Mexico’s ‘little old lady killer’

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of your Dead To Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith-Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Goulton and the racist, discredited pseudo-science of Eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to your Dead To Me, wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye. A global campaign of cyber attacks. This is what's known as the Conti ransomware. But these are no ordinary hackers. They're a successful business. We can bring them down to five million. But for their victims, it's an act of war. That causes unbelievable chaos. And puts a target on the hackers' backs. We were able to uncover that these coders were reporting to work. I'm Jeff White and this is CyberHack Season 4, The Conti Files. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Nothing personal. Just business. (Music) Hello and welcome to Witness History from the BBC World Service. If you're already a regular listener, you can skip ahead a bit to get to today's story. But if you're new here, welcome along. Whether daily podcast that takes you back to moments from history with the people who are there. Episodes are just nine minutes long, so if that sounds like something that should be part of your daily listening, make sure you subscribe and turn on your push notifications for wherever you get your BBC podcasts, so you never miss an episode. Today we're going to Mexico and the disturbing story of the former female wrestler who became the country's most prolific serial killer. In 2021, Mike Lanchin spoke to the neuropsychologist, who was asked to find out why she had committed her crimes. On March 31, 2008, a court in Mexico City convicted Juan Abarassa for the killing of at least 11 elderly women over a period of eight years. She was sentenced to more than 700 years in jail. But what drove her to carry out such shocking crimes? I'd been speaking to someone who spent hours interviewing the woman known as the Little Old Lady Killer, or Mataví Hitas. You check the eyes and you can see the soul of the person, or you can try to understand the soul. But her eyes were really like seeing through you. A penetrating stare. Right. I was afraid a little bit, and she was sitting in front of me and I was trying to be nice, and she was trying to be nice with me. But behind both of us is what are you thinking and who are you? It was like a gain of power. A gain of power. Right. That's Dr. Fegeostrosky. She had the unenviable task of trying to delve into the mind of the 48-year-old form of professional wrestler, Juan Abarassa, to try to work out just what to turn her into a serial killer. I'm a neuropsychologist and a scientist, and I want to know the brain-behaved relationship. So I don't think that Juan, I just wake up in the morning and said, "Oh, I'm bored. What I'm going to do today, and I'm going to just go and kill all ladies." This is a process that how she was raised, and there are many causes while you do violent behavior. You could have some brain abnormalities that if we find out that could help to treat her. Do you think you ever got to really know her doctor? No, I think I need to. I knew one important part of her, but I think that a lot of things I didn't find out. It was back in 2005 that Dr. Ostrosky had first got a call from Mexico City's mayor. There'd been a series of murders of elderly women in the capital dating back seven years. All had been killed in a similar fashion in their homes. The mayor wanted to know if Dr. Ostrosky thought that there might be a link between the cases. Could there be a serial killer at large? There was a pattern. They were all the age. They live alone. They were choked with cords, and they didn't find that the door was fours. So somebody let the person who was doing that in. The police were strabling for leads. One witness said they'd seen a large woman leaving one of the murder scenes. Another thought they'd spotted two people. It was all quite haphazard. What did you think, Dr? Did you think they were going down the wrong road? Well, they were trying. You know, we were lost. They were trying. They were functioning according to the information that they have from witnesses. I was lost also. By late 2005, there were now more than a dozen unsolved murders of elderly women in the capital, and still no sign of an arrest. Then in January 2006, the police got a lucky breakthrough. A suspect was caught fleeing the home of an 82-year-old woman who'd been strangled with a stethoscope. The suspect was identified as the former female wrestler, Hwana Barassa, known in fighting circles as Ladama del Silencio, the Lady of Silence. Dr. Ostroski was out of town at a wedding. She rushed back to the capital and went straight to the jail. I sent me an office where I can interview her in an open space. I wasn't afraid a little bit. And what did she look like? What was your first impression of her? She was a big woman. She has like the hair was short, but it was painted red. And when you sat down with her on that first day, how did you start the conversation? I said, "Hi, I'm Dr. Ostroski, and I'm here to talk to you." So that's how we start to talk. And I said, "Well, you are here because they said that you killed somebody." And at that moment, she said, "Yes, yes, I killed that woman." And then I said, "Oh, that's interesting." I said, "Well, so is it bad that what you did, I want to see her sense of it's wrong or right what you're doing." And she said, "Oh, yes, yes, it's bad." And I said, "Why is it bad?" She said, "Because nobody has a right to take the life of another one." What did that tell you about her? It's like what I knew about the mind of a psychopath. You know, you know what's right or wrong, but that doesn't inform you emotionally that doesn't guide your behavior. That first day, the two women spent several hours together, during which time, Barassa admitted to two other murders, though she later retracted the confession. From then on, Dr. Ostroski began visiting her every day, asking her questions about other murders, about her family, about her childhood. You know, she just like sort of smile a little bit when she was telling me her family history, but there was not emotion. She was really detached and really cold. She once said, "You know, I like you because you are really bossy and you are tough like me, so I like you." And I said, "Well, I like you also, Hwana, so thank you." And did you like her, Doctor? I did, I did like her. And Barassa, for her part, seemed to trust Dr. Ostroski. She told the doctor how her alcoholic and abusive mother had given her away to a man in exchange for drink. The man got Barassa pregnant, although she was still only 13 years old. She was sent back to live with her mother, and then had to look after her younger siblings, as well as her own baby. Did you ask her whether she hated her mother? Oh, yes. And what did she say? She said, "Yes. I hate her. She was terrible. If the only good figure in my life was my stepfather." That must have affected you having to listen to all her to everything she was telling you. Oh, of course. I couldn't sleep. They spent almost two weeks together. Doctor Ostroski visiting her in jail most days. But the trust that she'd built up with Barassa suddenly disappeared. Doctor Ostroski had gone to see Barassa's half sister and daughter without telling her, and when she saw her the next day, Barassa was furious and told her never to come back. Two years later in the spring of 2008, Wano Barassa was found guilty on 11 separate counts of murder and sentenced to 759 years in jail. In her report, Doctor Ostroski concluded that the abuse suffered by Wano Barassa at the hands of her mother had most likely led her to commit the murders. Doctor Ostroski also discovered that Barassa's brain had an overactive frontal lobe, another possible reason for her violent behaviour. So, do you think it actually made any difference being able to say why she might have committed those murders? Well, it doesn't change anything, but it just helps to understand what is happening in the brain and in the behavior of people who suffer, abuse when they are small and how these genesis of killing arise. Because that's what I'm doing now. I work on prevention programs. If you just put the Kwanai in the jail or people like her, that's not the way that society will function. Dr. Ostroski never went to see Hwanabarasa again. And she doubts she ever will. Hwanabarasa remains in jail in Mexico. She's 68 and is likely to spend the rest of her life in prison. Dr. Fege Ostroski was speaking to Mike Lanchin in 2021 from Mexico City for witness history. Thanks for listening. If you found this interesting, then there are some others in our archive that you might like to listen to, including the woman who uncovered the identity of the unabomber in the 1990s, or learn about the 1968 Mexico City massacre, where armed forces open fire on student protesters. You can find those episodes in the witness history feed, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. A moment in time captured by what they heard. I heard some people make your phone call. Okay, which one way would you like a T-Dermot? What they saw. I put my head down. I saw the movie of my life. So I'm going through my head. What they smelt. I still remember the smell of the fresh fish. And I completely lost my appetite. Moments captured which last for a lifetime. Scientists have made the atomic bomb. That sort of flash set on fire the bird, and they all fell down without their feathered on. The way was clear for Hitler to realize all his demonic plans. Stories from people with first hand accounts of events that have shaped our world. At the end, Kissinger called me and was office, and he said, "You did a good job. I left the office with tourism hours." She called me and told me, "I'm doing studio 54." She had already become a star in Paris. She came back a superstar. Listen now. Search for witness history wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Every episode I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad, and the Odyssey. And then we'll be learning about Francis Goulton, and the racist, discredited pseudoscience of Eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrot. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to Your Dead To Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye!