Mel at 100: The Mel Brooks Movie Rankings. Plus: ‘Scary Movie’ Is Terrifyingly Awful

I'm Sean Fantasy and this is the big picture and conversation show about Mel Brooks. On today's episode we are celebrating Mel Brooks who turns 100 years young this month Brooks is one of the signature voices in American movie comedy and we can feel his influence all the way to the top of the box office today with scary movie. We will talk about Brooks, his great works, his influence with Yassie Salik and Adam Naaman. But first let's talk about some movie news and scary movie right after this. Okay, Dobbins, this is like five weekends in a row, I'm like have you seen the box office at the top of an episode? Can I just have the privilege of doing what so many people who listen to this podcast want to do, which is respond in real time to the last episode, which was you and Griffin Newman. Talking about He-Man, and I got to be honest, I'm still working my way through the He-Man portion of it. Also, just so you both know, if you listen to the podcast and don't watch it, then all of the banter about the He-Man sword, which is not named, starts to get like a little suggestive, just so you know, the sort of power. The sort of power, sure, but you were holding things up and measuring things and there were no proper nouns. I was hanging out with my boy. And it was a little strange. That's okay. You guys were very excited about the box office, it's very cute. Two men who just love the box office. And I know. I know. It was like Henry and E.T. I know. I know. It was nice. It was nice. So I recommend people listen to that. We were kind of born to have that conversation. Yes. And I am not as excited as Griffin about it, but I'm excited. People are going to the movies. Yeah. Four movies this weekend. Yeah. Over $25 million. This just kind of feels like when we first started the show what things were like, where you were just like, oh, this is just how it is. Yeah. Movies are just successful. As they were in 1975, but they're really a huge part of American culture. And I went to the movie theater again on Friday to go see scary movie. And it was packed, packed, packed in the middle of the day. Mine was not packed in the middle of the day, but that's okay. There were people there, which is unusual and none of them were really laughing, but that's okay. Well, guess of that. We'll get to that in a minute. No, but I feel like parents at preschool and just the conversations that I'm having in the wild, people are like, hey, what do you think about this movie? What, you know, what's up with obsession? Should I see back rooms? Like, well, you know, it does seem back in the center of conversation, just in time for like a new Game of Thrones show to start again. But whatever. I'm enjoying it. Yeah. I don't think that this is going to be. I agree. Well, we can't guarantee is something like the amazing digital circus, a YouTube born animated series that had a film adaptation kind of continuation of its story, making $12 million to the box office. That's something that, like, Iron Long, to some extent, like, back rooms is, that's the new thing, right? And those things are much harder to predict and navigate. But what we know is coming, you know, Toy Story 5, Supergirl, minions and monsters, Spider-Man Brand New Day, Evil Dead movie, Moana Live Action. Like, I don't think any of those movies are going to bomb some of them might not be as big as we think they're going to be. Right. We might not enjoy all of them. No, definitely not. It's a fairly qualitative conversation, but a lot of this stuff is just going to be big. And so now we're looking at, like, maybe three straight months of, we're backness. Yeah. Feels good. I mean, it is summer, you know? And I do think on, on some level, we go through this every year and I would say you have an emotional breakdown somewhere at late March, early April, whether it's over quality or quantity. But the record show this did not happen in 2025. Is that because of the movies that were released or because of, like, personal growth and healing? I trained my soul. Just the rhythm of the show and the rhythm of movies and the never-ending award season, like, please, please move the Oscars early or we know you're not going to. But that, you know, there, there's a, a law and then summer and blockbusters and schools out and people get excited. This year, though, feels really supercharged. It does. And that is because of obsession and back rooms and really obsession, which I just is still, it didn't go up this week, but it pretty much 9%, it pretty much held. It's crazy. It's just crazy. I was, I interviewed Ari Astor at a screening predatory yesterday. You guys were wearing not matching jackets, but coordinated jackets and that was very cute. He was wearing a jacket that I owned and I'm so glad I didn't wear that jacket. Yes, you, because you've gone into Chorco in a variety of colors and Ari is also bringing that first spring to summer. It's a traditional season. Chorco, man as well, are, you know, the best. I love Ari. But and we had a great time and seemed like people loved seeing hereditary, but, you know, hereditary, as I mentioned last week is one of those movies that I think kind of kicked this off and I tried to kind of give him credit for it and get him to talk about it. Yeah. You know, he wouldn't claim credit for something like that, but this has been a 10 years in the making thing and obsession is just a crowd pleaser. I'll tell you, I heard from a couple of very prominent film figures over the weekend two who were like, this is real. This is the start of something really meaningful in the business, which I thought was interesting. I've been trying to like resist overstating the importance of these movies. When they say this, let's, let's, let's spend one of them specifically compared to the Bonnie and Clyde. No, no, no, to Easy Rider and said that this is Easy Rider, which is though obsession and background together obsession obsession obsession. Okay. Great. Which beautiful. I, I won't try to represent that opinion too strongly, because it's someone else's opinion. But that is the kind of thing that is being kicked in my direction. I think one of the things that's really interesting about Easy Rider, because I thought about this as I was writing about this stuff a couple of weeks ago, is that that movie applies a kind of looseness to something that was pre-existing. There were a lot of Biker movies that came in the 50s and 60s before that and that being explicit about drugs and drug use and drug selling in that movie and the kind of like, you're a there feeling of Easy Rider that almost has like a documentary quality to it is one of the reasons why it became so successful, it became like a hang, and obsession is not like that. Like, it's not, it can't be compared in that way. It's much more of like a spring loaded like thrill ride. Yeah. It's a very satisfying, exciting, fun movie to go see with a group of people or on a date. But you and Griffin were talking about that there is something, and it's not like, unpolished, but something, you know, like before us by us to the nature of the way obsession is made because it was made on a small budget by like young people that, but it didn't feel like studios and grown-ups were meddling. It's true. Um, and I do think that is happening in fact. And that is what's hitting, and that resonated with me. Yeah. I mean, it still doesn't explain why people, why the box office is going up week after week, it's really bizarre. We may never see this again. Yeah. Like, it is so rare and we cited the statistics last week on the show. I mean, this just doesn't happen. Um, and so it's really exciting. It does feel to me like obsession is going to end up outgrossing back rooms, despite back rooms opening at $80 million, which is fascinating. In that movie, now that the general public is getting their arms around it, they're not as into it. You know, they don't like it as much as obsession. I mean, that was my experience as well, but, you know, I think back rooms, what we saw that like the pre-sales tremendous opening weekend, there is like a very, very robust fan base, and that follows what is IP? It's a different type of IP that the back room is. And so they, they will show up. And it's the same as, you know, iron lung and the circus thing. There's a built-in audience. You tell them to go somewhere else, they go somewhere else, and they like really did with back rooms. But obsession is just a, is a fun time at the movies for, and not just for people who are already familiar with Curry Barker's work or, you know, hang out in like the YouTube comedy section. And it's still amazing, it's amazing to me that that level of word of mouth is inspiring this much money, and, you know, the profit margins or whatever. I mean, I'm not seeing any of the money, so I don't know why I care. But it is, it was going to be the most lucrative movie ever made. I mean, it's wild. I mean, it's a little hard to know with inflation and certain films that were made very cheaply that made certain amounts of money. But it's in that conversation for the most profitable mainstream movie of all time. And that's just astonishing. And you know, the other thing that is happening is masters of the universe, clearly quote unquote, underperformed relative to its, it being IP and the size of its budget and scale of that movie. It made about $30 million, which isn't horrible, but it means that it's going to be a bomb, for sure. Yeah. But scary movie made $55 million, and this was thought to be dead IP. This was thought to be something that we hadn't seen in a version of in over 10 years. And there's new version of the film, which reunites the vast majority of the original cast. And you know, all the way in's brothers are back and on a Pharisees back and Regina Hall is back. And you know, I thought the movie was absolutely terrible. Like, yes. Really just tremendously unfunny. And you said you're, seemed like your audience was not really into it. And mine wasn't really that into it either. But still, it opened so big. I mean, this, and maybe some of that is that the, you know, the presence of movie going having a boom contributed even further to it. But it was tracking well, you know, months ago, because there's such an awareness of this. And because horror has been so ready for a male brooksy and kind of look again, I mean, an amount of things that have happened from, you know, get out to, to Megan, to the Halloween reboot, to smile, to long legs, all of which get a look in the scary movie. And yet, I feel like the thing about scary movie that was really never funny and remains to be consistently not funny is one. Original Scream is very funny. And that's part of the appeal of Scream, is that it is an active send up of horror movies. And two, just recreating scenes from scary movies and making them a little silly and not scary, is not funny. - But people do like it. - I agree. But it's almost like it's come back around. It's not funny, but it's extremely marketable. And it is, it's taking IP to its, you know, illogical conclusion and then turning it back on itself. And so you, if you just want to go see like Marlon Wayans doing, you know, multiple scenes from centers, which they have used in the trailer. But at this point, it doesn't want matter whether the movie's funny because they can put out a trailer with all of the references that, you know, looks like an SNL skit. And people are like, oh, I know what that is. I recognize it, I guess, like I'll go see it. - I think you nailed it. It's so strange because part of why I think scary movie resonated, you know, way back when the original came around was because the Wayans brothers were younger than Wes Craven who made scream. And it was, that was a master kind of dissecting or satirizing a lot of the things that made him successful and that he rode the wave of in a, you know, the 80 slashers that pumped the genre up. And the Wayans brothers were like, they were the young guys. They were like, kind of upending a lot of the expectations, especially in scary movie two and three. And now the key in every way into co-wrote the movie 68 years old, I mean, Marlon Wayans is 53. Like, it's easy to forget 'cause he's still so youthful and still such a fun actor. But these are the old guys now. These are the veterans. So there's something weird about them like taking shots at smile and Megan and long legs and everything ever. One is K-pop demon hunters and movies made by younger people, you know, that represent, they are like, they are contemporary culture. And this movie isn't. And yet, I think that marketability that you talked about was very powerful. Was there anything about it they liked? - I was gonna say the one, the live stream scene, I did genuinely laugh at that. And possibly because that's like not a world as, you know, I'm familiar with the references, but I don't spend any time on live streams again. I'm 41 and I'm grown up. And so it just made me live streamed after the Academy Awards. And that's true. But there's something that once the comment section is running in on the side and they're just, you know, doing the sponsorships. We weren't actually doing any sponsorships. I'm available, Kampari, but like we aren't actually doing them built it. So it made me laugh. But otherwise, listen, whatever out of Ferris wants to do, I wish you were doing more than this, but I love her forever. - This isn't, I'm borrowing this thought from somebody else. I forget who mentioned it, but wouldn't it be cool to see a movie with Ana Ferris and Regina Hall that was not a scary movie? - Yes. - Like, you know, a regular comedy or a drama or something else. - She doesn't need to do a drama. Ana Ferris is very funny. It's about her. - What about costume drama? - Let her do something actually funny. - Sense and sensibility too. - Okay, we're getting that and I have a lot of feelings. - Yeah. - We just keep it moving. - Yeah. - It's gonna be work on from a man to spring to a man to fall. You know, you're talking about the box office in these movies, but let's, let's we forget Devil's product too is a fucking Titanic. - It's a juggernaut. - It's a huge movie. It's like an $850 million movie now, which is wild. Plus Project Hill Mary, which also is a massive movie this year. So there've already been a bunch of things along this way. - Yeah. - And, you know, I think a bunch of those movies I mentioned this summer are gonna continue to be big. - Did you get your Odyssey 70 millimeter IMAX AMC tickets? - I did, I bought two. In case you wanted to join me. - Oh, that's so nice. - I thought, well, I was making a joke about the whole ticketing system. And then, did you wait in line? What did you do while you were in the queue? Did it take longer or? - I'm sure I should. - Well, the longer shorter than the line to get tickets to the Canfield Festival. - Definitely longer, which is insane. As you know, I have very mixed to negative feelings about that whole thing. - That's right. - I did it just because like I like to have a second viewing of a big movie like that, especially with a crowd on opening weekend. Also, just in case we don't get a chance to see the movie before we record. I want to make sure we have something that we can go see as a backstop. I think this is-- - Did you get the tickets you wanted? Did you get aisle seats at a-- - I forget. - Okay. - I don't remember. - Do you know which screen you chose? - I think I had to choose Burbank 'cause other things were sold out. - Okay, I prefer that. - I understand. - Yeah. - I-- - Thanks for getting me a ticket, that's nice. - You're welcome. I don't want Taylor's, this to turn into Taylor Swift tickets. Like I-- - Yeah. - Movies are a democratic art form. Like they absolutely have to be to make sense. They should not be boxing people out. Like we're watching this with the NBA Finals right now. You know, like New Yorkers can't get tickets to the New York Knicks and the NBA Finals for the first time in 27 years. And that's not good. Obviously going to a basketball game is more of a privilege than going to your movie theater around the corner, but some of it is like there's not enough projectionists and enough equipment to account for enough 70 millimeter projection. - This is the other side of eventizing stuff. And it's worked. And they have eventized the format nerds. And I'm happy for all of you. - But it's alienating regular people who want to walk up and just buy tickets on opening night. And then you're like, well, I guess I can't go see the Odyssey until next week 'cause people can't just go see movies in the middle of the day. Like in LA, everybody can, 'cause people are actors and writers and they work these itinerant jobs. So people are seeing movies in the middle of the day all the time here. But in many places, that's not true. And what I don't, it's fine now, but it could get to a place where it's not good, where it feels like you're more, it becomes the hobbyist thing and isn't really a mainstream thing. And I'm just not in support of that. - Okay. Just on your, no, I agree with you. - That's my take. - It's just on your own time with your plastic. - Well, that's a hobby. - That's a hobby. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But that's up to me. - That's good. - I'm a man of free will. - I agree, I think we're making the perfect the enemy of the good on this stuff. But I hope everyone gets a chance to see it in the best setting possible for them. - Did you enjoy prepping for Mel Brooks? - Yeah, it was a lot of fun. - Yeah. - I mean, a great relief after some of the other prepping journeys that we've been on, where any of the movies you put on, even if it's not your favorite, you're just like, well, I'm not really mad to be watching this right now. - That's true. - And I don't feel bad about myself or the world. - There's something so wonderful about just the 11 movies too. - Yeah. - So many of these exercises that we end up doing are like, well, now you have to watch 83 films. And most of these movies I've seen many, many times. So let's just now go to our conversation with Yossi Solik and Adam Neymann about Mel Brooks. Okay, now we have two guests with us, Yossi Solik and Adam Neymann, two Mel Brooks fans, admirers, allegiance, fair to say, Adam, we'll start with you. Like, before I give the biographical snapshot of the man who turns 100 later this month, like, what's your relationship to Mel? - There's this scene in Space Balls where they open up the shelf and you see all the Mel Brooks VHSs on the shelf in the Space Ball one. And that was like our home VHS shelf. You know, we had all the Mel Brooks movies that kind of came standard issue in our house. And I watched them all over and over and over and over again. They're very formative. I imagine there's a lot of people my age or a little older for whom that's true, much less true for student age people now. 'Cause when I show Mel Brooks in class, they look at the clips in me like we are from another planet, which I wanna talk about later for sure. - I made a lot of notes about how do young people feel about Mel Brooks today. - Yossi, spoiler it is, it's not good. - Yeah, well, we can get there. Yossi, what about you? When did you dig in, what was your relationship? - I mean, it's very funny not to plug my own podcast bands plan if you guys are looking for some music content. But much like Madonna, which I just did a big series on, I don't remember a time pre-knowing Mel Brooks because my parents were big fans. And like I would watch blazing saddles with my dad of like five or six years old Space Balls. I've said it multiple times, saw it multiple times before I ever saw Star Wars. Star Wars one single time when I was 18. Yeah, a huge relationship. This was just like my parents comedy. My parents watched Get Smart in Iran. And like they were just all, this is like their kind of comedy. So yeah, I really grew up on all these Mel Brooks movies and I didn't realize how much they've like formed not just like my sense of humor, but like weird Tourette's things that I say in my mind. Like, oh, could be worse, could be raining. Say that all the time. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I forgot where it came from. - Yeah, he's a lexiconographer. You can like import things. What about for you? We don't have to talk about Mel very much over the years of the show. - Well, I wonder if my parents have seen a single Mel Brooks film. It's like complete opposite. I was raised in a sad household where we did not have this on VHS just Apollo 13. But I relate to what Yes, he said about it. Just like the Mel Brooks sense of humor and point of reference. And really how you engage with the things that you love, specifically movies, seems to have always existed in my mind and certainly shaped what I think is funny and how I understand things to be funny. But there's not a single moment where anyone sat down and was like, okay, here are space balls. I remember I was culturally aware enough to remember like the Robin Hood men and tights moment. And you know, at that point, he was obviously incredibly successful. I've had a lot of. of hits was a household name. And Robin Hood also kind of, you know, I knew what that was. But I think I probably saw them in snippets over time before, you know, I finally got my own blockbuster card and was like, okay, like, let's check this out. And so probably did like a second education as like a, you know, film history trying to catch up on what my parents did not teach me. - Yeah, I feel like I split the difference between both of you guys. Where some of the movies were a huge part of my childhood and were present all the time, but not all of the movies. So for whatever reason, young Frankenstein, space balls and blazing saddles were very present from like five to 12. And then on my 11th birthday, me and friends went to go see Robin Hood Menendites. That was a very memorable movie going experience. And I loved that movie. And, but I didn't, I didn't do the thing that I did with so many directors that I started to fall in love with around that time in my life and go back and look for life stinks on VHS or follow up on high anxiety. - Was that a co-ed birthday party? Are we gonna sing not? - It was, it was not. It was not. I've still never had a co-ed birthday party actually. Oh, I got a name and laugh, that's rare. Wow, I'm proud of that one. - I don't want to be reductive, but Adam, are you Jewish? - It wouldn't hurt. - Right, that's, that's, that's, that is a, that is a hovering piece of context where not just, I think Mel Brooks is humor, but his conception of his own humor, right? - Yeah, I mean, again, you don't have to be Jewish like Mel Brooks movies, but like my dad is Jewish. I grew up in it with a Jewish family. And I think it's like maybe a little more present in each house. - He's talked, he's, he's talked about that. He's talked about that ribred commercial, where it's like you don't have to be Jewish to enjoy it, but it wouldn't hurt. And his conception, I think of like what is Jewish? It's very kind of like pop cultural Judaism or a very kind of like 20th century American Borscht belt idea of Judaism to be clear, but like it's pretty important to the, to the movies, you know? - It is, but I think because so much of what he achieved happened before we were born or before we were really engaged, the way that Jewish identity informs American comedy makes it just comedy. And so, you know, my, I'm not Jewish, but I am from Long Island, I would say roughly 50% of my best friends growing up were Jewish, like I was very proximate to the Jewish experience. - Sorry I said I have Jewish friends. - I did, but I did and I do. And so this also, for characters to openly be making Jewish references in the comedy, and I was just watching High Anxiety this morning, and there were several of them even in that movie, which is coming from, you know, it's a parody of a British filmmaker who often worked with Wasp American Stars. And yet he's infusing a movie like that full of all these Jewish references. But I think because Mel Brooks becomes like, I think fair to say the dominant American comedic voice of the second half of the 20th century, like is that wrong? I feel like it probably is. - The dominant voice that then gets echoed by a lot of other voices, like whether they're copying him or they're re-echoing him or counter-pointing him, he's pretty important, and I'm sure we'll talk about it with our scrupulously researched chat, but these movies were huge hits commercially. Like they weren't just kind of hits for comedies. I mean, Blazing Saddle is young Frankenstein. These movies that finished in the top, like three or four in the box office in the years that they were released. I mean, that's pretty significant. He's kind of untouchable in that regard. - Yeah, I do feel like that middle period is the thing that often goes a little overlooked, and we'll talk about it here in this conversation, but just to put a little context around it. So, you know, Mel is from Brooklyn. He's born June 28th, 1926. I hope we're not cursing anything by recording this episode a little bit early to celebrate the centenary, but you know, he, there's a terrific documentary, a very long documentary about his life on HBO Max right now that Judd Apatow co-directed, that celebrates his work and kind of charts his life through New York, joining the service, eventually coming back and becoming a part of the TV revolution and working for Sid Caesar, and then eventually, as you said, get smart and forming this brilliant comedy partnership with Carl Reiner and all of this happens in the '50s and '60s before he becomes a voice in movies. And in fact, one of the things that the documentary does really well, I think, is show you how sort of not assured any of this was that like, it's kind of a miracle that he became this totemic figure that Adam was talking about. And I thought it'd be helpful to kind of try to figure out what it is that he does that is so special that I only really can comp to Mad Magazine, which is also something I really liked as like a 10, 11, 12 year old, where I brought my Mad Magazine collection to collection day and the fifth grade. I was like, y'all bitches can't fucking touch me right now. Okay, I have 100 Mad Magazine. - Mad Magazine, I was not allowed to subscribe to, but they did have it the library. And so I could look at it behind plastic coding in the library. And I would, I spent a lot of time in the library as a, as a preteen, we'll probably not surprise a lot of people here that. And I would just look at Mad, Old Mad Magazine's for hours and hours. And it had the similar effect of this where, on the one hand, I found that his comedy is parodying something that you know exists and you're laughing because you have a relationship to it, but then also to your space balls point. It's like a portal to something you don't know about and you're too young to experience. - Yeah. - So it, it almost informs you as to what you're going to be getting when you get older in a way that I found really intoxicating as a young person. I don't know, what do you think his comedy is about? - I mean, I think obviously it's satire, right? But I also, you know, I couldn't help but think now looking back. I didn't get it when I was a kid, but like how much it's about being other, you know? And it's not just the Jewish other. It's so much about race and class and like the brilliance of being able to like weave that into your like kind of dumb kind of edgelordy, honestly original edgelord Mel Brooks comedy is incredible at that time. - Yeah, I agree. What do you think? - Yeah. I mean, so much of satire and parody relies on like a deep knowledge and understanding and love or at least like real fixation on the material itself. And so, you know, to that point of when you're watching it as a young child and you're kind of learning about the structure of these movies and learning about the adult world through the parody. It's because you do have to understand it and like really be a nerd about these things in order to send them up in the way that he does. So I kind of received all of these as like a pop culture, you know, a cultural omnivore and someone who really consumes things and wants to like chew it up and make other things of it in the same way that I do or that my like my favorite filmmakers do. And you know, to Adam's point that many people since then, many people we also lionize on this podcast are like, okay, so what if I take everything that I love and mix it all together and then add in my own sense of humor. So I think what's so amazing about Mel Brooks is also how pop he managed to make all of it, you know, and that as you said, these were huge hits in the 70s and they are also like a deconstruction of, you know, cinematic tropes over the course of 50 to 70 years. Like it can, it's quite nerdy. - Yeah, I always, the metaphor I always think of is what if you took a piece of paper and ripped it up into 50 pieces and then tried to put it back together again. That's kind of what the Mel Brooks movies feel like where it's like, there's a puzzle component to it. It feels a little jagged around the edges. You're never gonna get it exactly right. And it's, you know, obscurity and the reforming, like there's something fun and funny about it. But what do you think about his comedy in general, Adam? - Yeah, like the two things, two distinctions that I think are fun with him. Like one is that unlike Mad Magazine, who he's a lot like, you know, like a lot of the times his movies feel like Mad Magazine panels, but they're three-dimensional in flesh and blood and all that and even the kind of Yiddish-y humor between the two, like, you know, Mad Magazine, that all kinds of, you know, old Yiddish names and sounds like you're clearing your throat. Like that's a lot of their comedy. But Mad was counter-cultural and pushed against authority. And I always thought, Brooks' movies kind of wanted to buy in. Like there was a lot more love than there was kind of, like, anti-establishment pushback. Like he wasn't making fun of a consumer culture, Pax Americana or anything like that. It was very, again, Jewish showbiz, which is like, I wanna be part of it and poke a kind of gentle fun at it. But also, he's in a juncture in film history where he's obliged to do that. Like the Marks Brothers and Abbot and Castello, all these things, they did make fun of Hollywood in real time. No one should think that parody got invented in the '70s or God forbid later than that. But some genres were just old enough that when he made fun of them in the late '60s or early '70s, it was really powerful 'cause then nostalgia for things like the Western, you know, which blazing saddles among other things is like a revisionist Western. They were doing all kinds of those in the '70s in a kind of serious way. It did it in a funny way. But he had a long enough frame of reference by the '60s or '70s and enough time had passed that he could kind of get away with this. But it was also very reverent. No one could watch Young Frankenstein and be like, "Oh, he hates these movies." That's where the newer ones get interesting, with like Spaceballs and Prince of Thieves and the Dracula one where you're like, does he like these movies? Or are these things that are kind of impinging a little bit on his territory? He doesn't seem to have the same effect on them. I can't wait to talk about this aspect of Spaceballs. It's why it's his most interesting movie for me, whether it's his best one, but we'll get there. - Yeah, that's an interesting way of thinking about it too. I feel that even when I watch the newer one. ones and I think it's his own fault because what happened is after his movies became such huge hits, the culture in serious filmmaking almost had to account for the fact that a Mad magazine or a Mel Brooks might be coming for them and so they this kind of like arch tone or ironic tone that you find in a lot of contemporary mainstream like big tent movies, Marvel movies, action movies, the kind of the wink that has arrived, I think he's kind of instrumental into that and so he becomes he doesn't be he's not he's not made obsolete by that move but it did make I think it made his it harder for his stuff to hit in the 90s and especially you know after that because and it's part of the reason why I think he pivots the Broadway which I haven't even mentioned but you know he has this third act of like extraordinary success with the producers and transforming the producers into a musical and he constantly has had to pivot away from his core successes because of his successes everyone catches up yeah yeah and so we can have like go ahead on but I was just going to say one other distinction that's interesting it ties to what you're saying because I love what you said about how people feel obliged to build the archeness or the comedy in because they don't want to be made fun of the other thing about Brooks is he does not care if people take him seriously or think he's smart and it's a big difference between him and Woody Allen who if I say his name three more times in the mirror he'll pop up behind us and talk about the nicks and and all that but like Woody Allen wants you to think he's smart he literally is like here's it just a f ski joke you know I've read Kafka those jokes in those Woody Allen movies not to derail the bucket they're not that smart they're just mentioning smart things and smarter filmmakers he wants you to know he only watches Felini and Bergman no Brooks is like no I watch westerns and I watch horror movies he's brilliant without acting like he's smart and that's really influential too it's a distinction between him and Allen who people used to compare all the time and who've had totally different filmmaking careers in the relationship to Hollywood and success and awards I mean Mel Brooks won an Oscar before Allen did but his movies weren't being nominated for best picture all the time you know so I just think that that idea between smart and brilliant or smart and intellectual is also a good thing to think about that I wanted to think about with Brooks which is like he really didn't care if people took him seriously to a point I think but he wanted to be liked and I think that's the distinction between Woody Allen right Woody Allen kind of had like a contemptuous posturing were like I relate to my king Mel Brooks so much as someone who also desperately loves and wants attention and to block that's with the positioning towards Hollywood and like it does come with a bit more honey you know then a little more prickliness than Woody Allen had I think it's really well put we saw it even at Cinemacon this year at 99 years old Mel Brooks made a video to as a companion to the Spaceball sequel that's coming out next year and he still has that kind of desperate quality to be loved and remembered and celebrated and if he's listening to this podcast thank you Mel you know we appreciate you you are loved just Mel listen to podcasts I don't know he seems pretty honest yeah he seems to be as fertile sharp as a tag yeah it seems like he has his kind of his finger on the pulse I mean even back to the Spaceballs and the changing of his comedy I think that was like a credit to him of like seeing how comedy was changing and allowing it to enter his space and like letting improv happen and stuff which was like sorry to cut you off Amanda but like I think that was actually kind of cool whether or not like it ended up continuing to work it's like he wasn't like so brittle about like it's my way or the highway right right I just I mean I hope Mel is spending his hundredth year you know doing doing other things really just I ask you want to be entertained he's listening to the Madonna bands playing nineteen hours yeah there's something I'm trying to remember which review it was but Pauline Kale said something like he keeps rabbit you by the lapels and telling you to laugh but it's the grabbing that's funny yeah yes like like it's not so much the way he says is all that funny but that enthusiasm to be like there's a jet like there's a neediness to it but it's also very generous and he certainly wasn't like judicious or skimpy with the jokes right I mean he predates like bizazz team and and but they took a lot from him just from that idea that he took it from other people to you know Mark's brothers but just joke density like if this one's not funny the next one of the next thirteen will be you know and and and and that when it's done well is why people watch the movies over and over and over again thinking about him as a as a filmmaker which is not a way he is discussed very frequently and I was thinking about what you were saying Adam where I do feel like his first three movies are actually a bit more socially minded I don't think he's necessarily showing off per se or trying to intellectualize aggressively but because of maybe just the time that they're happening and it is this countercultural moment they feel more like they are addressing something that is happening socially as opposed to I think more or less everything that happens after 73 where they feel kind of iterative to genre or something that he really likes and what like he just wanted to spend time making a silent movie in those movies maybe don't have as much on their mind but as a film director you know he's kind of janky at times like there's a kind of crudity to the way that he makes movies and even when he's like spending a lot of time on a hitchcockian uh dissection there's stuff in it where you're like oh wow he looked paid really close attention to the blocking or the camera movement and then there's other times where you're like the camera's just sitting in the middle of the room and like characters are walking into that frame and you know there is like a young man's quality to the movies that I think when you're a young kid maybe makes them seem like it's happening in front of you like it feels a little bit more simple that I maybe hadn't thought about as much until I showed space balls to Alice yesterday which is like kind of a mistake given the language um but we did this a comment it was also but Knox was like very afraid of certain parts of it which I thought was fascinating because he's not afraid of like the actual violence and real star wars movies but I guess it felt more human and more approachable to your point about you know it feeling when you're a kid that there's the line between you know it's a movie and you watching at home does feel uh alighted in his movies which I think is part of what makes them funny there is like a we're all in this together we're all in on the joke there's even a little bit you know to the warmth of these movies even when they are you know biting or glued or mean um there is as Adam said it's more about love than anything else but yeah it's definitely seems to my four year old like way more real and thus way more threatening to him yeah there is a grounded ness that like space star wars does not feel like space balls even though it feels exactly like space balls there's something uncanny about that well you we talked about technique one of the first things he made I don't know if we're gonna go film by film but did you guys all recently Sean pry has because he just sits and does this stuff do you watch the critic the short no short yeah not in the years I haven't seen this in years so it's like it's it's actually one of the more counter culturally minded things for it's like an abstract like a punitively like award-winning short animated film and then the voice of an old guy on the soundtrack which is Brooks we like I don't get this like what is this what are these lines what does this mean so the tension is between you know like technique and abstraction and symbolism and then like the regular person who kind of doesn't get it and if you watch it it has this wonderful quality of like it doesn't deny the fact that abstract art is good and enjoyable and that it might take a lot of talent to make but like the regular movie go over is kind of baffled by it and doesn't care it's a it's a wonderful balance because he's not putting it down I think I don't want to get it wrong on air but I think he won an Oscar for that or was nominated for it as a as a short and that's kind of like maybe a bit of a clue into how seriously he takes technique which is like I could do it if I have to yeah but there's something kind of slovenly where this stuff doesn't really oblige it which is why I think the best made of his movies again we're kind of jumping all over the place but when you talk about the one that doesn't feel like people are just plunked down and walking through him like young Frankenstein is incredibly well made camera placement and lenses and sound and sets I mean that's what people wrote about it at the time when you read reviews like this is like a perfect formal parody I don't feel that way about blazing saddles like being a western and I certainly don't think silent movie is like a great parody of silent movies but young Frankenstein is amazingly well made and kind of explains why he wanted David Lynch to make the elephant man that way because I think Brooks does love black and white and he has a certain respect for like surrealism and abstraction and expressionism even if it's not in his skill set to do it all the time he clearly respects it you know yeah I mean that's later but those later movies are horribly badly made yeah like Dracula doesn't loving it which I have a lot of affection for is very cheaply holly made that's the other strain of this conversation too is that he's not only like a very sophisticated artistic mind but that he's a huge part of film history because he produced several movies that are that are all time films I mean he had a hand in helping select filmmakers that we review now and talk about his legends of the form at fairly early stages of their career and pushing them forward and also not making those choices about him you know not being front and center around the promotion of the movie or you know he actually is a fearful sometimes of being a part of those productions because people thought they wouldn't take the film seriously but he had this incredible knack for you know working with Kronenberg and we're working with Lynch and you know you mentioned Francis to me yesterday so a razor in the well I'm not formally listed as a producer neither was he on elephant I know I know but you famously don't think women can be lead protagonists in film so - Yeah, I understand why you're saying that. - Yeah, I understand why you're saying that. And so I thought, the anecdote in his autobiography about what he said to the studio executives, but the elephant man, like he doesn't write it sentimentally, but it kind of makes me tear up when I think about it, where they gave all these notes and he was like, okay, yeah, we'll take your notes. And then he wrote them a letter back and he's like, thanks for this, but like we don't take the opinions of savages. We're not touching a frame of this movie. You people are barbarians, like I'm paraphrasing it. He had the schlep to kind of do that. You don't think of David Lynch as someone who needs to be protected, right? Because on Eraserhead, if anything, he needed to be protected from himself, because he made this insane movie the way he wanted to make it with no money. But I mean, the elephant man's a pretty mainstream production and the fact that it survived to whatever that final cut is like that, that is on Brooks and Lynch knew it, which is why he took every opportunity at every award ceremony. He had talked about Brooks in that beautiful story, if you guys know it, about the coat. Do you guys know that story? That. When Lynch was in England to shoot, it was too cold and he'd never coat. So Mel Brooks literally went to bottom this coat and he directed every day. And then it Brooks is a fire retro. Lynch still had the coat because he kept it perfectly in this chest of drawers and he was like, you know, like, Mel Brooks kept me warm, you know, stuff like that. I mean, how can you not love? Yes, he's going to cry. I literally cried so many times during the prep for this podcast. It's like, well, elephant man, the documentary. Any time I saw him on screen with Anne Bancroft, just. Anne Bancroft. Yeah. Yeah. He's a, like, back to our early conversation, he's a very sentimental person and a sentimental artist. And I think you picked that up through his work and also the way he lived his life. Yeah. And also, like, he's a singular performer and a singular writer, director. And yet, I think also defined by his great partnerships over the years. You know, his marriage to Anne Bancroft and they appeared together on screen. Because his work with Gene Wilder, which is just my favorite thing, like, in the history of movies, you know, like, Gene Wilder in the producers and young Frankenstein, I don't think there is a funnier person who has ever been in a movie. And, you know, he does this, like, over and over again. He finds people, obviously Carl Reiner, who he builds, like, huge emotional connections to incredible chemistry and repertoire. And it's so interesting because I've been thinking a lot about him as a star as we've been preparing for this. And to me, his least successful movies are the ones where he is the star. And he even talks about this. It's kind of explored a little bit in the documentary. This idea that because of that need to be loved and that sense of, like, living up to the moment and having this incredible ambition, you can feel him almost like overreaching beyond that. But when he trusts his instincts to lean on someone else, he makes this amazing work. And there is like a little mini tragedy inside of that, you know, where, like, I'm watching Life Stinks and I'm like, if this was a different actor with this movie, well, I have a contrarian view on this and I do not understand the Life Stinks lander. And my home, Life Stinks was a masterpiece and I still feel re-watch it. And I think people are unfairly harsh on it. I think it's a really good movie. I can't go that far with Yassie. But I do, and I agree with you broadly that the movie centered around him are not as strong as, you know, the producers or young Frankenstein, you know, or even blazing saddles. But at the same time, every time he shows up in, you know, the 12 chairs or blazing saddles or anything, my, but like, I perk up, you know, way. And there is something about his energy and, you know, almost like his cuddliness, which is such a weird thing to say about someone who is just making, you know, like a lot of dick jokes or related parts jokes throughout, that is so essential to, I think, both his specific comedy, but also that only he can break. And so to me, the movies are singing the most when he is there on screen. I don't disagree with that at all. I think Space Ball is a great example of that. Yeah. I think it's more like when he, when we're trained on him, I felt this way watching High Anxiety this morning. I was like, there's a lot, there's a lot of time with Mel. Yeah. There's a lot of time with Mel's fixation on these kinds of thrillers and his own, his own psyche and what he deems to be. Well, also just like a lot of psychoanalysis. Yeah. And once again, therapy does not make good moves, even comedies, but one reason that movie kind of fails is that Hitchcock was funny on purpose. Yeah. So when you're parodying him and when you're satirizing him, you're kind of just like emphasizing something that's already there. And I also think that his affection for Hitchcock and respect, they're almost too much for the movie to work. Like, you know, I would rather watch a Brian De Palma movie in terms of dealing with Hitchcock and High Anxiety. It's like too close and too long to nose and he's in it way too much but and reviews pointed this out. You know, when that movie's good is when he's just doing like a show biz playing, when he just sings a song. Yes. When he just sings High Anxiety for some reason, it's actually pretty good. Same with the tokamata scene and in history of the world, part one, where when he kind of just does like show biz, song and dance stuff, all the pretense kind of falls away and again, he's such an entertainer, you know? Well, what should we do? Should we talk about each movie? Well, okay. Before we do that, actually, I did want to mention you mentioned Zuckery from Zucker, apt-how obviously being one of somebody who made the documentary, like those are two very clear ares, two people who very saw themselves in his work and then tried to create their own things in the aftermath of that. You know, we talked about the scary movie at the top of this episode, that movie wildly unsuccessful, though it may be very much operating the same frame. One of the reasons why that franchise in general is kind of dumb is because it's doing what High Anxiety did one time, where it's just like has a lot of fealty to the original material to the point of it not even being a joke. But who else springs to mind that you think that he is correlated to or that like, I don't know, Adam, who are his greatest ares? Well, I mean, it's not just, it's not a direct heir, but it's an echo and he did a, you know, he appeared on it, which kind of cinched the link, but I've always thought that that idea of him as a portal to other things is very similar to the Simpsons. You know, that idea of there's a whole world and there's a whole universe of pop culture that kind of gets remade in the Simpsons image and there's a whole world that's kind of remade and notebooks his image and those overlap a little bit. And I love when he was on the Simpsons, he's driving, Homer's driving around for some reason. He says, I saw that movie Young Frankenstein scared the hell out of me. You know, it's great. It's a great, it's a great Simpsons line. But he even there kind of alludes to the 2000 year old man and his stick. He just, I mean, always Simpsons guest voices are good, but he felt particularly game, you know, that was like a particular game, recognized game in terms of showing up on something that's kind of, you know, a kindred sensibility. But I think he mentioned some of the big ones and the Judd Apatow one for sure. I think he's someone who has a lot of reverence for Brooks. I feel like I see tendrils of him in so many things that are like just more specific. He loves sign comedy, which I love, like I love the when you're rewarded for watching. And there's just like a funny like signage and that's everywhere. That's in the Simpsons. That's in all of the parks and rec, you know, and various franchises. That's in Widow's Bay, which is on now. You really are rewarded. There's just a funny newspaper clipping. It's all over Mel Brooks's stuff like or like, even like, oh my god, what's his name, the family guy. So it's on the Farlin. Yeah. Yeah. Mel Brooks' thing to like take things a little too far, like the farting scene and blazing saddles. That's all over Seth MacFarlane's work, you know, like I think he has like certain flourishes that certain people just took and put into their work and they might not be like direct airs. But his fingerprints are all over like so much of the comedy I've watched since I was a teenager. Yeah. I was thinking about, um, Seinfeld and Larry David too. And just that like that idea of the assimilation of the Jewish experience just into a social experience, a cultural experience and like that tonality that those shows have is very, very similar to a lot of the Mel Brooks sense of humor. I don't know anything else. You could also, you can also use him to explain why other things aren't funny. Like the producer, like the producers is a good thing to use to explain why Joe, Joe Rabbit sucks so much. You know, like you can use, you could use things that Brooks has worked on to see people who've kind of learned those lessons wrong or who come at it from places that don't have whatever we want to say is good about Brooks either the warmth or the affection or the width or the, or the innovation because I don't know, like oft imitated, not duplicated as a cliche and it's not quite true of Brooks, but his best work has aged well. And there's a lot of filmmakers, even noncomic ones from the 70s where that's not true. And yet the paradox, which we'll get to later is I can't speak for all Gen Z people, but I do teach at U of T and I use Brooks clips not to teach about Mel Brooks, but I use them for like my film economics class, like the producers and space balls because I think they're so lucid as parodies of the industry and they go over like crickets. And I'm like, do you guys find this funny at all? They're like, no, it's interesting. It's not funny. So, like, why is that specifically, and I feel that that's, I don't, he's not a very sexy contemporary figure of inspiration for comedy or really for all that much. And I think some people are surprised when they go back and especially look at the first three or four movies, there's a real like real artistry in those first few movies that I think surprises people, but maybe it's not funny enough. Do you know those kids reaction videos like kids react to Nirvana or kids react to zero mustell? Like, like, what, like kids react to zero mustell in the, I must say that, I must say that's the one that goes over the most like a lead balloon because just the acting style is so manic and crazed and unsuddle and maybe even that doesn't go over so well because it's a movie technically, I mean, not technically, it's about Broadway rather than about Hollywood. But even the Star Wars stuff, I'm like, he's making fun of marketing within his own movie. the closing gap of VHS windows and Star Wars being all about merchandise. I mean, maybe it just hits too close to home and they're like, that's not funny. Or I don't, I resent the implication of that being funny, but it's, it's very funny. You think it still plays or no? I mean, I don't know. I have not sat with a Gen Z person and watch blazing saddles, but I wonder if that would hit a little harder for them. I don't know. I'm good or bad though because it's so good. Well, yeah, it depends, it depends how they feel about certain things. Sure, sure. Yeah. I was thinking about this when we're watching the movies. When, at the very beginning of the producers, when Xerima's telling Chen while they're having that first conversation and he splashes the water in his face, and he's like, I'm what? I'm wet. And then he gets slapped. He's like, I'm in pain. That's like such a primal gut busting. I didn't see that movie when I was six either. I saw it maybe as a teenager. And so I don't know if I'm like hang, I'm not hanging on a nostalgia with it. I actually think it's very funny. It feels transferable to the future, but I could see, I don't know, something like silent movie, just not making any sense to a contemporary audience. Like there may be being some ability to focus on that story and maybe not understanding the reference points of like, what does it mean to get burnt Reynolds and James Khan in a silent movie impossible. Yeah, look at the screen long enough to know what's going on. I could barely look at the screen. And the pacing and just kind of the way that you interact with a movie is so very, very different. I'm surprised to hear that like some of the actual jokes just don't transfer to younger kids. They might just be so bored by the other two and a half hours of the after. I wonder if I'm having like a reality bites moment where I'm like someone needs to define irony for me right now. But like, are we just so irony-pilled? Are the newer generations like what's funny as irony always? Like that's like the standard of humor. And like it's not super ironic. I think it's broad. And there might be as many to the broadness. I do think that there is a real broadness to most contemporary comedy too. It's shorter. Well, I was gonna say when you were described like the manic style is too much for young people as if like everyone on YouTube is not absolutely just manic yelling like all directly. And it's obviously slightly different. But it's not an energy or even, you know, like a satire type thing. Like people are yelling at the screen all of the time to 20 year olds, you know, and they mean it. I think it's because it's not very young. Many of the heroes of his films feel like middle aged people. They don't, it doesn't feel like youthful and exuberant in that same like 45. Right. He looks amazing for 99. But he looked 45 when he was 25. Yeah, I don't know. That's an interesting observation. I mean, I literally put that in the notes. I was like, are these movies aging well? And I don't mean that in terms of like the political correctness or anything like that. But more like, do they have the same level of cultural energy and celebration that's something like, you know, like we just did 2001 with Spielberg on the rewatch balls. And that is a movie that out here, if you run that movie on 70 millimeter in a movie theater, it will sell out. Like it, it has a kind of like film school cult quality to it that like, I don't think Blazing Saddles does. And if you put Blazing Saddles on 70 millimeter, I'm not sure if it would sell out at least not as fast in the same way. I wouldn't, does that make sense, Adam? Yeah, and I can't remember the last time Mel Brooks played in Repertory in Toronto, whereas they played 2001, you know, they played 2001 all the time. I'm thinking of including Blazing Saddles and of course, I'm doing this fall on Satire. I really am, like not just saying it because we're on the pod because the intersection in that movie of, you know, like Jewish humor and black characters and re-evaluating the Western. I mean, at the time, that was such a conversation piece. And I don't know how you would talk about it now. The question of like, are those his jokes to make? Are those his words to use good questions, by the way? And fair questions. And it's not like people are only asking them for the first time now, but they asked them differently when that movie came up. If you read the reviews of Blazing Saddles, then it was very, and I'm not saying these reviews are right. The people are like, this is vulgarity punching up against racism and intolerance. And this is a movie that's trying to deal with something that's kind of like absent and that pressurizes those old Westerns, which are very white and which have a certain attitude about black characters and about Native American characters. He was kind of seen as being on the side of the good guys if not like a doctor and air leftist, you know. You watch Blazing Saddles now. I don't know if people are going to be able to get past just the spectacular incorrectness of the language. And I mean, that kind of might be fair enough, but I want to show it. I just I kind of just want to show it to see what a roomful of kids are going to do with it. This episode is brought to you by State Farm, up sizing to a large popcorn, smart move, staying for the post credit sequence, smart move, finding ways to be financially savvy, very smart move. Maybe the smartest, especially when you choose to bundle home an auto with help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents, bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Covered options are selected by the customer availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility, vary by state. Let's talk about the films. Yeah. Adam, I will be making you rank things, which is one of my favorite things to do here. I love ranked things. My second favorite thing I do on the podcast. You don't like to rank things either? I hate you know that about me. That's great. I love it. I love it. You know why? Because it's fake. No, it's great fodder for discussion. It gets you to express your feelings about things, to communicate about what isn't isn't good. I mean, we can go through the films chronologically, and I think we've just had like a very healthy conversation about blazing saddles and kind of what it means and how it changed things and, you know, as we're going through like the orthodoxy of the end of the Western at the center of Hollywood, that it arrives at a good time. But you know, it's first movies, The Producers. And as you said, it's a Broadway satire, although played straighter in the first half than I had remembered when I revisited it. And then much more outsized than the second half. So it gets the production of the show, Springtime for Hitler. It's still funny. It's still funny. I found this movie to be way more polished than I remembered, especially having watched some of the newer films before going back to this. And it definitely does not feel like a first time director to me. And part of that is maybe because he's got this incredible cast around him. And the idea is just so fully conceived. Like it is like arguably his single best idea for a movie. And it is one of the very few movies of his that is not directly referencing another movie just like it. But it also has all of the language of the Busby Berkeley and the older musicals that have like an actual visual reference and probably lend some of that polish just by okay. So if we recreate Springtime for Hitler and, you know, and make the spinning thing into a swastika, then, you know, like we have some film language and we also have some jokes built in. So I think that I think that helps with the polish. Yeah, I think so too. And it's like it's also backstage musical that way too, where you're like watching the construction of something, which is also a lot of fun. I don't know. How do you feel about the producers now, Adam? It's great. And he had, I mean, what Amanda was saying is so true, but the film language and you go one level more, which is that it's Lenny Reef installs film language too. We have Lenny Reef install in Busby Berkeley are on a similar wavelength, formally speaking, you know, that idea of like a mass spectacle and that idea where, you know, you can bay ideology through imagery. So like he's making fun of Busby Berkeley, but he's making fun of Lenny Reef install once removed in the Springtime for Hitler thing. And also, again, you don't want to just keep playing the card like, oh, you had to be there. None of us were there in 1968. But when you think about the fact that that's only 20 years after the mid-40s and after the end of World War II, it is not insulated by all these iterations of Nazi humor, like an allows me movie like JoJo Rabbit, where there's just so much space that he's kind of, you know, drawing with and drawing from. I mean, the producers is in there 20 years later, which is one reason why it was so shocking, like the shock in the movie gets mirrored by the shock that the movie kind of caused. And it kind of bothers me that the Broadway musical is so successful that it's made all that feel safer. Again, I mean, good for him. I think that musical made him richer than any of his movies. But the original movie's pretty stark and pretty startling, you know. It's not that cuddly or cute. And it's not wildly successful at the time, but it does win him an Oscar. Yes, yeah. Which is, I saw the documentary. It wasn't an actor took out like a full-page ad. Was it about this film? It got like two really bad reviews. And then, my god, I wish I remembered who the actor was a very famous actor, took out like a full-page ad and was like, this movie is amazing. You guys all need to go see it. And then the word of mouth started to spread. And then it shifted and then he won the Oscar. Sorry that I can't. Sorry to write down. Was this one of the VHS tapes in your house as well? Like, did your parents like this one? No, the producers and the 12 chairs were like not present. Yeah, same for me. These movies were not made available to me when I was really young for whatever reason, but like good. The producers I suspect will end up in the in the top five of our rankings, but we can come back to that. The 12 chairs is a really interesting movie. Definitely did not see this until much later on in life. And it is, I think it's the forgotten film in the in the Brooks Filmography among the 11 movies. It's an adaptation of a 1928 Russian novel. And you can see him like reaching for something here after the ultimate success of producers that you were just talking about. And maybe not quite being up for the challenge in a way, but it is, it does feel weirdly in the tradition that he does follow through where there's like a certain kind of story archetype that he falls in in love with. and then kind of wants to pull apart and make fun of. You're gonna defend, you're gonna step in? - No, no, no, I'm just like, could anybody step up to the challenge of like making a buddy comedy of Bolshevik Russia? Like, I just don't think it's like, it already was sort of doing, it's rough, you know? And like, to Amanda's point, like, when he's on screen, it's like magical, but like, just the storyline is just not fun or that funny, you know? And there's funny moments, and Franklin go, oh, really a hot step. - I knew you were gonna say that. - Yeah. - And that, a fandal had that. Like, I could have put money on that. - Yeah. - You guys being into Franklin Jell at that time. - But it's so hot. - But it's because it takes a minute to place it, and like, you know, he's in it and then you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait a second. - That was his reputation at the time. He was in his time. - Sure, he was in his class in Dracula. - To the D generation, you know, it's very different. - Right, I didn't kill him, he's a normal person. He's a regular person. Thoughts on the 12 chairs, Adam? - I mean, it's not when I watched over and over again. It's a little bit of a forbidding context, 'cause it's a literary adaptation, you know, it came out before Woody Allen did Love and Death, with, you know, like those two movies are very parallel in terms of trying to like, tangle with, you know, modern or almost modern, modern, you know, the pre-ear or modernist literature. I mean, I think it's funny. It's very convoluted and blustery. I'm also not a huge Dom De Louise fan, which is hard with Mel Brooks, 'cause he always has Dom De Louise on hand. I don't dislike Dom De Louise. He's pretty domineering in the film. I think Langella won a big acting prize for that movie, was a national board of review or the New York film critic circle. I mean, he's great. - He's fabulous. - Yeah, Dom De Louise a little big. (laughing) - I mean, there's a certain kind of physical archetype too that Brooks kind of returns to over and over again, where it's like, the round guy, the skinny guy, the kind of kvetching girl. Like, he has like a series of strategies that he's deploying in a lot of these movies. 12-chairs, not one of my favorites. - Oh, you guys are being mean. I mean, I don't think it needs to be in the top five. - It's fine. - It's fine. It's not Terry. - It's worth seeing. - It's worth seeing. And to me, like, exemplifies that Brooks thing that we were talking about of, you don't totally understand the source material until you see the movie and you're like, oh, you know, the Russians, I was never fully schooled in the Russians, you know? So I try my best, but I appreciated having this as a little bit of a cheat code. - I mean, we, brothers, Kara Monsa, then you'll enjoy it more? - No, no, I think now, you know, now that I've seen 12-chairs, I should go back and be like, oh, I see what they're trying to do here. - Okay. - 'Cause the ending is quite beautiful and touching, and I had to tear up a little bit. And I mean, I think it's definitely worth watching. I think it's, you know, it's worth watching if you want to understand Mel Brooks, 'cause I think it's a through line of all of his moon and all, but many of his movies is like, he does care about upending things he doesn't believe in. Such as communist Russia. - Yes. - And so that's important, at least in understanding his, you know, orientation towards the world and his politicalism or whatever, that's not worth it. - Yeah, you guys are all saying bottom half. That's fine. I'm not advocating for it at number one. I just, you know, you're a classics major. You know, like you're going to bat for the great works. I get it. - But I wasn't a Russian literature major. That's what I'm saying. So I appreciate 12-chairs. You know, we all need our cliff notes. - Yeah, I think it's also a minute from this. It's actually my important movie that gets him to say, maybe don't take yourself too seriously, you know? Like maybe like, let's think about something more lizard-brained in terms of what people think is funny. And he like, he learns this real discipline working on the TV shows, on your show of shows and doing late night talk show or, you know, tonight show appearances or Ed Sullivan appearances or Jack Parr and Steve Allen and honing the 2000 year old man stuff. Or like, he knows what gets people laughing in the room. And Blazing Saddles to me is like the ultimate example of like, I know what people think is funny. And there's certain things that no one's ever been able to do in a movie and I'm going to do it. And some of it is about, um, scatalogical humor. Some of it is about like sexual desire. Some of it's about race. Some of it's just about repeating things that, you know, corn, pewn, cowboys say in movies and putting a funny bent on them. But I don't Blazing Saddles, I think, hits like a lightning bolt because it seems so obvious. And it felt like nobody had ever really done this before. There were Western comedies before this. There aren't like a lot of lighthearted Western movies in the 40s and 50s, but maybe not quite as severe as this one. So I think the reason why this is, this isn't my favorite Mel Brooks movie, but it feels like it is the movie that people who are older than us always bring up first. Yeah. I think that's the most important. Sorry. I think it's the most important Mel Brooks movie because I think-- I was going to say the same thing. Oh, yeah, because just the intersection of like, well, he didn't write it, which is interesting. But he brought in this writer's room. He has Richard Pryor as a writer. He could tell your class that if they start to get angry. But like, it's, you know, he's really making commentary about important things. And it's not just race and others. And it's about capitalism, right? It's about this greedy thing trying to, you know, oust this town and these people not knowing what's good for them. And how power operates. Yeah, and how they're still punching down against, you know, this black sheriff who is trying to do what's good for them. I think-- and it's really fucking funny on top of it. I think Madeline Conn and it's one of the greatest performances ever. We were talking about people who he had good relations with. She got it. She understood the assignment. I think she like created the assignment and then he like wrote the parts for her. But I mean, no, the sense of resentment in that town towards the new sheriff and the way Cleveland little plays it, like just the degree to which he is flustered by the task of just existing daily and dealing with this and trying to deal with these people and be better and chin up and head high and all that. It's funny. And he also, all the broad, you know, all the fart jokes and all that. They have some wonderful heightened jokes in there. Like Mongo only, only pawn in game of life is probably the best line in any Mel Brooks movie. It's the one I use the most in my daily-- in my daily life. We're all, we're all only pawns in the game of life. That's it, that's it, that's a great line. Also, where are the white women at? In front of the KKK, it's funny today. I think I still think you're Gen Z would think that's funny. Like I'm pretty, I would guess Richard Pryor wrote that line. He was supposed to be that character, you know? He was, yes. It's crazy. Yeah, yes. But it is also, and two, it's credit like still really bracing some of this stuff. Even now you're like, wow, can't believe that you guys did this and this got away with this. And I'm like, I'm laughing because I know what you're going for, and I'm also cringing, which, you know, is powerful and works. And the other thing about this is that it was a massive hit, which, you know, I mean, that's significant when we, like, do the history of it all. But also, I just want to say another instance where Madeline Khan does the singing number, you know? All of these movies, at some point, you're just happiest when someone's doing a song today. You're doing like Marlene Dieter in a clay. Very, very funny. Yeah, I mean, I set-- So a movie comes out in '74. This is the first of two Brooks films in '74. And the number two movie at the box office this year's Blazing Saddles made $45 million. And the number two movie at the box office is Young Frankenstein. Number one. Excuse me, number three. Number two, number three. OK. So-- It's a great idea for him. This has basically not happened before. I mean, maybe Steven Spielberg in 1993, you really, there's-- it's hard to find years where someone-- You were on a podcast with him, right? I was. Yeah, I was just helping filmmaker. I'm very excited. Yeah, Sean calls him Steven now. Steven, yeah. Yeah. Doesn't that-- Well, I mean, Young Frankenstein-- Young Frankenstein's, I mean, I don't want to-- that will be my number one, where it'll be close to it. That's an amazing film, to me. Yeah, it's-- Discipline-- The discipline of some of the-- not all the performances, because like Marty Feldman, I can go either way. But while-- How dare in that film? I'm sorry. What happened? That man is a genius. Wilder, Cloris Leachman, Terry Gar, and especially-- not especially, because they're all good. But Peter Boyle in that movie is brilliant, as a physical comedian, as a voice, and as a body. I mean, you know, that's one of the best-- one of the best Frankenstein monsters performance ever, comedy or not. Yeah, unless we forget Gene Hackman as well, please. Yeah, Gene Hackman is a part of the blind man. Because he won. I mean, put in all the rents, came on in my adult beginner ballet class yesterday, and the way I couldn't stop laughing. Because I'd just watched Young Frankenstein. Do you ever see the Bob Baker performance where they do the puttin' on the ritz? Like, they do the local marionette theater here in Los Angeles, where we take our children sometimes. Does it like a Halloween special? And one of the segments in the Halloween specials, they just recreate puttin' on the ritz from Young Frankenstein, as part of it, and they have the little Peter Boyle Frankenstein marionette, which is wonderful. Yeah, this movie-- I think this is probably my dad's favorite movie, or one of his favorite movies, he definitely showed this to me at a very young age. Another thing where there's all this kid's content that becomes portal to horror stuff, too. And I think this is another movie, too, if you see it at a young age. And then you start to see some of the benchmarks, like the tools that people use for horror movies. But it's not scary, really, for the most part. And so seeing this at a young age, probably also pushed me into that stuff. But it is still just like laugh out loud, funny. While they're, again, it's like, all electric in this movie, his energy, and his frustration with the world, and the way that he's constantly, you know, Frankenstein and all that stuff is so funny to me. I don't know, I-- That's another comedy thing that's curious, you're like, I feel like 30 Rock had so many jokes that were like mispronunciation, I've been named. Oh, that's 30 Rock's The Great Coke, Mel Broca's inspiration for you, too. I think about, also, the signage or whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah. I used to, I used to, when I had really bad anxiety, I used to carry a CD. in my car of Gene Wilder's fresh air appearance. And it was like, it would soothe me. It was like my. - He's such a sweetie pie. He was just perfect, perfect man. - I know, I really loved him. - So we love young Koreans. - Yeah, young Koreans are the big favorite. I think for many of the Mel Brooks heads, this is usually right near the top. - Well, it's, it's the best achievement, like it's in basic filmmaking on its own without you know, and because there are so many Frankenstein movies, like it's, I guess it is a satire, but it is also just like another installment. And there's, there's something about young Frankenstein is so successful to me and knows its material so well that then the later Frankenstein movies I see, I'm kinda like, do we need it? I kinda think we already have it. - Yeah, I. - But that's because it seems on its own. - Totally at his best, he could do that. Right, he could kind of detonate a genre for a long period of time and make it not remakeable. - Yeah. The word with that one I think of is it's very disciplined, which is an odd thing to say for a movie that's so insane and not everything and it works, but the formal, the way the camera works in that movie and the way the sets work, and especially Boyle's performance, the discipline is amazing. Okay. - What kind of ballet are you doing to put it on the ritz? I mean, that's just kind of uptempo, you know? - It's a dance. - It's a dance, a dance, a dance, a dance, a dance. - Do you wear it a jazz? - We were doing, you know, moving our, like it's like an exercise. - Oh, like Tondus? - Yeah, Tondus. - Okay, great, yeah. Learning ballet. - Thank you guys for asking. - Tondus, as it said in my family. My husband, Red, that was in charge of reading the ballet book and we got some wires crossed. - I was just in a ballet recital yesterday for my five year old ballet is on the brain. - She's probably better than me. - I doubt it. 1976, so after coming out of this year, you'd think that this person could do anything that they want. I mean, he really is at the absolute top of Hollywood and this is one of the biggest blank check movies of all time to make an homage to Silent Cinema in Silent Movie with Marty Feldman and it's a weird movie. It's like, I think it's really well executed but not very fun to watch. And especially if you've seen it before, it feels very long to me. - Yeah. - And maybe some of that is just not having to just want to sit through Silent Cinema at a certain point. - I can't know anymore if my brain damage from having an iPhone for so long and the erosion of my ability to pay attention. I don't know what it would have been like to see this movie in 1976, I just can't understand. That people had a way different relationship to sitting and watching a film that takes place almost exclusively you have to watch, so I don't know. - I think to Adam's point about placing saddles or the producers being close to World War II, like this is still maybe 45 years removed from the height of Silent Cinema, so it's not as far away, but I don't have a problem watching Chaplin now, but this movie because it's so gimmicky, it doesn't play as well. It's very clever and it has a great energy to it. What do you think of it? What do you make of it, Adam? - I'm gonna argue, well, not argue. I mean, no one's comparing him to Jacques Tati as a filmmaker, right? But when Tati does something like this in play time, it's a master filmmaker. He's doing it, there's like a social point and it's the language of Silent Cinema though being like a pastiche of Silent Cinema. I would rather watch Silent Movie than the artist, you know? But so much of Mel Brooks' humor is verbal. So much of what he's really good at. If we're talking about what he's an all-timer at, it's verbal, it's voices, it's intonation, it's delivery. It's kind of perverse that he gives himself this challenge and Tati's point, 'cause you're so right, yes. He about like background, signage and psych guys, like that is part of his arsenal and he gets to do a lot of it in Silent Movie. But he's not Blake Edwards when it comes to staging party scenes and he's not Jacques Tati when it comes to physical comedy. I just think the movie suffers from the fact that it's not really the things he's best at. They're pretty good. It's affectionate. I don't doubt that he wanted to make it. I just don't think it's that funny. I did not feel like rewatching it for this at all. It's not only worth watching just for the Ann Bancroft Marty Feldman eyeball comedy, 'cause that is really funny. She does an amazing job. She's very game. I think also if you're not as in the Marty Feldman and not as in the Dom Deloies, go out with pretty essential to the movie. I think the celebrity cameos are fun. Yeah, it's fun. James, fun to watch. But you could also, you could just watch clips of it and not watch the whole thing, which becomes more of an issue as you move on in Brooks' filmography and it works in concept or some of the ideas are funny, but it doesn't work as a movie movie. And then I mean, Adam's right. You're just cutting him off from his voice. That's half of his skillset. There's a great Marcel Marso bit, though. That joke still plays really well to me. And just watching Marcel Marso do his thing for 30 seconds in the movie is so wonderful. We're just trying to come into the room that is blowing the wind through the windows. Fantastic. But that almost to me wounds the movie because you're like, this is a silent comedian and you guys are not silent comedians. And there is a kind of skill here. That you're platforming in the middle of the movie that makes us feel like the rest of this isn't working quite as well. I appreciate the effort. Didn't go over as well. This is two previous movies either. You know what else we didn't mention? Maybe because it was too close to his work as Naked Gun and Police Academy. Yeah, Zucker Abrams. Yeah, those guys airplane and top secret and the Naked Gun Films and scary movie. I was thinking of the shower scene. Yes. That to me is like so wonderful. That was great. The were a tall man for Reynolds, knock knock. Or just a big tall man in a coat. Yes. That is a good stuff. Yeah. Again, if you're trying to educate yourself, it's definitely worth watching. It is like, I watched this movie 20 years ago and I watch it today. And I was like, I don't know if I need to be watching this right now. High anxiety, we've glanced at it a couple of times. This is one year later his homage to Alfred Hitchcock thrillers. And is I would say fairly loyal to the way that a lot of them play out, you know, you can feel notorious and spellbound. And I think a lot of those 40s movies in particular, a little bit of North by Northwest, Adam, what do you make of high anxiety? It's not my favorite again. I mean, again, he's caught. He's caught between affection and reverence and just a kind of cheesiness. And the fact that Hitchcock was funny in the first place. There's individual gags in it that are very good. That's the one where the orchestra is actually playing the score, right? When you go buy in the bus. When you go buy on the bus, which is extremely funny. Remember thinking the shower scene is very disappointing given that you have the shower scene is one of the funniest, like it's one of the greatest scenes in movie history. And like, oh, what's Mel Brooks going to do with this? And it's just like this very pent-up thing with a rolled up newspaper like that's not great. That's not great. Like that really made me laugh. I was like, very loving, and man, you're really not, you had one moment on screen and you were like, I will make them remember me. I love it. I love Robert Ridgley as the flasher at the beginning of the movie too, which is just really almost like seems like the pretense for the colonel and boogie knights. I think there's like some sort of correlation between those two characters. I like it. What do you think? I like it. But it's another one where it's like, oh, OK, you're doing psycho. Oh, you're doing North by Northwest. Oh, OK, there's the, you know, the vertical movement. Oh, OK, it's the birds. And apparently use the same bird wrangler as Hitchcock did himself. This is according to an incredibly long Kenneth Tainin profile in the New Yorker from like the late 70s. So, but, you know, there it's not, he's just like redoing movies again. And there is some humor and enjoyment in that. It's like, you know, I like it too, because I also really like Hitchcock movies. And to Adam's point, Hitchcock is funny and interesting. And there's a lot to work with camera wise and things to put on screen. But it's different from something like blazing saddles, which is referencing a lot of different movies, but adding some sort of commentary. There's not, not a lot revealed about the world or about Hitchcock in high anxiety. Yeah, I think that's really well put. I think this is where like maybe some bad habits form that kind of carry over into the 90s a little bit. But again, like, it's still better than most of what you would watch even from that year. I didn't have a bad time. Yeah, it's not a bad time. Dr. Lowell, man. He only makes two films as a, as a director in the 1980s. But there are two of the most important movies that he ever made. 1981's History of the World, part one comes next, which I think is a bit of nostalgia bait for people that are already-- Sure. Adam, what is your read on History of the World? I love The Dorsen Welles, isn't it? That's really funny. And I love the Spanish Inquisition scene, which I think is one of the best set pieces in any of his movies, turning the Spanish Inquisition into the Esther Williams swimming thing, and the nuns and Brooks himself is having so much fun. And I like to think of him in that scene. That's one of the scenes I like thinking when I think about him as a performer. But it also uses the anthology format well. Silent movie is making fun of one era of films. But it's kind of relentless and monotonous. And high anxiety is disciplined in that it's making fun of Hitchcock, but the results vary. History of the World is great, because it's like, well, this one doesn't work. But there's another one coming along in about 10 minutes. So I don't think all the episodes are good. But the good ones are good. I find the Greek stuff pretty funny. I find the French Revolution stuff funny. The coming attractions for part two, one thing I've ever showed my kid is the Viking funeral. The Vikings take off their helmets, and they still have the horns on, which I just think is an A plus visual joke. It's not his best movie, but I can watch it. I think parts of it really funny. When do you think of it? I love it. I mean, maybe it's the nostalgia. Also, I think to Adam's point, like I was thinking about it and it's like blazing Saddle's works because the plot is really simple. But then when you get to like high anxiety, he's trying to do a really kind of complex storyline along with all of the like references and then it gets kind of like rough. It's like, what am I supposed to be paying attention to? Exactly. Like where it's like when it's really simple, you can hang all the jokes on and it works. And then here, he's like, there is maybe not any plot. I mean, I think there's a very thin plot. But then you just get to laugh because he gets to have fun with all of the parts of history. And still gets to make his like social satire, you know? Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, this is like a sentimental favorite for me. And it also because of what I saw it pretty early on in the run. And again, it's also bitty, right? You could only see, you know, parts of it. Yes. It's like a big thing. But yes, but I definitely saw this before I became aware of like people's history of the United States or whatever. You know, I just the idea that okay, like you are taught history one way in history books, but we can riff on it. We can have fun with it. We can do other. It's probably one of the first times I encountered it. Plus, yeah, it's kind of insightful in that way. You know, but if like if you're 10 and you haven't thought about that before, it definitely is insightful. And that's how I, you know, interacted with it. So I'm a big fan. I have a question that's kind of overarching. And I think it's going to get, we're going to get more into it when we get to space balls and further. But it comes up in a few of the other movies. How do you guys feel about how Mel Brooks handles homosexuality in terms of comedy? Um, I think it's fairly contemporary to its time, which is there's like a blend of fear around it that is also, there's like something subterranean that's like that desire is also real. You know, like he's a, he's a partner comedy person. And he knows that when you make a bond with someone that there is something there, but like men, if you were born in the 20th century, especially in the first half of the 20th century, a lot of parents were raising kids to fear that or to hate that. And so like this, this convulsion of like, well, if you're an artistic person, you're accepting an open-minded of all people, but there's this male anxiety about, it's often very, you know, it's often about men and men together. So I don't know, you think there are a lot of examples of it in this movie? No, I mean, actually this movie had kind of a good one where in the beginning, it's in the very beginning where he's like, there's the first homo sapien marriage followed by the first homosexual marriage was actually kind of being like, it's always been around. I was trying to like figure out, it's not as clear to me as like the racial stuff where you clearly know where what he's coming from. But I did, I did kind of feel like he was also sending up homophobia a lot. And we'll get into it maybe more with Robin Hood Men and Tides because it's way more prevalent than it was the 90s. But I still felt in that like he was maybe more making fun of people being homophobic. I mean, one of the hallmarks of his comedy is he doesn't hate anybody, you know, or if he is hating them, he's hating everyone equally. I think he kind of trained a generation of people to think that way that like everyone is worthy of parity, but no one deserves to be dismissed. You know, he certainly hasn't, he certainly hasn't been reclaimed in a progressive vein, right? There's no active reclaiming of them. The way that there are some filmmakers who aren't maybe male brooks, like other kinds of satirists, right? Like, you know, Paul Verhoeven, where people like, actually, you know, or they'll look at some other films and they'll go actually with brooks. There's kind of no actually. It just kind of is what it is. I think it's affectionate and regressive and childish and juvenile and not mean spirited, which is not the same thing as calling it particularly progressive or subversive or alternative. Like, I don't think people see these movies as acts of real identification or allyship. They're not, they're not trying to be. You know, yeah. And yet, I think that there is a sense that he's on the right side at the time and that never really changed, right? Like, people who are coming out against blazing saddles were usually like the fustier critics. Yeah. It wasn't really about the race parts, right? They were, they were coming out against like, this is gross. You've, you've debased the form of film by putting fart jokes in it. It wasn't even about what we would think they would be up in arms about. I did just want to cite briefly to be or not to be, which is a film that he starred in with Ann Bancroft, which is Alan Johnson directed the movie. I didn't revisit it for this, this conversation out of, I don't know if you've seen it recently, but it's the rare case of having a starring part in a movie that he didn't write or direct. Yeah, but what it has in it via him is affection for older movies, not just in that it's a remake. It's really affectionate for Lubitsch, right? It's for the original, but it's also not one, one hundred that's good as the Lubitsch to be or not to be, which is the problem. Like, the spirit is willing, but the film is, is this week. Yeah, it's, it's, now we're not a movie I would choose to remake if I had an option. It's interesting is like young Frankenstein is Frankenstein in so many ways, but just calling it the young Frankenstein and letting the characters inside of the movie acknowledged the story of Frankenstein in some way makes it feel different enough, whereas this just being a one to one remake of an all-time classic makes it a little bit less successful. So, a few years go by here and Space Balls comes. Now, Space Balls is really ten years after Star Wars and four years after Return of the Jedi. So, it has been fully subsumed into the mainstream culture and honestly, it's not starting to expire by any means, but it is settled. Like, it's settled business that this is like new cultural canon in America. And the long time goes by before he does it. And a lot of it is like pretty faithful to the story of Star Wars, you know, he is in that mode of just kind of retelling the story in some ways with different characters, with more, there's more gross out humor, there's more foul language, there's more ridiculousness. And yet, I think for at least among my friends, when I was a kid, this was very an iconic movie, a movie that we watched over and over again at sleepovers that phrases from the movie. I'm sorry, hello, my baby, hello, my darling, dancing alien, height of comedy to me, nothing, maybe even now, I was laughing hysterically, watching it like three days ago, especially because John Hurt came back. It's really, really good. That was explaining that to a four-year-old. I was like, okay, we fast-forwarded through that part to scary, but I did it. Yeah, I was just like, I don't know if I won. John Hurt's abdomen splitting open in front of my daughter. That was one where he was just interested in the dance. He was like, why is that guy dancing? Who was that guy? Two questions. Well, he's an alien. That's in the spirit of what is her legend. He really is your son. I love this movie. I think it was pretty flawed when I was looking at it through my 43-year-old eyes yesterday. I mean, I flawed. Well, it's like, it's similar to to "High anxiety," where I'm like, this is almost over-alliant on the source text. And it makes it a little bit less successful as a satire for me. I think the best stuff is stuff that Adam cited earlier, which is like the way that because it has some distance, it's able to look at the mass consumer culture that came up around Star Wars. It's really funny around that. The doing the joke about "Spaceballs 2" within "Spaceballs" is so funny. A good example of a movie where when Mel shows up in the movie, as yogurt or as the president, he's so funny. He's kind of like redoing his character and blazing saddles as the president. And yogurt is incredible. It's just so entertaining. But I don't know. There were a couple of moments where I was like zoned out a little bit, to be honest with you. It doesn't mean that I don't love "Spaceballs" and it isn't a personal favorite of mine. But up against stuff like young Frankenstein, it paled in comparison a bit. Well, I'd propose you because we've done this kind of subjective thing where I said it in like Marty Feldman and he asked me, it was like, how dare you? For me, the thing that carries "Spaceballs" is, he cast Bill Pullman before that was a thing. And I'm a Bill Pullman appreciator. He's sneaky case as one of the greater American actors in the last 30 years, at least judged by the good stuff. He's so funny. Doing Harrison Ford without impersonating him. There's one bit. I mean, we don't just want to do bits and none of us are funny impersonators. But there's Wendy's with the princess and he's like, she's like, aren't you close? The cold doesn't bother me. And then you just see him shiver a little bit. The line reading I've had in my head for like 40 years. I think having him and John Candy and to a slightly lesser extent, Joan Rivers in the same movie is kind of an amazing assembly. And Marannas, who was not long for Hollywood after that for a bunch of reasons. I mean, it's not his last performance or anything. But like, Marannas didn't get overexposed because of the choice he made to back away from making movies. He's hysterical in that. So I think to some of the. Yeah, the sat, tire is good in terms of what Star Wars became. Brooks always said he made that movie because his kids watch Star Wars on VHS over and over again. And that's why I think technology and VHS are so key to what's funny in the movie, like the when will then be now bit. I mean, Sean, Sean's probably right that it's flawed. But this is one of those where I'm playing my card of like, who cares? It's flawed. I mean, I can't imagine a time before I watched it. It's like a conduit to like me being seven years old. Yeah, it's like the naked gun to me. Like, is the naked gun flawed? Yeah, because it's just a a send up of a thing but without any real like, and this is kind of that too. And I'm like, I don't care, they're combing the desert. I know the giant comb is. They had a giant comb and then they gave the black guy a pick. That's one of the best moments that I'm going to be like, did you find, I think, we found shit. It's a point out. It's a PG movie. He uses his one fuck so well because it's so superfluous. Do you remember, do you watch, do you remember what it is? I just watched yesterday. What is it? I forget it. The whole movie, there's no f word and then right at the end when the spaceship is breaking down. Like, you have two minutes to get off and Rick Man is just like, oh, fuck, even in the future, nothing. words. And when you're a kid watching you to the sleepover, that word is like a detonation going off, like maybe not for a 10-year-old, but I was eight. I'm like, oh my god, they said that and I'm allowed to watch the movie because we were allowed to watch the movie because our parents probably didn't realize that there was an F word in it because it looks like Star Wars. Well, assholes is uttered like nine times in the film. Nine times, yes. Yeah. My parents are immigrants so they didn't care about that kind of stuff. They were like, oh, we're going to watch Basic Instinct. I was like, I'm nine. They did not care about that kind of stuff. This is just yeah, I'm sorry. I'm with I love it. I carry air. I babe. Also, and like, there's also random other bits. Like the Hell and My Baby is alien. There's the Vinny character. I'm like, is that Max Headroom? You know, like there's other kind of bits that are just like you, I didn't grasp them then, but now I look back and I'm like, oh, you were also playing off of other pop culture moments. Like we did a Star Wars draft a few months ago, which was quite controversial in many ways, but I can't remember. Spaceballs was not eligible in the main category. It was maybe eligible in the wild card like Star Wars related. I think it would have been. Yeah. But I mean, there's an argument that it's just one of the better Star Wars movies that has been made especially in recent years. I'm given a Mandalorian Grogo, which is both a testament to it being a good movie and also it being very Star Wars dependent. Yeah. You know, which is I'm kind of with Adam with like, who cares at some point, but I agree with you sitting through it. And it's not because my child was scared. I was just kind of like, okay, got a couple of movies to get through here. Let's, you know, let's keep it moving. I remember the jokes, but that's also true of any comedies that you've watched so many times. A million times. That's right. You know, that's part of it too. I'm sure that's a part of my experience or the word. I've just, I know what beats are coming around every corner. That movie was a big hit and also became an absolute VHS classic and four years go by before life stinks, which I had not seen. I had not, I had not seen it. I just saw it for the first time a week ago. And I don't know why it got past me. I guess I was eight when it came out. And so we're rushing out to the theater to see that one. My parents were obsessed. That's why we saw it. Now, we'll listen to speak on it. I mean, again, when I was eight, it's different, but I still think it, I think it holds up. I think it's like, I think he's playing pretty straight from Mel Brooks, which is kind of cool. It's a, it was an atom. We'll know this better. You guys will know this better. But I feel like there was just like a stretch of films that had a similar premise where I was like, what if a rich guy had to be poor? Like Brewster's Millions. Maybe it was one of them. Trading, trading places. Trading places. That's one thing I'm trading places. And I thought this one was uncharacteristically, like, had a real plot. It was like, had this real tenderness about a person discovering his humanity and like seeing what it's like to live, you know, how a lot of people live. I thought Leslie and Warren was incredible. And I even watching it last week, I was like, I still think this is, I think it holds up. I think it's a good movie. Maybe it's not a prototypical Mel Brooks movie. And so in that sense, I don't know how it falls in the canon because like, there's jokes, but not maybe to the like slapstick level of his normal films. Yeah. Well, looks up the slapping. The literal slapping part with the guy who thinks he's James John Paul Gatti. That's like the space to just moment. That part is really funny. What do you make of life stinks? It's an outlier. You know, it's not a parody. Although it's referencing like Frank Capra and certain, you know, clad, like, you know, the class commentary of certain scribble comedies. It's not, I mean, it might have been more interesting or not more interesting. I give it a bit more explicitly a 40s movie. Might have, you know, brought that out a little bit, like the movie I would compare it to not that much, but it's like the Cohen's making Hutsucker proxy, where they're like, this is about a different era of filmmaking and kind of values within filmmaking, which they're a lot less sincere about in Hutsucker about, you know, class and wealth and then Brooks. I mean, I think yes, he's right. Life stinks is very sincere. I think one thing that's really interesting though, sorry to cut you off out of my just have to say that I didn't know this at the time, but then now having known this, it really hit me hard because the Leslie and Warren character's whole thing is like her story is how she was a dancer and she married her husband and he left her and she gave up her career. And that's not exactly, but it mirrors the story of Mel Brooks and his first wife and like, yeah, I'm sure he was putting that in there for some sort of like Mia Colpa and that really like touches me. I don't know, okay, sorry, I'm a little. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, not to think about her in that one. Yeah, Leslie and Morgan wonderful in this movie and a very underrated actress in general, but that actually made me a little queasy knowing that, especially having watched the documentary. It's hard because he takes from so many people and then you don't want to compare him to anybody and you know, like the Cohen comparison is unfair, but the other comparison because it's a little more contemporary, like both versions of pennies from heaven, not the really recent machina, like that. They've heard it out here. It's been earned at Peter one, they're singing detective. I feel like that's what he's sort of kind of going for here. He wants it to kind of feel old, but then it's bound up in contemporary. Does this weird special effects ending with the cranes or the construction equipment fighting it just to use this word again. It's not super disciplined and I don't love him in it, you know, but I haven't watched it in a long time. I'm just trying to think of who would be an interesting Steve Martin. Steve Martin. Yeah. Steve Martin. Yeah. Steve Martin. I didn't see Martin made a lot of movies like this, "Dirty Run Scoundrels" is a kind of similar energy, like high concept, but more grounded execution. It's an interesting movie, especially because it's sandwiched between all of these like very clear parodies and we're going into the final two movies, which we can talk about maybe together, which is Robin Hood, Ben and Tite's and Dracula, dead and loving it. And they're very similar films that are working off of, you know, historical, literary ideas that have lots of movie adaptations that come before them. And so these movies are just gag machines. They're just blueprints for jokes. And in some cases, they're very clearly repeating the classic structure of the Bram Stoker novel. Or of the Robin Hood story, but in other cases, they're just kind of veering off and doing their own thing and doing like very contemporary comedy that maybe won't age as well too. We're like references to stuff that's in the culture that isn't going to be as long-lasting. That being said, like I said, I was 11 and 13 when these movies came out and I loved them. I thought they were so funny and so in their juvenileity, like that didn't really bother me at all. I purposefully not rewatched them for this conversation because what I don't want is to break the spell on these, but you did a pretty much the same thing. I'll tell you what, Robin Hood, Ben and Tite's still, it's fine. Yeah, it's dumb, but it's still like, I was like, I love this. I love the Richard Lewis's mull moving all over his face. Dave Chappelle is a star from his first 19 years old. Yeah, it's, and Kerry always was like to me, Tom Cruise, when I was at age very powerful because of Princess Bride and this, the Hey Abbott guy. There's just like, there's amazing, it's just, this still did it for me. I couldn't get through Dracula dead and loving it. I did try to like, faithfully to watch it and like, we're loving respect to my new friend Steven Weber, but I could not do it. I was like, I'm sorry, this is not working. Steven Weber, homies know. Well, yeah, I think we're close personal friends. That's awesome. Congrats. Wonderful man. You're way good either of these. Yeah, I rewatched both of them. Here's, here's my thing on Robin Hood, Ben and Tite's, which did have cultural significance to our generation. I just don't care about Robin Hood, just like the story in general. I like the, I like the broad idea. Politics, pro, made Marion seems fine. King John, definitely a herb, but like, I, you know, watched the Kevin Costner one. I didn't care about that at all. That's so boring. Brian Adams, you know, is great. Yeah, it is. And that one is a hot fox. Yeah. Yeah. That's a hot fox. Form it into my young sexuality was that hot fox Robin. But otherwise, it's just like, okay, he steals from the rich to give to the poor pro. That got me now. And there's a new one Hugh Jackman's doing it now. And I gotta like, we're gonna do a whole podcast. I just, I don't really, how many times do I gotta watch this? I support the idea and I'm out. So I was kind of bored. He's kind of the mom Donnie of his time, though. You know, you got to consider that. As I said, great politics. I like the idea of, do I need to do the iteration of one single? Yeah. It was your skin. So I was a little, I was a little bored. I'm recording Shirley after this. I'm more of a Princess bride in the, in the Caroleus fantasy parody. And then you see a lot of like the shadow puppets in the sword fight. Oh, we didn't even talk about awesome powers. A lot of my shires. Melbrook. And great point. And awesome powers. I was thinking. Just a few years later after these movies, what do you think of these two movies at them? So first of all, 70s Disney's Robin Hood, most off-sighted movie from people I know as a kind of like childhood. Like, oh, these characters are attractive. Like that, that is, that, that, that, that is, that is everybody. Yeah. We're 40 for those rocks. It got us. Yeah. But I think, I think that in tights is both good and bad because Prince of Thieves deserves it so much. Yeah. Because like, Prince of Thieves, I think when the worst kind of big hit Hollywood movies from the air, the nice Alan Rickman accepted because he's brilliant in that movie and was good in everything. But it's such a like awful, narcissistic, dreary movie and it has that horrible Brian Adam song. And like, it was like a hit kind of without people really wanting it to be. And like, Costner's a big star at that point. So I feel it deserves it. But it's also such a lousy movie that making fun of it relentlessly for two hours gets tiring. And he does bring other Robin Hoods into it, but not that many. Like, if there's a little bit of a nod to the Arrow Flynn one, which is one of my favorite movies ever, The Adventures of Robin Hood, my little embarrassing disclosure for this movie. And I remember from being a kid, he made Marion's song because Mel Brooks loved songs and we talked about, you know, song numbers. It's actually very pretty. The songs that she sings about with herself or Marion. I can still hum it in my head and I'm not that weird a person. So that says something that I still remember and her chastity belt is really funny too. I love that guy. And I love Amy Azbeck in general. I think she's really funny. Yeah, it could have been great if given more stuff like that. And he was married to genre and always is very, I mean, I agree with yassie. Kerry, I always great. He's a great light comedy star. And he's spoofing himself in princess bride. Here for sure. He's very enjoyable. It's hard not to like him doing that stick because he's actually good at it. You know, he's not just a good looking guy who's doing it. He can do it well. There's a lot of newer Mel Brooks stuff in here, right? Like you were saying like very contemporary jokes, like the homelone kid, the Reebok pumps. That's right. That's right. Also his own self-referential jokes are great too. Like when they make Dave Chappelle, the sheriff at the end and someone goes a black sheriff and he goes, why not? It worked in blazing saddles. It's good to be the king is back in this one. Like, you know, and I kind of like when he does, I just because I have a big Mel Brooks and I'm like, you deserve it. Go ahead and reference yourself. You're right. It's very, I find both these movies very charming Dracula is way junkier. But I also just like love Dracula movie. So I'm willing to forgive it a lot of stuff too, you know? Yeah. And I like those actors. I love, I can't remember the guy's name who was in Allie McBeal who plays. Oh, Peter McNichol. Yeah. Peter McNichol. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's great. Amy Azbeck is back in. Yes. And Mel Brooks is very funny in Dracula as well. Yeah. Um, but yeah, they're not as successful. So I argue the problem in that one is Leslie Nielsen. Because Leslie Nielsen had the magic powers working with the Zaz people like magic. How good he is in those movies when he kind of stepped away from them, which he did a few times because they're wrongfully accused, which isn't really a Zaz movie. And there's, um, what's it called? 2000, want a space? Travesty like Nielsen tried to become a little cottage industry of these things on his own. I just don't think that he's funny acting for Brooks. They did not, they didn't work out. He did a bunch of these. I mean, it's forgotten. He did spy hard. Oh, spy hard. He did wrongly accused, which was the fugitive one. He did repossessed, which was like an exorcist style one. He made a. I love that. I love that movie. Your eyes just let out. That would be assuming to the whole podcast. No, it has that bit where Jesse Venture and Mean Jean Ocarlyn show up at the end to commentate on the excerpt system like it's a WWF match. I think that's really funny. Senator. Okay. 11 movies. I mean, we also cited obviously huge hand and the elephant man in the fly as a producer and Francis, your beloved Francis. And along with all of his TV work, none of that, we're not talking about any of that. We're just talking about the 11 movies that he that he directed most of which he wrote or co-wrote. It sounds like our favorite. Me and Adam is young Frankenstein. I don't know where you guys stand on that. I don't know if it's easier to work from the bottom up for the top down or what? I'm not going to argue with young Frankenstein at one. If you want. My favorite is blazing saddles, but I couldn't understand why young Frankenstein is better. Okay. And then you would be blazing saddles. It comes in at number two circle significance. Yeah. And I think that they both play so to speak right now. You know, like, and I know you're you're going through this experience with the students at them. But, you know, maybe you can share this episode as part of your curriculum, you know, as some olds talk about why some of this stuff is funny and relevant and still works. That's what makes people laugh is here's why this is funny. And as long as they can illegally download it to watch it. I mean, this was candidly a concern I had about doing this podcast in general, which is just like people talking about what is funny as inherently awful. Sure. Having done many episodes of Thorough Watchables about funny movies, where you just remember that time, like that's all you do. But he holds so much weight in the culture in terms of influence that felt like we should do it. Okay. Young Frankenstein one blazing saddles too. Yeah. Number three. Now, I would assume that space balls is the most beloved. I would say that the producers is the most important. Better. What is the plus four? Well, it's a subjective act in which we're making Adam uncomfortable with having to categorize in this way. Let's give the one that won the Oscar for writing. Okay. Number three. Look at Lucas. He's way ahead of us. He already put the producers in a number three. It's as though he knew that Adam was going to say that. The good news is this list doesn't impact anyone's life. This will give Mel Brooks another 100 years of life. And also, we're going to add you when you feel bad. Imagine you talk that way about my film. When this list is published without context, it's going to be Yassie Salix. Mel Brooks would be using my Instagram. Yeah. That's not how Mel Brooks needs to know me. We know that won't be the case. And do we think we do we think we go with space balls at four just because we all seem okay with it? I think so. Yes. I think that makes sense. I think the hard work starts now. Okay. Five through 11 is very complicated. I guess history of the world. Part one. Yes. Right. It's got a lot of joyful moments. It's very well liked. And if you want to skip over a certain sequence that you don't like, you can do that while watching the movie, which is one of the ingenious aspects of its design. Anyone watch the TV show? The most recent one. Yeah. It's a little bit of it. It's great. Funny. And so many cameos. It's like you can't not like it. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny that he's IP when he worked off of IP for so long. All right. Six through 11. I'm, man, we just do it alphabetically. I kind of like Robin Hood. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. And I think that that is sentimentality operating for me. But you know what? I'm a part of this show. I like life's instincts better, but it's because it's such an outlayer. I don't know how it's supposed to be ranked, you know? Life's things will not be getting in the top six. Um, it's fine. Okay. Robin Hood. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go with Robin Hood out of respect to the very funny people who are who are in it. There's good performances in it. Yes. Oh, Tracy Oman. We didn't even mention Tracy Oman is in that. Yeah. This is a train. That's her name. Okay. All right. Amanda, since you don't love Robin Hood, but we put it at number six. What do you want at number seven? Let's see. Um, we've got, what's left? We've got 12 chairs, silent movie, high anxiety, Dracula, Dracula doesn't loving it, which is definitely not life. And life's things you want deadlost as well. So it's between silent movie, high anxiety and 12 chairs. You know, they all, they're all trying things with like varying levels of accomplishment, but none embarrassing and none that wildly funny. Um, so I don't. I'll eliminate silent movie. It can go later. And then between high anxiety and 12 chairs, because anxiety is more watchable than 12 chairs, because you it's hard. I think maybe being being seventh on a ringer podcast about Mel Brooks might peak literally two people's interest in watching the 12 chairs. I mean, also, I just like don't make movies about therapy ever, you know, we're done. Go to therapy. Don't make a movie about it. The end. I can't. I don't agree with that at all, but I, someone who treats movies as therapy. That's good. So then we'll say the 12 chairs at seven. We'll say high anxiety at eight. And then silent movie, Dracula doesn't loving it. And, and, you can put life so I think life is better than Dracula, don't let me know. We thought that you were putting those in order. I wasn't putting them in order. I was just saying their names. It's also more successful than silent movie in my opinion. Go ahead, Yossi, but do the final three. How would you like to go? I think I would do life stinks silent movie and then Dracula, don't loving it. There you go. Is life things better than silent movie? It has Paul Newman in it. Yeah, that's true. That's true. You're right. I could go either way. Okay, we can as long as Dracula dead loving it is 11. It is 11. I'm so sorry. Yeah, it does. But Dracula dead loving it has less set Anthony being hot. Like, I don't know if you guys recall that part. Adam, you remember that part? I do, but I haven't watched that movie since I was like 11 years old. It didn't save the film. It made me feel 11. I'm enormously them in the big jacket. It's like just really good. And James Khan is so hot. There's really amazing moments. Apologies to your childhood. Life stinks at 10. Yeah, you know, you know, you always call me a contrarian. I just happened to think for myself, which is a rare commodity this day and age. And so I think watch life stinks for yourself. You guys make your own decisions. Watch life stinks. Yeah. Yeah. Do you like to recount this ranking? Sure. At 11, Dracula dead and loving it at 10. Apologies to Yossi. Life stinks at nine. Silent movie. Eight high anxiety, seven, the 12 chairs, which Adam name it. And I hope you check out six Robin Hood men and tights. Five history of the world. Part one, four space balls, three, the producers, two blazing saddles and number one, young Frankenstein. Feel that we've done the work here. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Adam, where can we find you? In the city of Toronto. In the ringer in the New Republic, watching the day's horrible season unfold. I'm around. I'm always, I just seem to be around. Every month or so you guys try me out. You know, you're still there. I am. But, you know, I'd love love being here. That's lovely. That is not what we say to you. First of all, speaking of the J's, can you just take Boba's shed back? What the fuck, dude? What is this? - Yeah, sorry about that. You know what? As someone who is at game seven, I have a really brilliant insight. Can I share this on a ringer podcast? - Please. - When you can win the World Series, you should win the World Series. - Yeah. - When you're like one out of way from doing, you're like really six months later, this is what I think we should have done. I know at the time it seemed okay. We probably should have won the World Series. And then Boba's shed would have stayed. And Sean would be happier. And I would be happier. - If someone would have backed him. - No, it didn't. But you guys will be in Toronto and I look forward to seeing whatever you do there. - Yeah, we look forward to it too. - We do. - That's in the province of Ontario. - Yes. You can make me name all 50. Is this state any time? We live in Canada. - There are a lot of responses to that. To whether we would be able to name all the provinces and territories. - Adam, just, you know, I've been to Saskatchewan and Winnipeg, so. - That was Canada Bingo, that's Canada Bingo. You get to both of those places. - I get to Bingo. - No, I'm in Canada. - Could you guys probably? - We want Adam to like us. (laughing) - Thank you guys for thank you guys for having me on as always. - Thanks for being here. Y'all should work on me, find you. - You can find me like, you know, one day away from grippy socks in the Google Doc at all times, prepping for my podcast band playing on the Ringer podcast network. Give it a listen. - Wonderful, thanks guys to both of you. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh, Sarah Ready and Jamie. You catch for their production support on this episode later this week. It's finally time to talk about Steven Spielberg and Disclosure Day, which is his new film. We'll see you then. (upbeat music) - Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. 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