A lot of people think the mental load is just a list of tasks. This is how men tend to conceptualize it. You know, "Oh, do the dishes on all the lawn. I'll do the things like you feel better." And we're like, "Don't feel better." For women to be turned on, the remains have to be turned off. Two things that women want most from their partners around the mental load is number one, more initiative-taking. And number two, appreciation and acknowledgement. Have you ever felt like you're to-do list as longer than the day? And no one even notices? Or maybe you're the guy thinking, "I help out. Why doesn't it feel like enough?" Here's the thing that most couples miss. The mental load is emotional for play. And when it goes unshared, it becomes the silent wedge between you. Today on the podcast, we're talking with Dr. Morgan Cutlip about how seeing, sharing, and stepping into the mental load can transform your connection from chores to chemistry in the bedroom. And this isn't just about dividing tasks. It's about building intimacy, building trust, and even better sex. Dr. Morgan Cutlip has spent nearly two decades helping people understand themselves and their relationships better. She's a psychologist, she's a researcher, a mom, and the author of a better share, a book that's changing how couples approach the invisible work that happens in every home. And she's not just talking theory, she lives this. And today she's bringing so much clarity and compassion to a topic that's just often caught, it causes confusion and conflict in the relationship. And we're so excited to have her back on the show. Dr. Morgan Cutlip, it's so good to have you back on the show. Thank you for being with us. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. We love chatting with you. We were just talking for quite a while before we hit record. And we're like, we should hit record a while back. But it's just such a natural flowing conversation. And we love what you do and how helpful and practical our conversations are. And by the way, if you haven't heard the previous episodes with Dr. Morgan, we will link those in the show notes so that you can listen in. But today we're excited to talk about the mental load. Man, this is a kind of a charged topic in a lot of marriages. But let's start just by defining the mental load. How is it different than the typical household responsibilities that we think of? And how is it charged? Yeah, we'll get there, too. Well, OK, so I'll give the 30,000 foot definition. Then I'll give a very quick bit more in the weeds. So the big picture definition is that the mental load is this seemingly never-ending running to do this we carry around in our heads. They have two key components. The first key component is that the majority of the tasks are invisible. The invisibility piece makes it really hard to explain to our partners sometimes, hand off to our partners, and importantly, makes it hard to get appreciation around. The second piece is that it takes sub-cognitive real estate. This just means it crowds out space for other things like patients regulating their emotions, remembering things. That's so true. Relaxing, this experience of I can never seem to find peace and relax. And it also crowds out for a lot of women the ability to get in the mood for sex. And so those pieces are really important understand. So everybody has a mental load. I like to say this off the top of the conversation. In case anyone's listening, and they're like, why? Of that, too. Of course, everyone has a mental load. Just when you look at the research, what we find is that the majority of the tasks involved in the mental load in the home and family life are carried by women. So very quickly. And I have a whole spiel. And I have a visual in the book. I did these interviews with men and women for my book. And they're like, you make a visual of the mental load. So nice. It's in the book. But something to understand is that a lot of people think the mental load is just a list of tasks. I'll do the dishes, I'll move along. I'll do the things. You feel better, and we're like, you don't feel better. You don't understand why. And part of the reason why is that there are three categories of tasks. There's the physical, which I just described, the mental, which is like making the lists. But the kicker really is this emotional piece, the emotional labor of the home and family, which is the never-ending calculations, sort of cause and effect calculations, we're making to try to maximize positive experiences of members of our family. It feels like the stakes are high. It's like future projecting. And it's really hard to outsource. And if somebody doesn't calculate things in the same way, it's really hard to try to hand this stuff off. And it follows you everywhere. So the last piece to understand is that the mental load of home and family life, one singular line item usually contains sort of unpax, like a tiny suitcase, to contain tasks from each of those three areas-- the physical, the mental, and the emotional, like dinner. Dinner is a lot of times not just cooking dinner. Shopping, thinking through what you've got in your home, it's that missing ingredient you're stressing about, how are you going to replace? It's thinking about everyone's food preferences. Are they going to eat enough that they're not going to ask for a bowl? All right, dinner time. How do I-- a bedtime-- bedtime-- or over dinner, like my son will be eating dinner and ask for a bar and I'm like, what is your deal? This is your spitting facts right now. So I think part of what couples got to get on board with is you got to have the same language. But you have to understand that the to-do list is way more than you see on that paper. It's all of the energy that is unpacked and all the hard work and the head work and the energy that's unpacked in each of those line items on your list. Yup, thanks. That's so good. OK. [LAUGHTER] I want to-- I just want to kind of ask this question that probably-- a lot of people are having because I feel, at times, there's my qualification, that my wife, my amazing wife, adds more to her cognitive load than necessary. That I'm like, that doesn't deserve to be on there. And I'm like, let's just cross that sucker out and not even put it on there. You could just not even worth it. And she's like, no, it has to be there. And this one, this one, this one, I'm like, no. And here's one. Like, I remember this, like, we're going through spirit week, and every single day for the last month and a half has been some-- A month and a half? Yeah. It seems like-- Give me the week was only a week. But-- Chris, it has a lot of spirit. OK. So what happens, though, is we have to do all these little things. Like, I'm just laughing. The other day, our kids had to have a tie-dye shirt. Oh. And so we didn't have tie-dye. It was tie-dye. And we showed up to Target, and there was another parents sitting there like, we recognize and like, hey, you hear for the tie-dye shirts? We're like, yeah. I know that's ridiculous, but I know that's probably necessary for our kids to fit in and have a good experience of life. But what about those little arguments of maybe tie-dye is important for both of us here? But the little things that were like, hey, that doesn't need to be on the list. Why are we putting that on the mental load here? Yeah. And OK, the mental load's very nuanced. So I'm just going to give the little-- Are we just getting into the nitty gritty right here? We're just going to get into the nitty gritty, but I like that you're doing that because I think this is where couples need resources to navigate this stuff. And so OK, so I'll just explain a couple of things. Sometimes, usually the men in the relationship, but sometimes men in the relationship will say this in order to kind of opt out. So this is a tricky one, or like-- Or again, you're not. Listen, no, I'm going to go full circle. Full circle. I'm just joking. So sometimes, this is why it's nuanced. We've got to figure out, is this actually an expectation that's kind of like, come on. We don't really need to make our life more difficult, which is true sometimes. And sometimes we do this. And then sometimes the men usually-- it's not always, but usually we'll use this as a reason to sort of be like, I'm not even engaging. I don't value this. I don't agree. I don't agree. You're making it harder than you need to. Therefore, you do it. And so it becomes this sort of-- yeah, I don't love the term weaponized disengagement. I kind of like make these versions of weaponized incumbents. I don't love it, but it does exist. And sometimes that's what's going on. And I think this happens a lot. It happens a lot. I know I like to see the good in people, but it actually happens a lot. This sort of weaponized incompetence or disengagement or delaying, or all these different sorts of things. Is it weaponized incompetence? Yeah. Yeah. So we can go there next. But I'll just say around this thing that you brought up. In the book, the second half of the book is all about four areas couples need to learn to share. And it's perspective. And then the second is expectations. And so I walk couples through really kind of sussing out. Where do our expectations come from? What is this all about? And then how do we evaluate?
evaluate these things because sometimes they are a little bit high and sometimes they need to be let go. Maybe we need a lighten up on them a little bit or the third option I say is like we have to level up. Maybe this is important we got to kind of get there. If we go a little bit more behind the scenes, I think part of what happens with the mismatch and expectations is that men and women are sort of measured by different standards and we're socialized a bit differently. Women, we are really socialized to care for our relationships well. To self, even self-sacrifice for the preservation of relationships, we'll backburn ourselves till we are so crispy. It's long as everyone in our life that we love is taking care of and this becomes harmful to us and actually everybody else. But we do this. Part of the reason why is because we're judged for how well our family is taking care of what our home looks like. So all of this stuff shapes our priorities where we put our energy and what we focus on. Whereas men are socialized differently, provide and protect financial and physical safety and so you're prioritizing different things. So it makes sense to be like, "Tai-Dai, who cares?" Like forget it when we're like, "No, if R as a kid is the one kid who did not get to Spirit Week in Taitai, do you know who they're going to be thinking drop the ball?" So we have to look, we are going to shoulder the consequences. Our kids are going to go to school, they're going to come home and be like, "Mom, the only one who didn't have Taitai." So there are consequences that we will experience that our partners often won't which shape the sort of elevation of our expectations. And I think couples got to get that. It's not, you know, she's not trying to make it harder on herself. Trust me, you know, but we've got to really have a good understanding of one another so we can depersonalize some of this stuff and figure out where we land. Yep, that's so good. So when I'm explaining the mental load to husbands in session, which by the way, I've already assigned your book to several couples. Thank you. I've just launched it like a few weeks back, but it's been so helpful. When I'm explaining it to husbands, I'll actually start by sharing this fact. So Adam and I have very shared household responsibilities. More so than most couples, I would say, on many days, Adam actually does more in the household than I do. And so I start by saying that, and then I'll say, but I still have that mental load that that we're talking about here. And more of it than Adam does, even though he does more of the household responsibilities many days. And so I start by like trying to let it. It hasn't always been that way. Yeah, true, but it has been for the last several years. I think since having children, Adam has just really jumped in and our household tasks are so shared. And I'm grateful for that. And yet it is on me to go, okay, Adeline has 30 minutes between tutoring and pick up today. Let me text someone so to figure out where she's going to be. She's concerned about where she's sitting during that time and what she's going to be doing. Is there a crafter? Does she need to do this thing for practice? And like, all of that is on me. And so I'll kind of give a rundown of whatever it is that day. That's this morning that what I texted this morning on, you know, that I dealt with. And so I'll give an example to the husband of what I'm dealing with that day. And then his response is always, well, then what do I do? How do I help with that? Because it's not tangible. It's not like a, oh, I can go do the dishes. So how would you just from the work you've done on this topic? How would you respond to that husband? That's like, well, then what do I do when it comes to the stuff that's not so tangible? Yes, I'm excited because I'm actually working on two new products that are actually for men because I think men do just want instructions. Yeah. Yeah. Like not all men, but the majority of men are sort of like, we just want this to be better. Fill me in on what I should do. We'll do it. So when I, you know, I conducted survey research for my book and then I did interviews and what rose to the surface is the two things that women want most from their partners around the mental load as number one, more initiative taking and number two, appreciation and acknowledgement, which is actually very, very easy and not very time consuming. And I think, you know, something that's not talked about a lot is that a lot of women are sort of okay doing some of this sort of deeper caretaking work. A lot of women are okay with that. A lot of women enjoy it. But when it feels like it's taken for granted or feels like it's invisible, no one gets it or she feels like dismissed or minimized, that's actually when it starts to develop into resentment. And so men need to get really good at expressing deep appreciation of what she's doing. So I have formulas for actually both things for initiative taking and for appreciation. So I'll give the appreciation formula first, which is because you can't give a surface level thing. I understand that I'm being really picky about this, but it actually matters. We'll move the needle. Both halves of the couple can do it for one another and men actually love to hear this too. So it's not just a female thing. But it's so important to understand how to express appreciation in a way that really hits that makes her feel seen. So it's this. It's observation and it can be of what she's doing or equality about her. Okay. So it's not okay because my husband's compliment he loves to give is you're a good mom. I was like duh. Of course I am. I know, but that doesn't mean that much. I mean I realize it's sweet. It's nice. It does move the needle. Okay. So why am I a good mom? Right? That's what we want to hear. Observation, personal quality, what you see, plus how it makes your life better. Or example. Okay. One would be I see how much thought and heart you put into making snacks for our kids. I love that I never even have to worry about that. I know they're never going to be angry because they're well fed and I just appreciate you taking care of our family so well in that way. That's so meaningful. Yeah. It's meaningful. It moves the needle. Should we like, I'll do anything for you. Right? It shifts the warmth and the relationship. Yes. It shifts everything. So that's the one initiative taking initiative taking and and the stuff that you described. How do you step into that is by increasing your knowing. You cannot take initiative when you don't know what's going on. When you don't know people's preferences, you don't know the schedule, you don't know how the family works. You can't take initiative to care for your partner if you don't know what does it for them. So initiative taking is essentially deep knowing plus action. That's it. And a lot of men don't step into initiative because they feel like, well, I don't know how she likes it done. I don't want to get it wrong. I don't want to do it. And then it's like you didn't do it the right way. Now I'm going to feel ashamed by that. So a lot of men just become really passive in their relationships. And so you want to become more of an active initiator. And the way you do this is by increasing your knowing. How do you increase your knowing? You pay more attention. And in the book, I give something called the Buffett formula, which basically says every day you go to bed, knowing a little bit more than when you woke up. So if men are listening to this, I challenge you to get to know three things every day. One new thing about your significant other. One new thing about your kids if you have them. And one new thing about how your home and family life functions. The more in the know you will feel, the more confident and competent you will feel stepping into things without being told or asked. That's really good. That is good. It would actually really help a lot of guys to do that. Yes. Yeah. Just like kind of plugging that into like the specific example I gave from this morning. Like, so if we go to bed last night with you going, okay, so how does our how does our home function tomorrow? How does our household function tomorrow? And then like if I were able to tell you, well, I have a text out to so and so to figure out what that 30 minute gap is supposed to look like for Adeline's tutoring, you know, to pick up. And then for you to know that and then just kind of like we're a team in trying to figure that out. Even more than the one texting. You know, it's so interesting. Yes. Good. Is that if I was taking care of this because this maybe you can help me with this. This seems almost like a female trait in the sense that like guys are very, it seems like more autonomous in how they deal with stress and what they do. So like if I was taking care of stuff and I don't need her involved, I don't need her to know. It really doesn't matter. Once I do it, I don't want to talk about it because it's done. Yeah. But I want to talk about the process. She wants to talk about it. Yeah. So what is that? What is that difference? Is that a male female thing? Is that just that maybe we need to open up and feel better about it? What do you think that is? I mean, I actually don't know for certain. So I don't want to spout something out. Like I do know, I do think in many ways men have been socialized to be very independent. To sort of have like
I deal with my emotions on my own if I even show them. I am autonomous. My life can at any moment be sacrificed for the sake of my family. I'm kind of disposable. So I think in many ways, men are sort of taught. You just deal with it and you handle it. And so I'm sure, I know there are biological components and physiological components to these things, even like the tendency to want to fix things versus processes. There's some actual physiological components to that. So I'm not sure, but I do think it shows, like there's a pattern from those couples where like this is how it shows up. And part of our job and relationships and you guys know this so well, which is you both have to step toward each other. It's got to be this mutual caretaking. And so yeah, she's got a process and you're like, I don't need all this detail and you kind of got to deal. And then sometimes you're not gonna give enough detail and she's gonna have to be like, I'm gonna let that go and he can handle it without having, I will not push him to process. - Sure. - It's a give and it's a take. And I think, you know, Chris, I like it something so important, which is a lot of times with these tasks. It just feels good to not be alone in it. - Yes. - I think that's one of the things women feel a lot is like, why am I the only one? And I always, I talk to moms a lot, mom groups a lot and I always talk about that muttering we do under our breath. - You know that? - You're like, stay away from her, she's muttering. (laughing) I feel like it coming off of her, but when we do that muttering a lot of times, it does sound like that. How come I'm the only one that notices this? How come I'm the only one who does thinks of this? And so even just being in the know and feeling as a team together, as a partnership, that alone makes a difference in how we navigate these kind of aspects of our life. - True. - Yeah, I love that. That's really good. Yeah, and sometimes that's a compliment, a notice saying and I love the formula you gave for good compliments. - Well, I feel that just to kind of go back to that, I feel like appreciation is at all time low. I think on both sides. - Yeah. - And I was talking to Chris about this, it seems like couples polarize from each other 'cause they feel like they have to balance each other. You know, Shanti Philhans. - Yeah. - All of her different research she did on the man's focus on providing money. Of course, that's now maybe changed because there are women, a lot of women who work in our professionals. But you have that side and then you have the women's, I'm really worried about the relationship, the relationships. - And so because of that, maybe different focus, there seems to be like, oh, I have to pick up the pieces for her on the, I need to make sure that the kids have, crazy colors on their face tomorrow. And then for guys, I need to make sure that this plan for this marketing is, and so we're kind of in different spheres. But then that pressure from both of us is happening of, and then we start to polarize of like, this is more, not more important, but I need to pull you my way and she's pulling my way. So because of that, there's a lack of saying what you're doing and what you're carrying is super important because I'm trying to convince her that she's more needed on this side. - Yeah. - Then maybe, and she probably knows that, but still. - And I'm trying to convince you that you're needing to model this side. - Yeah, right. And there's like a polarization and pulling tension that's happening. - Yes. - And I see this a lot, it seems. - Yeah, and I think, I said like a thousand thoughts, fly through my head as I'm listening to you talk about this. And I totally agree. And I think another thing that's not said that just needs to be put on the table when it comes to modern family life is that, there's more to do than we can handle. - Yeah. - I feel like we, let's like, can we just acknowledge the fact that it's ruthless and relentless, and there's, life is very expensive. Most families require two people to work to even cover their expenses, which changes the entire sort of dynamic of a home and family life. We have this, we're being pulled into our devices, which eat up so much of our day, change the energy of our family in our home, shift our expectations. We have this pressure to always be productive. There's, there's, the sports, oh my gosh, I'm in Southern California. My son is nine. It is insane how intense this is at a young age. And so, it feels like there's more to navigate or we're more aware of all that we need to navigate, partly because of social media and all the things. So, I just think it needs to be said, couples are really up against a lot. - Yeah. - And it's like, even when you both are doing a good job sharing things, there's probably more that you're not getting done, that you should, feel like you need to be. And I think this is in part why, I talk in the book about how the mental load is the shared enemy of the couple, because your up against this villain that we're trying to overcome. And I think this sort of, we do get polarized because we start to sort of feel like, well, if you just did more, I wouldn't feel so overwhelmed. And if you just, right here, I would have feel so overwhelmed. And we are trying to pull each other into one another's worlds. And I think we got to really get on the same page of, okay, or we just got a lot going on. And this, especially as your kids are young and kind of in the sports kind of era or extracurricular era, life is busy, we got a lot going on. We got to get solid so we can navigate this together. And sometimes we're going to come over here and your world, sometimes you're going to come in mind. And sometimes we're going to stay in our lane because that's what's most efficient and effective for us. But we got this. - That's good. - Would you recommend that the couples have those conversations of like, hey, this is my lane right now? And okay, here's a hilarious example. - Yeah, let's hear it. - Okay, so you know how those stupid boxes pile up? No, we get Amazon, we get all these things, you know, things like we're shipping to our home, right? And so it's my mental load to break down the boxes. Well, you know, like we're very busy, we're traveling all the time. So, you know, sometimes it's just a toss into the garage into this one's area and I go out there once in a while and break them all down. Well, we missed, while back, we missed a recycling day and Chris was really disturbed about that. - 'Cause it's only every two weeks. - It's only every two weeks. - Oh, oh, yeah. - It's one month. - Yeah, but we have two bins. And I'm like-- - I'm like, I can't just throw. - Yeah, it's true. But I was like, babe, like I've been out there, like you're frustrated about taking this out and you're trying to share this mental load with me. But it's never been your load and I've never asked you to take my load there. I said, please stay out of my garage. (laughing) Yeah. - I mean, I said it maybe more gently, but I don't want to share this with you. I'm not asking you to be worried about this. You've never had to worry about this. It's always been taken care of by me. - True. - Yeah. - And so, like, and I guess I'm kind of going back to that statement that you may be like, hey, this is my lane. Is that helpful for couples to say like, where is the friction? And then, you know, that where we're like, maybe not and you want me to come in and take. But then, please don't worry about this. This isn't yours to hold. I don't want you to hold this. - Which was actually helpful when you said that. - Which is so nice. - Yeah. - Yeah. Again, this is why it's such a nuanced topic 'cause there's all these kinds of ins and outs. So when I talk about the actual sort of handoff, because I believe there's a lot more to them in to load than just the delegation of things, but there, of course, you gotta talk about that. So I talk about the handoff. You know, you sit down with your partner and you do talk about, okay, what are the things? You're gonna fully own what are the things? I'm gonna fully own. And then what are we gonna share? And how are we gonna do that? And then you can talk to about kind of like expectations and all the things. But when you fully own something, I think, yeah, it's 100% okay to say, listen, but out of my business, I dropped the ball, but I got you. And I think, you know, what you did was so beautiful because you reassured her, reassured, oh my gosh, my husband says I really show my Ohio when I say this. (laughing) He's teasing me last night at bedtime. He's like, okay, Ohio, reassured. You reassured her that you've got it. And that it's yours and even saying, you know, I dropped the ball, but don't even keep that in your head. And I think that's what a lot of, this is, again, we were talking before we recorded about how this is a charged topic. - Yes. - One of the ways it's charged is we don't ever want to talk about how the women might be kind of overstepping or maybe doing something they need to stop doing. And something that we need to get better at, some of us, is that when we hand something off, get out of the way. Let them fail, let them figure it out, let them fine tune their strategies, get out of the way, or else you're going to continue to carry it in your mind and then you're not getting the benefit of handing that task off. And so I've dropped the ball lots of times on things that I do. and it has been sometimes jazz, but usually we're pretty solid.
and we have to have grace for each other and get out of their way and it's okay to to reassure them and say, "I got this. I must up, but also butt out, stay on my garage." I think that's totally fine. And you're taking care of her. Are you really caring for her? When you said that, which is totally. - Totally. Well, she does carry so much. I mean, we really, we've had to split tasks. But I think like what this conversation to me is really signifying is a real necessity of like, what parts do I need to know? What do you want me to ask about your life and what you're carrying? And then what is your area that you want me to stay? Is there an area that you want me to stay on it? - But no, I think just to kind of go back to what you were saying. I think what was so powerful about that moment, it wasn't the task itself because that was never my task to break down boxes or take the recycle out. I mean, yes, I've done it when you're out of town, but like, that's not my task. And so it wasn't that you took the task from me. It was that you reassured me that I didn't have to carry the weight of the mystery cycle day. I didn't have to add that to my list of all the things that I'm already stressing about. And that was, it was relief in that moment for you to remind me like, you don't put this on your plate. Don't put this in your mind right now. - Oh, okay. And then this is where couples will go wrong a lot. If we rewind this and it's a different couple, it's not the two of you dealing with this. What often will happen is how we'll miss each other and something little will turn into a big fight where she'll say something like, oh, you missed the recycling. And instead of him just saying, get out of my garage. Don't you worry about it. I got this. I'm sorry, but I got it. A lot of times it will be reacted to with defensiveness. I get it every time. What are you doing? You know, it becomes sort of like this protective response. And she's like, well, I thought you were going to handle it. And he's like, I do handle it. Like, I handle so much. I have so many things going on. I'm really overwhelmed. I'm stressed at work. Then it becomes this big conversation when all she wanted, most likely, was to be reassured. Yeah. You don't need to worry. I've got you. And I think sometimes we're just missing the simplest answer to take care of our partner. And we end up finding ourselves in this really nasty argument discussion. Yeah. Well, because I think it feels like, it feels like, of course, a criticism. Yes. But the problem, I think, is it feels like the woman is saying you're incompetent or it doesn't have to be the woman. But here's your incompetence reflected. Yes. And then it's like, and that's for both sides, we both done that sort of thing. I've got defensive of like, no, well, I know I'm all this stuff. Yeah. Exactly. Instead of just taking responsibility and saying, okay, how can we do this better? Exactly. You have a whole segment in your book on how the mental load impacts your sex life as a couple. Talk about. Go about it, sister. Talk about that. What are some of the main highlights when it comes to sex on the mental load? So it affects it in three, the mechanism by which it's affected is three ways. Okay. So the first is what I mentioned early on, which is that the mental load takes up a lot of space in our brains. And for the most part, I'm going to paint with broad strokes here. For women to be turned on, their brains have to be turned off. So when we're just, we just are full. It's like, we can't even like happen to our physical body. It becomes really hard to do that. And so it's hard to find our desire underneath all of the stuff weighing us down. The second thing is that sex is a vulnerable act. In our relationships, we really need to feel safe. And we need to feel care for. And so if the relationship is not doing well, and one of the ways it often won't do well is that a woman will be overwhelmed with all of this. She'll come to her partner. He'll be dismissive, defensive, or something I call the hardship Olympics. Or it's like, why did this? You do that. We've all done it. By the way, like there's no, yeah, like no shaming here. We've all done this. But that does not create a feeling of safety. So if that's her going to be outside of the bedroom, then you get in the bedroom and you're like, hey, she's going to not be able to tap into her desire because she's going to feel like, why can't I even talk to you? And I want me to be naked with you. Like what? There's a disconnect here. So that's the second way. The third is that when she might try to, I'm doing, she, him and her because that's usually how this goes. But when she tries to initiate the conversation around this topic, and perhaps he is kind of dismissive or defensive, sometimes she'll get louder and he'll push back harder or he'll completely disconnect. And now she's chasing him for this involvement in the relationship. He'll start to interpret all of that as criticism at that point, by the way. So now you're just like, she can't win. She can't ask for anything. But what happens is he starts to feel like another child to her. So it develops into this parental dynamic, which is not sexy. And for either of them, it's not sexy to have, you know, a nagging mother and another child. And so this all becomes really problematic for the couple's sex life. And I think a lot of us don't connect, you know, outside the bedroom to inside the bedroom. You know, we're seeing more of this on social or talking about it more, but it's so important. Yeah. I guess the other, oh, and there's this really interesting research study. So it's being studied more that found it's his common sense. Looked at women, how equitable they feel the relationship is and then their desire. And they found, you know, the more inequitable it feels, the less desire they have. Yeah, real revelation. But the interesting piece was, is that they went a little deeper and they just measured generalized desire. So what they found was that these women and these inequitable relationships still had desire. They just didn't have it for their partners. So it's not like it went away because a lot of us women, we sort of feel some shame, I think, sometimes about, you know, our ability to get in the mood. And what they've known was like, they still have it. It's just their partner feels probably very unsafe. Not like another, you know, like another child or the relationship doesn't feel stable. And so they're not in the mood with them. And I think if there's ever a need for a wake up call for our partners to like step it up or, you know, step toward their partner a little bit more, this is one of them. Wow. That's really fascinating research. So like my follow up question is in what way is she expressing that desire then? Like is she kind of escaping and fantasizing? Is there like an outlet where there's a breach and trust where, you know, she's finding another person either sexually or non sexually, right, to relate with and connect with? Right. We know that, you know, these all are potential relationship vulnerabilities, you know, because when these things are not being handled, when there's a disconnect in this part of the relationship, it's just, it's just another vulnerability. Yeah. True. And interesting too, generally like you're saying she gets more, more loud like pursues, he withdraws here though, with sex, she withdraws. He pursues. Yes. Yes. And so it creates a really nasty dynamic because you want her getting their needs. Yeah. Exactly. And she, I mean, with every pursuit he makes in the bedroom, she's likely getting more irritated. Yeah. Right. So it's, it's, yeah. Yeah. I mean, our one episode was on the sexual standoff. It's very much what, what develops. dynamic. Exactly. Yep. We'll link that one for sure. Go read that one. You talked really about how you shared a lot of real couples and their stories in the book. What's something surprising you learned by interviewing real couples for your book? Hmm. This one is tricky because I really went into these interviews wanting to make sure, sure. Wanting to make sure. So I'm insecure about it now. I got called out at a good dinner in front of everybody. Like, where are you from? I wanted to make sure that what I had been seeing through the survey data and then also just through interacting with clients in my Instagram community, I wasn't missing anything. Yeah. And that the patterns that I was sort of pulling out matched actually what people express as their experiences. So I think I was surprised that I wasn't surprised because they're, it all seemed to fit, which is, you know, the common struggle is he doesn't get it. He responds with defensiveness, which is the biggest. And I don't have a lot of attraction toward him anymore. We feel like roommates. I feel really lonely in my relationship. You know, some of these things that are really heavy and sad. And I think it's just such an important piece to really learn how to navigate well because I think a lot of times this can be sort of the beginning point of a wedge between couples that grows to be so big that they look back and they can't really figure out the origin of it. Yeah. I so agree with that. Because I see this all the time in counseling. It's just, and really they don't feel like they have each other's back. And then there's a lack of positivity because of that. Yes. So yeah. So
Just kind of a last question here. What could you advise? And besides reading the book, because I know that that will be a graduated revelation to a lot of people. But what is a tool that you can give people to kind of start that process of understanding? I'll give the big picture one, which is like the least sexy tool, but it's the most powerful, which is that yeah, I know. I wish it was like, "Razzle, dazzle a little bit more." But the tool is that you schedule a time to talk about it every single week. You know, it checks so many boxes. Number one, women are usually the relationship managers. And so not only are we taking care of everyone else now, we're like chasing our partner to schedule a date night or have that conversation and or to talk about the mental load and all these things. So when you share that responsibility by just having something on your calendar every single week, great touch base, that alone is a major lift. It's a major task off her plate. It makes her feel seen like you're together in it. A lot of times women too will carry this anxiety with them. Like, "Oh, I have all these things. I got a download." But like when is the right time? Because you know, the accusation of like, you never choose the right time. It's like, "No." So if you have it scheduled, it's a time where you can just, you know, we talk about, I know you guys probably talk about two, like relationship meetings. But you can even have a mental load meeting in my book. I call it a share. It's a share meeting. It's scheduled home and relationship effort. Where you come together and you just touch base. What's on our plates? You know, how are things? Are we feeling really fair? You know, I mean, I give a checklist of things that you run through. And it doesn't need to be anything massive. It doesn't need to be this big, deep conversation. But you're going to align for the week. So you feel like you're on the same page. Yes. Agreed. I agree that that is one of the best tools. It's changed our relationship significantly. We started doing it several years back. We'll physically literally look at the calendar together. Out of necessity. Yeah. I would also encourage if the man feels in the relationship, those that are listening, feels like maybe he's the one that's not tapped in. If he could be the one to initiate it. I think that would be thinking. Yeah. I heard John Maxwell say, and I love this idea. As he said, anticipation is the mother of initiation. And I was like, that's so good. So if you could, if you want good things to happen, you want to ensure it, like look forward to the relationship you're building. Initiate this. Like, no one in your mind is probably going to go, well, initiate it. And I think that really could change things. Oh, I recently, I love that so much. I recently put up a question box in my stories, asking like, what do you want most from your partner around the mental load right now? And a lot of them were just saying, I just want them to initiate a conversation about how we do things. And it's like that simple stepping toward and bringing it up and showing, oh, I've thought about you. I've thought about our family and how he function helps her feel seen not alone. And you get major bonus points. Huge. Huge bonus points. I love that. All right. Well, tell us where people can find your book. And we'll also link it in the show notes. But tell us about a better share. So it's called the subtitle is a little bit of a mouthful, but it's called a better share. How couples can tackle the mental load for more fun, less resentment and great sex. And you can pretty much get it wherever books are sold online retailers for sure. And then in person, some stores, you never know. So online is safer. Kindle audio. I read the audio. And I think one of the most deeply satisfying pieces of feedback I've received repeatedly is that men are really enjoying the book. Is that a friend's house recently? And he's like, I recommend to this to like three of my homies. He's like, my one friend called me yesterday. It's like, it's so good. And so I really wanted to write a book that invited men to the conversation. And that's been the feedback. It's like really helpful. And I opening for them, they don't feel like I'm being condescending. I even had one person message me. I think she shared the sun Amazon to do. But the book was just sitting on the counter. It's just like, I promised I wasn't being passive, aggressive, like, root this book. It goes, but it just showed up. I unpackaged it. I had to run errands. It's sitting on the counter. I come home and find my husband halfway through the book. And so I get what? That's a win. Yeah, I think it helps to put sex on the cover. So, you know, whatever gets you know there, it gets you there. But I think it really helped a lot of relationships. So yeah, agreed. Even in the couples that I've recommended the book to so far, I've had husbands say, like, man, that was helpful. I really got a lot out of reading it. Sometimes it's the most unsexy things that are the sexiest. It's true. It's true. They need a tattoo of that. At least a brain tattoo. Exactly. Thank you so much for this. This was, I think so practical and so needed. I'm thankful that you came up with the idea and made it a thing. Sometimes you could see as a thing. It's easier to like wrap your mind around it and rather than just a spot of disagreement and frustration. Right. Once it's a thing, it's something that we can link arm and arm and face together rather than each other being the enemy, which goes back to what you said. The framing of the mental load is the shared enemy. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So good. All right. Dr. Morgan, we're going to close out the episode. The way we close out all of our episodes. That's why asking you this question, go back to the beginning of your relationship and what advice do you wish you would have received and you can even theme it to what we've been talking about. But fill in the blank, dear young married couple. My husband and I have known each other a very long time. I'm not going to go back to the very beginning. I was 14 when we met. I say, dear young married couple, talk early on before kids enter the picture about how you want to share things around the home and family life. Get in a good habit of having these relationship check-ins from the beginning. I feel like personally for me, it took me a very long time to find my voice in my relationship because I wanted to avoid any sort of disagreements or tension. And so it's not like I escaped that. You just happened later on when we were busier and had more skin in the game. So I think when you tackle some of these things before life truly gets a very, very busy and stressful, you'll be kind of like have a head start as a couple. It's really good. It's true too. Yeah. Love that excellent advice. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you Dr. Morgan. Thank you. All right friends, we really hope that you got a ton out of today's conversation. And if you want help, if you want personal guidance with individual counseling or couples counseling or even help with you as a couple reaching the goals you have, just reach out. Give us a call at 916-678-1797 or shoot us an email at
[email protected]. No matter where you are in the world or in your marriage, we can set up a counseling session with you and we can work toward progress. We also post marriage advice regularly on our Instagram, which is @derealmaricouple and we'd love for you to join us in conversation there. All right, see you next week.
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