Michele Carson

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And with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good. How about you? I'm doing great, man. We've got a lot that's already out this week. We're recording this very early, but it's not going to come out until Thursday. But a lot of good episodes out there. Make sure you check them out. New Patreon episode. If you're not signed up for Patreon, now's a great time to sign up. All right, buddy. Are you ready to jump right into this episode of True Crime All the Time? I am. We're talking about Michelle Carson. In the late fall of 2010, Michelle Carson and her best friend went to Las Vegas to blow off some steam. Before finishing graduate school, Michelle chose to remain in Vegas when her friend left. And then days later, her body was found buried in the desert. And you and I have talked about it a couple of times. I had never been to Vegas until I was like 50 years old. And now I've been twice in the last three or four years. Right. Because they've had CrimeCon. That's true. Yeah. And I had always wanted to go, although I'm not a big drinker. I'm not a big gambler. But I really like Vegas. Number one, I love food. You do. And Vegas, man, has some great food. You are a foodie. It's not cheap. It is not. But they have some great food. They also have some amazing shows. Oh, yeah. So I would go there just for that. Yeah. You like those one type of shows. I know. The risque. The burlesque. No, my family and I, we like the Cirque du Soleil. Yeah. Unbelievable. Good stuff. Michelle Carson grew up in Walnut, California. She was the daughter of John Carson and Esther DeLeon. She grew up with her two older brothers, Kevin and Daniel. Michelle met her best friend, Vicky Rojas, in the fourth grade. In her interview for the show, Killer Among Friends, Vicky recalled that she had done something to upset Michelle. And Michelle threatened, Vicky's older sister found out and threatened to fight Michelle. The school counselors discovered the conflict and told Vicky and Michelle they needed to resolve their conflict and be friends. And then ever since that time, they were inseparable. It's almost like my first week at work when I worked for you. You know, we had that big showdown. When I was going to fight you and then everybody had to step in because they didn't want me to get fired. And I thought, you know, I'm going to fight you. And I thought, oh, I've made a terrible mistake in hiring this man. Because the first weekend I want to pound him. No, I'm just kidding. How many times did you have that thought? Man, I made a terrible mistake about hiring this guy. Never, never, not even once. But it's a very interesting story. It really is. Of how two girls became best friends. I also kind of think maybe that might have happened in your life. I don't know. You had one older brother and one younger brother. Oh, yeah. Right? So, you know, did your older brother ever have to come to your rescue? Did you ever have to come to the rescue of your younger brother when somebody wanted to beat them up or somebody wanted to beat you up? That's a yes both directions. I figured it was. I mean, you know, when you're a sibling, you kind of got to watch out for your younger brother or sister. As much as, you know, as you grow up, sometimes you don't like your siblings, you know, but you still have to protect them. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, they're still your sibling. Yeah. Well, I'm, you know, me, I'm an only child, but I've always heard that, you know, you're the only one that can be mean to them. Right. Exactly. You can't let somebody else do it, but it doesn't mean you're going to treat them great, but be damned if somebody else is going to do it. Family's family. Eventually two other girls named Alexis and Amanda became part of the friend group, which lasted after Michelle's high school graduation. In 2003 and then into early adulthood. You probably had your little friend group, didn't you? Yeah. And I still do. Yeah. I am still friends with a lot of the people I went to high school with. I'm actually more so friends with them than I am with the friends I made in college, which is not true for everyone. No, that's, that's, you're right about that. Now, is this the group that you used to do golf outings with? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we did golf outings every year until, well, it got to the part where I couldn't play golf anymore. I'd still be going if I could play golf. Her friend said that Michelle was the strong protector of the group. I get that. That was probably you. I mean, just wearing the singlet alone. Yeah. Kind of tells other people don't mess with this group. Yeah. Number one, I may not have it all together. So steer clear. Just crazy Saturday night. My buddies with my singlet on. Yep. Yep. No cup, no nothing. Just free ball. Showing what God gave you. Michelle was a criminal justice major at Cal state Fullerton. It was here that she met her boyfriend, Justin Burns. Justin played basketball from the school for the school from 2004 to 2007. I guess he had to be pretty decent if he played for Cal state. Yeah. I mean, it's not a huge basketball program, but it's, it's not terrible. I mean, that's, that's pretty good. I mean, if you play at the college level, you're, you're decent, right? You have to be, I think so. You have to be pretty good. Yeah. Justin was the son of former university of Nevada, Las Vegas basketball player, Michael Spider-Man Burns, who played college basketball in the late seventies and early eighties. And Justin had been a top 200 high school product. Just like, like I was, but not for basketball. Yeah. For what? Not really supposed to talk about it. Top two. Well, you have never been top 200 in anything in your life, except for the number of free meals that you've gotten. You are definitely in the top 200. Probably the top 100 there. But that is impressive, right? You think about how many high school basketball players are out there. Oh man. Cause it's not just the U S they rank Canada and other places as well. That that's a, that's saying something that is Justin and Michelle were on again, off again for about five years from the outside. It seemed like they were happy, you know, loving couple Michelle's friends though, took notice of their frequent breakups, but they didn't think anything was seriously wrong. And I think a lot of, you know, couples go through that. Okay. They break up, they get back together. Yeah. You know, I've had friends like that. You're like, wait, what you and Kim aren't together now. Oh, okay. The next day you are. What's going on here? What's happening here? I think, you know, sometimes people, what's the word? And they jump, right. They jump too quickly. They get upset, but then they quickly realize, Hey, I really love this person. I can't live without this person. I think that happens a lot. Sometimes I think people like drama too. Well, they really do. Some people do. The problem here is though, that Justin had been violent with Michelle in the past. According to the San Gabriel Valley Tribune, he slapped Michelle sources didn't explicitly state this, but it seems that Vicki was one of the only people, if not the only person who knew about the problems between Michelle and Justin. Yeah. You know, that's a lot of shoulder right there, you know, it is. And I think it's probably not that unusual, you know, how many times do we talk about, you know, a couple looking too perfect or, you know, from the outside looking in, it seems like they have it all. They're in love, but you just don't know what's going on behind closed doors. Unless somebody chooses to confide. And it sounds like Michelle chose to confide in her close friend, Vicki. Yeah. Vicki never discussed Michelle's private life with anyone. She said, I was like her secret diary. Oh, that's a true friend, right? I mean, well, that's a good quality to have in a best friend, right? If you're going to tell them something that you don't want other people to know, you got to trust them to keep that secret. Yeah. And they got to honor that. Michelle once told Vicki that she and Justin got into an altercation. Things got pretty heated and Justin pushed her against the wall and put his hands on her neck. That stuck with Vicki throughout the years, but she never thought about it. thought to break Michelle's trust by telling someone. And Vicky recalled that she did once tell her friend, Michelle, if something ever happens to you, do you understand what I'm going to have to tell your parents? Well, and that's a good point. It's also a very tough place for her to be in. Yeah. You kind of parked her in that uncomfortable zone. Right. If she betrays Michelle's trust, that's going to wreck the friendship. Right. But she loves Michelle and wants to look out for her and really wants maybe someone else to know this because she doesn't think it's right. And obviously it's not right. No, it's not. No man should ever be, you know, pushing a woman up against the wall, putting his hands around her neck, slapping her in the face. That's we know that's not right. Michelle graduated from Cal State Fullerton in 2008 and decided to go to graduate school. Justin dropped out of college by 2010. Michelle seemed like she was on the right track for a successful career. Once she earned her master's, she planned to work with young people to help them avoid being trapped in the criminal justice system. I was like, she had a plan. Yeah. And it seems like she was working towards that. And it sounds like it would probably be a pretty fulfilling job. Yeah, I think so. Her career. Justin had played for a pro basketball team in Portugal, but was let go by 2010. He was living in Las Vegas, couch surfing and had no job, according to A&E. Couch surfing. Remember those days? I do. No, no. I've never couch surfed at anybody's house. Recliner surf. No, no, nothing. Always had a job. Always had my own place. I did too. I know. I wouldn't know what to do if I had time. A couch surf. Well, first of all, nobody would let you stay in their place. Well, that's true. Sleep on their couch. No, nobody wants me. But here's the thing I want to talk about, right? We did talk about how good of an athlete Justin was, you know, top 200 prospect. And that can lead to a lot of great things. But obviously it didn't work out for him in college. I said it, right? He dropped out. Right. And then what happens when you don't make that, right? Your dream of playing basketball and getting paid to do it. And you don't have the backup, which is getting the degree or, you know, all that. Now you can make some good money playing overseas. Yeah. I had some friends that I played with that made, you know, over half a million dollars a year. Playing in the European league. Playing overseas. Yeah. It's good money. Yeah. But it only lasts for so long. Exactly. It's not a long-term solution. No, it's not. It's like, you're not LeBron James making $56 million a year. Right. Okay. If I played one year, I'd be like, oh, I'm good. Yeah. I just retired. No, but you know, those guys make so much money that they don't really need anything to fall back on. No. As long as they invest right. Yeah. Now there have been college stars who get drafted very high. I can think of the one guy from Duke. Yeah. He got in a motorcycle accident his rookie year and he never played basketball again. I don't think. Or he never was at the same level. So he made some money, but that was it. Yeah. And then he, but he fell back on broadcasting. Because at least he had his college education. Or he went back and got it. I don't know. Yeah. A lot of those guys leave early, but they do go back and get it. Yeah. I've heard that. Even a guy like Steph Curry. Yeah. As good as he is. He went, I think he went back and got his degree. Why not? Which is pretty cool. At one point, Michelle was living with Justin in Vegas, but Michelle moved to West Covina, California to live with her father. By the summer of 2010, it seemed like Michelle and Justin were broken up for good. In the fall of that year, both Michelle and her best friend, Vicky Rojas, were looking forward to finishing graduate school. And that's a big accomplishment. You know, my daughter finished last year. That was awesome. Yeah. For her. Yeah. And she got her first job. Now she's in her second year of that job. Yeah. I mean, time flies, but I was so proud of her for that. However, Vicky recalled that around this time, she felt sad and unsure of what to do next. Michelle was the one who suggested a girl's trip to Las Vegas to blow off some steam. You know, nothing wrong with a girl's trip or a guy's trip. You know, those are kind of fun. Like we were just talking. Used to do some golf trips. Yes. I'm sure you had a blast. We did. You attended those. We did. Always came back a little hungover, but refreshed. Yeah. You know, I think Vegas is a great place to blow off steam. Oh, yeah. It's also a great place to get yourself in trouble. You can get yourself in a lot of trouble. Yeah. You can do that anywhere, but especially, I think, in Vegas. It's a lot easier there. Yeah. Because there's just so much available. Yeah. There's so much available to you. Well, it is known as the Sin City. Or just as Sin City. I don't think they call it the Sin City. So, apparently, they didn't have like a specific itinerary. Yeah. This wasn't like a pig in the poke, you know, itinerary where you got to be to certain places, you know. Yeah. But they plan to go shopping, lounge by the pool, and just have a fun, relaxing trip. And that would be the definition of my walk. My wife's favorite vacation of all time. I was going to say, that fits right up in her area. That's in her wheelhouse, right? Shopping, lounging by the pool. So, they arrived on October 26, 2010, on their first night in Vegas. They went to the casino, saw a show, and went to dinner. They spent the evening with Michelle's friend, Emil, who didn't live in Vegas, but was there for business. Vicky noted that Emil had a crush on Michelle, which was not true. not reciprocate. That happens sometimes. It does. You know, in a perfect world, each person would have a crush on the other, right? And then, you know, something would happen. But I think very often one person is enamored with the other, but the other person doesn't feel the same way about them. You have the crushy and the crusher. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if they would use terms that way, but I get what you're saying. The problem is then somebody is getting stuck in the friend zone. Oh yeah. And you know, friend zone, horrible, not a fun zone. No, it's not that you don't want to be friends. I've just always felt like I have enough friends. That's the way I felt like in high school. I've got all my guy friends. I don't need more friends. I need that others. I need a girlfriend. That's what I need. Well, you know, that makes me sound like I never had one, which I did. Had plenty. But I did get stuck in the friend zone too and did not like it. But then you have your wonderful, beautiful wife. For 30 plus years. Yeah. So, but that sounds like a good first night, right? Casinos, show, dinner. How can you beat that? No, what else do you need? That's Vegas. You know, those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat, the sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants, or the tee. You somehow always reach for first. Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy. And that's what Quince does best. 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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash T-C-A-T-T. On the night of October 27th, they stayed out until 11 p.m. They were staying in a suite that had two bedrooms and a living room. Vicki was in her room, but came out to the living room because she heard a noise. She was surprised to see Michelle's ex-boyfriend, Justin, in their suite. Oh. So, you know, already as we're into this episode, we have two guys that I think we have to take note of. We do. Right. Justin, for sure, because he's the ex-boyfriend. Oh, yeah. Now come to find out he's in Vegas with them on what is supposed to be a girl's trip. All girls trip only. And then we have this guy, Emil, who. They didn't go with, but they ran into. Yeah. And it was said that he had a crush on Michelle, but she didn't, you know, feel the same way. now vicky said she knew justice was justin was living in vegas but michelle hadn't told her that she was going to invite him over michelle was still asleep in her room justin told vicky that michelle mentioned she was feeling sad lately and i think i'm guessing she didn't want to tell her because she knew that her friend would be like hey this is supposed to be a girl's only weekend what are you doing inviting him well i think that's that's the one part of it the other part is right vicky's the only person who knows that he has been violent yeah towards her so out of all her friends she's probably going to be the last person who wants to see this guy and them even in the same room that's true together yeah that's kind of my thought on it vicky recalled that justin was outwardly friendly but she felt creeped out especially because he was quote preaching to her about life he then told vicky he was going down to the vending machine and left the room well he probably didn't know vicky knew everything that's true you know i guarantee you michelle did not share that with justin yeah because that wouldn't have gone over well at all vicky went to check on michelle because she just had this kind of weird feeling about her friend she peeked into michelle's room and saw her chest rising and falling and thought to herself okay you know i'm losing it there's nothing to worry about she's not dead and so she snuck out of the room justin then returned and asked vicky an odd question he asked do you think michelle is a good person vicky replied yeah of course she's my best friend right i think she's a good person michelle then entered the living area and asked justin what he was doing and told him to leave vicky alone justin left their hotel it's just a very weird interaction it really is first of all she's shocked to find out that he's there then she's she has this disturbing thought that you know after he leaves maybe she's going to leave and she's going to leave and she's going to something's wrong with michelle but she sees her breathing yeah sees her chest going up and down but then this question do you think michelle is a good person that that's that's such a weird question to ask the person's best friend even if she thought she wasn't a good person it's her best friend she's gonna say yes she is a good person yeah but why would you think your best friend's not a good person well exactly i'm just saying no you just said even if she thought she was a bad person if if maybe she just i don't know do you see how sometimes roads lead to nowhere somebody out there knows what i'm talking about oh they there's always someone who will come to your defense believe me i understood exactly what he was saying vicky didn't call or text anyone about michelle meeting up with justin in vegas because she wanted to protect her friend's privacy she also didn't call her text anyone about michelle meeting up with justin in vegas because didn't ask michelle about it in the morning because she assumed they were getting back together again and i can't say it enough gives but i i i really feel like vicky is in a kind of a tough position here it is a tough position because if you want to complain about like you can't really say he's such an ass you shouldn't be with him you know because they're i know i've been in that i've been in that scenario it's awkward where you don't like your friends boy friend or girlfriend but you have to be careful what you say about them because it might not be over for good exactly you know you know until it's like been signed stamped double stamp sealed i don't know well you can't triple stamp a double stamp that's true yeah it's not allowed anymore that's just that's just fact yeah by october 28th vicky wasn't feeling well emotionally she tried to have a good time she michelle and their friend emil went to dinner and a show but vicky couldn't stop crying she just felt this really strong sense of dread that only got worse as the weekend went on that's a bummer yeah it's terrible eventually it got so bad she decided she had to leave vicky hoped michelle would want to go home but michelle decided to stay vicky was disappointed because she just really didn't want michelle to get back together with justin yeah when vicky got home she tried to give michelle space to let her figure things out with justin she also kind of hoped that not texting or calling her friend would express her disappointment you know that's that's can work sometimes it can it sounds like a strategy that i might try to be honest with you you know i can see you doing that you know just i'll just ignore you for a little bit for a little bit let you wonder why no you don't have to wonder you should be able to figure it out i don't need to call you and say hey i'm disappointed in what you're doing the fact that you're not hearing from me should tell you i'm not happy with what you're doing hey that's only happened a handful of times in our relationship very rarely very rarely some other people in my life have experienced it more let's just say someone's experiencing it right now also i'm just saying it right now just because i say i do something does not mean other people should try it it does not always work out well for me it came back to me i'm disappointed in what you're doing the fact that you're not hearing from me should backfire i'm being honest about all of it so michelle finally called vicky on the night of november 6 2010 vicky was still frustrated so she didn't answer which she regrets yeah of course now it's not her fault right we say that time and time again right there's no way that she could have known what was to happen yeah but there's also no way that you're not going to have feelings of regret after it does investigators believe that michelle and justin were attempting to give their relationship another shot but things didn't go smoothly the couple went out to dinner at the cheesecake factory on the night of november 6th they were seen arguing that night you know why because they were arguing like why is it taking you so long to pick one of the 500 things off this menu to order i'm telling you what i i don't like the cheesecake factory for that very reason yeah their food's okay yeah their desserts they're good yeah it is a cheesecake factory that's true the problem is if you got more than 20 pages in your menu you've lost me absolutely because now i've seen multiple things that i might want to try and i can't decide you can be good you can be good in a few things you can't be great you know that's the other thing yeah right there's a reason why these iconic restaurants don't have a menu with 150 different things on right you know this is what we do really well take your pick yeah keep it simple man yeah i don't know if they've parroted down i stopped going to be honest with you i haven't been there in years i heard something about bankruptcy recently it would not surprise me and i'm not bad mouthing cheesecake factory i just think it's it's bad execution you just got too much stuff yeah exactly you know the next day november 7 west covina officers knocked on the door of john carson's home and asked if michelle lived there and if she was in las vegas john confirmed his daughter was on a trip and was informed that michelle's car had been found abandoned with the engine running and she was nowhere to be found so right there would scare the you know what out of uh any any father yeah at that point i think that's easy for you and i to to put ourselves in right that position i've got two daughters you've got a daughter and a son i don't i would be speechless i think you know i'm almost speechless right now right because i i just i don't even know how that would hit me i just know it would be it would hit hard yeah it'd be a very sinking feeling is what i imagine another officer was dispatched to do a missing persons report john called his ex-wife michelle's mother esther daily on in her interview for the show killer among friends esther noted that she and michelle talked often but she hadn't heard from michelle that week she texted her daughter and received no response john carson called vicky rojas but she didn't answer michelle's brother kevin drove to vicky's house to talk to her vicky explained that she didn't know where michelle was because she had decided to stay in vegas michelle's family asked her why she decided to come back early and this is where vicky kind of had a difficult time yeah you know explaining her feelings of sadness this strange encounter with justin burns she recalled i remember wanting to explain what i had just experienced but it was dark and i've been able to like think about it and i've been able to like think about it and i've been able to like think straight i would have been able to tell her come back with me i regret not doing that right and again there's that regret right you're gonna have it there's no way around it yeah you're not gonna be able to shake that by november 8th those close to michelle were frantically trying to reach her vicky called michelle's phone provider and pleaded with the person on the phone to tell her the last person michelle called it was justin's brother who said he had no idea where justin was yeah so there's a couple of things there number one that it's amazing that you know they were able to get the phone company right to cell phone company to give them that um but then to find out that her last call was to justin's brother yeah that's strange and then he's saying he has no idea where his brother is yeah something seems weird i mean at the very least you're not getting any answers to your questions you're just kind of getting more questions i'm gonna say yeah it's not nothing there is helping this situation no if anything it's just making it even more cloudy i think on november 9th michelle's family and vicky drove to las vegas vicky told them all about the last time she saw michelle her encounter with justin and that when she left michelle was asleep and seemed fine she said she was worried about michelle getting back together with justin you all those secrets she held in now have to come out yeah and i i think you got to be completely honest with the family at this point right and not worry about as much about the consequences because they need to know everything absolutely right now because we got a real tough situation going on michelle's family went to the police station and they received the devastating news that michelle's body was taken to the police station and they received the body had been found in the desert just outside the city which is heartbreaking absolutely it's also you know the thing about vegas that you notice immediately when you fly in right vegas is like this kind of oasis and just surrounded by desert just desert everywhere and i think that's why in all the mob movies you know people get killed in vegas and they are driven to the desert and buried buried and forgotten and i don't think that that's just a movie thing i think that probably happened quite a bit no i do too i think there's i hate to think how many bodies are probably really out there yeah it's kind of like the old you know new york thing you know buried or thrown in the hudson right or whatever it was with uh cement shoes that happened it does it did it did i'm probably maybe still does i'm assuming probably still does i don't know how much mafia quote unquote is left i don't think nearly uh as much as there used to be no okay folks here's something my younger self definitely would have benefited from and that's chime chime is changing the way people bank they're nothing like the old traditional banks charging fees and gatekeeping perks and rewards they have no overdraft fees no monthly fees no minimum wage no monthly fees minimum balance fees you 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carson later told the las vegas review journal we couldn't even bury our daughter there was nothing left yeah i mean how terrible is that that someone burned her strangled her burned her but think about this family you know you go from thinking something's wrong right can't get a hold of your daughter to you know fairly quickly learning that she's dead and was murdered strangled and burned yeah i mean it's bad enough that they burned her i mean bad enough that they murdered her yeah but then they had to go to the next level and left the dad the mom with nothing yeah basically but what does that say about the killer trying to cover their track that's what i think yeah right fire does destroy certain things or can i don't know why else you would want to do that other than you're so mad at this person maybe you want to disfigure them even further but to me it's probably more than likely about trying to erase um evidence right when the police interviewed vicky she initially wasn't thinking justin was involved but the police were asking questions about him and wanted to know if he had ever been violent with michelle and we talked about it right vicky never discussed michelle's private life yeah but she realized that she needed to share what she knew about justin and michelle's relationship absolutely i mean how can you not you now know she's been murdered right you're talking to the police the police are asking you to tell them that you're about the relationship if there was ever a time to spill your secrets it's now everything has to be out out in the open yeah but i can also see why initially she wasn't thinking justin right because she went in to check on michelle she saw her chest rising up and down yeah and then justin left yeah now she did later leave and go back home and michelle was there for a period of time but you know i could see why she might not have thought it was him at first and it turned out this was the first time michelle's parents were ever aware that there was violence in the relationship and that doesn't surprise me no not at all you know vicky's not going to tell them no michelle's not going to tell them no because if someone came to you and you know your daughter came to you and you know your daughter came to you and you know your daughter's best friend came to you and said you know what your daughter's boyfriend's doing that relationship the best that you could would be over oh it's over yeah and that's why most likely michelle wouldn't want to tell her parents yeah because if they're going back and forth right if they're on again off again once you tell them that it's really going to be hard for it to be on again right and for you to bring this guy around almost impossible it's impossible yeah no dad or mom is going to allow that or want this person in their house they're not going to be happy with you no right for making what they think is a bad decision yeah and there are some dads who you know might take it even a further let's let's put it that way yeah i know one of those john carson had initially suspected that perhaps justin was murdered too and was buried in a different location and that makes sense right they don't know where he is his brother doesn't know where he is and maybe they got robbed and you know somebody killed both of them at the same time but they buried them in different locations yes so detectives focused on finding justin but they found out he had fled the las vegas area cell phone records showed texts between just and michelle the night she was killed they had gotten into an argument and it appeared that michelle locked him out of where she was staying there was a ping on justin's phone close to where michelle's body was found and then after that his phone turned off and that is never a good sign it is not it's kind of kind of a tell yeah but i again i don't understand how people don't know how cell phone phones work and that they're tracking everything you do you know let's go back to the idaho college murders you know look at brian coberger you know they know that he turned his phone off right and then at some point after the murders he turned it back on now does it put him there no that alone doesn't but i mean it might as well oh yeah i mean it's damning it's yeah you can't get around it no i i don't understand why you just wouldn't leave your phone some place yeah don't bring it with you and just not take it with you but again we don't want people to we don't want these killers to to think like that we want them to get caught sometimes i do think it's that maybe they're not ignorant of it i know he wasn't he was in uh he was in criminal um yeah that's right he was in what's my bobber yeah why am i drawing a blank same thing that michelle was in yeah criminal justice yeah that's what that's what he was in so he knew about it but i just think they think they're so smart exactly he thought he was smarter and he did he was a real yeah horse's ass exactly i just think he thought he was gonna you know out smart everybody yeah i'm with him i definitely think justin yeah i don't know on march 17 2011 justin burns was arrested in jackson mississippi where he had been hiding with relatives in early december 10 10 yeah 2010 we'll go with that didn't someone say how we didn't say the 2000 right i always say like the 80s yeah but i don't say 1980 but i don't say what is it because you wouldn't say the 10s here no no you wouldn't but you wouldn't say the 80s or the 90s right yeah um no it's um i say in 2010 instead of 2010 oh okay but i don't say 1980 right i say 1980 1980 i got and people always wonder why i say it like that i don't know why i say it like that it's just the way i say yeah so in early december 2010 or 2010 however you want to say it a woman came forward to police alleging that jason burns justin's brother told her boyfriend that justin came forward to the police and killed his girlfriend and burned her body in the desert the woman's boyfriend allegedly confirmed jason burns suspicions about his brother's involvement in the murder yeah you know it's going to be rough to hear that your brother did something like that yeah but um you did especially if you don't think of your brother as a murderer now if you do maybe it's not that rough maybe that's not hard to believe i don't know but again here right you take your cell phone with you so you can get your cell phone with you and you can get your cell phone with you and you got your phone pinging right and you're not a stranger no how do you think police are not going to look at you as the on again off again ex-boyfriend you are if not the first person they're looking at you're right up there yeah you're at the very top right so you have that and then you go and tell someone that you did it come on now yeah and you're hiding out yeah you're just you just everything you're doing is screaming guilty yeah so it was also noted that in the weeks after michelle's body was found justin's father michael burns refused to cooperate with police regarding his son's whereabouts police all also discovered through phone records that michael burns was looking for psychiatrists to help justin in the wake of an incident with his girlfriend okay it's a little more than an incident yeah i mean i get it you know parents want to protect their kids right or wrong and sometimes they want to shelter them uh from you know doing what's right getting in trouble getting in trouble but uh it's a tough call i mean it's you would like to say and i think everybody would know i would do the right thing yeah right every time but then you're looking at your son or daughter and thinking i don't want them to go to jail i don't want to lose them forever right so do i do i blame the parents yeah i do because they're not doing the right things but can i also be honest and say i'm sure it's not the easiest decision for everyone right and i would say yeah i get that so justin was charged with murder prosecutors accused him of driving michelle's car to the location where it was found burning her body and she was charged with murder and she was charged with murder and and burying her remains in the desert many people who knew justin were surprised to learn of his arrest his college basketball coach bob burton said he was a really bright kid fun to coach he was never a violent person people really liked him and i'm sure he was to these people right some people don't show their violent side to everybody you know they might only show it to their partner true they might only show it to one partner yeah or they might only show it to you know females if you're a male with whom you're in a relationship with you may not show it with your teammates or other males and that's why sometimes people can't understand you know when they hear that this person did something so bad they're like that doesn't sound like him yeah it's not that that's you know we didn't know him like that but you're you if you're gacy you're not going to show the violent side to all your neighbors no you're going to have a picnic yeah or a block party you're going to be uh an outstanding citizen yeah i mean that's just how i mean again we're not talking apples and apples here we're talking serial killer versus this kid but yeah i think the same rule applies in that and not just with killers just people don't show all their cards to everyone no they don't in november 2011 friends and family gathered at michelle's home in west covina to pay tribute to her life and to raise awareness for domestic violence john carson said per the daily breeze we just want to raise awareness bring everyone's attention to how big a problem it is rich poor middle class it touched everybody's life yeah and that's the one thing about it it doesn't seem to miss any segments of the population right you know people can be abusers if they're billionaires millionaires middle class poor it doesn't matter spans at all it does michelle's parents said they felt obligated to speak on her behalf according to john carson she's been silenced myself and my family will be the voice of our daughter depression can destroy you we didn't want that to happen that's not what our daughter would have wanted and it'd be easy to delve down into depression oh i think it'd be very easy yeah right to just fall apart yeah but i think this is what you see from a lot of families they're trying to process the grief and a lot of times they channel it into trying to do something good yeah maybe in the name of the person that they've lost in this case a ray you know ray awareness for domestic violence help other people that might be going through the same thing yeah absolutely yeah michelle's mother esther daily on said if we can save someone else that's what we want to do yeah michelle's parents acknowledged they'd never given much thought to domestic violence until they learned it could have played a role in their daughter's death justin had never given them a reason to worry but they later learned he'd been violent with michelle and had slapped her justin was polite and respectful when in front of them and i think a lot of these people that do this kind of thing they're like that right yeah you you would think and as we kind of already mentioned that they are a great guy you know man i love having around you know the family and it's so much fun yeah meanwhile you know they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing behind closed doors well you're not going to go over for sunday dinner with her parents and let them monster out no that's not gonna work it's not gonna fly and i know it happens on both sides too it does i'm just saying him because in this case yeah it wasn't he john carson said we had no idea absolutely zero idea until it was too late there was no way we would think he was that type of person in 2012 vicky told the las vegas review journal that she wished she had told michelle's excuse when she was alive vicky said i never thought it would get to the point where he could take her life or would take her life i think is what is the word she used but again i the position she was in it was not an easy one yeah i don't know if any person that is tied into domestic violence realizes it could go as far as it has or maybe as far as it could that makes sense it does not because if it's already happened then they obviously would realize it could go that far i guess i i think in their mind are you talking about the person who's experiencing it or in this case the person who knows about it no the person in this case knows about it i don't think they realize it could get as bad as it yes that i understand yeah okay yeah so i i think the person experiences doesn't want to believe it's as bad as it is yeah that that that's that would make sense yeah vicky said she thought she was being a good friend by keeping quiet She said, I was the person who would keep her secrets, but some secrets you shouldn't keep. And man, I, I just, I think she's haunted. Yeah. Well, for sure. And, uh, I feel bad for her. I really do. Yeah. In her interview for the show killer among friends, Vicki recounted how at one point after his arrest, Justin called her from jail. He wanted her to remember the day she saw him in the hotel and to confirm that he was out of his mind that day. She hung up on him. I would too. Are you trying to use me to help you get some type of insanity plea or something? Justin spent years using procedural delays to avoid going to trial. He even wrote a letter to Michelle's parents, which her father said was full of excuses, but little accountability. Yeah. Shocking. Exactly. Shocking. John Carson, didn't. Didn't meet with Justin and asked him to take responsibility and stop putting off the trial on July 31st, 2017, Justin Burns agreed to plead guilty to second degree murder on September 26th. He received a sentence of 10 to 25 years. It's light. It is light. I not happy about that, but you know what? Um, I'm assuming that, uh, I'm hoping that the prosecutors, talk to John and family and yeah. And we don't know all the details, but you know, maybe their case wasn't quite as strong as they would have liked it to be. I'm assuming that's why maybe they offered up the plea deal to second degree, but you know, 10 to 25 years. Although if you spend 25 years in prison, that, that is not a joke in any way, but for what he did to her, if he were to get out in 10 years, it would be rough. That's the part I don't like is that 10 years on the front end, you know, it seems about 20 to 25. Yeah. Yeah. I feel a little bit better about that, but Justin was denied parole in 2020. He didn't attend the hearing, but John Carson still drove to Nevada and insisted the board of parole commissioners allow him to make a statement. And I'm assuming he didn't attend the hearing because yeah, it really, um, well, I guess what would it have been eight years? It was really like five years before he was sentenced. Yeah. That's a long time. Cause he really, I mean, he dragged it out for a long time. So, but he probably would have been incarcerated at the time he was denied parole for eight years. So, but you know, that would have been a travesty if he would have been paroled at eight years on June 8th, 2023. Justin Burns died by suicide in prison. He was 39 years old. His autopsy listed his cause of death as asphyxia due to strangulation. You know, um, it's hard to Harbor those things that you do to somebody. Um, when you're living in a cell, I have to think about that day in and day out. I think it's hard for some people, for some people, not all people, not all people, but for some, it is some people. I think eventually it takes its toll. Or it takes its toll for another reason that you can't stand being behind bars. It has nothing to do with that. What you did is just that you want your freedom. It also wasn't lost on to me that it's a little bit of a strange irony that they both died the same way. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he strangled her, he asphyxiated her, and then he asphyxiated himself. Yeah. I don't know if that was. I don't know if that was intentional or, I mean, there, there's not a lot of other ways I would think to do that in prison. I mean, I think that's the most common way that you hear about people doing that in prison, but John told the Las Vegas review journal after Justin's death, the rest of my life was going to be spent keeping him behind bars. I don't believe in the death penalty, but I believe that if you're sick, there's something wired wrong. He's a loose cannon. And I sincerely felt he would have murdered again. A year after Michelle's death, her family told the San Gabriel Valley Tribune that learning about her experience made them want to bring more attention to the problem of domestic violence. In 2023, her father reiterated that goal, noting that understanding of domestic violence had improved between 2010 and 2000. Okay. And I think that's true. I think it's improved, um, over the decade. I think so too, to, you know, large degrees, right? More emphasis has been placed on it. You think about, um, police getting called out for a domestic violence situation in the 1970s versus the eighties versus the nineties. If you looked at it in every decade, you would definitely see that. It's handled differently. There's much more emphasis now placed on it. Um, you know, they're not just showing up and then hearing a story and leaving like they used to. It's not going to happen. No. If somebody's got some proof, if somebody's got some marks, um, one individual is going to go anymore. Yeah. Well, at least one has to be taken. Even if they both decide they don't want to press charges. Yeah. Somebody's going, if not both are going off. So, and I have heard, um, on some of the videos I watch that a lot of times, or at least a lot of departments, they don't want you to take both. Yeah. They frown upon that because someone has to be deemed the aggressor. Yeah. And that's the person that they want taken to jail, whether that's right or wrong. I don't know, but that's what I've heard. I also think there's more resources now than there used to be to deal with the aftermath. Yeah. John found out Justin died when he received an alert about a change in his inmate status. And he called the Nevada, Nevada department of corrections. He said he cried with grief for Justin's family and with relief for his own family. He said, now two people are gone that should still be here. My daughter and him, if he hadn't done what he did, he would still be alive. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's sad, you know, people murder and, um, when really none of this had to happen. No, absolutely not. There was, there was no reason for it to happen, but it shows you this man's compassion. Oh, for sure. Right. He's shedding a tear for this guy's family who killed his daughter. Better man than me. Yeah. I mean, he's a compassionate person. Yeah. But, you know, as we wrap up this episode Gibbs, um, it's a tough one because it deals with some very sensitive issues, right? Domestic violence, very sensitive issue, suicide, another very sensitive issue. You know, I am drawn to Vicki in this case and, and the situation that she was in. You can debate whether, she did anything wrong. I don't really think she did. I think she thought she was being a good friend. I think it's exactly what she was. She was a good friend that, um, followed her friend's wishes and left it at that. And like she said, never thought that it could ever get to this point. Right. Right. And very few people do. Yeah. And they can't imagine that something like this is going to happen, but you also can really tell that she's struggling. Oh, for sure. It eats at her. I'm sure. But she needs to understand that she didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. You know, it's not her fault, but it's not, it's not going to change anything. She's going to feel that regret. And yeah, you know, that's, that's just part of this whole thing. But, uh, yeah, that's it for our episode on Michelle Carson. Uh, it's just tragic all the way around. It really is. No, no doubt about it, but that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.