Messi Ronaldo and the 1930 World Cup Riots | The Beautiful Pod

Hey guys, welcome to the Beautiful Pod, I'm Adam Friedland. We've got a really big episode today, XXL size. First off, I'm going to be joined by Musa Okonkwo from Sadia Podcast, one of the best football podcasts, really smart guy, author, genius. We're going to be talking Messi, Ronaldo, and Mbappe, kind of the three protagonists of football, two of them for the last 20 years, and see, kind of track where they're at right now in this World Cup, and how those storylines relate to one another. And also, I'm going to be joined by Elliot Smith and Clive Palmer from Arsenal Vision Podcast, my two buddies. If you don't like Arsenal, we don't talk about Arsenal, okay? And you people, you think you're bad. We won. Just be nice to us for the summer, okay? Okay, fine. Ah, no, I'm joined by Elliot Smith and Clive Palmer, they're two of my friends. We're going to talk about England. Brazil and the United States, ahead of the knockout stages, kind of a conversation about is tactical football, are we hipsters, and we just thought tactical football was going to be a bigger deal after one and a half games, coach Mike Pochettino, I'm sorry, the main subject that we discussed is, is tactical football going to be as much of a factor as we convinced ourselves and gaslit ourselves into thinking after one and a half USA matches and basically the third quarter of the opening England match. That's right, quarter. You're in America. But guys, before I start, I want to just say something, it's a sincere thing. South Africa qualified for the round of 32, and my parents come from there. My parents left in the early 80s, my dad was called a dangola, blah, blah, blah. I lived there for a bit when I was a kid. It is a country, yes, it's a country that has really great people in it, it also has a lot of problems. One thing that is, I've noticed, like, in my lifetime is the one thing that makes people feel better is sports, and they were left for dead after the Mexico match, the opening match. People are saying it was the worst team in the cup, they eked out a 1-1 against Czechia and we, they kind of shocked the world, they beat South Korea, it's like, it is the one thing, sports is awesome, right? Yeah. Politics sucks. I read a thread on Twitter, someone said, can you be a leftist and root for Team USA? Shut up. The game is on, right? And that's one thing that's like, it crosses communities, it crosses socioeconomic groups like sports, just makes people feel better and brings people together. And I've seen that in South Africa. In 95, I don't know if you guys have seen the film Invictus, directed by Clint Eastwood, the dude. John Ford of American cinema. I guess John Ford is the John Ford of America. That's a stupid thing to say. Anyway, yeah, the 95 World Cup, Rugby World Cup was hosted by South Africa, and there was, the country, right after apartheid ended, Nelson Mandela was elected as president, and the country was very divided, obviously, after apartheid, and rugby was like a symbol of the apartheid regime. Of the Afrikaner excellence, or whatever. They really loved it. They were big boys, some of those boys. And Mandela encouraged the country to get behind the team, so it's our team. But similarly, you might not know this, in 96, in the African Cup of Nations, South African national team, the Bafana Bafana, the football team, they won the African Cup of Nations in 96, after being banned for the apartheid for decades. And from what a lot of people say, had it not been for those two sports tournaments, the country would have fallen apart. And it was at a very pivotal time, where they were getting out of one of their worst periods in history that we've seen. And I think it's just awesome. And it makes me so happy. And I just know that, yeah, I called my dad. But yeah, just fucking, this is what's great about the World Cup. So I just wanted to say that. You can cut all this. The Beautiful Pod is brought to you by FanDuel. This summer, America's number one sportsbook is making it easier than ever to get in on the action across all your favorite sports. Think you've got today's home run hitter picked? Check out FanDuel's HR props, including moon shots and lasers, for a chance at even bigger payouts. Late to start? FanDuel has you covered with all the live betting options. All game long. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today and play your game. Disclaimer, 21 plus select states, 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by eBay Live. Here's how it goes. First, you're just watching eBay Live, seeing some rare finds, not even bidding, just lurking. And then you see a rare rookie card. Go for an absolute steal. A 90s handbag comes up and you have to jump in. Maybe put that, uh, put that rookie card in the handbag. Maybe you lose your first auction. You bid again and win. And that winning feeling, it's such a rush because, you know, everyone else wanted it too. Meanwhile, on eBay Live, you don't just watch the action, you're in it. Download the eBay app to stream and shop live eBay Live things people love. Ladies and gentlemen, Musa Kongwa from Berlin, Germany, host of Sadio Podcast, one of the best podcasts on football that you can listen to. Please check it out with Ryan Hunn, who I had a lovely time meeting at the Emirates. The geezer, Ryan, he saw me smoking a cigarette. He said, I haven't had one in years, but for some reason I want to have one right now. And I was like, that's a good idea. That makes me feel so nice that I can corrupt you. Now he's in rehab for SIGs. Now he's, he's torn his family apart. I'm terribly sorry. If Ryan's family, I'm sorry. It was all his decision. I told him not to. Uh, Moose, how are you doing? How are you enjoying the cup so far? Very well, thanks. Uh, you know what? It's a vibe. It's an absolute vibe. We go through this process. Every time we say it's going to be crap, you know, we see the politics around it. We hear about all the problems and then it starts and we see the whistle and then we're like. I think like this in terms of stories in the first round, it's as good as any, I can remember in recent memory, um, obviously Curaçao, the big story and Cabo Verde, but in terms of the big guns, like we're here to talk about the big guns today, we're talking about, you know, Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi and Kylian Mbappe, you know, in the chasing pack, in the peloton of greats, as you were saying, before we were getting on the conversation, this is the culmination of one of the great stories, right? Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi, Lionel Messi, arguably their fate so intertwined more than any other great duo in major sport and at this World Cup, it feels like Messi is no longer seeking anything or he's seeking, but he doesn't want for anything and Cristiano both seeks something and wants something. Yeah, we've been speaking about it. Um, it's, it is, I've watched some of these goals of Messi scoring and I'm like, I have been so lucky for the last two decades of my life. It has been an honor and a privilege. It's been an honor and a privilege to walk the earth with this gentleman. We shared a planet with him. And, uh, so, but, but narratively speaking, these, these two men, at least in the way that we speak about them, have always been intertwined. And then we see the gentleman that's been referred to as an heir apparent as the heir apparent potentially, I believe, um, that is now 27. So I kind of want to get a status report from you and, and kind of discuss where these two stories are and then kind of by extension where the third story is, because to me, um, I think it's a really interesting story. I think it's a really interesting story. in men's sport, right? person following the person so following in the footsteps of that number 10 and he did it right he did it he he did you can look at what lebron james has had to do chasing jordan but messi did that on a global scale it has arguably never been hard to do what messi's done and we're seeing now the effects of the liberation we began to see it during the last world cup when messi who'd previously been fairly quiet started just going at people in the media like in a way he hadn't done before not through proxies but face to face the way that he's playing now there was a moment actually when he scored the second goal um the other day um against austria yeah and you saw like the smiles and the liberation and the pressure being lifted and i'm like oh my god like we haven't seen him like this before so that's kind of that is kind of frightening for his opposition because at this point he kind of has nothing to lose if argentina go home in the next few rounds yeah it's a disappointment but they're still world champions right so yeah he's done it and that's a frightening proposition a genius with nothing to lose i i think also if you look at the his story which is that he left at 13 he got a lot of shit back home for for leaving and what he effectively needed was madison you know like uh he went to la messi at 13 uh newles blocked him from playing for a year and his his mother and uh siblings had to go back to argentina he was homesick as a young child and that is kind of a central trauma that i think has driven him and also having a pituitary deficiency um and being the smallest kid um and you know being alone and missing missing your grandparents and your family and he still owns the home in rosario that his grandparents no way yeah um i think messi wanted to go home and i think um he was in my opinion it was one of the most just unfair things we've watched is his treatment by argentina continuously telling him that he uh was a disappointment he was finally allowed to go back to rosario basically uh metaphorically um and i think what we saw we obviously we don't know these people messi and ronaldo are the two most famous people in the world arguably right and we don't know them yeah we don't yeah we don't know that so we always like painted messi as this this weirdo alien and what we're seeing is this relaxed messi we're in a what i'm seeing is in in the press conferences where he's like fuck i just played 90 minutes i'm exhausted i'm not yeah we've never seen him talk that way before we've always seen him like uh just really just give the media trained responses kind of look look away into the distance but the reason he was doing that wasn't because of any type of like pop psychological uh diagnosis that we wanted to give him it was because he was under this tremendous pressure uh of being unable to go home right so guarded so guarded yeah in all contexts yeah right now his father is uh apparently in poor health and i think what we're seeing him the first goal uh in the second match the one that's like are we at the camp new i mean it was it was it was barcelona it was vintage barcelona but he's free to just do the thing you love uh the thing he loves which is playing ball like yeah to the highest level with with his friends crucially like yeah rodrigo de pau there's like a running meme on the internet about how rodrigo de pau is always next to his bodyguard yeah when he walks out but you know also like an outstanding footballer there is something about the supporting cast i was watching um some michael jordan stuff just before this and michael jordan's relationship with luke longley and how you know he's a great guy he's a great guy he's a great guy he's a great guy he was really hard on that guy but he said if i had to do the title run again i would always have luke longley in my team and if you look at what michael jordan had in that last run the three people the bulls he had warriors and this argentina team there's something that messi didn't have at certain points they're absolute warriors you can count on them from the back to the front emmy martinez literally up to lautaro who misses some chances but is always there as a support striker if you need him and the pressure of being leo messi or lionel messi crushes most players and you can see this because i look at leo messi's career a bit like it's like somebody like going up to the scene of you know like when i like war of the worlds one of these movies the aliens have attacked and you're going to fight the aliens and on your way to fight the aliens there's basically like trails of wreckage and part of the wreckage are people who basically went over that hill 10 minutes before you did yeah and i feel like messi is like that like trying to fall on the footsteps of maradona the burnt out shirts carcasses of footballers who tried to be the next maradona and it couldn't handle the pressure and messi grew up with that messi grew up with a whole generation of footballers who were meant to be the next great 10 and they couldn't do it and they folded under that pressure it's because because it is too much how do you follow the greatest football of all time yeah the only way to do it is you either get crushed by become even better yeah and that's the thing is like um what we saw was like the fact that he was small um he has this close control it's a matter of the touches that he takes that that is an advantage it's not it's not because it's the lowest he had no margin for error he had no physical advantages other than a spectacular technique and this is the concept of space yeah exactly the anticipation the vision that's all he had right that's all he had yeah yeah yeah when he's looking left to right left to right left to right what he's doing is he's creating a map of the entire pitch in his in his mind he's also doing this thing right now have you seen where he's tracking the referee because he's like i'm gonna find space there just have you not seen have you not seen the game no no it's hilarious in my league the game he plays where the ref is there and he uses the ref as a screen to get past the player he plays it past the guy and the guy's like running after him and the ref is acting as a blocker it's incredible yeah yeah so i i guess just connecting it to these are the two things like his inability to go home and also just like his physical limitations were the two things that actually at the end of the day um yes drove him to win a world cup and are the thing that when you notice he's he's made his first move he's on his third move already like it's because of the way his body's constructed and like uh and his the way that his mind is just uh you can argue the message on full circle you can argue you can argue the message on full circle so he began his career without the physical attributes that would elevate him to his peak and as his physical sense declines he's the teenager again he's not relying on the burst of acceleration so often he's not relying on the physical power but he's still quite strong he's basically back in that kind of primal state where it's back division again so if you see the goal that he scores the pitch is very congested against austria when he gets it he spreads the play he opens it up and all of a sudden this austria defense who are used to defending narrow all of a sudden have to defend loads of space and lose their minds where does messy do he just drops the edge of the box and he's in like so much space everyone could say like why not mark messy but it's it's so much easier to have them done yeah like it's like that scene and you know the dark knight when the joker robs the bank and it's like stop the joker well you can't because he's he's deployed everyone as a decoy and that's what messy does in that movie messy just they keep shooting each other exactly and the bus crashes through the bus crash yeah yeah quite quite literally yeah um so in comparison to ronaldo we're seeing what it is just it is the most it's fascinating thing i've ever seen because we're seeing these two stories that have always been intertwined in completely different places um and what you made a good point to me when we were speaking earlier is and it this also applies with the messy maradona thing maradona came from the slums right and uh messy was relatively middle class i think argentina argentina had a financial uh crisis while he was a kid and that's related to why he had to go to catalonia but like ronaldo also came from extreme poverty what drove him was the fact that like he thought that he could bring his family back together and he could inspire his for his father and his brother to stop killing themselves with drugs um and cristiano ronaldo was like if i get good enough at sports like uh maybe they'll see me right um and in the sense of like messy wanting to go home ronaldo never had a home i think and i think that that's that messy has been able to return home i think we're still seeing ronaldo somewhat lost i think well i i think i mean i always in fairness to cristiano ronaldo of whom i've been critical i think and also in fairness to portuguese people i think he's always had community i think his i think the love that cristiano ronaldo has had from portugal is greater than the love that messy had at periods from oh my god better 1000 i mean he was a god in one place and he was a pariah in the other place well you say yeah right so i think i think there were times and i think that barcelona was a sanctuary from the pressures of argentina i think cristiano ronaldo there was a lot more love there because of where he elevated portugal to since the 1960s in terms of the football right so he took them back to the mountaintop so i think that any criticism of ronaldo from portuguese corners has to be seen in the context of yeah ultimately we criticize this guy now but he's the reason why we're back on the map to this extent and i think actually that is why his his fans and why his teammates are more charitable towards him than maybe some of us have been in terms of some of his performances at this tournament a hundred percent everyone who plays with him says that he's a good guy right like for the most part they say he g's me up like he's he supports people when they they need to rise to the occasion it's not a matter of teammates i think what we're seeing is the tragedy of the situation one of the central tragedies is that messi's framework for view in the world is argentina and maradona i think ronaldo's framework for his career is this rivalry with messi and i think that is something that that is a major incongruity and ronaldo i think questions well clearly he's he's obsessed with me too or you know like clearly he's obsessed with me too and i think that's something that He's looking back at me. Does he care about me? Why doesn't he? care about me why i don't think he cares to the degree no it is i think he doesn't care well it's motivated him to be so good right he's deeply competitive and i do think he cares about this but he doesn't care about it to the same extent and that i think is the problem that is painful like if you're not chasing maradona like messi is chasing other things right that world cup desperate to win it desperate to be i think in that conversation and to have like this kind of pressure off his back the tragedy for cristiano ronaldo i think is that in any other period of time he'd be the undisputed best player in the world in any other and that guy that that guy like it's it's like being a marathon runner and you break the two hour mark and there's a guy who's running it in 140 yeah that's what it's like you're like oh my goodness there's no one that can be quicker than me and then you hear the crowd going wild and then you realize there's someone ahead of you yeah up ahead like out of sight out of sight around the bend because this moment i feel like i feel like messi is out of sight in the most intangible way right and it's not the medals whatever which is what i think cristiano ronaldo would rather it was about it's about the way they talk about messi that's the thing there's one thing about beyond trophies the thing that makes you truly great is when you elevate the status of myth slash legend to the point where put it this way i mean i would say this if aliens were passing by the solar system they would watch messi they would just tune in and be like i'll check that out like because it'd be like where have you been where have you been yeah can i say the tragedy of cristiano ronaldo is this right um cristiano ronaldo does everything i've seen before in football to the highest level possible every technique every touch every skill everything leo messi leonel messi does things i've never seen before that's the difference like he invents the game i everything that cristiano ronaldo has done in football and god knows i'm a united fans i've seen many great moments it's it's it's football performed at the highest level what messi has done is things i did not know were possible within football that's kid a it's like what kind of where's the guitar well you know i bought kid a is a good example because when i bought kid a i was a huge wu-tang fan as i still am and i bought it and i took it back because i didn't understand it and then i bought it again two weeks later and i said you know what maybe it's just something i'm not processing you want to hear and it blew my tiny mind yeah i remember it reconfigured my i had to say yeah i was like where's the guitar where's the drums what what's going on right now i thought this was rock yeah yeah it really just recontextualizes the way you see football and that's what and it ruined it ruined music for me for a couple of years because then i was like oh why is no one else making stuff yeah you know genuinely like that's the tragedy is that you that cristiano if he his his context for the way he views his career is this other gentleman messi was playing contemporarily with him uh and and uh messi's context is this ghost of maradona quite literally maradona passes away in 2020 messi wins his first copa in 2021 you know um like i don't think people make that connection very often and i i think that and but i think ronaldo feels like this guy that he sees at the ball and door you know messi's a shy person messi describes himself as weird he thinks he's weird like if you met messi he'd be like i'm weird i'm kind of quiet i'm shy and like i'm short i'm like i really like i'm really good at sports i bang it i have to go to my job and just bang it in but like uh it's it's i i think i i think i don't think he's weird and the same i don't think kawaii kawaii lenders weird well he describes himself as weird yeah i think he's i think athletes do that to get you to leave him alone because if you think of the type of people look at like his look who he surrounds himself with right those dudes are not weird like his closest mates look at like rodrigo de pau in the argentine team that dude is like out there like i think messi's actually low-key quite a bro but he goes with the kind of sure yeah i'm just i'm just there with my lab coat this guy was hanging out with ronaldinho so much they had to sell him because they were worried he was gonna get by the night how did he not get in trouble he's 18 years old and like that's what i'm saying a weird dude doesn't a weird dude is like she definitely went to the club why didn't we ever find out about the club yeah it's barcelona you know you never find out about the club it's football it's like but it's ronaldinho other people tell us about the club with him i just want to know about him taking the 17 year old and be like listen i'm about to show you some crazy yeah they were like none of that they were like welcome to barcelona yeah you have to sell ronaldinho but he was his first friend too on the first team anyway um just going back to it i think in the same way that his challenges messy challenges one thing that frustrates me is ronaldo has this need where he's like means piers morgan is telling me he's the best player ever you know like it's just like if he just said he's like i'm i'm good you guys all know that but like it sucks i'm playing at the same time as this freaking freak yeah not even i mean in a playful way he's like this sucks i think we would all just be like you're right dude like this good guy i think we would feel for ronaldo i think he has this this need for affirmation which is like clearly like something that he doubts within himself and it's just a waste of his time what hurts us about ronaldo is seeing his insecurity because we want him to just be ronaldo we want him to just be really good at ball it's a matter of him making peace it needs to be said though that this is the first time that he has played in the united states you know since 2014. is that correct that's a reason and then and it's because of uh the sexual assault uh accusation that was settled out of court and you know last year was the first time that he uh returned to the states and he went to a black tie function with uh donald trump uh at the white house and muhammad bin salman and uh you know i think that messi thinks the president is probably just not the right person for ronaldo but he's probably just not the right person for ronaldo on laporte like i think i know no i think messi is like i think messi is extremely smart extremely smart um maybe that's why he doesn't let on yeah he didn't have to yeah he didn't have to go to the white house he didn't have to do that like there's american sports teams that swerved that like he didn't have to be there and he went like i think i think that he was ensuring that he could play in the next world cup and i think that you know you're gonna be wise you're gonna turn over that little uh violent conduct situation i have in the back you know messi has messi has so much sway culturally he's one of the few cultural figures that can say no to an imitation from someone like donald trump and it not affect him at all like he's so powerful like that's the dude that gets a good point hope so i think messi messi does what he wants and i think the characterization of the two of them is i think a little misaligned in terms like messi's not he's not a saint he's not he's just the best footballer most of the time he's the best footballer most of us are ever likely to see i don't think there'll be another footballer better than neo messi in my lifetime i cannot see it right but i don't think that the reason why i refrain from assessing him on a social level is i i just don't know the guy and i think that yeah i think i think he plays into the weird stuff i think he plays into it look from ronaldo's part i cannot vouch for ronaldo as a human being and frankly thank goodness is all i can say to that yeah as a footballer what he should have done in my opinion and this is not my business because i'm not his pr guy but still since we started the conversation the guy should have just quit some type of football whether it was professional football whether it was uh international football and actually just like built an alliance with messi should have reached out should have gone to argentina and like hung out in some of the spots and be like leo do you want to get dinner he literally married an argentinian he should have gone and done the photo ops because he didn't want he didn't want to do that because that was about conceding power right and a lot of these big athletes their egos correct some of them cannot let it go i mean michael jordan has long since retired he can't let the chase go like watching the last dance michael jordan still thinks he's playing basketball yeah he still thinks he's playing basketball he talks about his teammates as if they're about to suit up and he's going to destroy them in the gym so this inability to let go i think is the great tragedy actually there was a year paul simon won the best uh best great uh album at the grammys and he's like i just want to thank stevie wonder for not making an album this year right yeah totally if you just put it that way it'd be awesome he should have been like um roger federer is yeah after he's retired keep going to like novak djokovic's matches turning up having vibes because ultimately like djokovic doesn't get that good without federer messi does messi doesn't get that good without um ronaldo so actually just embrace it yeah just be like bro like it's i like yeah i i wouldn't have almost a thousand goals if it wasn't for this guy's shit out of me i think when you've been locked in that long like god i do have them now i think when you've been locked in that long it's hard to let go of it man it's hard to give up the ring of power it's hard to give it up bringing it back to the of course the heir apparent um and i think that's that is a brilliant point because i i and especially i don't know about with jordan but like especially you were saying like when you when you start in uh when you come from extreme poverty you kind of you can't fully get out right in a lot of ways in your in your mind and i think that that is another central difference we see is that there is this insecurity and there is this insecurity about class that we we can read in uh in cristiano ronaldo we're seeing ronaldo kind of maybe have an adverse effect he has the best fucking midfield in the world behind him right now like i would say in the world cup right now i think so i think so i mean it's a joke actually of a midfield when you read those three names um but we're seeing maybe spain but yeah overall spain's depth i think is is they have the deep spain is the depth yeah yeah uh what i would say having an adverse effect on a very good team around him. Whether or not we're putting too much into that that is to be seen i i that's how i view it i think messy everything he touches artistically uh is elevated i think he he makes pep the best manager of all time he makes uh that midfield behind him is the best midfield of all time he literally fucking uh goes to how did they know the baby was in bob was how did they know literally how did they know everything he touches is blessed right and um at least in a footballing sense uh ronaldo sometimes doesn't does not have that effect a lot of the time around him uh and it's because of uh we can speculate psychologically in a million different ways but with in a practical sense that's what we see um i i watched dembele in this tournament and i know he scored a really nice goal and i watch i i watch the french national team and i i see first of all i see a roster with eight fucking you snipers just just eight assassins and i i saw that i was talking to you before like the uh the last world cup squad was was uh for france in uh four years ago was very open and we saw a six goal final and to shop completely he's like we're going atletico in the euros right um when i looked at this roster prior to the world cup i'm like wow they're gonna have 10 goals a game they're just like it's how are they not gonna have 10 goals a game and what i'm seeing is that they're not seeing is is kind of uh uh it not translating on the pitch and because you see him the most because he's the most dynamic player because he's the best player in the world all right probably uh you you see mbappe kind of have and because you're he leaves a a psg and they win the the champions league two years in a row which is actually fucking crazy and because his last real trophy that he's had is is eight years ago in the in the world cup when he was 19 when he was fucking killing people too it wasn't 19 on the he wasn't uh theo walcott at 15 in the world you know like he was uh that was him and pogba and and you know like uh he he won the world cup there's something weird going on there's something weird going on with killing about there's something strange yeah we haven't seen a genius we haven't seen a world great spend this long in the waiting room , right what i mean by that is where he was winning that world cup on that run with monaco all of that like he was primed to go someone say fast forward from that moment he won in 2018 and say how many ballon d'or has he got maybe like two or three like if you froze football when he scored the fourth goal yeah exactly right exactly like or within 50 you'd be within 50 like if you froze them if you froze football the moment when he scored that fourth goal in 2018 against croatia in the final and say how many ballons will he have uh eight years from now you'd be like two or three he's 19 and he has it right totally he's 19 like what he was on pace to achieve he was on pace to exceed so many things and he hasn't done it quite a club level because for various reasons i would argue primarily because of the clubs he's chosen because i think lewis and ricky wanted to keep him and i think if he had that i think lewis and rick had arrived at psg three years earlier and abapay was a bit more coachable i think it's a different story yeah now where abapay operates now and this is you know again i'm very critical of david shamp but i will say this this man has won two world cups one as a player one as a manager and he won them both by building from the back from a defensive standpoint defensive crouch that is what worked in 98 that is what worked in 2018 right he got a bit loose in 2022 because he had to took off dembele and jura at halftime but fundamentally deschamps can say look being risk averse is what ultimately is most likely to win me things and he's right that's his track record what he has to do the roster doesn't match that would you say he has to set he has to set his midfield free yeah at some point this tournament someone like zaya emery has to be allowed to cook why i don't understand why they're not using him why is it playing 10 listen the greatest managers in football are gamblers right deschamps gambled in the last world cup final taking off jura and dembele at halftime he gambled and it was an incredible shot and it worked it worked in the end it liberated all the right players he has to gamble again because if you look at someone like lewis enrique one of football's great gamblers if he was coaching this france national team i'm pretty sure zaya emery would be starting yeah i'm pretty sure that midfield would have a different composition not i'm not sure exactly what but he would find a way i think lewis enrique has the genius to defend and attack with equal intensity yeah and i think deschamps hasn't got that he hasn't got that there's a third name there which is uh zizou i mean like i i think if zizou's coaching this team could he convince messy to play nine i mean the team would work that way right like of course he could um or sorry messy mbappe sorry i mean could he well quite frankly pep was like play fucking nine you're a winger and just go just go in the middle you know and is that you know i do i do think that in this team you see someone that's best friends with the president and he's he's whatever he's your he's bigger than the club he's bigger than the national team right now kind of put it this way yeah it's so funny he scores his goals from a nine position he scores them from a nine like this is the thing the actual runs look it's psychological i think at a certain point can they get on reed to call him or something just say i did it i don't i went for the left i think i think zidane has the gravitas ancelotti had it yeah i thought he had him playing as a nine it was actually like i think these things um this can work uh yeah it will work for france look i still haven't been moving through the gears they're terrifying he's terrifying and i think that mbappe has realized that his path to greatness to be in that top 10 conversation it might have to come primarily at a country level so i think for him a second world cup becomes exceptionally important actually correct if you want to look at messy winning football in the last world cup i just like like closing the closing the books on on you know all the ghosts um this is what we see is uh this was a youth phenom at claire fontaine um yeah uh mbappe was a was a grown man by the time he was 12 uh and he won football at 19 uh and then and connecting it back to ronaldo ronaldo seems like a person that's terrified of doing he's terrified of what happens after he doesn't he stops doing the one thing he's done his whole life which is i don't know because he's involved in all these he's like a kevin durant figure where he's involved in all these different businesses ventures come on property it's not ball it's not ball but you think business is as cool as the world cup of course not but at the same time i i feel like i feel like cristiano ronaldo has a much bigger hinterland than a michael jordan who always felt like someone who wanted to get in the gym and try and drop 50 on the brunt i feel that is much more a i feel like the only reason ronaldo is still playing football is because messy is still there i think that's and i think i think if messy bounced ronaldo would bounce yeah because i think in his heart i think if he wasn't a footballer he would have made a lot of money he's the type of dude that would have made a lot of money somehow actually i think he's one of those people that would have found something to apply himself to and just made some money somehow he would have been like he would have been a merchant or something i genuinely think he's that kind of i think he has more strings to his bow than just a pure football obsessive um yeah but yeah i mean at the same time you've got the thing that like connected back to his his family story like it is the thing that he used to be seen yeah yeah it's the thing football was the way that he thought that his father would see him he was like please come to you and you dad i uh i you want to come see me at old trafford i i play for sir alex ferguson you know the theater of dreams and he's like ah god i'm your bro i'd rather hang out with your brother do drugs you know in the house you bought us i wouldn't be i don't know if they have the channel of i don't know if they have the channel of your game but we'll try and find it yeah i wouldn't be surprised if he ended up doing something political because oh no we gotta stop that i'm not saying that but i'm saying that for him it's about like making money and being seen yeah i don't think that i don't think that he i don't think that when he leaves football this will be the last that we see of him oh my god if he just cared about football he wouldn't be going to the white house he wouldn't be hanging out with those people he would just be nerdy geeky like oh no he's named after ronald reagan you know that yeah absolutely he might probably probably recognize as well but yeah but look even going to saudi in this like global states person thing statesman thing this guy is like i don't think that football is the last we're going to see of this guy yeah i don't think that at all i i can't imagine it is for good or ill for good or yeah yeah i think that's the end of the world you really just scared me i know that's your boy i know that but that's terrifying it's not also i mean like so but yeah i think if we connect it like um uh we see the beta test of the next generation in mbappe where he is uh it's project mbappe claire fontaine by the time he's 11 years old he's he's next up the entire you know he in the in america i was explaining to you nil like um you become a professional athlete after you get drafted in the league that's how it worked forever and now that uh amateur athletes can get paid in the states uh kids are sponsored and making a ton of money uh by the time they're you know in uh middle school a lot of the time some time um it it changes your celebrity messi had to wait properly to be 18 years old to go to play at the camp new uh ronaldo had a breakthrough at lisbon uh this is a this is a new generation and and quite frankly in the same way as lebron is the beta tester of being a superstar in uh you know an era with twitter and an era with a different relationship with the media for instance like uh uh there you would know there was no twitter during uh jordan jordan would have uh uh them killed you know everyone could no i'm just kidding but like but like uh but no but really uh like uh we thought michael jordan hung out with bugs bunny and uh when he wasn't playing basketball and you know like he was we didn't know anything he was in atlantic city um and that's that's all we found out about that's what we hear about yeah i i think mbappe um yeah i think we we're seeing him a in the waiting room like you're saying but b we're seeing him be the first of this next generation and you know he winning the world cup at 19 i i think to some extent you could be lost in a lot of ways you know yeah yeah yeah yeah it's amazing he wasn't i mean look at mario gertz mario gertz obviously injury issues so we can't criticize him for that but the pressure of being like everyone mario gertzer when he was coming through the ranks in germany was expected to be the next big thing he achieved his footballing destiny at like 21 22. yeah and what that does to you like he scored the world cup winning goal and he's not in the world cup germany squad and it's not weird it's totally normal he's like out of that level of football and like mbappe maybe we don't give enough credit for the fact that like it hasn't crushed him altogether because it should have it should have crushed him yeah yeah and maybe he's just someone that was robbed of a childhood to some extent right like maybe he's like i wouldn't maybe he's a grown-ass man at 11 and he's just like yeah i'd pack my briefcase and go to claire fontaine i will say one of the most i will say the most impressive things i've ever seen is that this man won a lawsuit against an actual nation-state yeah um over his wages and psg i mean that mbappe has handled at his age a level of responsibility that no one fractured have to especially an athlete i mean the thing with and the world cup final when like macron is like clinging to his coattails because he knows that mbappe's like say so he's bleak but that's where the power that's where the power lies i was saying can you imagine being on that team and be like god dude so bleak so bleak he's like oh my god why do you hang out with the president dude put it this way everyone everyone with any kind of sway has been at the last couple of world cup finals because they know that's where the power lies yeah in that room in that space getting a ticket to that final being on that balcony that's where the power is and who's orchestrating the power it's people like messi and mbappe and it sounds ridiculous but that's kind of what it is so that's how you got tickets to the final i wish oh my god i thought you said i thought you said your boy uh johnny you call him johnny johnny infantino maybe ryan's got tickets to the final does infantino does infantino mean baby why doesn't anyone talk about this he will talk about it johnny infants johnny johnny baby oh johnny baby he sounds like a mobster musa have a nice night i it's a pleasure talking to you you're the best that's just mine uh you're a phenomenal guy i really appreciate that before i go i'm on the board of reboot fifa we're trying to launch the biggest ever class action lawsuit against fifa to reform fifa so yeah check it out reboot fifa okay edit point cut that cut that right now edit come on what are you doing security lord wenger i'm sorry lord wenger you're the best thank you bro the beautiful bot is brought to you by fan duel on the biggest stage in the world fan duel is changing the game because sometimes your player gets subbed off and your bet goes with them not anymore with fan duel super sub if your player is subbed out your bet stays in that's right if your player leaves the match your bet continues on with the substitute so you're still in it until the final whistle because in matches like these anything can happen and now your bet can go the distance let there be goals this summer on fan duel visit fanduel.com tafs to get started now disclaimer 21 plus select states or 18 plus dc kentucky wyoming gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in connecticut this episode is brought to you by viore i gotta give viore some credit i i don't they don't make you choose between comfort and looking sharp their core shorts work for basically everything whether you're wearing shorts or shorts they don't make you choose between comfortable working out or just creating the impression that you work out and the stratotec t is so soft that you'll want to take it off only to wash it really good stuff get 20 off your first purchase at viore.com tafs and discover the versatility of your clothing exclusions apply visit the website for full terms and conditions somewhere out there is a chevy truck and the person who drives it well that's a chevy person you probably know one your buddy your sister ones who always show up they're the first to rise the last to leave they always have that little extra something and maybe you've got it too chevrolet together let's drive visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup i'm joined by my buddies clive palmer elliot smith from i think perhaps the most brilliant uh podcast this club specific uh podcast it's called arsenal fan tv uh check it out stop it stop it now then from the arsenal vision podcast it's uh my favorite podcast and i've leveraged my internet micro celebrity to suck up to them become their friends he's not wrong that's exactly what's happening i've been banned from their podcast and now for them i just want to be seen i want to be noticed i've started my own show this is you know this is going out to no one i just am doing a zoom call with uh production people here just so i we can hang out um uh welcome guys how you enjoy the cup it's good it's very interesting seeing the world come together and um seeing that different ways of different communities all enjoy football differently so yeah it's been cool i i'm just glad everybody finally agrees it's called soccer yeah but you don't do that when you talk about with to them i think they call this code switching adam yeah i'm code switching you do code switch you say rose and stuff like that i'm like what the hell is he trying to do shout at patreon my patreon app elliot what are you doing um if he doesn't talk probably i'm not talking to him similar to that right uh you see i'm being bullied for anyone that doesn't know uh you should check out their podcast even if you're not an arsenal supporter uh and uh they run perhaps i think the most brilliant podcast they've i've really learned a lot about the game mostly from clive to be fair yes 100 from clive i just copy what he says and say i miss i miss i it up all the time i'm always like yeah i'm always like anyway um so uh i wanted to do a rundown of just three areas of focus which is primarily it's going to be england brazil and the states uh elliot i know you bought in luckily i didn't buy in i'm a rose ed kind of guy i never believed in them in the first place you got arsenal old i'm sorry it's the hope that kills you it's over okay uh but first i kind of want to introduce you guys to a segment that uh we have on the show it's called the gaffers so uh every week or every episode we uh feature another one we did steve clark we did irv reynard which by the way uh he's lost his diplomatic immunity he has to go back to france to have sex and stuff uh it was great while it lasted irv or herve or whatever yeah he is the kind of guy that like you're on vacation he's in a like he's like just like it's sultrally looking at your girlfriend and he's and you're like what like can you put your penis away like and then he does an incredible dive and it was like oh god that guy was unreal the exact opposite of how people react to calafiori walking the beaches of rio de janeiro right now yeah oh my god well it's winter there but i imagine it's still can you imagine we were on the phone yesterday i was like i just i think i'm in love with him elliot i think i'm actually i think he's beautiful everybody is i want to kiss him all okay anyway so uh this episode of the gaffers let's talk about jesse marsh uh coach of canada what do you guys make of uh marsh i think he's a i think he's a rising star in the in the world of uh coaching and football would you would you agree i think he's a bit more 50 50 than that my friend oh come on that's that's classic uh um i think he's struggling a little bit you know um i think a lot of his systems have been rumbled i'm not sure i'm not i think he's a 50 50 on him i mean i'm not sure the man is a virtuoso i mean i think he was a prodigy um clever are you familiar with benedict arnold do you know who that is i do and i don't i think you are i think you are i think i'm pretty sure you know who benedict arnold is look at him all coy uh benek donald of course was a was an american army officer and uh general george washington's army who was entrusted with the post of uh i believe his uh what was it a west point uh very important post general washington's i entrust you with this and he turned coat he turned coat and he joined the red coats he stabbed us in the back and he broke washington's heart how does that make you feel are you like yes got one over on us yeah congratulations clive you got one okay you and your red coats um is that where eggs benedict come from i believe so yes it does it does yeah it's because uh that was his favorite food and we wanted to honor benedict arnold he's a great guy he's a great guy he's a great guy he's a great guy anyway um so think of uh him as a more successful i would say jesse marsh uh i think uh for those of who don't know uh jesse marsh uh he is uh i guess an american football coach uh who's been described as you know by everyone as a prodigious prodigious talent despite only being 52 he's built quite the resume for himself just five years ago he was coaching the mighty red bull salzburg in the austrian bundesliga and that's a good team and uh july 1st 2021 he moved to rb leipzig uh where he took the bundesliga by storm he amassed a gaudy 38 win percentage before being dismissed december 5th 2021 in what many are calling a july december love affair romance if you will but that wasn't the end of his story from far from it uh next up was the prem uh where he took leeds united to a very brave and respectable 29 win percentage and 17th place in the table obviously the u.s men's national team would be the next logical step for for this precocious 52 year old you over a rising star young baby style talent that you know a mozart if you will uh but but of course what happened and it was tough to watch was that the backwards hillbillies at the american fa instead chose uh this gentleman mauricio pochettino a grizzled 54 year old journeyman with an uneven record uh who took he was able to only manage one champions league final for english football giants tottenham hosper also kind of like think if you guys aren't familiar the kind of the bayern munich of england and he only could take them once to the champions league final uh and then he toiled away in the lowly french league with uh paris saint-germain with coach messi anyway uh so you can't blame jesse marsh for feeling betrayed disrespected i mean it makes absolutely no sense why the the american fa would have hired look at this guy i mean look look he's suffering because uh whatever i mean look at that picture would you entrust your team with that oh anyway uh so we all watched him get stabbed in the back over and over again we all did nothing uh but our friends in the north uh welcomed him with open arms and in in the years since he's revolutionized canuck football he's led them to an otherworldly 42 win percentage in the world's most competitive football conference of course uh concaf otherwise known as the conference of death uh and he's earned the right to speak his truth uh he's said things like i don't care about the u.s uh team i never want to coach the u.s national team and uh sorry celebration police uh he he's made sure each after each victory to stay on the pitch for at least one hour dancing for his adoring fans now clive imagine if you will an english generational footballing genius uh like i don't know uh neil warnock for instance um and he you find that you realize he's he's in scotland he's turned up in scotland and he's and he's he's uh started chatting chatting shit to you hurling insults at king charles your hero um at clive's here like no imagine then if neil warnock takes the his loch ness monsters down to say california in the round of 32 uh where you can't hide anymore behind a tightly guarded international border the uh scottish english uh border to the north uh no exactly um and as it all stands the end and listen where he can't hide anymore he's no longer protected and the all that stands in his way is the mighty bafana bafana of south africa neil warnock of course i'm talking about right and uh we we are they are led by of course belgian 40 year old veteran manager hugo bruce we all know him he's an avid cyclist uh he has no time for social media he's a cyclist uh he's a cyclist uh he's a cyclist uh he's a cyclist and he told the south african fa that he if they were free to kill him if they if he didn't make the world cup we all know him that's what i call accountability so so so clive and elliot if neil warnock had been so disrespectful to you we'll call him neil warnock benedict arnold and he came to los angeles los angeles england in this analogy it would be incumbent on all of us to get behind the bafana bafana i'm talking about the crips the bloods the latin kings the millwall fans this whole thing feels like the always sunny in philadelphia whiteboard meme at this point this is guys this is a presentation that i give at the beginning of the episode okay okay all right would you let neil warnock out of the stadium alive i'll go to you elliot i'm a renowned pacifist okay i run faster uh scared than angry so i would i would let someone else handle neil warnock and i would let them handle it i'm a renowned pacifist so i would let them handle it i'm a renowned pacifist and of all of the professional football managers that i feel i could take in a confrontation he would not be high up the list granted it would be a very very short list but he would not be on it so now i would allow him to do really whatever he needs to do i say he's top three for me i'd say probably number two behind allardyce um is that your actual living room no they built this it's beautiful yeah i have a picture of uh who's this guy's cartoon yeah i have this kissing thing here clive is that is that a spain scarf i don't know where'd they get this from they put it here i don't know uh does it look like a living i just found out i can do this it looks like you live there yeah anyway let's we'll cut around that oh i do live here when i'm on the when i when i'm uh in the dog house so i'm just saying clive and elliot south africa have to win we have to beat this this asshole that's just shouting across the border at us telling us that we're not that cool and that he deserved the job over a guy that goes coach messy and took a dog shit and taught him right and i just i'm just saying like can you just can you can you just appeal to her i know you guys are big south africa fans yourselves you my home more the rug more the rugby to be honest more the rugby i follow that really close to god yeah and that's that they've had such a effect on the country right it's unbelievable what they're doing and how they live and how they train and rassy rassy rassy rasmus he's a genius that's my favorite he's kind of the mick he's kind of a mikhail in the way that he's like kind of uh this is to be set up i don't know i study him i watch videos on him all the time he's he's a genius honestly i love it and he's a great person so guys we're gonna we have to beat this jesse marsh and he here's the point that went on a little long i was very excited last night when i was writing it i thought clive would laugh i thought because all the time jesse marsh is a knob and south africa have to beat him he's coming to america after talking crap to us guys you know what to do and i'm talking to you the mill wall la supporters okay guys let's talk about speed round let's talk about the three kind of spheres of influence i want to focus on england brazil and the united states uh specifically i kind of the theme for this discussion to be uh have we been arsenaled have we been hoodwinked by literally uh one and a half usa matches and maybe let's call it the third quarter of the first england match uh into thinking that positional football is going to take over the world cup i think i'm starting to remember that no this is an endurance test it's a blood sport uh it's nil nils it's penalty shootouts it's it's it's tight matches it's nervy um do you think i especially with the with the england national team what's wrong with them do you think that that uh two equal can emulate kind of what his system is or he has to adjust to kind of the environment of the knockouts uh like moving forward yeah you've always got to adjust right this tournament goes on for about three years right so he's only just drawn one game there's not a problem here and i think he will adjust but he should adjust on the on the future not just what just happened and think well this happened i must make changes for that just stick to your plan and he'll be fine i think england i've got a really good side they just played a really physical garner and they struggled and that that happens sometimes right if you can't win don't lose yeah elliot what do you think like uh how are they going to look in the knockouts because like you want to can you play like a pressy two goal style system especially in a thousand degree inferno uh like is that possible is this just a sort of like an endurance test and about survival or is this can you apply kind of some of your higher principles that we're all getting excited about after one match uh like uh the first the first go around i do think that the best managers uh have traditionally been in club football and we're seeing some of them in the international game now and i think it's improving the game and it's improving the performances of those teams and i expect england will benefit from that as the tournament goes on i think the usa have definitely benefited from that even something as silly as pochettino understanding to rotate his team for a meaningless third group stage game don't get roped into the fact that brad pitt is at sofi stadium and the non-football knowing american public is going to be mad if you lose the game rotate rest be ready for the knockout rounds i've enjoyed watching the u.s i think that front-footed style has led to more entertaining football football that maybe people who aren't as familiar with with the sport can get behind and get excited about so i do think that these these club managers are making a difference i think you'll see that as the tournament goes on and my hope is that um we continue to see more of it because i think it's good for international tournaments to have better managers in the game and also people are kind of ignoring what's happening outside in the camp right which is this hell clive are you familiar with the national lampoon vacation film series I am yeah and I told him you wouldn't know that class and what I would say so this is what England has had to deal with we've kept a running list of course there was a gun gun violence there was nine people were shot next to the camp a tornado a hurricane their Prime Minister resigned they got robbed Harry Kane was naked for three days because he had no clothes because they were okay no some of them are sunburned they have a German coach after what happened what they did I can't believe it Harry Harry Maguire is stalking them Harry Maguire is following them around the country saying hey I'm sorry I'm doing a merchandise signing but I have my boots if you guys need I'm here the Scottish drank all their beer in Boston Americans brought the Declaration of Independence to training and they got the entire England team to sign it and of course most recently in the in the Ghana match they were cursed by an African witch doctor but I don't know if you heard this he was nice enough he's like I'm just it's gonna be one match I'll lift the curse so he's like a he's a nice guy but if we're looking ahead there is a potential for if they get to rounded 16 then playing with the ghosts of Maradona at altitude in the Azteca against Mexico like literally like is this is this just is this just a cursed trip led by Mr. Chevy Chase to Wally world what are you rating your their chances right now like to me after I'd say the first match I said it's the I'd say I kind of bought in and I think I thought there was a high probability of them winning this tournament now I've convinced myself that it's the hope that kills you so like where are you guys seeing a you know how you where do you see this team going yeah I think they do all right I think Elliot said it he's nailed it really this is the World Cup of the managers the quality of majors is so much better you know and that's led to proper tactics you know honestly that I've got an idea what they're trying to do and so I think - who's really good either top-level guy I think top-level managers now looking at the work that life balance they have in national football versus club football and saying let's go right so i think england could do really well he understands why he selected every player and i think they're going to go far yeah look arsenal 22 years of hurt done the knicks 53 years of hurt done england 60 years of hurt done things happen in threes it's coming home and when i say home of course yeah yeah you think it's coming home for me personally because i'm like uh because i i'm a rose ed kind of guy like i just want england to win because i want to see my boys happy the real question i have in my mind is do i want to see harry kane happy i don't know um but when let's focus on the captain uh i haven't i can't identify a harry kane moment that he's had for the national side i i can't identify a moment where it's like this is him the harry kane game put the team on his back and like i think a question i have for you is like i'm seeing jude free of the dictator finally and i'm like oh yeah like actually uh he's kind of living his truth finally uh the the you know the the the charles de gaulle or whatever you know what i'm talking about and bobby uh yeah vinnie and jude are just free now of the shackles of this fucking oh anyway but um uh i one thought i've kind of had is like maybe we don't wait for harry kane to have that moment can jude kind of be the zizou of the 98 zizou of of of the yeah nice the graphic is that mbappe no that's uh kim kim jong-il kim jong-un uh yeah so oh no that's a uh that's no i'm not gonna say that you know what i was gonna say but i'm not gonna say it but we thank god south africa avenged us how many times have we seen sun buried that chance back to the show um do you think that judy should actually be the one who emerges i think he's trying to um i don't think our media are too happy with him trying to emerge they're happier when harry's the main man but he won't be stopped right he's 22 i think he's the youngest player ever to reach 50 caps right he's he's coming he's on his way and he won't be stopped and he's a superstar but the moment he plays the bad past the press will be after him that's just the nature of the beast right and why is that so i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know why is that clef because it's an anti-birmingham bias in the media i think um we what were you thinking i was just thinking yeah we have things we have we we see certain people as leaders and we don't see others simple as that right that's nature of the beast yeah um okay we'll move on from that i mean like do you i i kind of like for me i kind of elliot like i think jude kind of that's the potential for the because two years ago he was the face of english football like before the euros it was the hey jude commercial like and it kind of feels like the last two years well and he got a lot he got pelters for that in some in some corners of the media as well what shot they can shut up okay can they show like how i said pelters there by the way that was for you yeah yeah no i thought it was bloody brilliant i thought you were i thought you were buffing uh you're buffing mad for that or you're you're a regular gryffindor or whatever anyway no but like uh yeah it does feel like that that kind of him being the face of england stalled they can shut up oh sorry uh ethan did uh the same touchdown dance as freaking holly shut up just let me there's such babies oh i'm scandalized megan markle oh look anyway but continue i'm going well i do think jude is an interesting player because i'm not entirely sure what he is seems to be there for the big moment. He arrives in the box. He scores the goal. He wants to be everywhere. He has that Roy of the Rovers quality that Declan Rice has, too. But, you know, I don't totally know if they have the construction in the midfield completely right. I don't know that you need Elliot Anderson and Declan Rice in the same midfield together. Clive's going to make fun of me. Get rid of the double pivot. Go to a single pivot. Bring in a 10. Where's Everett to Ezra? Yeah, put Ezra next to Jude. Let them play off of Kane more. Because, look, Kane is not thriving right now because he's a wardrobe, right? He stands still. But if you have someone that stands still, you need Jude who runs beyond. You need someone to combine with him. And I don't think Anderson or Rice are the right guy for that. So that's just me. I don't think they're platforming Kane very well. And while I think there's a world where you can play with someone else up front, England aren't going to do that. So you have to set yourself up to platform Kane. But I'm sure, Clive, you would disagree with that. I do disagree because they're doing everything in their power to platform him by allowing him to go everywhere. And then you need someone to hit the box. And that happens to be Jude. And so the thing with Kane is maybe we're building a system around him too much because when he's marked, then nothing else works. I think Kane is the plus point, but he's also the single point of failure. And then we look at everything else. And we shouldn't look at everything else. We should think to ourselves, okay, in the next game, for example, do we need a penalty box presence? Do we need someone in the box so we can play to that person in the box? And if Kane wants to go free, then he becomes a number. And then you can drop Jude back one. And then you can go that way. And I think we must have a box presence because Panama are not coming to play. And so I think that's what he's learned from the last game. Ivan Toney, I know it sounds strange, but that's the player I would play in the next game. I would assign him for Arsenal. Yeah. Interesting. I kind of do somewhat agree. The balance probably, instead of Anderson, would be probably better if we had Adam Wharton. Kind of as a line-breaking point god, kind of Chris Paul. Sorry, you're going to have to hear my references. Okay? I love Chris Paul. Kind of as a point god. No. But I actually now, I kind of, now that I think that we're going to the knockout stages, actually that pairing of Anderson with Rice and Jude actually is better suited to that game state. Yes. I agree. So it's like kind of. It's interesting. It was like going into the tournament, I was like, Adam Wharton should be the third. And now 170 million pound man, Elliot Anderson, I think is better suited for just these cagey blood. 170. Do you hear Chris Samba got a 290 million transfer? Are we talking dollars or pounds, right? It's 160 million pounds, right? So yeah, there you go. Yeah. What are these prices? How the hell did. Who the hell at Barcelona decided 75 million? I don't know why I'm talking like an old Jew right now, but 75 million, the price is, I think it's, I'm talking about the prices, the prices, the craze, no, anyway. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's just like, yeah, I think that that actually, that midfield set up kind of looking forward is actually suits them well. In fact. Yeah. There's two tournaments, there's two tournaments, isn't it? There's a tournament of the, of the rounds and a tournament for knockouts. Come the knockouts, Elliot will be wanting these double pivot back, mate. I promise you that. Yeah. Um, okay. Me or the footballer? So, so like, uh, the next, next, uh, case study is like, you know, I mean, uh, Clive just said this could be the, uh, the world cup of managers, but, um, let's not forget. forget that we have fallen for it again. After the first Brazil match, how many times have we said this about Carlo? Oh, it's over. They don't have the talent. How many times? And then some guy, some rando from Swansea, who's 39 years old, scores two in extra time. How many times has it looked like Pep's been in a lair with Bunsen burners and beakers going insane, and he's like, I'm going to have Kyle Walker play nine tomorrow, and Carlo won't see that coming. And then Carlo's like, I'm going to look like I'm doing no work at my job and smoke a cigarette, and it's not going to work. It is the just the I mean, I think, what's the word for it? I mean, it's aura, right? Or vibes, right? Like, I just aspire to be just a guy that likes just, I like heavy meals. I like a heavy pasta meal with red wine, and I just stand there and just look bored. But no, we're looking at them, like, after the first match, we're like, it's a wrap on Brazil. It's not happening. Their midfield looks doo-doo. But, like, you know, Carlo's coming out of the group with seven points, right? Carlo's also said that this is not about the team that scores the most goals, it's about the team that prevent, like, that prevents goals. Is that actually like, are we putting too much into the thought that this is, like, that Cruyffian, Hugo de Posición will be a factor in a tournament that is effectively just an endurance test? Like, where do you see Brazil going? I think they're fucked. I do. I think they're fucked, for a few things. First of all, they have him. Well, they do have the eyebrow. By the way, the best thing Brazil have brought to this tournament, beyond any shadow of a doubt, are the online memes about Hendrick not playing. And if you have not seen them, go online and check out Brazil. Twitter has, I think, won the World Cup with their memes about Hendrick not getting playing time. They are amazing. There is a cow raising its eyebrow that you should check out. But look, the Rafinha injury is a major one for them because Ryan is a talented young player, but I don't think that's a player that you can just lose and recover from in terms of goal scoring. I think Neymar being back in the mix could be a problem for them. Is there a deferential quality to the team about wanting Neymar to play? He's not the Neymar of old. Where is your soul, sir? The midfield is functional Casemiro can't run They might face, you know, a really interesting Japan team and then they could face Norway and how do they handle Erling Haaland? Gabby versus Haaland would be a fun rekindled rivalry. So I think the loss of Rafinha, I think the functional midfield, I think the Neymar factor could all be problems for Brazil trying to get further. But their defending is good. So Clive, I don't know, maybe that's enough for them to get further. They are Brazil. I'm not too sure where they are, to be honest, but I'll give you the other side of things. They changed their fullbacks and Ryan is actually a really good player. He is. And he's like a breakout player and Rafinha's had injuries all year and he's a much bigger name and we all know about him, but he's not been playing well for a while. Ryan is more positionally suited to what they want to try to do. I have a worry about Casemiro. I'm just not sure if he's leggy enough. I got this other guy called Ed Milson in the background that Manchester United are about to sign and Carlo, he just put him in there. You know, he's smart. He's not stupid. You may find the moment to put him in there, give him more energy and if they do that, I think they could go somewhere. I'm not sure where somewhere is. They brought in Cunha. They got rid of Thiago from the first game, brought in Cunha, a lot more flexibility tactically. And what I like about Carlo is he sees the problems and that first game he looks stressed. The second game he eased up because he realised he's fixing one problem after the other and if he sorts out Casemiro, then see what they can do, right? They beat Haiti and Scotland, so let's just pump the brakes a little bit. I'm being too blown away by it. First of all, you guys are freaking hipsters. Second of all, listen, how many times do we say this about Carlo? Okay. I do think the biggest thing that we haven't mentioned and the biggest is that they have Alisson. And in knockout stages, having a world-class goalkeeper, I'm sorry, I don't see Jordan Pickford in the same category as Alisson. I'm just too short. Emi Martinez was a massive factor in the last World Cup, right? He was maybe perhaps 50% of the equation with Messi. I mean, if we're. You know, and then, of course, by extension, we have to have a keeper injured against Brighton and then isn't it crazy how it works? Yeah, I remember. Just Neil Mopé changed the world. Neil Mopé injures. What's his name? The German. And what. Oh, our boy. Oh, Bert Leno. Run that again. Neil Mopé injures Bert Leno. Emi gets a chance for the first time ever. He gets a transfer. He wins Messi the World Cup. Neil Mopé should be man of the tournament. Okay, anyway, for the last one. Having a goalkeeper like that is a massive factor in the knockout stages. Second of all, they have attacking depth. I mean, if you look at. Rafinha's out, but they have Endrick. They have Ran, as you said. They have Cunha. Gabriel Martinelli? Are you not going to mention Gabriel Martinelli? Ooh, Martinelli. Ooh. Okay. They have. Vinny is. Listen, I'm sorry. He's free of the presence of the best player in the world, right? And he can kind of be the top boy on that side. I actually love their attacking depth. Their midfield does seem stodgy, but I think in tight game state, it doesn't really kind of look the same as. as it would be in, like, a kind of more open match. And I just think that, like, yeah, like, listen, Clive, like, Scotland were in their half for 47 seconds. I don't, like, this is, this is like, uh, we forget, like, this is what Carlo does, okay? And Elliot, where is your, where is your, where is your heart? Respect? The return of Neymar. I mean, like, how beautiful would this be? I mean, listen, we're, let's just, let's just, everything else is beautiful right now. We're seeing Messi, we're seeing Messi expressing himself. I mean, oh, the boy's still got, I mean, he had nine turnovers, he could maybe sprint, maybe, like, 10, 12 yards. He has it still. He's playing with a, it's just like he's back with, uh, Suarez and, and, uh, Messi. Uh, can we turn our attention to the U.S.? I'm glad, uh, you know, I feel bad. Elliot, are you okay? You know, you went full, you went, you bought in fully. And, uh, for me, I was just, uh, I was like, uh, you know, I was watching Fawlty Towers and I was, uh, and, uh, and keeping up appearances. And I wasn't paying much attention to the U.S. national team. Uh, I just walked through the house saying, I believe, I believe that we, I believe that we should win. It's so crap. Country Roads was awesome. That's a United song, mate. I don't sing that one. Country Roads is a John Denver song, in fact. It's a Manchester United song. It's a John Denver song. I believe he died in a plane crash. Anyway, um, okay. We may have a good matchup in the round of 32. There's a path there. Um, uh, like, Belgium, Egypt, likely in, in six, in the round of 16, there's a, we have a, we need, we need to seek revenge against Belgium. There's a, we have history there. Um, do they get to the quarters? Is it, is that, like, uh, you know, can this grizzled veteran who was handed the juggernaut of England, Tottenham Hotspur, only managed one Champions League final, uh, can he, what do you think? I, I think the quarters are where the United States should expect to get to, and then after that, you could be facing someone like a Spain or a Portugal, and at that point, I think the expectation would be that you don't go through. Um, so for me, par, uh, that, that's from the game of golf. Par would be, uh, to get to the quarters, I think, based on how it sets up. But, you know, it's an interesting one. Define golf. Uh, so, so, Clev, and I want to ask you about this, because I, I think the interesting thing with the U.S., and we've played at times where you probably haven't been able to watch a lot, I've loved the, the pressing, I've loved the front-footed, uh, approach, I've loved the tempo. The rest defense isn't good, and when you beat the press, the United States has been all over the shop defensively. So, do you think that that gives teams that face us, even if they're maybe unfavored, a chance? Because if you get out, I think you can create chances against the U.S. Also, it's hot, too. It's hard to do it when it's a thousand degrees. I think it's, um, you have to just think about it, right? They won the first two games. The third game, um, I don't care who you are. Look at Germany. They couldn't win their last game, because they already won their first two. So, it takes a bit of the energy out, it takes a bit of the edge out, but what the manager's got, he's got another set of players that are ready to play. So, he's made his squad deeper. So, he's thinking, okay, I've lost, but I've won. I've now got a bigger group I can use when it really, really matters. So, um, I think, uh, the U.S. have looked really, really good, you know, and, but, let's see what happens when the crunch comes. But they have got a manager that understands what he's doing. Whether you like him or not, he really understands big moments. He can see the game, make adjustments. So, yeah, they've got a chance to get to par, which is the last, you know, I'd say the last 16, Elliot, would you agree? I think that's par, yep, absolutely. And I think that'd be good for the tournament, and then you start to get people on top of buildings if you get to the last eight, right? And that's when things change. So, um, so, yeah, I think he's done well so far, and I think what he's done, he's made people think that the U.S. understand what they're doing on a football and they've invested in this guy to make them more tactically aware and more elite and it looked like an elite team you know with elite tactics that the quality of player we can discuss that right but that will hopefully improve over time because the u.s is not bad at producing good athletes right so we'll see what happens yeah and we've got flo balligan arsenal legend flo balligan so oh my god arsenal legend matt turner yeah that yeah he doesn't austin arsenal legend trustee the process yeah he scored the colorado the colorado maldini uh another one we've just let walk out the door boys uh uh anyway but uh i think i check their next fixtures they're gonna be outdoor games it's it's uh the world the world is ending right now i think we let's just watch sports okay i think it was like this in 94 as well tim was making the point that uh the kind of the the brazil kind of narrative right now it does mirror a lot of uh the 94 world cup in the united states and uh they they kind of like were not favored they were worse than italy um and uh they pulled it off in the end um when i'm looking at the united states uh it's listen um you know i i i prefer the finer things in life um my state a good glass of port having sex through the zipper full tuxedo is that i'm an englishman is that an english tradition should we ask clive about that clive i think that the point is is that i need to make a new world in motion to inspire my five boys yes i'm talking about morgan rogers as well here we go yeah clive here's your chance what's going on what's going on with that what's going on with the arsenal i think it's gonna happen it's all about the number all about what else just say that i was first with the information i i reported i reported that uh yeah here we go here we go fabrizio in the mud once again friedland bomb okay um i think that i think that quarters they have a they have a good path to the quarters belgium is of is not a good team i think that there are like probably seven good teams and a huge gap and then maybe the united states i think but they're top 10 i think they are the best of the of the pack um and i do think that if they're playing outside it's it's sweltering even if they're playing outside it's sweltering even if like when they're in seattle it's sweltering um what we're seeing is you they played a pressy system in indoors the first match they did it for the first half against uh australia and then it kind of like when you're pressing it takes more energy than than having possession um i believe i think clive is that right this sounds like any arsenal vision podcast honestly that's right just like being at home that's how i keep the ball away from his net he knows what he's doing yeah um and matt turner uh uh you know he's he he showed in yesterday that he's ready to take the number one shirt again uh guys i'm not sure about that it's over it's over it's over guys it's over they're gonna lose to bosnia in operation deliberate force part two uh questions for you boys uh clive you're like uh someone that i really enjoy listening to uh in talent analysis going on your youtubes i've really for me the standout talent that i've Switzerland Zoran Mamdani on Switzerland the new Swiss starlet Zoran Mamdani what the hell kind of I thought he could do it all guys okay um who else have you who have you guys been enjoying that like you weren't familiar uh previously or as familiar with previously well funny enough I I didn't we didn't really like him but I watched Arda Gula play for Turkey yesterday and I thought he was I thought he was excellent and I've heard the fuss about him I've not watched the game properly and um I thought he dominated the game I thought he was just beautiful to watch and um yeah I wonder what happens to him at Real Madrid you know is he gonna get I think Mourinho wants him unfortunately yeah let's see what what they do with him how they use him because he's a talent there right and sometimes they can get lost at Real Madrid so yeah he's the one for me yeah yep I think Gilberto Moura is a really interesting player the 19 year old from Mexico uh coming into the tournament people were talking about him and he got a chance to play in their third group game absolutely brilliant um you know I wonder if he's ready to make a leap from the Mexican league I think he plays in Liga MX and I just wonder if he's ready to make a leap from there yeah probably won't play a ton for Mexico as you know he's not first choice there but he's someone that can change the game you got a couple of players like this but you know some of them like Nico Paz who may not play that much for Argentina he's known he's a known commodity owned by Real Madrid he's going to stay in Como but eventually wind up at a big club Gilberto Moura a little more of an interesting under the radar player who he fits that mold of what Clive knows I like he's a he's a skillful technical uh playmaking midfielder just exactly the kind of player that fits my eye so I like him uh yeah Sam who else did you have on your 15 boys well obviously Buati oh yeah okay who else was on your list of 15 boys this guy's list has been incredible great Sam producer Sam say hello to the boys come on hello hello no no no go Sam get in the camera you gotta say hi to the boys okay he listens we we love you he gets we get mad at you guys we love you again every every time I try to sell Victoria you guys are the best podcast in the world I guess like uh what what if I will close on the I'm gonna do another kind of bit I've prepared for you guys after this but like what um what are the major surprises you guys have had for like let's say looking forward to the knockout stages like I thought it was going to be a slog too many games I thought it was going to suck and then I thought maybe maybe Messi Ronaldo will play each other in the quarters the world will explode again uh but I've been pretty engaged with this World Cup throughout um how about you guys like what have you what were you not expecting and uh what have you been pleasantly surprised by you first Clive I wasn't expecting all the stories you know like of all the old men doing their thing like Ronaldo and Messi and Neymar and every every it almost feels like every country has a as a person that they really look up to and it maybe tells you I think National football is different to club football where it's more of a collective but really there are National Heroes developing and Harry Kane is one Neymar's another come on but in England he is right and uh and Neymar again he can barely he can barely run but when he came on that pitch the the whole crowd was was desperate to see him right so um players in coming to the end of their careers and maybe getting a lap of honor clap you know for doing what they've done for their countries right so I'm pleased with that yeah yeah I I'll take sort of a the other side of it which is I expected the quality of this tournament to be affected by it expanding to 48 teams and certainly there have been examples of that but I think there have been really fun stories of unfavored teams that have gotten results that have been fun to watch whether it's Eloy room or Virginia from uh I think is it was it Cape Verde's Virginia right yeah Cape Verde have a chance with two draws to get is that how you say how do you say his name Virginia is that it oh okay I've been saying it wrong I mean do you think do you think people have been keeping track can you edit that out uh I said the the girl thing oh I've been calling him vagina for weeks now oh why didn't anyone say Sam why did you let me do that two things that people widely have been very positive about recently though so you have vagina has been an absolute brick wall in this tournament that's your own problem that sounds like um you did talk about being inside something for 47 seconds earlier in the episode vagina has been blocking everything okay anyway so so Cape Verde uh great story you know curacao managed to draw there have been some unfavored teams Ecuador getting through the way they did South Africa getting through the way they did I just think there have been fun stories of unfavored players and Nations that have that have made the 48 team tournament not feel like a slog and so kudos to them well done yeah wait first of all Ecuador don't give them kudos no kudos for Ecuador what the hell is going on with that coach you know what he looks like an extra the coach for Ecuador looks like an extra from a point break do you remember the movie point Christian rock to me that's what he looks like to me yeah yeah like he's in a like a like a like a righteous gemstones he's the electric guitar guy with like a ton of pedals he also looks like he looks like a young Simon Jordan he found a he found a tweet um so okay uh uh I just want to give you guys uh I'm instituting a new thing I'm going to go through each World Cup uh history corner um Clive what are your memories of the 1930s um well I just left school at the time so yeah yeah yeah so yeah I remember and you used to be able to get on the trolley go downtown for a nickel um anyway but uh I want to tell you guys what so what do you know about the 1930 World Cup in Uruguay not much that was the first one wasn't it the first one and Uruguay won it did they win it you know you I have to I can't believe I have to tell you about your it's like you have to tell me about uh freaking hamburgers or hot dogs you have to tell me about the freaking FIFA Peace Prize come on like I'm gonna marry I shouldn't be okay anyway um let me tell you I've been researching the the uh 1930 World Cup and let me tell you it was it's so funny it's like okay first of all there's a lot of funny stuff happening at that time, but okay. I'm going to tell you about. These are my funny things. Funny stuff? Elliot. I don't think there was any funny stuff happening in the early 30s. Well, the early 30s are okay, I guess. Yeah. You're talking about the talkies. Okay. Well, there's something else. Okay, anyway, but why does everything have to be about the Hollywood? Okay. Why am I so sure? I've got to shut up. Guys, first of all, the Romanian playboy king, Carol. That's pretty funny. He picked their squad. There was a Romanian player. His name was Alfred Icebinder, who missed the boat back from Uruguay. He was also a figure skater. Slide. Yes. He. His family assumed that he was dead and he showed up at his own funeral upon arrival. Okay. Egypt missed the boat. They didn't get to go. There was. The United States doctor. The U.S. was in the semis. What the fuck was going on there? How the hell was that? Against Argentina. The doctor came. Ran out onto the pitch. He tripped. He. And he dropped a bottle of chloroform. And he knocked himself out on the pitch. The referee blew the whistle six minutes early with a French attacker through clear-on-goal versus Argentina. Bolivia wore berets. The refs wore suits. Romania-Peru had an attendance of 300. People. And finally, I want to tell you about the final. The final was between Argentina and Uruguay. There were almost 100,000 people in Montevideo that attended. They refused to use each other's balls. So the first half had to be played with the Argentina ball, which I believe Argentina led 2-0. And the second half had to be played with the Uruguay ball, which they scored 4-1, 4-2. The winning goal was scored by a gentleman named Hector Castro, whose nickname was The Mamed. He cut off his own arm with an electric saw at the age of 13. And he scored a game-winning goal. He was also kind of a playboy. He would show up to training drunk. He was one of those kind of players. Duncan Ferguson, if you will. And he used to use his stump as a weapon during set plays. How cool is that? The play from a Calartena. On the way into the final, over 5,000 guns were confiscated. Wow. Because people had brought them in to kill the referees. And or the opposite team. Finally, when word spread that Argentina had been defeated in Buenos Aires, they basically did a January 6th to the Uruguayan consulate, tried to set it on fire, and they threw stones at a group of Uruguayan people. Guys, this is our history. This is the World Cup. Next year will be the centenary. And hopefully we will do the Uruguayan January 6th all over again. Anyway, guys, it's been great to have you. I don't know. I just want to say thank you. I just want to say I doubt they'll hold the World Cup next year, so we'll probably have to wait four years for the centenary. These are just minor details, Eddie. Next World Cup, dude. What are you doing right now? Actually, it's called Baba O'Reilly. Okay, we all know that. Can you play a solo for us right now? Grab it, grab it, grab it. Eddie Van Halen. Guys, you're my boys. It's been great to be joined by you. We're going to cut this, but the second World Cup was the Mussolini World Cup. The referee kicked the ball away from a Hungarian player who's. He kicked it to the Italians. His new leader was. Why hasn't Trump thought of that? That'll get us faster out of the 16. The British were like, how dare you make a federation? This is supposed to be a ball in the middle of a field and we're supposed to be punching each other. They're like, why are you trying to give it a federation? So they didn't go. And no one in England really even knew the World Cup was happening until the final when they heard about the violence that had taken the streets. They were like, we want a piece of that. We're off the show, but Chelsea did a pre-season tour in Buenos Aires and they were like, these people are sick in the head about their football. They were actually like, yeah. Anyway, boys, thanks for coming. Did you have fun? Good to see you. How was I doing? I mean, guys, how was I doing? You thought I was okay? Yeah, absolutely brilliant. It was flawless. The vagina part is. I want a recording of that so I can listen to it. It was your idea. Really, really good. Clive, do you want to say those words? I didn't think they were very appropriate about the Scottish they were using before. What did I say? That wasn't appropriate. You can't call Scottish people that. I thought there was a lot of history behind those words. I can't call Scottish people what? What if Neil Warnock takes those Loch Ness mons? You said that. I didn't think it was funny. Neil Warnock is the funniest. No, no, Neil Warnock is the funniest reference. I was trying to think of. The funniest. He's scary. I was like, should I do Allardyce? Should I do, like, Harry? No, like, I was like, I need an old. And I was like, Neil. It's Neil. He's actually a nice guy. I've met him, actually. He's a great guy, apparently. Yeah, yeah. He's woke, too. He's labored. He came down to do some pre-season training at our non-league club, and he stood there, spent time with us, and, like, was telling you all about his career. I thought, crikey, what a nice guy. You know the story about the dream, his wife's dream? No, not that one. His wife had a dream, that this fullback who hadn't played in two months scored a hat trick, and so he's like, you're fucking, uh, whatever her name was. What was her name? It makes the story better. He's like, yeah, Mosh just had a dream. Sharon. Yeah, Sharon's had a dream. So he's like, you're starting at nine. And he's like, what? And he scored left foot, right foot, head. What? In, like, ten minutes. That's amazing. Tim Butterfield. Yeah. Danny. Danny Butterfield. Never. Why are you making me look like an idiot? 21-plus and president in select states for Kansas, in affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino, or 18 and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5255. 5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts, or call 1-877-8-HOPE in New York, or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867. When you shop Kroger delivery, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered right to your door. Our refrigerated trucks keep your items fresh while our associates are committed to getting every detail right. Carefully selecting and packing your order with care, because bringing you fresh quality groceries is what we do best. And right now, enjoy $20 off your first online order of $75 or more. Restrictions apply. See site for details. Kroger. Fresh for everyone. Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-CONTACTS.