Michael Clayton

[Music] Hello and thank you for joining us another episode of Y Theory. As always I am your host Ryan Angley joined as always by co-host Todd McAllen. Todd, how are you doing buddy? Ryan I'm doing excellent. Good to talk to you today. Today we are talking about Michael Clayton. Why are we talking about Michael Clayton? Why I'm gonna explain why. So sometimes we like to convince the listeners of the most interesting things that Todd and I talk about happen on the show. Sometimes that's not true. Most of the time I think it is, but sometimes it's not. We had a full-blown conversation about GoodDard and Michael Clayton and films that were evocative of SART and what would be like a SARTree in film in conformity to what we covered last time. Existentialism is humanism and none of that made it to the show. And we had this whole thing. We were talking about like Spielberg not being a SARTree in film maker, but GoodDard, like the early period, like is and then we had this thing with Gilroy. And then what do we talk about? We talk about Total Recall. I do know it was my fault because I'm the one that brought up Total Recall. Which you just can't do because it's too fun. So to talk about. But so we are we're coming back and we're having a we're having a we're going to reference. I think it's probably better to do Michael Clayton by it's you know separately. Yeah. With reference to what we discussed last week about the idea of the project and and and and deeds making of of of what you are. But so that'll be that'll be a piece of this. So I still think that conversation is relevant for how we're going to talk about Michael Clayton. But we were both ecstatic. You know, we selected this as one of our top 10 films of the last 25 26 years in that episode long ago. So we talked about that film then, but it was more praising it rather than I think an analysis. And we also to our delight found out we've never recommended it as a lesson on the show. So that's what so we're giving away what the lesson of the Michael Clayton. I rather think that the title is giving away the lesson. Yeah. Okay. So it's not you. Right. It's not you. It's not you. It's me. So no. So we're we're talking about Michael Clayton. So this is 2007 film written and directed by Tony Gilroy and we love this film the pieces. It's first film, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What do you want to say off the top? I think it's interesting. So he this is his first film. I have a lot of things to say theoretically about the film, but this is just sociological. So it's his first film. He was a writer of the born films. The only one he directed is I think the best one, the fourth one, the born legacy. And I think it's interesting. He really wanted to direct, but Sydney he showed it to Sydney Polak, who was one of the producers and also his stars in it, one of the last roles. I think it's his pen ultimate role. Yeah. For he died. So I think you can already see I think he died of pancreatic cancer. I think you can already see him looking thinner than he usually looks. And the so he he had to fight to not let Polak directed. And for some reason, Polak and the other another producer Steven Sotterberg did not get along even though Sotterberg thought Polak was this great director, but they just Paul I didn't like him or something. But that turned out to Gilroy's benefit because they were trying to decide who was going to get the final cut of the film. And Sotterberg just said, I look, I don't care, but I'd like it myself, but I just don't want Sydney Polak to get it. And Sydney Polak said the same thing. So Gilroy, so the ending would have might have gotten mucked up, but Gilroy got the final cut on it because of this what would you call a rivalry between these two really great directors that were also that were in this case just producing the film. So I like that little bit of usually I don't care. So much about the things behind the scenes, but I like that there is this kind of conflict between Sotterberg and and Polak and that it the result was the best kind of result you could have possibly. Yeah. Well usually I think I mean I'm with you on this, I tend to think especially on podcast like film podcast I've listened to where like extra diagetic information comes to be like, oh this is the reason why something happened. And now we're not like actually looking at narrative or like tensions in the diagesis or whatever. But that's extra diagetic information that like doesn't elevate the film, but like you at least shows you something that's going to be crucial for us, which is we're going to talk about like what Gilroy is trying to argue. And how it ends, right? I think how it ends is so important. And if they I almost think if it ended any other way, it would have been ruined. Right? Like almost I don't know how else you could have ended it with the same punch, which I think is going to you're going to talk about. Oh, I've got it. I've got it. We're not we're not even close. I have like a beautiful mind like that I did for this. And if it doesn't come off if you're not impressed, it's really going to hurt me, which is no pressure on you and the listeners too. Because I've put a lot of time. So you want a lot of emails about your brilliance after you? I do. I want none because that'll make me feel like it wasn't that smart. So like the people are trying to make me feel better. My subtitle for this movie, just to give a little little hint of where I'm going to go with this is if you if it had a subtitle, be Michael Clayton, Colin, saved by the left. And we're going to the I have to articulate what that means. What I mean by that. Okay. Film means by that much later. But let me just say let's start with a couple of things, right? So I think I think the the thing that we really loved about the film and the reason why we wanted to we're thinking of it in Sarter in terms is the way that he's someone who's lived a compromised life up to this point. Michael Clayton's he undergoes a total conversion at the end. And that conversion then switches his entire it turns him into an ethical being at the end of the film. I think I think that's pretty clear. And what I really like is the the fact that you don't you don't know what the exact moment is when he when he changes, right? And I think it's easy to say, oh, well, they try to kill him. And he even says this, right? I'm not the kind of guy you try to kill on the kind of guy you buy or you so blind, you can't see that. But I think that's wrong. And I think it's wrong on Sarter and grounds because Sarter this appointee makes repeatedly and toward the second part of being in second half of being in nothingness where he says it's only after you formed a new project, a project of changing your situation that the situation becomes unbearable for you. So the point is it's once it's the it's the change in the project, which then changes the actual I mean, obviously the material conditions don't change because your project changes, but your relationship to those conditions changes. Yes. And so so you could even imagine, right? Like they try to kill him. And his response is to go do what it seems like he's doing to Karen. That is shaking her down. Right? Like you could why not you could imagine that seems easy. He's a fixer, right? He's not a real lawyer. So the I think that is imaginable and that fits into the that fits totally into the Sarter and idea that no something changes about his project. And I think one of the ways that Gil Roy is show and is making us experience that is this incredible temporality of the film. Yes. Right? So it begins with the monologue of Arthur's Arthur's speech to Michael. Right? And then so to be so to be clear for people have seen the movie where we're going to get this in in dribs and drops. But so the film is one way of thinking about it, this is like there's a there's a way to understand this is kind of like a Aaron Brockovich, a civil action kind of like yeah, environmental film like a thriller thriller. Yeah, right. Where you have people who are working for a corporation and the lawyers that represent that corporation that has a a weed killer that has been killing people. And so there's it's it's it's it's it's it's easy to draw. I'll give you some extra diagetic information here on this. It's easy to say like, oh, this is like a Monsanto roundup kind of a kind of a thing like that's the inspiration for for this film. It was actually not true. I know. I know. But you know this. The Ford the Ford Pinto. Yeah. It was the heavily influences film is influenced by Ford had an internal memo about the the Pinto, which is just a disastrous card that like failed and killed people. and they had an internal memo about how much would it cost them to recall the car versus how much it was the human lives, like worth to them to not say anything. I just pretend they didn't know. Well, not about the human lives, about if they got sued, how much would they end up paying the lawsuits? So they're even anticipating the lawsuits. Yeah. So the human lives don't think you're into the equation. It's just the cash. That's nice. It's just the cash. And there's an interesting film with Gene Ackman about this, and I think it's focused actually on cars in response to this. It's called "class action." It didn't have, I mean, it's nothing as good as Michael Clayton. But yeah, it's interesting that it's not Monsanto. I don't think the Monsanto thing was yet a thing, right? No, it wasn't. It just retroactively seems like it had to be. But I mean, it was sort of, I mean, people knew about it, like a little bit, like the idea. I remember being, so this comes out in 2007, which the film, "The One Best Picture" this year is "No Country for Old Men," which I'm gonna come back to later about that. But the, I started, was it was a year I got in the car accident, I start college next year. And the, like, there were books that were being published. There were people who were writing on the left, like expressing this horror at Monsanto, this huge corporation, like what they were doing, whatever. But it wasn't widely known as much as it is now. So it's easier to make that connection. But yeah, it's more of this Ford Pinto thing. And so this film is. Right, I mean, Gilroy's even said that was the direct inspiration for the film. Yes. So, like, it's, this film, just for people who haven't seen it, if you had to boil it down to, you know, it's basic essence, as Todd said, of like, of the plot, I mean, is you have two people who have a conversion, who have a come to Jesus moment about all the terrible things they've been doing to protect terrible people and this move toward another project. That's the idea. So the first guy that does it, his name is Arthur Edens, played great amazingly by Tom Wilkinson. Incredible performance. And he, I guess, because he's has a history of psychic problems, his and the way he experiences his conversion, as he takes all his clothes off at a deposition, and goes out in the street naked. So. Can I talk about that first thing? I'm sorry, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, please do. But this is important. It's really, really important. And it's important from. And this is important from Michael's character too, is that. Yes, the Arthur's character has this history of like mental illness and navigating everything that that entails. You have this idea that he. They use the phrase manic depressive, which is not current, you know, you're still what it said by a post. So you have no. You don't really know, you just know that he has pills and medications and he's not taking them and he is acting manic. So what that does for you as an audience, and because he takes his clothes off and chase it as a. As Clooney says, as Michael Clayton, like runs through. What is it? Like runs through a parking lot with his dick. Oh, it's all parking off to the dick. Yeah, like you're kind of like. Alright, so probably I don't want to be on the corporation side, but like this guy seems like I don't know if I can trust him. And he seems like he might actually not be in his right mind. And so that is one of those really interesting things where he is a. Like he's a flawed witness to the. To the malfeasance of the company. And because he's like. He's flawed, it means you're kind of on Michael's side of trying to bring him. Not to contain him. Yeah, to contain him, like to bring him toward sanity. Because you see him acting in a way that is like. He's not in full possession of his faculties, like even objectively you would say that. And so that compromises you a little bit as a viewer, because he's not a perfect, like, pure subject. And that's a really wonderful thing that Gilroy does in this movie, is that you have flawed and compromised people who end up trying to do what is ultimately the right thing. And this is something he does to great effect, even in Andor, which people don't talk about it this way, but this is what's really great about that movie, is like Cassie and Andor is a figure, is never until the Rogue One, until the movie. He's never fully convinced by the rebel cause. He's just. he's not convinced by the Empire, but he's never fully in to the rebellion. And it's because he's never fully into the rebellion that he ends up saving a character who ends up saving the world. Because no one else would have responded to this distress call at the end of that series, because everyone else would have been like, "It look if we show up, it's going to blow the entire thing on the rebellion." But because he's not fully invested, he's just more invested in people, he shows up. And that's the same, if you've seen that, you haven't seen this movie, it's that same kind of idea that he's exploring in this film, which is that like, there's actually something that a compromised subject can do toward the good, capital G, that a fully committed subject cannot do. And that's a very fascinating idea. Right, it's fascinating. And I think it's funny because the person who is fully committed is Arthur, even though he also is mentally. He's psychically, he's problematic. But he is totally convinced he's in the right, and he is in the right. And we learn that pretty quickly, I think, that he's in the right. And maybe we don't learn it that quickly. Michael doesn't know. No, no, it's not clear, because he's reading from the deposition, but you don't have the context. He's reading from the internal studies, but yeah, anyway, up else. So we hear this stuff at the beginning, and then we see Michael at a card game, at a poker game. And then, so you're thinking, "Oh, what? There's something suspicious about him," and then he goes out to a guy that's just done a hit and run, and he is one of the great lines at all of the film where the guy, he's telling the guy, there's no play here, you just got to go to the. They're gonna. The police are gonna. They're gonna get you. You just got to hire a criminal attorney. And then the phone rings, and the guy goes, "Oh, that's the police." And then Michael claims that they don't call. And it's a great line. It's also a good set up for the film, as this guy said, was it. Marty said your miracle worker, and he says, "I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor." And that. So for you, as the viewer, that's the first time you hear him say that, right? But that's something that Arthur calls him a few days prior. Earlier, but for us, it's later. Right, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the question is, I think, when we're seeing him in the beginning of the film, I think it's possible to ask the question, has he already undergone this conversion when we see it? Right? My analysis will say, "Yes, but he hasn't fully accepted." Okay, because then he goes off driving, and he sees these horses up on a hill. They're bridled. But they're. So they're not wild, but there's nobody there. And he's just. Looking at the horses, I think he reaches out to one. And then we see in a shot of him, a close of him, all of a sudden his car blows up in the background. And then it just says, he starts to run down to it, but then it cuts and says four days earlier. Yeah. So it's interesting that the film. And then. So he's. We get this. Why does he begin the film? I mean, this is an interesting formal question. Why does he begin the film basically at the end? Almost at the end? Right, rather than just starting at the beginning of the story. And I think that. It certainly. Part of it is to mislead us. So we think one, Michael's gambling again, which is. But he's. It turns out he's not. Even though he actually was gambling, he's not back and addicted to gambling. And we also think we don't know why his car blew up. I mean, maybe we think it's a car bomb, which is what it is. But I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure that we know that. So. And we also don't know how he's going to react to it. But I think the other. That would be the point. Like, maybe there's something about the moment with the horses, which is what leads him. Is this moment of conversion. Right? Like that. I think it's possible to see it there. Or it's possible that once he sees the bomb, then he. I think that's the. That's the non-sartery in reading. Right? That it's the bomb. It's this external event that changes his project. And then he decides, "Oh, I have to do the right thing now." But I think something else has happened in him that changes him before that. It's when we catch up to that scene at the end. And you're right. Like, this is. This is not like a. You know, in Mady-Us Ray kind of a thing. Like, we're not in the middle of things. This is. When we catch up. When we catch up with this moment later in the day, in the movie, there's like 10 minutes left of the film. And that's just, and that's includes the credits. Like I think there's like seven minutes left of the movie once you catch. - Right, it's basically, after this, basically, it's his brother picking him up and then some shots, some shots of the lawyers and but very just a quick montage. And then it's him confronting Karen, played by Tilda Swinton, right? - And that, yeah. - No, and just this-- - It's about a six minute scene maybe, so-- - I said, yeah. - It's less than 10 minutes. - It's, yeah, and he's, and another thing this film doesn't get credit for is Tony Gilroy correctly identifying that Karen will become the name of the villain. - It's very nice. - Like 20. - Yeah, he was on top of that. - Do you think that actually, it's even more radical than that that people started calling people Karen's because of Michael Clayton? - Yeah, I like that. - Yeah, 'cause, yeah, yeah, we all had our own four days earlier, like that kind of a kind of-- - Yeah, although I think the things that the Karen's do are not quite as bad as what-- - No, it's like, yeah, it's true. - Yeah, social crimes, not environmental crimes. - Whoa, environmental murder. - Right, murder, I mean, not only environmental, murder with a weed killer, but also, like directly ordering two people's assassination. I mean, that's pretty. But, you know, I mean, some of these Karen's have been guilty of seducing me. (laughing) Probably not that far, we wouldn't say. - Yeah. - Incredible performance if I tell this one, and I think I already said, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, she's done a really great job of the, like, and well, part of like her character, so when you're introduced to her is, you hear her rehearsing her statements for a deposition. And it's this like, a very practiced kind of perfection that is like, it's two things. It's very humanizing on the one hand, but it's also like the effect later is like, utterly like inhuman and robotic. It's like-- - Right, because it seems like, when even when she's confessing to her worries or whatever in the interview, you don't believe it because you've heard her choose the exact words that she tries out different phrases. Before hand, so that makes it seem, as you say, rehearsed. The other thing that it does is, it's interesting that with Michael Clayton, we get the beginning first, and with her, we get, or sorry, we get the end first. - The end first. - And with her, we get this pre-beginning and then we come to the scene, right? So it's a weird, different temporality, which I think, there's a kind of retroactivity to his ethical position and her unethical position, I mean, that's the least you could say about her, is all about this forward movement. Like I'm gonna practice, I'm gonna make sure that the future is just what I want it to be, whereas he's trying to retroactively change everything that he's become, right? Like that's what he's, that's what he's, he's trying to act in a way, well, he's gonna act in a way that's gonna destroy his life, but in a way that he thinks, it's the only way to redeem his life, right? - Yeah. - Which is interesting that those two things come together, a kind of, I've heard, I've heard, or seen lawyers talk about this film saying, he's just disbarred totally for the, for what he does at the end, because he betrays the lawyer, client, confidentiality. Although I think maybe there's a question because they did try to kill him. - Yeah, yeah. I would think that there'd be, at the very least there'd be questions, but I mean, speaking of like, you know, of disbarment, I mean, what, so what happens, like the big, you know, earlier part of the film, once we go to four days earlier, is that Arthur, who's supposed to be the lead lawyer on this case in support of you North, and that's the Monsanto like company, he loses it, he takes his clothes off in the deposition, and he's yelling at this woman who's a witness for the, oh sorry, my might as well prosecution, for the prosecution, so prosecution being the, like the, what am I looking for? The defendant's claimants. - She's a, the plaintiff is the one suing. - Oh, that's the trick. - So she's a witness for the plaintiff, yeah. - Wait, amazing, okay, we'll get the lawyer language. We'll get it, we'll get it. - Eventually, so, but she's, you know, testifying about what the, like the, the weed killer did, like how it affected the water, like what was going on, and the, so I think she's from Nebraska, my remember, this guy. - Yeah, I think so, and it killed her parents in a sibling. - Yes. - That's the, yeah. - And so her name is Anna, and so you're watching, not in the room, you're watching a videotape of her giving, you know, her statement about what happened, and then that's when Arthur starts taking his clothes off, because he's, he's trying to purify himself, and he's trying, and he's just yelling like, Anna, like, you know, like this thing, and again, it's another one of these things where you're like, oh yeah, I want to be on this guy's side because he seems to have the right of it, but also that's like, that's sexual harassment, for sure. - Yeah, for sure. - For the line of assault, you know, like that, that's, and, and she should be terrified of this guy, but he's trying to fight for her, but like from the inside. - I like him though, I think. - She likes him, yeah, and, and, but as her aunt says, to Michael Clayton on the phone, - I think it's her sister. - It's your sister. Oh, this is, this is what is it? This is not a complicated person, you know, she said, you know, and, and, and anyway, the, so Michael gets called in to try to reign in Arthur, and Arthur is spouting all this stuff about how he's had an awakening, because, and he, a very explicit awakening where, you know, he's, he's, it's, it's unbelievable performance, like by the time he gets-- - Yeah, he counts, he counts the number of hours of his life, he's spent toward defending this indefensible, which is this weed killer that's killed all these people. - And it's 12% of his life, and he's thinking this while, to, - Prostitutes. - To, yeah, no, it's gonna, I was trying to remember where the Lithuanian sex workers, right? That, yeah, two, two, yeah, two, yeah, yeah. Our, our, our second is cock, and he's trying not to come, and so he starts thinking about that, and then he's trying not to think about it, and he just goes into this whole thing, and, and you're like, you're like, like, like, like, in most, again, in most other movies, when someone has the, like, the, the come to Jesus moment, the, like, it's not-- - It doesn't come like that. - Yeah, yeah, pump, both of us having some nice play on words in our senses. - Yeah, and I was gonna say that, but I decided not to. - We're doing a good, we're doing a good job there. No, but it's all, it's part of the thing. Like, you, like, again, you, you wanna be, like, it's, another film would have you 100% on his side, I think, like, especially in 2026, because where, like, you know, you read these things, like, like, Hollywood wants, like, or like, these streamers, these different companies, like, they have this thing, like, that they want, the, everything that they make, if there's good guys and bad guys, it has to be very, very clear who's a good guy, and who's a bad guy. Like, there is this, like, the simplicity of, like, of either sidedness. And, you know, like, I see this in different things, like, you know, you'll get, you'll hear from, like, certain shows, like, notes from the top, like, look, it needs to be more clear to the audience, like, you know, who they're supposed to be rooting for, and this or that. And you watch the film like this, and it's like, yes, okay, he has the right thing, but, like, the way that people-- - Not in the right form. - Yeah, the way he does it is not. You can't before it. - No, it's un-safery, it's totally un-safery. - Right, yes. - Right, right. - I agree. And the only person who's, and even care, I think the rehearsing makes you sympathetic to Karen for, on feminist grounds, right? Like, you're feeling like, wow, she's a woman in this very tough situation. But, I find this very interesting, 'cause Gilroy and interviews said that one of the things motivating him to draw Karen in the way that he does, or the way that he did, is that he was responding to this get involved. Like, women should, that feminism should be, like, this Cheryl Sandberg version of feminism, right? Like, I'm gonna, we can advance just as many, we can be tie in the corporate world, just like the men. We can act just as poorly as men can, and that's somehow a feminist gesture. And he said, I just, I don't disagree with anything more than that, he goes, that's just, and so I wanted to find a way to express my disagreement with that idea. And I think he really gets you, because you do feel that, because of those scenes, the way she's sweating and really nervous, you do feel for her in that situation. But then, when you find out, when she orders, when you know that she's defending the weed killer, that's a person killer, and then when she orders Arthur to be killed, and it's done so horrific. I think there's an argument to say, it's maybe the most disturbing, killing, in cinematic history. I mean, this probably, I purply on my part, but it's so horrific, because it's so antiseptic, I think. And I'm literally antiseptic, but they're wearing, all sterilized stuff so that they don't leave any of their DNA. They shock his heart so that he's paralyzed and then spray something in his mouth so his vocal cords are paralyzed so he can't make any sound but he's awake. And they put something in his mouth so he doesn't bite his tongue I think. Yeah. Yeah. And then and and it's all in a it's all in a continuous shot and it lasts for about two and a half. It's a tracking shot right. It's stunning and it's horrible. And then they put they they I guess you can kill someone and no one knows they stab him with a needle and put something between his toes. Yeah. And yeah I guess that's the way to do it if you're going to murder someone and think it look like I've never tried it. You hear that kids? That's right. We're always trying to give practical advice on the show. So yeah, if you're really if you're trying to practice practical advice from films. Yeah. That's right. I mean every film should really have something it's trying to say and what Michael Clayton is trying to say if you want to kill someone. Yeah, this is how you do it. This is how you do it. But you the funny thing is you don't I mean those guys are horrible. But they're kind of shocked that she's ordering the killing and she they also don't she can't quite get herself to say it directly and we don't hear it as we never hear her say it directly. So the guy the one guy's name is Vern says so we have some ideas that we have how we could take care of it on on a dark a deeper level and she goes okay. And then he says do you mean okay like you understand or okay like go ahead and do it. Yeah. And then proceed and then cut cut right it's a brilliant cut I think because it's just it's just you just you just really the answer is in the film. Yes. Right. It's not in the it's not in the dialogue and so one of the I think that's one of the great things about the film is it's very talky but at the same time a lot of the things that it's it leaves a lot of things unsaid that are made clear just filmically. Yes. I think that is pretty it's pretty great. Yes and you know what I think this is time to go on a little journey. Okay we're going on Ryan's journey. We're going on a journey here because you've you've you've done you've done me a little favor here. I triggered you. Yes very much in a let me say let me say the way you set that up that really rubbed me right I'm going to say I'm going to put that way. Okay. So there's a sequence that begins at almost it's almost 59 minutes but like it's a little earlier 57 minutes and 55 seconds. There's a sequence that begins here that is just some of the best formally intentional political filmmaking this side of Isonstein and I also want to say this 2007 everyone every not the all isons you mean Serge did I say Paul isonstein. No he just died I was just curious I assume you've had Serge I meant Serge but I'm bringing Paul into this too I think he would appreciate this this work. The this is so this film comes out 2007 and every like film bro centafile you know gateway you know person who really getting into this they know what do they know about no country and and and the form of it what do they do tell me Todd what does everyone know about that well I think they know that the hero and the villain are never in the same shot. Yes correct. Yes they're never in the same frame together they are in the same scene but they're never tick they're never you never because they're so we don't see them which is makes the it makes the killing of the hero seem odd right. Yeah well I mean no but it's even true for well so you're talking about Lohel and right you're talking about this I'm talking about the Josh Brolin. Yeah you mean you mean Tommy Lee. Tommy Lee Jones they're definitely never in the same. Never yeah never in the same because they're just wait a minute unless is he's maybe still in the hotel room. So they're in the hotel room but it's never in the same frame that's why I'm saying like they're in the same scene but never in the same frame like they cannot occupy the same space. Cinematic space yes like cause they're just so ideologically opposed I think this is like or or historically opposed right like one belongs to it. I mean that's kind of the sense of the final dream is it a dream that Tommy Lee Jones or it's I think it is. I think isn't that the sense of it that that he belongs to some prior epoch. Yes. And this is a new kind of a force that he just can't make sense of and he can't exist in the same space with. I think that. Yeah I think I mean I think that's right. I mean you're right to say that the the Tyro film student knows that but I think it's a solid. No it's great. No I'm not not. It's good. Yeah. It's excellent. It's great. Yeah the books behind me no one can see this. I love them. That's probably their best film. I you know I think it is their best and I also think it's one of the times when the Academy Award was given out that you did even though it beat Michael Clayton which was wrong. Yeah. You didn't feel like oh wow again again again they screwed it was like that one every decade like silence of the lambs or like parasite right where you can say okay this one was fine. They got it. Right. So right enough right enough right enough right enough. So this is what I want to say is everyone knows about no country. Yes. Michael Clayton does something that makes that look like piss okay and I'm now I'm being hyperbolic but and that's the best co-embrothers movie and this is so this is incredible so I I I try to you don't know what I'm going to say so what happens. All right so here's here's what I'm going to tell you this goes back to my thing about save by the left what this film does from the halfway point to the end of the movie is intentionally put characters on either the right or the left of the screen and if you're on the right conservative you are on the side of the company you're on the side of you're on the side of the the weed killer and the murderers if you're on the left you are on the side of of justice and the right thing you're on the side of the project to undo a lot what you have helped do for your entire life and it starts in the sequence with when Michael costs Arthur in this alleyway in New York okay with the baguettes with the baguettes it starts there and so like I've got this whole I this is I don't like that podcasts have become visual I just think like radio is always killed by the video star like a really hated like so that like I really really don't like that so but this is one time where maybe it would be you wish we had a little bit it probably would be this what I'm about to do might not make for good radio so apologies to everybody try to stick with me on this because I'm going to give you a lot of visual information you can you know what maybe ideally you know the the miss you know mystery science theater I know you know mystery science there yes so those guys did a thing called rift tracks where because one of the things with mystery science theaters was hard eventually to get the rights to like reprint the episode show because it had real movies that they also then had to you know pay those rights holders or whatever so what the guys who did the show they would record their commentary and you would just play the commentary for like a lot of movies like but when the movie like played so you just kind of had to sink it up do it yourself yeah do it yourself like every stoner watching Wizard of Oz to the dark side of the moon is the soundtrack right on the third roar Todd you hit play on the third and then it's all syncs up hi got you yeah okay so we maybe at best case scenario what I'm going to do is going to be like this so but that's the big thing is that like from this moment the the left side of the screen is almost exclusively for people who are performing or trying to perform liberatory action and the right side is for people who are company men status quo killers it's stunning and I'm going to go through this here's my evidence I hope is not to this okay so here we go uh Michael sees Arthur at 57 55 and he catches up to him at 58 oh nine so he parks the car he's with his kid he's running from the right to the left he catches up to Arthur Arthur's on the left side of the frame Michael's on the right now this is a two shot and it's interesting it goes from two different well three three different angles where we either see Michael's face or we see Tom or we see Arthur's face and what's really clever about this is there's two different proximities so there's a two shot that's pushed up where you can only see shoulder to head so that the character is occupied the entire frame okay and then there's a slightly pulled back a little bit wider two shot where there's space negative space on either side of Arthur and Michael okay so I'm gonna okay I'm gonna go through this so here we go uh so he catches up to him at 58 oh nine it settles into and this settles Michael into a far right position with his back to camera at 58 19 Arthur drifts from the left to the center of the frame at 58 23 to hand Michael a loaf of bread Arthur is planning to go to the mattresses why would you get a shed load of bread because you're trying not to leave the house for a long time okay okay 58 30 Michael is a center right and he says so welcome home he's being sarcastic and when Michael is in the center right of the frame for this entire sequence he's gonna say things that express genuine concern for Arthur because he does does care about him, but then when it's. pushed in to the tighter two shot, and he's on the far right, he's speaking exclusively as a company man. It's unbelievable. - Wow. So that's cool. - Yeah, so 5839, he says, "But you're feeling better now, okay, "but not enough to call me back." And then right at 50, so that's been this, you know, a little bit wider two shot where he's on the center right, expressing concern. And at 5904, Michael says this, as good as this feels, you know where this goes. And now he's speaking as a company man, it were in this tighter two shot, and he's on the far right of the frame, okay? And then he says, how do I talk to you? Like a child, like a nut, he's on the far right, okay? Now we pull back a little bit, 5926, he's in center right. He says, "You need help." Before this goes too far, you need help, 'cause he's expressing real concern. So he's center right, okay? Now we push in, far right. If you keep your clothes on, you can do any goddamn thing you want. So now this is a company man thing. He's just trying to convince him to come back inside. You want to make, you want to bake bread, go with God. That's a center right position, it's pulled back. So he's expressing like genuine concern. Center right, there's only one wrong answer in this whole goddamn pile, and you've got your arms around it. He says that center right, and then at this exact moment, we go back into the tighter two shot, Michael says this, and the far right position, you piss on this case, and they'll cut you off at the knees. And then this next couple of lines, these are far right. I'm out running this price of genius story to anyone who will listen, and then Michael tells him that he and Marty know about the phone calls he's been making to Anna. He's on the far right of the scene, and then this sets Arthur off, 'cause his phone's being tapped, okay? - Right, which he knows, right? - Which he knows, yeah, yeah. And so then center right position, you're chasing a girl through a parking lot with your dick hanging out, genuine concern. Center right, you think your judgment is state of the art right now? Far right position, they're putting everything on the table, you need to stop and think this through. Center right, I'll help you think this through. So do you see that, like, I'm just, again, I hope it's not, it's very, very, very intentional. Like I felt like it was, what tipped me off is because at the end of this scene, what happens is, Michael is in a far right position and says, "I'm not the enemy," and Arthur says, "then who are you?" And Arthur leaves, and because he leaves, it's in this tighter, this two shot, okay? Michael just occupies the far right of the frame with negative space to his left, okay? Because Arthur's left it. And so Michael just occupies the far right, this is at 101-50, okay? So it's a completely, it's an unbalanced shot, now that Arthur's gone, but it's providing the space now for, I think this is the first time that Michael thinks maybe he doesn't have the right of this, okay? - Oh, I'm interested. - So then at 105-38, that'd be one-- - I wonder if it's because he hears about the car, but when Arthur denies that Anna would have told about the call. - Yeah, yeah. - I wonder what it is, is there some kind of moment or just talking to him, maybe? - I think from the filmmaking, it's that, I mean, he's asking him, who are you? Like the-- - Yeah, yeah, so that, just being confronted with that question. And from the far left, he occupies the center of the frame when Arthur says, "Michael, I have great affection for you. "You lead a very rich and interesting life, "but you're a bag man, not an attorney." And so-- - Yeah. - And then-- - That's when he says, if you wanted to institutionalize me, you should have done in Wisconsin. - Yes, and that starts at 101-23, where he's very sober about this, and you're like, oh shit, this guy might actually be in full possession of his faculties. And he says, "The last place you want to see me "is in court, he's in the dead center of the frame "when he says that." And then it's that I'm not your enemy, he's on the far right, and then who are you? And then it's at 105-38, begins to scene where Tilda Swinton is gonna order the murder of Arthur. And she's on the far right of the screen. This happens after the guys who are monitoring Arthur, Vernon and his subordinate, they hear him read like a private company memo that is signed by, was it Don Jeffries' name? - Don Jeffries. - Yeah, showing that the company was fully aware that their weed killer kills people. And so she's on the far right, okay? That's important to information. So then, then, a scene that is not so talked about with this, that's really interesting, Todd McGowan. It's a birthday party for someone in his family. - Oh yeah, yeah. - It's his dad, I think. - His dad, yeah, okay. So he's in the basement talking to his brother. He's got two brothers, Timmy, who he started a business with, who is an addict and kind of stole the money from the restaurant and that submarine did. And then he got his other brother, who's a lawyer. Not much, sorry. - It was a cop. - He's a cop. - Yeah. - And so they're talking, they're just like in the basement. And there's a subtle 180 degree rule break at one away. - Yeah, there is, yeah. - 50. And then there's another more obvious one at the end of that scene, when Michael's brother tells him just to stay for an hour. And this, Todd McGowan, this 180 degree rule break, for the first time since that conversation with Arthur, puts him on the left side of the frame. - Oh wow. - Instead of the right. Okay, so at one 10, and so that happens at 10945 of the film. At one 1002, that begins the brutal murder of Arthur and when the one continuous shot, which lasts until 11219. And so when Michael gets called to about what happened, so while listening to the description of Arthur's suicide, Michael is on the all the way left side of the screen, continuing his placement from that conversation with his brother. And like I have pages and pages of this, I don't wanna make it like, so I don't wanna go through, I just have pages and pages of this. I feel like Arthur actually like in this movie. - Yeah. - He, and so he's on the left when he talks to Marty, Sydney Pollock, and he's on the left side of the screen for their conversation at the bar when Marty says that we caught a lucky break, or actually sorry, it's Michael who says that about Arthur's suicide, that they caught a lucky break in the case. And then at 127, Marty leaves and that doesn't, that idea just doesn't sit right with Michael. - Yeah. - And it's an echo of the space that's left when Michael was in the alley, except now Michael's on the left side, and Marty's on the right side and he leaves. And so it's after this that he calls, he calls Anna at home. - At home. - And then-- - And she's not there. - And he finds out that Arthur paid to have her come out to New York, and he simply would not have done that if it was a suicide. It's just like there's just no way. And it's really amazing too, 'cause what Gilroy does with the filmmaking is he's on the left side of the screen when he's talking to Anna's sister, and even when he's driving, Michael Clayton's head is on the left side of the frame, which is kind of incredible. Not so unique if you're in England, but pretty unique if you're in the states and you're driving like the way that we drive, like to have the head be on the left side of the frame. - Yeah, that's true. - That's a point. - And so when he goes to-- - All right, I'm convinced. - You convinced me, yeah. - Todd, there's 40 more minutes of this. When he goes to talk to Anna, listen. (laughing) When he goes to talk to Anna, he's on the right side of the screen because he can't occupy the space that she does on the left liberatory side. He can't. She's too much of a pure subject, but she can't be the one to bring justice to the situation, which is one of the really great political points that Gilroy is making, is that she's this witness, this like pure witness to the destruction and to actually get some, to get some justice in this case, you kind of have to be a little dirty. - Right, and I think that's even true, even though Arthur is dirty, his cleansing of himself makes it impossible for him to be the person that actually brings any kind of justice to the case, right? So it has to be, I mean, it is an interesting, almost defense or celebration of the figure of the fixer as a potentially moral position, right? I think that's what's really fascinating because the whole film, don't wouldn't you say, comes up to, and then Andrew, I assume it has the same kind of left, right? Structure. - Yeah, but listen, I gotta, I gotta go through a little bit more of this. I'm so sorry, but you're gonna love it. I promise, okay. So when he, so he gets the, he's on the right side of the screen when he asks his brother for the city seal, okay? So when they seal a crime scene, like the other cop explains it, it's really nice, it's like frozen, it's like frozen time. And Michael asks for seal from his brother to be able to break into Arthur's apartment and look for something just to get some evidence. And so when he gets that, when he's asking his brother for the seal, he's on the right side of the frame because he's a fixer. So he's on the fixer, he's doing the dirty work to get it. When he enters Arthur's apartment, it's left side, total negative space intentionally on the right side. Left side when he's emerging from lockup. Left side when he's talking to his brother and his brother says you got all these cops thinking you're a lawyer and all these lawyers thinking you're a cop. You got everybody fooled, don't you? And then the, he gets the seal. goes to then eventually he gets the, he has the slip that gets him the evidence that Arthur was printing. - Right, I mean, which he wouldn't have got if he didn't go to the, to the Arthur's didn't break into Arthur's apartment. So that's really interesting, I think, that again, this is the, his qualities as a fixer, allow him to get the slip, that are they make 10,000 copies of, did Arthur order 10,000 copies of the-- - It's like 25 boxes, yeah, yeah, it's in 20 boxes. - Yeah, yeah, so that gives him access to that, that he wouldn't have otherwise had access to. So again, I really like this idea that you're, there's a way that your corruption can be the thing that helps you as a figure to do something in anticipatory. - Yes. - Right, like that's, I mean, that's what, that's what Gilroy's really interested in. Like what is it that converts you and how can you then use the stuff that's been part of this oppressive structure? How can you use that as an anticipatory way? - To do something that someone who has, which he's not like also not knocking, like being like fully converted or like that there's some-- - No, not at all. - There's some like gap in having been the victim or whatever, but just that the person who is compromised can do something that like the fully converted like from the beginning cannot do. This again continues into this scene where he takes $80,000 from Marty. - From Marty. - And he's on the right side of the screen in that, from most of that sequence until Marty and the other guy leaves and then he's on the all the way right, I'm sorry, he's on the all the way left and he's looking at the realm and conquest well thing that has all the internal memos from the company. Then this is 140.02, we catch up with the opening scene and it would not have meant anything for us as a viewer at the beginning, but he's on the left side of the conversation when he's talking to the guy who did the hit and run. And then this is the smoking gun taught, I hope you're very impressed with this. - Okay. - He's driving away and you don't know this. This is again, we're caught up to the opening scene where his car explodes and he doesn't realize he's driving like a maniac in the upstate New York to get away from these guys who are trying to chase him. And he goes down this road that they don't see. Okay, remember this? 'Cause-- - Yeah, yeah, of course. - Okay, 'cause they put this car bomb in his car when he's gambling, but he leaves early because of the hit and run and so they don't put it in perfectly and so the tracker they have on him is not perfect. And so they're trying to find him and he goes down this road to eventually get to the horses and they lose track of him. And here's what the other guy says to Vern, he says this, he turned, somehow he turned, he took a left. You know what Vern says? I don't have a left. And so there you go, man. - Now that's the best point. Yeah, I really love that point and I think it is true, that I mean, I think Gilroy was really interested in making a very political film, obviously. - Yeah. - And this idea of taking a left that is it, I think that's a key point you're making. - Make it. - That it's not visible and it's not marked as a road that you could take. I think that's really a good, it's very instructive as a way to think about what an emancipatory gesture would look like. Yeah, so your argument would be he's already converted by the time he goes to take that left turn. Like he's already. - Yes, because he can see it and those other guys, right? - And you think it's maybe in the basement of his father's house with his brother when you get the violation of the 180 degree rules. - That's what happened. - I mean, that would be form. I think that's formally has to probably be right. That you, I mean, why else would you violate the 180 degree rule in such an obvious way, if not to say to us, okay, something's, he's, there's a conversion that's taken place. - Yeah. - And his brother's begging him to just stick around with the family for a little bit. - Yeah, yeah. - Which he does. - Yes. - Right, he does. - And that's when Arthur gets killed. - That's when Arthur gets killed. And the other thing that I think it's as there, is as he's leaving there that he stops and has the conversation with his son or is that really wrong? - No, no, you're right, no, that's right. - Yeah, it's an amazing conversation. So he's talking to his son, he's a, he's also does a great job in the film. And part of the thing is that the son is reading this novel called Realm in Conquest. So I think has a game attached to it, maybe? - Yes, kind of like Dungeons and Dragons. - Yeah. - 'Cause little like Dungeons and Dragons. And he had a long conversation with Arthur about it. - Yes. - And Arthur got the book, so the book is key. So I love this, Gilroy basically wrote this novel. - Yeah. - To fit into the film. - As it just approaches. - Which is shows what? - As a prop. - I mean, yeah. - I mean, who, to me, that's just, that's one of the ways you can see the difference between certain filmmakers, right? We can, I'm not gonna mention any, but you can, I got some of them, most popular filmmakers, they're not writing a whole novel, that's just a prop. - Yes. - In the film, right? They're just not doing that. - No, if they are, it's gonna become, it's because it's like really important and you're gonna see pieces from it and you're gonna pay attention to it. - Right, and then, I mean, there are these theories that, and maybe this is true, that there are horses in the Rillman Conquest, and so he stows for the horses. See, the horses, and maybe that's true. There's also a painting of horses and Arthur's apartment, and so maybe that's, but I don't think we really know, I don't think that, I mean, whatever, whatever you wanna say about that, I don't think it necessarily matters. - He's on the left and the horses are on the right, by the way, in that. - Oh, wow, there's right wing, there's conservatives. - There's conservatives at the horses, yeah. - But then they disappear, and then his, you know, it's really great face acting from Clooney, where he's like, the eye interpreted is he's like, do I really have to do I really have to do this? And it's like, I do, I really have to, I really have to do it. - I know, it's a great point. And what's great is, when he's run, the beginning of the film cuts, and fades to four days earlier, as he's running down the hill to the exploding car, but when we see it now in the real time, toward the end of the film, he takes off, and I'm not sure why this would have worked, but he takes off his watch, he throws the car keys in, I think, and he throws his wallet in. - So, I'm not even sure why it would work, but I think the point is, it's a symbolic suicide on his cars, right? I think that's all that, I think, because there's no body, so, why would they think, I mean, unless they thought he got blown away from the car, and they just didn't find a body. But his ID was there, so, like-- - Yeah, so, and it is reported that he was killed, which is very easy. - It's a report that he's killed, which is why when he goes to see Karen, she turns around looking shocked at him, and he goes pretty freaky, huh? And then he says, "You've seen Arthur, he's walking around here too." And then he goes, "I'm kidding, lighten up." And so, that's, but that's an amazing scene that he has to throw, the act of throwing that stuff in there. - Yes. - Is the real key political movement, because that leads him to destroy, I think, basically destroy his, I mean, not, I think, I know. - Yes. - Destroy his entire, he, for one thing, puts his law firm out of business. - Yeah. - That's guaranteed. He's probably disbarred. If he's certainly never gonna be, if they don't disbar him, 'cause he was being, somebody tried to kill him, at least, and he's coming forward with evidence that's in the public, it's a concern of public health and public interest. So maybe he doesn't get disbarred, but I don't think he's gonna get hired at another law firm. - No, he could trust him. - 'Cause you could never trust him, right? He's gonna betray secrets, and I'm not sure if he's gonna even get hired in a prosecutor's office. So maybe he's gonna be, you know, a line cook somewhere or something. - Yeah. - Like I don't think his, I don't think his job prospects are very good, but I think that's the point, right? The point is that he's in order to act ethically, he has to engage in this, and I think that's what's being symbolically indicated by the throwing the wallet and the watch. - And I just, I don't wanna say on this, this is something that we talked about, pre-show last show that I thought was, there was very sartry in his, it's not like he left to go see the horses and his wallet and his phone and all this stuff was in the car and that exploded and then he ran, he chooses to put it in the smoldering remains of the car. So like, it's, it's, so like the identity destruction, the symbolic suicide, like he does it, it does it, yes. - It's not forced on him, right? - Exactly, right. The car explodes, that's forced on him, but he decides for it to be the destruction of his identity, which is just like, is brilliant. And then in that last scene, I know you, you listen to this probably, he's sick of me doing this, but at this point in those last times I'll do it. He's on the right side of the screen because he has to be, and till the sweat and it's on the left 'cause she thinks this is actually really interesting. When she's getting ready for her, like conversation with the board and like whatever about the settlement, she's on the left side of the frame, but it's a mirrored shot, which means what, she's on the right. So, but it's actually, so it's on the left. So she has this like false leftness if you wanna carry the thing with me, but he has to be on the right because he has to seem corruptible to her or else. - Oh right. - He's, or it's not gonna work. - Yeah, it's really interesting. And I think that goes back to the janitor fixer idea, right? Like if he wasn't a fixer, when he, 'cause the play at the end is that he wants to, he pretends to be, when not bribing or blackmailing her, right? And saying, I know what you did Arthur, I'm gonna spill the beans. I know what your weed killer knocked off 300 people or, I don't know how many. And it's a great moment because he says, she goes, is there a number? And he says 10, and she goes, 10 million, where do you think I'm gonna come with that? And then he says, he goes, okay, I'll make it easy on you. Five, and then she goes, well, five, I can do, five is reasonable. And then he says, and five, and the other five is to forget about the people you knocked off with your weed killer. - Yes. - So he doesn't, but then he gets her to say, I'll give you this money to the, so, I guess that's a confession, right? - Yeah. - Is that, well, yeah, because it counts. - It's a confession? - Well, yeah, it's kind of like, it's kind of like, you remember, I mean, people have listened to this podcast a long time, I'm not gonna tell a story again. When I was robbed at Walmart, and the guy said he had a gun, you say you have a gun, you have a gun, it doesn't matter if you're actually dead or you didn't. So like, the fact that she, so she's, is that true? It's armed robbery, even if you don't actually have a gun. - It doesn't matter if you say you have a gun, for the purposes of the law, yeah. That was interesting. - Yeah, yeah. At least the Massachusetts or Rhode Island, that's how I heard it. - Okay. - Yeah. Or what? - I'll just remember not to say that. - Don't say that next time you're gonna knock off. - I knock off the gun. - Yeah. - Door down the street. - So yeah, practical advice on my theory. So, yeah. - I have been saying that, so I'm gonna stop. - You gotta stop. Yeah, but for years, but now publicly, I'll finally get you to stop going into Haniford, and threaten him. - Right, you know. - Right, so just, yeah. - But I think it's that, you know, she's, the fact that she's making this deal with him is an admission of guilt. Like, why would she do it if she wasn't our guilt? 'Cause he does say, I know what you did to Arthur, and she doesn't say, no, I didn't. - Exactly. - Right, yeah. And then he says, the 468, or whatever the number is, people you killed in Nebraska, and then she just shakes hands on the money. And then this is like, all right, I lied, this is my last time. Then he, what happens is he goes from the left side of the screen to the right when he goes down the elevator, eventually the elevator occupies the left side of the frame. For a little bit. - That's collier. - That's collier. And then he gets into the cab, and where does he put himself in the cab, Todd? - He is on the left side. - All the way left, far left. - The cab, the frame. - Do you know that this is the kind of interesting, I find this interesting, but it's purely anecdotal and not theoretical at all. But as, so they shot that scene in New York City, and Clooney had to, so it's a lot of, it's mostly a tight shot on Clooney. And it's because people externally were like waving at him and looking at him. And so he said he had the hardest time keeping his dream face. While he was doing the scenes. - But I think it doesn't make it, I think it makes it, he just seems so conflicted about what he did. - Right, right. - Well, I mean, he should be conflicted, right? Because he's just ruined his entire life. And he could have, the thing that's great is, he could have really shook her down. - Yeah, right. - I mean, he easily could have. - That's what it was. - Right, like it would have worked. It would have worked. She would have done it. And then he could have, he would have been free and clear to do whatever he wanted, right? Like I think he's the only one that knew everything. - Yeah. - Right, other than Karen and then, and I love the way that the Don Jeffries who's the head of You North wants the cop, wants security to stop George Clooney and the cops, they walk right past him. - They walk right past him. - Michael Clayden and they arrest him. - Yeah. - And yeah. Which I'm not sure, I think there's a little wish fulfillment here. And I'm all four. I'm not against. This is not a critique. - Sure. - But I find it hard to believe that cops would arrest a corporate executive for, for what, for a weed, for. - No, no, I mean, - Citing, no, I mean, - Citing, no, I mean, - Deadly weed killer. - That's, no, but I mean, she also admits in that conversation that having his car blown up. - Right, no, I understand her arrest. - Yeah. - But they're also arresting Don Jeffries. - Oh, is that right? - Yeah, I think they are at the end. - So that happens in the negative space to our right. It was Michael's left, but our right is the viewer as he's being, yeah, you're right. - You're right, yeah. - Yeah, I think they are arresting. So I think that that, again, I think that's kind of wish fulfillment. I don't think, which I mean, I'm all for cops. They just need to arrest the right people. Right? - Right. - And I think that's one of those great things about, right, right, right. I mean, I think that's one of the great things about Michael Clayton is it shows us cops who are really interested in arresting the right people. Like they are, I mean, they don't, they're unable to solve Arthur's murder, but they, when it comes down to it, and maybe it's because it's his brother who's in charge of the thing that he believes in and is willing to do it. But it's a pretty, I think that's an interesting idea that the problem isn't cops, it's who they're targeting, right? Like they're not, they're not targeting this, but the huge big capital that's doing the most nefarious kind of things, right? Instead, they're targeting whatever people that are just whatever they're doing. - I'm wondering the thumb of the, of the big, of capital. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean, just like who are targeted? People that are just stupid drug users or whatever. Like it's just, I mean, I think most jails are filled with people that have minor drug offenses. - Yeah, none of them. - They're not filled with Ivan Boetsky. I mean, even he is, like we know his name just 'cause he's so anomalous, right? - Yeah, we're right. - Like those kind of, if the jails are filled with people like that, then we shouldn't even know their names, right? - Yeah. - They should just be, most of the jails are filled with these big capitalists that could control themselves. - Yeah. - But, you know, so I don't know, I feel like that's, 'cause it seems pretty realistic, doesn't it? What happens? Like the fact that, yeah. - Well, it doesn't, I know that it's his brother, so I don't know, maybe someone would say like, well, it's only 'cause he had a family member who was a cop, but it's like, but he was, look, it's if, he's a fixer. And what he's doing is he's lever, he leverages relationships to minimize damage for people who have done wrong. And what he does, you know, in the last 10 minutes of the movie, is he, and what he, what he starts to do after, no, no, earlier, after Arthur dies, is he does the same things as a fixer, but toward this like emancipatory, like, - Right, exactly. - Which is what leads to, like, when he was doing things to help nefarious people do nefarious things, it was personally profitable for him. The only reason why he was in debt was because of his gambling and because the restaurants didn't work out, but I mean, like, as far as like, he was just very well connected, everything was working for him personally, but when he starts to act in the public interest, it comes at a personal cost. I think it's like a really beautiful point that the, yeah, I think. - Yeah, I think, yeah. - Yes, yes, yes, I'm glad that you got to this, yes, 100%. - Because he, just for the reason you just said, right, he's willing, he's willing to use all these machinations, to get what, to get the emancipatory thing done, which is jailing the people, who are, who are killing people, they're a weed killer. And I think that he wouldn't, if he was a beautiful soul, he wouldn't even all do that. - Okay. - Because he has to get his hands dirty, just as you're saying, he has to be a fixer in this other direction in order to be able, in order to act. - Well, in a beautiful soul. - In a beautiful soul. Not that she's, you know, she's not like telling me. - Yeah, but I think that's unfair. I mean, she's the beautiful soul in the, just, she is a beautiful soul, but she's not in the Higallians. - Not in the, no, but it's a, but like, what, I think what Gilroy does, I agree, 'cause she's not, 'cause the beautiful soul. - She's not like condemning a thing that she's actually enabling. - Yes, exactly. - She's not. - Right, right, right, she doesn't do that. But it's, but what, what her presence, I mean, especially at that moment in the film that she appears and talks to Michael, is it just shows that like, look, someone who's complicit is the only way that like, this work can be done. It can be, I agree, I agree. And, I mean, in a way, she, but she's also willing to act. I mean, she comes, she's willing to go to New York with the sky that stripped down in front of her, paying for her ticket, right? - Yeah, sure enough. - And her sister thinks that's crazy, that she went. - Yeah, that she should just leave well enough alone and just like, just take this, take it. - Right, right, just accept the settlement, take a settlement, whatever. And so I feel like that's the, so in a way, she's also putting herself out there, but I take your point that because she's not a fixer or a janitor, because she's a little too pure, she's not able to do it. you take it over the final, take it over the goal line, the way that Michael is, I think. - Yeah. - It's also, I think, don't you think it's Clooney's best performance? I just think it's, I think he's, yeah. - He's, I mean, he's really, I mean, you and I both love Burn After Reading so much. He's really great in that movie. - Yeah, he's funny as well. It's funny, it's, tell the Swinton as well. - It's also very, yeah. - That movie, yeah. - And I'm trying to think, you know what, I think? - Well, Ciri Honest, what do you want the Academy Award for supporting actor for, I think? - That's right. - Didn't he or, no, up in the air, doesn't he win Best Actor for Up in the Air? Or am I wrong about that? Or is he just nominated? - No, I don't think so. Some, I think he won for supporting in Ciri Honest 'cause I don't think he's the main star. I don't think he's everyone best solid actor, but maybe I'm wrong about that. But in any event, he was nominated for this film, but I assume Didiniel Day Lewis win, I assume. - Oh, probably. - For oil? - For oil. - I just, that's really good. - What do they call that? - It's trolling, yeah. - You are trolling there will be blood. Yeah, you're right. He, Best Supporting Actor for Ciri Honest. And he got a best picture for co-producing Argo. - That's right. - That's right. - So there's that. - Not his best work, but not his best work. - But yeah, up in the air pretty good, not as complex as this. - No. - You know. That's another one of those films that I've heard, I don't know if this is worth an episode, but like sometimes it happens where like the, the opposed, like the, the thing that the film opposed becomes the thing that it is most known for. And I've just heard like, just on the different things, it's just like socially people say like, oh yeah, you know, you should, your life, you should be able, the most important things you should be able to put in a backpack, like you should be able to do. And it's, and I'm, and it's from that movie. Like that's his whole thing. - And that's what it's criticizing. - The whole, yeah, exactly. He has nothing. It's like the point, like he's this motivation speaker. It's like, you know, you should, you know, downsize, simplify, like, you know, the thing, and then we'll tie you down. - The people trying to convince us of that are trying to convince us to give up our DVDs and just, that's a good point. - And they're streaming. - I just watched Michael Clayton on a DVD and it was very nice. - Yes. - Same. - Yeah. - Same for me. - Yeah. - I, I, I long live the DVD. - Long live the DVD. And when, when this gets put out in 4K, if anyone wants to contact me to do this, you know, left right things for the special features, like I'm, I'm like, I'm like, wow. - Okay. - Yeah, but there we go. So you were actually seeking some agility. - That's right. - Yes. - But only as a special feature that you would have to work really hard to find. - Yeah. - And that you would, and that you'd be compensated for, pretty. - No, no, no, I'd really never see that. - No, no, no. - I would, I would have all the money go to the victims of you and North. That's what I would do. - Okay. (laughing) - That's pretty good. Okay, Ryan, I think the recommendation is watch duplicity. - No. (laughing) - Which is another, I think he's only made three films, I think, right? Is that correct? - Yeah, then plus and/or being the, yeah, so, yeah, so, yes, a Rogue One. - Because Rogue One he didn't get, no, no, no. I think it's, this film was his first, then born legacy, and then duplicity. I don't think, I don't think, 'cause I don't think he was credited on Rogue One, even though he came in and cleaned up. Anyway, the lesson is watch Michael Clayton, anyway. So, which we both love, and this is the first single film episode we've done since Barb and Heimer, I believe. - Oh my gosh, is that right? - Yeah, I think so. - Worth it. - Yeah, very worth it. - Over and out, man. - Over and out, then. (upbeat music) (soft music) [BLANK_AUDIO]