Michael Douglas

Did Catherine your lovely wife? Did she know everything? All of these stories going. I, I, um, I'll be home to ask her because she, she, she just got the book two days ago and I've, I've told her, I mean this was all as I say BC before Catherine. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused, begins. Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, Michael Douglas, an absolute Hollywood icon talking about his life, his career, his new memoir, and more. Thanks guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube on Spotify, wherever you're doing it. I don't care. Just hit the subscribe button, do me a solid. Also, if you like what I do, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused, early access to every single episode, autographed merch, posters, access to our live events, and much, much more. Helping us over there helps us make more over here. I don't know if you guys have been listening or watching the podcast for a long time, if you're recent subscribers, but we're on a really good run. I can't say enough about the level of guests we've had on lately. Ben Affleck was an Alzheimer, a lot of attention for that one, but yeah, some really good stuff. And this is another one like that. Michael Douglas had never been on the podcast. This kind of came around kind of honestly at the last second. He was doing a 92nd Street Y event, and I was invited to host this. And it was such an honor because, look, a people with a certain age, we all grew up with Michael Douglas. Wall Street, basic instinct, remancing the stone. The list goes on and on. He produced one full over the kukus nest. He's been a star for decades. He of course came from Stardom. His dad was Kirk Douglas, Spartacus himself. And he has laid it all out there in a new memoir. It's called One Hell of a Ride. I've read the whole thing. I absolutely tore through it. It's a great read. Tons of amazing stories in there. And this was a real treat. We welcomed into the 92nd Street Y for a live event. This was taped on the publication day of One Hell of a Ride. So it was a real honor to kind of have this moment with Michael as the book was coming out into the public as it was getting a ton of attention. There's a lot of like kind of salacious kind of gossipy things in the book, like about, you know, his relationships. He's very open and honest about, you know, his substance abuse issues, his affairs with, you know, the likes of Jean Triple Horn and Kathleen's Herner, his troubles with his marriage. But to be honest, for me, as a geek, as a movie lover, it's all about the movies and the stories. So we really concentrate most of this conversation on that stuff, because that's what I care about. I wanted the stories about Wall Street and basic instinct and Oliver Stone and Danny DeVito and all that cool stuff. So that's all in here. He's an absolute icon. And I'm thrilled he finally came on the podcast. And this was the perfect time to support his new memoir. Excuse me. All right. Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Seg Infused today on the show. We don't throw this word around lightly. He's an icon. Michael Douglas is on the show talking about his memoir, his life, his career. It's all there. Thanks guys as always for checking out the podcast. Remember, hit that subscribe button on YouTube on Spotify. However, you're doing it up to you. And remember, if you like what I do, check out our Patreon Patreon dot com slash happy say confused. We give early access to every single episode bonus materials when we can hear those New York sirens. That's that's on be honest. You don't get that on smart list guys. But yeah, check out the patreon patreon dot com slash happy say confused. Honestly supporting us over there really does help us make more stuff over here. And I have to say, I am so, so, so proud of the conversations we've been having the level of guests we've been having. One Banger after another James McAvoy Ben Affleck, an all-timer of a guest coming up soon. Some really big ones. John Goodman is coming up on the show. We've take that already. Another all-timer. We're just we're in a groove. So I hope you guys are enjoying what we're doing over here. And this this episode is a big one for me. You know, people of a certain age. I think we all came up loving and adoring Michael Douglas movies. I mean, everything basically think falling down Wall Street, romancing the stone. I mean, in the late 80s, 90s, he was as big as you got. It was like him and Harrison Ford basically as leading men. He had a run. He had an amazing run. And he's been like prolific pretty consistently through the decades. He's lived quite a life. It's all there in his new memoir. One hell of a ride. I highly recommend the book. I tore through it. Absolutely adored it. It's got all the stories. He's got the kind of gossipy stuff. If you like that kind of thing, like he's open about his troubles, his substance abuse issues, his marital problems, the affairs he had with some notable co-stars. For me, though, honestly, it's mostly about the movie stories. And there are tons in there. And that's what this conversation really covers. It's those big, major movie moments in his life that I just wanted the stories from. He'd never done the podcast before. So I had to go there with him for this. And this was a treat. This was a live event in New York City at 92nd Street. Why this was taped on the publication day of one hell of a ride. So it was like, honestly, a big honor for me not only to have Michael on the show, but to kind of like really usher in this book into the world. It's got a ton of headlines. Maybe you've seen it all over the internet, all over your Instagram feed. It's certainly all over mine. But maybe you haven't actually had a chance to sit down and listen or watch the conversations with him. And this is, this is a really good one. So I hope you guys check it out. I take you now to a live event taped at the 92nd Street. Why it's me and Michael Douglas. Enjoy. Hello, everybody. Well, again, welcome to the 92nd Street. Why you are in for a treat tonight. My name is Josh Harlow. It's a host of podcasts called Happy Second Fuse. And whether you know it or not, you're inside of it right now. I apologize. No, this is like such a special treat for me. This gentleman has never been on my podcast. He's a regular here at the 92nd Street. Why he's been here before. But never for an occasion like this. To know and love film and TV for the last five decades is to know and love Michael Douglas. He is an absolute legend. He is one of the great actors, one of the great movie stars, one of the great producers. And it's all there in this remarkable memoir. One hell of a ride. It is also one hell of a read. Let me tell you that. I very much enjoyed this. You were going to absolutely adore it. And today is the publication day. He's celebrating it with us. So please make him feel welcome, everybody. The legend that is Mr. Michael Douglas. Everybody, come on out, sir. You don't have stage fright anymore, do you? Because back in the day, Michael used to have stage fright. Is that true? Yes, well, that was very true back in the day, but despite just doing it again. But yeah, when I first started in the University of California, Santa Barbara, my first performance is I had a waste basket off stage and every time just before I go on. Shall we get one case tonight? We'll be all right. We got this. Congratulations, sir. I hope you feel the love tonight, and I hope you feel the love out there. I feel like my internet algorithm is all Michael Douglas right now. Everywhere. This book is everywhere. Today is the publication day. So congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. And Josh, thank you so much for doing this. And for all of you showing up, I really appreciate it. It's nice to see you after that. Thank you. It's, um, it is a remarkable story. And I have to say, like, look, you've done a lot of press tours in your career, and you've talked a lot about films. But this is a really open and exposing moment, I would imagine for you. Does it feel like you're kind of putting yourself out there in a different way than you ever have before? Oh, yeah, they're very much so. You know, it's one thing to have a character in a film. But when you make the decision to tell a story, a personal story about yourself, it's uncomfortable, it's nervous. I like to think that my films have always been most of them trying to be as truthful as possible. And I am fascinated with that gray area, the good and the bad and somebody, and I certainly have seen it in myself. So, yeah, it was a very kind of nervous feeling over the past 18 months as it's coming together. And I'm quite honestly been blown away. We've been getting a lot of really good reviews and response to being open about being a bad boy. We'll talk about the good, the bad and the ugly tonight. But let me read actually an excerpt from one of those reviews. The New York Times absolutely gave you a rave. They said, quote, "Some celebrity memoirs skate over the good stuff, offering a highlight reel more than an in-depth film." feature, one hell of a ride as a blockbuster, intimate and uncensored worthy of a bucket of popcorn with extra butter. New York Times! Is that as meaningful a review as you've ever gotten? Were you the kind of person that felt the reviews the good and the bad over your career? I haven't looked at it closely. The film is reviews over a period of time, but when it came to a book, and I must say when I saw that, yes! Such a feeling because you're not sure. You really aren't. You share things that are uncomfortable, and except who you are, but I guess that's the privilege you get when you get into your 80s. So this book, so here's the cover for those you can see, and then here's the back. This is Michael from another day. I said before and after. What would you say to the guy on the back? What do you remember? What do you miss about that guy? What would you say to that guy? It's a good-looking smile. I wish he was as relaxed as that. I don't know how I was able to keep up with it because so many told me very early in my acting career, said the camera can tell when you're lying. The camera, it'll tell when you're lying. I used to get so, wow. So I had this sort of method-acted time where I was trying to wipe the character that make up off your face and feel it like what you read, but you can't do that all the time. So I really wasn't until I think it's for it. Like, they had a traction. Where I said, okay, here's the character. Let me start the character. And I said, okay, he's a lawyer in New York. Okay, I could be a lawyer in New York. He's married, he has. He's a falterer. And so I said, well, wait a minute. And then this bomb came over me. I said, acting is all about lying. It's about lying. It's convincing you and audience that you're telling the truth when you're telling a lie. And once I understood that, it really freed me up so much more in my acting. You also need us to say you had an absolute icon in your house to live up to. I mean, Kirk Douglas, one of the all-time greats. And I mean, that hangs over your life and career. Your career, especially as you were starting out, I would imagine, was he encouraging of you being an actor? As I understand it, like the first performance, he wasn't necessarily super encouraging of what he saw at first. Well, he came up, God bless him. I grew up, my mother and father got separated when I was five. And I grew up in East Coast with my mother. And my father was on the West Coast. And I went to sort of private school with Alan Stephenson here in New York. And then a later, I went to Chote. And it was all, you know, all boys, you know, this is late 1950s or '60s. And so, when I came to the end of Chote, where I was in a go, and I was pretty tight, you know, I was pretty tight. And you go, when do you remember, you go to your high school college counselor. And they always reminded me of like travel agents. You know, they had these brochures. You know, you'd go through and you'd sit there and they'd go through the brochures. And I went through as one way, when they stopped. Just out low Ivy League buildings, nothing. And it said campus by the sea. And then I had on the cover. And then there was this guy carrying a surfboard. And he had two girls next to him in two-piece bathing suits. You were from back East in 1963. You hadn't seen a two-piece bathing suit. So I said, I want to go there. So Santa Barbara, so, of course, dad was wonderful. He was a dad thought, oh, my son wants to be close to me. I was about to decide to be close. And so, I got out there. And I mentioned it was the biggest change in my life. It was the early '60s. It was a very exciting time on the West Coast. You see system. You see system exploding. It was growing very fast. Great people, San Francisco, the whole scene there. And within about a year, a year and a half, I went from being a preppy to a hippie. With all of the things. And then I enjoyed my hippie life. And then I called in the second year at a college counselor. I said, you got to declare a major. I go, what? You got to declare a major in something. You can't just keep taking child of education courses. So, I don't know, man. And I said, theater. I figured theater. My mother was an actress. My father. That was maybe easiest thing to do. So, I just took theater. And then started that. And then I never acted before in my life. And so, the first show came up. I got a messenger speech. And much to do about nothing. And I remember my entrance in the show was down an aisle. And I kept down the aisle as the messenger. And sure enough, I had to stop right by my father. And they talked me how to stand. You know, they showed me how to stand the right way. I ran and I said, my Lord. And then I went, yeah, they would say, think about it. Think about it. Think about it. And I ran out. I gave the only thing, what did he say? And dad came backstage afterwards. He said, Michael, you were terrible. And I think, Dan, see your question, John. I think he was so relieved. He said, well, I don't have to worry about this guy becoming an actor. A little didn't know. I have to. So, I was a grinder. You know, I can't say, can't be naturally. And I had a lot of stage fright. I don't know why I used to do it. I used to fight to get out there, but by the end of school, I left. And dad came to see a play and said, son, you were good. More happy, second views coming up. 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And you feel, was it as much baggage being a TV star as having that Kirk Douglas attached to your name? Did you feel that weight going into audition rooms and trying to jump start a film career? Well, you got to remember after I left Streets of San Francisco to produce "Cuckoo's This," one of the "Cuckoo's This," which is a whole story. And by the way, you have to help me in Josh with time. No, we're going to keep you here for five hours. I didn't tell you that. I guess, I don't know if you all know the story, but on "Cuckoo's This," but my father had just done Spartacus. And he had a production company. And he found in Galilee's this book by Ken Casey, called "Wonderful Over The Cuckoo's This." And he acquired the rights and he made it into a play. By Dale Wesson wrote the play. And he came back to New York at his height right after Spartacus to play our "Pimic Murphy" in the play. The play didn't work. It didn't happen for whatever reasons. It was maybe ahead of its time. And his idea was originally that it would work out that he would develop and do it in a picture. It didn't work out. And then for many years, he tried to develop it. And then he decided he was going to sell it. And by that time, I had actually worked read the book in my second year of English classic American novels and was in my episodic television. The quick jump was I did five movies in a row that were turkeys, all turkeys. So I was in episodic television doing that. Streets came up. And I said to Dad, I just had me in the office and I saw that he was selling it. I said, "Please don't, Dad, it's a great story. Don't sell it, look, give me a chance. Let me run with it. I'm going to try to get you to the part we'll get production together in the picture." And he said, "Okay, son." And you're just in your mid 20s here, right? This is-- 23, 24. That's crazy. You know, so he said, "Okay, so I'll give you a shot. Forgive for a year." So I'm up and I go through his files about who showed any interest. And I find this guy, Saul Zance, who's in Berkeley, California, has his own fantasy records as a jazz label of myelostrum prestige. But the one thing he had is he just signed a rock group called the Goliwarks. So he said, "He hired this group called the Goliwarks, so we got to change your names." So they changed their names to Creedence Clearwater Revival. So I mean, all this jazz labels on one side, but Creedence is what played for Cuckoo's Nest. And so anyway, I got in contact with him. And he's in Berkeley, California. I'm shooting the series in San Francisco. And we figured out what had happened. So I acquired the rights to it. I came back to Dad's dad. We got a deal. Made a deal with it. And then we looked for a director with my partner, Saul Zance, who'd be fine. Meelost, for him, amazing. And he seems like he's perfect. And then Meelost tells me, Michael, I love your father, but this is 20 years now, later, he's too old. He's not right. So I had to do the hardest thing I ever had in my life, which is go to my father and say, Dad, we got the money. We're going to make the movie, but you're not going to be in it. And that was rough. That was really rough. Do you remember how vividly do you remember that conversation, like how he reacted? There was a lot of conversation. It was him just looking at me. And wondering, I said, in wondering whether I'd done everything and everything. And I had, I tried. And so-- but he'd give me the rights. And we'd sign things that was on the way. But I realized now, you have maybe four good parts in your entire career. Maybe five, but you can count them on one hand. And our people, more people, certainly one of them. So that was a really hard moment. But I left the series after four seasons. I had a five-year contract. And God bless Carl Maldon and Quinn Martin, the producer, because in these days, they'd never would let you out of the produce. To go do the picture, we produced the picture. And the best moment was when I brought Dad up to see it in Berkeley, California, our final cut. Before he saw the picture, we came out afterwards. He said, son, it's a great job. It's really a good picture. And Jack, he was wonderful. And so I thought, oh, thank goodness. And so he was proud of it. But over the years, whenever he's wanted to, we always say, you never let me play that part. And then I said, yeah, Dad, but you never made more money in your life. Look at all these Oscars it got. Look at how much money it made. Yeah, it was the right call, but that's-- I can't even imagine that kind of conversation. So the producing career takes off off of in this kind of interim period of your TV career. And then we get China's syndrome. We get romance in the stone, which establishes you as kind of like this bonafide kind of action adventure star. At that point, was there a point that you remember feeling like I have now established myself as my own man? As my own-- Oh, Josh, all I was established was I had four hits as a producer in a row. I had four hits as a producer. And after, after a cook who's less, I had a studio deal as a producer. But I had films-- I was not an approved actor. So I had films I produced like a star man with Jeff Bridges, right? I wanted to play that part. You got an Oscar nomination for that. He just Jeffed it, yeah. But no, I was still the television actor. And it's hard to explain because of streaming now. The separate rails, television actors, and movie actors were on. And television was really treated much more secondary factors. So even after those, and even like romance in the stone, I try to get brutal for it, you know, and try to get it. And so I came in on the back end. So I was known as a producer. I think after those four pictures, I'm Sid Scheinberg, who was running Universal, brought me into his office. It asked me if I wanted to run the studio, run the film division of the studio. And I was so taken aback because I never even thought of myself as this producer. But I was a successful producer. I said, well, no, I mean, I liked to act. And he said, well, after three years, you could act, you know. I said, no, that's not going to work out. But, you know, it didn't, it really, to get the credibility, it really wasn't until the year of failure traction with, followed three months later by Wall Street coming out. So failure traction was the biggest grossing picture, second biggest grossing picture of the year, and then Wall Street and getting the Oscar. And, you know, that had been nominated for three Oscars, and never won, and I think me winning that Oscar. Well, first nomination, I remember it meant so much to me, because the nominated committee is your fellow actors, sure. So for me, it was the first time as a film actor, or was a man, I'm getting nominated by my fellow actors. So I remember how important that nomination was to me, and it gave me the kind of credibility as an actor, the confidence that I didn't have before. And then, you know, winning was, was gravy. I mean, Gordon Gecko, one of the all-time great characters and performances, truly, in history, and look, Oliver Stone is famously a button pusher of a director, he likes to provoke his actors, and it's seemingly, he'd definitely try that with you. And I guess it worked, because it's an amazing performance, but can you take us a little bit inside that production, and in particular, the iconic speech, the Greta's Good speech, did that read to you as what it was going to become? Well, I just recently, this has been recently found out that I was not the first choice, which was a bit of a shock. But I know, reading Oliver's book, Warren Beatty, was the first person he went to for the role of Gecko. And then he went, and then he went to an officer and a gentleman, Richard Geer. Richard Geer? Thank you. He went to Richard Geer, and before he got to me. So all along, when I first met with Oliver, he said, well, why'd you choose me? He said, well, I wanted an actor who had some business actement. And you know, if I produced yours, OK, that makes sense. Later, I was a third choice. But it was a great script. I mean, Oliver, it was a really, really-- he had a Sally Weiser. It was a wonderful, complicated script with a lot of dialogue. And yeah, Oliver's got a tough way of working. I was in the picture for about two weeks. We've been shooting for about two weeks before. It was a knock on my trailer door. And Oliver came down and he said, hi. And he looked at me and said, how are you doing? I said, yeah, OK, I said, are you doing drugs? I said, no, I'm not doing drugs at all. Because you look like you never acted before in your life. Gordon Gakub. Well, I guess I never go look at-- I mean, the day he's in stuff is the only she the bad stuff, so I don't like to do that. But there's a problem. I said, well, I guess I better go look at a couple of the scenes. So I go into the editing room. I look at a couple of scenes. They're both in Charlie Sheen's seduction scene in the back of a car in the 21-club scene. And I'm looking at them. I'm super critical. I think they're pretty good. You know, it's going to be pretty good. So I come back to Oliver and say, all right. He says, yeah, they are, aren't they? I said, what are you doing? What are you doing? And Oliver was ready for me to hate his guts for the rest of that picture. It would make me just that much angrier. that much of an edge. And I got a thank you for these. You'd want to look at all of his films, you know, you start with Jimmy Woods and El Salvador. Tom Cruise and Fourth of July, Charlie Sheenam Platoon, Kevin Costner, JFK, Val Kilmer, and the doors, he's gotten the best performances out of actors. And the difference, if you would ask me, the major difference between him and every other actor, is he's a motherfucker. He's, he is, and most directors are like the patriarch figure, you know, actors who are all insecure people. And he, and patriarch, the director takes care of them. Oliver's like, he's back in Vietnam, and you're in the trenches with him, and you better be as good as he is. So I, I adore him, and I admire him. And I just actually did a little part in the pictures. He's got called White Lies, which is a biography of his life, and I'm playing his father. Well, there's karma for you. There's something there. 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(upbeat music) - So in this series of this insane run that you have from the late 80s on for the next 10, 15 years, it's not only are you in a series of amazing films, but there's zeitgeist movies. There are movies that become part of the cultural conversation. It's fatal attraction, it's falling down, it's basic instinct, and they inspire conversation, they inspire controversy, they're all debated, they're protests for all these movies for various reasons. That must have been such a high to go from kind of like not only great film to great film, but zeitgeist film to zeitgeist film, to feeling like you're at the center of culture. - Yeah, it was pretty cool. (laughing) - It was, well I'm a news junkie, you know, and I follow the news, and so, you know, for a long time going way back, I felt this struggle of rules between men and women, it's just an overall feeling that people are having a tough time finding their positions, and I go back to actually casting on Cuckoo's Nest when no actress wanted to play Nurse Ratchet, because back then, in the women's movement, the idea of a woman being the villain, was not acceptable yet, and so all Angel Lanzberry, Colleen, Duhurst, we had five different major actresses thrown that part down, until we found Louise. So I've always had a little sense of what was going on, and, but the thing you have to realize, is you gotta have a good script rather than a good message. I mean, if you can get a message in there, that's great, but I'm thinking one of the issues that problems been having more recently in films, is there trying to get messages out there rather than make the film? - You also had this run of, I mean, forgive me, but you were kind of like the king of the sexy thriller. You had like all of these films, it was disclosure and basic instinct, and you're doing like, sometimes like really extreme scenes, like right in the heyday of this kind of like era for that kind of film, a day before intimacy coordinators. Do you have thoughts on that? Like, this is the era of the intimacy coordinator. You didn't do it with that back then. - No, no, we just did it the old fashioned way, you know. - All worked out of it. - I mean, there's an art to sex scenes in films. It's not easy to do things like shadowing, people on the top and this and that, but the big thing with sex scenes is trust, and as long as, and I'm say the lady trusting me, obviously I trust her, but like a dance, like a dance move you're taking the lead. And if you just talk it out slowly, kiss, kiss, by looking at you, is it right to touch your breast? Yes, all right, my mom touched your breast, kiss, kiss. And you do it and it's just like choreographing a fight scene. It really is, you start very slowly, very slowly and this like that. And then an action is put on the moon. And makes it all, makes it look like it really happens. But it's the trust issue. And I always felt, it's awkward enough for ladies, in terms of mostly being surrounded by a male crew and everything, especially in those days, to make sure that they were as comfortable as possible. And also, Josh, my producing hat and because what I realized it separated me from a lot of people was I really didn't worry about the part. I mean, if I found a script, I just read the script and I loved it, you know, it made me scared. Whatever hell the story was, I loved it. Then I would go back and look at my part. But I've always thought, you know, your part roles, one small part of the whole. And so what you really need in the Southern Paul Newman used to talk about a lot. You want better actors around you. You want the best you can get because it's the whole thing that matters. I mean, I'd rather be good in a little movie than lousy in a big part. Well, then that reminds me of a few other films, I mean, I think of something like Traffic where you're a big part of the Ensemble there. And even something like, honestly, one of my favorite films, and you are the lead in it, co-lead, is the American president. But it also, that movie works, of course, it's you in a net, but it works because of Martin Sheen and additive your Smith and just down the line. It's amazing Ensemble. And that's a famous Aaron Storken script, of course. And I always think, I think of so many iconic scenes from that. But I also think of like that final speech that I'm Andrew Sheppard and I'm the president. Do you remember that speech in particular, that dialogue of Aaron Storken? Well, I remember it because the movie is made 35 years ago. And what Andrew Sheppard said then is prevalent to the situation now. So it's exciting. On one side, it's very depressing on the other. One movie that happens to be one of my favorites that's a really ensemble picture and never achieved the kind of commercial success was a film called Wonder Boys. And if anybody, if they ever get a chance, it's a great picture. It's Robert Dalley, Jr. Francis Big Dormit. Toby McGuire, myself-- - Directed by Curtis Hanson. - Yeah, Curtis Hanson directed it. I never quite understood why, but it's a charming shaggy dog. - Connecting to your old hippie days a little bit. That guy was kind of a little bit of an actor, right? - Yeah, that's right. - He's like doing after, right? - I'm speaking of which, like, you can tell him a centafile. I could talk to you endlessly about every single film in your filmography. I do want to like talk a little bit about the stuff that's in this book that some of it's making headlines is like you talking about the difficulties in your life outside of your career. Your first marriage that was struggle seems like right from the beginning, there are difficulties with drugs, with Cameron, your son. You didn't need to write a book that covered that. You could have just been like, this, my life in the movies. Was it hard to kind of like go back and really kind of relive all of these difficult parts? Yeah. Yes, I mean, it's, you know, we always like to try to forget the more painful parts, but I didn't really think there was any sense in writing a book, especially one that, you know, I want my grandchildren to understand without, you know, sharing the whole story. And I think part of the success, actually, and this is the part I was sort of nervous about, terms of becoming out and having that kind of vulnerability. But people seem to appreciate it and understand the roles. Yeah, I, I mean, one of the first things that shocked me when I was working on it, when I met my first wife, Leandra, Jimmy Carter's inauguration, January 20th, 1977, and I married her on March 20th. I married her 60 days later. Well, I, I couldn't believe it. And I realized it, and I, you know, the invitations and everything. So I must have asked Leandra to get married about 30 days after, after I knew her. And so, needless to say, we had a lot of grounded covers. And she was a beautiful lady. Obviously, it was infatuated with her. But we had, she never knew anything about Hollywood. And I was already into the late '70s, early '80s, into my alcohol and drug phase. She was nothing, nothing about any of that. So we had, we had our struggles. And for instance, the, the realization that I had an affair with Kathleen Turner, and romance in the stone, we were separated. Deandra and I at the time, but still that happened. And I, well, hell, I'm selling a book, man. I figured I gotta have a couple of the stories about. That was one of those stories that people didn't know. And I told you, I knew it, I knew it, you know. - Well, it's even also basic instincts. Like I feel like everybody's like, oh, maybe him and Sharon. - Yeah. - She in Triple Horn. That's why Sharon was my beard. (laughing) - Now, here's my question. Did Catherine, your lovely wife, did she know everything? All of these stories going-- - I, I, I, I'll be home to ask her because she, she just got the book two days ago and I've, I've told her, I mean, this was all as I say, B.C. before Catherine. (laughing) So, you know, and, you know, we have a 25 year age difference. So I'm looking at some of these films like with Kathleen, Catherine would have been seven years old. So, you know, I don't, I don't feel bad. I think she understands. - Yeah. - And on the, you know, the alcohol, the drug stuff, I mean, do you see that in your, like when you see certain roles, do you see what you were going through personally that you were struggling? Is there a certain film of yours that was compromised you think by what you were going through? - I don't think so. There might have been, but the trouble with alcohol and drugs is as long as you show up for work, you know, think you have a problem, right? So as long as you show up in the morning, this has always been, what I'm, I'm here, you know, I have a problem. So, and again, career, career was the most important thing. In many of the lives, at least certainly with my life and my ambition was going on. And certainly was a difficult effect on my first marriage with the Andrew because I was working all the time. And the fact that you could have a function. But then it was really the culmination I think of dealing with my son's problems. And then my stepfather, we even talked about this, but my mom remarried when I was 12. My dad remarried when I was about seven. And was my stepmother for 65 years. And I was really fortunate because the four of them loved each other. They, they get the other head dinners together. And there was no friction between my mother or father after the divorce. And I think that really helped me so much. And so I've preached to people a lot of times about, you know, step parents are fantastic. I'm sure there's some nasty ones out there which make movies about the reality for most of them to assume, you know, out of their love for their spouse, they assume the responsibility of somebody else's kids. And so Bill Derrod, who my father was my stepfather, that my father said, Bill, and Tony, Bill was your son, your father. I'm so grateful to Bill, your stepfather for raising you and living back east. So at that time, right before Bill passed away. And I loved him dearly and the whole thing was too much in the marriage. So I went to rehab, thank goodness. I mean, I had a few friends that were advising me. Michael might be a good idea to check in. And so that was very helpful. - I mean, I can't imagine the complex series of emotions connected to your son and who has his own struggles then, right? With drugs and eventually ends up in prison for over seven years, which I mean unfathomable for a parent, I would imagine. So I would imagine you've gone through all the cycles of grief and guilt. And thankfully, it seems I've come out the other side. He's in a good place now. But you must have had time to reflect on that whole journey in the writing of this book. - Oh yeah, I mean, it's not a pretty picture. You wonder how young or how early he was when he saw me acting out. When the influence I might have had. But the reality is that there's a gene. There is a gene, there's a risk gene. Certain families out there of the Kennedys for when you look at who like to take risks and they can go the wrong way. And yeah, Cameron had a reading, but he has had a really rough time. He's out the other side. I have two beautiful grandchildren with him. I'm proud to say they're all three of my children or actors. And they're good, I mean. I feel like my father, they can shake him my head. You really want to do this, you really do, but they do. And you get through it, versus just why I gave it a title that I did the book. - I mean, another big adversity you faced, and I'm sure everybody in this room can relate to it, is you faced cancer. And that was, you were diagnosed, I believe, about 16 years ago, and you talk about it openly and about the struggle there. And you also say that, it made you a better actor. It made you kind of a better human being. You've kind of found the silver lining in that very difficult journey. Can you explain what you mean when you say, why it's kind of like made you the better man that you are today? - Because my career was no longer the most important thing in my life, my family was, and the people closest to me. And that's continued after the 16 years, since I first had the cancer. I was sort of similar to my father's case. He had a helicopter crash. I mean, he was 72. He was with a friend with a helicopter. They were going up, and the pit's aerobatics, which is one of the tail draggers, was taking you off and couldn't see. And hit the helicopter at about 40 feet in the air. The pits were down and exploded. A 18-year-old pilot was killed with the instructor. And my father's helicopter fell about 40 feet down. Rotas still going gasoline pouring out, and it didn't catch fire. And he was, he didn't break a single bone in his body. It was a crook darkness. Not a single bone, but he was black. He's completely his body. I never seen his black entire butt. The hospital, and he started thinking, why am I alive? And this 18-year-old kid is dead. And so he began, I returned to his Talmudic roots, and got together with a rabbi every week. And began studying the Old Testament. And at 72, he lived 103. His third act. He was a different man. Because he too, and his career was now secondary. And his kindness and his generosity, his foundation, giving everything he's given away. And his thoughtfulness, his ability to listen. He totally changed. He's a man in our relationship, really bonded. And I, in my own way, have felt that coming out on the other end of cancer. And realizing what is so important, and particularness, the cognitive world, we're in right now, why? I was born in 1944, so I'm not the war, but this is by far the most complicated, difficult time I can remember, not only in this country, but on the planet. And so for me, you know, the only way to make any sense of it was to go back to LaRouche to say, you've got to start with your family, you know, and remind yourself, I know, I all got problems, but sometimes you learn not to make the biggest effort to a stranger and take the person closest to you for granted. But, you know, every day to make that and from the family to your community, realizing, you know, those people who run for town council, maybe democracy is complicated. And it really realized how much more effort, when you look at our forefathers, how much time and effort they spent into maintaining, creating this democracy. It's a beautiful system, a beautiful system, but we really got to work at it. I feel like I just got a bonus scene from the American president, I got like the sequel, sequel moment. Right from it. President, get up. Thank you. Right, right. I'm sorry. We've got some questions from our wonderful audience. This one is actually one I wanted to ask as well. When you look back on your career, is there a part that you regret turning down? No, I've got a lot that I'm glad I did, but I don't really have, it was impossibly in the very beginning of doing love story, but that was, but I didn't really have it right on your, but he was sure he was going to do it, but no, I don't have anything. Is there, does anyone come to mind you've worked with either on screen or producing, you feel hasn't received the acclaim or recognition that they deserved? Who was an unsung great talent, you feel that you've worked with? Well, she's here to get an honorary Oscar this year, and I would be Glenn Close, who's been nominated, like eight times, and there's an extraordinary, extraordinary actress. So I'm happy that she's going to get that. There's so many, really, really good actors out there, and it's just a question of, as I say, to get one of those four or five times, you get the good part. You still tight with Mr. Davido, with Danny Davido? You go way back without God. Still tight. He was so sweet. He read the book one night, he's not a good sleeper, so he was really in the book all night. He was like, he's tight, he's like, he's bawling, he touched him, and he made a lot to me, but he knows me. We were roommates, you know, right out of it, and I was out of college in New York here, and so I was very, very sweet. He was a lovely letter from him. Let me ask you a couple of other not-so-random items on your filmography. You devote some time because it's tied to your cancer journey to behind the candelabra, which is a remarkable performance working with Stephen Soderbergh and Matt Damon. Did you feel out on a whim on that one? That's a bold swing. That's a big-- Well, choice. Well, yeah. But it was, you know, I was coming out of my cancer wondering if I ever was going to work again, and God bless Stephen Soderbergh, you know, we had done traffic together before. And it was just--it was so wonderful. I love playing character parts. I've always hidden behind wanting to do more character work. So we had a way to year because I lost so much weight to kind of gain some. And remember, we got together before the picture was started, and I had threw a lunch at a friend's house out in Malibu at the beach, and Stephen Soderbergh was there, and my kids were there. I know Stephen was looking at me, and I'm not sure if we had talked, it was a complicated piece. And all of a sudden, my son Dylan started going through the thing, "Well, thank you very much for doing all the things, and all of a sudden Soderbergh realized how much rehearsal I must be doing that his kid is here playing the role, and he gave me a lot more security." But we had a great time on that, and we had, I mean, when Roblo came in, I was a psychiatrist, all the uplift and everything, Matt and I, "Hey, how about--this is a few years ago. How brave is Matt? The prime of his career, right? You know, going with me for the rear, you know, I don't know what I'm supposed to write. I mean, we're shooting that scene, and Stephen Soderbergh is also the cameraman and the director and is figuring out how to stage it, so he's like, "What, you're lying for us to bed, and Matt, you're behind, I'll be down low like this, I'll say, "K, okay, and action." And blah, blah, blah, blah. Matt takes off going, and I'm supposed to be taking poppers, and just like that, we do the whole scene, and then he, all right, cut, and he puts the camera down, he takes his glasses off, and he says, "I have no idea what to do." No notes. There's one film that's actually--I don't even know if you cover in this book, but I love it so much. You talk about iconic filmmakers, David Fincher on the game. That's a great movie. I really love that movie. Did you--? Did you and David get along? I mean, he's a tough cooking himself. Yeah. No, we did. He just--he does so many takes. I know, yeah. He does--no, I mean--no, I admire him so much, and I love that picture. I have a big check on the book. I have 10 chapters on 10 different movies, because when I first started producing, I read a book called "Memo" by David O'Sullsnick, which is the greatest book to read if you want to learn about producing. This is all about his notes and all the pictures that he produced that go on with the wind and the others, which gives you an idea of what a producer can do. And so that was a big help. So in the middle of the book, I got 10 chapters on different movies starting from the very beginnings of a book and understand how they start and create and sort of an education on that. And unfortunately, when I say, "Well, I realize how many good pictures--?" You made too many damn good movies. The game and the game and Black Rain, which I liked a lot, Black Rain, we were not included. I'm wonderboys. You have enough for volume two. I've always wanted that shirt that Sean Penn presents you to at the end. I was left for dead in Mexico, and I was like, "Oh, was this a LazyT shirt?" I've been looking for that online for years. You also, I mean, just like as a comic book geek, it was fun to see you pop up in the Ant-Man films in recent years. And those have those unique challenges, obviously, even in that last one, green screen, the whole thing. Is it true that you asked to be killed off in the last Ant-Man film? I would have been killed off after the second one, but let me-- no, after the cancer, you know, and after having a behind the candelabra, there was a moment, I said, "Well, what have I done? What am I interested in?" And comedy, I am such a fan of comedy, and I'm just so curious, and resent the fact that what Oscar time comes, comedians are never acknowledged. And yet, we all love our friends that are funny. We all cherish them, this is not that many of them. And, you know, so what makes comedy? So when Chuck Laurie came to me behind, yeah, with the Kaminsky method, with Alan Arkin, I said, "Man, what a chance to work with two comedy geniuses to be." And I would watch Alan Arkin talk about Jewish, Jewish humor. And you know, Alan Arkin only had to-- he was wonderful, so I said, "Okay, that takes share of-- I feel like I've learned more about comedy." Then I said, "I've never done a green screen movie." I said, "I've never-- so I said, "I like what my age is. I like to do one of these green screen movies to see what they like, you know, because it's amazing. It's nothing. Just a green screen to show you the pictures once you look like, when it's all finished. It's hard acting, you know? It's really hard. You weren't-- You weren't while you were-- All right. It's coming at you there, this and that, you know. And so we did Ant Man, Paul Rudd was a wonderful actor, a lovely group. And then, you know, you can't get out of it. I was like reading the fine print, "Oh my God, they've got the fine print." And then finally, I had never done a period movie, "Oh, my career, I've never done a period movie." And the Franklin series, the Ben Franklin series came up for the year that was in 2023. And then I kind of called it quits. I said, you know, I finished, I said, well, I'll take your rest. And I took a rest for a while. And I loved it. I just-- And I realized I'd been working really hard, Josh, for over 60 years, you know? And so I'm taking off now for a while, about a year and a half. And then Shane Salerno, who co-wrote this book with, was a screenwriter. And when I was in the hospital, I read in the book, one of the things that was weird, but I had cancers, people don't like to, you know, I didn't get many visits. People, they're a little over the hair stage four, you know, it's like, you don't know whether it's supposed to say goodbye, or, you know, this-- but Shane, who I didn't remember, I remember he'd be kidding me, right? He started writing with his notes, you can be like-- They really meant a lot to me. And then over the years, he kept saying, "You should write a book." I said, "Your story's amazing, man." No, no, no. And then after about a year and a half of this resting up, I thought about it, and I realized God, between my father and I, we got, you know, 80 years in the business, 120, 130 movies and kind of a legacy, and really not any other families were quite like this before, and now my kids' rockters and so. And then also the big thing was memory. I said, "If I could do this, my memory's not that good in the past." And so this allowed you to go back and rediscover these memories and the friendship, so it all came together and so it's been 18 months, and I'm really proud, happy, the way it turned out. No, we're loving all the stories. Hello, everybody again. And truly, I know you guys all have the books. This is the tip of the iceberg. It's an amazing read, and it's an amazing life well-lived. Every happy, second-fused episode in my podcast ends with some profoundly random questions, Michael. Are you ready for some random questions? I hope so. We'll see. We'll do a dog or a cat person, dog. Do you collect anything? I used to, well, when I was a kid, I collected stamps, and then when I made so many of the cookers' nests, I collected Hudson River School paintings, and since then, no. Have you ever been a video game player and arcade game back in the day? No video game you've enjoyed. No, that's fine. That's a good video game. No, it was a comic book guy. We forgive you. What's the wallpaper of the background on your phone? Is my old picture of my kids, it should be updated. I wouldn't imagine this happens to you, but are you ever mistaken for another actor? Who's the last actor you were mistaken for? That's a good question. No, well, sometimes I get up, let me tell you his quick story. So dad, before he passed away, he was, say, Michael, Michael. I'm looking at one of my movies on television the other night, right? I'm looking at the movie Michael. I can't even remember this word is. And then I look at it again and I say, wait a minute, that's Michael. That's not me. So I'll get people to get excited and they go, "Kirk, I said no, he's dead." You were great as part of this, you were amazing. And I do see, I must say, even the older I get, I see tremendous resemblance. You see it in the mirror sometimes when you catch yourself, you see it? No, I see it in photographs. I don't look at myself in the mirror that much, Josh. That's the worst note a director has ever given you. The worst note a director's ever given me. I can tell you the best one. That's fine too. Faster. Just go faster. That's how full you like that. I'm thinking, well, everybody wins and now pick up the pace. And nothing sticks out as like, I wish I got more notes. I think too many times directors were intimidated because I was a producer. You were their boss kind. Well, I knew it so I would have loved to have gotten more helpies. I was much more insecure as an actor than I was as a producer. And in the spirit of happy second fused, who's an actor that always makes you happy? You see them on screen? You're just in a better mood. Well, Albert Finney was my inspiration. I loved Albert Finney for years. Jack, of course, is a lovely actor. There's so many, but it's also the part. It's also the part. Brian Crenson is wonderful too. I like Brian Crenson. Is there a movie that makes you sad? I remember years ago, anybody here remember a movie called Lily? Yeah, a song of love. Here's a sad song. I remember that when I was a kid, I loved two for the road. Yeah, that was a really, really sweet picture. I have to admit, Josh, I am not a large movie going for a half of a few years. I've turned you into a little bit of a sports news junkie. That's okay. All's forgiven. You make them. You don't have to watch them. Yeah. And finally, a food that makes you confused. Why do people eat that? Marmite. Oh, yeah. Marmite. I can't figure that out. My wife. I look at her. I don't know what we have in common. This is the biggest source of friction at home. The Marmite discussion. Oh, my gosh. I just said, how can you eat that? Well, good luck getting past the Marmite. Congratulations. And we're so privileged. Again, this is the day this book comes out. This wonderful book, One Hell of a Ride. You all have this copy for those folks watching at home. Check it out. It's a remarkable read. Thank you. An absolute living legend. Mr. Michael Douglass, give it up one more time, everybody. Thank you very much. Thank you. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to the show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure. Did this by Josh? There are vampires out there. They walk among you, shoulder to shoulder in the dark, heading to work, heading home, going to the bar. It's a life just like anyone else's. And I have grown used to it, to the darkness, to the moon, to the taste of blood on my tongue. But vampires are dying out. We are a fading kind. And I am the first one created in so long. And that is a dangerous thing to be. Those who came before me, elders of all stripes, they do not want to see our kind gone. And they will do anything to keep their power. And for myself, and for grace who created me, that is a sword that hangs above our heads. And the worst person of all carries our secret. And he will use it, however he sees fit. Who do you look to when things are at their darkest? From the creators of Parkdalehond comes a woodbine, a podcast about monsters, dreams, and changes, those you want, and those you never saw coming. The final season begins this fall, distributed by Realm.