Michael-Birch Pierce

Real quick, I want to share some news about an exciting event coming up in October. Creative Sprint. Inspired by my own year-long Skull-A-Day project, my company, Another Limited Rebellion, has been hosting this fun, free 30-day challenge each fall to get everyone excited about the benefits of creative practice. So how does this work? Sign up now at CreativeSprint.co and starting on October 1st we will email you a creative prompt each morning for 30 days. You're invited to interpret the prompt however you like and make something inspired by it. Then share your creations. It's that simple. You'll also get access to our private LinkedIn community where you can get inspired by fellow sprinters from across the globe. So head on over to CreativeSprint.co now to get signed up and discover how a small daily act of creativity can lead to amazing inspiration and transformation in your life and work. Welcome to episode 18 of foreground background with me Noah Scalen. I'm an artist, author and corporate creativity consultant and today I'm interviewing Michael Birch Pierce. Michael Birch is a fiber artist and fashion designer. Pierce's intern for Diane von Furstenberg embroidered Christmas decorations for the Obama White House and designed an exclusive collection for Levi's. They have performed their embroidered portraits at Oscar and Super Bowl events, design Miami, South by Southwest and work with clients such as Visa, Target, Amazon Delta, NBC Universal and Airbnb and they've exhibited in numerous galleries and museums both domestically and abroad. In this hour long conversation we discuss surviving as an artist during a pandemic, collaborating with corporations, dealing with scam inquiries and more. I couldn't have made this podcast without my Patreon supporters. The regular writing and reflection I do for my Patreon page has me thinking deeper about the issues that artists have to contend with. I've been talking with other working artists to get their perspective and once I started having these conversations I realized that other people could benefit from them as well. If you enjoy this podcast please leave a comment and let me know what resonates with you and give it a thumbs up or a five star review wherever you listen to it. But of course if you're not already a Patreon supporter I hope you'll check it out at patreon.com/noescalin. Whereas little is $5 a month you can get access to my studio and practice including content available nowhere else. So Michael Birch, thank you so much for coming on my podcast. It's actually been a minute since I recorded a show and we are nearly one year into the pandemic at this point of our recording. I haven't seen anyone in person in a year so I'm not to do it myself anymore. So I guess first and foremost how are you holding up? Buying a thread. Pun intended. Right, right. Yeah. I don't know. The pandemic has been weird, it's been cool to be at my studio and just work on an uninterrupted most of the last year but also I'm desperate to leave Richmond and see friends and travel and have my life back. I'm such an extrovert and I travel so much that being here is exhausting to just sit still and do nothing. It's a good practice in a way to force ourselves to do this other thing because I traveled a lot before this. I mean, I was traveling all the time too. I'm actually on the border between extrovert and introvert so I'm really someone who I was totally fine. My wife is like, we're all very happy to be home and just my daughter is seven is like, yeah, I like to stay at home like it's like, so we're very lucky in that sense but at the same time it's just gone on too long. So like no matter how much we're comfortable with it, it's like everybody's like, all right. There's a limit. But even for the biggest introvert, yeah, for sure, my husband is a, oh, sorry, my husband is a super introvert and he's just, he's loving it, he just like stays in his studio all day long. Well, it's like doing just people fine. Yeah. Like so happy to not have to like commit to any like going anywhere doing it. Like, you know, I felt guilty turning, you know, invitations down and so it must be like, I can't go anywhere. I'm happy to do a Zoom meeting with you. Yeah. I love canceling plans and this is the best, the best for it. So to backtrack a little, how, how would you describe your, your art to people who don't know you already and they'll be a little intro at the beginning of the show, but for cool. I usually describe my art as I put sequins on things for a living. That is underselling it by a large margin. I mean, it's really, yeah. So I'm a textile artist. I focus mostly on embroidery. The work it kind of ranges from a machine embroidery where I do this work where I like draw with my sewing machine from life. And then I also do like really laborious couture like hand embroidered works that is full of rhinestones and sequins and fur and leather and velvet and all sorts of like crazy textures and things. So it's, I don't know, it's all based in fashion. I was originally a fashion designer. So it has this like, this language of a fashion in it, but it's all kind of just sparkly things for the wall. It's awesome, and that does describe it. You studied fashion undergraduate, is that? I did. Yeah, I studied at BCU for undergrad in fashion design. And then you did graduate studies at SCAD, Savannah College of Art and Design and I was in the MFA Fibers program. Okay. So is that where you developed sort of what you're doing now or was that something you were already interested in? Yeah. I hadn't really even done art really. I mean, like I, because I focused my whole life on design, I was planning to be a fashion designer. I was, you know, working in New York, I was, had all these plans and went to grad school and I was like, oh, well, I'm going to focus on textile design in this Fibers program. And then at some point it just switched and I was like, no, I'm just going to be an artist and just like never make an article of clothing again. Well, you know, I studied theater design and I was, I was, yeah, I wasn't intending. It was weird because I didn't really grow up thinking I'd be in the theater world. I actually kind of was interested in the film world, but fell into it from doing volunteer work at theaters and then decided there was a job there. And then got out of school and immediately stopped doing that work entirely. Like I switched to graphic design, right? I was, I was leaving college, did a few more gigs, but, but I shifted to art only. I mean, I'd always been an artist, but I shifted to sort of being like, I want to be an artist and do art for living only in the last 15, 12, 15 years, really. Yeah. Um, but, and so you and you teach as well. Oh, sorry. Yeah. I was, the shift is weird. Uh, when I was in grad school, I'd be the whole time I was in grad school. I was like focused on textile design and I was going to still go back to New York. I job offers at Mark Jacobson, Ralph Rucci, like right out of grad school and was ready to go back. But I spent like six months in Richmond and my professors had been telling me, oh, just make art like quit making garments like this could totally translate to, you know, something on the wall and said, and I was like, no, no, no, I got it in pretty dress. And then, um, somehow in the like the six months after grad school, I was finally like, oh, I guess you were right. And then I like, I like, I started like getting success, like making art. And I was like, well, I guess we're doing this and then I just stopped making clothes altogether. But yeah, but it's weird. I still, I teach, um, at VCU in the fashion design department. So I teach these, uh, students how to, how to make clothes and complete their whole collection. Like in a little like you could do art with this, like, I'm like, you could totally just be in our ass. Um, great advice to, I mean, there's some of them that you can tell, like just don't have a passion for, for design and don't really want to be in the industry. And I'm just like, oh, yeah, well, we could just do this step. It's funny. You said that your teacher sort of saw that and you, because I remember bringing my portfolio into undergrad, when I, I didn't do grad school, but undergrad when I was doing my, going to apply and having them kind of look at it, like, you sure you don't want to be an artist and I was like, no, I want to do this thing because I just thought there was a job in it, you know, like a career, which I didn't see a career in art because my parents are artists. And they had to teach, you know, they didn't, they didn't get to be like artists who live and work as artists. That's not a thing that exists in my world. Like every artist I knew was an art teacher and that's how everybody they knew. So that's what I, what I thought. So did you grow up in Richmond? Did you grew up in the area? I did not know, I mostly grew up in Fredericksburg. Okay. That's the area. An hour away. Yeah, it's, it's the area. But, but Richmond, like, wasn't a place that we were always like up in DC. up north, like Richmond was like every once in a while we'd come down for a brave game or something, but it wasn't. I didn't feel connected to Richmond at all. Yeah, but then your mom was my first art teacher in in college. Oh my gosh, it's crazy class. Yeah. What's wild is with my parents teaching art for so long that they've taught generations of people like literally like parents and children, you know, have had them as teachers, which is wild. So like there's a good, large portion of artists in the area who have had them as teachers, right? So that's really cool. And what was your experience like at the, um, did you feel like art school kind of like resonated with you? Was that like, did you find? I loved art. You found your home, like, you know, I thought it was great. And actually I loved Mim's class. And I told her I was like, I would just take like art foundations and major in this because because art foundations is so cool getting to do everything because I didn't really take that much art in high school. Um, originally my plan was to be a rock star. Um, I've, that's still my plan. Yeah. But then I realized I was like, oh, I've got like no talent in this. There's like, it's pointless. I like played the French horn. I was like, I'm not gonna go be a rock star. These days, it could be possible. In high school, I had this like, this chip on my shoulder. And I was like, oh, no, I'm just like really good at art. Like, naturally, I don't need anybody to tell me how to practice my art. It's like my thing. And so I just like wouldn't take the classes. And then eventually realized I wanted to be a fashion designer. And I was like, oh, okay, I guess I got to take these classes. Yeah, my, my mom told me that every student that came into her class was like the star artist of their school. And they're the best. And they could not handle that everyone in the class was the same as them. And that to stand out in that environment was extremely difficult. It's intense. Like I was teaching for a long time. I've been teaching that class that your mom taught me. Like I was back in art foundations, also teaching like a surface design studio or surface research studio. And so I would give these kids the speech at the beginning of every every year and be like, you know, all of you are the best of the best coming from whatever high school you were in because you're here at BCU, one of the best art schools in the country. Like, you're not going to be the best anymore. And it like, and I basically just jacked the entire lecture on that from the movie center stage. Or what's his name? It's Peter Gallagher is talking to all these like ballet students. And he's like, you all come from the best of the best. And like, he's like, but like a certain number of you are going to drop out. Some of you are going to like break a name. He's like, it's like only one of you has the chance of actually being a ballerina. And it's like, it's devastating. And yet it's, I mean, having taught myself for a long time, it's kind of true. There really is only about 10% of any given class that's like really the like top tier going to do great, which is sort of horrible just here and say. Because pretty much I feel like everyone I talked to was in that percentage. So we all kind of thought that was normal school. But when you become a teacher and you go, Oh, I was the exception to the rule. Like, there's a lot of people were just coasting and just doing this because they don't know what else to do or the parents are making him do it. Yeah. I mean, I say that all the time to to my colleagues that they're just like, God, our kids just getting like lazier. Like what is that? I was like, guys, no, I think that this is how it was when we were in school. It's just like we were the overachievers. Like, I was the person who in a class where I was told to make one dress, I made a whole like five look collection with like multiple pieces and collaborated with a jewelry designer to make all these accessories and like did a whole like photo shoot and threw a fashion show myself. And it was like, I was always the one like going above and beyond. So like I just didn't realize in my peripheral vision that there are all these other people who were just like there to get a degree and see whatever the hell happened with it. Right. Just yeah. So I know it's so funny. You say, I mean, it's exactly the experience I had. And I will say if you do want to stand out to do a thing that's not like like theater school theater design, like I was an artist going to theater design, which meant I stood out because I approached it all differently. I really appreciated theater, but I wasn't a theater kid. And so I didn't quite have that same set of, you know, like didn't have that totally same shared background as a lot of people did in that program. And yeah, like I remember so clearly there wasn't a class where we had to sort of give a Dionysian response to some play. You know, I want to say it was like a mid summer night stream or something, you know, and make a throw up in a box. I think was what the teacher would call a vomit in a box. Make a thing, right. Do some creative response. And so I was like, all right. So I went and like to a butcher shop that was in my neighborhood where I was living. And it was like give me the grossest meat parts that you would normally throw away. And I'm putting this acrylic box. And I'm vegetarian. Yeah, I was like I put in this box and I sealed the box. And I put a little bit. Hadlock, I like hot glued a little padlock on the hasp on the front of it. So it's clear box full of gross meat. And then I like sat at my fridge till it was time for class brought it in. It's, you know, they're like, it's your turn. No, and I just like, wait, I'm going to put it on the table. And I, and everyone's like, what is this? And I was like, oh, represents play like this. And I was like, and I have the key. And I held out the key. And people were diving across the table to stop me from opening this. Everybody hated me in class. And the teacher was like, I love that. I was like, yeah, right. This is like the, yeah, I'm very physical, this is a response. And yeah, people did not like me in that. And I just was like, this is fun. I'm having a good time. This is your twisted. I love it. I was just like, I'm enjoying doing this stuff. But like, I didn't realize I was, you know, everyone else is like, you're making it harder for us, looks like. So did your family was that were they supportive of your art interest and career and goals? Are they? Oh, yeah, I don't know much about your family. My, my mom was a studio art major, you was in school. Back in the 70s. And she was a graphic layout artist for like a printing company for a while. And then became a preschool teacher and just kind of like never really went further from that. She became a mom. And that was her. I mean, that was her purpose in life. Like she loved being a mom. She loved being a preschool teacher. She loved working with kids and used her art a lot in that aspects. You're in that world. And And so I always like had that in my life. I always had that artistic energy. And so when I wanted to be an artist, they're like, okay, cool. Yeah. But we're just going to like do it right. Like you're going to like be an artist who's going to go get a job or you're going to do all the things you need to do and get this degree and Get a 4 1k and health benefits. Yeah. My dad's also a stockbroker. So he's also just like, okay, we're you got the best of both worlds. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I mean, you're in the rare camp that I'm in, which is like the supportive parents who were like sure go for an art career. Like, yeah, that's, that's not common. I feel like so many people's stories are about like fighting against their family to try to do this thing and proving themselves. Yeah, I just like, I'd never had to push back. I mean, it's annoying. You know, them telling me like, I've got to like get a get a 4 1k and benefits and say things and investment. Like, I'm terrible with money. I should have taken a business class at some point. I'm sure they're like horrified or I mean, they were kind of horrified. Like when I like got my masters and, you know, then turned down a bunch of jobs in New York to just Day in Richmond and like make art without a real job or Yeah, Richmond, but Richmond allows you to do that. I think, you know, one of the really special things about this place Is that it's an incubator for all kinds of wacky stuff because it's not so expensive to live here. I mean, New York requires you to have it. You cannot just sort of Bum around New York. I mean, you've got to like, you know, have some you have got to have it together to pay that that rent. I mean, it's just You know, you can eat cheap. You can get cheap entertainment there, but yeah, you can't have a roof over your head cheap. I mean, it's crazy. Like it's being on the subway for like a 45 minutes every morning to get to work and then, you know, like working 12 hour days. Oh my gosh. I like working your ass off to like and having to start out at like nothing in order to like work your way up and Just you spend so much time outside of your shoebox apartment trying just to afford the shoebox apartment right Six hours a night to like sleep and then turn around and go right back and do the job again. I loved the work I did. I loved The fashion industry. I loved New York, but like I don't know. Richmond. I mean, I bought a house. I've got like a backyard of three dogs. Like, you know, I've got a Big studio on an island in the middle of the river. That's, you know, like, yeah, you actually could not have any of that in New York. Why would I Turn this down to go anywhere else. Like the Richmond's just really cool. And then the art scene here is fantastic and it's supportive. It's not like nasty and competitive and Yeah, yeah, and there's only gotten better. Honestly, in the last 20 years, I mean, it's just really Improved considerably because I think it was a little insular when I first came back to Richmond Because I grew up here and then I moved to New York for 10 years and then I came back in 2001 so I missed all the 90s enrichment basically, but but It was exciting to see what was happening and then and then just to watch it grow like the galleries and the and the creative spaces and the collaboration and then eight in the last few years, like the mural world is just exploded here. - Yeah. - You know, just so much cool stuff that's just, yeah, and very positive, very supportive. Love that aspect. Like a lot of issues. - Like there's very little, like nasty competition. Like there's a couple people in and around, you know? - Yeah. - Have some weird attitudes, but like for the most part, like everybody just wants everybody else to succeed and is always like, you know, recommending other people for other jobs, giving other people, it's like really cool. But like even in the early 2000s, I remember like the gallery world, it's like outside of maybe gallery five, it was just like, there was like old white people that like were professors at VCU, like were the, were the art scene enrichment and it wasn't much else to it. And to really grow and to see, you know, younger artists get the opportunities to show and like be a part of that world. And like the energy, like the MFA students who like come here, even that, you know, undergrads who come here, find some success, like feel that energy and then like stick around and like don't like leave town to go be successful in New York or something, they just stay here and kick ass. - Yeah, it's awesome. Because I think along for a long time, Richmond was a sort of Richmond New York pipeline. I think like people graduated and then went up there, then they come back here and there's sort of a lot of back and forth. But well, so I want to dive a little into a conversation that we had started to have online that I, that I was like inspired this particular podcast, which there's a lot of aspects to it to talk about. And so I kind of want to talk about a variety of pieces. One of which is that, you know, you and I do a lot of commissioned work and we do work for corporate clients and that that's a way to earn income as an artist that is pretty awesome and can be a fairly stable resource when selling art just straight off the wall or in the gallery is not. So, and then I'll get to the second part, which was where our conversation started. But so for, I guess first of all, like talk about how you got into doing some of this other work. Like, you know, I think a lot of times when people are wanting like, how do artists make a living? If you're gonna just be like, I'm an artist and I only make money as an artist, which again, a lot of us teach as well and do other stuff like I'm a consultant, I give talks and workshops. How does the corporate sort of gig piece fit in? Where did that come from for you? I guess for people, they don't know the thing that, you know, what you end up doing usually in those gigs. Right. And to give you the kudos, I mean, you've, you've done work with the Obama White House, for instance, like, you know, so I'm pretty, it's been wild. (laughing) Among other things, you know, I mean, I'd be an, you know, artist in Richmond, Virginia, but you've had some very exciting successes. Yeah, it all kind of just happened to me, it feels like, like, so the works that I do actually step, it all stemmed from that Obama White House project. So that's a cool place to start. When I went to SCAD in 2010, in my first quarter, we were just like in class, hanging out, my professor was like, so the president of the university has reached out to me to talk to fiber students. We've been contacted by the Obama White House to design the blue room Christmas tree, which is like the big, like main Christmas tree at the White House every year. And they're like, they're taking proposals and they're gonna see, you know, what? I don't know, I'm telling the story really terrible. They're taking proposals and whatever. So we all submitted proposals and this was a really cool opportunity. Michelle Obama really wanted like student work to decorate this specific tree that year. And so my work got chosen and I got to embroider like a giant 50 foot tree skirt with like embroidered text all the way around it, made it in 48 hours, helped a friend who was also chosen to make a bunch of ornaments. And I was using this process called free motion embroidery where you take the fabric and you move it under the sewing machine to like draw a picture just by like, I don't know, just moving the fabric on the sewing machine. I just already said that. - Yeah, so it's the opposite of moving the tool to draw. So instead of moving the toolstates on one place, and yeah, there you go. - Yeah. So it's fun and it was something I had done before. It's something the most textile artists have done. It's mainly used in quilting to draw cute little flowers and patterns and things on your quilts. But I just got really good at it and really proficient and I had this idea in my head. I was like, well, I wonder if I could take this further from what I'm doing. I wonder if I could just look at something and draw it with the sewing machine rather than having to sketch it all out and just trace over my lines with the sewing machine, which is what most of that project was. And so I developed this practice where I draw people's portraits and do figure drawing with the sewing machine. And it just kind of like took off from there and it went like a little viral on it as viral as you could go in like 2010, like you can't really. But I don't know. So this was a really cool thing and I kept trying to build it into my studio practice and the artwork is like a fine artwork quote unquote that I was making. And it just never quite fit with the rest of the storyline of like what I was doing. So it just became the side thing. And then other people were like, hey, that's really cool. Like do you want to come like do that at my gallery? Do you want to come do this at this? Like I did it at like Sex Fifth Avenue and you know, in the Ellie to Harry boutique on the fifth floor or something. I think it was the fifth floor. I'm telling the story really terribly. But people just started being like, that's really cool. Come do portraits at this event. Come see what's going on. And so it kind of snowballed from there. And so I built this career where people invite me to go to parties and events. I sit there with the sewing machine. People line up in a nice orderly line and I just draw their portraits and it takes three minutes per portrait to just move the fabric under the sewing machine. Draw a pretty good representation of their face and then hand it to them. And they love it and they move on. - And to clarify, when you say parties, you mean South by Southwest and you get flown to other countries and you are, was it the Super Bowl? - It was a Super Bowl series ago, yeah. I mean, so to clarify, parties, not like other people. - Well, the thing is, and then people. - It started with just like hanging out at like Andy Stepanovic's house on Grove and like doing parties. It started like doing portraits for $10 a pop in the window at Quirk Gallery on Broad Street. And now it's snowballed into this thing where like the portraits start at $100 for this. - And who's in line at these parties? - Three minutes to do it. - Lots of celebrities. - Name drop. - I could, okay, I'm gonna name drop, watch your toes. They're been fallen all over the place. But what, but first like the way that this happened, I did this residency and I met this girl, Trish Anderson. And she worked in like the event industry, like designing like crazy, like installations for parties, crazy, and for South by Southwest sort of like things. And so she just connected me with people. She's like, this would be really cool. I don't like a bigger scale. And so she connected me with people when I did art basil in Miami with Airbnb. And so I did portraits at design Miami with them. And that's how everything else started snowballing. So it's on South by Southwest, the Oscars night before party, the Super Bowl, music festivals and Portugal, residences and brands, just all sorts of crazy things. But yeah, so celebrities done Shaquille O'Neal. I did the launch party for his big and tall men's suit collection. I've done, you see Helen Mirin, Bob Odin Kirk, Mark Duploss, Loretta Devine. Some of them are like, people that are like really huge for me, like Candace Bushnell, the creator of Sex in the City. - I don't know. - It does, awesome. - I go to these parties and I sit there and celebrities line up and they sit there and talk to me for like five minutes. Helen Mirin stuck around for like 20 minutes. She was so stoked to see what was happening. Cameron Mannheim and Marcia Gay Hearton were both screaming at me that I was a genius at the Oscars. And I was like, excuse me, Oscar winner, Emmy award winner. And then they yell at Diane Warren from across the room and tell her to come over and see this. And this is like the woman who wrote like, I don't wanna miss a thing. And all these like, that's the song that I pull out. But she was like, she like Oscar winning songwriter, like brilliant woman. And she's like coming over to the three of them or like yelling at me, but I'm amazing. And I'm like, okay, this is cool. It's just my job. - I love it. And I love that it started with you going, oh, I wonder if I could, you know, do this thing. You know, what happened if I did this? And I feel like that's like the artist thing, right? is like the thing that we do is is that is the random thought that we put into action. And then the little steps, you know, you didn't do that and then you're, I'm at the Oscars pre-party. It was now I'm, you know, doing this, you know, window and it's $10 or whatever. You know, like, yeah, it's incremental. It isn't sudden, but it does come from actually doing it and then doing it for somebody else encounters it. Exactly. A lot of it, I talk about like, a lot of it just happened to me. It was me doing something that I was passionate about, something that like really gave me a lot of joy. Like I could talk to you for like an hour and a half on the, you know, the art series that goes into the portraits that I do that are just some dumb little party trick. But for me, or me and a lot about human connection and interaction and technology versus the hand and all these other things that I was like writing about in grad school. But other people saw its potential and other people saw my potential and I was open to their suggestions. I was opened. I'm just, I'm good at like meeting people and making that connection and and seeing where it goes. Like that networking thing has just helped this turn into a whole career. Like it's, I don't advertise myself. I don't like go out. Other than Instagram, like I don't really put myself out there. I don't apply to these jobs or something. It's I don't have an agent who gets me all these things. People meet me at these events and then they say, hey, can you do this other event? Or they hear from word of mouth that something happened. And so it just kind of like has snowballed into something where I can support myself a pre-pandemic going to parties because they can't go to parties and events now. But it just turned into a career where I was able to like quit any full-time job I had and just you know go do a party a month all year and then pay all my bills. It was just been pretty cool. That's amazing. And I do want to bust a little bit of your like it just happens to me because I think that that is true but not true. And I think a lot of times and I feel that way too. Like you know word of mouth is pretty much the way a lot of folks get their really good work. It you know advertising for an artist doesn't seem to really do the job and you know we're not in industry where that makes sense. But you have to do the work. You have to show up. You have to you know get put yourself out there. You got it because people saw it. You connected with people. You were approachable. You were friendly. You know I think there's artists who are extremely good at what they do but are jerks and horrible people to be around and you know they're not going to get the opportunities that a person who shows up is not as savvy as smart as can converse and understands the value of their work and can follow the openings when they appear you know go through the doors as they open. Right it's I mean it's it's those people skills it's the extroversion. Is that a word the extrovertedness whatever it is? It's all of that that I know is why I'm good at the job. It's it's the job that I do and the meeting people because like in a night doing these portraits I've got to meet like 80 to 100 people you know just like back to back to back to back and have a little conversation with them and have them feel special and and and make a connection um and I know that would be terrible and boring like I could still be doing this cool thing but if I just sat there and like didn't talk to people then people wouldn't hire me for these things yeah I tell my students all the time that the you know the big part of why I'm successful is because I know how to talk to people it's because I've honed these skills um and it's it's it's weird I talked to a class one time where I did a lecture I can't remember what it was where I realized how much of it was connected to connected to my queerness how much of it was connected to growing up and and building and developing the skills of having to be um whoever it was necessary for me to be in order survive in any given situation if that makes sense yeah um this idea of code switching and figuring out like how much of yourself is it appropriate to show how much of yourself is it safe to show how much can you be yourself and so you learn how to be whoever anybody else is around like needs you to be how to fit into any group and and that that I developed as a survival skill growing up as a queer kid in small town for jinnia um really I think has led to me being able to walk into any party full of celebrities or at the super bowl where I don't know I didn't know who the hell jibberi's was when he came up like I don't uh you know but like I make everybody feel like we're friends and and I fit into whatever situation so I think that's a I don't know that's a big part of why I'm successful I think that's huge and I think it's good to to note that because you know you're really taking what isn't what is potentially a negative right I mean the fact that you sort of had to develop the survival skill because of our culture because of the society that we live in but then it turns out to be a benefit in the long run because you've developed a capacity to do this thing I mean it looks on you while you try high school looking at me now that's what you get for doing that to me yeah now I'm at the super bowl and you're no and you've never been but I went because you were mean to me there you go it all comes around but I think it's good to I think it's good to know that because that doesn't happen in a vacuum you know that that is part and parcel um so and you did mention you know that pandemic has changed that because you aren't able to go to big parties anymore so is there a version of that you're doing now or how how are you sort of making ends meet then yeah I'm just hustling um it's weird like usually um like I'm starting my taxes now and usually I have like 20 1099s to file every year at least from like different freelance work and different companies this year I have literally to wow like it's like I just if they complete uh um all all of it just dried up um uh but I've been selling a lot of work online um I've been I've managed to find some cool partnerships with big brands some some that I was connected to pre pandemic some who found me during the pandemic a lot of companies trying to figure out how to engage with their audience engage with creative um how to create content during the pandemic um I got really lucky being able to work with a couple big brands this year um and right now I'm trying to figure out how I can do these portraits like via zoom like how can I like sit in a zoom chat with like you know 20 people on the grid and like do these portraits and have that be something that they can like watch and experience virtually um that seems like an easy enough thing to do I'm surprised you haven't done it yet it's cool I've done it a couple times just kind of like testing it out with like friends and things I you know it's it's for me it's figuring out how do I how do I market this how do I how do I build it back into the the business models that I had going before right but I love that there's corporate there's you know brands reaching out to you and saying hey you know because I mean the one good thing ish about this at least we're all going through it you know it's not like only certain sector is dealing with like everybody is which means the brands are too and so they still need to find ways to connect to customers who aren't going to stores and so so that's awesome that they're reaching out to artists I mean I had I've done some of those collaborations myself this year and um love seeing the work that you got to do because of that and that you know there's still opportunities you have to just be creative about what those are and right what like what they look like right yeah I mean I had one at the beginning of the pandemic when everything started shutting down I already had a contract with um Amazon Prime Video and I was I was supposed to do portraits for them at the premiere in New York of their new fashion reality show making the cut so I was supposed to be there with Tim Gunn and Heidi Klum and all of these fashion people just doing portraits of them they were like ordering all the stuff it was like all set up as a party I was going to pre-embroider all of these like garment bags before we even got to there all these like gifts that we could give people it was going to be lucrative it was going to be great it was going to be a cool opportunity to get my work in front of people that could probably do a lot for me and you know Amazon's a big company it was my first chance to work with them and that was scheduled for I think it was March 23rd was the day of that party so of course that got canceled um and it was horrible on the day that that everything started just like shutting down into lockdown everything's cancelled I lost 30,000 dollars in contracts one day um which is more than a lot of people making a year and it was like devastating I had no idea what I was going to do but luckily Amazon came back to me after canceling this thing and they're like hey so we've already paid it to pause it so how like could we work with you maybe could we put that towards an event like after after the pandemic or something. was like, yeah, but I mean, I'm probably gonna spend it by the time it's over. So like, let's figure it out. And then like the next day, they were like, okay, what about this? What do they shifted to like this online method of promoting this show? And they contacted all of the people that were supposed to do crazy cool artistic experiential things at that premiere party. And they instead had us do artistic interpretations of garments from the show and then just blast them on social media as part of their promotion when the finale aired instead. So I went from a night of doing portraits that was gonna be fun and cool in person at a party to instead getting to do some of my fine artwork. That's a bit more laborious, which is a bit more exciting and fulfilling for me. And I had to work a solid week on this project or what I would have gotten paid for one night. But I got to do this really cool thing that they blasted all over Instagram and social media connected me to all of these designers and cool people. So I don't know, it worked out. It was like making a shift into how do we do this and the pandemic was great. And like, yeah, and it gave me an opportunity, you wouldn't have gotten, had things gone along as normal. Yeah, absolutely not. So that's awesome. So speaking of getting these gigs, the way that we get these gigs is people often just reach out to us randomly. - It's like random call call to you. - Yeah, I get it through my website form, you know. And you posted on Instagram the other day, one of these things that you get through these forms. And it was a very familiar form letter. - Yeah. - And the key element was usually it's someone saying, I want, I saw your work online over like my wife's shoulder. - Yeah, it's like so detailed. - It's very specific. And she loves your work and I really want to get something for how much is your art. - Yeah. - It's like a specific and vague at the same time. - Yeah, he never says like, I love this about your art. - Yeah, this specific piece, it's just your art. And sometimes there's some typos and-- - Oh, there's always typos. - But he's always like, I want something in the like the $5,000 range. - Yes. - And please send me what's available. - Give a price list or whatever. - And it's like, it sounds like normal. It sounds cool. But I mean, like obvious the way that we're talking about it. Like we've seen this email before. This is some email that's been going around to artists for like at least a decade. - Yeah, I think as long as artists have websites that you could like email them from, if you could find an artist online, you've gotten this one of these emails, some version of it. And what's interesting is if you cut and paste the text into Google, you will find plenty of places saying, I got one of these, this is real, or somebody being like, here, let me debunk this for you. - Yeah. - And it's so consistent the language that the same people, whoever's using lots of people are doing this, but they're using the same body copy. - Yeah. - That you kind of know, it's a shady thing. And so I never fell for it. But I certainly, the first few times, you get a little like, huh, let me research this a little. And then after all, you're like, I get it. Did you ever get sucked into one of these or did you get it right from the beginning that it was not real? - I think the first time it ever happened to me, I saw, I was like, this is strange. And I did not, no, I didn't fall for it. But I've got lots of friends that have, or like, I posted that in my stories. I posted that in my stories like twice in the last year during the pandemic, I've gotten that same email. I've probably gotten it at least a dozen times in the last 10 years. If I had friends, be like, I got this too. And I talked to them for like three weeks. And it just got really strange. I was like, you got into three weeks of conversations with this guy. And a lot of times it's these like younger artists who like don't know better and see this opportunity. And it's just like, oh, well, this guy can't spell very well. It's not a big deal, but like. - It's so hard because I think if you are trying to make a living innocent artist, you're looking for every opportunity you can get. And there are people that will take advantage of you. And it's hard because you can't close yourself off to these opportunities because you'd never know how people are gonna reach you. That people do reach out through every platform that you've got with these weird requests. Somebody's like, why did I get this weird instant message? I don't even know who this is. And it's about a job, but they found me this way. So I better respond to it. And so when you get these scam emails, and it's just interesting 'cause that they exist for every industry. But I think so as artists, it's just surprising to like when you get to the level where you encounter this and you're like, huh, this is a thing in my world. - And it's weird because I guess we should say the basis of the scam is that he's trying to pay you via cashier's checkers of some sort. - And it's an advance. And I think what happens is you, he's like, oh, it's too much. I give you too much, right? I need to give back-- - Well, I'm not far enough into it. - If I, the ones I've read about, I think it's, that you deposit it and then you're supposed to give them back some of the money and you give it back before you're paying - That's a lot of Nigeria and France scam. - Yeah, I think it's that. It's a variation on that. - It's weird. - Are you like cash it and then they find out the check is bad and-- - Yeah, but you've already done something else before that. But I don't know if art actually ever is supposed to exchange hands as part of it. I don't know that that's actually, I think it's just trying to steal money from you. - Yeah. - So when you posted this, I was like, oh, I know this experience and it's, first it's just good to let other artists that are listening know and anybody who's not an artist know that like when you write an artist, try to not use misspellings and say, I saw your work over my spouse's shoulder. - Yeah, be very specific and say, I like this work. - The specific piece. - I would like for you to do this. - Make it clear you're a normal human that's not a scam. - A person. - 'Cause that's just a thing we encounter and we have to be very suspicious now. The other part of it though is that they do come through sometimes and I said, let me tell you by the time that this happened to me where it was real and you said you had the same experience. So what was your experience? - Oh, so many of my like good clients have just been like weird and sketchy or just like people who don't really like know how to make this deal with an artist who's gonna come doodle portraits with a sewing machine. And so it's like, I'm just like, all of this is a scam, but this can't be real. Especially they're dropping some big name. - Yeah. - You're like, come on, this is how these guys contact you as just some weird email. - And it's weird, like I get so many inquiries for events and then I like send in my price sheet and then I never hear from them again because like, I mean, I've been working for like Visa and Airbnb and Amazon and leave out, you know, like a work really is like big companies. So I'm like, you can't afford me. And so a lot of people just kind of like send me an email and just leave when they realize it's good for me. - So I'm used to like having conversations that go nowhere and so I'm generally willing to like entertain, you know, a question unless it's what that obvious scam. But like during the pandemic, even the most recent time that I thought for sure, this is a scam, was someone from Pinterest reached out to me and they emailed and they said, hey, we want you to design a mask for us for this like, this mask promotion that we're doing like during the pandemic and we're trying to find artists to do this and we're gonna pay you this much. At least like before we even started talking, they were like, this is how much the pay is. Like, is this cool? Do you want to do it? And the pay was so exorbitant. - Right, you're like, this has got to be fake. I was like, this is a scam. I was like checking the email, like making sure it came for those like Googling the, like I had to do the research to make sure like, I'd also like had a future. 'Cause I got the email at like 10 o'clock at night and I was already here. - Also, who's the emailing about work at 10 a night about this project, you know? - Right, well, I guess Pinterest is in San Francisco. So, - Okay. - Still end of the work day. - Yeah, I'm going to the work day. But yeah, maybe that's just when I saw it 'cause it was long done with my work day. But I was not for sure. It ended up being one of the things that kept me completely going bankrupt during the pandemic. It was fantastic. But I had to like make a single mask and then a little tutorial on how to make it. And then they had Rico Nasty wear it on Instagram and promote it and say Rico Nasty for your old, so I'll tell you, she's a rapper, Noah, cool and people like her a lot. - Noted. - I had to Google her, I didn't know she was. I told my students about her and they were like, what? And you're like, is that a thing? - It was like is she a thing and they're like, yes. - And you love it and then you're like, cool. You're like, look at that. I'm cool. - It was like, yeah, I'm cool. I mean, I'm asking Rico Nasty. - Yeah. - But like, there's so many other times I got a, years ago I got a random email. It was the day I had done John Malkovich's portrait at the SCAD graduation and sat down with him and hung out with him for 10 minutes and it was like, well, this is fantastic. Then I like got a random email from someone in Portugal who wanted me to do a music festival. And they're like, we're looking for an embroidery person to come to this music festival in Portugal. And of course, it was like typos. It was like broken English. It was, it was really weird. I was like, oh, this could be awesome. And then I was like, ooh, this could be a scam. And I ended up like entertaining it [BLANK_AUDIO] what was happening was like, whatever, it can't hurt. And it ended up being like six days in Portugal for this like amazing music festival that like, "Depesh mode" and the "Foo Fighter" and it was a weekend, we're headlining and it was just this amazing opportunity and they were like paying me like, really good money. But then like, the money didn't come because they were like wiring it to me. So they ended up being legit and they ended up going but everything was all kind of sketchy and it was stressed me out so much not knowing if it was real or like what the hell was happening but then we had contracts that did stuff. I left for Portugal and I had planned to spend six days in Portugal and then I was gonna go spend a week in the South of France where I used to live and go see some friends and do some work there. 'Cause once you're already in Europe, you might as well just bounce around on a $75 flight and see some more things. But when I left, I didn't have the money in my account. So I left for Portugal and France for two weeks with $200 in my checking account and that was all the money to my name at that time. - And just crossing your fingers that this was gonna like be legit. - Crossing my fingers that was legit. I had no idea what I was gonna show up for. I had never heard of the company. I had never heard of the music festival. I had never heard of this hotel I was supposed to stay in. I ended up being a five star resort hotel and ended up being treated like a king like just non-stop drinks like overlooking 100,000 people like de Pesh mode playing. It was like on my birthday de Pesh mode was like headlining the final night of this evening at like clock struck midnight. I was surrounded by Portuguese celebrities. They brought out a cake for me. It was incredible and that gig paid for my wedding. - Oh my gosh, so the lesson is, it might be a scam. - It might be a scam, but it might be worth it. - It might be the best gig you've ever had. So I have no idea what people can take away from that because Jesus like you don't wanna then be like, "Hey, you're a scammer. "You're gonna be like, I better research this." I guess that's the answer, right? You better do the research. - It's gotta do a lot of Google. - And then kind of half trusted, I did the same thing. I ended up in Brazil. Like literally being, I don't even know if this is real until I land and someone picks me up at the airport and it's real. Like I was so like, I have no idea what I got myself into. And of course, like totally legit. I was at like amazing boutique hotel. I had a driver drive me around Brazil. Like it was incredible. And I was like at a fashion show. But yeah, it read like this was not gonna be the real thing. And I had a commission, or not a commission, somebody wanted purchase and existing piece of art. And the email literally said, I was looking over my wife's shoulder. - Really? - This piece, and I was just like, I wrote them back and I said, you know, 'cause I Googled their address and it wasn't the usual one. And the language wasn't exactly the same, but it was so close. It was like, my wife likes your work. I wanna buy our piece for her birthday. How much is it? I was like, all right. So I wrote, I said, like, I hope you understand, like this can be a scam. Like, and I need to understand that it's not. And so he was very cool. It was like, really? This would be a scam? Like, yeah. So then it like, he like owned restaurants on the Cayman Island. So like, okay, you're an actual person who's in the position I can find. But again, was like, I need you to pay me some money upfront. Like I cannot trust that you're gonna send me a check. And that check's gonna be real. - Oh, absolutely. - You have to have another way of doing this because so you just have to take a lot of precautions. But I love that the reality is that you can still get that completely out of the blue, weird email from anywhere in the world. And it can be the thing that gives you an amazing. - It happens all the time. It kind of makes me want to like, check my email right now and see if there's someone. - What's the next goal? I have to say that is the worst part. It's like when you're like, between things and you're just keep endlessly checking your email, you're like, where's that next super cool random project that I have no control over? It's gonna just drop in my lap. Yeah, I mean, it's actually, I need to get like an agent or like a- - Tell me if you figured that one out. No one I know artist I know has an agent. - I have a friend who's an artist as an agent. She also has like 700,000 Instagram followers. So like, it's a little different than us. - She's fine. She does art work for like Cartier and Disney and stuff. But she's got an agent who like when she goes on a trip, they're like, hey, like her agent like booked the whole thing and she flies only business class and she always gets to take a plus one. So when she has to do a random, you know, shakes wedding in Qatar, she gets to bring a friend with her. - All right, y'all, let's pay for it. I'm like, that's great. And that would be great. I need an agent who will just vet all of these opportunities and just send me the good ones and say, this works with your schedule. This is good money. We've already done all the negotiating. Just show up here. Like, that's what I want. - Well, when you tell me when you figure that out, how that do do that? - Oh, I will. - I'll bring you back on the podcast for a special episode. - Would you explain exactly how to get that? 'Cause I would be all about it. - So, the most, I was gonna say, I just remembered this other scam that ended up being a scam recently. And it was, I don't even remember how it ended, but someone reached out to me on Instagram and said, hey, we want you to promote our clients merchandise on your feed and it will pay you for a sponsored host and then you just have to say how much you love it. And so I was like, okay, what's the product? And they're like, high quality artists grade pushpins. And I was like, pushpins, you know what I mean? I guess I used a lot of pushpins in the studio. - And I was actually out of pushpins at the moment when they emailed. And so I was just like, I was like, okay, so I told them like my costs and stuff. And they're like, how much for an in-feed post and this and that and it was kind of broken English, but it wasn't terrible. And so I was like, okay, whatever. And I gave him my rates and they're like, oh, that's a lot of money, like really? And I was like, well, I mean, my last gig was with Levi's. And so yes, I charged a lot of money for this. And they're like, we can pay like 50 bucks. And I was like, you know what, give me 50 bucks. I'm gonna do this post for, I just want this story of promoting pushpins on my page. Like that's great. And so we're like, we're talking back and forth and they were like, okay, we'll pay you like what's your paypal and I was like, well, this is my paypal and send it to them and then they sent me money on paypal and they're like, okay, do the post. And I was like, I don't have your pushpins yet. And they're like, okay, they're like, they're like, you could either buy them and we'll reimburse you for the pushpins or we could send them to you or what? I was like, okay, well, what even is the break? You still haven't told me what the brand is, but you've already sent me 50 bucks. And they sent, I was like, just what pushpins are they? And they sent me a pair, like generic non-brand $4 pack of pushpins on Amazon. I said, this is them, it was like literally like it was just called like best pushpins. It was like no brand name on them at all. There was nothing other than the same crappy, clear pushpins that everyone has. I was like, you told me I was doing like high quality artist grade pushpins. There was like, this is not this. And so I was like, no, I'm not going to say, I kind of like started ghosting them and then they were like, hey, hey, we need to do, we have to go on this, it has to happen. And I was like, no, this is a scam. Like, would you want me to like send all my followers to a link for them to put in their credit card information on a site to buy pushpins from you that aren't legit? And so then they filed like a PayPal thing to get their money back and PayPal was like, we've got people like contesting this. I was just like, I'm going to keep the money paid. I was like, I was like, here's all the screenshots that prove that this is like really scammy and sketchy. And I was like, they sent me money without a contract. I didn't tell them that I needed the money that that point before the thing happened. And then they proved to be sketchy. So I kept that $50. - Wow, you're, that's amazing. You made money off of scammers. - I scammed the scammers, yes. - I actually haven't gone back to check. I don't think I ever got an email about a resolution for it. But I don't think PayPal took the money back. - Wow. - I think I kept that city bug. - You took a real journey there. That was a, there's just a whole other side to the internet. It's just like so bizarre. - Yeah. - I love that. - Well, that was amazing. Thank you. I mean, I just, I mean, I knew there's good stories. Yeah, it's like I've got to get these stories. So I, that's kind of like what I want to talk about. But I want to add. - That's cool, bye. - Yeah. (laughing) We, so this podcast really had started out as me kind of wanting to learn a bit about other people who have success and like what they, how they managed it. Like where did it come from? Like, you know, I know my story, but I don't know other, you know, like you sort of see it from the outside, especially when you look at your, oh, you were, you know, they worked for Levi and you're like, how did that, you know, happen? And I think it's important to see the other side of it and be like, what's the reality of this, you know, how does this happen? What's the, what's the process? What are the pieces here? What do you do as an artist? - Done luck and a lot of debt. - There you go. But the other piece I think is, you know, we work a lot with corporate clients and they're interested in what we do too. And I think, you know, sort of thinking about what we do, how that translates to what they do is interesting, at least for me. And I think so, you know, I guess thinking about the work as an artist, what you've learned as an artist, what translates to people and outside of the art world. What would, you know, if you had advice to to say like, here's why you should be like an artist or think like an artist or act like an artist. Don't do it. Yeah, um, I don't, I don't know. So wait, what's the question? How do I, how do I tell? What would you, how would you, I mean, another way to put it is like, how would you encourage sort of the artist mindset in someone who's not necessarily considering themselves an artist or creative? What would you do to encourage that? Because we, we get that it's valuable. I think we know, we can default to say, this is valuable stuff. Like being able to grab a random idea and say, let me spool this out a little. And then it turns it to a career opportunity. Well, I think that that's, that's kind of like my storyline. And that's kind of how I've always approached it when asked to do like, because I just like you, I've, I've gotten like given talks to corporate clients and stuff, like they don't always just like make me do portraits. Sometimes they make me do a whole TED talk for them. Um, and for me, it's like, uh, just be open to whatever opportunities are out there. Like always like explore, like the only reason why I do what I do now, the only reason I have these portraits and things, uh, paying all of my bills is that I had this like weird little question in my mind. I was like, I wonder if I could do that. And so I, and instead of just saying, I wonder if I could do that. I'll do that sometime. I like sat down in my studio when I just did it. You know, like you have to, to try all of these crazy ideas. But like my studio wall is full. Like I'm looking up right now. I was like, there's a million experiments up here that I have probably take down put in a drawer somewhere. Um, of things that I tested out. And it was like, that was really good. I'm going to do this bigger, um, and then never did it. But there's some things that like I did all these tests, these samples. And it didn't go anywhere. And it wasn't worth seeing through to something bigger and better and cooler. But I'm glad that I did it. I got these ideas out of my brain. Um, so I don't know, just get the ideas out of your brain. Like put them on a page, like write them in a sketchbook and doodle something next to it. See what happens when you move that onto a different surface. Um, but when it all just stays in your head, like rolling around, then nothing ever is going to come to fruition from that thing. Um, and then like once you start doing it, just keep yourself open to opportunities. Like, you know, I've just allowed other people to kind of give me things. And I'm like ready to take it. Ready to, yeah, I'm ready to do an Instagram ad for a pushpin. Uh, when the, when the legitimate one comes along, you will be the first. Yeah. When I see that pushpin ad on your feed, I'm going to go, wow, they did it. It kind of makes me just want to like do a pushpin ad, just for shits and giggles. Um, I don't know, but just like I jump on like random weird opportunities all the time, I just like see where that's where that's going to take me. Like sure, like I, I, Pinterest said, will you make a mask? And I was like, I don't want to make masks, but I will take your money. And then that like led to some other really cool things happening. So I don't know. Is that, is that good? Absolutely. No, I think that's better than good. I think you know, curiosity, openness, willing to try, but I think you said it, getting it out of your head. Uh, there's a million people. There's many more than a million. There's many millions of people who think, uh, if only, only I could, I wish I had, look what they, you know, and the difference is really just doing it and not talking about it. And yeah, it might not be great. Like I said, you've got experiments. You got things that didn't come out right. But those are the things that led to the things that did come out right. Yeah. That's great. I mean, the, the first time I did Shikiloneal's portrait, it was lot-sided and hideous. So I did it again until I got it right. And he liked it. There you go. Do it twice for Shikiloneal. That was, that's just one last name drop for you. I worked for, I worked for a clothing company in New York called Ava Rex, which is kind of long gone, but still exists. I've heard of them. Yeah. In a name, it still exists. But at the time, they were doing all these hip-hop jackets and, um, and they did one for Shaq. And I was, it was in the studio where I was working as I was doing design. And I, I got to pick up Shaq's jacket, which is like 6XL. And I could fit my, I could fit my own whole body in the sleeve of the jacket. I was going to say, like, did you like call it to it, like, like, like, our words? If I put it on, I mean, I just look like a, a toddler. But, you know, I could fit my, I could just fit it so you could have multiple people in one Shaq jacket. I love a, that's, that's wild. Um, one time I was working on a, on a museum exhibition, and I picked up a pair of Anna-Wintour sunglasses. So, the editor of Vogue, the inspiration for Devilware's product, I picked up her sunglasses and I put them on my face. So I have a picture of me wearing Anna-Wintour's actual sunglasses. And you like transferred the magic into your body? And I lived. Well, and then through that exhibition, I actually got to meet her. And it was just like, this wild. Thanks for listening to foreground background with me Noah Scalen. If you want to know more about Michael Birch Pierce, check out their site, MichaelBerchPierce.com, and @MichaelBerch on Instagram. These will both be in the show notes. And if you want to help me make more things like this show, please consider becoming one of my Patreon supporters at patreon.com/noascalen. And of course, please rate and review this podcast wherever you found it. The music used on this episode is Flying High 2019 Hit Pop Remix by Jantracks. [Music]