Michigan's Primary Drama, the DOJ's Next Boss, and Hillary Clinton Co-Hosts

Support for the show comes from ODU running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project one app for accounting another for inventory and other for sales and somehow none of them speak to each other that's where ODU comes in and all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing all in one powerful platform no mess integrations no bouncing between tabs and best of all no spreadsheets stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system try for free today at odo.com/pivot that's odo.com/pivot avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryers with thumbtack you don't have to be a home pro you just have to hire one you can hire top-rated pros see price estimates and read reviews all on the app download today Megan Rapino here this week on why are you like this I am talking with W. Kamal Bell and he is no stranger to creating his own lane we dig into the wives behind some of his biggest decisions like holding space for Ted Danson to talk about his blackface scandal Kamal's approach to dealing with trolls and what he would have changed when interviewing the KKK we also wonder if Megan Kelly is flirting with us check out the latest episode of why are you like this wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube no one's putting Hillary in the corner not me no no way Hi everyone this is Pivot from New York Magazine in the box media podcast network I'm Cara Swisher and once again it's time for Got reogas That's right Scott reogas has begun and in honor of in honor of that I have a very special guest as our first guest co-host I brought in Scott Galloway's hero former secretary of state Hillary Clinton welcome Madam Secretary oh it's great to be here I didn't know this was officially Scott free August yeah you're the kickoff yeah I'm excited wherever you are Scott have a great August we are very excited to have you here you're one of my heroes too and we've had some good times recently then you just went to the Liberty game how did that go oh my God well you know because you've been there it is the most exciting and fun experience I mean honestly the way that arena you know Barkley in Brooklyn lights up with the Liberty and of course Ellie the elephant who is naughty and fun did you mind the naughtyness no not at all no he was shaking her tail at me the whole time I loved it the crowd loved you by the way oh well I love the crowd I mean this you know going to a Liberty game in the summer in New York people in a good mood they're happy they're you know they cheered literally everything I mean if the referee walked you know onto the court they cheer they were just in such a good mood so yeah absolutely I would like to bottle that and make sure that it's available year round it does make you feel better how do you feel about like women's sports becoming it because it really is sort of hugely popular of suddenly women's basketball and there's a lot of controversy around again obviously recently mag is all upset if Caitlin Clark doesn't say something about trans people it's gotten really political too yeah well I think that kind of shows that it's succeeding I mean it's really broken through into people's consciousness because I mean I obviously can remember when there was nothing maybe maybe roller derby was like the closest to professional women's sports that I can remember and I love sports growing up and I was lucky enough to go to a public school that we played sports but only intramural only in physical education there were no inner school teams and the rules for girls were often different I played half court basketball which those a few of a certain age although it's coming back in some places six people on a team not five and three on each side of the center court line and it was just it it was a disappointment in a way because I think a lot of girls that I knew love sports they could swim and if they were like really really good you know maybe someday the Olympics but that was such a small number and then thanks you know to title nine and passing legislation which really made a difference in required schools to offer equal opportunities you know it took a long time to get fully embedded what were you good at as a sport what was your like attitude I was good at softball I was okay at half court basketball I never could have you know I probably I would never have made a school team and either but I love sports and I played sports all summer long with my brothers and the kids in the neighborhood when I was growing up and it really made a big difference when girls who were much better than me and more dedicated to sports got a chance to compete and thanks to the you know the National Women Soccer team they really put themselves out there on the equal pay demand and you know and they open the door and now there are now leagues softball leagues that are being professionalized as I said I heard just recently there's some kind of half court basketball thing that is reviving so I think you're gonna see more and more of it but you're also seeing pushback like we're seeing on anything affecting you know women and the public eye so we have to continue to you know push and defend yeah they're kind of trying to make these racial beasts they're trying to make trans beasts you know try to try to sort of enter controversy into something that's actually very joyful if you spend any time it is joyful I mean I would encourage anybody you know my husband watches all you know watches both men's and women's basketball and I watch some of it as well but there is just a feeling and my friends told me this you told me this and others told me just go to a game you will have a sport experience I've been to women soccer games but being in an arena with a crowd that is so enthusiastic and it it was just an amazing and an an naughty elephant and an audio and naughty elephant I wish it had been a donkey but it wasn't naughty oh no okay that might turn around the Democratic Party yeah no the question what have you done the rest of the summer what are you up to I've done a lot of traveling with my family going out west went to you know Wyoming with my daughter and her husband and the three grandkids had a great time visited some friends in Montana you know obviously the American west is just awesome yeah did you get out to the code is do you want to be on Mount Rushmore do you think you should be on not only do I not want to be on Mount Rushmore I don't think anybody else should be added to Mount Rushmore but it's it's quite a sculptural feat I mean when you get there and you look at these giant tails on the side of this mountain yeah now I'm also told that kind of similar to the reflecting pools screwing with it could possibly bring the whole thing down that I'm just predicting that there may be conversations happening some places that you know Washington Southern Florida about trying to figure out how to shoehorn another head into that I don't think that's a good idea nobody does except one person but can I ask you a question really quickly about the reflecting cool up I don't know what's happening well I will first of all if you if you go go through the chronology it's really clear what happened you know they hired a guy who didn't know what he was doing and he did what he didn't know and the result is you know the algae center of the universe and you know I think even Janine Piro says I can't prove this case now she went and guns of blazing into the obo office I read and basically you know said to the president's not my fault it's his fault and points to the interior secretary which has some truth to it I mean she's a US attorney she's not the interior secretary she doesn't run the National Park Service she didn't give the contract to the pool contractor who didn't know what he was doing and so she survived she actually had good arguments on her side and she was unafraid to make them but it's just another example of the absurd world in which we are living that you've got to the president of the United States obsessing over a failed pool job a construction job gone wrong that he oversaw just like what he's doing now in the South lawn tearing it up for the helicopter landing zone I mean honestly the guy is so out of it right now unhinged obsessed and focused on all the wrong things you know maybe we're maybe we should be happy he's messing around with the reflecting pool and you know nothing not starting another war somewhere else yeah kind of we're gonna get into some news in a second but first did you like the East Wing did you want a ballroom ever I never really thought about it. You know what we did. And it was a temporary solution. Everybody did it. If you had too many guests coming, it would be either outside or you'd put up a tent. Now, I'm not against the idea of a ballroom. I'm against this ballroom. I'm against the process that, well, the fact, the fact there was no process that created this, you know, car bunkel on the side of the white house, which I think is so unfortunate looking. So I don't, and the next president is going to have a big decision. What do you do with the half finished, you know, ballroom? What would you do? You know, I don't know. I mean, the idea of tearing it down is, and we don't know really what's going on underneath it. You know, under the, you know, several floors down under the White House. There are, you know, security, infrastructure, there are, you know, safe rooms. If you remember after 9/11, there's a picture of Condi Rice and Dick Cheney in a room, a very, you know, kind of crowded looking room. That is under the White House. So I don't know what they're doing down there. So you'd have to figure that out too. But I think they'll have to be some, you'll probably have to take down the arch, which he is determined to put up, which I think is just just a terrible idea. I think we'll have to worry about the reflecting pool, because it's not going to be fixed by the time he leaves, assuming he leaves. So there's going to be a long list. I'm making a list for the next Congress. Are you making a list? Are you going to de-gold the horses? The de-gold the horses take down, have you seen them up close? Yeah. I saw a picture. I saw a picture. It feels like Saddam Hussein. You know what, that's a very, you know, when I was in Baghdad after the fall of Saddam Hussein, I had meetings. I was in a senator. I had meetings in some of his palaces, and they were quite reminiscent of what we are seeing in our own White House. It's just the goal in saying this, you know, is that hard for you to watch? Or do you stir like, I'll take down the goal. It's sad. You know what? It's sad to me. It's sad that it's so tackyed up, and it's a reflection of, you know, his narcissistic personality and his need to feel important, including sticking gold embellishments all over the walls of the Oval Office. I mean, I was in the Oval Office, you know, under gosh, I think Carter, you know, Bill obviously-- You know the House. Obama, Biden, etc. And I'm looking at what he's doing to it, and this is a man who can't concentrate. This is a man who is mine apparently goes to where can I add more gold instead of how do I get out of Iran without looking like the looser that I am? How do I begin to, you know, deal with AI, which is a serious threat to our security, our labor force, and so much else? His mind is about, what are these things that reflect my need to appear important? And so that's what he spends his time on. Well, we can always take it down, right? We can always take it down anyway. That's on my list for the senior-- Secretary of taking down the gold. Wouldn't that be a good idea? Yeah. Secretary of cleaning it up. Fixing it up. Oh my, they would lose their mind. Anyway, well, it's already gone. Let's talk, let's move to the Democrats. As we take progressive candidate Abdul El Sayyat has narrowly won Michigan's Democratic Senate primary defeating moderate representative Hailey Stevens in one of the party's most watched races. The race has been widely viewed as a test of Democratic party's direction, pitting the progressives against the establishment. Representative Hailey Stevens, a side spent over $64 million in ads in the race. Well, El Sayyat spent $7.1 million. El Sayyat is backed by Bernie Sanders and AOC will face Republican Mike Rogers in the general election. It could help determine the control of the Senate. How much should Democrats read into these results? It was very close, which is closer than people thought. Well, I think you have to look at both the candidates and the messages and the support that each had. I know Hailey, she was a terrific member of Congress. She was a really effective member of Obama's auto recovery task force. She's a doer. She's a doer, but she's not a modern politician. I mean, she is not somebody who has mastered the art of video and performance online, and I think art of the lesson is that's what people are looking for, or at least half the people, because as you said, it was absolutely skin type. The election wasn't even called until just recently this morning. And so I think we're living in an era where because of people's attention spans and their obsession with their screens. They're looking for a candidate, regardless of almost where that candidate might stand or their positioning, but who first and foremost they can relate to through the screen. How does that person come across? And I'm just hoping that the people who come across well on the screen are also people who can produce results because that's not always the same thing, but that's what the evolution of political contests now is pointing us towards. Is it more than just the screen? Because I mean, look, being good at podcasts isn't going to get you elected, right? Exactly. You have to have that skill as you had to have various skills over the years. But there's this whole idea that there's this sort of struggle within the Democratic Party. And I think of my own son who lives in Michigan. He just liked what he had to say. And there's also a throw of the bummed out thing. I think he was impacted by the money. He was sort of like, what's with that? And I and he wanted to be able to articulate it without being like, I don't like a pack slash Elon slash anybody coming in. And he wanted to be able to articulate that without being called anti-Semitic or whatever it happens to be. He just was there was something else happening. Well, that that that was that was going to be my my second point. I think that the message was very powerful. And you know, people are fed up. They want to see results. They want to see government working for them. That's those who voted for Trump. That's what they thought they were getting. And so I I do think that the message, which is, you know, very clear, you know, Medicare for all get money out of politics. And the fact that she was an incumbent, all of that work to the advantage of El Saeid. So I think it was a it was a confluence of his skills, his presentation skills, which I think are pretty obvious, not an incumbent. He also had pretty broad name recognition because he had run against Gretchen Whitmer. He wasn't totally new to the to the state or to the voters. And his his message was a very clear, simple straightforward, you know, Medicare for all get money out of politics. And also, you know, I I think there was, you know, some questioning on the part of people like really I just want to try something different. I'm just not happy with where we are. I'm not asking you for advice, but which Democrats do about this sort of and the right is really taking advantage of this. It's the progressive left communists. Those are powerful words. But yeah, what how do you met? To me, you just say, we have a lot of people. We have a lot of different people in different states. What's the very different from Mickey Cheryl, very different from Amy Klobuchar, very different from, you know, that kind of thing or Gretchen Whitmer even. How do you do you think it is a wake up call or just like we evolve and we change kind of? Yeah, no, look, I think there's no doubt that, you know, the Republican Party is the Trump cult and the Democratic Party is a bigger tent. You know, we do have a broad cross section of people, what they believe, what their experiences are. I think that's an advantage. But we also have to win general elections. And so how we pivot and get behind the candidate in Michigan so that we can be to, you know, the Republican candidate, Mike Rogers, that's going to that's going to require a lot of outreach and a lot of willingness on the part of the, you know, the winning candidate and his supporters to know that they need the people that they were vilifying online in person. I mean, the kind of things that were said about Haley, her supporters, you know, there were a lot of really nasty personal attacks in this year familiar with. I mean, that's familiar with it. And, you know, one thing that we haven't yet seen enough of is that when the progressives are left, whatever we want to call, you know, candidates on that side of the Democratic Party, when they lose, they often don't support the candidate that has been nominated. You know, there was a lot of reluctance to support Kamala Harris. There was a lot of reluctance to support me when I got the nomination. So it can't be a one-way street, you know, if we're going to, if we're going to have a fair election as there was in Michigan and somebody comes out a little bit ahead, but needs to get a huge percentage of the voters that voted for Haley, they're gonna have to be willing to, you know, get into a conversation that brings those people over. - Back you're not gonna convince Republican voters in Michigan, and the real fight will be how, how do we make sure that people who voted for Haley feel comfortable voting for Abdul Al-Sahid, and how do we get independence to feel comfortable? And you can see that it's not just about Michigan, but the Republican messaging is communist, socialist. It's gonna be a very effective attack. And so people on the left have to be prepared to answer that, and to be effective at answering it. - Do you think communist is an effective attack in 2026? - Well, all I know is that's the attack that Trump is leading with, and I assume they've tested it, and I assume that they have reason to believe that it's effective, or they wouldn't be beating the drum on it, 'cause now it's not just him, Vance has done it, others are doing it. They are trying to, you know, bring back scare tactics about our candidates, and, you know, didn't work in New York. Mamdani was elected, and there was a lot of money spent against him, but again, when you have an effective candidate on the left, it still is gonna be a close race on our sides. So then how do these candidates who win, whether they're the candidate that's the more conventional, so-called moderate candidate, although really, moderate compared to what, not compared to Republicans. They're, you know, very much on the, you know, social justice, you know, redistribution side of the ledger, but if they are going to have to pivot to support the candidate on the progressive left side, they're gonna need to feel they're welcome. They're gonna need to feel that, you know, yeah, a lot of people like your son voted for him, they liked the message, but other people voted on different grounds. I mean, you know, Israel played a role in this election, as we know, APEC played a role, as we know. So there's gonna have to be, you know, on both sides, an understanding, look, we gotta work together. We're not gonna beat Republicans by being divided. What's the message against Rodgers? That he's a, you know, he's a Trump candidate, that he's gonna show up and he's gonna, you know, vote for the Republican agenda, he's gonna vote for Trump, and how well has that worked for you? I mean, even the people in Michigan who voted for Trump, is that what they voted for? Did they vote for the war in Iran? Did they vote for corruption, unlike we've ever seen before? Did they vote for tearing down the East Wing of the White House? I mean, there's a long list. - There's a long list, right? - He can't, he doesn't have much maneuver room or Trump will denounce him, although Trump, you know, can't go too far 'cause he wants him to win. But, you know, Mike Rodgers is not a, you know, clone of Trump, he's not a certified cult member. So I think it has to be a two way attack. Ten Trump on him, but also force him to have to decide whether to separate from Trump, which then undermines Republican enthusiasm for those who are, you know, the true believers of Trump. - Right, well, one of the ways they did it is midterms approach, we're seeing an impact of the redistricting wars, the Democratic's path to retaking the House has narrowed, according to the Cook Political Report. Thanks to newly redrawn maps across 10 states, the number of competitive swing seats has dropped from 87 to 77. Democrats need to win at least 57 of those 77 seats to take back the House. And meanwhile, Maryland Democrats are trying to fight back, lawmakers put a constitutional amendment on the ballot that could open the door to redrawing the state's congressional maps. But even if voters approved the new maps, wouldn't take effect until 2028. So talk a little bit about the gerrymandering for the upcoming, you're the first person who said, I'm a little worried to me and I picked my head up, huh. That's interesting. - Yeah, no, no, look, there are Republicans, you gotta give them credit, they know what they're doing. They have to try to narrow the electorate in order to elect their candidates. And they're purging voters, they're waging all these lawsuits, trying to get a hold of voter roles. They are trying to intimidate voters, they're trying to undermine confidence in the election. They know exactly what they're doing. And one of their most effective strategies is what they've done with gerrymandering and redistricting over the last years. And Republicans have no doubt about what's a stake. They could care less about good government, they could care less about trying to figure out how we create an optimum environment for even more people to vote and feel their vote was counted. That's not what they're interested in. They're interested in winning, holding power, and then inflicting their values on all the rest of us. So the Democrats for years, and there was a big movement. We wanted to go to nonpartisan redistricting. We wanted to make sure that people felt that they could vote in primaries or do what's called jungle voting. So they could vote for both Democrats or Republicans at the same time. We did all of this in the name of good government, expanding the electorate, all the right things. Meanwhile, the Republicans on the other side of the aisle were doing everything they could to create a system that they would dominate. And they did it. So it wasn't enough for them what they'd already done than Trump looking for more votes, 'cause he knew that the midterms would likely be bad for him. So that's when he called, you know, Abbot in Texas. And, you know, I'm really happy that Gavin Newsom was one of the first to say we're fighting back. We're not gonna sit here and be treated like chumps. You know, we're for good government, you're for power, and you're gonna dominate us for the foreseeable future. We're not gonna live in that world. So we have fought them to sort of a draw, but they ended up with an advantage. And there were a couple of states that resisted Trump until he literally picked candidates to beat the state legislators who thought it wasn't the right thing to do. So they are still on the march to do everything they can to advantage themselves. Our, you know, effort in Maryland fell short because a Democratic, I think Speaker of the House or Senate Pro Tem leader was against it. So we, West Moore couldn't get it out of the legislature. So he's trying to take it to a vote of the people. We saw what happened in Virginia where they went to the extraordinary lengths of getting a new map that they submitted to the voters. You didn't see Abbot doing that in Texas. They just drew the lines and, you know, told people to fall in line. And so when Virginia was overturned, that would have given us if it hadn't been overturned on what I thought was kind of a procedural, you know, red herring, but they did it. So we lost those potential seats. So this is gonna be a real fight. - So you're more worried, you were expressing more worry. Most people think it's gonna be a slam dunk. - Well, I'm always worried. I think we will still win, but I don't know how big our margin will be. - Which needs to be a margin's important. - It does, it does. It needs to be big enough to accommodate our big tent and also to drive an agenda in the house. And I still think, like I say, I still think we're gonna win. I still think that, you know, the efforts that were made for us to fight back, you know, did give us some advantage. I think maybe we'll even see some surprises in the Texas redistricting because I'm not sure they did as good a job redistricting because of the way they cut up black districts. But then along comes the Supreme Court decision getting the Voting Rights Act. And so all of a sudden, that gave states that wanted to limit black representation. Another bite at the apple, so to speak. - Yeah, but it didn't work in Missouri. - It didn't work in Louisiana. - Yeah, right. - And it worked probably in Alabama. And so, you know, so they never stop. I guess my point is they're not interested in free and fair elections. - So very briefly for the Senate, most people think that Democrats will not take the Senate, but what is your prediction? - I think we still have a 50/50 shot. I mean, it really comes down to Michigan and Maine. Can the new candidate and Maine beat Susan Collins? You know, she has a remarkable staying power in Maine. - Speaking of car bunkers. - Yeah, do you know what I mean? - You have Farnacle. - The, you know, Maine voters have voted for her while they voted for Democratic presidents, Democratic governors and Democratic members of Congress. So he's, you know, he seems to be, you know, really vigorously trying. And unlike the, you know, the problems that we had with the first candidate, he seems to be in, I hope, the stretch to, you know, be able to compete all the way. Nope, no surprises. And then back to Michigan, we'll see. We'll see whether, and it's the best year for somebody like El Said to be running. It's the best year because, you know, Trump is so unpopular. His popularity, I think, is down to 33%. So he will have the advantage of running against a Republican, when Republican and the Republican brand is not in-- - Especially with the war. - Yeah, and a lot of people I talk to about Iran, Cara, say that we're not gonna be out of it by the election. It's gonna linger over this country and cause problems in the economy. to me. And just about any way Trump now tries to get out of it, he's going to look like the loser, which I think our candidates can then add to their messaging against Republicans. Yeah. All right. Manor Secretary, let's go in a quick break. We come back. Todd Blanche gets closer to becoming Trump's new attorney general. Support for Pivot comes from Anthropic. Finding your flow work can be a challenge, especially if you don't have the proper tools. The good news. Claude is here to help you out at every stage, getting you through the small nitty-gritty and helping you look at the big picture. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop it good enough. It's a collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thanks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. You can delegate tasks of all sizes from tedious bug fixes and new feature ideas that handle other work while Claude runs in the background. Claude has checkpoints that let you save progress and roll back any previous state instantly. Plus, you can set up workflows to run on a schedule such as daily reports, weekly summaries and recurring data pools. All of this can help with your day-to-day operations. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at Claude.ai/Pivot. That's Claude.ai/Pivot. And check out ClaudePro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode, Claude.ai/Pivot. Support for the show comes from Rippling. Imagine you just found out your sales team is a risk of missing quota. No need to panic, just ask Rippling AI. Since it's built on your real-time people in business data, Rippling AI can pull metrics from Rippling and sales for us into a meeting ready dashboard showing quota attainment, head counterjectory and monthly revenue to quota by region. In seconds, you can see exactly what's behind your quota risk and fix it before it's missed. Question answered, action taken, crisis averted. So, when you have critical business questions that need answers, don't just file a ticket and wait weeks for an outdated report. Describe what you need and have Rippling AI build it instantly from your live people and business data. Whether it's a dashboard with detailed charts or automated workflows with the right triggers, conditions and approvals, ready to rule your business, head to Rippling.ai/Pivot to get the only AI built to give you full visibility and take complex actions across your entire organization. That's r-i-p-p-l-i-n-g.ai/pivot. Sign up for exclusive access today. Have you ever wondered who invented rock and roll or why Fleetwood Mac fell apart or what it was like at Motown in the early years? Well, do I have a podcast for you? My name is Will Anderson. I'm a songwriter, a musician and a huge music history buff. I'm so excited to announce my new podcast, The Monday Music Club. I teamed up to make this podcast with a Vox media podcast never because ever since I was a kid, I loved hearing and reading stories about classic artists, recording sessions and music history. And I wanted to have a place to be able to take what I've learned and share some of those favorites with you. Every Monday, I'll be releasing a new episode and deep diving into a new story with experts and special guests and it's going to be a blast. So, if you're a music history geek like me or even just a casual music fan, jump in because I promise The Monday Music Club is going to be the podcast for you. Madam Secretary, we're back with more news. Senate Republicans advanced Todd Blanche's nomination, Virtrini General, after he committed to killing Trump's anti-weaponization fund. Republican senators John Cornyn and Dom Tillis dropped their opposition after Blanche put in writing the fund would not move forward. Democrats argued that changes aren't legally enforceable and more of the fund could be revived in the future. Senate Judiciary Committee voted 12 to 10 long party lines to send Blanche's nomination to the full Senate or Republicans hold 53 seats. However, with Senator Mitch McConnell expected to miss the vote, Blanche can afford to lose only two Republican senators and Susan Collins already said she'll vote no. And great news, Blanche told faith leaders that he was planning to roll back abortion access, that's not great news for women, even in states that have laws protecting it, making dogs permanent in every state. How much do you think the justice movement changes under Blanche compared to last several months on how likely is the anti-weaponization fund resurfaces in another form? Now, a lot of people say if you didn't get Blanche, you just keep them there as acting and what's the difference, or I'll put someone worse in. Thoughts, although it's gone from bad to worse, from Pam Bond. Well, look, I think Todd Blanche has proven himself to be a total sickofant in every way. I mean, he had a fairly robust legal career before he began representing Trump. And he is all in. He's not the attorney general of the United States. He is the personal lawyer of Donald Trump presiding over the Department of Justice. And she pointed out by accident. And what they've done to the Justice Department, I don't think most people who are not lawyers or don't follow this closely realize what the perversion of justice means. I've heard you and Scott talking about what are the real pillars of the American success or political success, but especially our economics success over 250 years. Well, part of that was, look, with exceptions, a rule of law, a Justice Department that we thought was mostly on the level, a legal system with judges who were more interested in following the law than curing favor to the president who appointed them. That is a key to whether or not we have a confidence in our economic system as well as our political system. So what they've done to destroy confidence in the justice system has far reaching implications. It's not just about Trump trying to get immunity from having his taxes ever audited. You know, I've been in politics for a long time. I've been audited more times than I can remember. You know what? That's part of the way that you show that there's nothing to hide and you show that you have confidence in our legal system. Trump doesn't want to be accountable to anybody. He now has an attorney general who is a, you know, absolute implementer of whatever grunt or grievance that, you know, Trump puts forth. And I think I think Todd Blanche is extremely dangerous. And the idea that you would say what he said about abortion when allegedly the Dobbs decision was to put it back in the States. That was never their final goal. They always intended to go from returning it to the States to try to prevent the States like Kansas, a surprising red state that consistently votes to keep abortion out of politics to give women the choice to make what is best for them and their families. They don't want that. They want a uniform national set of, you know, criminal penalties and rules and Todd Blanche is going to deliver for them the best he can. How can he do that? I don't know. I don't know what he means by that. I think what he means is they're going to try to with the pills with the, because abortions are up numbers of abortions. That's the irony. If you really wanted abortions to fall, which I've been working for since the 90s, I've been working to decrease teen pregnancy, working to, you know, make abortions not necessary by providing, you know, contraception to people at an affordable way so that they could, you know, make decisions when they felt ready to make decisions, doing more education so that people, particularly young people, knew what was it say, I mean, there's a lot of things you could do. But if you're going to treat women like their disposable commodities and they should be barefooted in the kitchen, you're going to get more abortions because and they're going to be either legal abortions in the states where they are still available or they're going to be back alley abortions. And anybody who has studied history or knows anything about this understands it. Right. So do you think he could bring back the anti-weaponization fund? It seems, it seems to stick in Trump's car quite a bit. Well, I think they will try to reimagine the weaponization fund and call it something else and bring it back because Trump wants to reward his insurgents, particularly from January 6th, but, you know, others who have stuck with him despite all the evidence to the contrary. They want to finalize this immunity from auditing, which I don't see how they can do that. And I think that can be reversed. So I think he's going to, he has a checklist. He has the Trump checklist. He's going to go down it. Right. Would you apply for the anti-weaponization fund? Well, I don't think I'd be eligible under their definition. I would certainly consider it if they're going to take care of the crazies on the right who tried to upset our election and were beating police officers, which is absolutely disgraceful. So do you, but do you think he'll drop this? There's only a limited time he has. I think they're waiting to see what happens in the midterm. I think a lot of this will wait till after the midterms. And I think it's going to be likely that Trump is even more out of control after the midterms. And let's assume from my perspective, the best happens. We take back the house. We take back the Senate. He's not going to work with them. He's going to do everything he can to undermine them. He's, he's going to instruct who work for him not to respond to inquiries or even subpoenas. He's going to be in a big standoff with the Congress. And he's going to be using executive orders and whatever power he has from the presidency to pursue his agenda. I think he'll be pardoning a lot more corrupt people. You know, you look at the list of the pardons that he's given. It's a total transactional exchange. You or somebody on your behalf gives me money. I don't care if you've cheated, you know, elderly people in nursing homes, which one of the people that he pardoned did, to great cost to them. And you owe them billions of dollars in compensation. I'm going to take the money and just erase that. And I think a Democrat, Democrats can run against some of those pardons. Most people have no idea what he has done. He's given it. And what he's taken for it. I mean, the amount of money that he's taken for it. Right. No, it is coin operating. It is coin operated. It is coin operating. Cybercoin operated type of whatever like stick any money in. Or you get a you give money and you get a contract with the government. That's the other thing. To fix the reflecting pool. Whatever it is. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I bet you could fix the reflecting pool. Anyway. I bet I know I'd know where to go to get the right people. It's true. You know a pool guy, right? Yeah. I do. I know a pool guy. As we record this, speaking of water, US and Iran are reportedly closing in on an interim agreement to reopen the straight of hormones. I think I feel like it's Groundhog Day here. We've heard that before. Similar deals and arrangements have been made only to collapse when attacks resume. Trump said Tuesday night that a lot of progress has been made though that came a day after he warned Iran to face decapitation if it failed to reach a deal, which he said before he was going to bomb the back to last Sunday or whatever. We're now in the six months of this war that was supposed to last for a couple of weeks. Do you talk a little bit about this? And I'm going to make you repeat something. I've had you repeat several times. But what do you think is happening here? And do you have any confidence in this latest deal? Well, I don't have any confidence that it's a good deal, but it may be the best deal Trump can get because he doesn't really understand. He approved of a ceasefire agreement a few months ago that was a terrible deal for the United States and the region and international shipping and you know, the list goes on. So he really doesn't understand what is happening and what the stakes can be. So as I understand this latest attempt at a deal, it would result in fees being charged to at least some category of container ships going through the state of Hormuz. It would be a service fee. Now that has never been applied prior to this ill-conceived war that Trump embarked on. So that's a definite loss. The loss is that what used to be free, free navigation, a commercial, you know, sea lane that was open to everybody is now going to be an effect taxed by Oman and Iran. That's the first loss. Second loss is, you know, Iran still has ballistic missiles. It still is producing deadly drones. It is still attacking, shipping and it is still encouraging at least its proxy, the Houthis to attack and they went so far as literally to attack a ship in Egyptian waters. So what happened to the destruction of their ability to launch ballistic missiles? What did it happen? Deadly drones. That's a third loss. The leadership, yeah, he got rid of the people who were at the top, but the infrastructure prevailed. So you now have probably a more militaristic government structure that the, you know, Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps dominates and the clerics have been somewhat weakened but are still useful to keep the regime in place. So that's a third loss. And I think the fourth loss is that a lot of our allies have watched this in total confusion. I mean, the lack of strategy, the lack of effective implementation, the lack of results that were trumpeted as what was going to be achieved. And people are going to not just start, they have started hedging their bets. I mean, how are you going to look at the United States? At least so long as Trump is there with any kind of confidence at all. So I think it's a major loss, not just for Trump, sadly, but for the United States. So what two things? If he called you and said Hillary, I want you to get in here and fix this for me. What would you do? And secondly, you said something, you said Putin's in it in this way, Netanyahu's in it in a way. Yeah, it's called the domain of loss. So let me, let me talk about that first. And then I'll answer the question about if he were to call me or, you know, somebody were to ask me what to do that had any authority. So the domain of loss is a psychological concept. And it applies to human behavior. When you think you're losing, and this is why casinos make so much money and what gambling makes so much money in general, the likelihood is you will double down, you know, until something happens that you either run out of money or you kicked out of the casino because you can't pay your debts, whatever it might be. Well, the domain of loss is a concept that applies much more generally to our behaviors. And for leaders, it's the description of how they double down on losing hands. So in today's world, Putin is doubling down. He's going to inflict as much punishment as he can on Ukraine, because they won't quit. They won't, you know, lie down and die the way that he wants them to. Trump is going to continue to, you know, rant and rave. He's going to go after his enemies. He's doubling, he keeps threatening, double down on Iran. Maybe we'll get out of this. Maybe we won't. And the same thing with Netanyahu. I mean, he's in the domain of loss. So he has to keep, you know, fighting in order to preserve his political, in his mind, his political chances. And it's a psychological description of behavior that I have found very useful. So let's say somebody called us, how do we get out of this? Well, I think you have to broaden the decision-makers. One of the problems with Trump is he has a very narrow band of people that he relies on to negotiate everything. And, you know, after a while, that just doesn't work. I mean, even if they were the most accomplished negotiators, diplomats, whatever, you know, it's the same people you're sending everywhere. It just doesn't make the impact and it doesn't have the staying power that patient diplomacy requires. So who has the most to gain from getting the straight open, getting this war over? Well, obviously the Gulf region does. But so does India. And so does China. And so does Japan. And, you know, people who depend upon oil that is either coming from Iran or coming from the region that needs to go through the straight of Hormuz. And I would have them be playing a very active role in, you know, basically persuading the Iranians to back down from charging fees, which is only going to make their costs go up as oil is transported to them. I would be looking for ways to try to get them personally engaged with the Gulf so that the Gulf Arabs would be similarly sending that message, you know, why are you raising all of our costs? You know, this is not good for us. It may be in the short term, you know, attack, but it's not going to be a long term strategy. So it would be to expand the base of people that are interacting with Iran. And to make it clear that Iran has some, you know, stake in getting this over, getting the straight open and being, you know, open to negotiations on this nuclear program, which I think is going to be extremely hard. You know, I told you once Kara, I started the nuclear negotiations back in 2011 after we got a security council resolution that imposed global sanctions on Iran, which had never happened before. And then, you know, I worked with the Gulf, particularly with Oman, which is now a major player in what happens going forward. And we began secret negotiations, very small group of Americans and Iranians to test whether they would be willing to negotiate seriously about their nuclear program. And, you know, eventually we ended up with an agreement. And, you know, people say, oh, it didn't go far enough. It's hard. You know, doing negotiations is hard. And we've seen the alternative. We've tried to bomb their nuclear program out of existence. We haven't decapitated them. We have not, you know, we've decapitated, but we haven't ended the regime or its ambitions. Right. And it continues to be so. Would you, what do you think his next move will be? I think it depends upon his mood. I mean, he is the most impulsive moodiest president. It depends upon how he's feeling, how he's being treated, what is being said about him. You know, the Iranians have played him sadly, very effectively because every time he says there's an agreement they say we're not negotiating we're not we we don't know what you're talking about right yeah they fuck with them so if he can be quiet and try to figure out how to get a better deal than it seems like the one that is being offered could be maybe he can get himself out of this in you know a couple of weeks otherwise it's going to be a ping pong game you know he's going to get upset he's going to attack and we're running out of munitions we're running out of missiles and one of the great tragedies of this unnecessary not well planned war in Iran is that we should have been doing more to help Ukraine to defend itself against Russia they've run out of patriot missiles they can't defend against Russia's missiles Putin is you know just angry and determined to just beat them into submission Gil as many civilians as possible it's not going to break the Ukrainians but it's unnecessary terrible cost of human life where we could have had a win where we could have had a win there yeah we could literally we could have helped the Ukrainians and the Ukrainian war by maybe helping them defend themselves and he would have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize I think you know I'm the one I said this months ago I said if he got an honorable peace with Ukraine they don't have to give up any property they can go back to running their country I'd nominate him for the peace prize but he's more interested in his relationship with Putin I don't know all the reasons for that but you know he wants Putin's favor even more than he wants a Nobel Peace Prize you would nominate him can you tell the I don't know if you're willing to tell this story but that that picture of you and Obama laughing which is it's the second meme that's taken off what precisely were you telling him right then when you were laughing for people that is so funny when I was sitting behind him at the opening of their you know very impressive Obama presidential center in Chicago and I hope people get to go visit and come visit our presidential center I mean presidential centers really try to tell the history that Trump others don't want you to hear so we were sitting there I was sitting behind him and Michelle Obama was giving this incredibly clever speech touting all of Barack's many accomplishments and then you know she got to and of course you received a Nobel Peace Prize and I burst in a laughter he started to giggle I poked him in the back and I said oh my god I am sure Trump is watching this he thinks he's now in the third circle of hell I mean the way that he she just tweaked him about the Nobel Peace Prize and he goes yeah I hope he is it was great so the two of you had that moment do you like your little memes your little Obama I do I do I mean it's fun for me because yeah I never know what might become a meme I'm just out there living my life and all of a sudden there's a meme but the first meme was with me in sunglasses looking at my blackberry I think a hundred years ago like fuck you that was on a plane yeah and two young men did that meme and I thought it was so funny I invited them to the State Department so that I could meet them so we could take a picture I said here we'll have a real picture so yeah I get a kick out of it and you get a lot of memes I have a lot of memes yeah some are good are not so good but you know it's kind of it's kind of goes with you know the life that I lead I like the one of Trump looming behind you memes oh my god that was so bizarre you know people still talk to me about that I mean I was disturbing I wish you had turned around and said what are you doing yeah you know I've thought about that a hundred thousand times as you might guess and it was I was thinking about it in real time because I he's looming over man and tall and he's bulky and you know he's got a big you know physical presence and so I'm thinking to myself as I'm also trying to answer questions I'm thinking okay if I turn on him and say what are you doing or back off does that look like I can't handle him does that look like I am rattled does that look like I you know I'm a woman who shouldn't be in the oval office yeah if I ignore it how does that you know approach how do people feel that that is communicating so I ignored it I mean that was what I eventually decided to do because I didn't want to look either like I was being made to be nervous I think he was trying to actually provoke something out of me yeah he was yeah he was and I wasn't going to give him that but in retrospect there could have been some you know great good stuff yeah good pushbacks what the fuck you creep yeah exactly like that's all you creep yeah off you go um all right madam secretary let's go to quick bake will be right back okay madam secretary we're back big picture question for you what's the biggest story that isn't getting enough attention I think it's how we're gonna govern AI I mean there's attention being given to it Cara but there's no real action you know this government other governments are ringing their hands they know that we're heading into a totally unknown world if I were able to wave a magic wand I would be having literally a huge diplomatic effort with experts and you know really other people from different parts of the economy besides AI literally working on treaties and covenants and rules and standards and basically bring the world together against you know the tech companies because you know there's no way to deal with what is coming at us unless we have some kind of global response and that's just not happening I mean there are conversations you know the CEOs were in Washington yesterday talking to Trump but you know he wants to take pieces of their equity he doesn't want to govern in any effective way about what they're producing other than things that might be totally scary to national security but I just feel like there needs to be some global effort to try to get ahead of this in so far as possible in so far as far so this is the story or I think data centers of the proxy politically for people's worries about can you blame people I mean these big hulking high-freed buildings that make all kinds of noise and suck up water and get put onto your grid and maybe raise your price I mean these questions need to be looked at I mean I was proving of Kathy Hoko when she you know put on a a moratorium let's figure out what this means before just you know willy nilly going ahead so I think people's instincts were showing up at city council and county commissions and all kinds of political forums to say no we don't want this or at least tell us what we're getting and how to make sure that it's not going to be harmful I think I think people have a good instinct about this yeah a mayor of lansing was telling he had a good deal and the people wouldn't accept it because they're so angry at it you know you can't even do a good deal it was yeah I mean we don't really does the mayor of lansing really know what a good deal is wouldn't it be good if we took a hard look at our very creaky grid and said here are things you have to do in order to buttress the grid I mean yeah yeah so a good deal it's bigger local people shouldn't be stuck it's too big it's too big and the issues are national and even global yeah absolutely um I yelled at Tony Blinken at a dinner many years ago saying we have to have global ag standards and he just not from local global right the global I said it's global to global yeah all right moving on what are the most three most important qualities a democratic presidential candidate needs to have in twenty twenty eight that he or she can win the electoral college that is the only quality and because we don't know what's going to appeal to the electorate uh will the democratic primary voters uh want a relief after trump a counterpoint to trump will they want a fighter somebody who is just you know fists up all the time we don't know so seeing who gets through the democratic primary uh is just gonna crumble there's a lot it's totally unpredictable but then you got to be able to win and it's from my personal experience you don't that doesn't mean getting more votes it means winning the electoral college and that is hard for democrats and it's something that a lot of democratic primary voters are understandably not thinking about you know I'm gonna vote for who I like I'm gonna vote for who's expressing my anger I'm gonna vote for you know the person that you know I think uh can be the best fighter all of that's great but somewhere in the back of your mind you need to can this person win the electoral college and at the end of the day if we're gonna win that's what matters that's what that's all that'll matters it's only be if it's a man or a woman or no or no what I don't think we should be preemptively just qualifying anybody let everybody get out and compete and see who emerges and and I hope it's somebody who can be a good president not just win um but can also going into office be prepared like we were talking about earlier cleanup cleanup fixings you know the this there's going to be so much to fix I mean first you know get rid of all of the holdovers do not let anybody hang around in some small office somewhere who can literally subvert your uh program and you don't even know that person's there and I will predict that You know, Trump and his minions are going to try to, you know, put people, they're going to try to move people from political appointments to so-called civil service appointments, although they're trying to destroy the civil service. So people are going to have to be really searching to make sure that they are not going to be literally subverted from within the government. From that's a really good point, that's a really smart point. Is there, very quickly, is there any Republican candidate you're looking at that you think is trouble? No, I mean, obviously, everybody's talking about, you know, Vance and Rubio, I don't know, but I think there'll be a lot of Republicans running. The real question is, what will Trump do to try to hold on to power? Right. Will he stay? You know, he, when he goes around putting that, you know, third term hat on, you always have to take Trump at his tell, you know, this is a tell. He would love to serve a third term or at least he'd love to have the power of a third term if he can install somebody as the, you know, that's a good point. President that he controls and so who's he going to pick? Who's he going to be behind and is he looking for an opportunity to try to upend that election? You know, he's acted like he didn't care about the midterms, but he has $400 million sitting in a super PAC. Right. He's like Elon and others have said they're going to spend whatever it takes to try to prevent the Democrats from winning in the midterm. So is he going to be very active, spend a lot of money to try to prevent the Democrats from winning or keep their margin at a very, you know, small number? And then just basically do everything you can to undermine them. Is he going to want the contrast of a Democratic Congress that he can play off against? I mean, I don't know what their game theory is about the upcoming elections. But I do know he doesn't want to give up power. So what is he going to do? Is it a proxy? Is it him? Does he figure out some bizarre way to get Todd Blanche, the attorney general to side with him, the five of the Supreme Court justices that are, you know, movement conservatives to side with him. Who knows? But I think we have to watch all of that. Well, that means, you know, Obama can run again. Dilcon. Well, that's what we've been joking. We say, okay. So, Obama can go for a third term. My husband can go for a third term. I mean, you know, okay, if you're going to go for third terms, let's look at everybody who's eligible. Yeah, it's true. Oh, but he would like lose his mind. Although, it would be amusing in a different universe. All right. We're going to do a few rapid fire questions for you that are more fun for you. All right. What TV show are you watching right now? Well, I'm about to watch the new season of Ted Lasso. Oh. So I love Ted Lasso and Jason Sadekas and Hannah Wattington and Whitingham. It's Whitingham. Whitingham. Right. And cast members were at the Liberty game when I was there because this season, he is convinced to coach a woman's team. So I am really excited about, I think it starts tonight or tomorrow. I mean, it's going to be a lot of fun and we need some, you know, some positive, good feeling going on again. Yeah. He's there a lot, Jason. I see. I'm into him at the Liberty game. Yeah. Yeah. He's a great conversation with them. He's really excited about this season. He's speaking of Hannah. Did you see where I'd her die? It kinda reminds me of you, Hillary. I haven't. No. But she is amazing. She is. Yeah. I like her. She's a tall drink of water. She is a tall drink of water. But she is so much fun. She has a great sense of humor. What? Writer die. Okay. I got Writer die. I'm writing it down. Writer die. You'll love it. It's so funny. I finished it last night. All right. You're the grandmother of three. What do your grandkids call you and what's your favorite thing you do with them? I see you're wearing a necklace with your granddaughter's name. Actually. Yeah. Well, I also have my grandson's. I'll three of them are on this little necklace. They call me grandma. I just like doing anything with them. I like, you know, hanging out with them. I like swimming. I like hiking. I like watching funny television shows with them or whatever they're interested in. I like reading with them. I mean, literally anytime I get to spend with them is, you know, just a delight for me. It is the only experience in life that is not overrated. It is really worth waiting for. Do they know who you are? Do they know? Do they have a sense of who you are? I think, you know, they, they, I remember my grandson found a book in his school library that was about me, one of these little paperback books about my life. And he checked it out and he brought it home and he said, you have a book about you. So I think I think they know that their grandfather was president. I think they know, you know, that I was in, you know, a senator and secretary of state. I'm not sure they fully grasp it, but they find it, you know, somewhat confounding. Like, when did this happen to you? What did you do? Right. Absolutely. So Bo and Yang is the latest start to step into the role of Mary Todd Lincoln speaking of. He's be good at that. Yeah. Oh, Mary, if asked, would you serve? No. No. No. No. Yeah. Okay. I mean, the amount of physical comedy that Mary does, wow, it, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'd have to work out for a year in order to get you. Okay. You looking good, by the way. I always play, play myself on TV and movies, but you've had a lot of people portray you over the years. Who's your favorite, Hillary Clinton? I, I really don't have one. You know, because I try not to watch them. So I've never seen anybody portray me. No. So you don't have a favorite. I guess it would be Kate McKinnon, right? Cause you did appear with me. Well, you know, to be, I was thinking of the more dramatic presentation. I, I loved, I loved Kate McKinnon. I, I, I love her as a person, and I thought she did a great job as me. So you don't watch any of the other Hillary Clinton? I couldn't. I don't. I don't think one of the Murdoch's told me he didn't watch succession. I didn't believe him. I bet they did. Or else they had somebody watching, summarize it for them. I, I watched all your Hillary Clinton's. Well, so who's your favorite Hillary Clinton? Emma Thompson. It's not my favorite movie, but it's, I don't know. Yeah. But she's a terrific actress. Yeah. I would say she did a good job. She's sort of issued it. Is that okay? I'll put that on the list for, you know, I watch it. I'll watch it in the next decade of my life. Can I watch it with you? You know? Sure. We can hang out. Okay. A little bit about her. Let's go with Kate McKinnon on that one. All right. Madam Secretary, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Okay. We're back. Do you have a prediction for us? Yes. I do predict that we will take back the house. I predict that. Even with all of the obstacles. And I predict we have a slightly better than 50/50 chance to take back the Senate. All right. That's a good prediction. Yeah. I'm going to make a very brief prediction. We're going to have to take back the Senate. We're going to take back the Senate. well, my friend, you know, Sherrod Brown, who's running in Ohio, he's now calling his opponent the face of data centers in Ohio, because he's been all in on data centers. So the political issues are going to get played out one way or the other, but at the end of the day, we still need some kind of governance mechanism, some kind of, you know, that is correct. Evaluation of the upsides and downsides, some restraint on what they can and should do or not. So that's my hope. Such a common sense, Hillary Clinton. Oh, I know. I'm so out of date. I'm so old fashioned. I mean, truly, really, I'm just a walking an anachronism, you know, believe in all of these things that I still think would work if people actually get an attention. Yeah. Well, Hillary, it's time for you to start to speak up more. Yes, you know, I think that. Anyway, we all, we need all the good ideas we can get in this country going forward. Yeah. Well, we're both going to have to get out there and talk as much common sense as we can. No one's putting no one's putting Hillary in the corner. Not me. No way. No way. Anyway, you've been wonderful. I really appreciate it. But I just want to know we want to hear from you listeners. How you like this? Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot. It's been a question for the show we're called 85551 Pivot. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot since Scott free August. Hillary, I think you've done an amazing job. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel we're back next week. And again, thank you so much for joining us Madam Secretary. Thank you. Thank you so much, Cara. Today's show is produced by Lera Naiman, Zoe Marcus Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman, Ernie Ender, Dr. Engineer this episode. Thanks also to Kate Gallagher and Brad Sylvester and Nishat Kerwa as Fox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Fox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech in business, Hillary Clinton, 2028.