Speaker 1I will say this though. The hoop that you have to jump through is a lot wider than you think, I would say, is we think that it's, I thought that we're coming back into recovery and doing it all again. I thought that it was this mountain uphill in the snow with booby traps and rain and that's what kept me out there for so long in my relapse is like, it's too much work to get back and it's really not, it's not, it's, it's a lot easier than you think it is, but you have to be willing to take that first step. And then when things crop up, all those emotions that you've been burying down for so long to keep going through them, like in spite of them, right? Yeah. Because when you numb yourself for so long, the shame comes back 30 times, right? I remember in this third treatment center that I was in, my wife dropped me off. I was a shell of a human. I remember I wasn't even like taking in information. I was just so tired. And, and strung out the first night I was there. It was the first night in the treatment center. I had like a panic attack from anxiety because I hadn't used for, I had detox for four days before that. So there was like the fifth day, the first thought in my head was my wife, you know, died on the way home. My mom died on the, like, I wouldn't know I'm in a treatment center. How am I? And so all these things started like piling up and spinning in my head. Yeah. A long-winded answer to that question is whenever you're going through it, you have to talk about it. That's, that's the hardest part is whatever you're going through, you have to talk about it. Hi there. Welcome back or welcome to recovering out loud podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and addiction. I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out for help. Send me a message on all social media platforms at recovering out loud pod, or. By email at recovering out loud, [email protected]. You are no longer alone. Thank you so much for coming, Kate. I appreciate it. Um, on this treatment journey. Um. I'm learning a lot about treatment centers in Canada. I know I was mentioning to you, I've been to three. Um, I really like what you said though, about, you know, before we started recording here that, uh, there's a lot of people don't know what to look for in treatment centers, right. When they're going for their loved ones or even for themselves. Um, I know specifically when I was going to rehab the first time, I didn't really, I didn't want to go at all. So I didn't, I didn't care if it was good or bad or whatever. Yeah. I was in a place where I just, I knew I had a problem with cocaine. And I knew I couldn't stop on my own. And I knew that my parents were, gave me an ultimatum essentially. Right. And it, and I was 23 years old. It saved my life. Um, I look back and, you know, although it wasn't an amazingly comfortable vacation, like experience it in a lot of ways, I learned a lot of tools early on that I still use today. Right. So it was overall, it was good experience, but I found that I had to come to a place where I was like, okay, maybe I'm wrong about this, this, like this recovering thing, this answer to my drug problem. Maybe I'm wrong. And maybe all these addiction professionals around me who have been to school have had lived experience. Maybe they got something, maybe they're onto something here. Right. And I always try to tell people now when I, when they're picking a treatment center, it's like, when you do end up going to one, the most important thing that I ever did was listen to what they say. Right. If they're recommending something, it's not because they want to make money off of you. Most of the time they know what they're talking about. The good ones. So, um, why don't you start us off? Tell us a little bit about yourself, um, and what you do for CATC. Speaker 2Okay. Um, a little bit about myself. Uh, so my background is I started my early career in criminology. I have a degree in criminology and, uh, I thought that's what I wanted to do at the time. I started in the correctional service. So I worked in the correctional setting, uh, really early, really early on, like early 20s. And I realized what a hopeless, hopeless, hopeless negative environment it was. So I think from an early age, I knew that there was a specific population or group of folks I wanted to work with. I just was too young and stupid to figure out how I wanted to work with them or what helping could look like. And, um, I landed in the opiate agonist treatment space actually completely by accident. Which is how I came to work at CATC. So, um, I had started on a, a new sort of career path I wanted to certify as an addiction counselor. And I'd gone back to school to do that, but it's really difficult to learn about, um, opiate agonist treatment or methadone is what we had at that time until you, unless you work in it, that you can't take courses or classes. And, um, it's kind of this little niche. Uh, sort of ecosystem. So I got a job at a clinic in Kingston and I thought I'll, I'll go there for three or six months while I'm going back to school and get in and learn everything I can, and then I'll get out and I'll take this. And hopefully that experience will serve me if I'm working with clients who are on methadone. And I never left. Um, cause I was so smitten with, um, the space. I, I really, really loved the, the course. The clients and, uh, their resilience. That's the thing for me that is just so crazy about working in treatment, recovery, harm reduction, whatever word or space people want to use or work in the resilience of people is just so inspiring. And at CETC, I've played a number of roles. So I've been director of operations, I've been direct to a clinical services, right now I'm in a strategic partnership role. Um, and I like it, I love it. I get to connect with people all over Ontario, but I'm based out of a clinic. So when I work at home, I work in a clinic because I think it's important to not get too far away from the people that you're trying to serve, right? Um, it's important that you understand what people are going through, both patients and/or clients, and also the staff that are there to support them. And I think often, I mean, that's the thing that I love the most, but I think often when people are in leadership decisions or making decisions about things, they do it from too far of a distance, you know? That's true with any company.
Speaker 1I mean, managing behind a desk. Yeah. I worked in corporate for a long time and, uh, it's like, how, why are you making this work? You're making this policy change. You've never been in the field a day in your life, right?
Speaker 3Exactly. Anyway, did I even answer your question? Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1Um, and, um, you know, you brought up what the OAT, opiate agonist treatment was called, right? Yeah, yeah. Methadone. Um, can you explain that a little more for people? So, uh, opiate addicts?
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So for people who use opioids for an extended period of time, um, you know, prescription opioids, Percocets, Oxycontin, Hydromorphone, Morphine, that we started as a prescription opioid crisis, right? And it's evolved to become this toxic contaminated illicit drug supply, but the human body, uh, becomes dependent on opioids when you take them over an extended period of time. So what happens when you try to stop is there's a very, very, um, difficult withdrawal syndrome that's associated with it. It looks like a severe, severe flu. It's not normally life-threatening, although I think when people experience acute withdrawal, they wish they, they think they might die and it doesn't, and you can't recover from it quickly. It, it could go on, it could, it can go on for a prolonged period of time. So there's the, the physical aspect to it. And then there's like the depression and the anxiety and, and the things like that, that accompany with it.
Speaker 4Insomnia as well too.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Um, but people, I think, you know, listen, people do white knuckle it. People will, are able to, to go cold turkey. Um, but for folks that have to get up and you might have to parent, you might have to work, you might be going to school, you, you know, people have to get up and live their lives. It can be absolutely impossible to, to mitigate or get through these, this, this withdrawal syndrome. And I think we have to also acknowledge that, um, when people are using opioids, it's often to manage that emotional pain, right? People talk about the euphoria associated with, with opioids and, um, and that's another big piece that, that the medication doesn't actually help with. So the point of taking methadone or Suboxone or buprenorphine, let's call it, um, is to have a safe prescribed long acting opioid. and it removes the withdrawal and it should also help ideally with with cravings if you're not in withdrawal at least you don't have feel like you have to go out and find whether it's a pill or fentanyl or whatever it is or heroin or whatever
Speaker 1yeah exactly xylosine nowadays so dangerous other ones fentanyl it's so dangerous the challenge with
Speaker 2with opioid agonist treatment right now is that fentanyl is so powerful it's so potent it's cut with so many crazy things that these medications, they're still effective, but it's not effective like it was when we were in a prescription opioid crisis. So it's that much harder to engage people in treatment to try to keep them on treatment because it's a struggle or it's just less effective. And I think the other big challenge in this space, so many folks are using polysubstances. So there's no good medication-assisted treatment for stimulants, right? The fentanyl, crystal meth, like the co-occurrence of that, particularly with people who are struggling with housing insecurity, sleeping rough. So even if you can try to treat something, it's not going to be as effective. So I think the other big challenge in this space, someone's opioid use disorder or opioid dependence, I don't have a lot at the time
Speaker 1for stimulants, you know? Yeah. And I, I know I have personal experience with, with the stimulant craving. It's so, yeah, to your point, it's like now I've, you know, I've settled this opioid craving over here. Right. But now I'm depressed. Now I'm, you know, whatever I'm lethargic, tired, hungry, and I know it'll fix that. Right. It's that, that dopamine, that's what I need is dopamine. Yeah. And yeah, that must be really tough. I mean, I never, so I never really, I've done my fair share of, of opioids, but they never really stuck with me. And I'm so thankful for that. I would get really sick like for an entire day after. And I mean, I was buying stuff on the internet. Like I probably had fentanyl in my things. It's a miracle that I'm still alive today. But yeah, I've heard that it's definitely one of the hardest ones to get off of is opioids I mean, it's, the cravings are so physical, right? I mean, with stimulants, there wasn't, at least in my experience, I don't know, it was more of a mental thing. I remember, I remember getting really tired and lethargic and depressed from it, but yeah. What, what does a, like in a perfect world, what does a successful recovery from opioid look like from a medical perspective? Like what, how is it supposed to go? I don't know if it's supposed to go any single way,
Speaker 2but let's just say textbook or magic wand. It never goes like this. A patient or a person would come in and, and be initiated on one of several medications. Ideally it's a, it's a really fulsome discussion with their physician or their practitioner. And it's, it's co-decided, you know, after a full explanation of here, the options here, the pros and cons of both here, all the things you need to know. I think it's important that physicians make their, or prescribers make a recommendation. I mean, that is their area of expertise, but I think it's important that the patient or the client is fully informed and, and able to, you know, make a decision that feels best for them. So the motto used to be in, you know, even a decade ago, start low and go slow. So the stabilization period can be pretty intense. It's, it's actually a lot of work to be on a program. So people have to come in and see their doctor, you know, two or three times a week. And the dose is being, the medication is being titrated up. You want to make sure that someone is at a dose of methadone or buprenorphine that lasts for 24 hours. That's the goal. Let's get you through a whole day with no cravings and no symptoms of withdrawal. And we want to make sure that people are sedated or drowsy, right? People are supposed to feel okay. And that tinkering can take a week to six weeks depending on the person. So you've got this sort of visit appointment burden in the early days. People are going to a pharmacy or clinic every single day to get their medication sometimes. Like it's a commitment. It is no joke. But at some point you achieve a stable dose and that's when people can start, ideally start to do, whatever it's going to, other things they need to do to stop, to start decreasing their drug use and eventually move to abstinence. And then you're just maintained on the medication. And then at some point you would start a taper and people would taper like a long sort of slow, gradual taper off the medication, which I think is what lots of people want to believe in. I think people want to think that there's a life after this program because the drudgery of the program, I think for folks, it's just, it gets so tiresome and old, you know, even at best you're coming in twice a month, you know, maybe once a month, but it's, that's a tough one because if you think about it like a chronic condition, and I'm not on methadone or buprenorphine, so I don't have the personal experience of saying, ah, just stay on it because, you know, no one says, when are you getting off those puffers? When are you getting off that insulin? You know, like that's that analogy. So I think it's just so personal for people that say, I have to, I have, I've done the work. I put the time in. I don't want to do this anymore. I think we, I think people have to support them through that decision and say, you know, these are the things you ought to hear. Please come back if you need to. But I also think we have to give people grace and say, if you want to, if you're, if this keeps you healthy and well, and you want to be on this for a long period of time, do that. Right. I think there's for, for people who do achieve recovery while on an opiate agonist therapy program, there's a lot of pressure from family and friends to like, when are you getting off that? You know? And, I don't think any of us get to tell someone what is best for them. So the, the situation I described isn't always how it goes and that's okay because there are so many harm reduction benefits to being on a program, a medication assisted treatment program, and not everyone moves to abstinence quickly. And some people don't for very long time and some people don't, but they do still get the benefits of, of being on a program. Yeah. Yeah. And towards a goal, right? I mean,
Speaker 1if, if I'm on methadone and I'm not shooting heroin, that's a win, right? Like I, I'm a big, I used to be pretty rigid about the harm reduction thing, just because my experience was I tried harm reduction and it just, it doesn't work for me. I'm an all or nothing guy. I can't do a little bit of anything. Like, I don't know what one is. I've proven that to myself time and time again. So I'm, I'm, that's just me. Right. But if I've come a long way in that, you know, if you're smoking a joint and it's stopping you from drinking, or if you're on methadone and it's stopping you from snorting cocaine or doing meth or shooting, you know, and, and nowadays dying, essentially. Dying. Yeah. That's the big thing, right? Like
Speaker 2more power to you. A hundred percent. And that in, in this era of this toxic drug supply, one of the beauties of opiate agonist treatment is that at minimum people do have some overdose protection and that's just huge, right? So you can, you can at least live through the, the contamination. And you know, that's not to say too, like,
Speaker 1I've, I've, I've been on medications in my life where I thought I was going to be on them for my entire life. And then you come to a place where you're like, this is kind of more of a prison than I, I would like it to be. I feel like a slave to this, right? Like Vyvanse was a example for me. I was on ADHD medication for a long time and I was like, I could, I could do this for the rest of my life. Now I look back and I'm like, there's no way, right. I just to be, just to have to take something every day for me, it was like annoying after a while. And I didn't want to, if I missed the dose, I was freaking out and then I wasn't myself. Right. It's just, it's a horrible place to be.
Speaker 2Yeah. You didn't get to the pharmacy before it closed. My, didn't get my refill. And I think, I think that's the biggest challenge for people on a, on a note program, you know, lots and lots of names that are horrible, but so valid liquid handcuffs, people call them nothing but handcuffs, right? Like it is, and you can understand why people feel that way. So it's hard. It's hard to do. To balance all of these things. But I, I definitely understand why people find the program tough to join, tough to stay, stick with, tough to stay on longterm. And those of us that are providers of the program, you know, there's rules and things you have to follow, but we, I really do believe collectively we have to do better to make it easier for folks, more accessible for folks. And I don't mean accessible. I think there's tons and tons of things that we have to do to make it easier for folks. And I don't mean accessible. I think there's tons and tons of access actually, but I'm talking about true accessibility in the sense of it, it's accessible from a daily life perspective. Do you understand what I mean by that?
Speaker 1Can you explain that a little more? Yeah.
Speaker 2If you think about, I think there's a lot of narratives in Ontario about, or even in Canada, about more access to treatment. We need more access to treatment, whatever treatment looks like. Especially in Southern Ontario, it's not like this in Northern or rural Ontario, but there's, you can go to any pharmacy almost and see a doctor to get on methadone or buprenorphine. So there's an accessibility in this, in the sense of the offering is out there. But once you're on it, accessing it is a pain in the ass. Do you see what I mean? Eight to four hours, you know, those classic healthcare hours where we all have to take time off work or, um, you got to line up to, right. Got to go in every day. If you're, you know, if, if you, if you're not eligible for carries and to your point, like, what if I miss a dose? What if I can't get there? Like the other anxiety that it can create for people, like all of those things, we have to acknowledge that they exist. And I do think that all of us that are providing these things could, could put a bit of a bit, do better to put a patient or client lens on those things to say what things could we do differently to make it easier.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Instead of going to the alternative, right. Yeah. Which nowadays is like we said a million times, the accidental overdose from fentanyl or xylosine or nitrosine is the other one now that, that is keeps coming up. Um, so when I went to, I went to rehab in the States twice, methadone was, was not a thing there. Like in my, in the treatment centers that I was in all the opiate and there was a lot of opiate addicts, the treatment centers I went to, I think the U S has a bigger problem with opioids, but I mean, there's more people, but they definitely, we, there's an opiate crisis across the board. Right? No doubt about it. I think it's more prevalent in my experience in the treatment centers in the U S um, in terms of, and what I mean by that is, you know, I've been to rehab here and it's kind of a wide variety. There's alcohol, there's weed, there's gambling. When I went to the U S it was a lot of opioid addiction and specifically heroin. Um, they use Suboxone down there almost exclusively. What, why haven't we switched to Suboxone? Do you know, like, what's the differences between the two?
Speaker 2No, it's a really, really good question. Um, we use both, uh, like in Ontario, both are available. So, um, methadone used to be the gold standard Suboxone or buprenorphine didn't exist. Um, it was introduced, I think I want to say 2008 in Ontario. Don't quote me on that. And then it got on the ODB formulary shortly after that. And that's when you actually get to, people get to access it because before, until something goes on the formulary, people have to have great insurance. Or a lot of money.
Speaker 1Could you explain that a little more, the, the formulary? What is it?
Speaker 2Yeah. So people have to, if you go to an OAT program in Ontario, the medical service is part of it. So your physician or nurse practice, like your physician visits, let's say, are covered by OHIP. So it's like going to anything, any sort of healthcare in Ontario, but someone's got to pay for the medication. So you've got options, which is, some people have private insurance through work. Some people work, but they don't have private insurance and those folks have to pay cash for their medications. And then you have the ODB formulary, which is for people who are Ontario works or the Ontario disability program. It's also Trillium drug benefits or OHIP plus, which is like for youth, right? So that's the Ontario, the provincial drug plan essentially. And, and 80% of the people that are on our OAT program access medication coverage through ODB, the ODB formulary. It's, it's huge. It's important. Without that, nobody could access treatment medications. Yeah.
Speaker 1Okay. Interesting. And so it just, cause yeah, I don't meet a lot of people that have, I've been on the Suboxone. It's mostly methadone. Really? Yeah. At least in my, in my circles that I've hung out with. But I guess, so when you go to your doctor, there's an option to do both. Is that kind of?
Speaker 5Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1And the difference, the main difference is Suboxone. This is coming from an addict, not a, not a doctor or anything, but you can get high off methadone. You can't really get high off Suboxone. Is that false or true? False. Okay.
Speaker 2I guess let's define high. If you take enough of anything, you can get high, I guess. So with methadone, taking too much methadone, if you take too much methadone, if your dose is too high, you're going to feel sedated. That's what high is going to look like. It's going to be sedation or drowsiness. Less so with Suboxone cause it's only a partial agonist. So there are two different kinds of molecules. Methadone's a full new agonist and Suboxone or buprenorphine's a partial agonist. So there's a ceiling effect. It's actually has a better safety profile. Very difficult to overcome. Overdose on buprenorphine. So it's a, it's a nicer safety profile for the patient, but it's also a nicer safety profile for public safety. So if it were, if it got into the wrong hands, it's far less likely to have a negative impact if that makes the methadone, cause it's just stronger. Yeah. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1Yeah. Fair enough. And, uh, yeah, I mean, so you mentioned it a little bit, but, um, what do you think that we are doing well within this space right now? And what do you think we could improve on something that you would improve on?
Speaker 2Oh, I don't know. I don't want to say we're not doing anything. Well, I think that there are a lot of, a lot of people, um, trying really hard to find safe evidence-based, but innovative ways to mitigate this fentanyl or this toxic drug supply. And I think it, it's just such a priority for so many clinicians, social workers. I mean, name it, anyone in the helping space is trying to figure out what that looks like. And it's, I think it's just such a priority for so many people. I think it's just such a priority for so many people. I think it's just such a priority for so many people. I think it's just such a priority for so many people. Our systems are so complicated. So, you know, poverty, the housing and homelessness, all of those things are, make it so much more challenging. And I think there's a political narrative right now that is ignoring the evidence and around harm reduction and some of those important things that are really difficult. So what I, what I like right now, or I think is going well is people are aligning to try to protect those things and, and not let them be forgotten and, and try to move this forward. If this were any other disease base, someone would have invented a better medication, right? But nobody cares about this disease base because of the stigma associated with it. What do I wish we would, could do better? Stigma. Right. And we just, it has to go away. It never will, I'm sure. But I think we need to keep raising it in terms of everything to do with substance use and substance use disorders. I don't think we ask for patient or client feedback nearly enough. Going back to that, remember when you and I talked earlier about the people that make decisions and policies and, and what do they know? You know? And, and that's not to say that there aren't lots and lots of really great smart folks working in this space, but I don't think we engage the, the people who want or need or might be interested in the services enough to say, what should we be doing differently here?
Speaker 1Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I'm really focused on too, is one of the things, one of the reasons I'm getting into this field that excites me a lot is that I'll have a perspective that, uh, and, and that's not to say there are a lot of people in the field that have lived experience. But yeah, I agree. It's like, like with any good organization, business company, it has to be a democratic approach, right? Like, what do you think? What do you think? There's, there's, it never goes well if it's like, this is the way it has to be because this is the way we've always been doing it. And I mean, people are dying every day, right? And, uh, it has to, it has to stop. Right. Absolutely. So, um, do you have any, um, like stories or, or cases, specific clients that you, that have kind of stuck around with you over the years? Yeah, so many. Sometimes it's,
Speaker 2I think about of the people I've known when you, when you hear what folks have lived through, um, really, really, really horrible traumatic experiences and yeah, there, there are so many, but just sometimes it's just a feeling i think about during the holidays for example and you know a lot of people who are feeling isolated from friends and family maybe living in poverty maybe not going to be able to see their children if they have children aren't able to provide the christmas that they want there's a lot of pressure you know around that um it can be a really really tough time for folks and those are the folks that come in you know during the holiday season excited and smiling with a with a handmade card or spent their money on a you know a gift for the staff to say thank you for taking care of me and i think wow we don't deserve this and in spite of you know all of the crap life's thrown at you you were trying to be joyous and and think about other people during a time you know does that make sense things like that are just so mind-blowing to me going back to the resilience that people have that's such just it's it's just a reminder every day to be so grateful uh to me and i i hope to everyone else that i've been able to share with you and i hope to everyone else that has the privilege of you know getting to know these folks and and working and supporting these folks we we have this thing in our organization it's it it sounds silly but it it's so meaningful we have a birthday card program and so the goal is to give everyone a a birthday card on their birthday or the day closest to their birthday that we'll see them and people people will come to us and we're going to give them a birthday card and people will come to us and we're going to give them a birthday card and we're going to give them a birthday card and we're going to give them a birthday card and we're going to give them a birthday card and we're going to give them a birthday card and we're going to give them a birthday card and we're going to give them a birthday card and we're going to give them a birthday card people people will call back i'll give someone their birthday card and they'll call back later in that day and say it was the only thing i got they'll be tearful it's the only thing i got and thank you so much that meant so much to me yeah dude we gave them a fucking card
Speaker 1yeah i mean yeah when you're when you're in that world um you feel like nobody is thinking about you right and so when somebody does something small like that it's it's it's the world yeah i get it um as you were talking there i was thinking about um you know before i was got into this space of of uh recovery counseling and addiction counselor i would always ask not always but i would often ask you know you see so many people over like to the uh staff at the rehabs that i was at and the nurses and you see so many tragic stories right and a lot of them don't end well what how do you keep going like what do you keep and i remember they would always say it's like it's that success story that that you know one or two or three or four people that succeed and they get through it and they come off methadone there was a guy in treatment that i was with we became very close he blind tapered off of methadone in treatment and we had this like huge celebration yeah and i remember thinking at the time i was like i didn't understand why it was such a big deal but i had somebody explain to me how how hard it was to get off and i've heard from every opiate addict i've ever talked to they say it's harder to get off methadone than heroin like it's the hardest drug to kick and so for him to do that in treatment and it was a huge deal right absolutely absolutely that's what keeps keeps them going it's those those success stories right yeah yeah i think it's
Speaker 2the same i think too like i worry about the word success do you know what i mean by that because um what is what some people i think feel really really proud of and define as their own personal success and i think that's what i'm really proud of and i think that's what i'm really proud of and i might not be your definition or my definition subjective for sure right and so um i think that's just always an important thing to keep top of mind but um i think it's like what i don't know what keeps different people going for me it's that gratitude piece which is just like a feeling like it's a privilege to get to to know people and how inspiring it is when despite some of the biggest challenges like i don't have a safe place to live and i've you know some bad things have happened and there's all kinds of stress people are still fucking funny yeah like hopefully you know what i mean the ability to laugh and and be humorous in spite of all of the you know that's so inspiring i think um people are still so talented right in the face of using talents like incredible artists and musicians and stuff you know channeling pain and that sort of thing and producing these amazing things you don't want them to produce these things because it was so because they had painful experiences but that's inspiring do you know yeah yeah there's a reason there's a lot of successful again i use
Speaker 1that word tortured artist a lot of yeah exactly yeah exactly anthony kiedis is one that comes to mind from red hot yeah he's uh i don't know if you've ever read his book yeah i haven't is it good it's called scar tissue yeah i know it i read it in rehab yeah and uh like every page i was reading in that book it was like you know and then i got clean and then i went to you know i was doing this and that and i was helping guys and then i relapsed again and it's just like every it happened like 35 times in the book and i'm reading it i'm like this mother like he's so resilient yeah a lot of people don't like that word too but i love it it's
Speaker 3true resilient i know i don't know i like it i'm sorry if people don't like it but it's true i mean
Speaker 1um whenever i uh you know i don't spill my milk on the floor or something and i it throws off my whole day and then i think back to like all the shit that i've been through right it's like what am i i know your point the gratitude thing is like someone cuts me off in traffic and it ruins my whole day and then it's like dude you were homeless for a long time like i had nowhere to live and i couldn't stop using drugs i think you're gonna be okay i know i know is there a better what word
Speaker 3should we use to describe it i don't know i don't know i don't have a better one no it's i will perseverant consistent no not even consistent
Speaker 1maybe but um strong yeah strong strong yeah okay i'll say that when i was in my uh relapse my wife bought me this bracelet that has it says strong on it in i guess morris code oh cool yeah that's so it's funny that you bring that up because uh strong she would always tell me it's um i find that it's just that first step that is the hardest in my experience to get back to get sober to get it's like anything in life you know um i have to there's a lot of help out there right uh i'm wonderful people like you and in catc in your organization but i have to be i have to put my hand out and then when someone puts their hand back it's like there's enough you have to like take their hand right it's i can't tell you how many times people reached out to me when i was in my relapse and it was like i just too ashamed to do it and i was like i'm gonna do it and i'm gonna too embarrassed too sad to to just yeah take that step yeah what do i have to do what can i ask you
Speaker 2a question yeah okay what for you like advice for people working in the field what are the little what little things can help remove feelings of shame because that's that's the big one it is
Speaker 1right that's probably the biggest one and i agree i am a master of feeling that emotion because uh i relapsed after eight years i had eight years clean and sober and so the walk back to recovery after all my friends at the recovery community group that i was at to be able to you know the group that i was at too we had to go around and we celebrate like early sobriety dates and i'll never forget the day i had to raise my hand and say you know anthony alcoholic i have one day sober and i just started bawling my eyes out in front of this room full of men it was a men's group that i was a part of and i'll never forget it there they just came up to me and all hugged me like 16 different guys just came up and said you know so advice yeah it's always a tough one because like we don't do well with advice but when i will say this though the hoop that you have to jump through is a lot wider than you think i would say is we think that it's i i thought that we're coming back into recovery and doing it all again i thought that it was this mountain uphill in the snow with booby traps and rain and yeah that's what kept me out there for so long in my relapse is like it's too much work to to get back and it's really not it's not it's it's a lot easier than you think it is but you have to be willing to take that first step and then when things crop up all those emotions that you've been burying down for so long to keep going through them like it just in spite of them right yeah because when you numb yourself for so long the shame comes back 30 times right i remember in this third treatment center that i was in um my wife dropped me off i was a shell of a human i remember i wasn't even like taking in information i was just so tired and and strung out the first night i was there it was the first night I had like a panic attack from anxiety because Cause I hadn't used for, I had detox for four days before that. So there was like the fifth day, the first thought in my head was my wife, you know, died on the way home. My mom died on like, I wouldn't know I'm in a treatment center. How am I? And so all these things started like piling up and spinning in my head.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1Um, a long winded answer to that question is whenever you have to talk about it, that's, that's the hardest part is whatever you're going through, you have to talk about it. Whenever I work with new guys, this is the hardest thing, but whenever I work with new guys, when, when I told them all the time, when you have a craving, when you want to drink, when you want to do drugs, pick up the phone instead of a drink. Right. Yeah. Who's going to do that? You know, like realistically on paper, that is, sounds like a horrible idea because if I want to drink, I'm going to drink. Right. Like it's, and I remember I used to laugh when, when, uh, my sponsor, he used to tell me that early on, but it worked. Like I started to do it. I started to, when I, even the littlest inkling of, oh, I thought about cocaine today. I got to tell, I got to, I got to get this out because it's going to eat me alive. Right. So with regards to shame, it's, it's usually secrets keep us sick. We're only as sick as our C as our secrets is a common one that I hear. Yeah. Anytime I had a secret, I relapsed. It was, it was only a matter of time because one secret leads into more lies and then you're spinning up this whole story. And then you're not telling the truth about anything. Right.
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. I don't know if that answered it, but it did.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah. This is a tough one, right? Well, it's a hard question.
Speaker 2It's a hard question. Cause I think that's, I think it, that's a, that's a big challenge. And I don't know that there's just one answer, but when, when someone is isolating because of that shame, you know what I mean? How, what little. Um, ins or we, you know, how, how can you kind of get, I think that's a tough one for, for folks, you know, I think it's particularly hard for friends and family, you know?
Speaker 1I absolutely. Yeah. I'm just thinking about, um, because yeah, you asked me about to, from the, to the, to social worker or advice to somebody helping someone.
Speaker 5Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1And I just realized that I answered it from an addict perspective, but. Yeah.
Speaker 5It's kind of what I wanted you to do.
Speaker 1Oh, okay. Great. Because yeah, it's like, what can you do, but what can you do when to help sort of level out the shame from, from an addict, right? Yeah. It's like the, another way to put it.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 1You can't be judgmental. I would say the best thing my wife ever did was whenever I told her I relapsed or whenever I told her I was having a rough day there at no point in time was she like, are you fucking kidding me? What's wrong with you? Yeah. You know, what will happen if you use, like, there was no, there was none of that language. And so it opened up a safe space for me to share going forward.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1So that would be my answer is like, we have to create a nonjudgmental safe environment where it's like, you can tell me anything and the worst I'm going to do is, is laugh at it. That's like the worst I'm going to do because it's funny. It's funny that you're having thoughts about using a drug that almost killed you. It's kind of funny. Right. But I'm not going to judge you for it. Yes. We're going to laugh at it together and realize that, you know, I'm an addict and these thoughts are going to come up. It's, it's normal. It's totally normal to be thinking about drugs when you're not using drugs. Yeah. That's what you've been doing your whole life. Yeah.
Speaker 2I thought that you raised a good point because I think, I think some people, when people are working in the space, um, you know, whatever the role is, there's this desire to want to fix things and tell people, tell people how they're going to fix things. And I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point.
Speaker 1And I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point.
Speaker 1And I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point.
Speaker 1And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1No comments needed.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1No comments needed. I struggle with that so much. Well, we all do. Most of the time, people just want you to be there.
Speaker 2Yeah. And that you're listening. I know. A lot of people, I think, especially around grief, things like, things to do with grief, people are like, "I don't know what to say. I'm so uncomfortable with grief. I don't know what to say." Don't say anything. You don't have to say anything. You're just holding the space, you know, where, I know that's kind of a thing. I think people don't like to say anymore either. You're literally just listening and being there. That's it. That's all you got to do.
Speaker 1People don't like that? Holding the space?
Speaker 2I've heard people say, "Why do you be, why do you?" Like, what does that mean? I don't like that.
Speaker 1Yeah. Holding space. You're allowing silence. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2You're being comfortable in the uncomfortable. Yeah. But a lot of people aren't comfortable with silence. Yeah. Right? But don't, like, just this need to tell people how to fix things, say stupid things, like, whatever inspiration. Just shut it. That's not needed right now. Exactly.
Speaker 1And to your point, actually. It's like, when I, yeah, if, if you're not doing things this way, now you've failed. Right? That's kind of the way I look at it. Yeah. And it's like, this is the way to get sober and you either do it or you don't. Yeah. Right? I've been guilty of that for sure. It's like telling people this is the way to do it. I think we all have. Right. And yeah, it's like, when I don't meet up to that expectation, now I don't feel, yeah,
Speaker 2I'm like. That's where the, you feel judged. Yeah. Yeah. I failed. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we ask enough either. Like, what do you want to do? And it's like, you should do this instead of, what do you want to do? What do you want to do now? You know? Yeah.
Speaker 1What, what do you think would, I mean, that's why these open-ended motivational interviewing is a great one, right? Like. A hundred percent. What do you think would happen if you went to rehab today? I like that. Like, what do you think, what do you think would happen? Yeah. What's the worst thing that would happen? Exactly. And then it gets people thinking like, yeah, you know, I'd be away for 30 days. I live, hopefully I live to 85. So 30 days. 30 days is probably 0.05, 008% of my life. Yeah. These are all things that I'm saying now, but I laughed at because when I was in treatment for 60 days, it, it felt like an eternity. Yeah. It really did. Yeah. Rehab is not fun. Nobody wants to go to rehab. Actually I've met some people that have had a good experience, like, like they've, they've enjoyed it.
Speaker 2Right. Yeah. I think it, I think it's scary for folks though. Yeah. Yeah. I think what's also scary, I mean, I don't know how you felt about this, but I've, I've had situations in my life, I remember thinking, I don't, I don't know how I'll ever laugh again or have fun again without alcohol or with, you know, without whatever it is. And then I think that just that thinking is, it's let alone going away for 30 days and having to follow some rules and engage with folks you don't maybe didn't, you know, all those things. No problem. Yeah. But just that whole, what, who am I without that? And how will I laugh or be happy or smile or feel good is I think just so terrifying.
Speaker 1The best advice I ever got to that one and like this one actually worked for me every time. It still does. I came into, when I first came into recovery, it was, how am I not going to have a drink on my wedding day? Like, that was my thing. It was like, I'm 23, you're expecting, like, cocaine's a problem, I get it, alcohol now you're telling me? I can't have that either and I might be an alcoholic. That was a huge one to wrap my head around and I find with a lot of drug addicted people, that's a big one to wrap their head around. The best advice I ever got was, dude, just don't drink today, you know, just get to bed sober today and then tomorrow do it again. But don't even think about that, right? Today. And I've, I've often told people this that I've worked with and it's, they, they seem to like it. I use it. It's like, sometimes I got to break up my day. Just don't drink for the next 15 minutes. You know, I tell people sometimes to write down 15 minutes, check, made it to 15 minutes, another 15 minutes. Like that's what I had to, a lot of people have to do that early on.
Speaker 2100%.
Speaker 1Because I can't see past 15 minutes right now. Yeah. I want to do drugs.
Speaker 2That's all I know.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah. You know?
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. So, um, in your opinion, what do you think the people that, that achieve long-term sobriety, so maybe past a year or. Yeah. I'd say probably past a year. Some people would disagree with that, but I think a lot of people relapse in the first year. It's it's common. What do you think works for, what do you think those people do that, that helped them achieve that long-term sobriety?
Speaker 2Oh, listen, I think people, I don't know, I, I think that some people are a little bit more fortunate. They have a, a support system, like, you know, you mentioned your wife and at no point did she ever say, you know, make you feel judged or she wasn't angry, whatever that looks like. I don't know that everyone's that fortunate. Um, so I think that support system is important. I think having to go through this alone, go through those things alone or with the opposite of the support system, because some people are living in a pressure cooker. Throwing rocks and suffering.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Right. Right. You know, I think that's really, really hard. I think it's hard for folks because a lot of the time, and I don't know what your experience was like, but. The change isn't just around the substance and leaving the substance behind. You're leaving a lot of other things behind too, right? That group of friends, that lifestyle, that's a lot of changes. And I think how people's ability to fill those things with other things can be more difficult. I don't even know if I'm answering your question. Do you understand what I mean?
Speaker 1I'm happy that you went on that sort of direction because, yeah, I think support systems and family is probably what I see most. Yeah. And filling your time with passions and hobbies. Yeah. You know what the tricky thing about that is? It takes time to know even what those are. It does. Because your passion for so long was going to the bar and drinking or shooting up or snorting, whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 2And if you did have something you were interested in, you were fucking hungover or whatever to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1You lost complete interest in it. 100%. So it takes time to even get there. To get to that place. Yeah. And then when you get there, it's like, well, what am I going to do? Go for a walk every day? I don't want to do that. Yeah. But that helps me, honestly. Yeah. Just going out in nature. That's one of my passions, right? Doing things. You know, my wife and I, we do a lot of things outside. Yeah. Not as much as we used to. I mean, it's also not as warm. But the ability to just be present in nature, it helps a lot.
Speaker 5Huge. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1Let's end with this. Okay. What would you say to an addiction professional that's just starting out in the field? Or maybe what's the best piece of advice you got?
Speaker 2I don't know that I didn't, I don't want to say I didn't get good professional advice because they did. I had a lot of great teachers. teachers and mentors and clinicians that I've worked with, but, um, I'm going to repeat something I said earlier, the shut up and listen piece is so, I think is so important. So I think for anyone starting out, you know, in whatever space they're looking for it, listen, sometimes it's your job to educate folks or it's your job to teach them new skills or that sort of thing. But I think depending on, you know, who you're working with and in what capacity, just having the ability to, to just listen and not feel this need to always tell people what to do, what their solution is, is really, really important. Does that make sense? I know, I'm sorry, it's not very profound.
Speaker 1I mean, it's true. And I think asking the right questions goes along with that too, because my first thought is I've met a lot of people that are trying to get clean and sober that can't, they don't want to put a sentence together. Right. They're just so in their head that it's like, what am I supposed to do? Just sit with them for an hour. Right. That's my first thought, but maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe they haven't had someone sit with them for an hour ever. Right. So maybe that's what's, you know, get out of your own way and get out of your own head and just into their world. And yeah, I agree. It's like, yeah, we can always ask more questions and open questions. Yeah. The other, I'll say one more thing. And again, it's not very
Speaker 2profound, but don't take anything personally. Right. In, I think probably in every career, but especially in helping fields, people have a tendency to take things personally. Not everyone is at their best, right? If they're, you know, using substances, trying to quit using substances, whatever that newly not using substances, not everyone's at their best no matter what, even if they don't use substances, but, but just not, not taking certain interactions personally, because it's literally not about you. It's never about you. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1Yeah. Robin Williams said, everyone's walking around with, everyone's walking around fighting
Speaker 3a battle you know nothing about. Right. Like everybody. Everybody. Absolutely. It's just good
Speaker 1life advice. Yeah, it's true. It's true. I don't think things personally. If people want to get sober where can they go for, to get in touch with CATC? How does that process, what does that process look
Speaker 2like? We actually have a pretty cool process. So we have a website, CATC, but we have a, like a toll free number. And anyone can call and just ask a question, feel things out. If people don't want to talk on the phone, we can text them back. Some people, some people don't want to talk. Right. Texting is a little bit more comfy. Some people don't even have the ability to, to dial a phone, you know, without a phone plan. But, um, I think the other thing is that if, if you make that call and you're, you're, you want some help with something we can't help you with, we'll point you in the right direction. If that makes sense, we'll, we'll figure it, we'll help you figure it out, you know? So it's just, it's just literally one phone call or one email and we can, we can help people start the conversation in whatever way that's the
Speaker 1most comfortable for them. Yeah. I love it. One of the things that frustrates me the most is when I hear, uh, I don't have money to get sober, right? There's so many free resources in Ontario and Canada. Uh, Ram clinics is one of them just off the line. A hundred percent. So many that are covered. Yeah. You just got to do some more research or to your point, ask, right? Don't be ashamed. Like if you don't have money to do said rehab, said program, whatever, private, anything like that. Yeah. Like a lot of people don't, you know what I mean? I don't have that money. It's like, you're okay, man. Like a lot of people don't have money to go to treatment. Nobody has a rehab fund, but we make it work, right? There's other ways around it. Don't let that hold you back as
Speaker 3well. Yeah. I think the nice thing with like a phone call or email is you can, you can just start
Speaker 2out anonymously, right? You can just sort of like ease into it. If you're feeling like you just want to ask a few questions without saying, hi, my name is so-and-so from, you know, it's just, I work at,
Speaker 3I just have some questions. Don't tell my boss. Yeah, exactly. I love it. Thanks so much, Kate,
Speaker 1for coming down. I appreciate it and look forward to chatting again soon. Thank you.
Speaker 7Thank you. Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content. The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only. This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice, addiction treatment, or therapy. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, please consult the licensed physician, addiction specialist, or mental health professional. You are no longer alone.
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