Mica Scalin

Real quick, I want to share some news about an exciting event coming up in October. Creative Sprint. Inspired by my own year long, Scullidae Project, my company, another limited rebellion, has been hosting this fun, free, 30-day challenge each fall to get everyone excited about the benefits of creative practice. So how does this work? Sign up now at creative sprint dot co and starting on October 1st, we will email you a creative prompt each morning for 30 days. You're invited to interpret the prompt however you like and make something inspired by it. Then, share your creations. It's that simple. You'll also get access to our private LinkedIn community where you can get inspired by fellow sprinters from across the globe. So head on over to creative sprint dot co now to get signed up and discover how a small daily act of creativity can lead to amazing inspiration and transformation in your life and work. Welcome to episode 11 of 4 Round Background with me Noah Scalin. I'm an artist, author and corporate creativity consultant and today I'm interviewing my sister and business partner Micah Scalin. Micah is an innovator in the use of art and media for community engagement and creative development. She was among the first producers hired by NBC Universal Digital Studios. She launched social media strategy at Showtime Networks and she consulted on CBS Interactive Marketing. She has produced documentary films, art exhibitions and cultural events including being one of the humans behind Dogumenta. America's first art show for dogs. She's also co-author with me of the book Creative Sprint, 630 Day Challenges to Jump Start Your Creativity and she is the managing partner of our art and innovation consultancy, another limited rebellion. In this hour long conversation we discuss creative activism, pioneering digital media, strategizing a career plan and more. I couldn't have made this podcast without the support and encouragement of my Patreon supporters. The regular writing and reflection I do for my Patreon page has me thinking deeper about the issues that artists have to contend with. I've been talking with other working artists to get their perspective and once I started having these conversations I realized that other people could benefit from them as well. If you enjoyed this podcast please leave a comment and let me know what resonates with you and give it a thumbs up or a 5 star review wherever you listen to it. And of course if you're not already a Patreon supporter I hope you'll check it out at patreon.com/noescalean. For as little as $2 a month you can get access to my studio and practice including content available nowhere else. So this is an exciting podcast for me and something different because today in my studio I have my sister Micah who is also my business partner. Say hello Micah. Hello Micah. We understand this is taking us back to childhood by having this interview. And in the background you may hear Kelsey who is the person who edits these episodes so Kelsey you're going to be listening to yourself when you do this. Say hello Kelsey. Hello. So Micah thanks for coming on my podcast. Yeah thanks for having me I'm very excited to be honored to be invited. It was a tough call. I had a lot of options and I was like I don't know but you made the cut. So you know the premise of the podcast for me is always about sort of professional jealousy ultimately. Oh that's a doozy isn't it? You know because it comes from this idea of seeing other people's success and going how did they get that and rather than who we do have next season just call it how did they get that I think that would be a good podcast. There's one called how they how they built. No I think the idea of just a podcast is just like professional jealousy in different industries. Just be like who are your jealous about why and like what do you do to like like let's figure it out. Well so we do get what you know it's it's it's channeling that feeling of how did they get that why did they have that I want that to well why don't I just ask people and then find out and and every time I've turned it around I've gotten a really great result from that. And so especially because I'm relatively new to being sort of thinking myself as a professional artist and not just sort of a dabbler artist I've been trying to find this path and using other people's successes as a way to do that. And of course discovering that everyone's path is no surprise unique and it's impossible to create you know recreate anyone else's journey. Spac exactly but there's a lot of lessons to be discovered. So I want to sort of take you on that journey even though we know each other very well and work together there is some stuff I want to talk about from your sort of creative journey because you kind of had you are on the path I want to be on and I'm currently on but you did it right out of college and sort of was more you were more focused on that in the way that I wasn't and now I'm kind of trying to do it and you've already done it and left that world. So that that's sort of the piece I think would be really interesting to dive into and then of course whatever else you want to talk about but so people know it on this podcast of unless it is the first time you're listening to it that our parents are artists so we grew up in an art household our parents are teachers art teachers we grew up with that so we did not have an experience of that a lot of people may have of of of being questioning whether they were creative or whether they are an artist you know could put that name and title them themselves we always add access to materials we could show our work very early on like you know parents would do shows and we get invited to be parts of show I mean it was very in that way it was a very easy world to be in and they didn't question us choosing to study creative fine art stuff in school I mean why would they right they they teach it so they were encouraging of that so we're super lucky but we've had some different journeys in terms of once we sort of went on those paths I think it's interesting that certainly what I one thing I would say about from our background that was a little bit misleading or just very different and sort of changed maybe maybe affected our thinking about this we had to catch up or think about things differently but we did go up in a sort of like bohemian if you will situation that was also extremely stable at the same time because our father was a teacher at the university so we had a very tenured full time yeah so that kind of like having growing up around all this art and this sort of free spirit free thinking kind of mindset about art and creativity and being exposed to so much cool art and artists and kind of lifestyles but ultimately was extremely stable and you know parents were actually working artists and the idea you could be a working artist just that idea about and you know we were supposed to so many artists working artists that weren't like celebrated or you know wildly famous or whatever but just the idea like I think going around all these working artists is just a different kind of like mindset and exposure but also the the artwork wasn't the financial sustainability like didn't provide financial sustainability right and that's something I say to the boys you know for me is that and I mean we didn't have to think about art as a profession in that way right although I always I knew I wanted to be an artist pretty early and it's funny because I was somebody who was like I want to do creative work but I don't see art as a viable career path based on our parents like going oh they they make a living doing other stuff so artists don't make a living making art interesting and so I thought I needed to do something else and that's why I'm not doing theater by way of wanting to do filming and doing theater it's kind of what I thought I was doing with photography because I thought I was doing like a practical practical to make it also yeah I think we picked so we picked things where there was a perfect jobs yeah versus paintings dark room photography it was a job for exactly for you and theater which is like this right I love that we were being so sensible yeah this is our practicality we're so practical on that is funny but uh yeah I'm trying to think about that I knew I wanted to do art but I also knew that I didn't want to be a teacher and that's only a lie and the irony here is both of us just had a conversation we're both teaching but I'm teaching as much as I ever want to do I mean but I ended up teaching I'm teaching for like 15 years or more now 16 years yeah you've but you are teaching I don't know but it's interesting because neither of us thought our parents were teachers not as long to be teachers as a job of course not because that's we just heard how terrible it was not well not this no another teaching I think are actually our parents are so I even now I just know how like excited our parents get to talk about like you know begin on a dare table and hearing our parents talk about students or projects there's great teachers yeah excitement and energy around that they always had on like you know but the system was brutal constantly complaining about like administration and then of course going to an institution being like oh yeah the administration below is and this is not fun and I taught a little bit of a program right after college and I taught in college actually well listen let's talk about it and I was already frustrated by administration I was like ugh remember I wanted to not do this yeah so let's talk about so you know because we both had this exposure and felt creative and wanted to make art and some capacity and you were like I want to be an artist you went to well you went to two schools for College it didn't go to VCU not and I don't do that I know whatever it's fine We lived in that I tell you we're definitely lived in that school as a child I would go there for another no we needed that you need space yeah so you were so first you went to you started Had it did a general I did a five-year plan now when I like when I talk about now I click it was intentional I was tell people on why didn't academic year there you go which worked out that way basically I went to the University of Pittsburgh Because I really don't want to go to college at all. I tried to not go that was not gonna fly with our parents And then I just like a friend was going there and I was like cool I can room with her out to live with a stranger, which was like I just don't want to do that and Pittsburgh was urban And I wanted to be somewhere urban I couldn't imagine being on campus I would visit these campuses and I would just cry Yeah, so So I did an academic year and then I went to the cork or three months and I knew that I couldn't spend four years in classrooms Only articulating myself in essays. It was just a writing and I'm not failing in math class. I was like this is a nightmare way to learn it was really about learning honestly And I knew that I'm the kind of person like I need to be able to use whatever Coming from the high school event to where I actually was allowed to do any of my assignments as video projects But like a freedom of like being able to express myself and And learn use use any sensory tool use any tool. I want to learn stuff and Our high school let us do that Like if I wanted to turn into photo essay as long as it fulfilled the requirements of this I meant like teachers refine with that, you know Yeah, we have to be complete and utter freedom. I knew I needed that kind of I mean whatever kind of I also think it's the kind of Sometimes I don't know other people have it So I definitely think I have some kind of cognitive we all cognitive processing differences. Let's say they weren't identified back then Yeah, but also we should call them like I actually I like it different. We're all different. We all learn differently. We think some of those also make us Exceptional other ways because we just sort of rely on other things that were Make us, you know, sort of why not that you develop other toolkits that can make you really I think that think about that a lot for myself So but you so you did this academic year and then you were like all right. I'm gonna go to I can't do this So just sadly now defoned yeah, I applied to two I went I ended up at the quirk run just because I was blown away by the fact that you would go through this Well, that's I think that's what it was. I went into the quirk ran and I fell in love basically I like went in their hemisphere at that time the senior thesis shows for undergrad were in this beautiful Gallery called it was called the hemisygo and it was historically I think they actually used to have art classes in there and then at this time you would have your the thesis shows It would be in it. It was this beautiful like ridiculous museum with these columns this bozards building right across from the white house And you'd walk in and then you go upstairs and balcony and there's this beautiful half circular gallery the students this huge curving wall And there'd be like you know eight six or eight students would have their work up there and I was I think actually when I went to visit might have been when um What's her face Tara? Donovan? Tara Donovan's show was up she was right before me or maybe she was a senior I was a freshman And I think it was hard to these I think of these to show us up Anyway, I was just blown away and I was like I'm going to school because The very least if I can make it through I'm going to have my first show will be in the museum and then I'll be I'll be exhibiting the museum. I was like and I want to show museums This is what I want to do like done. Yeah, and this is like my ticket there because I'll How what about our way to start your you know art career than to be showing in the museum So so you enjoyed your experience at the courtroom? It was perfect for me. It was really small What was the learnings you got that you still use now? That's a glorious experience. It was a it was a conservatory and you know a fine art conservatory program There was especially since I did an academic year basically which they accepted all of my academic credits So they told me but they were like you have to start over but you don't have to do any air act Well, we'll take all your academic credits You you can take whatever you want academically, but you don't have to You don't have to take anything and the cork didn't have a lot of academics had some requirements Whatever to be accredited But that meant I just just got to do fine arts for four years That's it. That's it. Which I did not and like my first the first and second my first and second year were actually quite organized The first year of foundations the cork and was really rigorous really strong And in fact kids would go to that cork and program and then they go to develop a portfolio and they'd go from there to other schools Like more famous schools So it was actually kind of known for that like foundations program being super rigorous all kids at the same thing You did all the same assignments. It was like that and you studied photography specifically And then I went to photo program because the photo program had another rig like basically the fine art program You did that one rigorous year and that was three years of like basically kind of grads Well, you just did your own thing for three years. There was no that's it. Yeah, because your final exhibition was very much This is show in a way that like I wouldn't imagine the photo had it it was meant going You've no another program as rigorous for another second year where I got like a whole year of like very very rigorous like assignments It was very specific learning the history of photography I love like science and art and a connection between science and art has always been interesting to me That sort of innovation interest So yeah, I did photography and then the the next year two years were developing your thesis show Yeah, that's amazing. It's so fun Cheers and and what's cool about it was like when I think about now like the value of that time spent in a conservative environment I mean, so students studying anything else or teachers teaching anything else So you don't have to worry about anybody like you didn't have to verify or qualify or justify why you were studying art Like to just the relief for four years and not have to you know, we're all there to do that That was valuable important and you never have to tell anybody yeah, like even when I would come back to visit You know meet some people somewhere and be like oh Young lady, what are you studying or something of that? Why would you do that? How are you going to make a living all that kind of stuff like just Just Maybe it would have been good to have to think about it, but there's something But it was a sort of a lovely Yeah, but like yeah, I think any tribal place to develop a voice and a point of view and like I think that's like That's I think I think there's just something really important about a Conservatory environment. Maybe it's not for everybody, but I do think those Environments are amazing. I mean, I think there's something to be said for like there should be more professional development and some come I have a strap. I have an idea for what should What you should have to do actually in a conservatory program. I think you should have to get a minor in either Like an entrepreneurship or teaching like a minor. Yeah, either trained like I mean you go on a teaching track Or you get like a sort of entrepreneurship business kind of track like how to run what actually run a business Not like how to make a business card and like but like literally what is the business? What is the business? We did we did like make your resume To your point right is that we talk about this all the time that like arts education is woefully lacking in professional skills development Around the fact that most artists are gonna have to either be an entrepreneur Or you're gonna have to find some other gig like teaching as your career So you can pick a track teaching or entrepreneurship get one of those like a minor and then I don't know if that would make sense But yeah, I don't like I didn't even understand that I mean I had some ideas about how art world work and I thought I could kind of like But you didn't necessarily get a practical education around the world. Definitely things I didn't understand about like how yeah Like what how gallows you've worked or how you know actual practicality about how this works and yeah, I mean I was yeah That's common but I was surrounded but I will say in the environment that I was in that was surrounded entirely by all of our teachers You know all the teachers or yes, they're teachers, but they are they're all working artists and um, I guess they just assumed you'd teach I don't know But I did kind of constantly got this continued Like growing up with that but I kind of got to continue for another whatever four years just getting that input Oh, we had I mean because I was in a museum too. I just was constantly getting we had all these guests artists all the time come in like tons of people came at I talked to us all the time a big value That is right because you got professional That was the professional thought, really like when I was in and while you I was in New York City Which and I was working theater which meant I went to see Broadway shows because my teachers were designing Broadway shows So that direct experience and exposure is really the value yeah Unmany levels are down so you felt like your education was worthwhile though You left with skills that you thought were valuable even if they weren't the necessarily the business skills I just want to be an artist and do art and think about art that's all I wanted I didn't really care and then So it was ideal I didn't think more about like why then I really didn't have big I didn't really have a long term yeah, I was like I'm gonna be artists do residencies I've got point two also got my head around a little bit of that like sort of glamour Calamers but as a very unglamers, but in my mind probably like yeah I'm just gonna get these grants and residencies like magically somehow. It's all gonna work out. It's all gonna work out and there's these things So why did you choose not just go to grad school for art? Very I got in some grad schools. It was I got the price tag Yeah, and I was like oh no, and I also was like well, I don't want to And at that point I think our parents were like will pay for college, but after no they weren't paying for that But there's no there was so there's no um and I got we both got scholarships and undergrad as well Um, there was no scholarship opportunities for an MFA program. So nobody offered any. No, no, no, no, no, it's just a cash cap They just want to take your $100,000 that you never can pay back um So they it was very very expensive price tag all the schools I applied to because I was of course I was like well What is the hot where are people going? I literally looked at who was in the Whitney by annual on what schools they had gone to I was very strategic about like because I was like this is not this is strategy because it's clearly not the quality of the work It's like who do you know and where did you go to so I was like all right? Well if it's a game like Let's play the game like it's not really about the quality of my work per se I mean everybody makes the work They think it's good and as long as it's can is almost your participating in this contemporary dialogue in the art world That was that was very important to Sort of being an artist at that in that um sphere that I was interested in So yeah, I was like okay, what are the schools of people went to right now that are like that people are getting into galleries And I used to go up to New York and see all the MFA shows and I would go and I would see all the um Yeah, like the new artist emerging artists shows and see read their resumes and so I applied a bunch It was LA was the time that was what was happening right then so I applied a bunch of those schools got into some of them got way less of another's And then yeah, so I priced back and I was like yeah Why don't I see if I can support myself as an artist for three years and then come back to this idea. - So how did you support your self as an artist for this? - Well, I worked in a dark room printing photographs of rich people's kids in a basement in Washington, DC for a couple years, ooh. And so I was working for an entrepreneur, someone who kind of fell into their situation, but was wildly successful actually using photography. - So in your medium and learning? - Yeah, using my, you definitely using what I learned in school and yeah, but also this sort of learning about, or observing being a part of a small business, actually, which I didn't realize I was learning about. - So where did you go next from there? - Then I went to New York. - And what was your first job? - And I basically, it's an opportunity to either teach art at a middle, I got offered a job teaching art at a middle school, like a private middle school. - Remember that? - Yeah, I interviewed, it was like, you can be hired here to teach this private middle school in Washington, DC. Or move to an apartment in New York. That was cheaper than where I was even living in DC. And I was like, well, - So are you job waiting in New York? Or are you just studying? - No, just in apartment. And I was like, well, but I was like, - Is it an apartment? - But I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, but I was like, honestly, and I wasn't really set on New York, 'cause you would live there and-- - I had only left, maybe. - I wanted to live there, but then you live there and it was kind of like, oh, every time we go to New York, now we just go grocery shopping, so around the apartment, it's not fun. New York is expensive, no one is depressed, like forget that place. Whatever, I just hadn't got my, I had lost my, but then I think because I've been sort of really thinking about like art world more and more, it was realizing like, yeah, probably New York makes sense. But you know, you get stuck in smaller cities and it can be very hard to get out. But yeah, this apartment came up and this job came up and I was like, well, on the one hand, and then I was like, well, I can be a middle school art. I can fall back. I mean, I'm eligible to be a middle school arguably. Like, I could probably apply and be a middle school art teacher anytime in my life in the future. Like, forever. I'll be qualified to be a middle school art teacher. I'm not gonna become less qualified to be a middle school art teacher. But like an apartment in New York, in these village for that price, doesn't come up very often. That's true. So similarly, I was like, well, let me just like, let's just go and see. So, and then, so you know, what was your first? I was a babysitter and this is a nanny. So you were a little, like, my first real job there, well, my first real job there that like, was to put me on the path of what I wanted to do was, and I was interested specifically, I had a specific reason for going to New York, which was I was very, very interested in new media and I was very interested in, like, I mean, coming out of photography, I was, I always been interested in film, but I also did photography because it was cheaper. I thought film would be too expensive. I was like, I can't afford film. I did theater because film wasn't available in Richmond. You know, I was like, I wanted to do documentary film and then photography just seemed like a more efficient way to study a similar idea. Yeah. I worked out great. But I was still interested in documentary and on fiction and I was interested in new media because I had gotten involved in direct action activism in Washington, DC. My last couple years there were, was like, Bush to election. Bush won too. So terrible. No, it was Bush won election. That's what it was. It was '99, 2000. Yeah, '99, 2000. So '90, 2000 was a ton. It was also the WTO IMF era of demonstrations. And it was Y2K. And it was Y2K. It was really, really nuts. And I was in DC and-- For you young people don't know. We thought the world was going to be-- It was 9/11. And all these crazy things happen. But I got very involved in direct action and activism in this DC. And one of the things that impressed me tremendously was the use of digital media in terms of how protests were being organized, like on the fly, using people's pages. And cell phones were brand new. Not everybody had them, but we were in the walkie talkies. And sort of being able to mobilize human beings physically in space. I was amazing. I mean, I was at some protests that were-- I mean, I can't even imagine. Like, I should pull those photos out. So bizarre, because here's this thing. People were out taking pictures. We would go online every day to look at the Indie Media. So a lot of people-- I don't know about Indie Media. Indie Media. Yeah. Became obsessed with Indie Media, because that was how you would find out what was going on, because it was a total media blackout. Like, nothing on the news. You'd be in the streets with 100,000 people. And there would be nothing in the news. This is-- This is so-- This is pre-social media. Yeah. So this is-- It was such a crazy thing. So my mind was like blown. I also actually-- If made you feel crazy, you actually felt like you were-- we were all like, this is so crazy. And I can't create that time, was. So using our-- working with a lot of other creatives, a lot of people came from Seattle. We're involved in helping organize in DC. And Philadelphia was really fun and creative and exciting, using all of our creative skills to be in the streets. And do political stuff, and just kind of-- I also wanted to-- also one of the reasons why I wanted to go to DC anyway. DC appealed to me in addition to the Corcoran. And it's so funny, because it's like the activism, and then it's like polished like bougie art world. But those things are-- They do go together. They do. But those were the things I was enchanted by. I was like, yeah. DC, punk rock, frugazi, and-- So I want to-- Dancing museums. I mean, I've seen about this timeline. But I guess I want to think about your sort of art journey, because you-- So you ended up working for a documentary filmmaker. Was that the first full-time job in New York? Yeah, yeah. That was my first-- So you worked for a documentary filmmaker, and you actually produced documents? I ended up as an associate producer on two different documentary features. So sort of your art path continued in the vein, but it was like maybe-- because he was also doing commercial films. Yeah, so again, I got the opportunity to see how things got made, like how these products-- And how people were creative make a living, right? And I was-- The key to his work. But what was really impressive was how he-- he ran this small company. And I was really impressed with how he knew how many commercials that he needed to do-- how much commercial work he needed to do to balance out and produce his own films. So the documentaries were self-initiated. He wasn't hired to produce documentaries. He was hired to produce documentary style, real people, commercials, TV commercials, often, or things for companies inside companies, things like that. SC Johnson, or whatever. Some of these big corporate things. But he would make sure that work as the move to fund his other work. Yeah, and I was really impressed. He kept it really-- he was moneyed as well, but he also kept it really kind of-- he knew what he needed to do. He was like, OK, four commercials is like almost-- is on the low end. But if I make eight commercials, then we have time to do the films. So somewhere between four and eight commercials a year was his sweet spot to support the production of independent production of documentaries. And then it also gave me window into the budgets to realizing one commercial budget could be the same-- a single commercial budget could be the same as a whole movie, independent movie. And I was learning a little bit about the money of things, looking at the cost. At the same time that you were doing these jobs to make a living, were you continuing on a path of, like, I want to be an artist and somehow make a living being an artist? Was that still your journey at that point? Or what change? Yeah. I don't know. I think some of them-- I definitely some of my perspectives changed-- you talk about professional jealousy. I definitely was really enamored of some of this art world kind of stuff. I told you that obsession of literally reading people's resumes to see where they had gone to school or what things they'd done. And I think in New York, I started to actually know a lot of people that were in that situation. So my friends went to some great-- they were going to Columbia. They were going to BCU. They were going to different grad schools, Hunter, whatever was circulating in that world, meeting these people. And they were sort of like, meh, you're already in New York. Don't go to grad school, forget. They were like, this isn't worth it. They were sort of down grad school. I also knew I didn't want to be a teacher. So they were like, this really, if you want to be a teacher, it's very expensive. They basically sort of valedictive. So the art has stopped looking appealing. Because you also showed work. I think that's-- There is, yeah. And you-- Yeah. And I wanted to-- Yeah, it's a really cool-- You know, it gets vision here. We had like a huge installation. Oh, yeah. I was pursuing being a-- I also-- after I did that big show here-- I mean, I had a solo show. I was curated in emerging art shows. I did what I could possibly do in DC and Richmond basically. And I went to New York thinking that I would go to grad school and grad school be the ticket to kind of showing in this gallery world. Which it is actually really kind of how close that world really is, honestly. But that world became a little less appealing to me. I stopped being like, oh, you know, like, I'll be showing these galleries. I'm not having the conversations I want to have in the galleries. I'm having the conversations in this street with activists. Or I'm just going to make some art to like, when the walls of people can stand in front of it with little plastic cups and wine. Like, that's boring. You know, like-- Right. It wasn't what you wanted to make art. It was more about like a conversation. And it was intellectual stimulation for me. And it's how I think it helps me understand the world, making the art. Yeah. So that point, you're path diverged because you were sort of like, art's going to be about the sort of personal journey of like-- Of course. I think of the night job really into the sort of-- No, I just-- I-- I still know I was still pretty-- because I was like, I was very in a new media art. And so I also knew that that world of new media art people were all in New York. And they're also very academic-y as well. So I was still like thinking about that stuff. And I was hanging around people and meeting people-- And you're working in creative industries. Working in creative industries. But I also like-- I think that at that point, though, my work in creative industries, once I was in media, it was definitely influencing my fine art in a way that I liked. Like, it was good. Like, the job and the-- Were you striking a balance at that point? Or did you feel like you were between those like the working and the creating and-- When I was at-- So my job's always like when I worked in the dark room, I was able to use her dark room to print all of my work. Yeah. My job is in my art, I think, always been very, very entertained. And when you're working dark and journey, filmmaker, you were actually participating in the creation of those-- Because painting and that, learning about all that stuff. And then making your-- And then also getting involved in video blogging and that online video. And we should-- They will do it on the job there. And that moment. So here's what-- again, to give people a context of time, you putting video on the internet was a huge deal and it was very difficult. I thought I couldn't do it because I was stupid. And it turns out it was actually not really hard. - I think we're hard to do, yeah. - Pre-YouTube, which hasn't been around that long, but pre-YouTube, it was very, very hard to put video on the internet. And it was very small and very technical. And there was this sort of crowd that you ended up being part of that was figuring this couch. - I was looking for videos on the internet, which is like so minimal. And there was a few, so some of the people that were, well, again, activist community, I was sort of looking for that, trying to find that, I was trying to find video of what happened. - Interesting. - Like, where is it? And we were all be filming, and we'd be in the streets like everyone, there's a lot of, it's so funny. I feel like, I don't know where it is. I've seen a little bit here and there, but I'm like, where's all those videos and pictures that people were taking in the streets? I saw, like everyone was using their cameras to document stuff, but we didn't have the distribution system to share it. - And this is free iPhone. I mean, to be really clear, there was, you couldn't press a button on your phone and have it be somewhere. - So we were creating the, we had the digital, we had the ability to create, like, it was not very much. We had the ability to create it, mostly still physical media, I guess. But we didn't have the, so yeah, we just got really, and I also wanted to share with my friend who was in grad school in LA, I wanted to share, we used to share, and I just wanted to share, and have these conversations. So yeah, and being very part of a small group of people. - Pioneers really. - Partially, like art, I think it was a mix of artists and activists that were sort of trying to figure, and I was both artists and activists, and many of these people were, and that sort of borderline, but with the idea, like, putting video on the internet, had something meaningful and important, and so you're part of this sort of pioneer in group of people who were figuring out how to do that, and as part of that creating art that was being put online, 'cause the video, the stuff that was being created was very experimental. - Yeah, I was really happy. - There were no tropes that people were emulating at that point. Like, a lot of the tropes, actually, that exist now were based on things that were done then. Like, you look at some of those early people, they set up the format that you know now, as being like, how to do a video on the internet. - And that was actually part of the, there was a lot of talking, that was part of the conversation. We were on this like Yahoo group, people, this is so nerdy, they were like Yahoo group, some people know it, stay there. - They just shut down the Yahoo groups. - Ah, that famous, I should have like, I think I had that conversation archived. This is so boring. Anyway, but yeah, it was like, but again, I was looking for those interesting conversations about like media and like, how it affects people, and like, conceptually, and like, I love like, philosophy, and I love history and like, how the stuff, like, how perception and perception and science, and so we're not these conversations about it through art, and we were actually, what kind of, for a minute, having that in this group, we were like, what should video on the internet be? Like, what can it be? Like, what kind of conversations, we were talking about database cinema, that was one of the discussions. Like, will it be something where you can sort of tag and archive all these moments, and then access them, random access. Like, I was so exciting for me. A lot of my undergraduate work was kind of about this about like archiving and accessing, and I was so excited to be able to talk to people about this. Like, should it be, you know, personal diary, should it be just capturing real life as it is, or should it be, you know, like it was so fun. Yeah, original filmmaking. - Yeah, right. It was like, it really was. We were like, what, this is a new space. It should be something new. Having this fight to fight, you know, people are fighting about it. It's so great. It was like really fun. - But to put the pieces together for people. - And making art. - 'Cause here's what's interesting, right? - Like what, so have this interest. You find this group of people, you do this practice, but then that turns into job opportunity for you because you developed a set of skills that then became very valuable. - Also intentionally though, 'cause I was like, man, I was doing all this stuff on this Yahoo group. I would get, also, at that point, already YouTube, and people, we had a lot of lurkers in that group that were actually techy startup people that became some of the big techs video. - Literally, yeah, like YouTube, Vimeo. - Oh, those guys were in the YouTube MVO. - We're in that group. - Actually, we remember like, hey, these dudes from some kind of company, they're starting, want some advice, like literally coming into our little user group and getting advice, and then like basically using you. - No, no, no, no, no, no. - Come to our thing, we're all about community, and we're all about creators. - And we're being Jacob Lovewood, a lot of ex-house, you were there. - Yeah. - When he presented Vimeo in its original orientation, which was actually just like a mashup of videos about like relationships he had. I don't know, it was a very bizarre. Do you remember that? He was loaded. They'd already made a shit ton of money on-- - You can curse, it's fine. - T-shirts, I don't talk about that. But it started to really over, I was in New York so that whole media stuff started overlapping with the media industry. It was very weird, but-- - So you ended up thinking-- - Right away I was like, I got, I knew I was done with the film company. I wanted to do my own thing in some way. I knew I wanted to be, I had this idea about what could be done with online video. I sort of had figured out like, oh my God, I see the possibility, I know what can happen. This, I've had enough of these people come in, these, you know, ask me my opinion, I've been going to these sort of like meetups, people are asking me stuff like, I should be, somebody should give me a job doing this. I was like, wait a minute, like, people are asking me those questions, they want to pick my brain, I don't know, like I know stuff, I know some things, I know some people don't know, I just should be able to turn this into a job, like a real job. And I learned at the film company that I wanted to be on the executive producer side of the table very quickly. There's also something I learned during theater, after doing my theater, being on the auditioning side. I was like, why am I on this side of the table? That side of the table is better, that's where you want to be. Not that I didn't like performing, but I was like, that's the place to be. And the same thing happened to me in the film. But the performers, and I learned this in theater school as well, right, there's a billion of them and way fewer people on the other side of the table. Like there's more jobs on the other side of the table, and your power control. Yeah. And you're not begging for jobs and one of a million people. So yeah, when I was at the film company, I sort of, again, that mindset, again, about being like, I could be on the other side of this table. Like, we would pitch, we'd get these film ideas and we'd pitch and like, you know, he's hustling this whole hustle of this sort of like, yeah, the hustling, struggling art. I think as living in New York, that became less and less appealing. I mean, like, I don't want to be this-- The people who he men struggle. And also realizing a lot of these bohemian struggling artists, there are a lot of them come from money. So it's like, you know, it's not appealing when you're someone who doesn't actually come from money. There's no fallback cushion for me. Pretending to be poor. It's not appealing when you're actually-- I was like, oh, wait a minute. Why is people do this? They-- right, it's like that's-- it wasn't at the time. Now it's cool to be rich, so you don't pretend the ear poor. But at the time, you pretended that you were poor, because that's cool and bohemian. And then I was caught up in that realizing, like, I didn't understand. I'm really, really poor. I really actually have no-- I don't have anything to fall back on. And I don't-- yes, I have-- I just-- I don't. So that realizing that people had more opportunity-- yeah, it just became less and less appealing, that sort of life. And realizing that's sort of what was on offer for artists. So then I saw that. I got-- I want to be on the other side of that table. That's kind of fun. And producing that film, and we pitched to this-- oh, we had to pitch the film that we produced to Robert Greenblatt, who at the time was at Showtime. And he's now the head of-- he just moved from the head of-- he was the head of NBC. Now he's the head of all media for all over the world. Whatever. But he's like a real hot shot, if you know TV. X-Files. Yeah. He was the first he was at Fox, and he was at Showtime. Then he was at NBC. Then he like worked his way up. And he's like the head of Comcast or something. But at the time, he was a creative guy that we had to pitch. And I was like, who is that guy? I want to be that-- like, he just listened to us to say our creative thing. We were all like, hey, everything. Please like us and give us money. And then he was like, he asked me questions. And he was like, OK, yeah. So I was like, who's the guy that gets to approve the thing? I want to be-- like, I really did. My head was like, OK, how do I do that? And I once I kind of position myself with something, let me just like-- So you're being very strategic? So I knew I wanted to be in-- I wanted to work for Media Company. I was like, one of these places is going to give me job. I know what all these things are. Someone's going to want some of those digital media. I know what these things are. And this is the beginning of digital media. And then very randomly, I was at a party with a friend talking about this video stuff I was doing. Because at the time, it was like, I would blow people's minds when I'd explain them what I was doing with video on the internet. They were like, who are you? You're an alien from outer space. Like, it was really fun to be an obviously unhyper person. You can kind of already hear. And I'd be like, let me tape all these things. Maybe like, people's eyes would get so big. I mean, this is, again, pre-YouTube. Literally explaining to people the future-- they were like, you are actually from the future. I'm like, I am. The little thing-- any of us know that this really was the future. Yeah, well, so I'm at a party. And my friend's friend was like, oh, I'm actually recruiting for NBC wants me to hire a staff up a digital media department. You're literally talking about exactly-- I don't even know what this stuff is or talking about, but you just said 15 of the words they said. So why don't you come and apply for a job at NBC? And their digital media department that I've got to staff up. I was like, OK, so then I ended up in NBC. Yeah. In their first digital media department. Yeah, so being a pioneer now from this sort of activist scrappy DIY site to major-- Yeah, working for artists who also-- Also in real artisans. It's so fun. And they just thought it was really cool and fun. And let me do whatever I want and pay you nothing. But still, whatever it was sort of fun, scrappy environment. And then being in a super, super, super corporate environment, I was not prepared. Yeah. So you did that for-- Also, talk me-- all of this have taught me about how media gets-- I mean, NBC thing was eye-opening. It was like, oh, this is how stuff gets made. And this is why TV sucks. And this is why-- Right. So take us-- gosh, we were spending a whole time just on this journey, but it's so fascinating. I want to get us up to date. It is relevant because it's really what I want people to learn is sort of the path that people go on. And everybody has their own journey. But what's important is what did you do to find your openings that getting involved in things you're passionate about, working with other people, taking it to getting the opportunity from this one thing to the other side. So I was in NBC. I still saw everything. I was like, well, I've only ever-- NBC only pitched myself as an artist. When I showed them what I was doing, it was all my art projects. That's brilliant because it took me a long time to come back around the same time. But when I got hired at the film company, they were like, oh, I showed my photography work to get hired at film company. I was never qualified for the things I was hired for. I was just showed them my art projects. So did it fastward a little bit. So NBC, and then you sort of partly down into working for-- Yeah. NBC is where I really learned about this corporate culture. And I was blown away. It was really disturbing. But I also learned about the corporate media production, and how, again, I learned about money and how much-- wow, how much money there is. I also learned a lot about the legal aspects of stuff. Suddenly, actually, I was there when-- I was actually there when the only island put their first clips on YouTube, on authorized. I needed to get a meeting with a lawyer. And there were the lawyers who were a little busy. Actually, no, I was meeting with one of the lawyers. And she was like, let me tell you what's actually happening right now. and they were like trying to untangle that, trying to figure out how to get on YouTube because it had already been posted by - Oh, you think not before they had planned on? - Yeah, they weren't, they weren't doing anything. They weren't even gonna work with that platform. - She's amazing. - I was in the group that actually negotiated the first Apple iTunes content deal. I was there when that happened. - Wow. - Remember, one of the executives, like his, my cubicle, it was back to his office and he was like, he called us in to show it. He's like, hey, come, come, come, come here, look at this. We're like, what are we looking at? I was like, it's coming from there. And he's like, yeah, it is. We just like did this deal with iTunes for like get video content from the iPod. We were like, that's so crazy. - Yeah. - I know, and it's so weird, 'cause it's so normal now. - I'm not that long ago. - I was in this like, inside of this moment. - You're like, the way this is been written. - But, you know, that component and that one, before we all really taught me all the sort of like, ins and outs of the sort of the technical stuff around like innovation and like, what can, I didn't really understand what could hold, I was very frustrated in there. And then when I went to show time, I was also frustrated. And the one who had excited, but I was so frustrated about what was holding back some of the innovation and excitement and content from getting out there. But I learned about like legal stuff. I learned about like, just the ins and outs of like media industry in a bigger way. But also like the negative stuff. And also like this sort of, you know, I really, after I was at showtime, and I was realizing that like, I was having a lot of success in this area that had, did not think I had any expertise in it all. At that point I was working in marketing. I was executive in marketing, showtime networks. - It was your title. - I think I was one of the first people on television with a social media, my job title or social, my job title. I would go to things and I'd pull out, like we came up, we were like, let's put, like social something in that title. It wasn't technical, I mean, it wasn't really what I was doing. I was kind of, it wasn't what social media was. - It wasn't what social media was. - I catch all what I was, I was in a marketing department, but I was doing all kinds of stuff related to helping them figure out how to, yeah, use social, digital content. I made it all kinds of stuff. - Well, you made original content for your own content. - For my original content, we made, - Like some of the first digital shorts. - Yeah, we did Twitter accounts, we did, getting access to stuff, - But this was all kinds of stuff. - Experimental, they didn't care. - And nobody knew what they were doing. This didn't exist as like brand on the internet. - Yeah, so I could just come up with ways to use it. They let me partner with whoever I wanted as long as I can get it through legal. (laughs) And then, and also all those, once I was in that position, a lot of the people knew me from these media startups and these YouTube groups, so they would have some idea, family, which got sold, became something that got sold to like, Disney or like second life. All these crazy startup people would work with us because showtime, we would work with anybody if we could negotiate a deal that was basically free. You know what I mean? Like a free partnership. They would let me kind of, so people had platforms, they wanted to try out that were social or fan-centriarch. - And this was the era of Dexter and the tutors. - Yeah, outward. Those are the big shows. - Reads. - Yes, those are the big shows. - Those are the big shows. - Just to give people some context to that. - Dexter, outward tutors, we, - And there was some cool projects that we did. - We did so much fun with this. It's no one was paying attention. And the content was really good. No one was paying attention. - Yeah. - And it was freedom because it was early and it hadn't all been content. - Yeah, and I started to think like that I was having all the success. At that time, I had this mindset that I was having the success despite the fact, like I also even knew that I was kind of doing some business development basically. I was sort of really towards that area. I was like, I think what I'm doing is like, actually business development. I was audience development or something. It was bigger than just like, I wasn't in like, I don't know, it wasn't really sure. Like my titles were always a little bit nebly. I was two of these places. It wasn't coming from an advertising background. So I didn't have a specific role. But it was in an innovator, you know. But I was like, oh, I'm having this success, but it's despite the fact that I have a BFA. I felt kind of like his shame. That was like, all I did is get a heart strike. - I love the fact that I can now tell people that I teach in a business school. And I only have a BFA. - That's great. - Yeah, I was like, not part of it, but I would be like in these situations, this meeting was like, I was, you know, being this room full of television executives, network executives, corporate people. Everyone's a lawyer, half of them went to Harvard. Like, I don't know, whatever. - Yeah. So just like, okay, I'm gonna sort of fastward a little. So you worked at NBC, you worked at Showtime. You left there, you ended up in the nonprofit world, still doing similar work, but you sort of shifted focus. I left Showtime because I, many reasons, but I wanted to be a VP and there was no role. There was no path for me. There was no leadership development. I was interested in these sort of things sort of on the sideline of like, there was no leadership development opportunity for me. There was no mentor for me. There was no women's leadership group. There was like nothing that like, and I was really looking for something. I was like, I feel like I could really do something at this company, you know, like I'm doing well here. Like, where's my little path? Like I couldn't really, you know, I just felt like I was grabbing on rungs that we're just breaking. And I think that's a very common feeling for certainly a lot of women in the corporate situation and media, knowing what we know now media is terrible to what I knew in there. But basically just like very terrible for women. Terrible for a lot of people, particularly as we know terrible for women. But I really, I always describe it as like climbing a ladder where like each rung just breaks as you grab it. Like that is like the feeling of like, I know people experience that in all kinds of careers, but it's very, very much that feeling. It was just so disheartening and it just, yeah, broke that job broke my heart kind of. Yeah. A little bit. So you ended up working with a non-profit. But at the opportunity to work on a non-profit, they were like, we'll make it real. Like a VT. Yeah, basically I was like, I was like, I want to be a VP somewhere. I need to find another job. Someone that I need to like have a path to that. If I'm going to be in this corporate world and like be an artist on the side instead of like priority, like I need to have some authority and I need to be able to do something. So I feel like I'm doing something, you know? And I just like didn't see that opportunity. But like, did you continue making art during this series? Always. Yeah, always. But not necessarily the gallery focus. Curated. I had moved at that point to like the short form video stuff that would become my specialty because of the online video. So I'd curated. I loved organizing curated stuff through that first that group of artists that we worked with. And then other opportunities came onto. You were an organization one of the 48 hour film festivals, right? I produced it 48 hour film festival. One festival, one time. I-- so yes, there's short-- did some like museum had me curate a short form video, producing-- yeah, producing curated some short form video stuff because of that experience on the web. But again, like, never-- I was constantly never took me anywhere. I don't-- I just kind of thought like I would have ended up in content at one of these companies. I just couldn't get anybody to like really click into where I was at. I don't know. I just-- I guess it was. So-- But I always did art. And I made-- well, I also got really come into this idea of like a daily practice. I'll always just do something. I really had a vision of my art transforming into like my life in a way that was more integrated. And I really didn't like this idea of like making these discrete pieces of artwork that then go hang on these gallery walls that then people pay for. This whole structure just stopped really appealing to me. I got that starting with the film stuff, but really getting more into like-- and learning more about experimental artists and film, and just really wanting this idea about the art to be this sort of continual thing. And the idea of like a creation of an artwork that is almost like a stone gathering moss. Like an artwork isn't a discrete item. An artwork is always nebulous. And it's never finished or-- or it is constantly in process. Which is something that conceptually-- Yeah. And that was really integrated into my life in some way. Which is something that you can't really sell. And you can't sort of fit into existing boxes of the art world. And that's true to like early-- I think it was also very, very inspired at that time. There were some-- because all the digitizing there was a couple amazing shows of early video artists. And I mean, people recording on VHS because that's that kind of stuff, or early video artists. And a lot of the early video artists were women. Contemporary artwork. And I was just so inspired. And so much of that was being about like not being able to. We don't want you to come modify this. And this is a space that is unknown. And this is a space that is ours. We can make it whatever we want. There is no setup for what a video art should be. Right? You don't have to worry about the canon of whatever that came before. So I think at that time, I really got inspired by that. And was really excited about that. Especially thinking about women and media. And that video art in the early days was really-- like women largely like form the earliest. Some of those seminal video art works. Yeah. And a lot of those were being shown-- like there was a couple big shows, I think because of the digitizing that haven't happening. That those shows were able-- people were actually able to show a lot of those works. So I think they were not accessible. Does that make sense? Yeah. So the last sort of full-time work in an office job was working for this nonprofit. A nonprofit? And-- But then folded, which was sad. Yeah. And so when they folded, you were like, I don't want to keep working in this sort of this mode. I'm going to switch to entrepreneur. It's just really done being a-- At that point, I was like fully communications marketing for content and media. Like a media communications marketing person, specialty and media and arts and culture. Yeah, art and culture media person. But I was like, I don't want to work on other people's stuff anymore. It's also like coming-- tonight, it's like a very strong toolkit in marketing. And particularly like marketing for right now. Creating marketing strategy with the contemporary digital media landscape. What's a specialty of mine? And there was-- like, no, people have that specialty. And I was like, I don't want to go work in an ad agency. I don't want to market other people's stuff anymore. And also being told to market things, you're like, it doesn't fit with that. I need to be further up the chain. I just can't point to be further and further up the chain. So that the marketing would be better. You're like, I'll do the marketing, but the better. The thing is-- Well, I felt the same way as a graphic designer, because I was like, OK, I want to be an art director. I want to be-- whatever-- and every tier was like, how much higher can I get so that I can help you make new decisions? Instead of you giving me crap to do that's bad, because you've already made all these decisions that if I had helped you with. And so that's why I had a company-- Yeah. --the company designed therapy. Because I was like, you guys need a way to think about this. If we're going to do good work. And that's where you and I basically intersect at that moment. You were sort of at that sort of thing. I can't just like design a logo and they're like picking colors random like it doesn't make any sense Yeah, I need to help them figure out what their purposes So that was kind of you were kind of doing branding basically for these not proper essentially Yeah, and I was working with mostly small business and nonprofits and helping them branding Yeah, and there were big budgets and they didn't necessarily have the you know knowledge around that But I was getting cool opportunities But I'd also stagnated and was like I hate this work. It's really boring for me now I loved what I was doing but then it became so just monotonous So we intersected you're gonna have to slow this down People list the podcast at one and a half times speed now, so you're fine. Okay. This actually sounds like that It's already set up so you'll get a lot more data in this one than normal So we intersect I don't remember what year was it that you came to me when did 2009 it doesn't 11 was a long time ago it was like I think it was 2011 I actually looked it up and I couldn't believe how long ago it was So you came to me at some point in that you you sort of been doing your own thing I knew that I was like I kind of had this feeling of like what that place folded I had some you know sex months of like you know really low because I had You know employment some employment coming and I was like cool I'll try being like a freelance consultant and I did a couple consulting gigs. I got to but I was like Yeah, this is kind of I don't know how I felt about it. I was sort of like it wasn't for me I don't know if I how I approach you you and I were just talking we were both like ready to like not do it I had gotten so I had gotten I know school they was never so I run this business I've gotten really burned out. I did school a day so from 2007 to this in eight June to June I did this project and I got weird opportunities from it And so I was suddenly you know, I think it was like 2010 when I started getting the corporate gigs And I started getting asked to talk to corporations and I was like, I don't know This is I don't know why you would want to talk to me. I'm a graph design. I'm an artist But none of this connected so then They were making those connections for me and I started traveling and you saw me going I mean like I've got this weird side gig where I keep traveling and and it's taking more and more time And I actually like it and it's paying way better This is my design work, but I didn't have a formal plan around it. I just did it. It just came Yeah, I think I was like I knew after after I was literally I had what had I not done marketing for I was like we did books I did records we did like live events. I did TV shows. I've done films. I was like wow There's nothing I haven't like at this point done marketing for multimedia um little magazines publications. I guess. Oh, no, we did actually what am I talking about? Of course I did work at tablet and juicy I know see um, but I think I was very interested in that business development side as I had said before and I was kind of like What is this is something I kind of do? Don't I do I need a business degree to do this? I don't think so I don't know and I think I was sort of like hey, no, what if like you're doing all this stuff I felt like you were doing all this stuff and you're working value I guess you like the whole skull stuff was the opportunity to come in and know of but you were still just like I'm not making any money I'm still like right you saw there was value that I was I was under valuing the Yeah, you were having well, I mean I was of course I was probably I probably was super jealous of you I don't remember right now, but I'm sure I was wildly jealous of you because here I am like I got no job Like I was going on the Martha Stewart show. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly that's what it was I'm sure I was wildly jealous of you. That's probably why we worked together professional jealousy I'm sure it comes back around. I'm sure it is I like basically I was sorry you were having Wild success and I was like well, I have like I got like You know, I was like yeah, jobless couldn't find any way up and any of these big you know I have the opportunities to then kind of felt like they felt through for me or something you're in all this wild success And I was like what is going on for this guy like let's see And I got this only from the exterior because And then you tell me yeah, you tell me you're so frustrated I was like wait this guy shouldn't we broke based on what I knew of like media I was like I was making a living what I wasn't doing was capitalizing on Value of what I'm doing like corporations are bringing me in and I'm charging like non-profit rates and it was like what do you do that was I'm in my first question being like how am I you telling me this stuff And I was like well wait like you mentioned one particular client and I had worked for them And I was like and I used that some of their money. I said well, what are you? What are you touching them for that? And you told me and I was like oh I think you need to let me handle this from now on I remember that was that my little moment But when you told me how much you charge up a particular client. I was like oh no, no, no, no You need to let me handle this so then we began this experiment which started sort of in one direction Which was we you you created a speaker's bureau? Well, yeah as as one sort of iteration of the company. Yeah, I was sort of like well, okay How can we expand this? Running like yeah, like what else can we I also was just like let me see what I can let me tell me all the things You're doing and let me see if any of these are any angles like true like little business I was like which one of also I just came out of like a company that was like founded by like Like the guy that founded Aaron and Jacob were very inspired by like um, you know like deaf jam, you know rubens and Ruben and on and what space totally and that sort of scrappiness and also that yeah the hip hop mentality of like you know How are we gonna like you know, but I love that so I think also being exposed to kind of that energy and excitement Around being like it's exciting to make money on your art. It's not a bad thing It's a great thing actually and enough years in New York eight years in New York something where I was like Yeah, I don't want to be poor in New York. That's not cool. Yeah So we and we went to that one iteration and then eventually what we did was we we basically shut down my company and relaunched it as a consultancy because of your sort of Thoughts about that and how to sort of manage this this sort of stuff and also you developed the creative sprint concept Based on the work that was happening and what we were doing and I guess again for the listeners who haven't encountered it Creative sprint is our register trademark 30 day creative practice that is built on the sort of knowledge of that we developed and found within The originally this go the day practice and then the books and talks and stuff that followed so it's been this sort of Process of pulling out all this content from this experience. Yeah, figuring out what what of it? What is what is its value to whom is it valuable most valuable right what is it value? Who's your audience like traditional business stuff? And then realizing that like that stuff is awesome and fun and actually exciting and ultimately Discussing those conversations that I want to have about art you and I are having that we're having them I'm having with clients and having with conversations about art that I want to have that I don't have with artists I have with like corpus somebody just asked me on the other day about like what I was doing in a Corporate setting or And I said you know what I love Teaching people in a corporate setting because they want to hear what I'm saying and they're engaged and they're excited And they're learning and the lights are going off in a way that it wasn't happening when I was teaching in art school But now when I'm teaching in business school I'm getting that so it's not it's a strange time we live in a weird time basically that this is the the experience we're having but I guess I want to talk about this sort of where that's taking us because we've taken our Backgrounds and our art experiences and our continued art practices and funneled them into this business that now now We both run together and sort of all the things we're doing is I always say my Venn diagram and yours may be different but I've been diagram is really like a circle for art and a circle for Consulting slash teaching that and that goal is always just sort of pushing those two circles to overlap more I just once I sort of got that idea about like Art been life's really Converging and I love Andy Warhol obviously and and he was all about the business being a business artist Is not a business man Business artist I'm a business man. You have business man Jay's equal. Yeah But but also opening your mind about what is to do business and be a business person that that's not actually that's also There's art and creativity to that and it's just innovative and exciting and they're sort of they can sort of be the same thing That's what you want it to be. Yeah, so this is the question I ask everyone at some point and it's one that I think people Some people are more challenged by in a good way Which is do you think you are successful? Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, I actually again, but my I Can't even believe one I would never and my god come on like I have no aspirations to be where I am I think I'm wildly successful of course. I'm like You're the rare person. Well, no, somebody both said I think because I have very low expectations I tell my friend I have a friend this who is a friend particular friend actually I do have like incredible professional gel. Let's see around but she's like I Always tell her like you just need have lower expectations Then you'll be really like I'm like how are you not happy with what your situation is you are wildly successful? And I was like I'm your situations you need to learn expectations Yeah, I think that's I mean, I think that's a really good point right is that the lower your expectations like then everything's delight For surprise I don't mean it a negative way. I mean it in the good way. No, I agree I agree Well, because the other side of it is like that person's experience and I've had it too Where once you achieve a certain level of success you realize it's not where you thought it was and you're not where you want to be There's always another tear above it and there's always whenever you get behind the curtain of something you realize like how the How the stuff is made it's never as exciting or as cool and you're always like he is like getting getting I would get like I Would be pretty good once I'd set my mind to be like I'll never work in documentary like I actually really managed like things would happen Like serendipitously but like a lot luck and a lot of like I'm a pretty pretty willing to walk through some doors I'm pretty willing to take some chances. I'm kind of willing to like tell people what I want and ask for stuff and see so Even though I said myself and you know, I want to work in documentary I want to do I want to make some documentaries. I want to work in television and I can you know make these things happen Then I'd get there and I'd see what it was all about and I'd be like Yeah, and then first let me try to change it and then be like oh, that's not gonna change Yeah, so I think it's Pushing yourself to go to those places and then explore them the best you can take what you want and but then also Relays on other people's success. Yes meeting a lot of people who also have a lot of success in certain areas and hearing from them It's no I'd rather I'd rather be feel successful and feel happy and then not I don't like that feeling of I mean professional jealousy is a bad bad feeling. - That's good. - The way I try to take it so I don't feel bad about when I do have it, which is not that often, I try to take it as like okay, like feel the feeling, but think about it as like this isn't take this as a little radar of what you want. - Right. - You know, help use this to direct what you actually want for yourself and what is it about it, what they have that you want. - Yeah. - And then I need to try that to see if I want it. And just know the other people's success and your success, you know, that's for them. - They're mutually exclusive. - Staying in your lane, that's one of my biggest like things, stay in your lane. I don't know when someone's at the end. - Which I think is normally a really bad thing to say. - No, I like it. - Yeah. - I think someone said to me or whatever, it was, it made so much sense. I was like, right, why am I worrying about that? - Which I think is more the hedgehog from like, if you're really good to great, that's that hedgehog concept, which is like, put your head down and keep going in that direction. - Well, so your thing is your thing. - Like, don't worry about anything else. If you stay focused on your thing. - I feel like that, just mean like. - But that thing is knowing a good way. If you stay focused and you barrel forward, you get places. - Right. - So it reminds me of two things. One is, I'll never forget, the slash Coleman was the person who was like, if you want something to happen, write it down. It's like a magic spell. It works. And so to your point, like that specificity around what, being clear about what you want and very specific about it, you could make it happen, right? You did that over and over. And then the other piece of it, now. - But we are, it's weird though, because I think with a lot of creative people, you have to be willing to like, pick that thing over other things for a while. Do you know what I'm saying? - Would they mean like, all the things are interesting? - Yeah, I think for a lot of people, it's really, what I see is like, it's very hard for them. They feel like they can't do other things. I really do think you have to pick one thing and focus on it for a while if you want to happen, right? And I think that that does mean sometimes, you know, you can't do, you know, you can't do anything, but you can't do everything at the same time. - I want to get it. - He's like, as I'm making a podcast. - I know, I know, talk about it. I'm like, oh, media at once. I do think you can do, I think you can do anything. - I could focus more. - I think you know anything. I think, at least me, I need to-- - No, no, you're correct. - And to have a certain amount of success and so I actually need to have a certain amount of success. You have to pick the thing. I also remember Ellie and I wrote this, and I wrote an article for Zine, and this is back in 1990. It was actually more of an illustration. But it was about like, how does-- - There's no illustration I wrote for Zine. - The illustration I made for Zine. - I was making a podcast in 1994. It was basically a cave fanning. I just was like, oh, isn't that Ellie Quinn? It was about this sort of a joke we had about like how, like how to do anything you want. And it was sort of just like, like first, it was like a diagram and we were saying, isn't it funny? Like first you have to be famous. Then you can write a book, then you can do it this, then you can have a perfume, then you can have a whatever. But I've thought about that. It's like, you just need to do one thing well enough that like you're successful in that thing. - Absolutely. - Then you can move on to the next thing. - And then you can do anything you want. - If you can get-- if you can garter enough success. - Right, but you can then do all the other things. - But you do need to kind of filter all your energy towards one thing. - So the way I describe it to be pretty-- - I think-- no, no, no. - Is that if you're standing somewhere and you see all these things around you want to do, step towards one of them, another step towards it, you're just walking in a circle. If you want to get somewhere, you have to keep going on the same path. - So you have to pick one thing over other things sometimes. - Yeah, and keep going for a long time. - Yeah, until you resolve and see, because I'll put my losses on things. - Yeah, I also-- - Well, and I don't even think of this one. - I don't want to see how far I can go with something. - I think if you get down a path far enough, you see branching opportunities, and then you can take turns on them and go further places. The way I describe it to my students is always this idea of like, I'm looking at the sort of leaf on a tree down to the trunk, it seems like a straight line. But from the trunk out, it's a million opportunities. And at that point, it's hard to decide. You have to just pick things and do them. Otherwise, you just duck at the trunk. And if you want to get to that end point, but you don't know which leaf you're going to end up-- - I think once you branch off here, you'll never get to go over here. But in reality, as we know, especially from working with so many executives who are super alpha-focused people, you know, that you can get to the top of the chain here. And then guess what, you can skip over to the top of the chain somewhere else, because now you have this ability-- - So you're a fly squirrel. - You're a fly and squirrel squirrel. But that's actually a good point, right? Yeah, once you get to that, like-- - Then you just leap to another tree. - You're like, it's like levels in a video game or something. - Yeah, really? - But that idea that like, yeah, you have that-- will you have expertise, you have connection, like whatever you did in that one area, you can leverage for another area sometime-- In some way. - Yeah, absolutely. - In some way, not always directly. - I mean, ultimately-- - I'm the skull guy, because of the success of the skull project. - It's great. - And that's led to-- - I literally stand up in front of audiences that are banking executives. - I mean, not for a year. - I'm standing in front of you, because I made skulls. - So all about skulls. - So that's the advice you should get-- - Make skulls. - So many skulls. - That's not good advice at all. But it is exactly what you're saying, which is I stuck with something for a long time. - To the exclusion of other things. - Yeah, and it was a lot of time and effort, and it paid off. And I always say that was a one-year investment that's given me over a dozen years of return already. I guess 12 years will be soon. - So crazy. - It is crazy. - I mean, so that's why we're here today. And that's the opportunities that I get come from those seeds that were planted from there. So you're today doing this work because of all that stuff that you did back then and all these crazy things, Pans, you went on. And now you're teaching as well. - I teach entrepreneurship. We laugh, we laugh. - I teach creative culture at a business school and you teach entrepreneurship. - Yeah, you're teaching art to business. Do you think I'm teaching business to art to business basically? - Love it. - In short, which is pretty funny. - Yeah. So what do you want to be doing next? What's your sort of dream next step? Or, you know, like, where do we take this? Is there a thing you really been wanting to do? Or with your art? Is there another level? - Why are we at art? It's a New York. - Because you've been showing some work at. - Still, I don't love. And I love. I mean, I got to create an art show for dogs and take that. - What about that? You know, with that, that's a good point, right? Is that you used your art background to become a producer of projects. - Yeah, I think I. - No, I really want to be. I really want to take a word doing like very. Like, I think there's some big ideas that I'd like to take the next level we're doing. Just around the idea of like, integrating arts integration to education in different ways. I think that's really important to me in terms of like how we're offering on arts integration is very different. This is sort of inside our language. But like, the idea of like having art as a component of education that's not separated is part of how you teach different things is through art. So you teach math and science through art and culture. And that sort of. There's a movement to reintegrate that. And it relates to like, sort of in this world of like STEM education, there's this movement around making that steam, albeit the idea that like, science technology, engineering, math, like you have to have the arts also. And so I'm interested in that in how that. Like, we have a very unique approach to that in terms of bringing into business schools and also like influencing the people, business leaders of. and entrepreneurs and business leaders of tomorrow. I think we also. I think ultimately, like for me art. art is different things for people, but for me it relates to freedom, mostly. Like how freedom to learn and do or play or be. Well, I like that it comes full circle, right? Because we're the children of our teachers and we've come around to like, we want to be our teachers for the world, basically. Right, right, right. Because we ultimately are realizing that there's no value in that. And seeing it enacted by the people that we encounter through our work and seeing it really has impact. Yeah, I want to. I think I want to like delve a little back into something. not academic so much, but a little bit of that, like, I think what we do has some. Yeah, I think it has a lot of value if people wouldn't be coming to us. I mean, I'm just blown away by the kind of people that are responding to what we're talking about right now. Yeah. The language we've developed to talk about this, which is really what we've done. Yeah. Not our art, but. I mean, you're artists blowing people's minds and it's definitely a great entree to giving people's attention. But the way we talk about it is what really connects people to and then opens up that conversation for so many more people to be talking about art. And then that art conversation allows them to talk about their lives and the ideas and feelings and how they run their businesses. Do you have an art goal? Is it like with your own personal art practice or something you want to be doing? Yeah, yeah. You have been doing poetry lately. That's been a thing because I've just felt like. I think poetry is having a moment because words have failed us in the past couple of years. So I think poetry is coming back in a big way and I'm part of that. So writing some poems. I think I'm going to do some small publishing maybe. I don't know. Talking about that. Cool. Some illustrations, maybe some pictures, some words. I like all the small press stuff that's happening lately. That's pretty inspiring. Back to the Zines. I don't know. I don't have an art. I mean, yeah. I don't know. Just living your life. Make some stuff. Run a business. There you go. Be cool. Like I just want to be cool person. Like, I'm basically Zinn. I'm like, I want to wear crazy clothes. I'm curly hair and like. She's sexy. She cool in New York. I haven't really gotten for this. There you go. I don't know. That's not. I don't know. I'm just living your life. Make some stuff. Run a business. There you go. Be cool. I don't know. I'm talking about you. You can edit all of that out. No, we're really bad. That's so bad. Well, my God. I'm tired. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for being on my podcast. Oh, thanks for having a podcast that I could be on. Of course. I'll make a podcast for you anytime. I think we should uh yeah maybe we'll come up with some other topics. I'm honored so thanks. Thanks for listening to foreground background with me Noah Scalen. If you want to know more about the work Micah and I are doing with our business another limited rebellion, check out the site, another limited rebellion.com, which will be in the show notes. And if you want to help me make more things like this show, please consider becoming one of my Patreon supporters at patreon.com/noescalant. And of course please rate and review this podcast wherever you found it. The music used on this episode is Flying High 2019 Hip Hop Remix by Jantracks. [Music]