Meet Mike: Interview with the New NSAA President

It's about being competitive for the people that come to the resort, but beyond that there is tremendous opportunity for collaboration on almost everything else we do, which is why I think NSA is such an important organization because when you have that many issues that you really should be coming together on, I think it makes it easier for an operation like that, the flourish. You have tuned into pod Sam, the podcast channel of Sam Magazine, the voice of the mountain resort industry. In September, 2024, the National Ski Eries Association named Michael Ritesl as its new president and CEO. Unlike his predecessors, Ritesl doesn't come to the job with a background in resort operations. Rather, for 14 years, he was an attorney with San Francisco and Tahoe based firm Hancock, Rothert, and Bun Shopped, representing ski resorts in California and Nevada in litigation and risk management. Before a career pivot led him to the California Ski Industry Association, also known as Ski California, where he has served as president since 2015. Nearly 10 years later, the opportunity presented itself to serve the industry more broadly as the president and CEO of NSA. Sam Publisher Olivia Rowan and senior editor Katie Britton talked with Ritesl in late November 2024 to learn more about the skills and experiences he brings to his new role. The ski industry issues that matter most to him and his forecast for the future of snow sports. We'll start the conversation here with Sam, senior editor Katie Britton. That might be a good, a good jumping off point for us Mike. If you want to tell us a little bit about your pathway into the industry because it is different, right from the people who've held this job previously from you. Sure, yeah, I mean, I think the one thing about me for sure is that it all did start with skiing. I mean, I've been doing it since I was a little kid, you know, five years old, going a pair of alley, going on day trips. Every year of my life skiing was part of it. When I got to college, I went to USC in Southern California and not exactly, you know, skiing is hotbed. I remember like right when I got on campus, you know, you're walking through and they all the clubs and whatnot out there and swing up USC ski team. Oh, awesome. That sounds cool. So, you know, join that. I was the president slash captain, my junior and senior years. We added snowboarding. Then I went to law school at Davis closer to the mountains when skiing while I was in law school, of course. And yeah, I got two interviews out of law school. One was some really sure would have been totally boring law firm in all of alto and then Hancock ruthering bunch of which just happened to represent ski areas. And which, of course, I noticed right away, I'm sure I leveraged my love for skiing in that to bed helped. Got to end up getting a job there. When I was a summer associate, I spent the week or them a weekend with Fagan up there and had a blast and got an offer went to work there immediately assigned to the recreational products group. The products lab, the group did wreck products with Paul Rosalind, you know, representing binding manufacturers, things like that. But man, I had my eye on the Tahoe office from the beginning, like I was like, I want to go to Tahoe work for John represents skiers and didn't take much longer than two years. Somebody left Tahoe and John gave me a call is that you want to come up to Tahoe and I was like, yes, plan is all coming to fruition. I spent seven years in Soho, working with John represents ski areas and there was not a came back is because I met my now wife, Kristen and she was in San Francisco. She wasn't so quite ready to make the move to Tahoe. She was working in tech. And so I'm going to go back to San Francisco and continue working on ski stuff. And that's what I did. I mean, 2011, and I said, you know, maybe go back to San Francisco, but I told John I'm staying in the ski industry, I'm staying in the ski industry. 2013, yes, Dave Bird and I are at a bar in Park City. Dave mentioned something about Bob Roberts. He's got to be retiring soon, something along those lines. And I said, yeah, like light bulb kind of went off above my head. And Dave said, I'm like, that'd be a good job for you. And I said to myself, that would be a good job for me. And Ron Cohen, same thing we had a little chat about. I said, what do you think Ron if I went for that someday and he's like, you absolutely should. And so two years later, job comes available. In fact, I should back up to a really key moment. I had to fill in for John Fagan at a at the time, California ski industry association board meeting. At that board meeting, it just so happened that they were leading a discussion on what they were looking for and Bob Roberts successor. I sat there, I'm taking copious notes to probably look at me like, why the hell is the lawyer taking all these notes about this part of the board meeting with me and I was taking furious notes like, OK, this is too looking for a guy. Thanks interviewed NSA in 2015 and San Francisco and interviewed that morning and Andy worth of all people called me that afternoon to let me know that I got the job. And what, what were they, do you remember at the time where you checking boxes on some of the things and not others that you were able to fill in like were they looking for operator experience and you were able to say, but I have something else to offer. You know, I will I recall the job description, which I'll leave Ron Cohen wrote. And it was, it was a job description for someone that did not exist. So I wasn't, I did not feel as though I had to check every box. Let's just say that. And I knew there were some I probably couldn't check. I think I was, you know, I was interviewing up against people with operations experience, but I did use the fact that look, most of what I was doing as a lawyer was taking a deep dive. Into what operations had taken place, so whatever incident we were dealing with, you know, say, OK, what, what was done in these situations, what needed to be done, what should have been done. So I think I was able to leverage that, but there's so much more to this job. It was, you know, the public, the government relations piece of it is big. And while I didn't have direct experience with that, I mean. Most lawyers, I mean, most people in government are lawyers. So that was a pretty easy sell, I think that I could go to the Capitol and Sacramento, I could work with the forest service, you know, that wasn't too tough. And I, my writing sample I gave them was the one I did for the time Las Vegas ski and snowboard resort. Now Lee Canyon that when they had the avalanche there in 2005, there was a really bad investigation by the forest service. And getting them to admit that it was bad was the challenge. And so that was what my 29 page letter was trying to do was convinced them that they needed to pull their report from that. And that's exactly what they did, which is really hard to get to any government agency to admit they were wrong. So that was my, so I think that probably went, you know, a long way towards it. But, you know, I was told they did a nice job interviews. So they hired you. So obviously they thought there was something you were bringing to the table there. So looking at your, your new role, right, with NSA, I mean, I guess what would you say are the things from, from your background as a lawyer and as someone who has, has run a regional, you know, ski industry association, what, what does that allow you to bring to the role? I do think my skill set over the years has become really well rounded. I mean, I'm going to say this from Amy O'Ran when she gave a little speech at our board meeting a few was a few weeks ago. She was going, she was she actually got to talk about a few people, but she's not saved, saved the end for me. And she talked about, she's talking about everybody's super power, which I was super cool. She did a really good, kept a nice theme for things she was talking about. And she said mine, you know, in, you know, in so many words, when it was bringing people together. That I had a unique ability and I hadn't thought of it that way, which is funny that she's sort of more aware of myself, maybe than I was. But just, you know, I think that's a really important thing when you're at, when you're talking about an organization that it's a nonprofit, it's, it's not really judged on dollars and cents. So you have to keep the lights on and do that part of it, too. But it really, I think it's judged more on what you're able to accomplish with the people that are your members, your stakeholders, and then everybody else associated with the organization, like the sentiment of the organization needs to be hot. And I think I've always really prided myself on that is how to, you know, with ski California, it was how do I make this the best association possible. And that really is about bringing together, you know, first it starts with me, it starts with my board members, because they're really the most important ones. And then just branching that network out to everybody else to try to create this really well oiled machine that can get things done. That's challenging when that. But ski California, you know, I'm technically the only employee. So other than some contractors, my job is convincing people that have day jobs to get stuff done. For in the way you do that, as you convince them that what you're doing is a good thing. It's a beneficial thing for everybody. And I think I'll be able to do that NSA too. I think that, you know, the job's a little different for sure, leading a team versus being closer to a one-man show. But bringing everyone together for common goals and pushing forward to great results, I think, is that's the job. Bringing people together is a pretty spectacular superpower to bring to the table. That's solid. So you mentioned that there were some differences in the role between what you're doing now and what you will be doing for NSA. And I guess, what are some of those key functions of your new role? How do you see yourself? I'm principally responsible for everything in both the jobs, like that, the buck stops with me for sure. That's just the nature of having the role. But I think I had to do so much more on the day-to-day at ski California. Like I was, you know, I mean, I was responsible for something as, you know, testifying before the state legislature, but also for making sure that all the gold pass boxes were stuffed with swag and all of that. And then I got into back of my car and took it to the post office and that when we had Elmo that I packed my car and brought it all up there, it was setting things up. Like, you know, that was all part of the job. Obviously, at NSA, there's a team. And so doing all of that together and, you know, me learning to better obviously delegate and allow people to do their jobs and that's certainly going to be the focus as I start this is I'm going to listen and learn from the people that have been there. I mean, you know, they've been doing this a lot of them been doing this for a long time. So I'm not coming in to try to just start changing things like that's not at all when I want to do. I want to come in, learn from them, see where I can support everybody. You know, I've planned events every year. So I know that I can talk to the folks working on conferences and the shows and all of that to be able to add support there. And then when you talk about the group that handles government relations, I, you know, that's part of my day to day job. So I can easily have those conversations with those folks and how I can support them. And then even someone that handles admin and finances, that's exactly what I do here as well. So, you know, bringing all those pieces to the table, but doing it on a support level and strategic level versus having to always be, you know, coming into the office and going, oh, I got to reconcile the big statements today. So you're bringing a little different approach with you're going to for your family, stay where you're at and how you will split your time or create that work balance. You have two kids. Yep. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, I made a note for everyone right at the beginning of the process and interviewing me. I really said, I didn't put it out there as like a discussion. I said, if I'm going to do this, just know that I have to do it from where I am. My wife is a senior executive at the ninth largest wine company in the world. So, no, my county is kind of an important place for, to be for wine. And so, you know, that was, you know, her job is as or more important than mine. So, you know, needing to balance that first need there was extremely important. And, yeah, you know, my kids, that to be six and eight years old, you know, grandma's here, you know, 10 minutes away from us that I know it's a cliche to say it takes a village. But when you're when you're balancing two careers with kids, you want to do a lot of things. Having that support system here was really was really important in this is it is a work life balance. I mean, I obviously value my family a lot. So I knew what needed to happen with this. So that was something I, you know, provided the hiring committee first interview. So what does that look like on the, on the work side, Mike, in terms of you're going to be remote, but a lot of the team is based in Lakewood and obviously a lot of the job is time spent on the road out at regional shows and kind of the own events. So how do you see all of that playing out? Yeah, it's again, it really is a delicate balance. I mean, Kristen and I have been doing the balance already for a while. I mean, between what she has to do between what I have to do. I mean, even with, with this, you know, it's key California, I didn't just sit my office, you know, all, all year, there were places to go, things to do. There were other associations that I was a part of on boards for. So I had to to do that. So we already know it a little bit. I think the challenge from the travel side will be I have to go a little further. So there's that. Most of my travel was in California saved for NSA events, maybe asked of things. And then on the, for the office standpoint of it, you know, that is something I've really focused on is wanting to find a really good open communication line with everyone. I want people at the office to think that, you know, they're going to know where I am all the time. We actually already have a document that Kelly created tracking every week where everybody is. So we all know, you know, a lot of the NSA team travels as well, some work from home, things like that. So knowing where everybody is important, and I really want everyone to know that when I'm around, meaning whether I'm there or I'm here sitting in my California office, that I'm available, that if you need to, you know, if you think you can walk down that hallway to where I am in the office, then we can also do that virtually, whether it's this way where you want to have a face to face to me, you want to see me like we can do that, you know, as fast as you can walk down the hallway, obviously you can always pick up the phone text. I mean, I'm going to work on what that looks like and understanding that it doesn't necessarily look the same for everybody, you know, not everybody that's going to be comfortable with the same form of communication, so it's about finding out what that is. And you know, I think as a team, we'll all get very comfortable with it. I'm already feeling good, even the interactions I've had to date. And then obviously there's going to be plenty of times where I will be in Denver. We got the, we know the Western show for, I'll be with the team for a week at Palisades, and then not too long after that, I'll be with the team for a week in Vermont. So we're already going to be in mid February. I'll will have been to Denver a couple of times, but we will have all spent a decent amount of time together. My goal to be getting is really is, you know, listen, learn, and just really grow a good rapport with the team, like that's the 100% priority for probably the first, you know, I'd say at least six months, maybe more than a hundred days, more than a hundred. We're going to be in a hundred days in no time. So you are the first NSEA leader in a long time, who isn't from the East, and Kelly, you know, caled for Mount Snow, Michael Berry Hunter, and the early days. And so when was the last time you skied on some good old blue ice? Well, yeah, that, I am for sure a Western, the Western guy, I've been out here, I've been in California my entire life. And I will say though, Michael Berry, when he was running Kirkwood, is when he got the NSEA job. So yeah, I have been out east, however, and I have skied in the East. I have multiple shirts from ski the East. So I do say when I skied in the East, I did ski in better conditions than I tend to hear about. We got about, we had one time was there was in Mazda. We got about 10 inches of powder at Snow. That's just, that's not real. For all I know, for all I know, that is how the East skis and that, those are my expectations. So if you guys want to change those for me, I'm happy to check that out. First week of February in Vermont. For a while, every time we went west for the Western show, our more Eastern centric crew felt like we would bring the, we'd bring the crap with us for a few years, that was like just rain and ice in the west when we would go west. And I do that sometimes, I feel, I feel like I've gone to, like, I mean, there's how I've been to steamboat. It talks about champagne powder. I've never skied it there. I'm like, you're going to go up just its groomers and nothing, I'm like, what's going on? Where is this? I hear about. So hopefully I can get some experience with that too. Awesome. Are you, are you planning to get around to the different regions like Midwest, Southwest, Southeast, all those fun places? No, I mean, eventually, here's the thing. I didn't take this job to be in it for a short period of time, you know, I told them when I interviewed that I'm, you know, I'm committed for the long term. So I just, you know, I'm going to do my best to give every where that I can. It's, you know, at some point in time, it's just not all gonna be, not all gonna be lumped together. Switching gears a little bit. What's the toughest challenge that you tackled Whiskey, California? If you, as you look back, what was, what was the biggest problem that you solved or challenged that you overcame? That's fine. I was looking back. I've been trying to go back here by email to get it nice and sorted and for the next person because I want to make sure I leave it all. You want to see the history. That's where a lot of it lies. And I was going through and I, and I don't know if I was thinking about this necessarily, but certainly some of the reviewed triggered a few memories in me. And I don't know, maybe we all forget what COVID was like or we don't want to remember what COVID was like. But I looked through the emails and I was looking through that. And man, I, it's making me recall how close we were in California to not be open. Obviously, we did a lot leading up to it. We were always paying attention to what's going on and how we were going to make sure we were open for the season and California kept doing this thing where they were releasing these guidance documents for various industries or activities. And we weren't in there. And I said, well, we need one of these. We need to be part of whether it's just outdoor recreation or our own, whatever it may be. We've got to find our way into this. Or we're going to come up to the ski season and they're going to look at us and say, well, you guys can't open. You don't have any of this stuff. So that challenge was was pretty big. And we got this group of people together of our folk. They could really help us. And I just remember I was at a friend's house in San Point, Idaho. And we were trying to, we had to zoom there with like the California Department of Public Health. We had our folks on there. They wouldn't give us their proposed documents in advance of the meeting. This is the day before Thanksgiving. I just remember we're looking at the screen because they kept holding the documents up. And Ron Cohen and I are like, every time I could just see him, he's looking and trying to take notes on exactly what they were going to be proposing. And then they were telling us what the challenges were that they saw with us. And I, you know, I'm upstairs in this loft in Idaho with a sling on my shoulder because I was, I had just had shoulder surgery. When I'm doing this, Ron and we're, we're on like a hall just trying to type out like what we thought it could be, what we thought our guidance could look like. And then we end up sending it to them and kind of crossing our fingers that they would listen to us. And then I got on a call a couple days after that with like this giant group of people of like restaurant associates, all these huge groups. And I didn't really understand what the, how it was going to go, like how that, it was just a big giant zoom, you know, we got, look on the screen, how many boxes do you have? And then we have the, like the head, you know, of the Department of Public Health who's like coming up with the guidance. And I just, in the early autumn, the thing I just raised my hand and I was able to give it the pitch about skiing, if you will. And then I sent an email to that group afterwards saying, oh, you know, we talked about this skiing and whatnot. And then the next day I go and I get my sling off for the first time and I walk out the doctor's office and the governor's office calls me and they say, you're going to get to be open. And we were about to head into a shelter in place in California. You're going to get to be open in the shelter in place. He's like, this is not, we're not going to change this. This is, this is in, in writing, all good. And then they said, we're going to have to put two spots between people on chair lifts because that's like, how do you do that on anything but anything for bigger? Like, what do you do on a triple? Is everyone after ride by themselves? Like, I mean, it was, so we got a couple of things we really needed. I remember texting our, our little group. The first response back, I can, it was, let's just say it was something along the lines of F. Yeah. And a lot of like holy crap, how did we get this done? Because it just, it seemed very dire. And we were very concerned. And I'll, I'll quote Tim Kohie leading up to that afterwards, he said something along the lines of up until that point, Mike had faced a lot of challenges. But this was fourth in goal with two seconds left in the Super Bowl. And we threw a touchdown. So that was kind of, so I'll always feel good about that one. I love so many things that we did here. But that one from the standpoint of what the implications could have been, you know, not opening was just not in the cards. Just wasn't gonna let that happen. That's, that's a good story. And that is a, yeah, that sounds like it tested all of your skills. You knew you had and some you learned that you didn't know you had. So yeah, I think that was, I would say that about a lot of people during COVID, we learned we had a, another gear. Because we had to, we had to adjust. So yeah. But we have put it all in a box over here. So totally. I know. Let's, yeah, let's keep that away. And yeah, you're right on the adaptation thing. I think it's become the narrative of our industry with other topics too. We just, we, we adapt. That's what we do. Like we have to do it on a daily basis. So, well, and it's good that you want your skills. They've cited as your ability to bring people together because I think that is truly the single biggest reason this industry survived is because we came together. And those huddles we did every morning morning were just crazy. How everybody, there's some calls where you just had every major competitor together discussing only how do we do this together. And I think that's unique for this industry. And that would excite me in your role is that we already know that that can happen when, when we need it. That's why I feel about safety because I mean, we have to talk about that at all, but that's such a huge component of what I've done here, what I care about when I think is important for us. And that, you know, we, that is an area where we all should, and generally speaking, I think do, you know, come together because it doesn't have to be that much different, you know, resort to resort region to region, whatever it may be. You know, we're all in that, we're all, we're all searching for the same thing and hoping for the same thing when it comes to that. So, I mean, it really is for us as an industry. It's about being competitive for the people that come to the resort, but beyond that, there is tremendous opportunity for collaboration on almost everything else we do, which is why I think NSA is such an important organization because when you have that many issues that you really should be coming together on, I think it makes it easier for an operation like that to flourish. Let's, let's chat about safety for a second. We covered the digital rollout of the Mountain Safety Guide in Ski California. And that's been a, I mean, it's been really widely adopted. Other regions have taken it on. And I know it was a really key project for you. So, how do you see the conversation around safety? How do you see yourself carrying that into NSA? Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a great base there already. Like, is it is such a key thing? I just, you know, I hope that my perspective on it just can help us continue to push the industry forward. And in nutshell, I think that points really the job too, pushing the industry forward. You know, I, I did that somewhat relentlessly in California, like I tried, you know, didn't have to step back very often was always usually able to push forward. And I think that's, it's a, it's a, I think a much bigger challenge on a national level because it is easier when you're in a specific region, you're like, you can all get behind very common things. And obviously, there's less common things across the entire country or certainly areas where even with the Mountain Safety Guide, when, when offering it to the other state associations and regions, I said, hey, we know there's going to be some differences here. Like, you know, Michigan didn't include our section on, you know, deep snow and avalanche safety because it just isn't that relevant. You know, I think what I hope I can bring is that, you know, I am very passionate about safety. And I, I, I just know even where that comes from, frankly, I mean, obviously being a lawyer, there's a piece of that where you see, you see a lot of things that you, for not to see again. But then you can say that for ski patrol, I mean, they see things that you don't want to see again. So there should always be a drive behind that. I really do want to just challenge myself, the idea, okay, well, I was able to bring X number of resorts together to support this particular initiative. Now it's a lot more. What can we do with that group? Or, or do we just support the regionalization of things and say, this works best over here, this works best over there. You know, you have to probably make decisions about whether things should be a national platform versus a regional one. And I think that's something I'll have to really get into my, my hands. You can't always bring everything together under the same set of goals or principles because they're just not going to work everywhere. And then there's some things that are. And so we just got to really cheer out with those are. I think it's an interesting idea, right, recognizing that, you know, you're a national organization, but within the nation, there are different needs. needs and considerations that require some flexibility. Adaptability, you mentioned adaptability is sort of a key skill to carry the industry forward. Kelly, when she was in the role, she talked a lot about diversity equity and inclusion is something that was important to her and pushing forward on that, helping get the education foundation started and supporting members education. And I guess for you, what are some of the things that are that you're passionate about, that when you think about pushing the industry forward, what does that mean for you? That's a good question. I mean, one thing I think, some of that stuff I believe will manifest itself a bit as I think, sort of what's in my head and, you know, the passions that I do have will, I think the opportunities will sort of, I think come in front of me is like, oh, that's a place where we can move this forward because I really don't want to come, I'm trying to come in without too many preconceived notions of what can be done because I don't want to have this idea that I'm going to come in and do this and it turns out that that doesn't work for everybody. So that's, now I got to put that aside. I got maybe some seeds planted and we'll see which ones think that they need to grow. I mean, I really do appreciate that that Kelly did those things, like I think those are great pieces to work with going forward. I mean, growth fits into that a lot. I think growth is one area where, you know, here's some people talk about it. But what does that really mean? Again, that's, is it national? Is that regional? The marketing campaign in Utah is going to be different than the marketing campaign in West Virginia, like getting people to ski and ride. Like it's very different. But I do think that ultimately the one thing we have to kind of get people to wrap around is that why do we all like this? Why do we all love skiing and riding? Like what is it about that? And I think most of it is once you get hooked into it and do it, you continue to want to do it more. Like if you can't get people to like that, you can't move people from over here to where they see this for, they see the mountains, they see friends, they see skis, they see, you know, if you can't get them from where they just see it to where they're passionate about it, like that's, the gap we have to work on. Like we have the people all there, but we got to get them over to that spot. And that's where I think I do kind of clearly care about the diversity of the sport and that you got to look at like what the country is, right? Like, well, who are we? Obviously in California, you know, we were more immediately exposed to a very diverse population base to begin with. But I think we should all know that like that's not just happening in California, like the rest of the country. Every single year or however long we want to look into the future is going to become more diverse and that we can't be in industry that's as welcoming as possible to that diverse community out there. Not only are we not bringing more diverse groups into the sport, but we're not helping the business case for running skier. If you want to grow, that means you got to bring in more people that want to do this. Well, why would you limit yourself to certain types of people? So figure out ways to include everybody. Let's not kid ourselves, not everyone's going to fall in love, the skiing or riding. Growth is a really interesting, you know, because I think it is proving a bit of a head scratcher and that, you know, we've had these record breaking skier visit years and yet, you know, we're seeing a drop off year over year in the number of lessons people are taking and the average age of our visitor is climbing each year. You know, I think we've been losing some of our share of like under 25 participants rights. There is these competing demands. On the one hand, skier visits, that's good growth. On the other hand, we have to retain people. We've got to get them to come back. We can't just rely on the people we already have. The data is showing a lack of future proofing in new people and to what you were just saying, like, how do we future proof us so that we have an influx of new people in it. You see that season past being the main way in now and a lot of focus on that as the past is the only way in and then then running barriers around parking and parking reservations and capacity management and so we're doing all these things we have to expect skier record skier visitation, but it's also eroding this idea of growth to Katie's point. It's a head scratcher. Have you obviously given some thought, have given any thought to how that might be applied to your new role? I think a research in data is a really important piece of all of this. I mean, I really want to look into is how much more can we do for research and data standpoint as a national association to inform everybody? We're seeing this in the numbers. We're seeing that in the numbers and we're going, oh, that's interesting. Well, we have to figure out why. We're going to ask ourselves, why is that happening? So can NSA be that organization that goes out there and helps to answer the why question? Because the other stuff that Olivia, you were sort of mentioning, to me, is more of the nitty-gritty on the ground stuff. NSA is not going to influence parking operations. That's what happens at a particular resort from a whole host of reasons, whether it's how often people are coming there, what days they're coming there, how much space do you have for parsing those kind of things. Those little details need to be figured out whether that be even as granular as the resort itself or, again, the regionality piece of it. Trying to come up with these solutions on growth. They work for everybody. I don't know that that's really, I don't know that's NSA's role to just grow the entire sport across the country. That's, I think, a bigger lift. But helping answer those questions about the why, why about youth? Why do people ski five days a year now when it was more like 15? Those are the questions that we have to answer. I think we do need to do a better job with the people that are entering the sport. If you're highly coveting that season, that season-pass product is what resorts think is so important. Because it is. It's become a really great tool to spread that revenue out. I mean, there's a reason why everybody doesn't. But if that's what you're doing, I guess the ultimate goal for everybody is getting people on to that product. You're trying to be more people on to that product. Well, if you create, make it hard for them to even get into the sport with expensive tickets and whatnot, you're not going to get over there. That's, I think, where it shows how every ski area is important. The ski areas that create season-pass holders, whether they be ones at local resorts, whether they be at the larger resorts, the ones that have multi-resort. Every resort is responsible for lifting those people to become long-time skiers, people that do ski more often. So how do we figure out where we do that on the very basic level of bringing them into the sport? I mean, I love the concept of just making that a heck of a lot cheaper. Because I've seen that from my perspective. I have two kids I've brought through ski school just very recently. And I know how much it costs me. And I know that I've got a much easier path than most people to get them there. And not to mention the fact that I'm coming in already like 110% committed to doing it. If they hated it, I'd still be 100% committed. This isn't, frankly, an endless conversation. I could talk about it for a long time. But it just goes to show the challenges that we do have as an industry. And if we can just find ways to making things easier for people, think about the way we've done with buying things. We've made it easier to buy things. You know, people do, and it's easier to buy things. They buy more stuff. Yeah. So make skiing easier and hopefully people will do it more. You talked a bit about the advocacy work you did on the state level with ski California. And advocacy is a big part of a key sort of service that NSA provides to the industry. And obviously there's a change in administration coming. Right. Trump is going to be back in office. And that will inevitably mean policy changes across climate, immigration, labor, a whole bunch of other areas that are critical to our industry, right? Public lands, taxes. So I guess what advocacy issues or, you know, opportunities but what opportunities do you see on the advocacy and the federal advocacy level? Yeah. And this is interesting, obviously, that this change over is happening right as I'm taking over. So I'm going to have to basically, you know, change the mental gears in some ways, because it is, it is a different animal. NSA is also built on being prepared to be whatever is in, you know, the White House or in Congress. I mean, we have to be an organization that can function well, no matter who's there. I mean, it really is going to be about challenges and opportunities. And sometimes that means whatever you have been doing, they might flip from an opportunity before that's now a challenge and vice versa. Obviously, I think climate is one of those, you know, I mean, let's just be honest. I mean, Trump generally talks openly about rolling back those types of policies. And we've pretty well established it with our industry that that sustainability and climate change solutions are extremely important to us. And I don't think that any administration is going to change that because that's just a huge priority. for us. It might make it more difficult to do certain things. It should not change the way that we are doing things and the things that we're talking about, because we still need to work with different groups to help push those things forward. You know, from a regulatory standpoint, I could certainly see that, you know, be regulations also a bit of a priority of this likely administration and also past when he was there previously. And that can be better for us in some ways that can really help us do things. I mean, even sometimes from a climate perspective, there's things that get in the way of climate solutions that, when there's too much regulation, employee housing is a really important thing. And you can even look at that from a net positive on climate that you aren't, you know, having people drive from all over the place to get to the resorts to work there. We make it a real challenge here to build new housing. Like, I think our resorts would do it if it wasn't so difficult. And it almost doesn't even pencil out to make any sense. And so that's another problem we have. So sometimes getting rid of the, something getting rid of the red tape can help. We'll call it the green tape for that kind of better term. The NSA team is, you know, Geraldine and Dave and Grant, like they're fully prepared for whatever, you know, the administration throws at us and we will deal with it as it comes. We'll continue to work with, you know, our partnerships with the Forest Service. It's a great one. We do, we do a great job of keeping it strong. I'd say, you know, if there's a legacy that Geraldine has, it's for sure that her relationship with the Forest Service has been just amazing. Because, you know, government and business don't always get along, but we find a way. Yeah, and beyond that, I mean, obviously, it's an area I'm comfortable with. I mean, even in California, you know, I went to DC many times and worked on the federal level, so I understand how that works too. So it's something I'm certainly excited about and I know we've got a great team in NSA. And who are your mentors? Who are the ones that have influenced your decisions and your insights? I mean, as far as people go, like, you know, I, John Fagan, certainly like a very high level one for me in terms of how much time I've spent with him. You know, we started working together. We really started working together right when I, as a, as a lawyer, it didn't take me going to Tahoe, like, there was a very big case at then Squaw Valley that was a monster case that he helped bring me, bring me in on that we started working together early. So I got to really learn from him. I think of three people in particular that just had very different ways of doing things. They had different ways of how they would support you as well. And I think I learned from them just how to be well-rounded, like, being like, I can't just be like this guy or like this one. I had to actually figure out ways to do things that would really work for multiple people. You know, and my, my hope, of course, is that that's going to translate itself to, to NSA as well. And then I've got a team of people that I, you can't support everybody in the same way. You have to learn that they have different things that will help them move forward. You know, and I've had, you know, I guess I'll call them mentors. We most call them bosses. Sometimes they just wear a certain way. And so you learn how to deal with them. And and that's good. But they do at least teach you things that you can take with you to become something more well-rounded yourself. I mean, John's the one I want. I think I'd mentioned by name and that, you know, he just was there the whole time when I applied for this, this job, you know, the ski California job, you know, I was working with him at the time. I was a valuable piece of his team. And someone even asked in the middle of my interview, how does John Fagan feel about this? And likely they'd already talked to him and the person went, I think it might have been Sally Helms said, oh no, John, John fully supports Mike in this role. And so that meant a lot to me because that was like, like, John was essentially going to be subtracting a little bit, potentially in his mind. But he didn't care because he cared about me. And that was, that was really important. You know, my wife's a mentor and that like, I talked to her all the time about, hey, this happened or working on this or, you know, what do you think about that? Like having that bounce things off of, I mean, I'm sure she's made me from doing a number of stupid things. So that would make her that would make sure a good mentor. And our readers might want to know if you have any ideas around increasing the value of membership. That's going to be a, that's a theme that will never go away. I believe it's a really important aspect of it. Making not only making people realize the value of NSA, but helping everybody, all the skiers understand the value of their competitors, frankly, like the value of having a wealthy thriving industry from the smallest skieries to the largest skieries, that is beneficial for everybody. You know, I remember John Rice told me some time ago, we were talking about, you know, having these right down the street from them. And people would look at it like, oh, you know, you guys all compete and whatnot. And he's like, well, I can come to find out when they're doing well. So are we? So there's got to be something there that we aren't just like competing to make sure someone else isn't doing well. Because the way our industry works, like we tend to do well together. And that obviously is regionally sometimes. And you know, the reason for that, of course, it's snow. I'm in the rusty Gregory camp of like snow is the most important thing. He started people asking about the economy. How does the economy going to affect the skiers and riders? I'm like, well, I think I'd agree with him. I think it has a much smaller effect. If you get people passionate about skiing, and they don't have a they have less money, they're going to find that little pocket of their less money to buy a season pass. Because you get rid of skiing from your life if it's become a part of it. And let's just say like that piece of money is much smaller than like the part of you it takes away to not have it. And I think people realize that again, we just have to get them there. You'll see Mike on the road at upcoming NSA shows and can find this interview in print in the January issue of Sam and online at saminfo.com. Like, subscribe and stay in touch at www.saminfo.com. The Pod Sam theme music is by break master cylinder. Thank you for tuning in to podsam.