Mick Jagger

[Music] Hi, I'm Mick Jagger and um. [Music] I've been rather anxious about being cone of Ryan's friends. It's a heavy thing. It is and we're in an enclosed, very small space together. [Music] [Music] Hey there. Welcome to Conan O'Brien needs a friend. I'm not with the gang today. No Sona, no Gourley, no Blay, no Eduardo. I'm pretty much on my own. Why you ask? Because I got a phone call just a couple of days ago. And I'm in Los Angeles. And the question was, would you like to come to London to interview one of the most famous people in the world? And I really thought about it. It was a tough call. Because I have my Pilates class. I take a Lamaz class even though I don't know anyone who's pregnant. I just go there and I've been asked to leave. I have my yogurt regimen. But I said, no, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it because this is the thrill of a lifetime. So I jumped on a plane. And I am now in London in a very small podcast studio that's often alley. And I'm excited because I'm talking to just. A phenomenal force in my life. And I think in many people's lifetime. And this is bucket list for me. Now I'm going to reveal who it is. Now, if Gourley were here or Son of the D laugh and say, no, it's. The episode is marked with the person's name. People already know you're being stupid. But I'm old-fashioned. And so I'm going to pretend you don't know who I'm talking about. My guest today is a rock and roll legend and cultural icon who has spent six decades as the frontman of one of the greatest rock bands of all time, the Rolling Stones. Their new album, "Foreign Tongues" is out now. I love this album. And I think you have to check it out. It's amazing. This guy's amazing. I'm absolutely honored that he is joining me today. Mick Jagger. Welcome. A couple of weeks ago, I was traveling around the world shooting my travel show. And I heard you're going to get a phone call from Mick Jagger. Now, we had met briefly backstage at the Oscars, but we didn't really know each other. The next thing I know, you're calling me. And we're having a chat about this event you asked me to do in Brooklyn to help launch. It's the press launch of the new album, "Foreign Tongues." And it was a great day for me because I'm a massive fan. Of course, I said yes. I asked for money. They said there's no money. They said there's no money, that's. There was nothing. There was no money. That's terrible. Yeah. And I said, I'm just. I do apologize for that. I thought I was paying hundreds of thousands of doing this. Yeah, yeah. It's like going right. Yeah, exactly. I would have said, "Are you going right, is?" I was like Chuck Berry. I wanted $100,000 in a big cash before I went on. And so it was a fantastic experience. And I got to be with you, Keith Ronnie. Yes. Now, I don't think I had met Ronnie before. He's a lovely guy. Yes, he is. Tells a lot of very bad jokes. Terrible jokes. And he's. The only worst joke, Terri is Bill Wyman, but who's not in the band anymore, but he could be co-opted to tell his terrible jokes. Versus Ronnie. Ronnie versus Bill, they're terrible jokes. Just awful. And at one point, and it's Ronnie Wood, he's a legend and a lovely guy. A legendary comedian. But at one point, I said, Ronnie, you've got to stop. And I had known him an hour at that point. But we had a lovely time. And I had some observations about that day, which is leading up to it. And when I had several phone calls, you were really going over all the details. And then when we got to the event at one point, you were looking out at the audience to check them. And I looked back, I looked back at Keith, and I said, was this Mick in 1962? And he said, yes. And this, I get the sense that in a way you've always been the organizer, the manager, the guy who's keeping it together. Is that a fair thing to say? I guess so. Sometimes I was called a control freak, but I'm not a control freak at all. I like to delegate the thing about doing this kind of thing is you delegate these big jobs. I never organized that thing that we did not really. But what did I do? I approved the place. I thought that you would be a great person to do it. And were you disappointed? I was so happy. It went off really well. It was great fun. It was great fun. You had Keith's microphone technique. I was worried the minute they gave you guys hand-held microphones at this event in Brooklyn. You think, well, that can get dodgy. And then Keith did a thing where the microphone was by his mouth. And when I'd ask him a question, he would start to answer. And the microphone would drift away from his mouth until the point where I was. He's still holding it. This is not drifting away in the air on his own. No, no, no. He's holding it, but his arm is drifting away from his body. But we got a laugh out of it. It was fun. He was lovely. But I did get the sense that. I didn't see control freak when I saw you, but I saw someone who is very interested in the details. Yeah. This is looking through to see. Well, you know, I'd seen the room empty, but you've got to see the room full. What kind of people are there? How many people are there? What does the room feel like? I think that's important. I'm sure you, when you go on and do things with a live audience, you want to feel the room. A little bit. You do want to feel the room because how your behavior would be, you know, how the audience is going to react. I mean, so I think all that sort of stuff is really important. What surprised me very first time at you, you mentioned the Oscars. I don't know if you remember, but you came up behind me and I'm looking at my notes. What do I have to do next? We're halfway through the show and I feel someone jabbing me in the back saying, "Has a crowd, has a crowd, has a crowd." And kind of a funny American accent, "Has a crowd, has a crowd." And I turn around and it's you and I said, "Mick, you don't care how the crowd is. You're Mick Jagger and you said, "Oh, I do." Yeah. Because anyone else in the world who's not you would say, "What's he worried about?" People are delighted to see you. You're the. Yeah, you're not worried about it, but you want information because you're only on that. You're on the whole show. Good like, good like. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's a difficult job. And you have to roll with the punches and there's all kinds of weird things happening at the Oscars. People jump on stage and punch people. Who knows? Who knows what's going to happen? I mean, I'm a presenter, you know, which is the lowest category of people appearing on the Oscars. And usually they read something off the teleprompter, which is just not funny. Yeah. And it's not interesting. And they're obviously reading it. And then they're, you know, just isn't. So I just rewrote all the stuff they asked me to say. And I wanted to make it into something that was. Well, my words. Organic to you. Yeah, it's a personal to me, you know. Yeah. So all these little things you do, you know, because the good thing about it was I'd done a rehearsal. So you all kinds of the stage. And they're weird, also weird. They have the very famous people in Carball Cutouts. Remember that in the rehearsal? Yes. So there's the Timothy Shalema cutout he's just in front of you. So I was going to make a Bob Dylan reference. So I knew that he was there because he's. I'm staring at the Carball Cutout of him. Scarlett Johnson's there. Yeah, yeah. Well, ever, ever. So that was good to do the rehearsal, which was about five minutes. Yeah. And then. Then I shared what was not a dressing room, was an office, didn't have any dressing room things with. Neil Young, who wasn't on the show. And then. He just hangs out and dressing rooms. And I said, "You just hanging out and I going, that's no young." Over in this office, I hung out. And I rehearsed Darryl Hanna, who was also a presenter. Yeah. Oh, there you go. There you go. That was the deal. So Darryl Hanna, Neil Young and I shared on office. That's so funny how you've achieved this level that's hard to comprehend where I would think. You can be very much in control of what you want to do and how you want to do it. Whenever I see footage of the early stone shows when you've really guys have hit and you're in Denmark, you're trying to perform. Kids are running up on stage and you're singing and people are jumping on your back. Girls are jumping on you and so half of your time is spent getting out of a headlock. Yeah. While singing. Yeah, while singing and dancing. And dancing. Or at the same time. Yeah. Those are the days. Do those moments occur to you now, every now and then? Because things are so locked down now in a great way. Yeah. But those early days were just so chaotic. There was no. The thing wasn't in those days there wasn't any organization for these concerts. and the organization was minimal, there was no really security. So if there was security, it was the local police. And the local police had no experience of a concert audience. They'd probably never done it before. And in some places, we used to play like the West Coast in little places. And the police would come out and there would be like 14-year-old girls and they'd bang them on the heads with their night sticks. That was their solution. And it's like, we took care of it. These could be your daughters. Yeah. Maybe they are. Bang. And it was the same in Europe. Yeah. I mean, they would just throw them out of the door bodily. I mean, it was just chaotic. Yeah. The thing that strikes me, which has changed so much, not to embarrass you, but you reach this iconic level where if someone were to make a short list of who are the greatest entertainers of the 20th, early 21st century, and I'm including everybody, you're an Al Jolson, Michael Jackson. You're on the very, very short list of this iconic performer. I want to see Al Jolson and Michael Jackson as a duo. (laughing) Al Jolson, like, "Oh, let me, my shirt." And then Moonwalk's right past him. Moon, exactly. That's a good one. But you know, you're in this position and the press, I don't think people today understand how hostile the media was towards all pop groups. But then specifically, they just decided and it was kind of a press creation. Rolling stone, they're bad. They're punks before punks. They were bad. Rolling stone is bad, dirty. Rolling stones, you know, scary. Shouldn't be allowed. And yeah, I mean, that's just a press stuff. But people were actually, obviously, people were really welcoming in most places. But there was a group that were really not welcoming. But they maybe didn't know who you were, but they were just shout names at you, they didn't know you were. They were just shout names. So it was very polarised in a kind of modern way. Just the look of you, which, when you look at the pictures, it's pretty normal. It's tame now. Very tame. But in those days, it wasn't. So it's hard to, that's why it's so hard to imagine. Because we look pretty normal. And, you know, but not for those people, especially in the US, when we first went in there, like say '64, in the outside of New York and LA, that was, that was, we were like freaks for them. Yeah. It was also, I was always careful in my comedy career. A new band would come up or a new performer who looked strange and my writers would say, let's make fun of that person, I would say. I do not want to be, because this footage doesn't age well. If this person goes on to be iconic, and this is when, you know, bands were coming on my show for the first time, the either first TV experience would be a no doubt or a green day. And I'm glad that I was welcoming and didn't make any jokes because they would look so stupid now. In the 1960s, all performers decided that these long haired freaks from England were a passing fad. They had no conception that this was going to be the music that dominated people's lives for the next 60 years. They didn't know. So they knew that. Ed Salomon did do it. Ed Salomon did do anything really. He was a different kind of person. But I don't think Ed Salomon knew that he got good ratings. Because when the Beatles went on, Ed Salomon thought of the Beatles, that he got great ratings when they went on. So he knew what you're saying. It's an appointment making fun of them, because who knows what's going to happen. But I mean, there were a lot of exceptions. There were talk show people say, maybe local, I can't remember all their names now. Like Mike Wallace. They were willing to have serious conversations with you. They respected you a bit more. Though others did not. And you didn't do that show. Yeah. It's just interesting now. I don't think people today understand nothing they should. But the environment that you guys were in in 64 or 65 or 66, actually all through most of the 60s. It was a hostile environment, particularly in America. I'm not only America. I mean, we're not blaming America for being that only. There were hostile in England. There was a hostility. But America was not really ready for this stuff. Really, they were. And obviously things changed. I mean, it didn't take long when you think about it in years. Like you said, 64 by 66, it was changed a lot. So two or three years, it just changed. There are a lot of singers or entertainers that get to this point in their career. And they get very nostalgic. And they start singing or writing a lot about their childhood or looking back. And what I find interesting is you do not strike me as an nostalgic writer. You're very interested in what's happening right now. I think that's a, and I say that in a very positive way. When I listen to foreign tongues, there's no really looking back. This is music that you made for someone to listen to in 2026-27. And there's no leaning on this vast history that you have. Is that fair to say? Yeah, that's true. That's not really, I don't really do that. I mean, I'm quite happy to talk about, like we just talked about. Yeah. You know, the early days. The early days of going to the United States or going to Holland or Denmark or whatever we talked about. I'm quite happy to remember that if I can, it's hard. It's so long ago. It's hard to really remember. But no, I mean, I'm not drawing. In this foreign tongues album, literally, I'm not drawing on nostalgia. Or, I mean, obviously you're drawing on past experiences, but though it might be recent past experiences, there could be any, but they're not referred back. And musically speaking, every time Andy, what the producer would, make a producer's always like references. So, which is our stab, because you go like, this is a bit like this song you did previously. It's to explain to the musicians their relatability to the song. Yeah. It's a bit, think of it a bit like this, you know. And then that's fine. But then I said to Adam, but don't, don't make references musically. Don't, there was one track, I think, Mr. Charm. And at the end of it, he said, well, he could be a bit more like jumping jack fashion. And I said, no, I just not like anything like that. And I don't want you to refer to it. And we didn't have an argument about it. So I said, just don't make it like that. We're not going to encourage anyone to overdub guitars like that. And so I didn't want any references to that, if you know me. So, and I've heard that Paul McCartney's record has some of this that you're talking about. I haven't yet got round to listening to it. I apologize, Paul. I will do because Ben talked about a lot. And I've heard it's very good, but I haven't listened to it yet. So, now in the old days, would you have gotten a track by the Beatles or a competitor right away and listen to it? Listen to that record, you make it good? Yeah, probably. You're beyond all that now. Well, I mean, I just, don't not be on the, I just keep forgetting. I'm being so busy. I just keep forgetting to listen to it. Yeah. I've been running around doing promotion. Sure. And I just haven't been listening to current music very much. I could sing it to you. I've been listening to it. I'm ready. How's it going? What's the lead track? What's it called? What's it called? Do you remember what it's called? I don't remember. What's that called? Come on. No, he's, what is it? Dungeon Alley? Dungeon Alley? I've heard this. This is, this is, I've heard the title. Yeah. What is that referred to? I think it's a street in Liverpool that was like an alley that led down to. So, he's singing about Liverpool. He's looking back. So, on Hany Diamonds, on the track called "Hole Wide World", I did refer back a little bit to student digs days and everything. But there was a pretty oblique reference. But it was there. There was two lines about it. Listening to the album, you mentioned Mr. Charm. So, I'm going to bring this up. I don't think any singer does attitude better than you. It's so interesting because I will do another reference. But Mr. Charm, I get some of the, there's not a reference. But some of the delicious kind of almost oily disdain that you can hear in, like, simply for the devil. There's a little bit of, there's this great attitude. And you do it in, I'm a big fan of the show, "Slow Horses". You do the theme song. Yeah. I love the attitude that you possess and inhabit when you're singing that song. Which one, you, to Mr. Charm? Well, Mr. Charm, but also the slow, the slow, the slow horse's theme. Yeah. Which is, you know, it, it, it's very kind of almost burlesque. But it's called Strange Game. Strange Game. Yeah. I think I saw you want to. said in an interview that yes, the lyrics are important, but really it's the sound. And you have this, I can tell you think a lot about what is this going to sound like, because some very strange things in like duop music sounded great, but when you look at what it says, it's just absolute rubbish, and it's the sound. And I think of so many stones records and so many of your vocalizations as it's a great shattered, and on this record, there's a great attitude and a sound to what you are singing that I think adds a lot to the lyrics. I think in attitudes, though, it's acting really, because you're taking on the character of the song. And when you do a love song, say like back in your life, the jilted lover, you're playing the jilted lover. So obviously that's happened to you before, but that's a whole different attitude. It's a different person. So when you come to do, I mean, it's easier in the recording studio because you don't have to do them one after another. Yeah. And on stage, you don't have to switch personas quickly. You go from simply to a battle to a ballad, whatever, but you don't do that. You almost want to screen to come down for a second, so you can inhabit. You want to inhabit another space. So when you get into a song in the studios, but remember, you haven't done that song that many times. Yeah. You might have done a demo of it in that case. In this case, I missed a charm. I did a demo. So I wasn't like walking into doing a song that I didn't know. I knew it, but I had to make it much better than the demo. Right. And I rewrote the lyrics and everything. And then you start to get into the character of this and lucky that song, there's two attitudes. There's the verse attitude where you're trying to be beguiling. And then there's the chorus attitude where you're kind of throwing something else away, you know, saying life's too short, just make money on the one. So it's a slightly different attitude. Then you come back to the verse where you're then, you know, throwing sort of these kind of scattered gun images out, you know, in what you hope is a kind of interesting way. I listened to this album. I listened to it a bunch because I really like it. And I noticed that, yes, I can see, obviously you guys famously started as a blues band, but there's blues in here. There's rock and roll. There's also country. Again, I think you've always been interested in many different genres of kind of music. And I was very interested in the country aspect of the album because I know that. If I didn't know any better, I think country couldn't have been an influence, but it was an influence. Well, country was a huge influence from. Well, I think on every, most English musicians of that period, don't forget these songs were also a lot of these kind of songs were big hits. They were like top 10 hits, as they were in the US, you know, but you know, people like Eddie Arnold or all these people. They had huge hits. They were pop hits, even though there were country songs. And then you got onto people like George Jones and they were played on the radio. So this wasn't obscure, you know, the blues was more obscure. These were hits. The Evidence Brothers were country. Yeah. I mean, really? Yeah. I mean, they were pop, but they were still country and Johnny Cash. Johnny Cash had a number one record with a battle of a teenage queen. So as soon as you heard that and you liked Johnny Cash, you would explore more Johnny Cash and you'd realize that he was a country singer. This was he realized when you listened to 1954 Elvis Sunsession, it's a click and a half away from country. It's rockabilly. Yeah. But if you slowed it down a little bit, the instrumentation, it's so close to country. So close, but he was covering rhythm and blues songs all the time. I mean, of course, he did stand as like Blue Moon in those cuts in the same period we're talking about. Obviously, these songs like that's the right mama, which is I think the first one he did. He did first one, yeah. And that was a R&B song and then he did Howndog that was an R&B song. They're all, these are all R&B songs. So even though we say, yeah, he's so country, he was covering R&B in a kind of slightly different country way. Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm not a great Elvis student, but I mean, I love it. I know it wasn't what, but did he really do country music as we know it? No, probably more gospel. He loved gospel. Yes. Gospel, he did. Love gospel, but you can see that you're right. Those early influences, I think it's a, it's a gumbo. There's country is part of his makeup, but much more so gospel, rhythm and blues. Yes. You never met him. Did you meet Elvis? No, I never met Elvis. That's incredible to me. You know why? I tell you why. In New Mirror, an English tabloid, the Sterexist, you did publicity with the Daily Mirror and the Beatles did it. There was a Chobas Jonas, I can't remember his name, very famous at the time. And he took the Beatles in Los Angeles to visit with Elvis. And there's pictures of this. So they went to Elvis' house and his pool. And they walked in and he was playing bass. Watching TV, playing bass. But they were all high. The Beatles were high and none of them have their story straight. None of them can remember anything. I don't remember anything. I remember John telling me, you know, you know, should never meet your heroes. I would never meet Elvis make it for you. That's fascinating. And so I didn't. I took John's of Fies. Yeah. It was really stupid of me really. I loved him. Always. Why I take John's of Fies. But I mean at the time, yeah, it seemed to ring. Well, exactly. You know, he famously in the 64 tour, he kept saying the minute they got to America, John kept saying, where's Elvis? Where's Elvis? Where's Elvis? That's the only person he wanted to meet. Then they met Elvis. And in Bel Air at his house, John walked out and said, where's Elvis? Because that was not the guy he wanted to meet. He disappointed him. Yeah. And he told me that all this story, more than once. Yeah. And so it all put me off. So I wanted to keep my Elvis to myself, my version of Elvis. Yeah. And so I didn't want my version of Elvis shattered like John's was. Yeah. But maybe my Elvis version would have been different. Well, I have to tell you, I've always wanted to sit and talk with you and this is a massive disappointment. Yeah, I can imagine is. Here we are. Stuck in this little tiny room in West London. I'm going to even go, where's Mick Jagger? And yeah. And I was enjoying being in Casablanca. This is crap. I did have a good time in Casablanca. And there's something about this album, Foreign Tongues. I was thinking, you're not nostalgic. I can feel an urgency. There's a sense that you guys got into the studio. I know you made it very quickly. And what I'm very impressed by is it almost feels like you've got something to prove, which you don't. That's how it feels. A lot of these songs really feel like you're having a great time, but let's get this shit and get it right. Is that fair? Yeah, fair. I mean, that's that's how most operandi for when we did Hackney Diamonds. Yeah. It was a way of working. So the previous way, the bands obviously had a lot of ways of working in a studio. And when we did Hackney Diamonds, that was a different way of doing it. And it was like, OK, we've got these songs. We've got them prepped a bit, at least they're done. We're not writing songs in the studio, which a lot of bands do. We used to do. If something comes up in the studio, fantastic. And this might change. This song may change completely and utterly, but you have an idea. And we're going to play through them. We're not going to hang around. We're not going to wait. We're not going to play them all day. We're going to do them for a couple of hours and we're going to move on to the next one. And then if we'll come back the next day, we might do it again. We'll come back next week and do it again. So we're always moving ahead or we're always plowing ahead. So there's no time for too much self analysis of whether it's the songs any good, whether the performance is any good. We'll find out because when it's all finished, we'll listen to them all. You know, and see, what have we got after we've done for weeks? What have we got left? Well, it was good. Which of your favorites? Which ones? Do you know what I mean? You don't like? Does this all stand up? Because we want to set the bar high. Sure. We're going to have, we said in Hatton-Johm, is this what we don't want any filler. We want to set the bar high. So every track has to have something special about it. Okay. You might be your favorites, but that means so that the other ones don't have something to say. Well, rough and twisted. I love in the stars. Obviously, you guys knew we've got something really great here. Yeah. Love the video. Yeah. That's pretty serious. That's fantastic. You guys sort of reimagined as your younger cells, and it's great. It's fantastic. It was only AI or the faces. Yeah. Everything else is real. And you told me that at one point they got a little screwed up because you thought, "Rani would doesn't look right." Their young, young you looks great, young Keith looks great. They made sort of, they tried to make a faces era, Ronnie would. No, I said to, I said to, we were talking with this, the lady that I'm working with on the video. So they're doing this AI that, and I said, "Stop it at 318." I said, "I'll talk to her." Just, we're on Zoom. I said, "Stop it at 318." I said, "That's Jeff Beck." (laughing) Ronnie, that's not your guy. Your guy is, he's referring to Joe, he's got the wrong, 'cause the thing was, the thing was, the thing was that Ronnie was in a band with Jeff Beck. - Yes. - So then I've gone back to this footage and said, "I don't, please don't bother me about this. I know exactly who these people are." And he got, and he looked exactly like Jeff Beck. So we had Jeff Beck in the band for a minute there. That was interesting. So I said, "Now you've got a chance to do Ronnie." Because the Keith and I images were taken from sympathy for the devil, mostly. It's not quite that simple. - Was it Gaudard who made the movie? - He made a movie. - Of course, some are famous. The famous French film director. - Yeah, French film director. And I know at the time he were thinking, why is he shooting us creating, and now it's a great document. - Yeah, it's the only one like that. Is there anyone who exists from the '60s? - You know what's another great piece of footage is there's this great footage of you and Keith. You've just come back from recording and muscle shows. You go into a room, I'm sure you've seen this. You walk into a room and you've got the demo for I think it's Brown Sugar. - Yeah. - You put it on and you're listening to it. It's not out yet, but you're listening to it. And you see you start to, both of you start to groove to this thing and you start strutting around the room and you have the same reaction that later on everybody's gonna have, which is this is a great track. But it's you guys hearing it for the first time. - Yeah, you're hearing the rough mix or something. - Yeah, and it's. - Is that gonna be sheltered by the mazer brothers? - Yeah, yeah. - It's just a great moment. You as a fan of the Rolling Stones. - Yeah, I can be that. - Yeah. - I can also be there, severe, critical. - Is that true? - Well, you kind of have to be sometimes, you know. I mean, and sometimes you're wrong. You know, you can be very wrong, 'cause you're not very good to Chrissy Kavir. One is not a good critic of one's own work really. But you know, you are the first person to hear it after all in reality. - I have to ask you, I mentioned this, we talked in Brooklyn, but I have to bring it up. Your voice sounds as good as ever. There are times where I think it's better than ever. It defies logic, but I know that you are an extremely disciplined guy about your health and taking care of yourself. But you listen to this album and I think this is a 28 year old singer. It's really amazing. - Well, that's funny. - That's funny. - It's so that. - And you're doing falsetto stuff. - Oh, that's fun. - That's fun, tons. - That's pretty easy. - I find that kind of easy. That's not, I mean, people have given me lots of confidence about that. And to be honest, that's the, and I appreciate the kindness, but that some of the other songs much more difficult than that one's relatively easy to do. I learned falsetto was singing very early on in the Stone's career when I listened to Don Covey, who was a soul singer, and he was singing his song called Have Mercy. Don Covey also wrote Chain of Fools for a reason, - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. - He was a songwriter as well. And I met him a few occasions. Anyway, but on his song Have Mercy, he sings only in falsetto. So then I copied that and we covered that song. I mean, I'm sure my version is useless compared to her. I was practicing, but that kind of falsetto singing is relatively easy, because you never change from falsetto back into a regular voice. That's the difficult thing to do. The different thing is going in and out of falsetto. - Yes, yes. - So I can't really do that very well. The person that does that really is the old green. So if you listen to the old green, and I was last month, I was put on this old green record and I hadn't heard it for a while. And I said, I was analyzing what he was doing with his vocal. And he was, so he's going falsetto and then he's going back in the same line, he's going back to his regular voice and then he's going back falsetto. And I said, okay, I see. So I've got to do that too. I've to learn how to do that. And so I just sang along with our green trying to do it. I mean, it's not easy, but it's possible. - I learned this a long time ago, which is very few people sort of in your caliber, but I remembered once getting to see Bruce Springsteen, the East Street Band perform. And then I got taken backstage 'cause my drummer for years, Max Weinberg, his Bruce's drummer, he took me backstage and I got to hang out with Bruce a little bit just after the show. And he at one point had been trying to, it'd been singing in this falsetto. And I said, that was great. I love that part. And I didn't realize you could do that. And he said, yeah, I'm really working on it. And I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. And I thought, this is fascinating. I see the same thing with you. Everyone else would assume that you've got nothing left to try, but of course you do. - That was the things you can do. - And you are still thinking, yeah, I'm going to listen to this Al Green record and okay, what's he doing here? And I want to work on that. - Yeah, because I haven't mastered that. - So in the studio, so I do it like a song like "Gelos Lava." - Yeah, yeah. - So I can sing the falsetto part in the verse first and then the chorus is in full voice and then delay it with lots of harmonies that I did. Infulsetto and full voice. But then I'm not really doing now. Green thing, I'm doing one set infulsetto and one set in full voice. - Yeah. - So I mean, it's not cheating. That's just the way I like it. - But I do think there's something about, we all have our heroes. It's your attempt to be your hero that fails. But in the failing of being exactly like the person you idolize, you create something. - Yes, you're right. - And you come out. - Yeah, and I think-- - And I think-- - And I think-- - Be that. I mean, you're right. - You guys were listening to Blues and saying, "We want to do that." And it's of course it's different. You're from Dirkford. - Yeah, exactly. - It's going to be different. - I can't be howling wolf, you know? - Yeah, but you do have, I'm never tried to sound like, I don't have nobody. Nobody sounds like how, not even, I've never heard anyone. But yeah, you're absolutely right. You, why are you copying people? Are you creating something new? - You know, we were talking about how so much has changed. One of the things that this first wave of pop stars in the '60s faced was, well, you can't be doing this when you're not in your 20s. Once you're, you know, once you're 28, 29, this is for young kids to do. You can't be doing this. There's a great clip I saw. It's backstage. It might be Madison Square Garden. I think it's late '60s. Dick Cavitt's talking to you and he said, "You think you'll be doing this when you're 60?" And he said, "And you have a cane?" And you said, "Sure." You said, "Marlene Dietrich is still out there." And she's amazing. And I thought that's such a great answer because I think the standard answer then was, "Well, of course not, of course not." But you said, "Why not?" - Yeah. - "Why not?" - Well, yeah, there had been, I mean, see, the thing about rock music is it's always associated with youth. It's the music of rebellious youth, so to speak. And I mean, most rock bands are young and you want there to be young rock bands and, you know, it sort of comes and goes and there's been a slight revival of it now. But you thought that that, once you're out of the flush of youth, you wouldn't continue, but rock music kind of evolved, I suppose, in a way as well. And it also remained the popular music with the same group, with it, that were in that you're same age group, they still liked it. So they didn't move on to some other music, they might have moved on, but they still kept a thing for their youth, you know? - Yeah. - So, and you want, obviously, so, but, yeah, I don't know. I mean, there were people, I mean, Frank Sinatra was still a big star and he was, when he was old, but it's a different kind of music. You don't need quite so much energy to do Frank Sinatra as you need to do the sex pistols. I mean, you, or the Ramones, or to do hit me in the head. - What I think, I mean, I can't, I'm hurt, press to think of anybody who expands more energy on stage still, as you, you're in constant motion. I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that for 15 minutes, let alone a two hour plus show. So, you know, I, the stamina that you have, I know your work at it. I'm wondering, does any of that come from the fact that your dad was a gymnast and a physical fitness guide? Did you think that you grew up a little bit with that? Like, I gotta take care of myself. - Yeah, yeah. You kept telling me you have to take care of yourself. You know, if you don't, okay, say yourself, you're gonna be, and you point at someone like who is 55 who fatten, smoking and not, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You'd be like your uncle, so and so. - Yeah, yeah. - And, you know, you don't wanna be like that. - I'm saying, no, no, I don't. - Yeah, but it goes in, you know, when you're young, that coat that sticks with you. So, yeah. - I would have been, I don't know, 12 years old, I think, when Elvis turned 40, and the national inquire was just vicious. - Yeah. - About Elvis turning 40, because he was the real first wave of rock roll. - Yeah, absolutely. - So he's, you know, he's another generation older than you guys, and he was the first one to get, isn't this absurd that this man is still doing this at 40, which now, he thinks about that. - Nobody was in a very good shape. - Now, he was. - He was. - That was the thing. I mean, and then he got back in shape. He can't, he did a great comeback, he looked amazing, but for a while, why was such a. figure of fun. I'm not saying the National Inquire over is the paper of record, but why he was, everyone used to take the mech out of him was because he did get overweight and he did, and he obviously wasn't in a very fit. And, and, and he wasn't very old. I mean, this is all, and how old was him when he died? He was 42. Yeah, you know, which we now we can set a quite young for him. Well, this is how screw up things are, I was in high school when I would have been 17, 16 or 17 when my sister Kate knocked on the door and she opened the door. It was in the morning in 1980 and she told me John Lennon was shot and died. And I was lying in bed and I said, what? And she said, yes. And I said, how old was he? And she said 40. And I said, well, at least he had a long life. That's what I said. Now I am 63 now. I don't think 40 is a long life. I don't 60, I don't think 63 is a long life, but that was my perspective then. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Just insane. Yeah. Well, today, I know this is not going out until later, but David Holtney just died. Yeah. And he was creating experimental art. He was 87 years old. And he never stopped. Never stopped. He never stopped. Not just repeating himself. He didn't repeat himself. That was the great thing. He just carried on trying different things and trying different ways of expressing himself. And the four and tons albums at you? I mean, he was amazing. And 87. I mean, he was still painting this year. I have to ask you, is the harmonica that I hear on the four and tons albums at you? Yeah. It's okay. Roni plays Almonica, but he does play on this album. Well, also there's a great quote, a Keith quote, Keith is a huge admirer of your harmonica playing. And he said that is that's the, that's the, you know, there are many, Mick can assume many forms. That is, he always felt your harmonica playing was the key into that's the core Mick Jagger. That's the Apple logo that comes up when you've turned on the computer for the first time. Yeah, you want harmonica. Do you think that's close to something true? It's kind of true, but the thing is, you know, I think in a funny way, the harmonica is an extension of the voice, you know, because it's a blown instrument and you're making your wah, wah, you know, it's a voice extension thing. So I think it's a for a vocalist, it's a good extension of a voice, you know, so a natural instrument of a voice. Of course, what I like doing is playing punk guitar. So that's what I really like doing. So, so do you ever do open tunings? Who do you just do? I do both, yeah. But when I do the slashing indie guitars, it's all six strings and Ronnie and Keith, those sort of look at me, but I do it anyway. I don't watch you on the guitar every thing. But they've sort of learned to put up with it. Yeah, they've learned to put up with it. And you know, I love doing it because, come on, no, it's harder than that. You know, it's like this. You know, because on some of these fast songs, it's like, you know, like hit me in the head and all that. That's it's really slamming, you know, you have to really slam it. I'm not saying Ronnie and Keith don't slam it because they do. But when I've written something like that, I think I always want to be on it, you know, I always want to be playing guitar on it. So that's why I get, I mean, I love playing harmonica too. The harmonica thing was great on the Amy Winehouse song because I played the harmonica. The home parts on the Amy original, I played on harmonica. So, which is a home part. So I played that harmonica. That was a good opportunity. Do you write exclusively on guitar or do you also sit at the piano? I do piano and guitar. piano and guitar. Piano guitar. Sometimes I just sing to drum machines. Just anything. No instrument. Just me singing. Do you find that like you've got to do it early in the morning because I know there are not height doing things early in the morning. I think I know the morning is breakfast and read the newspaper. Uh-huh. That's it. Many people have been asking, is there going to be a tour for foreign tongues? And I selfishly would want that because I want to hear these songs live and I know you're going to get me a ticket. Yeah. You guys are saying probably not right away. But what do you think? Do you think it'll be maybe any year? Is it possible or it's hard to say? It's possible. I think I'd love to do it too because I think there's a lot of songs on this album that would translate into live really good. But, Harry said that you can't really do that many new songs if you do a stadium shows. The audience is not that accepting. Accepting of them. You know, they want to hear what they're familiar. Can you clock that when you're trying something new? When you see people head for the bathroom. You can't. Yeah. You do. You'll get used to it. You'll like it. Honestly, you'll like it. Yeah. But you must have felt that when you were singing some of, I mean, there were many times in your life where you were singing new tracks. Of course. But no one, you know, Lex Eppel and had to play stairway to the heaven for the first time at one point on Long Island. And people were like, what is this shit? Yeah, right. It's always the first time. But then, yeah, the more confident you get, the more you just, we're doing it, you know, but there's still a limit to how many you can do out percentage wise. So you can see someone headed to the bathroom. Sometimes I can. I don't concentrate on that. I would only concentrate on it. When someone I'm talking and people head into the bathroom, it's all I can think about. And they often, that's when they use the bathroom. I heard you talk about David Bowie once. I think it was when we were having dinner and you were talking about a David Bowie at one point and you said an interesting thing, which is we were competitive, but we were also good friends. That's a very hard thing to maintain. But I think you did, you guys did that beautifully. Yeah. We were competitive. David was so competitive. I was made competitive by David. I mean, how so? How so? Well, he was just so competitive that I had to be competitive back, you know, but he would do, I mean, I mean, he went through up here. David went through all these different, yes, you know, iterations, iterations of David. There isn't one David Bowie. There's kind of like a slowly evolving David Bowie. There's jump cuts of, you know, to another David Bowie. Yeah. Another style. Then he's the thin white Duke. Yeah. You know, when he was doing like Gene Genie, he was very stonzy, you know, yes, that was very stonzy period. And so he would come over and play me Gene, Gene, you know, I've got to listen. I see. Yeah, of course. I said, God, he knicked all my things. Yeah, no, man. I know. It's like a homage to you. It's a homage. Yeah. Sure. But yeah, yeah, we're good. I think John and I were very competitive too. John Lennon. But we're more competitive in being sarcastic. Yes. The verbal competitiveness. Have you ever seen the video of him and Bob Dylan in the back of the limous. Yes. I love that. I love that because Bob Dylan is not in good shape. They're in the back of a Rolls Royce drive around London. I think in 65, John's got that acid wit. We say, come, come, boy, come, come. You do suffer from scraggly forehead. And you know, he's he's he turns it into an aspirin ad because he's doing can't pull it together. No, that's what that's very much like John that that you guys get along. Yeah, we go really got long. But I mean, that was John at his most, you know, he's been very sarcastic with Bob, you know, Bob's not really coming back with the zingy answers. No, no, he's impaired and he's he's not, yeah, that it does give you good illustration in because most of the other things you see of John are kind of like short and that's kind of an extended sarcasm. Yes. So that was him all the time. No, not all the time. He could be sweet. Of course, he could be lovely. Yeah. And um, but you know, he's one of these people that if you says something stupid, he pick you up, you know, you, you, see it right. He'd clock it right away, right away. You know, yeah, but he he was very competitive about, he wasn't competitive about anything else. Mm hmm. You mean just you think he was most competitive about being funny. Yeah. Being funny and sarcastic. Yes. More so than music. It's it's it's a kind of Liverpool thing, I think, I think. Maybe I'm stereotyping, but I think it is. You've always been, you guys have been great at tour promotion. I don't know what you might do for the next tour. One of the greatest things you ever did was all get on the back of a flatbed truck, drive down Fifth Avenue singing a belief-brown sugar. So yeah. And I'm thinking that takes nerve to drive through New York in traffic and and all the press was told you were going to be in this restaurant. And then they hear music and they come running out of the restaurant with their pads and their cameras and you guys are on the back of a truck going by. That's it. Which was fantastic. I don't know if people do things like that anymore. They don't really. Um, apparently Charlie told me that was the thing that jazz bands did in New York to promote their gigs, I think. In Harlem, I think. I think we'd get on the back of a truck. I think that's where we got it from. I think it might have been Charlie's idea. Yeah. Because that was the thing that happened in home. I mean, you mentioned Charlie. Charlie's, you use a track of Charlie's in Forentons. Yes. It's amazing. I know you guys are also readily identifiable by your sounds. It's very hard to do on drums, but you always know it's Charlie. Yeah. It's really incredible. Yeah. He's got two sticks and a drum kit that he doesn't have some Keith Moon crazy kit with a thousand. He's got a standard kit. You always know it's him. Yeah. And the funny thing is on this track, which is really fast rock track. You're always punk, you might say. And everyone says, you're such a sensitive jazz drummer. You know, that was so different about him. We're not on this track. No. No, he's banging it. Yeah. I have to ask you Oxfordshire pub. As we record this, I think days ago, you walked into an Oxfordshire pub and started singing to people. How did that happen? Well, you off your meds. What happened? Yes, I was didn't know where I was. I did an Oxford college. I went to an Oxford college. I was invited to a dinner and it were interesting people, very pleasant. Lots of nice students. And then one of the students that I was talking with said, I play mandolin. I said, that's nice. I said, not the easiest. It's I play imagine. I'm going down the road to play with an Irish band. So do you want to come? So I said, sure. And so I took a couple of people that I was with and the provost of the college. And he took his gown off and go into the power. And it was a very small pub, very friendly people. And the band was doing fiddle pieces and the guy joined in with his mandolin. But no, I was singing. Right. So I thought, Oh, well, here's his opening. You want to sing it? This is my big chance. This is my chance to pub crawling scene. So I did a song that I'd actually recorded. And then I had to rehearse it just mentally because I hadn't sung it in years. And I remember the least three verses. It's like an old standard, right? There's everyone's done it. I think even Bob Dylan's done it, I found out. Right. Well, not by I've heard it. But I had to remember at least three verses in my head before I started. So I didn't just launch into it. Because the worst thing you can do is launch it just song and then you've got one verse. And that. So I would pay to see that happen with you. I'm sorry. I would just love to see it. But it was fine. It was. It was two minutes long. Yeah. But well, that's, I mean, that keys into, I think, the main point that I wanted to get across in this interview, which is something that really strikes me in the short time that I've been able to hang out with you is that you were very much living in the moment, making things in the moment. This album, foreign tongues is of this moment. And you, I mean, sitting at a dinner with you and watching you trying everyone else's food, stealing some of Ronnie's dessert. And I thought, you're, you can converse about anything. You're, you know, crazily, deeply read. And you're just fascinating and all fascinated in all kinds of stuff. And I thought, I left my time with you. And I thought, I need, this is my new spirit animal is, is Mick Jagger. I want to, I aspire not to be you because that's not going to happen. But to kind of adopt that philosophy about life, which is just bite into it, stay interested. Yeah. I think that's like, you know, I don't think that attitude suits everyone. Because some people, some, was, you know, some of your creativity, if you're a creative person, let's imagine, you will draw on your past. You, you might draw on something that you had an idea for when you were 25. You might have written a short story when you were in 25. And you didn't publish it. And then you realized that, that will make a great film script. Or that would make a novel. I could now write now I'm 65. Let's, let's say. So that's, it's not true that, that you, you can't, you, you can't draw upon this, this whole well of your past and make it into something. It's, and so you, you're not, you, you've got to have to be aware of, of your past. And, but that doesn't mean you live in it. And, you know, you feel, of course, I'm always asked, you know, what happened when you did this. And it's so long ago. And you, you, you find yourself like, just repeating these stories, you know, even truly more. Yeah. You know, it's just like a, you know, footballer and a pub talking about his goal in 1972. You know, it's a, you don't want to become that. You know, that's a danger. So, yeah. So everyone says live in the moment. You know, it's just a kind of, like a, like a kind of fashion mantra. But it being to certain extent is true. And I mean, I think also when you're writing, like, these kind of, a femoral pop songs, which this, this, this is what this business is, you, you got to stay in the present days. So as writing a song like Ringy Hollow, you're, you're thinking about the now of what, what you're living through now, which of course, you know, you never know, it could change by the time the record comes out. But, but you know, but you can only write that you can't really look into the future. It's hard. So you just write of the writing of the now, you know, in a song like Divine Intervention, you're writing of the now, what your feelings are. And you know, so there's, there's a, there's a thing that runs through these lyrics of these songs that is definitely of the now and the kind of weird period. And we're kind of like, it's difficult for some people living in this period. And, and, and, and, and, you know, there's possibly dangers that, you know, that we're all in in somewhere or other, but we're all political dangers or economic dangers. And who knows what else? And, and we're all a bit, we're a bit a little bit sensitive to them. I think people are sensitive to the, to these things. And so when I'm writing the stuff, you know, I can't help myself, but I'm not, I'm not setting out to even writing. It just comes out. Yeah. It's what's happening right now. And these are scary times. But I have to thank you because you've given me you and the other lads have given me an enormous amount of joy in my life. And I'm glad I, that's what I have for. Before I became a bad guitarist, I was a bad drummer. And when I was a kid, I would set up a, my drum kit in the living room and put on stones records and try and do what Charlie was doing. And my parents let me do that. That's what my neighbors, they were lovely. They, I can't believe I would not let my kids do that. I would, I would smash the kit. But you've given me an enormous joy, lovely getting to know you and talk to you. And you're one of my favorite conversations. I've been talking to people nonstop for 32 years. And you're one of my favorite people. I hope the conversation today we covered a few of these. We got, we got so much. We didn't talk about your hillbilly guitar playing much and your guitar collection. Yeah. You might have mentioned that on these. I think we, no, we, we, we talked about it at dinner. You would do. We got into my fascination with rock ability. Yes. And wanting to sing. And, and funny Keith heard me do Ronnie Hawkins a version of Ronnie Hawkins 40 days where I do it twice as fast as Ronnie Hawkins. And Keith said you sound like a fucking auctioneer. But yeah, this is one of the joys of my life. And I'm so delighted that we were able to get together. Yeah. Really. And foreign tongues, please, when you get a moment tour with this, because I really want to hear this song's live. Yeah. Me too. All right. I want to do it. Thank you. I want to talk to you. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonom of Sessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Execuited produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Liyah. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Conn. You can rate and review this show on Apple podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the team Coco Hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of Sirius XM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com/Conon. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien, Needs A Friend, wherever fine podcasts are down the lead. [BLANK_AUDIO]