Miami's Wine Boom: What the Industry Can Learn From America's Hottest Luxury Market

[Music] Welcome to the Rene Global in Conversation Podcast, where we talk about the future of FineWine. I'm Paul Indicare, Director of Rene Global, and in this series we bring your conversation with some of the most interesting and influential figures in and around the world of FineWine to talk about how the world is changing, how these changes impact the production, distribution, and consumption of FineWine and how that creates risks to be managed and opportunity to be seized. [Music] The very first time this year, in Expo America, organized its annual trade show in Miami, moving away from its traditional venue in New York. I was invited to speak at the conference, and this gave me the perfect opportunity to visit a city that has been puzzling me for the last few years. I mean, I had heard the tales, right? A booming city in the Sunshine State with a huge concentration of high net worth individuals, and of course, people happy to live on credit, living their life as a year long holiday, who indecently splurging on wine and performative luxury, while posting everything on social media, of course. Whether tales true, what opportunities could Miami and Florida represent for the FineWine market, and to what extent could Miami help in the wine trade current crisis? Lucky for me, I ran into the best Miami guide anyone could wish for. Sarah Phillips-McCarthan, a name that we know really well at a really global as Sarah was our head of membership until 2023. Based in Miami since 2019, Sarah has been extremely active in shaping the burgeoning wine industry, and has a result seems to know absolutely everyone. So for four days, we'd tour the city's best wine places and interviewed key personalities, both during and outside of Vinexpo America. Here is what we learned about the incredibly dynamic, passionate, hungry, and growing wine scene of a city that might change a single two for the future fine wine. So, Sarah, before we do so, I was wondering if you could give us some elements of context about Miami and things that will help people that have never been there to understand the market? Sure, of course. So I moved here in January 2019, so almost seven years ago. And when I got here, there was already a much more serious and developed wine trade than I had expected to be completely honest with you. There was a lot of serious people. There was a lot of tastings, the Florida wine academy had opened two years before to teach WSET and so on. And this really laid the foundations for what went on to happen in 2020. So I think we know this story quite well already, but in 2020, a lot of the world, and you know, in the US and the country, it's long lockdowns, multiple long lockdowns during the pandemic. And in Florida, we had one short and to be completely honest with you, not very well enforced. Yeah, I remember the difference between my life and yours at the moment when I was locked down in London. And you were like, "No, well, we've got sunshine here." It was quite different. For sure. The sunshine definitely helped. And to be honest with you, by late spring, early summer, 2020, most restaurants, hotels, and so on had reopened. So basically you had this situation where there was a lot of people stuck in lockdowns, meanwhile in Florida, there was sunshine beaches, hotels, restaurants, and low taxes. Which always helps. Which always helped as well. So this combination of things attracted a lot of people to move here, particularly wealthy people from other parts of the country who were able to work remotely. The famous tech bros that we all kind of talked about. So there's some interesting figures taken, 2021 to 2022. Florida gained about 417,000 new residents, is the figure that I found. And that made it the fastest growing state in the country. And actually, I think, yeah, it's a lot of migration. And actually, the numbers that I've seen suggest that Florida remains the fastest growing state this day. So of course, what this meant for our industry for wine was a boom in restaurant openings, especially kind of big large scale high-end restaurants, and with that came kind of a boom in wine sales. Which of course, we saw around the world, but was particularly strong here. And since then, this has kind of been up and down. And then markets kind of blocks a little bit. It's definitely pulled back since then. But I think it's fair to say that Miami and what Florida and Miami as its biggest city have really established itself as a key market in the year of 1J. Yeah, I remember before 2020, we used to think about the US as like East and West in terms of residents and maybe a bit of Texas if you were really innovative. And then since then that really that positioning has really changed and a lot of serious people are taking Miami seriously. Do you have some figures to give us some data that could allow for this? I do. I've got some numbers for you. So Florida's population just to give you a broad look is about 23 million. So I think if you add Norway, Sweden and Denmark together. Just for an idea of so. So of those 2.8 million live here in Miami, which is the county that Miami is part of and then the broader urban sprawl and it really kind of connects. You can just drive all the way straight up from Miami through Broward County, which has fought Lauderdale and then Palm Beach contains a total of 6.4 million residents. So almost or just over a quarter in the kind of what we call South Florida. And of course there's an inhabitants but as I discovered when I visited you, there's also the tourist that are massive, right? Yeah, tourism's big. Well there's this kind of two things. So tourism's big and the number I found, which is pretty staggering actually, as opposed to this, is Florida received 143 million visitors in 2024, which is a huge. And then we also have the snowbirds. Have you had this term? No. So the snowbirds are very wealthy people who have multiple homes and they fly south for them to. Of course. Yeah. They've been places like New York, Chicago and Canada. Barrows. You know, and. But probably bigger than Sparrows to make up. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not very much about that. But you know, so it's also another number, I've got as the size of the economy in Florida and I think, you know, often we think about the US as a whole, but breaking it down by states. Quite interesting. So the Florida economy has valid at around $1.7 trillion, which makes it the fourth largest in the US and actually larger than the entire. Countries of Spain or the Netherlands. Wow. Which is a lot. And then we touched on miles with the snowbirds, but I was reading this interesting report the other day by a. A residence and citizen citizenship advisory firm. I didn't know they existed. But there's this one called Henley and partners and it's found that the number of millionaires living in Miami has increased by 94% in 10 years. And in Palm Beach, the number is 114%. Wow. And that makes the fourth fastest growing wealth hub in the world. And Miami is in eighth place on that. On that same list. So. Yeah, I guess that I'm just that explains also why Miami has been so exciting for people lately and some of the gold rush that it seems, you know, that it happening over there. And so on shine beaches and tax breaks. Yeah, that's all we need really. So as I mentioned in the intro, I spent a couple of days with you in Miami. So that was early May of 2025. And I wanted to start this conversation discussing some of my biggest takeaways from that trip. And really what I think makes Miami really special on top of sunshine beaches and tax breaks as you just said. And I guess, yeah, but I guess that helps because the very first, you know, sentiment that I got is and I've that I've heard said is that, you know, Miami feels like we're never ending holiday, right? You were kind of you were very kind to take me to many different neighborhoods in in four days and they're very different in terms of architectural styles and vibes. But I guess you have that constant feeling of being in a bubble because you know the weather's beautiful and everyone is wearing their flip flops are like summer clothes and it feels like a never ending, you know, vacations. So you've been there for seven years. Is that is that something that you feel to, you know, when you stay a bit longer than four days, I suppose. I'll start by saying that sure I wake up every morning, I look outside, I feel very grateful for these guys and sunshine and I didn't call ever get bored of that is it's pretty amazing. But your comments, you know, specifically about the atmosphere, I mean, it reminded me of when I first got here and I went to my very first tasting in Miami. And it was this big Italian tasting hosted by James Suckling and I was kind of fresh off the boat from London wearing tart and trousers, a jacket carrying a notebook. And I walked into this room to find, you know, a room for cocktail dresses, high heels and a DJ in the middle. And I was like, okay, do I think the boarding cans are saying more. And this is an extreme example, say obviously not all wine tasting, so this flashy. definitely happen, but for sure there's a good sense of fun here. So yeah, there are differences, but unfortunately it's not one giant holiday, work is work, just like in any other city in the world, and there are undlamorous annoyances here as well, like the traffic, the traffic is so bad. Yeah, I remember that I'm going to tell party and it's really good fun. So going down to the wine world now, one of my biggest again takeaways and something that's very palpable even if you don't stay very long, is how important the untraders, like the hospitality stage for the wine scene in Miami, and maybe probably more important than, you know, there's this feeling that's really the market's been built by hospitality more than by merchants or importers, like it potentially can be the case here in London. Did I get that right? Would you agree with that? Yeah, I mean the trade structures just completely different from London for sure, and at the premium end, there are some great independent retailers absolutely, but hospitality is just enormously important. I think I read that 75% of all wine sold in Miami was sold through the restaurant, so that's huge. Yeah, that that number doesn't surprise me honestly. I mean, think about it and you get all these visitors coming here and getting tourists looking for a good time, you've got businesses having meetings and entertaining clients and many of them are going to drink wine. Yeah, so 75% sounds about right to me. And so there's actually this important segment of the restaurant industry that we call the club sterons, which is like clubs sterons. I know, you've had this term before. No, I never had. I'm a club sterons, I thought that was quite posh. Well, I'm not sure. They can be. So club sterons is a blend of the words club and restaurants, but some people call them quote, unquote, high energy venues. So during VNX, I haste a panel on the Florida market as part of Wine Talks Miami, which is the local trade group that I founded two years ago. And Egon Vallet, the corporate wine director of Mr. Hospitality, which is a group that includes restaurants, La Fiaque, Queen and Marion, spoke a little bit about this, so I wonder if we can hear from him. Yeah, let's do it. Those who are not from here, what is a high energy that needs to be? So essentially, it's a restaurant that at some point in the evening will turn into a party. So the music will get louder and make it their spot of service and some glorifiers and dancers and things will get crazy. So we have two of those in a way. It's very rare. Marion is really the high energy venue that we have. And things will get pretty crazy there. You will see all kinds of stuff, and of which we don't need to get into details right now. But it's a great opportunity to sell champagne. So 70, which I'll segue into the question they have had. The main category champagne are 70% of every bottle that will sell sometimes 80% in a week is champagne. And Queen, because we incorporate the shows, you can also categorize that as high energy venue. But it always feels weird saying this. But exactly remember that, right? It doesn't it doesn't it doesn't get as crazy as Marion, for instance. And another venue using Miami that we can think of Baguetteau, maybe kicking on the river and properties as such. And Queen, however, you see more of a mix maybe because of the gastronomy, which is a modern Japanese steakhouse approach to the cuisine. So you sell a lot of sake, a lot of white burgundy and champagne. And then Lafayette is a quintessential steakhouse. So of course, most of the wines are red there. But you know, it's an interesting mix. And the party scene I feel like is so ingrained with Miami. We always, you know, go through this sort of, you know, being not so decided or identity crisis made, we can call it. And because it's like, okay, do we do we continue doing the party? You know, how long is this going to last? Should we change it? Our time is changing. Our party place is ending. But then it just gets crazy and crazy during season every weekend, which, you know, for for an owner or for someone that is operating a venue as such. It's it's hard to like all that. Sorry, I have only two questions after this is, will the party continue in Miami? And what on earth is a champagne? All right. Okay, so on question one, I hope the party will continue. There have been so many openings recently there and in the last couple of years. And it's it's just not really clear house sustainable. That is, I hope everything is successful. A lot of people are expecting it quite some of this year, some are as low season as we'll discuss a little bit later. And that's going to be an interesting task for the restaurant trade. And I hope that they do well. But who knows, who knows? On point two, how best did uscribe a champagne parade? Have you seen a champagne parade pulling? No, on the video you said me. Next year when you're in Miami, we will go to a high energy venue and I will show you one. But just to explain it to someone who hasn't seen one before, it's a little bit like if you imagine when staff at a restaurant bring you a birthday cake or bring a child a birthday cake and everyone hears and sings except instead of cake, it's one or two multiple bottles of champagne, preferably in large format and generally presented by women in spotty costumes often involving sparklers and things like that. So I recently experienced my first champagne parade first hand at a friend's birthday party at Kiki on the river and this is a video that I sent you I think. Yeah. And it's a cake on the river's famous kind of high energy venue in downtown Miami. So there was a lot of pariahs you and it was it was pretty good fun. And actually on the table next to us there was a table about 10 people and they just finished having dinner and they started doing shots of crew. Yeah, like as anyone does. I'm sure it's a scene that you can see also like high energy places like Central Bay and you know, Lisa and those those kind of places. Las Vegas and so on. But you know, this is this is just one segment of the market right there's a lot of very calm wine drinking here too. Yeah and well to stay on the you know not that calm but the fun the ferns part and also that's something that is very palpable in Miami is like the owning of the fun. People do own the fact that they want to have fun which I find really interesting and refreshing and there's loads of places also in wine that underline this and I spend part of my trip actually wondering what could be the lessons then you know not only what are the lessons that we need to know to crack the code and enter the Miami market but what could the rest of the world learn from Miami. And I think they are they are some very interesting wine plays that I've understood that the fact that people want to have fun and enjoy their life and one of them typically is the one that you brought me on the last evening which is happy wine which everything's in the title but just describe as well that plays when you enter it and you use to the fine wine scene in Europe it's a bit disconcerting because it looks very low key and you've got all those very big yellow label that you used to see on supermarket shelves like with discount price and things and shelves everywhere as I'm tabled in the middle and then you pay attention to the wine in like the all the best wines in the world and then the last thing or the first thing depending I look at wine first that you see is that the live music and people you know dancing salsa and doing Congo lines drinking 300 dollars bottle of wine and that's that's certainly one of the most unique evening that I had in the context of fine wine and drinking those types of bottles and I thought you know again that really reminded me some of the study that we do at the moment about young consumers and you consumers and how they want to have fun and connect and how experience for them is fun and connection and I thought well gosh this so many wine makers that I know that would be you know not really happy to see their wines display with big yellow labels and you know drunk in that context but really that's the reason why they're making the wine right that that should be for the wine to be drunk and for the wine to be enjoyed and for the you know people to have fun and just make people dance and have a great time so that's something that I think we can take from Miami is that owning the fun and making it the central point of the of the client's experience yeah I absolutely love happy wine culture it's such a unique place like you say it's just pure kind of fun good you know good spirits good vibes JC and Joanna he ran it just amazing lovely people it may bring that spirit of kind of fun and openness and and like a really welcoming environment and I'm actually going on Friday night pooling so like you it'll be a congell I'm not sending some videos it's on social media I want to go back to Miami's reputation for you know easy money and for chasing the quick buck when it comes to hospitality because that's you know partly what Igor Valley was saying that that chase for you know dollars and and shots of crooks, kind of monies, appealing of course, for reasons that are very easy to understand, but it also comes with a lot of limitation. And so I talked to Zach Gosar, who has been working in many of the city stop restaurants since 28, 2008, sorry, so long before the current boom. One of the things that I'm trying to understand is, I mean, could you describe the wine culture, the wine scene in Miami at the moment, is someone who's never been here? Well, first of all, it is a bridging market. There are higher highs, and the floor has raised considerably, but it is very much restaurant and market dependent within Miami. I think it's actually 75% of the wines are sold on premise given by amy. Sounds right, it sounds right. Although there are more. There are. I feel like there's better options on the off-premise as well. So, but okay, so. So as I said, I've worked in some very high-level restaurants. I'm currently, and recently came back to Italian wineless, working from Mother Wolf, but so it's very dependent on the chef. It's very dependent on the reputation and the clientele that they bring to the market. So when I was at Thomas Keller at the surf club, I was there for four years, I was opening a bad bridge director there. You would have people sit down and they would say, "Listen, I have a $2000 budget. This is what I like, whatever you think is drinking best." There is full trust in the. In the song that is hired by Thomas Keller. I'm currently back at Italian, and I've forgotten how many people are just comfortable going with a $90 Pinabrejo or $100 Kianti. You're not gonna find a lot of fantastic French reds at $100 in the Miami market, so. But people are very comfortable. That's good and that's bad. Obviously, the comfort level was fantastic for clientele and getting people comfortable to come in and enjoy a meal on a restaurant. But as somebody who wants to sell the fine wines of the world, I don't have as many conversations now as I like to. And the trust is not there. And when you go into a lot of places in Miami, the first thing they want to do, they want to sell you the most expensive bottle. They play the short game, not the long game. I believe in cultivating guests, giving them trust. And once you've earned their trust, they'll give you, on their special occasions, they'll give you the opportunity, hey, I want to spend $1,000. I want to spend $1,000. I want to live as. Exactly, exactly. And I think that Miami in general, chase is that short dollar. And so, you're describing two very different settings from Thomas Keller to where you are now. Is it the same people, but visits, and just because the setting is different, behave differently, or is it different people? There is an overlap. There is a very small segment of people in Miami that, listen, in the 70s in the United States, people would talk about what theater you want to. Now everybody talks about what restaurant you go to. And that's the currency for a lot of people. So everybody wants to try out the hot new restaurant, and experience it, and be able to talk about it. So, at Keller, every Friday and Saturday night, you would have a handful of people, like when you would try to see the table, they would stop and say hello to every table because they knew everybody was a small thing. And it was very much an insider's game. - Exactly. - C and B scene. - Exactly. Exactly. And it's not always that superficial. There is, I don't wanna, I think that kind of downgrades it. To a large degree that is Miami, certainly. But there are very much people who have a lot of money that are low key that just wanna experience the best of the best. And there are certain restaurants. You know they're gonna deliver for a certain price point. There are a lot of places you can spend a lot of money in Miami and have a terrible experience, not great food and poor service, just because they're over paying for poor quality. So, I think that at the high end, there is definitely a lot of overlap, but they don't always, again, they don't always give you the same level of trust. One thing I do wanna differentiate as well is, is you know, you mentioned luxury. In Miami, I've worked in a number of hotels. There is a line between luxury and lifestyle in Miami that is a big divider. - Can you explain? - So if you were, so for example, I worked at Fiena. Fiena, Forbes Five Star Hotel, but it's very much a lifestyle hotel. Art everywhere, splashes of color. You know, they wanna create an entire experience within the property itself. Not the same as the surf club at the Four Seasons, which is very much more buttoned up. It, Four Seasons, of course, one of the greatest luxury brands in the world for hotels. So you can be Forbes Five Star in both levels, but you're also drawing different people. And I think that in general, a lot of people will have the idea, like, oh, we're getting into this hotel, where people are gonna spend this money, but what they spend that money on might be different things. So a lifestyle hotel might be centered around getting you into a club, bottle service, et cetera, you spending money all day at the pool, whereas a luxury hotel is like, okay, yeah, you're gonna pay for a good band, I have an elevated experience, and then you're gonna go and you might have a DRC at night for dinner. So that identity crisis is kind of the nexus of where Miami has been for quite a while. - Oh, that's fascinating. What would be the motivation of consumers to go whether in the luxury or lifestyle hotel? - I think in general, there's the old saying in hotels and restaurants, heads and beds and butts and seats. You can say all you want about trying to chase, not everybody can charge an average of $1,500 a night in a hotel, right? 'Cause during the summer, when things slow down, what are you gonna do? A lot of the hotels will drop their rates, and the clientele is gonna dip precipitously, but there are certain hotels who hold that line, and they say, this is who we are, this is what we are. And that comes from a certain amount of capital and cash aid that not everybody has, because people start to flinch. - And cash flow. - Exactly, that's it. People start to flinch. When the summer tightens up, some of the hotels on Miami Beach that might charge $600 a night during the summer or during the winter, during the summer, might be $150 and you're getting a $20 credit for breakfast in the morning, because they just want people in there. - And you don't have the same audience. - Correct. (gentle music) - Hey listeners, just interrupting the conversation for a few seconds. First, to let you know how grateful we are that you are listening to this episode. Thank you so much. And also to kindly ask you to subscribe to our podcast channel on whatever platform you are listening this episode on, and to give us a cool rating. It's such an easy way to support us, and it really makes all the difference. Thank you so much. Now, back to our conversation. So we've been talking about restaurants and bars and club store and things, but of course there are some very interesting wine shops in Miami, and the one that I visited, following your recommendations are Ms. Omura, who was co-founded by my compatriot, Matthew Yamum. It's a beautiful shop situated in the center of Miami, and Matthew has been instrumental in the development, sorry, of the fine wine scene in Miami, notably thanks to the now famous Friday afternoon sessions. - Yes, it's become quite a hotspot, and I live dangerously close to the store, so you can imagine I often receive texts at 4 p.m. on a Friday with pictures of bottles, so I find myself in there quite a lot, and but really I'm very lucky to have it on my doorstep. It's a wonderful place. - So this Friday you're at Matthew on the afternoon, and happy wine on the evening, okay, we know you're schedule. - I take the ideas into my ass. - But I wanted Matthew to explain how it works, and how he came up with the idea of those Fridays afternoon, because that to me is also an interesting lesson that can inspire other people even outside of Miami. Let's have a listen. - I'm the co-owner of Ms. Omura, it's my business partner who's there, and that's what we do with Peter, to wine lovers, but we also cater to people that are here to learn, they appreciate wine, they don't know much, and we've really created a community here. You come here on Friday in the afternoon, it's pretty cool, 'cause everybody's showing up, they bring their own boule, super busy, and we're just having a good time and making new friends, meeting new people, and I feel like for the industry, it's also really good, because it's a way for consumers and suppliers, and even somebody from other restaurants to meet, in a very laid-back casual set-up where there was no really business, it's more like pleasure, but obviously business happens from people meeting in Charlotte here, so a lot of people, even when I was at the hotel in New York, they would come and they're like, "How come this boule is like 300 in this boule?" It's like 12,000, but it's both pin and war from the R&D, and all like, "How can you have such a big gap?" And honestly, just after boules, after boules, once you're educated and you know and you understand, then it's like, "Okay, now I can put this money "because I know why it's more expensive, "because it's better, because it makes me happier." So a lot of my friends were like, "Prove it at the boule at 3,000 hours, and I'll buy it." Yeah, and if 20 people show up and each bring two boules, it's like, you end up in an even where you're testing 41s for free, just by bringing someone that you already own, and usually anyway, from that, from people show up, or I didn't bring war into their buy, and sometimes the midnight was still here. And for me, that's the time only. I was also aware when I have a new little gem from Burgundy or from Champagne, I would be like, "Hey, by the way, it's at BOMB." And I'll open one and they'll taste and I'll end up sending six, nine, twelve of them. So it generates business anyway. Sometimes we'll take over the room and sometimes we'll end up drinking like 70,000 hours of wine in the afternoon. And some people end up like, "You know what? This 1940, whatever, that I have, that I never knew when I was going to open it. I'm going to bring in some Friday's." So really created this like community movement that I loved because it was just casual, it was not showing up. So again, I think what was really interesting for me listening to Matthew talk and really witnessing the impact that you know, just opening the space and allowing people to bring anything that they wanted and just drink together and talk together and taste together. To me, that's an illustration of the change of mindset that I see operating, but that we could potentially accelerate of before in the wine world. We considered our job like our job is finished when the bottle is sold and slowly but surely, I'd love to see us going to a mindset which is more our job is finished when the bottle is open and, you know, undrunk and shared. And that's really one of those initiatives that are not that costly, just, you know, you're open to put a table in glasses and let people bring, even if it's not your wine. And as as Matthew was saying, not only does it bring community, but it also brings business anyway, so why would you do it? So any initiative that can encourage people to think about that, what type of occasion can I create so that people will have an excuse to open the bottle of wine? It's something that I believe every retailer or, you know, restaurants should have in their head if they don't have that yet. So Sarah, we talked about retail, we've talked about high intensity venues, but there is another impactful route to market in Miami, which is the country clubs and the private member clubs. Can you can you tell us about them and how they work? Yes, absolutely. They're very, very important. So private clubs or country clubs? Yeah, they're very, very big business and really bigger outside of Miami actually, especially in places like Naples and in Palm Beach. So the size and scale of these varies quite a lot, but often they incorporate a residential element. So members of my own house on the club and generally there's a golf course. Sometimes it's more centered around yachting, so members can more bake there. And some of these larger clubs are actually pretty incredible. So I've been to the famous ocean reef club in New Largo. Essentially, it's actually a town. I didn't realise that this sort of institution existed before I moved here. It has a medical centre, it has a school, it even has its own airport. But with these clubs, there's generally an initiation fee to get in and that can go into six figures plus high annual duties. Okay. But most importantly for our purposes is that these clubs will tend to have one or more restaurants and bars and often have a wine store or at least the ability to sell retail. And really, really interestingly because the clubs are owned by members who are paying dues, they don't really need to turn a profit from wine sales, which means very low markups at the bar and at retail. Okay. So what we have is high net worth members accessing good wine at great prices, which makes it of course a very, very powerful sales channel. And during the panel at the next day, Melissa Hemingway, who is the wine director at the Benita Bay Club in Naples, touched on this. And she mentioned that the club sells about a million dollars of wine every year for its members to take home and put in their houses. They're not even including the wine sales at the restaurants and the bars. And a lot of these sales are actually generated at events, so when producers come to visit or learn imported taste things. Yeah, and she was saying, you know, they give me 12 cases and put them in the boot and go home with this. But just for me to black, where do those country clubs usually buy their wines from? Do they have the same supply route that any other actors or? Yeah, so they put wine in the same way as restaurants and retail stores, so from distributors. And they will work with the same importers and distributors, okay. Yeah. So we've been talking about Miami for a fair bit now and I was wondering, is that, I mean, is the same thing in Florida? Like how different and unique is Miami compared to the rest of the states and should wine makers even look at the rest of the state apart from Palm Beach and Fort Lloyd Adele that you've mentioned late earlier? Yeah, so on seasonality, Miami, you know, for sure, experiences seasonality, it's probably not as extreme as places like Naples in a country club that services a lot of snowbirds or parts of Palm Beach. But to your broader question about how Miami fits into the overall picture of Florida, obviously it's the biggest city, it's the biggest market, but it's also the most competitive. Everyone wants to be here. And, you know, there are different trends across the state in terms of wine styles that do well. So if you're, you know, a wine producer and you're coming to Florida, it's really worth a conversation with your importer or your distributor about where you might find opportunities beyond Miami. It's a very big state, as we mentioned, 23 million people. Yeah. Many million of them don't live in Miami. So there's kind of a big world out there to explore beyond the big city. So in the panel at the next day, we asked Andy McNamara, who's the president and founder of Ace Wine and Spirits and also a master's semelayer. And he founded his independent distributor in 2020. And here's what he has to say. Florida's not one market at seven. And when you look at it that way, it's every place he's different. The keys are very different than Miami. Miami is very different than Palm Beach, which is very different than Spacecoach. You can very different than Jacksonville or Lando. You know, Tampa St. Pete Sarasota operating a fairly similar world. And then Naples is a completely different animal. I mean, Naples is the first year I started Naples was 25% of my business. And it was through people like Melissa, where country clubs and being able to get some retail sales through country clubs to high network individuals. That's a really good business model for us. And so to me, Miami is still driven Latin culture. It's tourist driven. Everybody wants to come to Miami. So there's a broad mix of things. Between different museums of different restaurants and different places, you can have anything from being focused on Burgundy to being entirely focused on Argentina and Chile to having a fully wine program that only does Australia. So that's kind of Miami is this amalgam of everything around the world. When you get north of here in Palm Beach and up into Europe Beach, you're seeing more interest in French, Italian, more imported wines, high end iconic California things. People want to be the first to know so they can hold it over their friends. And it's the truth. I mean, that's wine is a giant, why is it giant contest that I know more than you and it's terrible. But that's the way a lot of that operates is they want to be on the ground with new small producers that are doing things that nobody else is doing and making wine in different ways than nobody else is. Orlando is once you get outside of the whole Disney Universal theme park world, Orlando is a really nice homey community with a very strong residential base. Obviously, you still need the convention business. You still need the resort business. You need to tap into that. But that is very much a, that's what's driving the seltzer market, that's what's driving amongst tourists that come to Florida. That's what's driving that. But it's in some ways, people come to Orlando to spend money and they do it in growth and they continue to do so. It's not just the theme park tickets. They come and they buy expensive bottles of wine and restaurants. Tampa, I live there now for eight gosh, almost eight years. And it went from the sleepy rest to the sleepy little town where a date night for us was always at the bar at Bernstakehouse. It's now not having enough time to be able to hit every restaurant that we possibly can and to focus on a tie in high end French, California. It's become like kind of a mini-many in some ways. St.P very hit very cool. And then Naples, as you know, is anything, anything from high end French, high end, called anything that anybody can see or move the only ones that they have that have it? Thanks. That was fascinating. Thanks for asking the question to Andy. But it's actually mentioning two things. I mean, it's mentioning the theme parks in his talk. So I suppose Disney World. And we also talk during the next bow America about the cruise businesses that you know, always forget to think about when I think about routes to market. So what type of opportunity do you think there are presents for wine producers and fine wine producers in particular theme park and cruise lines? Yeah, sure. So the cruise businesses really understand at the moment because most of the purchasing is done in bond, meaning that they aren't impacted by tariffs, which is of course kind of the hot topic right now. But really, it's my understanding that this is kind of a volume game to service drinks packages on the cruise line. So a friend who is a buyer for a cruise line recently told me that his biggest mover is a white zin from doubt, for example. So you know, but for fine wine, you know, there are several cruise lines that are working hard on their premium offerings as well. So there's there's potentially opportunity there. Yeah, I know that some top taskenny wines, not to name any, but they were work very closely with a couple of cruise lines. So they are some spots. Yeah, absolutely. There's premium drinks packages. And there's the opportunity to purchase bottles, and I'd go out on the cruise lines outside of the drinks packages. So for sure, that's an interesting sales channel. So theme parks, I think, is a kind of a segment that people kind of get. Because you just think theme parks, Mickey Mouse, roller caces, et cetera, et cetera. But it's a lot bigger than that. These are huge, huge resorts with big hotels, some, including luxury hotels and resorts attached to them. And there are some interesting wine offerings. So apparently, Disney World is a huge customer of South African wines because of the resorts attached to Animal Kingdom, which was such a fun fact when I first met them. But actually, even within the Disney parks themselves, the wine options are a lot better than you would expect. And I particularly like the French wine shop in Epcot, if you've ever been. OK. Well, another visit for next time. I'm going to come in the next two weeks, next time. So for this last segment of the episode, I'd like to discuss the opportunities and the obstacles that we are seeing ahead for Miami and Florida, because we understand that it's a very hot market now, but I'd like to project a bit in the future. I mean, should we bet on Miami to save the wine world or help with the drops in sales that we can see in other parts of the world? So I've asked this question to two tops, so I'm really here. So first, we'll hear from Zach Gosar again, we've already heard from him earlier in this episode. And then we'll go straight to Amanda Frager, who's the director of beverage and social media at the Genuine Hospitality Group. What's your biggest issues at the moment, like what keeps you awake at night? What's your biggest concern in your role? I think in general, working for restaurants and groups that don't value beverage. In Miami, it's a fight. Battling for margins, and I recently worked for a group where they wanted you to have an average of almost a five times markup on wine, and that's crazy. Like, you can get away with that if you're the hottest restaurants in Miami, but it's also, again-- You're probably not going to be the hottest restaurant if you have a totally stupid politics on that. Yeah, yeah. Well, what that's going to do is steer people to spirits because they're going to be like, you know what? I know what-- I'm just going to have a cocktail tonight. I'll have a glass of wine, and they're not going to spend that money on that. But restaurants don't see-- like, those numbers aren't going to necessarily roll into their view until you've already lost that segment. So it's hard to chase that. What's-- refers question like, what excites you in the morning? What are you excited the most about, either in your job or about the wine seen in Miami? Well, as you said, more and more every day, we have people coming to the market that have never come before. You have the greatest wine makers, and the greatest wine marketers in the world clamoring to get in the market because they realize how exciting it is. And we have an opportunity, and I think a responsibility in Miami to honor that. I love what I do. I love talking to tables every day. I love educating my staff. That being said, sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall because you have people that defer to a tequila drink or a vodka drink, or servers that, no matter how many times you tell them the three primary varieties in champagne, and you ask them a question, they'll say, "Cabrite Sauvignon." And I just-- I'm like, what am I doing? It gets crazy. It's recruiting talent in a show for you. It really is. And you can have every single pre-service, you can harp on different things. But listen, in the best restaurants in Miami, you have servers that are making more money than general managers. You can have servers in fine dining restaurants that are making $140,000 pre-tax. And meanwhile, the managers that are taking care of them and holding them accountable might be making $70,000 or $80,000. And this gets very complicated with the tip structure here. But it's crazy to me that you have people who have-- in some cases, the least amount of knowledge and a restaurant that are handling the guests first and foremost. And I'm trying to dive in and give the greatest experience possible. And all servers want to do is they're looking at dollar signs. What do you mean you only sold them $120? No, no, no. $120 bottle now might end up being-- Yeah. --this kid's 25 years old. But because they won the tip. Yeah, again, they're not thinking that-- because they might not be in that restaurant. There's a very transient quality to the employees in Miami. So you have people come here for a year, two years, and then they go back home, or they move on. They might be college kids. What have you? So to them, they don't care about cultivating. They don't care about the overall culture. What's the biggest issue obstacle, or what keeps you awake at night in your job? That's the most difficult part of your job. I think the most typical part-- and probably you see it nationwide-- is just the lowering margins when it comes to running restaurants. And the toughest part is when it comes to running a restaurant, especially for me as a director of beverage, what I do is one of the most profitable parts of the restaurant. So they're looking at me and saying, OK, we got to keep tightening up, because these margins are getting smaller, rents getting more expensive, labor is getting more expensive. Things like minimum wage for the state has gone up every year. And with that, again, just more and more costs. And they look at me to say, OK, Amanda, we got to get creative. How can beverage become more profitable? And for me, my challenge is, how can we maintain profitability? Keep the wine list exciting, but also not alienate people with-- And deliver quality. So that someone can still come in and buy a $45 bottle of wine, which we have on the list, and feel good about it. Don't feel like we're trying to just take on for every penny. How do you wish to see the Miami wine scene, and how can the producers support that? I'd love to see the Miami wine scene develop more with more sommeliers in the forefront. There are definitely a lot of wine buyers and people doing multiple jobs, or what we call "sommagers, a somm manager." So I would love to see Miami lean in more into wine, hire people that are really a lot more focused into wine that can spend more time and not have as many responsibilities. And so how can the wine producers, for example, get support at all the rest of the wine models who support that? How can that be part of a brand strategy in terms of entering the Miami market? I think what the brand strategy is making sure that they are aware that a lot of sommeliers and wine buyers in Miami have are wearing multiple hats. And their goal is to have a great wine list. They want to have something-- everyone wants to always have a great wine list. Show up and chill. Show up? Yeah. But also when you are a wine brand and you're visiting Miami, just remember that that person might have a financial meeting right after they might need a train or a server. They might have to post a schedule. Their next job is probably not something I related. So be concise, be brief, read the person, see how much time they have, meet them on their time. And I think they're going to see that they will get more out of it than trying to do a 45-minute meeting for two wines. And then lastly, tech sheets. I really want tech sheets to get better. In the center, I think it's great to have a lot of the technical parts. Great. Give me tasting notes. But give me something that I would learn if I was there. I want something so that-- Give me a trip to Italy to your vineyard. Yes. Tell me something that if I spent the day with you, I would write and come running back to my staff and being like, oh my god, you have to imagine how close this is to this river, the things like that. So I've also asked Matthew Yamun to share his thoughts on the monster heads and what he thought about. What he was thinking about Miami in the upcoming months. I think Skye's the limit. Like, I'm very optimistic with no matter what's happening with the tariffs and the prices and everything. We'll always find a way. But maybe less people drink. But I'm convinced that we can still keep it high. Not that I'm going to open another location or two around here. I don't think it would be worth it. I think having this flagship is cool. And we can deliver anywhere in Florida and even across the state's borders. So we're good with one. But I'm very optimistic. A lot of people are scared. A lot of people are asking questions. Hey, what do you-- I'm a positive person. I'm not-- you know, we'll figure it out. People will always keep drinking anyway. And we're still in a segment of the world. I mean, Miami is like a bubble in the middle of the hole. Like where my enter a recession and in many crises. So Sarah, as a conclusion, what's your take on all of this? What would you say are the biggest challenges and opportunities of the Florida wine scenes and, of course, how should the fine wine stakeholders address that? And I'm thinking individuals take coldos and brands, but also general bodies, because I know they have a big representation too in Miami. Yeah. - Yeah, they do, they do. And we could definitely have an entire portfolio from this. (laughs) Maybe there's a party. But the main thing is just to be realistic. Yes, Ford has had an exciting few years and this is very much a serious market for wine. But it's definitely pulled back since 2020 and 2021. And people are a little more cautious now. And at the same time, the market is wildly competitive. You know, as we said, everyone's, everyone wants to be here. So really kind of the advice that I'd give is the same I'd give to someone approaching any market. Really get to know it. Listen, understand the rhythm of how it works and how to approach it, which as we've kind of discussed might be a little different in Florida more than in other places. And Amanda touched on this when she talked about, you know, not needing a 45 minute meeting to taste two wines. Many people in the trade here are hungry to learn, produce great wine, this, meet interesting people, and so on. But they're also really stretched. So you do have to be realistic about their time. Yeah. And look, so I work a lot in the events and marketing space. And I'm really trying to shift clients that I work away, that I work with away from unicrotional wine lunches, for example. Lunch is going to be really nice. And the invites are very generous. But a lot of people just don't have three hours to spend at lunch, particularly in the middle of season. Plus, time's set in that famous Miami traffic. So if you're going to do something like that, you have to make it really special. Now, I'm having a lot more success with flexible formats that create engagement that don't tie anyone down for hours at a time. So just really think about how you're approaching the market. And then I would say, you know, if you're running a bigger event, something like a walk around tasting or a masterclass, do your research on venues. Miami's a big city with, I keep saying this, terrible traffic. And make sure you communicate the uniqueness of the topic clearly. And also very different vibes, again, from one neighborhood to the other. The venue don't communicate the same thing. It's a bit like East London and West London that will give you a totally different positioning. So when's the best time for people to come and visit the city and try to develop their branding? This I kind of go back and forth on this all of the time, because on one hand, season is a good time to get sales and placements, because that's when people are obviously selling wine. But equally, it's whenever one's really busy, so they might not have time to spend with you. Whereas I think if you're building your brand coming in summer can be effective, because people are less busy and more willing to spend time with you, but at the same time, you might not get an order straight away. What I would 100% make advice that you do is just try to avoid these big events that are happening in the city. Things like Miami Art Week at the start of December, just off. I keep saying this, but traffic. Everyone's going to just think about Miami and traffic. But in Art Week, it is completely crazy. I mean, you just don't want to come during that week, because the traffic is a nightmare, and all the restaurants are just completely busy. And then there's other big events like when James Suckling comes to town, and there's hundreds of producers here all trying to meet the same 30 to 50 buyers. So just kind of look those things up and avoid them. You know, really important, actually. And oh, and there's the FIFA World Cup. World Cup? Well, that's really important. So that's predicted to bring about 14 million tourists to Florida in 2026. And the interesting thing is it's happening in the summer. So typically, you know, time, if you are, when we would be quite quiet. And even though not all, obviously, all of the games are in Florida, it's expected that a lot of visitors will base out of here in Miami, in particular, because of the airport, so that they can fly easily to Mexico, to Georgia, et cetera. So that's, you know, we're wondering whether we're going to get as much fallacies in in 2026, which obviously is great news if it doesn't quite and down all day. And any, any final words on the Miami life? I guess just, you know, if you're coming here, have some fun, you know, it's not all that. Go to the beach, cycle, long-ation drive. I know you did that when you came there, pulling high back on "Kee the Skate" and it's beautiful. Visit a clubster on and get a champagne parade. We're going to do that. I'll definitely do that next time. You know, auto champagne parade, if you have a company credit card. But go to happen one on Kaya Oceo and dance in a Congolai and salsa at the ball and chain. I don't know. Miami's great. Just, um, beware. Beware of the traffic. [LAUGHTER] OK, thank you so much. Sorry. It was great having you back. And I'll definitely come back next year. So I'll see you very soon. Great. See you soon. Thank you, Pauline. Thank you for listening to this episode of "A We Need Global" in Conversation. "A We Need Global" is just think tank dedicated to the future of fine wine. And when we're not podcasting, we are publishing reports, white papers, articles, and marketing sites. So if you are interested in the global conversation around fine wine and what the future holds in terms of adoption, distribution, and consumption, add over to our website, www.rene.global. That's A-R-E-N-I, and subscribe to our newsletter. All the links are in the show notes. Because whether you are producing or selling fine wine, you need to know what's happening in the world so you can make informed decisions. Until next time, cheers.