on network television, on Fox, which is a network that was fledgling at that time that needed programming like the Simpsons. That starts in the 80s. Even your heroes are made from a time where cartoons become really, really serious business and start to dominate culture in the way that they had in before. - So that is very interesting. Yes, was did the Simpsons debut in what the final weeks of the 80s? Yes. But I will make a contention that we talk about the peak of the Simpsons and what they differ comedy and what they differ the world. That's 90s domination. But you know what? I don't think I need to totally make that point because we actually have an expert witness. Our colleague Alan Siegel who wrote a New York Times best seller on the Simpsons that released last year, actually has a statement for us in the back. Can we play our expert witness Alan Siegel and talk about the domination of the Simpsons in the 90s? - People ask me all the time what makes the Simpsons so great. The best way I can explain it is it changed the way we think about the world. So here's a good example. Couple months ago, Curry Barker, the guy who directed obsession, said he was inspired to write the movie by the Treehouse of Horror segment, The Monkey's Paw. Now, not the 120-year-old short story The Monkey's Paw, but the segment from a Simpsons episode that came out in 1991. That's years before Curry Barker was even born, but it warmed its way into his brain, and that's what the Simpsons does. Now, it doesn't really explain the show's influence, so to do that, you gotta go back to the '80s. Now, this debate is about '80s cartoons versus '90s cartoons, and this will help explain that. So in the '80s TV animation was kind of a backwater. It was cartoons made to sell breakfast cereal and action figures. Hey, I love Transformers, I love Team Man, I love GI Joe, but those were made to sell toys. It's the truth. When the Simpsons came along in the early '90s, it completely changed animation. It completely legitimized the medium, and it directly led to all these amazing shows. You had Rennand Stimpy, you had South Park, you had Rugrats, you had Futurama, you had King of the Hill, and you had Family Guy. Those shows would not exist without the Simpsons, and the Simpsons, for that reason, and many other reasons, is the best show of all time, and you cannot sway me otherwise. - Mr. Leith? It's not really speaking about the years or the epoch, per se, he's just talking about the quality of the programming itself. - But I would say the domination that happened with the Simpsons did not happen in '89, it happened in the '90s, it defined the '90s. - I feel like the peak of the Simpsons is in the mid to late '90s, and you can talk, if you read some of them, the writing about it, they say they were inspired by other cartoons in the '90s, like Batman, the Animated Series, in these of that nature. I somehow feel like you guys are arguing a point that I acquiesced. No one that has any objectivity is going to argue that the Simpsons is not a creation of the '90s. The Simpsons is part of what defined '90s culture. That is absolutely true. My case for the '80s is that the inception of even what you are naming, of what happened in the '90s, is based upon a cement foundation of what was going on in the 1980s. That what you are talking about right now, the Simpsons is an '80s creation that found its cultural footing in the '90s. It is an '80s creation that somebody decide to endeavor into animation because of the explosion, because of a group and generation of kids who were educated on animation and the depth of animation in the 1980s. I'm not going to argue about even the variety of some of the more adult animation that we saw in the '90s. All of that stuff is, it matters. It's around, it's a part of what the '90s became. My argument is greatness. And greatness to me is what endures what lasts and what moves on. That for animation, that has started in the 1980s for me. And what I would argue is that are we talking about the start of something because yes, everything has a history, everything comes from somewhere. But if we look at, let's say something like that man, the animated series. Now, when you look at not what that just did for cartoons, but for DC Comics, for live action, we could talk about Harley Quinn, we could talk about the Matt Reeves Batman, we could talk about the fact that we're these creators, that yes, grew up on cartoons that were coming out in the 60s, 70s and 80s are using all of that influence and are saying, we are going to create cartoons that just aren't kids programming, that just isn't for commercials. These are things that can fundamentally change not only how we view cartoons, but how so many of these characters are remembered far, far in the future. Let's cut the shit, okay? At this point in time, when we're talking about, oh, I don't know something like SpongeBob, Rugrats, X-Men, Pokemon, Dragon Ball Z, we are opening up cartoons to a global fucking fan base, all right? Dragon Ball Z premiered, when? When did Dragon Ball Z come out? If we're talking about when did Dragon Ball Z premiere in the United States? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm asking when was Dragon Ball Z created? Answer the question. Well, Dragon Ball Z was created in the 80s. Yeah, thank you. Dragon Ball Z has Japan premiere April 26, 1989. So when and when and can this can when did that get over to the night? Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Can I finish making my point? Finish. Okay. That leans into my point. My point is that Dragon Ball Z in its inception, when people are thinking, I want to make something cool. I want that cool thing to comport and talk about all of these themes. I'm going to do it in an animated way. Dragon Ball Z drops in the 80s. The 80s is when all of these people were having the ideas of how they could tell animated stories. So when did that show? When did it show? Show, show, show, show. SpongeBob, Rugrats, X-Men, Daria, Charles, I didn't interrupt you, I didn't interrupt you. Now let me get to everything everything that you're talking about. Let's take Batman for itself as its own example. So Batman is a very important cartoon and so is the X-Men that I wore the robe. Batman is a very important cartoon. It was the X-Men cartoon. Very important cartoons, right? Very important cartoons. I think what I'm talking about in the 80s, when I look at some of the cartoons I'm talking about. I'm talking about lore that exists on its own. Batman had been adapted and re-adapted in comic books since the 1930s. The X-Men were characters that came out in 1963 or 1964, whatever it was. The X-Men had also been in animation before the 90s, right? But when I'm looking at the characters that I'm talking about in the 80s, I'm also talking about how unique these characters are, meaning the fact that these characters have their own lore, that X-Men has his own lore that exists and deepens his world in the 80s, that the Thundercats have their own lore. They are a universe. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are a universe. Like these other characters that we're talking about, we're not talking about re-imaginings of characters, we're not talking about updates of characters, we're not talking about characters that we've always seen, the Justice League or Superman or anything like that. We're talking about worlds that were established in the 80s that could have their own conventions. We're talking about worlds that were established in the 80s that have their own people that are as furries. We're talking about one, the Care Bear, we're talking about Voltron. We're talking about things that in and of themselves exist in a deep, deep, deep universe with their own lore, with their own backstores, with their own stuff. And versatile merchandising, it's critical, guys. So many skewers. So many skewers. I think Mr. Adeneron could you maybe talk about the commercial impact of some characters that have their own lore, like I don't know, SpongeBob. Well, I mean, SpongeBob, Pokemon, Rugrats, we could see her all day and talk about how these shows, not only like fff. Because what I understand what Councillor Lathen is trying to was trying to bitch to us, right? However, you do understand that Transformers, He, Man, Thundercats are all there to sell to us, right? All these conventions were there because they had action figures. They need, they want to sell these to kids. You make the cartoons that sell the action figures to kids. That's the whole pipeline. Now, that's hard to say that. You condemning that process is still gotten newer somehow deceptive. All I'm saying is that's the truth, right? That's not to say that the cartoons are the intent somehow weaken the effect of the execute versus impact. Of course, not, of course, not your honor. What I'm saying is, yes, I bought all of those toys. No, what I'm saying, your honor is that the 90s cartoons not only did the thing where you make all the money by man, the Rugrats orange VHS tapes, the Simpsons tape shirts, brother. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing SpongeBob in the 90s, my friend. It was everywhere, okay? Batman, the animal, like these are things that encapsulated a whole generation, right? Would not only merchandise public stories only. And that's what I mean, right? These things, these cartoons came out of a need to tell stories, not to sell merchandise. How much money has been made in the history of SpongeBob merchandising? I mean, here's the thing. Okay, just do you guys know? No, no, I'm asking you, my personal receipts. Do you guys know the number? How much money has been made? I imagine. $16 billion. So $16 billion have been made off SpongeBob merchandising. There's no such thing as a children's cartoon that doesn't sell merchandise. No such thing. It is almost arbitrary, whether or not the car, the merchandising comes before the cartoon or after the cartoon. It doesn't really matter. But let me before you interject, counsel, which I did not, like before you interject, let me tell you why I don't think that it matters because in all of these things that we're talking about, what we remember is story. That's all we remember. What we remember is why skeletor wants Eternia. What we remember is how he man and Shira are related. What we remember is where the power comes from from he man. Why the Voltron must form? Why what we always remember? We never remember toys. We remember story. When you say he man, people are going to say, by the power of grayschool, I have the power. They're going to remember the incantation that he man must use to transform from Adam into he man. They are going to remember story. And it doesn't matter if that story is invented so that you buy Castle Grayschool. Castle Grayschool must have its lore. I'm not taking anything away from SpongeBob Squarepants or what SpongeBob Squarepants has meant. I'm not taking that away at all. But what I'm saying is to bring up a property that has sold 16 billion dollars worth of merchandise as an example that it's not there to sell merchandise does not make any sense. But what's interesting to me is that you keep bringing up story and lore and how deep you can get is a bunch of catchphrases because when I think of something like Batman the Animated Series, I think of the mask of the phantasm. I think about a cartoon that was on the big screen that is quite literally pushing not only that character forward but what we thought animation can be for an entire generation. When I think of Dragon Ball Z, I am thinking of coming home the tsunami block watching fucking Vegeta die sacrifice himself. It's funny. It's very funny when you keep bringing up well, oh, these stories don't have the depth of Thundercats, the TV show that I love. I find that very hard to believe but Mr. Armin, can you maybe talk about the influence, especially if some of these some of these team programming, some of these TV shows that were far more adept at really, really pushing what we knew this could be. Yes, I think it's very easy for us to push aside any sort of commercial value for either one of these immaculate decades for animation and really look at a elevated and heightened cultural relevance that came from the 90s. Not only was there a bellweather of incredible shows that pushed the envelope both commercially and critically but there's also an idea that permeated in the 90s that these creatives were almost hijacking the airwaves of our television sets to give us something so unconventional and so groundbreaking and bleeding edge that some networks didn't even know what to do with them. I think of the heightened MTV eras bringing us Daria. Not something not while also culturally relevant, relevant to a million other creators that came after them. Liquid television as well. Yes, the earliest days of adult swim giving us such high concept television shows at space ghost coast to coast. A amazing send up of the late night talk show, but we don't even need to go there. We can simply look to the hardware. Things that brought home incredible amounts of awards and a critical acclaim such as South Park, such as, oh, I don't know how many Batman, the animated series, movies have. I know that Garfield won a few in the 80s, but it's really something that got really cooking in the 90s that I think when I think that when you can you can easily see the cultural influence that came from the 80s was ultimately perfect in the 90s. You may be our fathers, but we went to the leak. What a fascinating. I just love that you dragged Garfield. - Two-time date, time maybe. - Anyway, I'm not getting this reddit garbage. - I feel dead. - Yeah, we agreed, we agreed before this, Mr. Layton, that we would have a top 10. Can you please list your nonexistent-- - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no (indistinct chatter) - We are in court of law, by the way. This is nothing but an appeal to authority. - I'm appealing to the people. - The power is cool, even e-man said so. - So I find the appeal to authority fascinating in the realm of cartoons. Like in the realm of cartoons, I'll tell you why. There is no authority that can encapsulate what it feels like to spend time with your friends that are animated on television. There is, can I please finish? There is no authority that can encapsulate what it feels like to sit down and with a cartoon, right? And be in a world with your friends and you're there and it's babysitting you. It's helping raise you. It's giving you a message. You are connecting to the medium. It's forming the ideas in your brain. I couldn't care less how many imis everything won. I know that that's important. I don't care how many imis, how many Layton, I don't give a fine fuck about that. What I care about is that there was a generation of young people and children that was inspired by worlds that they could not put their fingers and hands on that were demonstrated to them on television. And when did that start for them? How did that start for them? And are they still connected to those characters now? Because you can talk about Daria or you can talk about Beavison Bloodhead characters that are really important, but that are flashpoint examples of a time fixed in the 90s. And then you can talk about He-Man with the Thundercats or Voltron or these relentless, eternal worlds that people keep going back to. And I can go further if you want me to, if you want to talk about my top 10, if you want to talk about the care bears, if you want to talk about all different types of people with different types of lore, with different types of language that make people feel in different ways, right? So I just let you guys know, I think about all the imies that everybody won for everything that they were doing. And I'm gonna say one thing. I don't give a fuck. But I can't care about the language itself. - I can't care about the language itself. - You keep talking about shows that are everlasting. Mr. Lathan, how much did the He-Man movie make, please? - Oh, it made 17, no, it made 17. No, it made 17. - It made 17 dollars. - Okay, can I ask you a question? Like, is that okay? It's since you wanna bring that up? - I bet, but we have a respawn on the streaming view, okay? - Okay. (laughing) - Can't Amazon Prime number three? - It's a movie about how long ago I got the streaming. - The characters are, and it seems like they're kind of on the last legs. - Okay. Well, I'll just have you know that live-action movies that are based on toys in the '80s have made nearly eight billion dollars. - How many of that transformers speak? - A lot of it is transformers, but that doesn't mean anything. What that means is that the transformers themselves had a deep enough lore to continue things into the 2000s. So so if you want if you want to have a conversation, I was not going to bring it up I figured you guys might but if you want to have a conversation About how these characters have transitioned into live action I'm not saying right now that the he-man movie didn't come too late I'm not saying that that's not a 2006 movie or 2010 movie rather than 2026 movie because now the movie is for you guys when it shouldn't have been But what I will say is that to have those movies in live action and To put them on the screen for worldwide audiences We don't have to ask whether or not it's worked it has worked and it's worked Over and over again, and it's worked for huge huge box office returns and made stars Stars that your generation has watched. Well, but here's the thing. We don't have to talk about live action mr. Lathen Did you support the latest thunder cats animated show very good that came out on cartoon network? I did watch it did you but here's the thing. Did you support it? Did we talk about it on the midnight boys? Did you you keep saying how ever lasting all of these things are but it seems like that show got canceled? For the exact reason that you're you're saying but oh, it's live action. Oh, it's this is no it's that if all of these TV shows were as iconic and influential as you would say Why aren't the boomers over there? I'll only interject that TV's so complicated. I mean the residents didn't get a second season So I mean that I mean that's like almost a non-art. But I'm I'm looking at I'm looking at the Simpsons I'm looking at Spongebob. I'm looking at Rugrats. I'm looking at Oh, X-Men 97. We covered that on the midnight boys I'm looking at Pokemon. Well, we cover no we cover by the way We covered X-Men 97 on the midnight boys and we should just say that you hated it So so so if we're gonna talk about is this is our is my opinion my critical opinion Hold on hold on About this X-Men 97 opinion you don't want to get into we don't have time but I say this though so my chambers so so asking hold on hold on just real quick So asking whether or not I Enjoyed or supported a thundercast cartoon which every thundercast cartoon that's come down. Okay, let's come on. I've watched it right asking whether or not I've enjoyed or supported it because it hasn't been on the midnight boys is a weird argument especially since you mentioned X-Men as a part of 90s Animation that you loved and you have done nothing on this podcast for two different seasons of X-Men 97 except shit on it Hey, hey, it's called X-Men 90 fucking seven So apparently you don't like the X-Men cartoon from from the 90s and X-Men 97 as much as you say thank you But I'm glad that you brought up this place because all of us have jobs talking about Lore stuff, right? All of us have jobs talking about lore stuff. We all have jobs talking about it I'm gonna use a different exhibit and the exhibit is this it says I wasn't a comic book scholar as a kid I knew of them, but most of my knowledge of the Marvel characters came from the 80s animated series and pop culture Who do you think said that? Richard Nixon. Yes, he was the first to say it. That was Kevin Feige. Okay, who said that? Kevin Feige said that a lot of his and he goes on to say just how much of This medium just how much of all of this lore that the 80s cartoons solidify for him So you guys don't exist as the midnight boys without this era You're simply not here because without the Marvel Cinematic Universe this podcast doesn't exist and all three of you know it So the the reason that you are sitting here Talking to me the reason that you were in vanity fair The reason that you're joe me the explainer that you're a chuck that you're Steve that I'm me the reason set is here The reason to set exists the reason all of it by the guy who put it together It's because he was inspired to be deep into these characters and to these worlds by stuff that he watched in cartoons in the 80s He said that I didn't what a boomer take what's where you keep it your main argument is that you guys I want to make sure that you guys can hear what I'm saying you brought up you brought up the last thing legacy Of any of this stuff and you brought it up to say that I don't watch the Thundercats, right? And so my retort to that is not only do I watch it was you and your elk and like like is not only do I watch the Thundercats Not only did you watch the one of the cartoons that you said you love that you fucking hate now But I'm also saying that the legacy of all of that time lives on in stuff like this I couldn't care less whether or not Kevin Feige Likes this stuff or doesn't like this stuff what I'm telling you is that my point is that this era of television It's so singularly important with what it did for to expand everybody's mind more It's more important than the 90s. Yes. It's not more varied It's not deeper, but it's more important the quote. So you're on your own You are saying the quality of 80s children's programming was higher than the 90s. I like them better, but that doesn't matter But I asked you a question. Well, the the simple question in its clarity is what is the greatest era of cartoons 80s versus 90s And he was obviously open to interpretation and his argument is that the 80s is the greatest because it came first it came first now Well more if I understand it. Well, we get into that later. Yeah. Oh, why don't we open it up to your honor? Why don't you I don't know guys. I watched all this shit like it was It was great and I and I was so young watching TV that I saw like the really fucked up stuff coming out of the end of the 70s Yeah, because they was still putting that on the UHF and rerunning like they were like, we I don't know We put this in front of our kids. What does it do to your brain? And it was just so experimental and strange and so yeah, I got to Grow up in an era where all of the animated programming came post the Reagan administration's decision to loosen the FCC rule that allowed entire programming to exist around something that would have a product So there used to be an FCC regulation against that And then they were like that fuck it. Let's let's make an entire show about this gavel and holy gavvy And then everyone to watch this episode of gavvy and be able to buy all of the toys and literally you're correct Everything came from a consumer intent, but I don't think that lessons The goal of any of the creators right because a lot of creators were putting out stuff that they were like I don't know is this a fucking toy and then plenty of people were like yeah, what if it was a story about these guys You know what I mean? So I don't even know how to approach this Debate from a decision-making standpoint because each one of these errors provided so much valuable programming so much consistent inspiration and do you punish the later Renaissance masters because they learned from all of the experiments of the early impressionists like everybody goes to look at the Mona Lisa and they're like What is this? It's so little. It's so shitty and of course that's not Meaningful the the piece itself is almost Unimportant. It's the fact that this was the very first time that somebody was like hi, it's a portrait But out the window. There's a landscape and everybody was like what a landscape and a portrait in the same image what You can fucking do that and so from there everybody's making landscape portraits They're putting like people in large situations. It's not just portraiture and as a result the Mona Lisa becomes them one of the most important pieces in art history Just because somebody tried something so experimental. I don't know that it It's like do you do you punish the creation of everything inspired by the Mona Lisa because it was not the inspiration itself Can you say the Mona Lisa is one of the greatest Art pieces of all time. It does it simply represent such a critical moment For the art world as a whole that it will always be a classic. I'll answer this question. So I'll tell you I'll answer this question. This is the way I look at this. Okay. Let's say more of a statement, but it is a debate Let's say you bring in Let's take this to take this to hip-hop Let's say you bring in a record right and the record is the first time somebody used the 808 Or it's the first time you heard it first time somebody put the drum is on there or whatever but the record sucks The record is still important because it's the first time you heard this technology My thing is What if you bring in the first time somebody ever used the 808 and the record is amazing Then it has two things going forward number one the composition of the most Mona Lisa is phenomenal Like the composition as it as a piece of art is phenomenal. It is also pushing Art forward generations, right? But the composition of it is phenomenal Why not the the cartoons that go back before the Flintstones we could talk about cartoons everything has But when I'm talking about our cartoons to me that are both phenomenal and scope and story maybe not an animation like phenomenal and scope and story But also insanely influential to one of the most most important groups of creators ever. 'Cause a lot of the cartoons that you guys are talking about, they were created in the 80s. - Okay. - It was the time when this was gestated. - No, that's a good point. That's a good point. Okay, so let's use your hip hop analogy. Okay, one of the first examples of like rap that like really escaped pop culture. Grandmaster Flash in the Furious Five, right? - One of the first examples of rap, that's a, okay. - Like cool, big, like what? - This is what 1989 or not, yeah, like late, late 80s. - Like the, like via Blondie. There was a moment where Blondie was like, "Hey guys, why'd America rap is a thing?" - He's talking about the message. It's before, it's a month before, '99. - But it was like a breakthrough. - Yeah, like a breakthrough, exactly, right? And then like, that's when people are like, "Yo, people can really like rap like this." Oh my gosh, this is like, this is crazy. Then you come back like mid '90s. You get Eric Beamer King. - Mid '90s? - Early '90s, yeah, but like, just go ahead and do it. - Yeah. - You know what I'm trying to say? - Yeah. - Why are you doing this to me? - Because, because the timeline matters to you. - The timeline's like, "You're right, you're right." - Yeah, but go ahead, go ahead. - Would you like, even though like, we know Grandmaster Flash Furious Five, that is like extremely important to hip-hop. Would you now go back and say that Eric Beamer King, what they were doing, was not trans-hover. It was not magical in that. You would put Grandmaster Flash in a level above Eric Beamer King because they came first. - I love this, that you went here. First of all, your dates are messed up, but that's okay. So your dates are messed up, but that's okay. I love that you did this. Rock him is exactly what I'm talking about. Because Rock him to me is the Marlon Brando of rap. Marlon Brando as an actor is the guy. He didn't do this by himself, but he represented the break between, I ain't saying I'm a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And to get myself in the method sort of approach to acting that changed up that led to Nicholson and Hoffman and all of these guys from the Stratford School the stuff that came right after him, right? And changed the way movies are created. Rock him is that for hip-hop. But if you were making the top five lists right now, a top 10 list, people wouldn't put them on it. People wouldn't put them on it because the people that came behind him, the JZs and the people like that have built on what he did and taken the art form to a place where they won all the Grammys and they sold all the records and they did all of that. But the fact that you bring up Rock him who legitimately to me, to me, other people will say it's cool G-Rap, other people will say it's different people. It's the architect of modern rap. His place in this particular game and hip-hop cannot be clouded or shrouded by nobody to me because he legitimately to me changed the way people rap and something else. He remains right now, no matter who you put on a mic that started rapping after him. One of the single nicest motherfuckers that you've ever heard before in your life. So if you listen to lyrics or fury, if you listen to some of the stuff that came out after that, if you listen to Guess Who's Back, if you listen to so much different Rock him shit, your favorite guy who sold 10 million records and run all the Grammys and all this stuff that matters, he'll outwrap them right now. And I'm already like that. And I will say if we get out of, you know, being so incendiary, plentory, whatever, I do agree with you. I love cartoons. And if you ask any of the animators, the storyboard artists, directors who came up during the '90s, they will obviously gush about what was happening in the '60s, the '70s and '80s. And I agree, it is so, so, so important. The future is mashup. Yes, it's so important to honor the architects. But if we right now are making a list of not just the greatest era, but the greatest cartoons of all time, I would argue that there are so many on this list that would easily be in the top five because it, it takes great architects to build a foundation. And then you see your kids and your sons and your daughters run and push them medium forward and take something that people thought was childish and only for kids and to say like, no, we are going to expand through this art, what you think a cartoon can be. That's not just the sentence, that's not just Batman the animated series. We respect the '80s, you know? We respect, we respect the carabairs, the teenage mutant Ninja Turtles, the Transformers. But I don't think that we can have an honest conversation without being quite honest, that narratively, what these, what these heroes were pushing just in how they were drawing, how they were storyboarding, how they were taking stuff where it's like, oh, this is a narrative that's going to follow episode one, episode two, episode three. We do have to bring that in the conversation and that's not to denigrate the '80s. That's just to say like, hey, every art form is going to progress and the '90s is where the peak is. I don't agree. And so this is the crux of the argument. The crux of the argument is, while I do agree that there's more variety and more production value in the cartoons from the '90s, I don't think that they're that much better. I legitimately don't. I think that a lot of times they're more daring, they look better, there's different things, but as far as like, what I get from them, I don't think they're that much better. Don't you think that's an nostalgia? It doesn't matter whether or not it's an nostalgia. I think it matters very much. Well, no, because you have nostalgia. Yes. This is your stuff. So when you're telling me right now that like you look at all of these things from the '90s, you're talking to me from nostalgia. See, a lot of people think that nostalgia is only the oldest thing. Nostalgia is your thing. So when you're talking to me about '90s cartoons, you're talking to me about nostalgia. You're looking at this and it's interesting that we haven't really talked that much about in the nostalgia. We went to other things that like what the television, the Academy and all of these people thought, but you're talking to me within the nostalgia. And so like what I'm saying is that doesn't matter. I am saying I legitimately like the Thundercats more than Rugrats. I like it better. Like I'm saying that I legitimately, legitimately like the Transformers more than SpongeBob Squarepants. I like it better. The Decepticons. Just a question, I apologize for everything, but do you think that that's connected to what was new in your own timeline? I saw something really interesting happen, right? 'Cause I grew up in the era of brand newness of Star Wars. So like I got to see the first Star Wars in the theater. I was like a baby and my parents brought me to see the first Star Wars. And so that always had a deep connection for me. Everything came out in real time. My parents were like, this fucking Star Wars, right? And I got to experience it. So when the next generation of Star Wars was coming out, all of the advertising, it targeted that legacy of nostalgia that everyone's like, you remember how this could go? You remember what this feels like? To love these characters, to get in this universe, to share it with your kids, right? But the kids didn't have the same access portal because their experience was defined by the permanent existence of all of these icons and ideas, right? So kids born into the prequel era were like handed down Star Wars as something that forever existed. And some of the generation got into it, was able to take it as their own. But I saw something totally different happened when like Guardians of the Galaxy came out. And all of a sudden, a brand new generation of not just kids, but also parents or experiencing something for the first time. So just to make this point, I feel like it's important to the debate, to just acknowledge that what you experience as a kid is forever gonna be the thing that you beat your chest about because it's what helped you gain your perspective on the world to come. It's shaped the way that you receive these kinds of things. And I don't know that we can realistically determine a greatest era when the one you experience in real time with your friends and other people that helps you sort of understand, oh, I think these things, I feel this way. This is what I find funny. These are the things that I care about. That it happens in real time in your generation with all of the media that's put in front of you. And it's what you and your friends choose to share and sort of fall in best friend love about, right? I worry that we won't be able to authentically determine because the greatness of it is almost held by the behold. - So I actually agree, but this is what I say, this is what I'll say to Star Wars and to what we're talking about. I'll say that Luke has actually tried to non-styles around, right? He literally tried it, right? - In the 90s, he tried it in Phantom Minutes, right? He tried to non-styles around, he tried to give you more elevated what he thought was political and stuff, but at that time he couldn't execute it, right? The other stories, there's something about the first three stories that is simpler. Therefore, I don't want to say that it's better, but it's more digestible. So even what we're talking about, which is the idea that something is better just because it's more expansive, I will always push back. Something is good to me because how it makes you feel and how long it lasts. And that is what I'm judging this on. I'm just like sex, am I right guys? (audience laughing) Like how long something lasts, how I make you feel. That is why I fuck with it. - But I would, if we're using that criteria, how something makes you feel and how long it lasts, I would argue a lot of the cartoons that we're talking about have lasted longer. - Well, no. - I mean, relevant longer. - Well, I mean, it's tough right, because then you get into conversations about like the really, the really older stuff, like stuff, stuff like stuff that came to the US, like star blazers or battle the planets, like stuff that was in Japan for years. Before that, the thing about the '80s that were so interesting is it was like, I don't fucking know, kinda era, right? And so a lot of people were just putting up shots, like maybe this is a thing. The story of any of those, like original Japanese animation shows is how the format of American distributors being like, well, let's just get a license for this and they completely change it, I don't know. - Let's chop it up. - Let's make it, let's make these guys this. - Yeah. - Maybe not animation, but like Power Rangers. - They just didn't have any translators. So they were like, I don't know, maybe these guys are bad guys and they sort of wrote a new story about it. You're right, that did really become the whole subon era of Power Rangers. - Exactly. - I don't know, but I still love those shows. Those things that I learned from watching OG Voltron and especially like Robotech, those lessons, I learned them almost too young, right? It was such a sophisticated emotional, it didn't cater to the idea that you're a kid and that you wouldn't understand. It's more like you get this, you're a fucking kid. Right, 'cause kids are so adaptable. You're like, okay, that's the message. That's your OS is overwritten so quickly, right? It's almost dangerous. - Can I ask you, just break a character for a minute as a creator of Robotechicken. How do you delineate the errors? Because you guys lampooned stuff from the '70s, from the '80s, from the '90s, and obviously you grew up in the '80s, so you'll have that. - Well, I did, I had this weird thing of like growing up in the '80s in the '90s. Like I was 16 years old when I moved to LA and that was 1991 and so, or maybe 1990. But it was, I had like a secondary teenage evolution like went to school out here, had fun groups out here with a prom in LA, you know what I mean? It was a very weird duality, but I got to experience both sides of it. And also I never felt like it took me a second to find my literal peers, 'cause the shit that I wanted to talk about in the '80s, it was very limited access to other people that shared that view, was mostly like, the fuck are you talking about? I love Batman, I love Batman, you gotta understand the fantastic four, it's so great, and the family dinnae, it's not bad. - Well, we're about chicken the biggest thing that we're conscious of is just knowing that we're not the sum total of experience, especially with pop culture. And that's really what we think robot is, it's like your relationship with pop culture in whatever era it is. And sometimes we can apply more screen time to something that we know more people are like, ask about, but a lot of times we love just putting four or six seconds at something that one guy is like, "Tichy, was that the fucking thing from the Carvelle in these jerseys?" And we're like, "That was." - Why would you make that? We're like, "This for you dude, this for you." It's my favorite thing. - It's for whoever got it. - Yeah, there's somebody, there's somebody, but you know it's like we can't put more than three seconds into this guy's life. - Here's the thing, we will be arguing all day. Judge Seth, we want to talk more about robot chicken. So you do have to make a decision? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So you make your decision and then we'll get into more of the left contentious part of this episode. - Well, I want to give my final something. - Right, right, this is what I feel this way. - But just to introduce the debate, I have to say 'cause what we're really talking about is greatness and what is the definition of greatness, right? Like, especially you could apply this to almost any field, the professional boxing, right? Like, I look at someone like Mike Tyson as one of the greatest fighters of all time, but I was also living through his era. So I got to see him as a young fighter with all of his complicated circumstance. I got to see him raw and young and sort of un, like the so few people that take an advantage of him, the way that people would come to like, just come at him. And so to me, he's one of the greatest fighters of all time, but then I look at footage of Ali. And even like casual footage, interviews, him at like the Oscars. And it's, I can't, it's hard to argue, right? So what we're talking about is greatness. - Yes. - And what would define the ultimate perception of the greatest era of cartoons, the '80s versus the '90s, here we are. - So I'm gonna tell you how I view these cartoons and stuff like this. And this is the part where there is nostalgia that's definitely in it, right? So if you think about the characters that are discussed here, obviously ingenuity matters, lore matters, all of that stuff is important. But the thing that makes these cartoons endure to me is because the question is answered, which of these characters do you want to be your friends? Like which of these worlds do you wanna hang out in with these characters as your pals? Do you wanna hang out with Michael Angelo? Do you wanna pet a care bear? How awesome would it be to fight alongside Lionel? He'd go on adventure with he, man. Hang out with the duck tails, like adopt a pound puppy. All of those cartoons that we had in the '80s, they were made for a different time. You did not live through the '80s, you survived to them, right? It was a world and a time before the world was disinfected. And when you see that the world was disinfected, it becomes the beginning of something very distinct. This freedom to create, which I applaud, this freedom to be daring, which I applaud, this use of the medium in a different way, which I applaud. But what I will say is that it also got fragmented. There was adventure cartoons for their adventure kids. There was more dope cartoons for their dope people. There were cartoons that were Darya and Bives and Bloodhead, you brought those cartoons up. Those cartoons were more aimed at me, somebody who was born in 1980. But like Bives and Bloodhead were a sense of rebellion for me. Darya comes from that and all of that stuff. Elon flux, all of that stuff, all of that stuff I watched, it all mattered. But it to me was much more of its time than the stories, the lore, the characters, and the kingdoms that were really birthed out of the cartoons in the '80s. And not just that, the talent came from it. So if you're saying the best, the best era of cartoons, I'm making the distinction. If you're saying the best era of cartoons, the '90s, if you're saying the greatest, the greatest era of cartoons, great means, lasting influence, ingenuity, quality of art, all of that, I say that it is the '80s. That's my case. Gentlemen. If we're talking about greatness, I think what's important is Mr. Lathen obviously brought up that without the '80s we would not be here. But I think what is actually impressive about the '90s is the very thing that Mr. Lathen over there tend to greats. It's the fact that with these cartoons, it opened up a wide net. It's the fact that, yes, in the previous decade, maybe the lines were more drawn. You were a nerd. If you like team-man, teammates, moving into turtles, or if you couldn't put your X-Men action figures away. But I really think it's the '90s why this show exists because it says two people, hey, it doesn't matter if you're into SpongeBob or the Rugrats or Powerpuff girls, indexers, laboratory, or Darya and Beaveson Butthead, we are opening up this world to show all of us deep, deep, deep down our nerds. And that's what I think the true measure of greatness is. It's the fact that saying, hey, instead of thinking that this is a small tribe that will never get bigger, hey, man, the Simpsons might not be your thing, but I got something called Gundam. I have something called Dragon Ball Z. I have all of these other things. And if you can get all of those people in the net, suddenly it's less, you're a nerd, you're a nerd, and we're all nerds. So when I think about greatness and what I think about the '90s, I think it's taking all of those decades that came before, not just the '80s, not just the '70s, not just the '60s. It's taking all the blood, the sweat, the tears, the fighting, that all of those animators, all those storyboard artists, and saying, hey, now that the leash is taken off, we're gonna show you what we can actually do. And I think that that is something that we always need to celebrate when we talk about animation. We have to celebrate the fact that like, hey, all the architects that came before, they built such a solid foundation, we're gonna get buckwild, we're gonna get fucking crazy, and we're gonna show people that it isn't just a small tribe anymore. This is something global. - I mean, I spent a lot of time talking about greatness. You know what I mean, lasting influence, size, skill, staying power, whole thing. and allow me to, you know, piggyback off your sports metaphor, your honor. The 80s, 'cause I'm not the sports guy. (laughing) I'm very funny. We talk about, we talk about the NBA, the 80s, for the NBA, it's kind of like the 80s for animation, right? Bird and Magic, Transformers, G.I. Joe, E-Man, came and showed the world like, yo, this is something that has lasting influence. This will be here for a long time, okay? This is not just a fad, it's not just a moment. These, this medium, this era of whoops, this era of cartoons is here to stay. But the 90s is where size, skill, staying power, and lasting influence were perfective. Our Michael Jordan, SpongeBob, Batman, the Simpsons. We've gone this whole time, haven't met your family guy, by the way, something to know, Animaniacs, the 90s is where cartoons make their magic. - Speed takes so long. - And it's the, - Can I just say that, just real quick, that you guys, I should be in front of the eye, (all talking) - You will have an opportunity for a rebuttal. - Okay, 'cause, 'cause, 'cause you guys have, (all talking) - Galslip receipt. - I'll be quick, your honor. The things that indeed raise the creatives and the authors of the 90s, or a great service to the 80s, truly, they do. And it's the level at which they were allowed, that level of expression, that level of ingenuity, that level of bravery to change formulas in such a way that the 90s brought in really makes a foundation upon a stronger foundation. And the things that brought everything out of the 2000s and the early 2010s, even today, the people that were raised in the 80s were now making the things that the 90s are produced. And yes, we owe a great debt to it, but the things that came out of this, both in critical acclaim and in ingenuity, come from the 90s, unimpeachable. - We are not slaves to time. We are not slaves to the fucking point. - So quick. So Councillors have your attention. - So, okay. - So quick rebuttal. - Just quick rebuttal, 'cause I didn't know that there were gonna be three different closing arguments, right? Like, I thought, - Are we not a team? - Well, no. - Are we litigating? - Are we litigating? - Can I ask you a question? Has there, have you ever been in the court before? You're in the court. One guy, it's a-- - Hold on, listen, listen. - Has there ever been a rebuttal to a closing statement? - Well, I'm telling you straight up, there's a whole-- - You already got your time. - Listen, can I talk? - There's a whole team of lawyers. There's a whole team of lawyers and one person gives a closing statement. That's how that goes. Well, I'm gonna respond directly. - Why are you responding to a closing statement? - I'm gonna respond to gentlemen. - I knew he was gonna respond to this. - I'm gonna respond directly to gentlemen. - I'll tell you why. - I do it. - Because I'll tell you why. - I'll tell you what time rule. - I'll tell you why. - I do it. - That is a fucking horrible example. So in the '80s, so in the '80s, so the '90s were better than the '80s for the NBA, specifically on superficial levels. In the '90s, you had, in the '80s, you had three different. You had the Celtics, the pistons, the Lakers, the '76s. You had all-time grates exploding the league to a place that they've never gone to before. You had the ascension of Michael Jordan. You had magic versus bird. You had downright culture that has almost not been matched in the NBA since. - Versus the '90s Mexican-- - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - This is not the best of the '90s. - This is the best of the '90s Mexican. - Versus the '90s Mexican. - Can I point the mic? - Can I finish? - No, no, no. - Michael's, Michael's, what? - What? - But listen, but listen. - What are you talking about? - Listen. - But listen. - But listen. - You go straight here, and tell me that you're, like, like, Joey. - Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey. - No, no, no, no, no. - Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey. - Second, Joey, let me finish, bro. I did not interrupt you while you were talking. - Okay, we're so far off. - Okay, so listen. - Okay, so listen. - Let's see where this goes. - Like, the essential of Michael Jordan comes along, but it also comes along with this insane dominance. It also comes along with-- - When? - Jumping, let me finish. - Aftermarket-- - Aftermarket-- - Aftermarket, aftermarket on the sneakers. - Listen. - Listen. - It also comes along, like, it also comes along with expansion coming into the league. It also comes along with a different style of basketball. Like, Michael Jordan, if you look at Michael Jordan in the '80s, in the '90s, that was a less competitive decade of basketball, with actually less guys that got to the mountaintop and to the peak. - This is already been brought by the way. - But when I'm telling you, it's not arguing for Brown, because everybody won't champion so on Brown's watch, but what I'm saying is, if you compare '90s basketball to '80s basketball, I actually understand why y'all would like the '90s more. It's a place where the global market went crazy, where they were able to coalesce around one guy more than anything else, where you have worse basketball being played, if you look at some of the nicks and stuff like that. Look, I'm not getting to all of that, but I would say that the same decade that gave you Dr. Jay, Bird, Magic, Michael Jordan, the bad boys' pissants, different styles of basketball from different places, fast-breaking on the West Coast, beating your ass up in Detroit. The blue collar basketball you get from the Celtics, all of that stuff, that's better, that's a better decade. That's a better decade of basketball. - This is the same for you. - He's mostly saying he doesn't like your clothing. - I'm saying the clothes, I'm saying the clothes, I'm saying the clothes and arguments is actually indicative of the argument that we're having right now. - It's not, it's not, because what you're looking at is you're looking at how shiny the toy is rather than just outside. - That's not true. - What I asked you about, what I asked you about, what I asked you about the night is you know about it. - But I know you know about it. - I actually disagree with this. - No, you don't. - I don't know what you're talking about this all the time. - No, I talked about, would you do it? - Please get back to the question. - I actually disagree with you. - I don't know this is really fun. - I don't think you do. - How much? - I don't think you do it. - Wait, wait, wait, just give me one second, just give me one second. - On a podcast a couple of weeks ago, we spent like 15 minutes talking about the last dance and what that did to us. And even though it was this pandemic, the phenomenal, right? And what do you think? - Mike Miles movie. (laughing) - And what Mike meant in that moment, in real time, right, in the 90s. You're gonna sit here and tell me that, look, Mike, or not my chart, magic and birth save ball, right, the 70s, it was bad, like the Joe Uses, all that. We get to the 80s that rivalry brought the NBA back, and 84 when David Stern takes over, like that's better to be the dominance by one player. - I don't, that's it, but that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about when the league exploded. The league exploded in '92 when Mike and them went to Barcelona technically. Brother Technically, we're talking about the greatest era of cars. - Because he's playing. - I'm not lying. - I know what you're lying. - Seriously, stop saying that. - Like I'm being all the way to Barcelona. - Oh, he's simply saying that the original space jam was better than the new space jam. - Your honor, would you please? - Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, this has been hilarious. (laughing) - Is what we do. - Welcome to the big dive point. - Okay, great, great. - Bye. - This is a really challenging question, just in summary before we throw this to the poll. Because it is, do I render a decision before or after the poll? - I mean, you could if you wish. - If you wish. - I don't really know. - We're not going to, we're not doing a poll. - We're not going to know what the poll is, the people will get better. - Oh, fair enough. - I genuinely don't know because I do believe that the context of the greatest is kind of defined by the beholders who get through experience in real time. Like we've done so much stuff on robot chicken through the years and the people that stuff, the stuff that people love the most is always something that they're either discovering but like that's the fucking crazy thing is how many people were like, I didn't know he meant was a thing. And I love Skeletor now and it is like, why, that just feels so disruptive to what I would think your learning mechanisms would be. Like parents who told me that they showed their kids robot chicken star wars before they showed them real star wars and I was like, does that fuck up the way that you think of Darth Vader? Like when Darth Vader's coming at you with a lightsaber you're like, that guy's not scary. I saw him in a Christmas sweater on roller skates and it didn't seem to like the comedic interpretation of it doesn't seem to color the interpretation of any of this sincere messages. That was the conversation that Jeff Johns and I had about the DC characters when we set out to make robot chicken DC specialties like I said, what's on the table, what are we allowed to do? He's like, you do anything. You don't, when you see it, if it's funny or not, but you say, you can't break these characters. These characters exist at such a weight and gravity that regardless of the interpretation, whatever the audience's first blush is with them, they love them because that's what those characters do. They inspire love, they inspire attention, right? And then you're captive for whatever story is being told around them. It's funny like I talked to him, I had this thought because I love him. I love Stephen King and I started to see so many media interpretations of King that you have I had this realization like King is sort of the new Shakespeare, right? Like we can just see somebody else do the stand. At some point it's like a it's a western now, right? Stranger Things, Widow's Bay, everything is through that filter. Right, right. So those formats really work the audience's appetite for new versions of these kinds of characters in a similar story that innovates in one way or another. That that remains like from the days of, you know, the greatest bars or racontours moving about around fires and telling people stories, right? But that's I don't know how to how to discern what is the greatest because I think what's most great is the fact that we as a species are addicted to this, that we want to share these stories and our celebration of great characters together. I love that the most that that's what's persevered is whenever so bored or so or so well programmed that we're not looking for something new, something to something new that we can currently share together, but all along these same lines, all along these same concepts and formats. But I don't know guys, less about labels. You got to make a decision. Oh, yeah, oh. Totally fair. Well, yeah, Judge. Thanks, guys. Yeah, he's real. I do. I keep it really really real. Yeah, this sucks. This sucks. Because I agree with everything that you've said and also I really like I feel you guys and kind of was in both of these eras. It's all great is what he said. No, no, no, that's not fair. Toughest test of Seth's career, right? It genuinely is, right? This is worse than accidentally handing out an Oscar file. La La Land. Well, if we're talking about greatness, right? And the greatness that's consolidated in a period of time, I think it will come down to what is most remembered and it's impossible to argue how all of the innovations of the 80s, all the creations of the 80s, all of the tools and mechanisms and like just the thought process, right? Like there was so much taking industrial things and commercial concepts and mashing it up with art in a way that was liberated by War, like Warhol's movement, Basquiat, like all of these other people who were like art is art can be something that is commercial, right? Like art is the feeling that you get when you witness something and that's why Warhol was obsessed with the idea of the Campbell Soup can. He said what in post-war times, what represents greater stability than canned nutrition? And so just that iconic design, that was what he argued. Pop art is akin to Da Vinci. You could own this piece of commercial art, the the the borax soap bar. He was like, this is a globally recognized image that inspires a feeling to a generation. So don't hate me guys, I have to say that the 80s was the greatest era of cartoons and all things that came after that exist in their own unfolding greatness will forever owe a debt to this period of time that showed everybody how to continue to innovate. It's why like the very first American Idol that I saw in the US is probably the best example of that format, even though it was extracted and elevated to greater commercial success. That idea of genuinely sourcing a talent from all over the nation before everybody was corrupted with like, well, we don't want to make this person feel bad. Or everyone was like, God, it is really hilarious to watch these narcissists try when they just don't have the talent. Right. The original contest where even Simon Cowell was like, what are we talking about guys? We're not, this isn't a joke. We're going to put millions of dollars behind this person. And are they going to sell tickets? Are they going to sell records? Like all of that, it's foundational, it's foundations exist in that period of time. I know. I love all of these things. That's what's so hard. I love all this shit so much. I made a fucking TV show about it for 20 years. What are we talking about? I love all of this shit. Gentlemen, you've all made incredible cases. I'm sure I'm going to get fucking dragged. But what do you want? I'm an elder statesman and I'm always going to be in the back. Well, thank you. You're on a bank that gap. I will. Thank you, gentlemen. This was an incredible debate. And I feel like it was a privilege to preside over it. Definitely. All right. Before we leave, want to get into some robot chicken stuff before you go. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm just going to catch these Pokemon while we're talking, no. Pokemon go. Don't fuck with me, guys. What are you catching right now? What did I even get on anything? I'll check with the auto catcher guy. Okay. Y'all are y'all on this program? No, I'm I'm surprised. It's like it's still shocking how many people are still playing. It's no, that's what's fun is like it's first of all, it's the only thing in my life that's not work. Like even all of my greatest passions got turned into a job. Really? Hey, hey. Obviously you're here. You guys just robot chicken just released a, um, a special. Have you seen it? I have. The anniversary of the adult swing special. Yeah. By first question for you is very, very simple. How do you start put it? Because robot chicken puts its arms around cartoons of other decades. Obviously, that's what we'll be talking about. How do you put your arms around the decade that you were a part of? Well, for us, like, or at least I'll speak for me, but Matt Matt and I were in lockstep about this. We talked about what we wanted. Because they came at us and we're like, all right, we're going to do two specials. It's already been announced that we did a cartoon network special come out next year and a wholly dedicated adult swing special. So we were privileged enough to be like on that. I mean, obviously riding on the shoulders of, you know, Michael O'Lean and Keith Crawford and Mike Lazo who sold this block. Sort of renegade bullshit programming between 1130 at night and 6am on Sunday. They were like, whatever you want. See if you can get commercials. See if you can get any advertising dollars against it. We give you zero money. It was what they said. And so they did. They took like, they essentially clip art of existing animated stuff, properties that they owned and made like space ghost and Harvey Birdman, attorney at law, like just created the weirdest most renegade shit and then bought reruns of shows, right? Like that's why family guy wound up back on Fox. We were long canceled and then Lazo bought the reruns of family guy. Those first, we did 22, but I think they only had the first like 13 or 14 of them and they just ran the shit out of those. And it just got so much viewership that McFarlane called me and was like, I know you guys pitched this week because we had made robot chicken as like a web a web episode web episode stuff for a dial up internet. Yeah. Okay. It was very early to say like 99. We made those first things. Sony gave us a little bit of money and they're like, what can you do with this? I'm like, I don't know. We just all sort of figured it out. We're like, what's legal? And they were like, wow, so we just made a bunch of really renegade shit. And then I tried to sell it a bunch of places. We almost sort of the comedy. And then September 11th happened and they're like, we're just not doing comedy right now. And we tried to sell it. I came at MTV at one point. We even showed it to SNL because we had these little shorts. And I was like, I don't know what the fuck this is, but it's stop-motion toys doing pop culture jokes. I swear this is a thing. And McFarlane told me that adult swim was like buying stuff. And so we wound up having a meeting with the people who've taken that over to Lasso and Keith. And they were like, can you make quarter hours of this? I was like, I don't know what a quarter hour is. They're like, it's 15-minute programming. I was like, yeah, yeah, for sure. And they were like, could you do like 20 of them? We're like, yeah, fuck yeah, of course. And then we did. We just said about doing that. But it was a period of time where all of these other creators were having a similar experience, right? And adult swim was very intentional about getting us all together. Did you guys know that you were created? Because when I was watching adult swim as a kid, I did not understand the humor until I got, oh, it was like this alternative type of humor that is now all like comedy is now. Did you feel like you are a part of something? Or is this like, no, a bunch of weird shoes is just happening? We're doing our own thing. Well, I love comedy. And I've been raised on it and studied it like for as long as I've been aware of those kinds of things. And so I was absolutely aware of the fact that there was a tonality shift. But it had happened through advertising it all through the 90s, right? So the 80s were the end of the 70s like intentional, parental programming. And the 70s These were a result of all of the drugs. experimentation in the 60s where they're like, oh, we gotta teach these kids about life. And so all the stuff that we got in the 80s was heavily PSA'd and like, it's okay to cry. And if you pee in your pants, right, you're gonna move past it. And also like, make sure you eat vegetables and don't cover your shit and sauce. Like, this is real basic. - Don't get in white vans, like look both ways. For like, I'll just like trying to keep you up. - Turns out, creepers are just snatchin' kids. So like, watch out for creepers kids. - Right. - Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. - All of the hard lessons of the 80s got really actualized in the 90s, right? The 90s was the most latch-key era available. Like, parents were just like, I don't fucking know. Do it yourself, right? And so all the, everybody, you're just on your own, right? And you're just on your own. The TV's the thing that's given you information. MTV was at least straight shooters. Like, there was a point where MTV was the news and also all your sociological research. I remember when the real world came out. And it was post-roddenly king. Like, post the OJ, no, real world came out before the OJ trial. But it was just like, we're gonna put this clansman in this room, in this apartment for real. - You watched how real people were talking about it. Like, between music videos, we give you the rage about the shit. And then it would be Kevin Powell. Kevin Powell, who went on to like run for Congress, fucking talking to that chick that was from like Idaho, like two real people having a conversation about some shit getting mad and you're like, Jesus Christ. - But it was before any of those commentators recognized the authority they had on camera. And so the original real world was so interesting, 'cause it was people just doing it. By the time they did the LA real world, everybody had seen the New York real world. And they're like, oh, I'm gonna be this guy, right? And by the time they got to San Francisco, Puck is like, I know how to be the villain on TV. - Right, yeah, there's a performance too. - That became instructive for somebody like Spencer Pratt, who's like, I know how to be the villain on TV. So, I don't know. I've just watched this unfold era after era after era, and the same way with comedy. And so I said to him, sunrise, like when we showed up at Comic Con and there was a room of 2,000 people that loved robot chicken, I was like, we gotta really think about what we're fucking saying. - Yeah, that's my question, my question is this. So when I talk to other creatives and stuff like that, they always talk about the lesson from what it is that they made, doesn't matter what it is. The lesson, like, asked somebody, what's the lesson from this? And it's sometimes a narrative lesson, but sometimes it's a life lesson for them. What's the lesson from robot chicken? - Always follow the audience. The audience is the only thing that matters. We're making it for us, but we have to be making something that we believe is watchable and entertaining. And I got to make a movie and I had to cut it together and there were all these things that I thought were like, really important to say on film. And I'm lucky enough to know John Favreau and be able to occasionally call him for advice aside from like hanging out socially. But even once in a while, I'll call him with like real, like, how the fuck do I do that? Got a question, 'cause he's such an accomplished adult and he's incredibly generous. And he, I told him that I love that, but broke so much. And he said, oh, 'cause he posted it like this. He said, there's incidents where you're gonna make something for you and there's incidents where you're gonna make something for them. There's, you have to weigh the ratio of how much in your thing is for you versus how much is for them. And I was like, well, I've always loved like Albert Brooks, this kind of thing goes, everything in Albert's movies for them, everything, nothing for him. Like he'll say something, but it's for them. And I really, I think about that all the time when we're cutting something, when we're putting something together, I'm like, it's just indulgent. Like, or is an audience that both gets this and that doesn't get this willing to receive it, right? So I'm always thinking about that. - There's something, there's a couple jokes in this special, to me, that remind me of this, where you can see how large the shadow of like Rick and Morty lose. So there's like a joke about that, or like even Tyler the creator being on Loiter Squad, where there's a generation of kids who are like, Tyler creator was on, like it was on adult twins. - That was amazing. So I feel like I'm mad, I don't even know if he was 18. When we met, we met them all at the up front and Laza was like, hey, these are the Loiter Squad, 'cause I was super excited to meet them. Just 'cause like a black sketch group and like doing very modern silly sketches and then also the whole music component, you just have no idea what somebody is until you see all the shit. So I was really excited to meet these kids. All night, I kept trying to like, bro those kids and be like, it was my man, and they were like, I don't fucking know. Like, right, so much, and I realized it now. I was easily in my 30s and they, I don't even know if they were 21 when they were doing it, right? And I think that all of, I remember being young and meeting adults and whenever the adult was like, so what's fucking cracking here, you know? I'm thinking like, I just don't wanna fuck up and say anything right now. So they all kind of cold-shouldered me at the up front. - Oh, no. - Yeah, that's all right, I'm gonna pass it. I'm glad you brought up Rick and Morty actually because like, to see a cast of Shadow, it's like, it's this adult swim show. - Yeah, it is, but it's also, it's from a different moment, right? And like, we, I don't know, we talked a lot about what this special was going to be and what needed to have a presence in it. And we went all over the place. Like, we almost did a Ken Burns style thing. There was like so many different points of access. And as soon as we zeroed in on a cruise, just how the hubris and the potential fallibility of a cruise, right, it was like, here it is. And so then it became about like, who's on the cruise and what is the story and what's our story and knowing that the villains were all gonna get together and like, fuck it, let's have a villain plot, right? And then that not working and that turning into a disaster and we were kind of convinced that we were gonna flip the ship. Everybody loves the Poseidon adventure. Somebody pitched the idea of Mike Tyson fighting Poseidon and we were like, let's fucking do that. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Obviously, since you're a scholar of this stuff, I do wanna ask outside of robot chicken, we're at a point now where it's like, I think the explosion of comic books and the explosion of the stuff that was on robot chicken and adult women's stuff, people are like, is it over? Are people tired of this stuff? When you see Spider-Man or Batman or whatever, like, what are your thoughts of like, 'cause we finally got so much of it. Like, what do you think the future of it is? - It's interesting to see, right? Like, I think we'll always continue to innovate. There's obviously a lot of reflection and new tellings of old, very foundational properties. I think there's room for all of that. I don't expect that we're going to get the Ready Player One experience that we've all seemed to crave, right? Like, other sides not gonna do it. It's maybe fortnight, but the idea of being able to carry your skins into your Amazon online experience, I just don't think there's gonna be such a mass adoption of VR in that way. VR seems to be like the most effective in shared remote experiences, where you can, the same way that you play like Halo or something, where like everybody from all over the world is in the same space, whether you're watching a movie together, a TV show together, or you're like playing a game. I don't know. I feel like if we're just talking about robot chicken, it feels like we've comfortably moved into a place where we could make two specials a year, right? And we could put out a half hour once a year. The DC one, the Cartoon Network one. Well, just the way that we, there's so many, I love being able to really focus on a single property and tell a story within that. And even if it's just a lot of jokes around the universe, like we did with Star Wars, they all started folding into a narrative. So there's narrative all throughout it. That's, we kind of can't help, but wanna tell stories in those universes. So to that end, we can make half hours about anything. - Let me ask you this. So, and this is my last question. As our generation continues to get a little bit older, right? I'm a baby extra, more than 1980. So as we continue to get older, and when you look, Charles brought up He-Man and the fact that He-Man is not something that gets them excited at all, right? So as we age out of being able to sell our nostalgia to their generation, what should be the creative edict of people like us? Of people like us who, in 2005, 2006, 2007, you put this stuff out, you goof on it, you do whatever. It's cool. Do we find new things to do that with? We do, okay. - I mean, with robot, that's like, I've always thought the robot chickens more lifestyle than individual icons. It was always kind of a pledge of allegiance that people seemed to like-- - The kind of thing. - I thought this was funny. This kind of shit is interesting for me. That's, you talk about adult swim being something that pioneered that, or was at least the shepherd of those kinds of messages. We watched the stuff that I was raised on, Monty Python, SNL, Carol Burnett, OG sketch shit that just tried it all, just I can soupy sales, right? Because I came from, because I was in entertainment as a child, all of my, like I studied as a kid and watched all of them. that they came before me, just to see how it was done. And I liken all of it to the X games, right? There was a point where nobody was even trying to do a 360 on a fucking bicycle. And now you have people doing like 300 foot flips, legs off, separate from the bike like Red Bull's profile now. - Yes, the fact that something like Red Bull exists to continue to inspire, these games exist to like make people think, well, how can I do it better, stronger, faster, more accomplished? Like, the reason we declare something like the '80s, the greatest is it was just a point of innovation that sort of showed people like, you're allowed to do this, right? If there wasn't all the innovation in the '80s, you wouldn't have even gotten something like the Judgment Night soundtrack, right? Like you wouldn't have had-- - Wow. - What was it to pull? 'Cause it was the first time that a very commercial company was like, yeah, fuck it, we'll try Fusion rap, right? Maybe if you hadn't had walked this way, right? Like, rap and rock being like, no, we're all making music. I don't know. - You get collision course, Jay-Z and Lincoln Park. - Classic. - Do you still love it all as much as you did when you were a kid, like all these cartoons, all the stuff, 'cause it's your job now. - Well, yeah, there was an interesting thing, right? Where like, as a toy lover, I've held every grail that ever stood ahead of me. - Talking about Castle Graysco. - All of it, like I've held the original paint, like the lead molds of the rock and firing boba fat. You're just like, oh, no, I guess I touched that, right? And you, I don't know, it's not that it loses any meaning. I still have a passion for all these stories and I love seeing that inspiration in the eyes of the audience. But the stuff that gets me excited, it's different, right? Like I went to San Diego this year and after I did all of my work fair, I got to spend an hour just walking the fucking floor. And you know, if I'm not with a fanlinks of security guards, I've got a hat, I'm short. I just look like a creep, right? If I have a backpack on, nobody will talk to me. So that's pretty cool. I saw Matt graining out on the floor too. I go, hey, you don't even have a fucking hat on. And he was like, I just look like an old guy. Another vest, no, Seth Green, bro. Thank you so much for stopping by the show, man. My pleasure. Oh, yeah. Yes, your honor. What is it, Jordan? Jordan's a jerk. Yeah. Yeah. [MUSIC PLAYING]