Michael Bingham of Spiritual Cramp

I got home from a tourier yesterday and I was hanging out with my wife and I was like, "We play this really beautiful show. Have you ever played the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco?" You know that room? Yeah. Gorgeous, pre-earth quake room. Yeah, yeah. And we sold it out to the gills with a hundred-person guest list. Right. People were hanging off the friends. Every person in the room knew that we were in the show. I had all of my family in a reserved box. We all had our families in their reserved seats and every person in the room knew lyrics. And we played this beautiful show and we played so well. Yeah. And they all got to see it. They all got to see the thing that's happening right now. Right. And it's most thoughtful form. From bad times, I don't want to have bad. Yeah. Here we are. Well, thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. This is amazing. Thanks. Yeah, how are you doing? How are you doing? I'm really good. I got back yesterday from like a 40-day tour. The rudest band in the world. That's me. The rudest guy I'll ever meet. You don't strike me as rude. I don't get rude. Yeah. Well, well, there's some, so sometimes. Yeah. We have a part of us. We only really expose it in our art. Yeah. And then there's the more front facing part of us, which is a little bit more maybe reserved. Certainly. Then we are in our-- Man, I was digging. You're just going right in. I just dig in. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I definitely think that that is what happens with the band. I mean, you know, the band started. And it was a little that part of it. You know, that-- One of the coolest band names ever, by the way. Spiritual camp. Thank you. Spiritual camp is a great name. Yeah. I've always loved it. Well, we were looking for a band name and a friend was like, "Why don't you name it after this Christian Death Song?" And I thought that was a cool idea. But yeah, when we started, it was much more lawless. I mean, it started in San Francisco. Yeah. We were all running around the bars at, like, little gremlins, you know, causing trouble. Very punk. Yeah. Very, like, whatever. Let's just make some cool seven inches and cool guy. Everyone we meet. You know what I mean? Like, the intention behind it was not what it is today. You changed that. You changed that. What changed the intention? Yeah. What changed that attitude? Time. Time. And, you know, like, I think that I have always had like an ambition. Right. Like, we all have ambitions that I have. I have them. I'm feeling that. Yeah. As I walk into the studio, I'm saying this ambition behind this. Yeah. By the way, the quote about how anything built on a grand scale invites chaos. Yeah. It's kind of cool, right? It's extremely. Yeah. It's very real. The artist that did that was revoke. Oh, that's revoke. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Very cool. That's cool. That's a revoke piece. One of the last great, active, okay. I'll get in trouble, because I'm not a graffiti guy. So all the graffiti people out there, just think of me as your dumb cousin. Yeah. Me too. But they know that I'm the dumb cousin too. Okay. The purpose of that, one of the real active graffiti artists rebels out there of our time, I'd say. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I don't think I'll get in trouble for saying that, but I always respected him. Yeah. MSK did a lot of work in San Francisco in the early 2000s. So we all knew who they were as well. They came up and rocked all those jagged letters all over the city. But yeah. I mean, ambition, right, is just this thing that is inside of you, right? And it's like a moving target, and you have a blindfold on. And you say, well, I want to go somewhere, and I think it's in this direction. And as you start chasing whatever it is that, you know, whatever it is inside of you tells you to chase, you know, that thing inside says, go and go and swing at this. You learn how to walk in that direction more efficiently and untie, you know, sometimes you do things. You tie your shoelaces together on accident, right? And you learn how to untie them, and then you learn how to get better shoes for walking. Right. So I think that like some of those things, you know, like being a nasty punk band who like is going to get in fights everywhere you go and, you know, we hung out. This band was born in the tenderloin in San Francisco. Yeah. It's a very crazy place. Yeah. Totally. Every time I've ever been there, I'm like, oh, my goodness. Yeah. I feel like I'm in danger right now. Yeah. And like we played, our first show is at this bar called the hemlock and like, yeah, I know that bar. Yeah. Never been in there. And you know, as a band has grown, like, it's like I, in particular, as you know, the figure head of the band, I've just, I've put a lot of effort into consciously trying to grow and consciously trying to get better at movement and you know, a lot of those things don't, a lot of those, those rude, you know, those rude behaviors, they're not productive in the sense of going forward. Yeah. And with as little trouble as possible. Yeah. Because if you're solving small problems all the time because you've created small problems in, in meaningless, you know, it's like to pick your battles kind of thing. Yeah. Well, if I can move through a room without making enemies the whole time, I can get through that room and probably be invited back and come, actually come back and forth through that room. Yeah. As long as I don't create enemies for myself and I, I think exactly what you're saying, I'll be honest with you. To me, I was like, Oh, this is a very cool band and I have no idea, oh, idea how this conversation is going to go. But that's also like, you came on so, dude, so it's exciting for me. Yeah. The first thing we start talking about is growth mindset, being more productive. That's my language. Well, I fucking care about it. Yeah. I live in LA. I know what you guys are doing. Cool. And I'm inspired by it. Thanks, man. I mean, truly. Thank you. You know, I mean, I don't mean to get too, like, business-y, but like I say that diversification is the key to wealth. Yeah. And it is actually everyone listening. Yeah. Like, really? It really is. I love to just be the singer, to a band and be like, I don't know, this success just happened to me. And all I do is like make my little songs. Yeah. That's not the truth for anyone. Yeah. Doesn't matter what they say. Yeah. To do this, well, you have to try. You have to care. To do this. You have to organize. You have to try to do better. You have to look at, like, doesn't matter, I'll carry it. Any band says, I'm not super critical when I hear a band talking about, I'm fucking care. But I'm like, well, I wish you successful in this as a, if you're making money doing this, you have organized yourself to a degree that's more organized than a street punk band that hasn't put a record out, that I'll never put a record out that you'll never hear of unless you saw them at that show with those other band. So you have to organize to be successful at this. So let's just be real about it. It's totally. And like, you're doing that, but I'm saying there are some times you hear people and I'm like, well, that's a nice idea. Yeah. That you don't care. That sounds tremendous. I'm, I'm, I'm holy jealous of someone who's like, yeah, I don't know this is, but I just, that's not my experience. That's not true. I think it can happen. It will accidentally happen to someone on the first record. And then sustaining it and, and, and, and, and real growth, you know, those that in longevity takes the organization. Yeah. Totally. And, you know, I, I know you guys are doing, you know, with, with all this and, and, and, you know, mad and management. Yeah. All the companies. Everything. And, and it's like that is if I can even scratch a surface of that, well, you can't, I'm trying, I'm just really trying. I'm desperately trying. I've been desperately trying for 30 years. Totally. So that's how it feels. You know, because you moved to LA, right? And you start to meet like people who have success. Yeah. That's, that's, that does happen. And, um, that is the vibe that I get that it is just always a constant, you know, we're always just pushing a rock uphill, right? And it's a, it's a moving target, man, like, I would love to just at one point be like, Hey, that was, that was great. I'm going to go become a postman, but it's that thing inside that's like, now just keep, just keep walking. It's keep going in the direction. It's absolutely the scariest choice. It's terrifying. And then you get more and more comfortable living in that space. Yeah. But I agree with you. And you're speaking my language, honestly, as like someone who is, you know, much like yourself, I actually didn't know where you came from. And then hearing you say, you're from Maryland, from Maryland, you know, how it is around these parts, right? You, you're going to meet someone you're like, I wonder if they have rich parents. Yeah. It's LA. And that doesn't mean it's not bad or it's not good. You know, people can come from wherever they want, but, you know, hearing you say like, I, you know, I didn't come from much of it. I didn't either. And, you know, even getting to come into your home, you know, whatever you call this, it's this home. Yeah. Yeah. Getting to come into your home. I am, how do I say this? It's exciting to me to be able to even be able to sit in this chair with you and kind of be like, Oh, we're like, I'm sort of speaking the same language as someone. And who has done a lot and, and, and that's really exciting. I mean, you know, it's like, yeah. Like you said, it's like a never ending thing, I think. But yeah, it's exciting to be here and to hear you say all that, I'm like, you say living at the edge of your comfort zone, I'm like, cool, I'm doing that. Yeah. It's always a little scary. Oh, my, I live in fear and it is, it is all about how you manage that. Remember the fear though, the fear is a healthy respect for what's at stake. Yeah. Right? The fear is going all in. Yeah. But you know you have aces. If you're a real entrepreneur, you know you have aces. I got them everything. I know I have aces. When I go all in, I know what I have. You know, Tom Brihan, who works at Stereo, or just Stereo Gum, he wrote an article about us one time and in the article, he mentions many times about how what we're doing looks effortless. Yeah, it does. It does. And I was like, you have no idea how much we talk about. You know, it's like every moment during the set, even even the size of the amps, do they look good, you know, every piece of it? Every detail matters. Every detail. Everyone says, some people sell chaos, some people sell this, some people sell that. They're all selling in a feeling that people get and it's a good thing. So I'm not saying, but you have to, you have to be precise enough to carry the show so that the chaos can happen. So even if you're not planning in between or whatever, it doesn't matter. It's being able, you did write a set list, you did look at where the fucking amps were going, you did decide on the lighting, you did decide on all the, to whatever level of detail you were involved in or not as an artist, you did make a decision. And then you constructed a show so that even if nothing's planned, you still constructed a show for the, to contain the chaos so that it could happen that people could experience it. Yeah. And otherwise you wouldn't have gone on on time, you wouldn't have blah, blah, blah, blah. So I don't care. Any, you could argue about it in lots of details. But at the end of the day, you built something, even if you're not planning the, the excitement in whatever happens on stage happens, you still built something to support that happening. Yeah. You have to do it at an elite level, yeah, past 500 people. Yeah. If you want to keep it, you know, because you learn so much going from zero to 500 tickets, right? That's where you, and if you can get up to 500, you know, what was it, a green days manager once told me he said, the road from zero to 500 is like 10 times longer than the road from five to 2000. Yeah. Way, way longer. And then by the time you're at 500, if, and you did learn what you were supposed to learn, which is what you're talking about, like how to design something that is elite, then you will grow. Then it will go from five to 2000 for sure, if it stops growing up 500 something, you got to look at something and go, what are we totally, we need to pick this to the next level. Something stopping us. And there is something about that totally, but you're right. Yeah. There's zero to 500 to the hardest. Yeah. Those are the trenches you're digging. Yeah. So that it takes. Yeah, well, you're talking about stopfulness and you have to combat self esteem. You have to come back. Of course. Fear. I think it's all self esteem driven, but like anxiety and all that stuff, you have to figure out what part of that is my old programming from poverty or I got a lot of that program. It's on at school or whatever. And then what part of it is I'm actually misunderstanding as a bad thing, which might be a good thing. It might be my level of focus. Yeah. My ambition to succeed and do well and grow, right, which is, you know, I have one, a big one of those. Thank God. It's great to hear. Yeah, yeah. But some, you know, some days, some days, some days you hear the voice wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You hear it as something that's saying like you have a lot to be afraid of, you know, and that, you know, it is, for me, it is a conscious choice to wake up every day and say, okay, like, like you're saying, like, am I actually afraid of this or am I just, do I deeply care and I have to be thoughtful of that because my default mode is a poverty mode. Yeah. My default, my default mode is, is, I have a scarcity mindset, scarcity, yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. But, but you know, you know, those people who you meet in your life, who they're like, yeah, man, like, it's all good. Like, don't worry about it. And everything's fine and that they, it's abundance mindset. Yeah. And you want, you know, like attracts like, and, you know, that scarcity mindset of clinging to things and feeling afraid that you're going to lose it, it's like that attracts that. Yeah. And it, but it's like, how do you shift your mindset to abundance mindset when all you know is that I got to, I got to figure out, I'm going to get some cereal this morning. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do I keep the cereal? Right. My fruity pebbles with marshmallows. Yeah. My favorite one. Yeah. Yeah. The off brand. Yeah. I'll tell you how I think I did it with the good coach mentorship, coaching and mentorship. And okay. So, first thing that comes to mind is who I hang out with. Yeah. Man. You're the average of the average. Yeah. Of the group. Absolutely. And I don't care what anyone says. Yeah. You start to look at that. And if you don't, you're not growing up. Yeah. And then it sounds harsh. It does. Because it is harsh. I have to be like, oh man, you're not cutting it anymore. You're not cutting it. Your habits. Don't align. Yeah. Your goals don't align. Your values don't align. What's interesting too is if you set your mind to your goals and you're a goal oriented person, that stuff will fall away naturally. Anyways. Yeah. I always say to like, let's say like, I don't want to say my kids because it feels like they would hate it. They hate it when I like use them as an example because my kids are fucking cool. They're smart. And they're very like edgy kids. They've had interesting lives. Yeah. Sure. So they're pretty mature. Right. And they don't want to hear me talk about like preach anything. But I would say like to a young person, such as my kids, I say, you'll deal with that as long as you can. Right. And then when you can't deal with any more of that person, you won't. And it'll fall away. How much time do you want to give it? If you aren't ready to say, hey, this ain't cutting it. Let them hang around. It's okay. And they'll tell you, you can't handle it. Right. That's the thing too about music and artists and entertainment businesses, we're all just fucking people. So we're all going through the same thing as anyone listening to this. Like, you're going through some relationship stuff or some job stuff or like I could name five topics and that's likely going to cover what any of us could be going through. Yeah. Anyone listening. Right. Because we're all the same. Yeah. If it's a relationship, right? Well, I don't understand why. He's not honest with me. I'm like, well, you'll deal with it until you can. Yeah. And at some point, you're going to wake up and go, I don't want to deal with this anymore. Yeah. And you'll move on. Yeah. And instead of trying to force someone to be the way you want them to be. Yeah. So there's a mindfulness to it where it's like, I just don't know why they don't love me. And I go, well, why do you need them to love you? Well, you can control everything and think about that. That's the question I've learned to ask myself when I can't get what I want from someone like, why can't they love me? Yeah. Why isn't it perfect the way I'm going to be? Okay. Well, why do I need them to love me? Because I want to be loved. Okay. Yeah. Well, do you love yourself? Yeah. Well, if you love yourself, it could be enough. Yeah. To sustain you long enough until you meet someone who loves you. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And you could take that into business. Yeah. Why won't this company sign me or choose me or what do you need them to? Because I want this and I'm like, well, that's not the only option in the world. But it's the one in front of you right now. Right. But if you find your confidence and you really believe in yourself and you can't get there together and I'm like, say, you're at the table trying to make a deal and they won't give you what you want. You can always walk away, right? And then go look for it somewhere else, right? I got to decide if we're going to negotiate first. Right. So let's see where we, let's see where we're both at. Yeah. Can we? Is there even really too far apart? Yeah. Totally. And most of the time, I know I'm dealing with someone who's probably probably going typically, the normal route, which is let me just see how much and you see if I can, and they haven't thought it through. It's what you're mostly dealing with most of the time. Everyone's like, buy as low as possible, sell as high as possible. Very old way of thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of like value, right? Partnership and real partnership and synchronicity and stuff, totally. If you spell it out at the beginning of the deal, this is kind of the style of the deal I'd like to do. And this is where I'm kind of thinking. That's too far from where you're at. Totally cool. Yeah. That's always kind of the approach. Oh, love. And it's very real, it's very honest. Yeah. It's like actually where I'm at. Yeah. And I think beginning, middle and end. I always think beginning, middle and end of deal, right? And I always think if things go sideways at this stage, is there a caveat and is there a lever? But we are all somewhere, however far of a distance we are away from freedom, right? In that capacity. Right. So then I try to measure how far away I am. And then I find myself being closer and closer with each year, if I just keep my eye out because you're looking at it. Because I'm looking at it. And you're talking about it. And that's it. It's not even like a plan or I find myself more and more in line with freedom as I look at it me to and I continue to look up at it It's just painful to look at something because it's maybe not painful It's scary to look at because I don't know about you, but I Learned that you just if you just remain silent about your problems You know, you don't talk about it be like hey, like I'm in credit card debt. I don't know what to do about X Y or Z If you're saying that to people some more especially if you're like Learning how to surround yourself with the right people. Yeah, one of those people is gonna be like hey, come over here sit down Look at this and there I did. Yeah, yeah, I guy. Wait, what did you say? Well, this is what I did look at this out Totally here's the game. Yeah, and then you and if you really are truly if you really do want to get yourself You want to increase the you awareness of that pillar and learn and grow. You'll listen It's just simple. It's called confirmation bias. Oh, what is that? So we have a bias to Find what we're looking for. Oh, so if I believe that life is full of Archain a suffering and hardship totally and people who don't like me and Things don't work out for me. Yeah, and trouble along every like there's a problem everywhere. I go. Yeah, we'll find it You're gonna yeah, you're gonna self-fulfill that obviously it's that simple thing of a look for the red cars Oh, there's red cars everywhere. I see what really look for the blue cars all those blue cars that right? We go through what someone put it as simple to me as in the woods. We're looking for the bears or the berries, right? It's a thin line, right? So we're our bias to believe and it's pretty deep. It's like yeah, it's if I'm a person that I just can't find love and I really truly believe that in my core There's a lot of work in that that you have to do right to get to the bottom of your belief yourself Yeah, but at the simple top level it's like the confirmation will be there every day Yeah, and so if I'm looking for answers, I'll find answers if I'm looking for friends, I'll find friends If I'm looking for opportunities, I'll find them right and as we find them we get confirmed in that bias So it's like I build momentum right and so the beginning of changing your Whatever your bias is is the hardest part. It's the practice. It is the hardest. Well, because it's practice You know if all if all you've known is you're in the woods full of bears or whatever Yeah, that's all you ever known what I think is I think it really takes a I don't want because anyone can do anything right anyone can be an astronaut. Well, you know, that's a little hyperbole But like it can anyone can do anything right if you are if you have enough tenacity But it I think that you said it's like starting to break that confirmation bias is kind of the hardest part What I did is I searched for people because I didn't really have a lot of family right and so I just I like Found people who would be like hey like you are worth something. Yeah, I met this guy He he his name is Stuart and he'll probably listen to this. He's he's started spiritual pain with me He was the first person to ever be like where is Stuart now? Stuart lives in San Francisco He left the band because he didn't want to you know be in a full-time life touring. Yeah, because you know That's the life. It's it's off life tough life But you know, he runs a very successful company now. He's run a bunch of very successful companies And before I met or you know, even before I met him. He's you know built these big companies and and sold you know sold them all off And he was the first person to ever take me aside and be like him in like what you have is called leadership capabilities He was like all the people you just have never assembled People and explained that you were going to be the leader and I I searched for that guy my whole life Yeah, you know what I mean and a good coach totally and now after meeting him And learning that he was Right. Yeah, I am good at leadership now all I do is search for people like that and you know That's all you should search for right all my friends feel like that. Yeah It's something like that. Yeah, all my friends feel something like either a coach or a cheerleader Yeah, I would also throw people that you are now doing that you are I am that you are that for them. I try to define that in every relationship Right, there's only three roles for me. This is just me anyone listening. You don't have to Subscribe. I either go. I'm a coach here. I'm a cheerleader here or I'm a player here right and sometimes there's coach players Yeah, sometimes I'm on the field playing and I'm coaching good job. So so yeah, so I feel that way. Yeah, so I try to Quietly in my head. I always think like what are what am I in this relationship? I'm a cheerleader right just cheering them on right I'm just trying to get him to keep going because they have it. They don't need a coach Necessarily by wife and the truth is is that you're like maybe you're two out of three in every relationship Sure, sure, but maybe you're being coached. You're a player. Maybe you're a coach and a player leader and a player Your cheer this is my life in my mind. I think that way. Yeah, I think like I got to be a coach or a cheerleader or a player Yeah, sometimes I got to be both But I I need to make sure that I'm doing one of three. Yeah, and nothing else right because if I'm just an angry fan Yeah, yeah, my thoughts. You should have done that play. Yeah, a couch fucking. Yeah. Yeah, couch protester I'm no good to the fucking equation. So if I can't participate in a productive way. I just step out Well, I could just go play some video games. Yeah, you know, there's other things to do If I'm gonna if I'm going to be a part of something where I'm like I'm not contributing and being contributed to and We got to be honest with ourselves if he's a better player in this Situation. Yeah, he should run the ball. Yeah, you run the ball. And I'll just cheerly. Yeah, yeah, I'll just be your cheerleader Yeah, there's a thing with that some people can't stop when they say get out of your own way. Yeah It's a little bit that it's where are we getting in our own way because we aren't stopping and going like I should not be rowing the ball on this right Where are you guys at in the music? In the middle of the baby middle of a are you in the middle of an album? I know I mean, I was just yeah Well, we just released the record in november. Oh good Fresh. Yeah, yeah, totally went to Europe with hives Well, that's cool. Yeah, great tour went there immediately after the record came out We took a break for the holidays. Mm-hmm. And Do you celebrate the Christian holiday? Oh, you've never seen him. You've never seen him more Celebratory little elf than me like Christmas. I love christmas. My favorite till I grew up without christmas. I did I did grow up without like really much of Why poor family for you? Yeah, in my parents were just you know busy working on whatever it was that they had me in front of them Dealing with life. Yeah, totally man. Um, you know mine too. I get it I just lucky enough that now I did you have birthdays. I was born on a day and If what did you have birthday parties? I did not have a lot of birthday party. No, no, how's your birthday? I work very hard to celebrate it and put my best foot forward every year. Good and I it's nice Yeah, it took me a long time. My wife helps with that. I find myself to hide a little bit on my birthday I have to actively take steps weirdly sad every year for me. Yeah. Yeah. I feel weird too for sure Like I never got a lot of birthday parties. Maybe ever Yeah, and I always wanted one. That was the thing I needed to and I was younger. Yeah, I had to come to terms with like I got to a place where it was like book birthdays. I don't want to fuck a party Yeah, and I still find myself saying that yeah, but I realized it was like as a kid I wanted like so and so I was having a birthday party They're having a birthday party. They're having a birthday sound. It's awesome And then my wife is like every few years. I'll let her put something together. Yeah, she's very sweet and my kids are sweet And then sometimes I find myself going like I don't want to do anything. I just want to go to work. I wish I want to work. I want to work Yeah, yeah It's weird. Yeah Christmas though. I've allowed myself to we love Christmas. Yeah, I love Christmas My wife again, my wife is someone who has you know put a lot of sweat equity into Michael Bingham. Yeah Because nurtured she saw she saw a lot of potential. Yeah, and oh how long you guys been together 21 years Really 21 years. Yeah, that's great long time 20 years for us this year. Congratulations. We're right on the same. Yeah So you guys 2005. Yeah, something like that. That's great. What's her name? My name is Barbara nice. Yeah, yeah She's a hairstylist cool. She was actually the catalyst us moving down here four years ago She said I think I can do Celebrity hair in LA and I was like Yeah, whatever. Oh, she's a cool hairstylist. Oh, yeah. Yeah, she has she has Hillary. Oh cool she does Hillary and now they're like very she know Matt. She knows Matt. Amazing. Do you know Matt? Me and Matt are supposed to be friends We're on our way to becoming friends. You got to be friends with him. Yeah, yeah, like me and Matt are best friends. Yeah Okay, you guys that's your best way. That's my that's my guy. Yeah, cool and what we figured out and Nicole and Hillary are best friends cool and What we found is actually Me and Hillary are more alike in the in the are where we sit in the world and Matt and Nicole are more cool. I like I've never met him Yeah, but but Barb and Hillary have become very very close. That's nice. I mean Hillary is amazing. Yeah, yeah, so I their family is incredible. Yeah. That first time I met Hillary was at a birthday party and and I looked down in those people way it was Hillary Duff and and I was like, Oh, not who I expected you to be, but yeah. Hello. I know you. Yeah, you know, and then you get past that and, you know, incredible person. Yeah. Immediately. Incredible family. Her and Matt are incredible parents, incredible people. But yes, so Barb is like, I want to move down here. And she's she's always been the catalyst to my growth. Yeah. She's same with Nicole. She's always like, we have to do this thing. And I'm like, why would we do that? I'm I'm comfortable with where I met. We fear change. And she dragged me down to LA. And four years later, I'm like, she's like, say the line. And I'm like, I have experienced lots of growth in my life as much better because of this move to LA. That's right. So you're like, you hated LA. I hated it. Like a job. Yeah. I hated it like a job. And they're all fake. They're all fake. The town's fake. It's actually. But I what my wife taught me. Yeah. Is she from LA? She's actually not that I want to sit here and talk about in the call all day. But yeah. Sorry. I was, but I do. I actually want to talk about what I do. I love our wives. Yeah. She was born in Oakland. Oh, and was there her first, you know, her first like five years respect. And then she was adopted. And she moved down here with her parents. Got it. When Lionel and Brenda got it. And then she grew up in LA. And so LA is home. But she her first few years of her life were in Oakland. She still remembers Oakland. Yeah. Okay. And she was, you know, she came down here at an old enough age where she has like formative memories with, you know, her grandparents and stuff in Oakland. And so she does have like Bay area roots that she she's got real roots there. Yeah. But she grew up in LA. So she loves LA. And she used to tell me because I'd be like, oh, fuck LA everyone's fake. I'm moving. When I first met her, I was like, I'm moving back. He's close. Same. I was like, I'm out of here. Yeah. And she's like, no, like don't, that's bullshit. All that. Everyone's fake bullshit. Yeah. He's like, there's great people here. Oh, the best. There was a moment in my life where I was like, all my success, my idea of myself was completely wrapped up in the success of the band. And I, that was, if I'm being honest, that was a, that was my measurement of myself. Of course. Yeah. And we were like, they had flatlines. Like now if I zoom out and go, yeah, well, there was MP3s, people were getting music offline. They'd stop buying records. Spotify hadn't really didn't develop until 2015, 2016 was when that really took root and became like the standard. Yeah. And then 2018, 2019 was when it really popped off where like you're measuring your monthly listeners and this and that. Yeah. Yeah. But there was no metrics for, for success in music unless you had a hit song or whatever. And we were like 12 years into a career of like having hits and doing this and doing that. And then it was just like flatline. And in my mind, it was over. Yeah. Yeah. And for all that fear that I was running away from. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, well, it happened. Yeah. I'm going to lose it all. That was it for you. And of course. And she's like, it was like, she, we had a real moment. She was like, snap out of it. Yeah. How are you defining yourself? How are you measuring yourself? Because I don't see you as that. I don't, I don't care if you ever do another fucking thing with that. Right. In fact, I hope you don't. Yeah. Yeah. Let's move for you. That you don't fucking move to a farm. Yeah. You want to do like, let's go far away from this wherever you're going to be happy because that's all I care about. Yeah. And but it really bums me out that you would define yourself with that. Yeah. And she was like, you need to go and talk to somebody and you need to figure out. Yeah. Like what you, how, what you want to live for. Yeah. And it was like, holy shit, it was the first time anyone said to me, like, I don't need you to be a success in the world. Yeah. You're good enough. Right. And that was the beginning of like my real, I think, like personal growth. Yeah. And that's what I like, an amazing partner does. Yeah. I mean, you know, they say like, uh, when you hold sand, if you grasp it, it'll all fall out of your hands. Yeah. If you hold it gently, yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's like what you're talking about with career stuff. It's like, you know, it's something starts to change. And you know, it's not like you want it to be. And you're like, well, if I just grab this as tight as I can, I'll, but then a bunch of the sand's going to fall out. And but it doesn't feel like that, right? In the moment, you're just like, you're like, it feels so scary and desperate. Whatever that is, right? You know, any sort of change, you know, I got fired from my, from my job in 2023 because, you know, I had, I had like a real job before I was in music. Good job. Was it? I worked as a project manager at a tech company. Oh, wow. Um, yeah. That I like Photoshop to degree to get. Oh, wow. Yeah. I didn't have a degree. I do not have a degree. You go to college. I did not go to college entry level job moved up. Like, wow, figure it out how to move in the ecosystem. And then in 23, you know, we got, we got signed to a label. We got the other, we put some money into the band. We had a great agent, awesome manager, touring, touring, start building, start moving from zero to five. Yeah. You know, you're meeting me at like seven. Right. You know, right. But you guys are happening. Spiritual cramp is to me like one of the coolest bands out. Let me say this here. Thank you. It's fucking cool. I appreciate that. So cool that I was like, what's he going to be like? Which is cool. Thank you. Trust me. It's a little nurse for me. Standoff. It's just standoff. It's closed off. Yeah. Yeah. That's me. You guys are happening. Oh, I appreciate it. As you could, I just love the music. It's got all the right fucking great. It's like, it's like everything I love about old music, but it's not trying to be old, which is what most bands get wrong when they like call to the past. Like, like, I think I can hear influences without, like, it's not a parody of some, but there's all the stuff I love, like whether it's the clash or this or that. Yeah. There's stuff in there that I'm like, the ingredients is really good. It's like, yeah, if you're eating a meal, it'd be like really all your favorite stuff. That's what it is supposed to be fresh. Yeah. It's really cute. It's like, it's, I really think you guys are really one of those bands that have a really bright, fun future. Thank you. With the kind of music you make. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I feel that way too. Yeah. You know, some days, you know, and then others, I'm like, this is not going to work. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, thank you so much. Yeah, for sure. It's really fun to create something in the image of what you think should be in the world. You know, like what, all those things that you just said about how it's like, you know, we're pulling from, you know, sham 69 and we're pulled, but we're also pulling from block party. I love that reference. And trying to put those two things together and then offer it up in a way that looks, feels, tastes, and smells. Fresh. Yeah. It's such a fun project. Yeah. So it's, it's great to hear that, you know, they, it hits, it hits for you. Yeah. And, you know, nothing happens overnight. No, no, no, no. It doesn't happen overnight. But we just got back from, you know, the, I literally just got home from a 40 day tour yesterday. Oh, wow. As you know, the root span of the world tour. Yeah. It's working. Yeah. I was out there. I saw you feel it. Oh, there's, there's people. You can feel whether it's electric and when it's not. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, it definitely, we were all out there and we were like, if, you know, we were in Toronto and we thought, I bet there'll be more people here next time. Guarantee it. That's what in LA, SF, DC, New York, all of these shows that it really did feel like different. But, you know, one day at a time, right? As our, as our, as our ANR says, who I, I, I'm in love with our ANR label. Are you on? We're on a record label called Bluegrape. Cool. Dave Wrath, who is, he was head of ANR at Roadrunner for like 25 years. Yeah. He started his own label. And, you know, he works very, he and I work very closely together and he always says to me, says, one fan at a time, Mike. And man, he said that when we first started working together. It's very true. And I was like, I was like, nah, that's not how it happened. And three years later, I'm like, man, you were right. This is one fan at a time. But yeah. Oh, yeah. I got fired. 23. I got fired in 23. I'm your tech job, my tech job. And my wife was like, and I was like, what, because you know, I did, we were doing the band part time. Yeah. It was like this cool guy. Yeah. Yeah. Seven inch. And my wife was like, hun, it's time to jump with both feet. It feels like the universe is telling you it's time to jump off this cliff, cannonball, or stop talking about it. Yeah. You shitter get off the pot. Shitter get off the pot. And it has been three years. And I have fucking great. And I'm like, what a good partner. And I open my eyes and I'm like, talking to you, you know, like best friends. Oh, yeah. I have never had a friend closer on this earth than that woman. Where's she from? She's from Petalima. Where's Petalima? It's about 45 minutes north of San Francisco. Oh, cool. Yeah. Bay Area. Yeah. She's, she's Bay Area. Yeah. We see a punk rocker. No. Oh, no, no. She's like, she's, she, she is by proxy. Right. She knows everyone. Right. Yeah. You know, she may with you forever. She's in, she's in the middle of it. But no, she, she, she likes, actually, she's a little bit punk. She loves your band. She's punk adjacent for sure. Yeah. I'm punk adjacent. You're, I would argue that you're, you're punk. At first, at my moments. The first time I ever heard of like the unseen. Yeah. My brother was your brother's shirt. And I remember being like. I love them. Yeah. I love like street punk bands. Yeah. All those bands, the casualties. Yes. All those bands. He knew them all. He would go. Yeah. It was funny. He loved all that. So you're punk. Yeah. Yeah. I love the killers. Oh, cool. I love the killers. Yeah. I, I, I didn't like the killers when, when I heard it. Right. And now, now I'm like, this is what I want my bands to have. To Doran, Doran for you, I just, I was, I was too busy listening to the casualties. Right. You know, you like that real shit. Oh, yeah. I was way too pumped. You're dirty. You're dirty. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and it was uncool. And I couldn't be uncool. Totally. And now I'm like the most uncool guy in the world. I think spiritual cramp is, I would put it on like a lot of my lists, my top lists. I love, it's amazing. And we're cool. And this to me, like this shows a music show. Yeah, yeah. And at the core of the show, like, what, what, when we started to now, I've always just wanted bands to have a place that's substantial to like come and share their music with people because it's just not that many places these days. Yeah. They actually get a good look from music fans and everything's kind of like really quick hit turn and burn press. Yeah. And so with the big platforms, it's not a lot of places you can go to like share your music these days. And so when we started this show, the ultimate goal for me was to have the biggest music show in the world where musicians could come and music fans could get a sense of them. Sure. So a lot of people might be discovering your band like that are listening. So for me, it was like, well, you're one of those bands I would put on like a share with your friends kind of band. I think a lot of people feel that way. That's why you're getting, you're feeling that right now, the energy of that because you're a real share of bands sharing band. We were a bands band for a while. People would always say this sentence to me that I really didn't like. Yeah. Dude, I just wish you guys were bigger and I'm like, yes, I do as well. And it does, it's starting to feel, you're getting bigger, like they're bigger. Yeah. You are bigger. Getting done with that tour. Yeah. I walked in the door and I said to barb, I was like, that was something happening out there. That was a success. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, yeah. You're ready for more of it. You know, I hope so. I hope we can. No, I'm telling you. I hope so. It's good to help. But the bullet's left the gun. Yeah. The ship is sailed. I hope so. Yeah. I'm telling you right now. Yeah. The thing is doing, it's doing what it does, which is again, like it's organic. So yeah, it's like watching a plant grow sometimes. But before you know it, it's a tree. And then before you know it, there's apples on the tree. Yeah. And like the thing grows. I think that you guys have, you make good music as long as you make good music. Yeah. And put it on a good live show. Yeah. We're a good live band. Yeah, you are. That is one thing we've worked really hard on. And bands like you, like people and bands, like bands, like you, you won't, I won't be hard for you guys to book tours and to get opportunities and like it's going to get easier and easier. You'll see because you guys are a cool band. So any bill you guys are on is, is, is, is, is, is an improved bill, I think. Oh, thank you so much. You've made a good name for yourself, like in the sense of like, it's a cool band. The music's good. It looks good on a bill. Right. Right. Like people are like, oh, they know about that. There's no question. Yeah. It's a good band. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know the band Def heaven? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So their guitar player, Carrie is like one of my best friends and he is such a great wealth of knowledge. And you know, we spend so much time talking about this stuff. And he says that building, uh, being in a band is like building a monument of yourself. Yeah. For people to stare at. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's really funny, which is so funny. It's true though. But it, you know, it is. You're, you're, you're building this thing that you're like, look, this is cool, right? And it's my chin. It's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, how does my chin look? What do my chin look? Are, are the glasses right? Well, and, you know, when you're making the music, right, like all I can do is be like, well, what do I think is cool? Like, I think it's all you can do. Joe Strummer's cool. Yeah. And I love the specials and I love Interpol. And how do I take Paul Banks and Joe Strummer and Terry from the specials and make them this thing that is mine. And then, you, you erect the statue, it's like getting to choose your parents. Totally. Yeah. Which is, you know, my dream. Which is my dream. God bless our parents. But, but yeah, and so it's, it's, I mean, that's just like to have you say that, you know, I mean, it's real. It's real. It's real. Yeah. I mean, you know, the work was done. You did the work to get to this place where now I wasn't there three years ago. I wasn't there two years ago. Sure. I probably became really aware of your band the last year, right? With everyone else. Sure. Right? So I'm a pretty good template or like a good test group, like I'm a, I'm a, I'm a consumer in that sense. Totally. And I see it and I go like, oh, that band's coming up. That's when I see it coming when I see a band coming. Sure. Sure. And then I'm like, oh, check their music out. And then I check the music out. They're all the young people and they're cool, like Anna from Alternative Press. Right. The coolest. Yeah. She's got great music taste. That's great taste. Yeah. She's in it. She fucking like music first. She's a real one. She's in it. You know, that's why Alternative Press is cool. Right. Right. It was a cool magazine when I was growing up and then it went, you know, as magazines do, they go through their, their cycles and, and you know, since she took it over, there's a culture there because the person in charge is a music person who only fucking cares about music. Yeah. So she's leaving it. Yeah. That's also why artists like her. Yeah. Because when she shows up, it's cool. She doesn't need to be perfect. She doesn't need to be anything other than real. Yeah. And she's herself. Totally. And so like when she points at a band and goes like, I'm like, I heard of them. Yeah. And then I see Anna's into it. Right. I'm like, oh, this is the shit right here. Yeah. Like those are good signs, right? You know, and I've been around long enough to know those kinds of things. Yeah. But like the trajectory is like more like it's a lock as long as you guys keep showing up. It's a lock. It's a lock then. It's a lock. I appreciate that. But as long as you show cool, they hear you say that. As long as you show up. Yeah. Yeah. I'll show up. And you do work. Yeah. And you don't like blow your own thing up. I'm excited for you guys. I think you guys are really such a great band. I am enjoying it. Good. I got home from a tourier yesterday and I was hanging out with my wife and I was like, we play this really beautiful show. Have you ever played the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco? Yes. You know that room. Yeah. We're hanging out with friends. Every person in the room. The living room. The living room. We all had our families in their reserved seats and every person in the living room. Yeah. Right. And it's most thoughtful form where they were like, whoa, like when did you become that? We got to treat them all so well. We had a family green room and you know that it was just this gorgeous moment one night. And I got home yesterday and I was with my wife and I was like, I just we were sitting there. I was playing video games and we're hanging out on the couch all day and you know the sun is shining and we're we're we're calling the night and say if it's going and even the wonderful Los Angeles show that we played the day after and and I was just overwhelmed with joy. That's great. This is the problems I begged God for. Yes. Four years ago. Yeah. It was like, dude, please just like even make it so that we could play like a 300 cap room. So yeah, I am trying to enjoy it. Gratitude is the quickest pathway to true happiness. Yeah. Are you a gratitude list guy? You know what? I probably am in the like actual, I am a gratitude guy, but it's been a such a practice that it's now just a state of being. And so like every morning and every night, I always have at least one moment where I look up or I look out and I see I zoom out and it might be I'm like, usually I'm in my driveway or I'm out in the back area of our house, I usually like in the morning when I have coffee. So I'm lucky me and my wife get to have most mornings, we get to have coffee together and just like have like an hour, maybe, maybe less, but best hour of the day and we are together. Yep. And I have a real, a silent moment of gratitude. And I usually will say in my head out loud, thank you for this and this and this and maybe I'm talking to God or I don't know. And then at night I do the same thing. I take my dogs out every night before bedtime for them to, you know, go to the bathroom. And that's like my duty every night as I take the dogs out and I like put them to bed They're like our kids and I'm telling my love them. I love you. You're such good boys Yeah, you guys look at you. You're gonna protect the house tonight like that's every night their German efforts Are you got German? They're really sweet. They're like bears They're like kitty bears and every night I take them out like all right guys go to the bathroom They go out and then they're like Running around sniffing and whatever in the yard and they're peeing and I like look up and I like I say thank you for like a few things you're like how I thank you all of this. Yeah, and I'm like or if it's like today This happened or I got this or my my kid was blah blah blah whatever it could be like I could zoom all the way out And go thank you for this. Yeah, or I could zoom in and be like thank you today The kid or the wife or some work snooze or whatever sure and When I started to do it for things that we're not good news Mm-hmm. It got really interesting But now I started throwing in bad news. Yeah, what could be perceived as bad news Yeah, which I kind of eliminated good or bad. Yeah, and just said Could be good could be bad. I don't know. Yeah, we don't know. Yeah, we'll find out later I still try to practice it on tour and I have it You got it on tour. I got it on tour. Let me bro I'm like I struggle with routine on tour when's the next record? We are gonna go and start writing in like a week. Oh wow. Yeah, yeah Oh, you're going quick. We gotta keep them. Do it. We gotta keep going. Yeah, we're gonna do we're gonna I think we're gonna tour you know a few times the rest of the year still kind of TVD what that's gonna look like We may do we may do one thing may do another thing But in the meantime, I think we basically have the whole summer off sends a couple festivals take advantage of it So I think we're just gonna try to write the new record and get that out early 27 Yeah, you guys are on one right you should keep making music we can't So you're in it. Yeah, it's fucking great. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Thanks. I you know one day at a time, right? Yeah, it's like yes Michael Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, it's great. I appreciate it Thank you for watching artist friendly if you like this episode Please make sure you hit the like button you follow the channel and Please share it with your friends. We appreciate the support. That is why this show exists because you listen to it Thank you guys. We'll see you next time